 Good morning, everyone. My name's Jane Nelson, and I direct the Corporate Responsibility Initiative at Harvard Kennedy School. And it's my very great pleasure to serve as your facilitator for our discussion today on the strategic outlook for responsible consumption. And responsible consumption that meets both growing and changing consumer needs and expectations in a way that is first, more environmentally responsible, secondly, is healthier for people, and thirdly, is more inclusive and equitable and transparent. And I think when we talk about responsible consumption, that the leadership imperative is both very clear and I think also very challenging and difficult. And really, I think it's a two-fold leadership challenge at the moment. First of all, there's the challenge to fundamentally transform a number of our current consumption models and patterns over the medium to longer term to be more sustainable, healthy, and inclusive. And then obviously, there's the current challenge of recognizing that consumers are dealing with pretty severe shocks and crises. And having to manage both of those at the same time, I think, is at the heart of the responsible consumption challenge. If we look at that first part of the challenge, I think it's clear probably to all of us in the room that our current models of both production and consumption, whether it's for food, personal care products, consumer adorables, textiles, pretty much any sort of consumer products and services are just not sustainable enough and are not going to be able to support expected global population of over 8 billion people by 2030 and a 50% increase, expected 50% increase in consumer spending by then. And so we've got to have some fundamental transformation in our models. And again, the numerous statistics we could quote, but if we just take food and the UN Food Systems Scientific Group have estimated that the hidden costs of food production and consumption as they currently are to both human health and the planet, total about $19 trillion, which is almost double the value of food consumption. Water insecurity, some 40% of the world's near population are currently facing water insecurity. If we look at plastics and some of the challenges of plastics, we know what the challenges are, and yet still only some 14% of plastics are being recycled. So it's very clear some of the shifts we need to make. I mean, it's about healthy diets, et cetera, some of the shifts we need to make in the medium to longer term. And then obviously equally, there's the current crisis that we're dealing with. And it doesn't need too much elaboration, but I think worth noting how yesterday that the forecast coming from the World Economic Forum's chief economist or community of chief economists, and I quote, declining wages and high or very high inflation in most parts of the world in the near future while at the same time the planet may suffer the worst food crisis in recent history and is already in that. So that's the core of the challenge that we face. I think that the good news is, particularly as we look to the medium longer term, that there's an enormous amount of innovation underway in technologies and business models and new types of collaboration, your government policies, your business strategies. And that's really what we want to focus on on the panel today. So not on the problems, but very much on the solutions as we move forward, particularly that more sort of medium term approach. And we've got a wonderful panel to get the discussion going, and then we'll open up for questions and comments from the audience. I would like to just take the opportunity before introducing the panel to thank the future of consumption platform team and Zara and her team at the World Economic Forum for continuing to bring together these multi-stakeholder dialogues. So thank you for bringing us together. So that further to do, I'm to introduce my panel. So we've got Nicholas Heronimus, who is the chief executive officer of L'Oreal, one of the world's leading and largest consumer personal care brands. Gilberto Tomazzini, who is the chief executive officer of JBS, one of the world's leading food companies. Vivian Heinen, who is the minister of environment for the Netherlands, and playing a very, very important leadership role there. So great to have you with us, minister. And then Michael Evans, who is the president of Alibaba Holding Group. And as many of you will know, one of the world's leading and most innovative e-platforms and marketplaces. So great range across the sort of consumer value chain. And without further ado, I'd like to sort of start our conversation and focus very much around sort of new types of innovation and focus in initially on sort of science and technology and product innovation. And Nicholas, if we could start with you. I mean, L'Oreal was created over 100 years ago by a scientist. 112 years ago. 112 years ago to be accurate by a scientist or a chemist. And so R&D and innovation has obviously always been at your core. But as you sort of look to the future, what are some of the major science and technology innovations that you're most excited about for driving responsible consumption? Well, there are many things that we're excited about. So I'll try to be brief. Well, first of all, as a reminder, L'Oreal is the leading beauty company in the world. And we sell around 7 billion products to 1 billion consumers that we try to make feel good about themselves and look better and feel better. And that gives us great responsibility in terms of responsible consumption. And innovation, as you say, rightfully is at the core of our model. 