 Hi, welcome to the All Things LGBTQ Interview Show, where we interview LGBTQ guests who are making important contributions to our communities. All Things LGBTQ is taped at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which we recognize as being unceded indigenous land. Thanks for joining us and enjoy the show. Hi, everybody. I'm here with a stellar group of interviewees, Julie Enzer, Shromona Mandel, and Cheryl Clark. And we're here to celebrate the publication of this wonderful issue of Sinister Wisdom, a tribute to conditions, a wonderful lesbian feminist publication that was put out in beginning in 1976. And you have 17 issues, very impressive. So these are the three editors of this volume, and we're here to talk about it and celebrate it and promote it. So before we introduce our interviewees, let me turn to Julie and ask her how viewers can get this volume, and tell us a little about Sinister Wisdom, if you would. Great. Thanks so much. And Sinister Wisdom is the longest continuously publishing lesbian literary journal we've been publishing since 1976. Right now we do four issues a year, one every quarter. The issue is available to anyone who subscribes to Sinister Wisdom starting today. We'll send it out. Subscriptions are $38 for one year, $62 for two years that's in the United States. A little bit more expensive for our comrades outside of the United States because of how much postage is these days. Folks can also order, and people can subscribe at SinisterWisdom.org slash subscribe. People can also order this individual issue at SinisterWisdom.org slash sw123 that SinisterWisdom.org slash sw123. The issue is $14 and then we charge what our actual postage cost is, which is I believe at this moment $3.25 to ship it media mail through the mail. And if people have questions you're welcome to email me Julie at SinisterWisdom.org and I can provide more information. All right well let's start with the woman who has just spoken. Julie Enzer is an editor of Sinister Wisdom. She's a scholar and a poet. Her scholarship is an intersection of U.S. history and literature with particular attention to 20th century U.S. feminist and lesbian histories, literatures, and cultures. By examining lesbian print culture with the tools of history and literary studies, she reconsiders histories of the women's liberation movement and gay liberation. This is a fascinating field. Her book transcript, A Fine Bind, Lesbian Feminist Publishing from 1969 through 2009, tells stories of a dozen lesbian feminist publishers to consider the meaning of the theoretical and political formations of lesbian feminism, separatism, and cultural feminism. We read about her work at www.JulieEnzer.com and Julie came on our show, audience members may recall, 11 months ago in which she talked about this fabulous manuscript that we're all waiting for. I can't wait, you know, I watch your interview again and again, I just can't wait to read it. So, let's move to our other panelists. Sharona Mandel is an American Studies master's candidate at Brown University and you're soon to finish that degree, is that right? You received your BA in sociology and social and cultural analysis from New York University and we were talking yesterday and I said I had gone to school in New York, you had too. You're probably a little more timely of the whole experience. They are applying to PhDs to pursue a project investigating the cultural production of Indian American Hindu elite women. This is so fascinating, Sharona. I can't, if you have a thesis, I'd love to read it. Are you writing a thesis? I wrote an undergrad thesis and I'm in my capstone class, so something will be coming out soon. That's great. When I got my MA, I chose the exam instead of the thesis, I have to procrastinate, which was my custom as an academic. Right. You aim to contribute to a body of scholarship working to dismantle global Hindu nationalism. That is really important work, I think. You can also find Sharona reading and writing with sinister wisdom, a multicultural lesbian literary and art journal of making zines and of making zines with student organizers. Welcome, Sharona. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you. Cheryl Clark, who needs no introduction for many of us, is a Black lesbian feminist poet and author of six books of poetry. She co-edited, edited to be left with a body, a literary publication of the AIDS Project Los Angeles for men of color who have sex with men, was Stephen Fullwood in 2008. Thanks to Julia Ernzer, present company, readers may access a digitalized version of her work, Narratives at the Lesbian Poetry Archive. Let me just have a little show and tell. I have a early, oh, humid pitch. I have an early, I have a firebrand edition of this wonderful volume that I have read for many years. Now I've lost track with my, in 2018, Cheryl co-edited, co-edited Dump Trump, Legacies of Resistance, a special issue of sinister wisdom with Morgan Grenwald, Stevie Jones, and Red Washburn. That's a great title, but it's out of print now. Is that right? Oh, sad. Yes it is, but it is available as an e-book at the Sinister Wisdom website. You can search for it. Good. Are you going to eventually digitalize all the sinister wisdom issues? Yes, eventually they'll all be digital as PDFs and available for free. Great, because I've been just reading old issues of conditions that I don't own, and it's a great, you know, in fact, in our conversation we'll put up the