 We're videotaping for historical preservation in the archives, but the audience will not be videotaped. I'm also going to videotape it just as a backup. What I'm going to do is go through a formal interview, then we'll open up the floor for questions and you can ask whatever you want. I already can feel the energy for that. So without further ado, I'll go ahead and I'll start this. We've got our camera rolling. You ready? I'm ready. You ready? I think I'm ready. Well, when I spoke with you on the phone in preparation for this, you told me that you can speak at length about BDSM, kink, leather, and today I hope you'll keep your word. Okay. All right. So let's start at the beginning. Where did you grow up? I grew up. I was actually born in California, Long Beach, California. I was raised in Arkansas and went to school in Arkansas, left Arkansas, went to Oklahoma and from Oklahoma I've been in Texas. I actually had a midlife crisis at 30, left Oklahoma because, and this is actually why I told everybody in the community in Oklahoma, I needed to go out and find my leather sexuality. I had a map all planned out. I was going to go down through Dallas, Dallas to Phoenix. Then next to San Diego, LA, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, back to Vegas, over to Omaha, yes, Omaha, Nebraska, Kansas City, St. Louis, Chicago, New York, Boston, and then down to the Southeast, including Florida, Georgia. And I knew I'd stop somewhere. So I made it to Dallas and that's as far as I made it. So tell us a bit about your family. My family. I come from a semi-large family who's raised a Catholic. Yes, I was beat by the nuns. I enjoyed every minute of it. And I lost my mother in 2000, she was my best friend, and still very close to one of my sisters. I mean, we're a very close-to-it family, but I'm closest to one of my sisters. That's just religion, San Antonio. And every year we take a trip together to commemorate the life of my mother. And we normally go on cruise every year and we celebrate her life. I remember the first time, when I first told my mother I was gay, I was 26 years old. And of course, like all mothers, she has a hard time with it. And she came to the realization that, you know, there was five of us kids that she would probably have five more. There may have been another gay person out there in the family. Very well-received. I also, there was also a videotape of my mother after she came to the part of the accepting of who I am and my sexuality and also my lifestyle. She knew I was also kinky because I was kinky before I was gay. And she, when my little sister graduated from high school, she remarried to a wonderful man. And he passed away a year after she did. And I handled these dates of both of them. But the first thing he made her do when they married was to quit her job. Well, she goes, I'm not going to be bored. So she owned the antiques stores around Arkansas. She had like eight antiques shops. And she was a treasurer of one of the antiques associations in central Arkansas. And there's a videotape of her in this conference with the President's Association and all the rest of the board members. The mayor's wife of this small town in Arkansas, which is Russellville, Arkansas, is sitting across the table from her. They're getting ready to have elections for the new officers. And my mother, of course, nominates the president, who's also a florist in Arkansas. And the mayor's wife speaks of him. She says, well, I don't think we need your kind of this town anymore. My mother says, what do you mean? Well, you know he's gay. My mother turns around and looks at her. She goes, I'm going to beat the shit out of you. She goes, crawl across the table at this moment. And it's on videotape. That's my mother. She took no prisoners. I mean, she spoke her mind. And I got to say, she was my best friend. My best friend, you know, when I left home at 17 to go to college, I called her every Sunday at seven o'clock her time, no matter where I was. If I was in Europe, no matter where I was. That's the kind of relationship we had. So that's my family. I want to backtrack one moment though. I'm going to ask the question. I know there must be on everybody's minds. What did you do that caused the nuns to beat you? Anything I could. No, I, first of all, I'm left handed. I grew up and went to the Catholic Church. And the masses today are still given in Latin. That's how, you know, archaic they are still. And they thought I was a demon seed because I was left handed. Well, I guess I could be, but, you know, but I continually got fights. I love fights. And I think that was just the early kinks during me coming out. So. So you mentioned you were planning to travel all over the United States post to coast. What made you choose to stay in Dallas? I was Dallas and I, there was a job posting that, that I thought I wanted to do. And it was a manager for an investment company, the Delhi Investments. And I interviewed for them with them and got the job. I stayed in Dallas and traveled to Boston, traveled to California, all over the place with the job. Well, that job in 95 got transferred to Covington, Kentucky. And I thought, well, I have just learned to wear shoes. I am not going to Kentucky. So it was kind of a joke that, you know, somebody from Arkansas saying that Kentucky's more backwards than Arkansas, which we know has stopped true. But I decided to stay in Texas and close down the business, which I did. And it was going to take a year to close it down. I closed it down in three months. So they gave me a year's severance packet, a year's vacation on top of that, two years of health insurance. And what I did with the money is I turned around and opened the Dallas Eagle because Dallas had no leather bar at the time. And that was