3% of our turnover is spent on R&D. And we focus on three areas. First is responsible innovation. And I'm going to say a few words about it. Second is responsible production. And finally is responsible consumption. Because as it's obvious, consumers has a very important role to play in sustainability. So as far as innovation is concerned, I will give you a few examples. We spend a lot of effort in improving the environmental footprint of our products. 96% of the products we launched last year had an improved environmental profile. We try to launch products that reduce water consumption. For example, just a couple of months ago, we launched on one of our brands, a non-rinse conditioner, which sounds a bit basic. But each tube saves 100 liters of water. And that makes a difference instead of rinsing it out. And I see women with long hair in the audience and know how long it can be to rinse a conditioner. We've also invested in a small startup called BUSA that has created a shower head that reduces the consumption of water of hair salons by 60%. So this is the type of innovation, whether it's in-house or outside. Of course, we work on our packaging, moving with pledge to have 100% of recycled plastic by 2030. We're at 20% right now, but most of our brands are well on the way. So that's really about the products themselves. And I don't want to take too much time because I'm so passionate about my products, I could take ages. Manufacturing and sourcing are very important. We want all our sites to be carbon neutral. To date, 70% of our factories, the whole US operations was carbon neutral last year. So it's all embedded in everybody. By the way, in everybody's bonuses and objectives, we track this in a very important manner. We also have strong solidarity sourcing programs to make sure that underprivileged communities not only benefit from our activity but also are involved in one of our commitments, which is living wage. We've committed that all the loyal employees, of course, are paid at the living wage but also that our main suppliers should be. And of course, it's a discussion we have with them. But finally, and I'll stop there to give time to everybody, as the theme today is responsible consumption, the consumer has a very important role to play. Today, there's an important number that always strikes me is that 85% of people say they want to behave and consume more sustainably, but only 5% do it. And the reason between these two huge numbers, the gap is one, lack of information, two, compromise on quality. And these are the two things we work on. Information, we are creating an eco score which we've shared with all the industry to allow consumers to judge whether a product is more or less sustainable and make educated choices. And that's a big, big consortium. And of course, transparencies, information is putting on our sides, all the ingredients, everything people want to know. But also educating consumers with advertising, that's really part of the crusade. And finally, quality, the one thing that is for sure is that whenever a consumer tries a sustainable product that is not as good as the non-sustainable one, he won't stick to it. So our labs are working super hard, and we've had a few flops like this, but our labs are working super hard to make sure that any new sustainable product is at least as good as the previous one. Not easy, but when you do it, huge home run, both for the business and for the planet. And the amount of sort of science and technology innovation that it has to go into making that quality is the same. Yeah, the ingredients, the manufacturing, biosourced ingredients, we invest in green sciences which is a totally new discipline working from mushrooms and from proteins or enzymes. It's, I made a few interesting guys from startups here, biotech startups. It's really a revolution, a science revolution which of course we're working hard on. Yeah, great. And then that converges between the digital sciences and biosciences, particularly exciting. Yep, which, good segue, Gilberto, to you. Obviously, you're feeding more people in more sustainable and nutritious ways and making sure that your food is affordable, nutritious and tasty, so the quality aspect again is that the core of the challenges you face is as a leader of a food company. Can you share some of the commitments you're making, both in the area of proteins and more broadly around science and technology innovation? Oh, thank you. In reality, we work in the same business because we produce essential foods and the food is very important for the life. And we see that the humanity is faced too big, too big emergency. It's not a challenge, it's an emergency. At the same time, we need to face this climate change and we need to produce more to feed a good old population. As you said, more people. And this is the way that we are producing today is not sustainable. This is our big, big challenge. And what we are seeing that the, what we are focused on, it's we need to be net zero because this emergency is not for the future. It's for now. The humanity's face, the impact of the climate change, the extreme weather, then it's not time. We decide as a company to be net zero 2004. And to be net zero in 2004 brings a lot of challenge to us because 90%, more than 90% of the emission in the scope three. We are in scope three, we cannot without collaboration, without to get all the people with us. And when you see that in the farms, for example, farms is a huge opportunity to be part