chiron about where you can access the old issues of conditions, but we digress. Since 2013, Cheryl has been one of the co-organizers of the annual Hobart Festival of Women Writers. This is so exciting. I had no idea you were doing this. This is in Hobart, New York, the book village of the Catskills, where her partner Barbara Beliet, Belie, and she operate the Blenheim Hill New and Used Bookshop. Y'all come visit, you know, I was just in Kingston, New York over the summer. Is that near there? If I'd known, we would have come. An hour north. Really, we would have, you know, we would have made that trip. I'm a false book buyer. Oh, and I bet you have great holdings too. We do. All right, welcome everyone again. This is very good to have you here. Now, let's talk about the issue. You'll hear a little more from me, but then I'm hoping our panelists will talk a little. Sinister Wisdom 123 researches back 43 years to the beginnings of conditions, a feminist magazine of writing for women with an emphasis on writing for lesbians. Founded by Ellie Balkan, Jan Clausen, Irina Klepvich, and Rema Shore in 1977. And let me just throw in my own autobiography. I moved to Boston in 1979 and belonged to the collective of the second wave, which was also a feminist magazine, but five of the six collective members of the lesbian. And so it was my ticket into this wonderful explosion of lesbian print culture and these women figured prominently. And so did you, Cheryl. I was saying earlier to your co-panelists that every poetry reading I went to, you were there reading, and you're such an important part of that history, Cheryl. So, thank you. Thank you. All right. I keep digressing. This issue honors one of the signal publication of the late women in print movement, a time of prodigious writing, organizing and creating when women seize the time and the means for our own revolution in letters. Let me just take a moment to quibble because I think the women in print movement is still alive. It's being digitized and maybe it's just nostalgia. But according to this... I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, my heart sort of skipped a beat when I saw the late women in print movement. Okay. Paying tribute to conditions as one of the new number of U.S. lesbian feminist publications which asserted for 13 years recognizes the words of Jamie Harker and Cecilia Contrafar that books could be revolutionary, that language could remake the world, and that writing mattered in a profound way. I think it still matters in a profound way. I'm a true believer. But I have some questions for our panelists. The first is, how did this issue come together? I'll start with that. How did you happen to do it? I mean, there's a little conversation in the beginning of the issue about Cheryl and Julie discovering all the boxes in New Jersey. How long ago? Oh, this was more than 10 years ago. Julie came to my... Well, she tells the story, but she drove to my house in Jersey City. She drove from Washington or Maryland. Well, anyway, same difference. And she was insistent upon taking conditions under her wing. And she did. I had had it in storage. I don't know how long. A long time. A long time since a long time. 1992, probably. And you were paying for storage all those years? Yes, I was. It wasn't that much. And so we packed them up and she took them. And she sent them at her own expense to libraries all over the country. So she had a commitment to conditions for so long. And it was her idea to do a tribute issue. And you were involved because you were an editor. You were the custodian of the actual law. Yes, but also I was on the board of Sinister Wisdom. So she could just reach out and command that I help her. Shwamona, how did you get involved? I found out about Sinister Wisdom when they were advertising the Asian Muslims issue and at the Asian American Lit Fest in 2019. And I missed the deadline for submissions. So I decided I just emailed Julie and asked to get involved as an intern. And in 2020 January, I joined as an intern and Julie had this project with the conditions archive in her head. And we talked about it and after digitizing one copy of Sinister Wisdom, I said I want to do this. I want to dig into the archives with you all. So I was able to join and start this amazing project. That's great. So how long has it been in process? Many years from when you unpacked all the volumes. But when you focused, when Julie, I guess, decided to have an issue, what was the timeframe between that decision and the publication? Which is recent. So I just want to add one other piece of the genesis because I completely cribbed the structure for what eventually became the issue that we have now from E.G. Crichton, who was the art director of the journal Outlook, which published from 1989 until 1993. And E.G. did a similar sort of archival project paying tribute to Outlook in San Francisco and did a museum exhibition and another issue of Outlook. And she recruited younger people who had necessarily even been born when Outlook was published to respond to each of the issues of Outlook that were published. And I learned about this at the Queer History Conference in June of 2017. So that, like, and I remember sitting in the conference and listening to the panel and saying, like, this is what we should do for conditions. It was so clear to me that this was like the structure. It was like the queer revelation. And so then I, like, knew the structure. I came