in 1995. Three weeks after the Dallas Eagle opened, I went back to work for Bank One, which was Chase. I was based out of Columbus, Ohio. And every Monday I traveled to Columbus and every Friday traveled back to Dallas. Well, right after I was hired with Bank One, the Federal Reserve decided to hire me away from Bank One. And I was with the government. Tell us about your forays into the leather community. You mentioned that you were kinky before you came out as a gay man. So tell us how that transpired. As a child, I've always been kinky. You know, I would go out and, you know, take boyfriends. And we're talking platonic, just, you know, friends even when you're a child, childhood friends. And tie them up and stake them out and pour like honey on them and let the ants crawl all over them. And, you know, as we got older, or I got older, I started, you know, being a little sadistic with animals. I know this sounds weird, but there was a dog that lived and he chased cars. And we would put a tote sack around the tire and drop the throne as the dog would bite the tire and the dog would roll the... You know, and I'm a dog lover. So, I mean, would that actually not hurt the dog and just put the dog over and then we'd stand there and laugh at it? You know, so yes, I was a little sadistic back then. You know, give me... I don't mess with dogs now, so. I love dogs. Don't give me... Nobody, please, come and shoot me. Don't do it. And then I started, you know, in my early teens, started dating girls. And we would actually tie each other up. Mainly they would tie me up because I enjoyed that. And then, you know, my... I went through my sexual revolution where, you know, starting engaging in sex and BDSM at the same time. And then continued on to where I was today and then realized that men give better blow jobs to women. So... Generally. Because the men agree that women don't. Because the men really know how to, you know, give a better blow job in my opinion. And that's when I realized I need to be gay. Now, let me also point out that I'm still attracted to women, especially women with big breasts. I haven't figured that one out yet. So... So I'm just a mixed up little, you know, Oreo cookie. You did mention that you have a passion for gay and BDSM. What is that passion? What does it mean to you? It's all about... And, you know, in the community, all so often you hear the word energy exchange. And most people use that as a buzzword, not knowing what it really is. If you really look at the raw dynamics of what an energy exchange is, it's the transference and the receiving of energy from one person to the other. It's not one-sided. It's two-sided. And if you don't have that dynamics going on with your play partner, then why play with that person? I always make a statement during my workshops. I get in my little soapbox very beginning of the workshop. I say the thing that pisses me off the most is going through a play space and seeing two individuals go through the motions of play and there's not a connection between the two. And you can have a connection on a spiritual, mental, psychological, emotional, or physical level. But if you have none of those, then why are you playing together? Because then it's only showboating. And I enjoy, or I pride myself on being able to find people I connect with on one of those levels and oftentimes many of those levels. And I enjoy that play because you find that there is a real transference of energy no matter if you're a top or a bottom. And the bonding experience after that's over with leads to a lifelong friendship. That's amazing. Well, you are an accomplished workshop presenter. Have you any idea how many you've done? At the beginning of this year, there was 1,566 workshops that I've done. What kinds do you normally do? Well, you know, I started off doing stuff like waxing, multiplication, and much like most people in the SM community can attest to is our journey in the BDSM lifestyle is evolutionary. We start off with something that we think is kiki or edge play. For instance, when I first started off, I thought, you know, waxing was an edge play. To me, it makes me laugh. We evolve into a creature that wants more and deeper experiences. So I've done everything from the vanilla SM to the really heavy edge play. Both in workshops and, you know, dungeon settings. Is there a particular one that is the most enjoyable for you? I love breath play. Is there one that you've always wanted to do that you haven't yet done? That's quite an accomplishment. So we briefly touched on the opening of the Dallas Eagle, and I'd like to know, we would like to know about your passion in channeling your energies into opening that. You mentioned that you had some of money and you were able to do that. What went into opening that bar? The first, and this is the biggest part about opening any bar anywhere. It's finding the perfect location. You had to find a place that had lots of parking. The perfect location was an existing leather bar that went out of business in 1992. It was called the Rip Court. And that bar went from being a leather bar to being a performance bar. And they had mirrors on all the walls from top to bottom, 24 foot ceilings. And, you know, Bobby Penn's everywhere when we were moving in. Islas is everywhere when we were moving in. There were things that I didn't even know people wore that was in this bar when we started renovating. At the same time, I lost my job. I also have a very dear friend who I knew from Oklahoma that had actually lost his job and he was the executive director of the YMCA at Fort Worth. And he goes, well, what are we going to do? I go, well, let's open a leather bar. Dallas doesn't have one. And he says, I don't know anything about leather. I go, well, I don't know