of the solution because we can produce more and the farm can catch the carbon and storage the carbon. And in this system, we are focused on a change game project. This is integration with crop, farm, livestock and florist. If you put together at the same area that we produce, we can produce more, 40% foods and to be carbon negative is still to emit, you can catch carbon. That is this kind of things you need to escalate because it's the solution. We need, they face the two emergency that we have. The other one is degraded soil. If you take a degraded soil and you restarting the soil, you can produce 10 times more. It's amazing the opportunity we have. And then our focus is to escalate. We put, how you can escalate this? Because this is not, is a job for everybody to work together, but our side, we put 15 green office to support the farmers for a more sustainable production and more productive production because it's not, as you said, if you're not, it's not good like the first, they not take. The farmer is the same. If you're not more productive, they, why they have changed this, the way to produce. That is to us. And the other part, you talk about innovation. We have a JBS food lab. We call lab because an open innovation. We go to the marketing. We launch our challenge. You get the answer. With this, we invest in plant-based. I mentioned to Viviane that we are operating in Holland with Viviera, it's a plant-based company. It's a big challenge because it should be healthy product, but product today, it's not healthier as a meat. And meat could be healthier if you commit. Meat could be not a problem with the solution because, as I say, the two examples before. And the other things, we invest in cells. So we have quickly mentioned the cells and then we'll come back and... Just, okay. The cells, we bought a company in Spain, a biotech. They prove they can produce in the pilot plant. Now we'll build an industrial plant. We produce 1,000 tons for proteins. And we are put in a research center for biotechnology in Brazil to produce more other kind of fermentation things. We believe that biotechnology is a great opportunity for developing innovation and help to close the gap to feed the world's agro-population. And I think a key challenge there is it has the potential to fill the gap and yet coming back to that consumer awareness and information. There's a lot of distrust in biotechnology and I think one of the key challenges that is faced, particularly as it relates to foods, how we make those investments and also educate. So thanks for some great examples there, Shalbert. And we'll come back more on that later. And Mike, moving to you, you're obviously every day at Alibaba sort of enabling hundreds of millions of people to connect commercially, socially with merchants, with each other. What are some of the digital technology innovations you're most excited about? Okay, well, unlike JBS or L'Oreal, we don't manufacture products and we don't come up with cool new things because we're a platform that acts as an interface between consumers and merchants. So when we think about responsible consumption, we think how can we play a role in that working with both consumers and with merchants? And I'll give you a few examples, but I want to set the context for this so that you have a framework for understanding the scale of what we do. So we have about a billion consumers in China. We have 250,000 brands like L'Oreal on our platform. We have 10 million small businesses on the platform. We deliver about 80 million packages a day, and we have a very large cloud business that helps us keep track of everything that we're doing on that ecosystem. So when we think about what we should be doing as it relates to sustainable and responsible consumption, we're either a big part of the solution or we're a big part of the problem. And we've decided that we want to be a big part of the solution and I'll give you some examples of what we're doing. But remember, we're not producing or manufacturing products, so we're working as the interface. So one thing we do, and we do this very well, actually L'Oreal is a leader on our platform in this, is that we want to sell green products. Now that sounds easy. There's two problems. The supply of green products is actually quite limited. Most companies are not producing them, and the companies that are starting to produce them are relatively early in that process. The second problem is there are no industry standards that determine what is a green product for this industry and categories within the industry. So it makes it a little difficult for people to sort of pick up the guidebook and make a decision about what to do. But we work very closely with Nicholas and his L'Oreal team and we actually help develop and then we promote those products on our platform and green products on our platform are going to become much bigger in the future. Second thing, what we call re-commerce, what you all would think of as second-hand products. We have a special app on our platform. It's called Idle Fish. Sounds better in Chinese. What is Idle Fish? Idle Fish is where 20 million people go every day to buy second-hand products. Everything. More than a million products a day, more than a billion products last year. That business is growing incredibly fast. Why? Particularly the younger generation are very sort of conscious of the fact that green and environmentally conscious consumer is important, but they're also attracted by the price points of second-hand products. If we get the younger consumers to start