to Sheryl. Shremona appeared to us. And it was like oceans, oceans, eight or nine, whatever it was, the women, like the whole band was together and now we could go do it. But, you know, like, most issues take a good two or three years from an idea to actually having the physical book. This has been about five. Very impressive. So let's talk about the structure. You were able to elicit contributions from all the original contributors. That's an accomplishment in itself. Did you have trouble finding people or? All the original editors. Exactly. Sorry. Good correction. Yes. All the original editors. How did you find them? Sheryl? Well, they're still alive. No kidding. We found many of the editors. We didn't find them all. Some of them didn't want to write. But the ones we found did, obviously. So we got something from the four founding editors, each of the four founding editors. Julie and Shremona did an interview with Irana Klepfitz. Ellie Balken submitted some archival material. And Rima Shor and Jan Klosson wrote essays. I love those essays. We had their presence in our tribute. We didn't want to not have them in there. Well, it was so important. And just as an aside, when I was looking up Shremona for the show, I googled her and stumbled upon your interview with Irana Klepfitz, which I immediately watched. It's a fabulous interview. And the condensation in the issue is good, but I encourage viewers to look up Shremona and you'll find it on Google. I mean, I loved her what you condensed of her piece because it's so optimistic about making change and that you don't need a hundred people that used to, as started with the three of you and you produce this great publication. But you could have two another pioneer that I know says you can have two or three people on the street corner and that'll begin a movement. So I love the optimism in that interview. So we talked about, well, not only did you have contributors to each of the issue. You had respondents. You had 17 respondents, uh, including Cheryl and Shremona. No, Cheryl wrote an obituary, right? And yeah, I want to ask about that inclusion too. But how did you, how did you get these contributors, these respondents, and what made you, what was your principle of selection? That was Julie, Cheryl and I putting our brains together, pulling from the lesbians we knew. Yeah, it was, it was actually fun reaching out to different people. Julie knows everyone. She knows a lot of people. That was good. That's great. I mean, you really have an arrange, you know, people who are kind of famous like Sarah Schulman and Carmen Maria Manchotto and people who are really good that may not have as high a profile. So it was, it was let me ask you about the conclusion then. You say you have contributors, respondents, and then you include an obituary, a tribute, a couple of tributes. How did you, and a book review, how did you happen to do that? How did you happen to include that in the issue? Well, Carol Oliver, to whom we have the tribute obituary, was a member of the conditions collective. And she died quite young in 1995. So we wanted to say something about her. And she and Gloria Hall were close friends. And I asked Gloria if she would, you know, if she would write a remembrance of Carol. At first, she said no, because she thought it would be too emotional. And then she said yes. So she wrote it. And Julie asked me if I'd write the obituary for Carol. And of course I said yes. So that's why that obituary is in the tribute issue. I want to just add that because when we were researching everybody who worked editorially on the original 17 Issues of Conditions, we discovered, I think Cheryl knew it, but I think Tramona and I discovered that Carol had died in 1995. And one of the things I feel really passionately about in Sinister Wisdom is the obituary work that we do, that we include tributes and remembrances that really contextualize lesbian life in rich ways. And so knowing that she had died and was part of the original, was a member of the collective, and also that there was scant information available about her life, right? And realizing how easy it is for people's lives to be forgotten and for their contributions not to be recognized, and that without sort of rich stories of who lesbians were and what kind of work they did, we have an even harder time for people to imagine what sorts of work they might do in their own lives. And then there's the tribute to Kay Joven LaHausen. Yeah, well Kay died. So then the other piece, the other thing that I always try to save some room for in Sinister Wisdom is that we have space for tributes for people who died. Kay was one of the original members of the Daughters of Beletus, and Marcia Gallo wrote about it, and she of course has written Different Daughters, one of the definitive histories of the Daughters of Beletus. So when she emailed me and said I'd like to do something, I said yes, of course, and it worked into this particular issue. And then we also include book reviews in issues. Sometimes editors tie the book reviews thematically to what's happening in the issue, and sometimes I just drop them in. And what about the book review policy? I think I might have I might have read somewhere that, and I try to do this with the show, I try to showcase those LGBTQ voices and not tear them down, you know what I mean? I try to celebrate them more than criticize. And what about you don't do you run negative reviews, or do you have a review