everything about leather either. But I do know that if we make it about the community, it will be a success. And I think that's the problem with most bars that fail. They make it about their vision and not about the community. You have to make it about the community. Much as you do any event that you put on, it has to be about the community. It's not about your vision. It's about what you want it to be for the community. And then you listen to the community about what they want. And you build your, this is around what they think they need from you. How was the bar received? Very well. When I sold the bar in 2008, it had been around 13 years. Something that's almost unheard of. The very first year of being open in the bar business, we had a profit. I'm not the best person to go out. Stuff like this makes me nervous to sit in front of a group of people. I know it doesn't show, but I'm very uncomfortable in a group sitting like this. They put me out among people who are in a small workshop. I'm great. They put me on the stage and I get extremely nervous. So I actually, my business partner can talk to Rick Wall and make the Wall talk back to him. I came. My job was to be in the office doing all the paperwork and paying all the bills and making sure that financially it was a success. And that's where my business sense is right now. I like to play a behind-the-scenes role in everything I do. That's fascinating. I did read though that a former mayor of Dallas visited the Eagle. And I know I'm curious, I think everybody else would be, what did the mayor wear to the Eagle? The mayor wore a business suit and Laura Miller, who's the mayor, very dear friend, as with all the city council people are in Dallas. I know them all by first name. And she came in very well received. I mean, the gay community in Dallas loved the mayor. She put a lot of policies in place with the help of the city council to protect our rights as individuals. And we stood behind her. Unfortunately, she did not run again. Last year, she was the grand marshal of the gay pride parade in Dallas along with myself. Again, all the city council were there and they came up to me and said, why don't you run for city council? I kind of laughed and said, no. And they go, why? Because I have a past and there's pictures. And they go, oh, okay. Where can we find those pictures? So, you know, everybody thinks of as Texas as a very conservative state. If you look at the larger cities in Texas, Dallas, Austin, San Antonio, Houston, they're all very liberal, but it's the outlying communities which are very conservative. In building in that vein a little bit, the Dallas Eagle was rated in July. And in the leather journal, you said, well, I know that this seems like a vendetta against the gay bars of Dallas, but it's not, at least not in this case. What happened? You know, the Dallas Eagle, and we had actually been planning to open a brand new bar for five years. It took us five years to get it open. But they now have opened a brand new bar. But during the grand opening, the new owners did not follow through on transferring the liquor permits, the existing liquor permits, to a new location. And when they didn't do that, they were in violation of the Texas Alcohol Beverage Control Board laws because the new location had no permit to sell alcohol. So they came in and shut it down. They also fined all the bartenders for serving alcohol. They also fined the bar for operating a business without a dance permit. Which is all legally okay. I mean, 30 minutes before they got rated, the sheriff was on stage at the bar giving a speech that how nice it was to have a new location in Dallas that people come to and express their own sexuality. And that sheriff is the only elected lesbian sheriff in North America of a large city. And you know, unfortunately, along with press blew it out of proportion about what happened. That wasn't the case. I mean, the Dallas Eagle screwed up. I got involved the Monday after it happened, went and talked to the city council, called my friends at the TABC, met with the owners, got it resolved. And they were told that it would be four or six weeks before they could get their paperwork. The next week, the administrator in Austin where the TABC offices are located personally drove the new permits up to Dallas to present to the new owners. And that's how you have to have a working relationship with the government offices. I mean, they respect us as individuals for the most part. And when they don't respect us, then it's our job to educate. And you don't educate by slamming them in the press. You work with them to overcome those differences. Well, building a little bit more on the conservatism of Texas, I was recently made aware that a couple of years ago, the Governor Perry suggested that gay veterans who are unhappy with Texas's unwillingness to permit gay marriage might consider relocating elsewhere. What are your feelings on that? How does that perceive by the Texas gay community? You know, we, you know, unfortunately, he was elected governor. Just like another Texan was elected president. And we all had those burdens there through those years. There are people lining up against running, for him running again. And hopefully we'll get that changed. But we can only get it changed through the electoral process. Are we happy about what he said? No, because he's stupid. But there's a lot of stupid people out in the world. But we can work to change it. You were president of the National Leather Association International. What drew you to that position? Education. Also? When I was president of the organization, I was actually president of NLA Dallas back in the early years. And this is 1990, 1991. And back then I was involved in every aspect of the community I could