thinking about this, as they evolve on the platform, they're going to become responsible consumers for life. And then the third thing we do, because you heard me reference 70 million, 70 to 80 million packages delivered today, we think about packaging. We all have the same issue. We get home and there are boxes and packages and we think, what am I going to do with all this trash? Oh my goodness. First of all, packaging. We need to get rid of tape. We want 100% biodegradable packaging. That's what we're targeting right now. In terms of recycling, we have an initiative underway and L'Oreal's our partner on this in China where we will take all packaging returned to us by consumers for L'Oreal products. We will pick it up in one of our Xanyan posts, our logistics hubs, and we will give it back to L'Oreal. If we can do that with one brand, think what we could do with 250,000 brands on our platform. So these are the types of initiatives that we're engaged in to try and promote responsible consumption. At massive scale. And then you've given the great example of L'Oreal. How many of your other 250,000, of your products, your companies that you're dealing with, would you say are there? How do you encourage, push, require... We appropriately, appropriately use best in class behavior as an example to other brands when we talk to them. Every brand we talk to is interested in ESG, responsible consumption, packaging all of these initiatives. And they say what do we do? And so appropriately and carefully we use L'Oreal as an example because they're huge on our platform and they are leaders in this initiative in many different areas. Green products, recycling, lots of different things. That's a race to the top best in class approach which I think really, really works. Yep, great, thank you. Coming to you, I mean we've heard from individual companies and then companies that have an incredible scale through their various platforms. I mean you and your colleagues in the Dutch government have made a very ambitious commitment for the entire economy to move towards a circular economy model. Can you share a bit of what you're doing there how we drive this change at a systems level with government leadership working with business and civil society? Yes, well thank you very much for your question also. I have to say that I'm very impressed with all the initiatives that the big multinational companies that are sitting here are taking and it really helps for example if Alibaba stimulates also smaller companies to think about the way they package their products and how you can reuse the packaging because packaging is a huge part of our waste challenge. The Dutch government is very much committed to working towards a circular economy. It is a term that I haven't heard in this panel discussion but I've heard it a lot during previous sessions and I think that is also really the way to go. If you look at the way we are using up our resources at the moment we are using up 2.7 planet earth resources at the moment which is not a sustainable way to go. So we have to think about reusing and making products in a way that you can take out certain things and this is something that we are very committed to as a government. We also try to stimulate innovation in that field when it comes to consumer awareness about also their role in this transition that we are going through basically it is very crucial because of course producers produce what consumers consume and that means that consumers have a very big and important role to play in this whole transition towards the circular economy. We try to stimulate it also with awareness campaigns and it can also come with a certain policy. For example we have put a tax on small plastic bottles for example but we also now will introduce a tax on single use plastics for consumers to make a contribution if they choose to use a single use plastic for example a coffee cup which often contains plastic without people even knowing it so that will also help while really trying to reduce waste in a very important way if you look at single use plastics in the Netherlands we have 19 million uses of single use plastics every day in the Netherlands alone we also try to do one that is very important because of course in the Netherlands is very ambitious but we are also a very small country as you know and it's very important to share all the knowledge and information that we have and I also hope that the multinationals who have innovation at their disposal also share their best practices with for example as a means and I'm very happy to hear that L'Oreal also tries to share the information that they have with other partners and I think that is very helpful great and I hope we can come back to that some of the partnerships that you're developing building on the circular economy theme I mean as you'll better both you and Nicholas both your companies have made quite strong commitments to circular economy approaches you'll better start telling us a bit about your approach but do you want to add to that a bit of what you're doing at a more sort of systems level perfect we see circular economy as an opportunity for be more productive as a company a more profitable company we not see as an investment that we put because it's a lot of opportunity to use reuse the waste that we I give you an example because I think example is better than other things we invest in biodiesel what is the organic waste we have we produce biodiesel we are the largest biodiesel company with the waste in the world the second we are investing in recycled