policy? We don't have a policy. I try, I mean, you know, and you write reviews, and all of us have written reviews, you know, it's an extraordinary amount of work. I always ask, you know, everybody contributes their work to sinister wisdom for free. So we tend to not have hard and fast policies because a lot gets done on goodwill and good feeling. I do when I receive books that I want to be reviewed, I ask people upfront, you know, like, is this an area of interest? I want to write, I want to run reviews by people who are sympathetic to what the author is trying to do, and really tries to understand what their work is and convey it to our readership in a way that people can imagine whether or not they want to read the book for themselves. So that's the kind of approach that I take to our to our book reviews. That makes sense. So it's taken five years. And how did you find the contributors? Just word of mouth or the response? We knew many of them. She knew many of the, many of the intergenerational contributors. And she reached out to many of them. And the way that it worked for us was we sat down with the 17 issues and we thought of who would have a really wonderful response to the particular issue that we wanted to get reflections and speculations and et cetera on. So Julie and I were sitting, we had that spread and we were thinking about who would match well with each issue. That's great. Well, the product is certainly exemplary. Let's talk a little about some of the contributions. Sarah Shulman, who I'm a huge fan and Sarah's, she responded to one of the issues. And I'd like to read a little of her response, if I could, and ask you to comment. It concerns lesbian culture and marginalization. And she says the price of keeping your own culture alive and evolving was separation. In many ways, feminist and lesbian artists repeated this conundrum. And 40 years later, the marginalization continues. So the first question I'd like to ask you, let me digress. I took a lesbian culture class in University of Wisconsin Madison in 1986. And the teacher whom I admired was rumored at the end of the class to question the existence of lesbian culture. And she was a big postmodernist. But I disagreed and I still disagree. But what are your thoughts about lesbian culture? Does it exist? And what are its features, would you say? And of course, there are millions of different lesbian cultures, but maybe lesbian, print, digital, reading culture, intellectual. Yes, a lesbian culture still exists. And I think it will exist. And lesbian print culture still exists. Yes. I think that one of the issues is that, excuse me, some of our work has been absorbed into mainstream culture. So sometimes we forget its origins, especially many of those who are absorbed into the mainstream. So yes, it still exists. And people like Julie continue its vibrancy. We also know this new book that just came out, Mouths of Rain. Have you heard of it, Anne? I have. Mouths of Rain. Do you have it? No, I'll get it. Where is it? Mouths of Rain, the new press, Julie's press published it. But it's about it's Black lesbian culture. That's what she writes about. And the editor Jones, so she has very well chosen Black lesbian literary contributions, past and present. So yes, it still exists. And there are people who are keeping it alive, even though the language we use to describe lesbians is evolving. Well, that reminds me of the interview that you did with Irina Kleftvitz, where she talked about those early days. And she said, paraphrasing, we rejected mainstream culture, but we all kind of wanted to be respectable too. Remember that? Yeah. I remember that. But yeah, we were all kind of vehement in rejecting mainstream culture. And Shulman goes on to address that when she says, hence the long overdue retrospective view on the historic and foundational conditions magazine takes place in sinister wisdom because of the marginalization under the guidance of the gifted visionary editor, President Company, Julie Enzer, instead of in the New Yorker or in the New York Review of Books. So we are still marginalized. Is that a problem, do we think, or does it even matter? You know, I sort of resist the marginalization argument. I resisted because we do not view our publications as marginal. Now, maybe the New Yorker and the New York Times are marginal to us. Good point. But, and also, there is a reason we are, we still reject the mainstream. Because the mainstream is not always where we want to be. You know, we still have our audiences, you know, that we have, that we are responsible to. I mean, I'll stop right there. Srimona, where do you weigh in on these questions? I kept thinking about lesbian culture and the, and exactly what Cheryl said, New York Times being marginal to us. And I was thinking about this very, it's been, it's been turned into a controversial topic for this idea of safe space. And it's less safe space and more autonomous space in my head. And I think that, yes. So I think that that's what it is more so than marginalization. And I think about how it's in 2018 that on Tumblr, where I get most of my lesbian culture when I was younger. And it was in 2018 that Emily Gwen designed the lesbian flag. And there's so many different iterations of it that come out. There's Twitter bots that are lesbian pot of positivity, Twitter bots. And I think that lesbian culture is so alive. And we are always trying to look back to what the work, the work that had