be involved in. At the time I was president of NLA Dallas, I was also president of the Texas Gay Radio Association. Because I participated in the radios. And my big platform back there was to bridge the Brown Leather community, which are the Cowboys, and the Black Leather community, which are the Leathermen together. And, you know, there's a close bond between those groups now in Texas. But what drew me was the fact that the outreach and the education that NLA Dallas did for their community. After I stepped down from NLA Dallas, I ran for the position of Mr. NLA National Leather Association International at the time. I won that title and traveled 48 weekends around the country, also in North America, educating people on BDSM. And what safe, sane, and consensual really is. And there's, you know, three other buzz words that people use to try to police our community. And, you know, in actuality, safe, sane, and consensual are basically three terms that those people who are engaged decide what they are. Because whatever is safe, sane, and consensual for you and your partner may not be for another partner. So that was probably the biggest thing that I took on as an ambassador toward the title. After I stepped down, I became the treasurer of the organization. And only to find out that we were about $68,000 in debt. And only to find out that we were on the verge of bankruptcy. I also, at that point, followed our 501C3 papers to make the organization taxes in, which we got. Trying to pay off the debt was a horrendous experience. But when you love something so much, and I've never said this to anybody before, or any group before, I actually wrote a personal check to retire the entire debt in a lay international. Because I believed in the group, and I still believe in it. So I think that we, as a community, when we actually believe in something, we actually support it with everything we have. In a lay international, it's growing strong today. I was the president for four years, the wisdom keeper for two years, the treasurer for another year after that, before I stepped down. And I moved on. And it still holds a lot of fond memories, but I have other things that I'm really interested in right now. And given my energies to also, and one of those is Leather Archives, which I think is something that everybody should be involved in. And everybody should support. Let's explore a little bit about the International Leather Sir Leather Boy Contest. How did this come to be? You know, the International Leather Sir Leather Boy Contest, also the International Community Boot Black Contest, all tied together. And the contests are actually a result of another title that existed. That was the drummer titles. Unfortunately, the drummer title ran into some financial difficulties, and had to be shut down. And from that, the International Leather Sir Leather Boy and Community Boot Black Contest came to fruition. At the time, a person by the name of Mike Zul, owned the contest. I actually acquired the contest from Mike in 2007. And there's some changes that I wanted to personally make to the contest. Number one, I wanted to go back to the roots. I wanted it to be a player's title, and not all about sex. I mean, sex is great. Sex also plays equally as important. I also wanted to allow transgendered individuals to be able to run and compete for those titles. Open them. And that was a big change. That was a bitter pill for a lot of people to swallow. I caught a lot of health from a lot of people. But I still think that was the right thing to do today. And I have no regrets. I'm doing it. Yes, it probably caused us some support out there. But it also gained us some support. In 2006, you received the Pantheon of Leather Lifetime Achievement Award. Why did you feel that was premature? Because it's kind of like an orgasm. It wasn't supposed to happen yet. I have so much more to do. I think that your lifetime achievement awards are given to people who are slowing down. People who are stepping back, not necessarily stepping away, but stepping back. And I haven't done that yet. There are things that I want to accomplish out there. And there's other things that I want to see us as a community accomplish. I want to be able to see five years from now that anybody anywhere in the United States can walk full leather down the street and not have people talk about them. I want to be able to tell people who think that we are an abusive community to understand that we're not given one of the DVDs that I created for Out of the Darkness. Which will help explain that SM is not necessarily a bad thing or a bad word. It's just part of who we are. You're pursuing your education at the moment. Tell us a bit about that. I am done pursuing my education. I got my master's degree in healthcare administration in February. I got my degree to be a registered nurse in June. And now I'm pursuing other journeys and like to see where I am going to end up. For those of you who have not heard, on Thursday before I flew up here, I had sold my condo earlier in the week. I packed up my last box. I put it in storage on Thursday morning. And I'm starting a new journey in life. Where that leads me, I don't know yet. So what about you as most misunderstood? I think that probably the most misunderstood thing about me is... Sorry about that. I think the biggest misunderstanding about me, or people misunderstand a lot about me is, people think that I am probably stuck up. Because I really don't go up and initiate a lot of conversations with a lot of people. I'm basically a shy person. I think people mistake shyness for being standoffish or being stuck in their side. What will be your legacy? That I gave for things that I believe in. What a beautiful legacy to have. Well, thank you very much.