plastic 70% of the plastic is recyclable already in a plant it's all of this business it's an independent business we are not put as a part of the week we manage as an independent business there should be profitable and buy for one business buy for the other it's not anything that we give for free then wet the plastic we are not able to recycle because some plastic because it's a protection for the environment from the infrared light it's not possible to recycle then we produce what we call green floor we mix with cement we make floors and we use it as a floor the other one is an induce of peptidus we use the residuals that we have we produce collagen the other this is an independent company the other company we produce electric energy 20% of the energy we use in operation in Brazil is for biomass for our biomass we produce we recycle that then the other one because this is part of our business become the way to grow the business we invest and now it's up the bio fertilizer we produce bio fertilizer excellent really good examples of a circular model there back to you in terms of some of the business model innovations scope 3 has come up you've got some interesting activities in that area so we're doing some interesting things for consumers for businesses and then in our cloud business big energy user cloud so for consumers we stated at our investor day in December 2021 we stated as a goal something that was a 3 plus scope 3 plus initiative to take 1.5 gigatons of decarbonization by 2035 so 1.35 gigatons or 1.5 gigatons is about the equivalent of 350 million cars on the road for a year oh wow so just to put it in in terms that we can all relate to so how are we going to do that that's like a daunting number and we've committed to do that so from a consumer standpoint at billion consumers we're developing through technology an ability for consumers to measure their own carbon footprint what does that mean where are they traveling how are they traveling what are they eating what are they consuming on the platform so individual carbon footprint tracker is not operational yet but this is something that we're working on second thing we have set up on our platform products that will show what are the carbon emissions if you're buying them so people can look at what the carbon emission effect is of buying a certain product we're also setting up a green channel for only green products so those are three things that we're doing on the consumer side and they're pretty interesting and one of them is going to go into play particularly the green channel we're going to see how well it works in our big promotion for June so on June 18th when we do the promotion we'll be able to report next year what does that green channel look like and how fast is it growing second thing is businesses in the same way that we're producing something for consumers we're also creating a SaaS application for businesses so each business, large business small business will track their carbon footprint so this is not something that businesses would normally develop themselves because it's too expensive but at scale for 10 million small businesses in 250,000 brands we can do this and we can roll this out this is not about making money the purpose of this is not to make money for Alibaba it's the way that we can contribute to those G commitments and taking 1.5 gigatons off the platform and then I think the third thing is we call it green travel so we have within our business something called AMAP which is mapping so I think Google Maps or Waze plus travel destination business and so what we're going to do is allow people to first calculate the best route the most efficient route and also the most efficient form of transportation and then if they take advantage of those recommendations we'll give them bonus points that they can redeem elsewhere on our platform so they're incentivized to do the right thing even if they were provided with the opportunity to decide to do the wrong thing so these are just a few of the things that you're going to see I think very visibly on our platform in the future and that's the only way we can achieve that 2035 commitment the circular element also is a mutually reinforcing sort of incentivizing element but I am going to open up to a few questions just before I just want to quickly go to you all sort of role of empowering consumers a billion consumers and also if you could sort of say something about the Dutch plastic packed before we open up and I see there will be a lot of people so I'm only going to take you to one there one there and one there but we'll just hear from Nicholas first on consumer empowerment well I think as it was clearly stated by Michael you have to give consumers information that allows them to make educated choices in terms of products and also you have to help them understand how to change their behaviors because we can only be agents of change if consumers are also agents of change so typically two examples I would mention one which is very easy to understand on product usage we are developing refillable products more and more so instead of buying a shampoo bottle every time or a fragrance bottle every time you buy a beautiful packaging once and you get it refilled either at the store or buying a refill that you bring home and that's something that not only you have to make happen but you have to tell consumers about it and incentivize them about it so the fragrance if you just refill it is much cheaper than if you have to buy a new bottle so they have the best of both worlds saving the planet