already been done, even if it is marginal, it is autonomous. And that connection is still very much alive. And it has many manifestations as you suggest. Absolutely. Any thoughts, Julie? Come on, Julie. I think that the only thing, you know, the only thing I'll add is I think, I think it's a real, I think it's a complex question of this, this sort of relationship between a broader, either popular culture or intellectual culture and different and lesbian cultures and questions of marginalization. And, you know, I'll note that Sarah Shulman was the person who wrote about it. Sarah has occupied many spaces in all of this throughout her career, like let's not forget that Sarah's first novel was published by Barbara Greer of Nayed Books. So she profoundly comes out of lesbian print culture. And I think her, the sort of valences of her questions really are about power and how writers and artists gain power, which is also the ability to pursue their work with more autonomy. So I think, so those are some of the kind of questions that she asks. For me, some of the questions, although I'm, you know, deeply gratified by the kind words that she says, I'm also profoundly aware that I have chosen every step of the way to edit sinister wisdom to give to give sinister wisdom my time because of the because of the flexibility and because of the belief that I have in the value of this work, even if it's not in the New Yorker or the New York review books to me like they're, it's just different questions about different choices that writers and activists make about the work that they do with their one life. That's very good, Julie. Yeah. Yeah. Well, all of your answers were really supportive. I also liked the essay about the university. And I have to say I identified with a lot of this in this volume. But Rachel Corbyn, I can't read my writing, responding to conditions one talked about many of us having not to use the word marginal, but tentative, almost insecure relationships to the academy. But how we have brought that the knowledge that we have as lesbians as les participants or devotees of lesbian culture to the academy in our, you know, like, for example, I taught for 30 years, I never had a tenure track job. But I was able to teach lesbian and I was able to teach, you know, once I got control of the syllabus, I could go to town. I mean, that was a huge privilege at the time. And it was in Louisiana. So I don't know if I'd be able to do that today. But that's another, I mean, the whole collection is really wide ranging. So let me ask Cheryl, if I, if you don't mind, do you think I really enjoyed the pentalobe, which I was able to access online? Do you think that there's a black lesbian canon? You were talking in the, you were all talking about the canon for formation and I was struck by how different things. Yes, I think there is. And I'm proud to be a part of it. Yes. Yes. And I can't wait to read this book you just recommended. I'm in that book too. Great, great. Yes, I think so. I think I think thanks to people like Barbara Smith and conditions and sinister wisdom all have led to the creation of a black lesbian canon. And the editor of Malds of Rain, Breonna S. Jones, she's committed to, she's committed to furthering that canon of black lesbian literature. So yes, it's fabulous. Speaking of your wide ranging writings, you've written a lot of essays for publication. And my question is, do you plan to publish a collection of essays that we'd all love to read? No plans are in the works as yet. Some of my, a number of my essays are in the days of good looks, prose and poetry, prose and poetry, 1980 to 2005. It is now out of print. But a number of them have been there. Essays are so much work. But you've written a lot of them. Yes, but there's still so much work. Maybe Ann, but none are in the works as of yet. Okay, okay. Because you will talk a little bit about the book that is in the works. Oh, please. Yes, Ann, I have, thanks Julie, I have a book of new and collected poetry that's due to be out from Northwestern University next year, 2023. So that's what I'm working on now. That's great. And you'll have to come on the show when it comes out and share some with the viewers. Certainly, Ann, just write me. Oh, okay. Let me ask a couple of more questions before we close. Srimona, you were able to write a response to conditions 10, I believe. And it was interesting because it was epistolary, which I liked a lot. And there's some, I mean, there's poetry and there are essays and, you know, there's the epistolary introduction with Ellie Balkan. But let me read your, Ann asked you to respond to the following comment that you made in this letter. I began to learn the ways that intentional, ambitious, and small-scale circulations, it's getting dark here. Sorry. Circulations can do the heavy lifting of building power. Do you want me to read it again since I stumbled through it? I began to learn the ways that intentional, ambitious, and small-scale circulations can do the heavy lifting of building power. Absolutely. So can you expand on that, please? Sure. I think doing this issue and the interview that Julie and I did with Irina Klefesh was very pivotal in helping me understand power and organizing because I've come to understand organizing as coming to collectively understand not only our role in social change, but our capacity to build change. And that realization, it only happens in practice and writing and reading and doing editorial work. And what I was seeing in conditions 10, doing the fundraising, doing the more logistical work, deciding how to review and what to include and how to have that conversation with everyone. But in this very, decentralized, this very sparse and distributed network, that to me was very powerful, but also it was inspiring to think about how that is so much more possible even now. And just this idea that power is built through realizing visions collectively, through really understanding how coming together makes things possible and committing to small-scale instead of over committing yourself, all of that stuff is very much a lesson of conditions. And also just the fact that it's lesbian publication or actually a lesbian editorial board running a feminist publication that was doing this. So that was incredible for me to learn about. So the power of women's collaboration and community lives on? Absolutely. Well that's encouraging along with the women in print culture that we think is also continuing. Julie, let me ask you, let me read a quotation of yours back to you if you wouldn't, that's okay. And then I would ask you to respond to it. Now I'll turn the light on so that might be more propitious for me. Senator Wisdom understands the vital importance of promulgating the lesbian literary good news. And the conditions of a feminist magazine of writing with an emphasis on writing by lesbians was one of our most marvelous radical beacons. And the lesbian literary good news continues. Julie, what tell us about the lesbian literary good news? And you're welcome to chime in other panelists. We could all use some lesbian literary good news I think. Well I think that you know one of the really marvelous things about where we are right now is that there's a variety of places where lesbian writing is reaching interested and receptive audiences. So it is happening in what Park Bowman and June Arnold called the mail stream publishing houses that was their kind of take on mainstream. The large commercial publishing houses are publishing really interesting edgy important work by lesbian writers. And I think that we have to recognize that and appreciate that for the kinds of distribution that those authors get and the audiences that they're able to reach. Well at the same time we have really interesting things happening in lesbian periodicals like sinister wisdom. There's another periodical called WMN zine. There's a periodical that's called lesbians are miracles that publish is exclusively online that has magic. Lesbians are mad. I always confuse the two right. I just know that because I've listened to your last interview 11 months ago. Right I always I always confuse I'm just pulling up to see if I can see it but I don't write away. Lesbians are either miracles or they're magic. Some of us think that they're both but only one is the title of the journal. And I think and it's one of the most beautifully produced lesbian journals that that I've seen perhaps ever they they're just doing fabulous stuff kind of uniting text and visual artwork. And so so and then on top of that there are various publishing efforts that are happening. Jewel Gomez has a new collection of writing coming out of poems coming out from BLF press that S. Andrea Allen runs. The Lisa Moore from Red Bone Press has done some of the most innovative publishing over the past 20 years. So there's lots of really interesting pockets of things happening and things coalescing in different ways that I think is really exciting and that I think nurtures writers and readers and help us all in times that can be really precarious economically and depressing politically. This work is coming out to help us have a vision and have some sort of support for imagining new and different kind of futures. Well said. Any other lesbian good news anybody wants to share? Thank you. Or should we move on to last words? We're getting to the end of the show unfortunately but there's plenty of time for valedictory remarks from each of you. What would you like the audience to know and what are your concluding thoughts? Well I'd like to thank you Ann for interviewing us and for having your show. Well thank you for coming on. I'm very grateful. You're really luminaries. You'll elevate the discourse of our lesbianaries. That's right. Well thank you. Are there any last thoughts that you have for us? I'll say order the issue. Subscribe to Sinister Wisdom. SinisterWisdom.org is the URL where you can do everything. And always if you're sitting out in the audience thinking well why did they do conditions and not this magazine which is my favorite and you want to be a part of another editorial collective please reach out. There's always more work to do and Sinister Wisdom I think of us as the organization that says yes to lesbians and lesbian ideas so if you have them out and let's work together. Okay Shromona you're on the spot. Oh no I would just say that intergenerational space is everything and I'm really grateful to your show and to Sinister Wisdom for creating something like this and yeah that's my concluding thought. Thank you. Cheryl anything else? No I think I said enough. Never enough. We'll look for your current publications and for your work everywhere that I've been enjoying and thank you all very much for joining us. We had a great time and keep up the good work all of you. Lesbian print culture lives. Yeah. Thank you for joining us and until next time remember resist.