and their money and the other part as I was mentioning but I think it's worth elaborating a tiny bit on is this product information labeling that we call Beauty Echo Score that was developed with NGOs, with scientists in a way to stay within the planetary boundaries and really measure the full impact of a product so scope one, two and three and we've developed that tool we've started using it on some of our products and that's great about having many brands that you can start experimenting on one and then expanding it and then sharing it with our competition so when we had this tool we went to see first a couple of our competitors but that we know are very concerned about environment I'm thinking of Unilever with Alan Job who's here today in the forum I went to see him and said let's try to make this rather than a selfish tool that nobody will believe this is only L'Oreal and share it with the industry and we've created that consortium now 42 other players everybody's there almost and including retailers and that's the idea and we will offer hopefully when we all agree that's the hardest part we know about diplomacy but we're getting there we'll share it with the European Union as part of the Green Deal way measuring the impact of products and I think that's the best way to make things move forward and help consumers behave in an environmentally friendly manner Absolutely and I think for our audience there's a very interesting model that Nicholas has just outlined there's a pre-competitive business coalition and the companies are going to compete like crazy on the shelves and in the marketplace but creating that enabling environment in a pre-competitive way is I think a very exciting area forward they've been very quickly on the plastic the Dutch plastic packs are I think another good example of collective action and then we'll have three quick questions before closing Well what we want to do is we want to have plastic as much as we can from the system and put them back in recycling mode as much as we can but we try to do that also in a European way I think it is very important because I am advocating for cooperation between companies here but it's also very important to work together as governments so that is why we also do a lot with the European Union of course we share information on international platforms we are very happy with the work that we do together with the World Economic Forum we launched the circular economy for net zero industry transition initiative together with the World Economic Forum and it is very important to bring all partners in the value chain together that is really my main reason for also being here it is so important to talk to everyone I was talking to one of the people from the city bank and they are also very committed to investing in sustainable companies and that is also in the interest of companies in the end and if we team up our efforts and our knowledge we can make a much bigger impact absolutely so the convening power of diplomacy and the convening power of platforms I think is a great, great example now unfortunately I am only going to be at that lady at the back here your hand was up and then the two of you here so can you just and that gentleman it is a joint question so that lady over there, the two of you there and that gentleman and if you can make them be a short yeah of course I am Camilo Camilo from Global Shapers Community about the data we need to be transparent how it can your companies can share data about the consumers behavior and then the consumers will learn from themselves fantastic very key point your joint and you mentioned SMEs so I am happy to tell you I am representing SMEs here I have a second care manufacturing company I am based in Jerusalem and I am always trying to have responsible production and responsible manufacturing however I am always I always have the issue of the cost packaging sustainable packaging is double the price of regular packaging if I want to use boxes that are from recycled material the cost is double so I always have my procurement department saying no and I am saying yes even though that affects our margins clients even though they want to be responsible consumers going to need to make it quick because we are going to have to wrap out of policy they have the difference in prices and as in a small business it is hard for me to compare the prices I try but the others can't the other thing is I am very happy with the eco score because I suffer an ethical competition from people who just say greenwashing they put on their packages they are environmentally friendly the recyclable icon so I didn't get a chance to ask a question but that was my comment I am going to be very short directly to the point well we have three of the biggest clients of production here and also supplying you talk a lot about recycling and working with the problem that we have when it comes to waste my problem I think goes back to consumerism over consumerism how can you do you have a way to assure your spot on the market to have your profits and at the same way stop the huge amount of wastes in the global countries and markets for example when it comes to one third of food production is wasted every year same thing with make up that expires and people who buy a lot of make up will never use it do you have a solution for that supporting SMEs and supporting consumers for more responsible choice and sir if you could be very quick and then we will have just closing comment and hopefully some of the panelists can stay to answer the questions afterwards Ajit Gulabchit from India I'm in the engineering construction and real estate business but that's not what I'm talking about I'm asking a question of the dangers that come out of a race for going green look at Sri Lanka the government decided that they're going to do only organic farming and today they have such a big disaster they cannot feed their population and it has put a burden on everybody so in the race for going green governments industry as well as civil society may make demands that could go wrong like this unintended consequences yeah so how do we manage unintended consequences quite a range of questions there I'm just going to ask each of you to select one or two of them to respond to as your closing comments and as Mike has to leave us on the dotted 1130 Mike to the data question very complex question whether you're within a platform or within a company not a problem sharing data outside a company outside a country or outside a platform big problem best thing this is where our tracker of being green for consumers and businesses they get the data we'll give them the data so they don't have to get the data from an external source they can get the data from the platform that they're on so that's data where are you SMEs we love SMEs if you're having a problem with packaging come and talk to us we can help you out not so much with the mislabeling of your competitors but with the okay good Nicholas is the guy on overconsumption that's what Idlefish is Idlefish is designed to promote the buying and selling of secondhand products so that manufacturers don't keep producing more and more products or what Nicholas said they bring the bottle or the the item back so it can be refilled that's the key and on the last one in terms of I wish the race to go green was a bigger problem than the one that you're indicating in Sri Lanka we have a business in Sri Lanka I understand the problem but I think the real risk is the rest of the world doesn't go fast enough so I hear you on the risks but I think the big risk is everybody's too slow everybody else is too slow yeah yeah great thank you Gilberto no I think is the food waste we need to take all this the situation it's not make sense today one third of the population they're not eating enough and we lose one third of the food the map is simple we need to take all this this situation I totally agree with you and about sustainability organic is I think you talk about Sri Lanka I mentioned before two ways to produce more and to reduce the cost because affordability for me is the key affordability and healthy and taste product and otherwise it makes sense to eat because we as you mentioned before we speed a lot we weight a lot with the disease and should be healthy products great thank you to take it and you can discuss it further to manage the time is a challenge I'm always a challenge Nicholas closing comment from you and then I'll come to Viviana I'll be brief first of all on data we obviously can't share personal data from consumers on their own behavior that would be against any privacy law but what we can do is be transparent as Michael is saying about the environmental footprint of our products about the ingredients that we're using and let consumers make educated choices plus show them through advertising through tutorials how to behave more sustainably so I think that's the way to go as far as your problem with the cost of sustainable material it's true but A we do not have a choice but the choice we have is that you can reduce the packaging at the same time you're switching to more expensive materials if I take an example when we switch to PCR plastic for our shampoo bottles it's more costly but then we reduce the weight of plastic because when five years ago consumers wanted absolutely very thick heavy shiny plastic today if it's soft a bit it looks like a bit craft you know and I think it's good so you can actually the consumers are changing and you can offset your cost increases through probably reduction of the amount of packaging which is what we do and finally as far as waste is concerned and I'm not going to repeat everything Michael said but it's you know it's about again it's consumers choices and then refill recycle and use platforms such as Alibaba to make sure that things are not trashed or destroyed closing comment and call to action from you Bevin I think it's very important what you were talking about greenwashing so we have to look at objective quantification and we have to do that in cooperation with producers for example and I was at a meeting from PACE which is focused on looking into circular economy quantification and these are initiatives that are looking at objective quantification of data so that will definitely help and it is on the government's agenda not only in the Netherlands but greenwashing is something that we are very much aware of and we have to combat it because it's just not fair for producers who are really green and when it comes to your point about feeding the population for example we are going through a systemic change and that requires a big responsibility also from governments and one of our big challenges is to take everyone along in this systemic change and it means that we have to look at ways to do it step by step by not leaving people behind so I think this is a very important point of attention well thank you very very much very good product innovation systems model, business model innovation and then those partnerships between government and business thank you very much to the panel and thanks to our audience