 My name is Emma Markovich. I work at the National Archives. My role is Head of Archive Sector Development. And I'm lucky enough to be joined this morning by my colleague, Philip Gale, and also by Tim Crumplin from the Alfred Gillett Trust, who is here to talk to us about his experience. So the main thrust of this session is to give you an overview and a bit of context and background into a fund that we were able to launch earlier this year from the National Archives called the COVID Fund for Archives. Now, this was not something that we expected to be doing. We were very fortunate and pleased to get the funding. And we thought you would be interested in hearing something about our experiences of developing what that funding stream was going to look like, delivering it out and what our plans might be for the future. So I'm just going to give you a little bit of context for the COVID Fund for Archives. So, of course, the pandemic hit us all like a tonne of bricks, and we suddenly found ourselves working at home, our organisations closed down. No idea how long this situation might go on for. So pretty quickly, at the National Archives, we ran an impact survey across the sector. We wanted to try and get an understanding, some quite fast and some quite high level information about what the level of risk was going to be for this situation. So both two collections, also what the risk might be to staff and plans for access arrangements, what kind of levels of furlough we were seeing across the sector, where they might be highest, what was the risk of long-term closures. So just to really try and get a picture of that, a snapshot for that moment in time, really, we thought was quite important. So we ran that survey. Thank you all very much. Those of you who participated, it was really very useful. There were also, of course, a lot of worries about forced or accelerated closure or downsizing, particularly in the business part of the sector. Now, of course, that is still potentially quite a high risk, but certainly, I think at the time of the initial lockdown, it was something everybody was extremely alive to, what was going to happen. Would we see fast pace collapse? And then, of course, from our perspective, what happens to those collections, then the archives of those businesses? So we were very, very alive to that. We had had some recent experience of securing the Thomas Cook archive, prior to COVID hitting, of course. And that proved a very useful up-to-date model and way of understanding what the costs might be of having to go in at quite short notice and save collections where the business might collapse. So we worked very closely with the crisis management team, as we always have done, to keep a very close eye on those businesses and try and understand what's coming, what's on the horizon. Debenhams and Arcadia Group were particularly high-profile examples, of course, but there are many, many others on a national and regional level. So the work of the crisis management team did actually grow hugely over the course of the year, as you can imagine, unfortunately. And then finally, I suppose, we were also quite concerned about private and deposited collections and the potentially accelerated risk of some of those being sold or removed from archive services. And we were very aware that that was a risk that might very quickly accelerate an increase. And we were also very aware, of course, that National Lottery Heritage Fund and Arts Council in England were quickly dispersing their cultural recovery funds for the wider cultural heritage sectors, and that there, of course, as ever going to be some areas of those funds that archives might fall through the gaps. So we took all of these pieces of evidence and we turned it into a business case that we sent out to Her Majesty's Treasury and we were awarded £500,000 from the Treasury immediately and that was to spend specifically in grants out across the sector for collections at risk as a result of the pandemic. And we had a very, very quick turnaround on that. So the money had to be out of the door by the end of March, I think, gave us the Christmas period really to develop what that fund was going to look like and think about administratively how we were going to distribute it. We are lucky as well in that we have experience of distributing grants from the National Archives. As you know, we have our Archives Revealed Programme. We have a team, Lucy and Beth, who probably some of you have met so far at this conference who are very experienced in doing that. And we were also very fortunate that we had Philip and his team to think through from the collections at risk side where they have a lot of experience. So with that in mind, I'm going to hand you over to Philip who's going to tell you a little bit more detail about the operational management of the fund and some of the evidence we have gathered as a result of it. Let me explain. I'm going to very briefly give an overview of the fund. Some of the statistics from the fund and some of our plans for the future. The fund who was launched just before Christmas and the deadline was in the middle of January, bearing in mind that this was not exactly the best time to launch a fund. We received 85 eligible applications from across the United Kingdom. The fund was over subscribed by a ratio of one to four with approximately two million pounds being sought for a total of 500,000 pounds, which incidentally TNA in fact topped up with an additional 7,000 pounds. The fund was resulted in 25 grants being awarded to a variety of recipients across the United Kingdom. Details of the fund can be found published on our website and you will see the address on the slide. If we can go to slide number three, please. The interesting thing about these statistical aspects is that 23 of the applicants who had archived service accreditation, 62 applicants did not. An interesting statistic that suggests where perhaps the greatest vulnerabilities are. The fund was essentially to assist with any risk faced by a collection and it funded a variety of interventions including emergency storage, dealing with contaminated records and in one case a record, two cases record surveys and vulnerable records. The funds were distributed as follows. We received, well first of all, we received 66 applications from England, two from Northern Ireland, 16 from Scotland and one for Wales. Of those eligible applications, 40 came from non-public sector applicants, 45 came from public sector applicants. Interestingly, the grants were divided between public sector bodies got 15 grants and the non-public sector bodies got 10 grants. If we could go to slide number four, please. I think what is interesting looking at the grants is the way they were distributed. The grants in the end, we had sent 20 went to England, one to Northern Ireland, one to Wales and three to Scotland. And it is interesting that the local authorities received, 12 local authorities received grants, depending on how you define the local authority archive. Business and charities received a fair number of eight. We had no overt business archive grants as such with Alfred Gillett Trust being technically a charity and we had one religious organisation. But what was very clear is that the risk faced by vulnerable collections are very much focused outside the public sector in the initial phase of the pandemic. I think what the pandemic tells us is that the differential impact of the pandemic across the archive sector is there very clearly. Arts, business and charity archives are broadly much more vulnerable than public funded applicant funded collections in the first instance. It may well be with public expenditure plans that that story may shift. There is also the pandemic like and so much else of public and national life. It has highlighted existing inequalities of capacities and resources between different parts of the archive sector, whether by region, organisational type or credited status. And so unsurprisingly, it is the non accredited archives that have been facing the greatest risk. And the other pandemic impact clearly is the pace of change the pace of change has increased with the pandemic. We shift to digital collections and access. If we go to slide number five, please. I think what our experience of this fund has shows that there is a distinct structural need for two types of funding. One is for rescue acquisitions for vulnerable collections, where rapid intervention is required at short notice. And I should be saying a bit more about that later. And the other is perhaps what could be described as resilience funding to mitigate the risks that arise from inadequate premises, workforce skills and wider service capacities, which may have some resonances with the more broader national agenda for levelling up. And above all, there's probably also a need for a better mapping and coordination of other sources of funding. And with this in mind, we in TNA are looking at the evidence we've collected from the applications to the COVID-19, COVID archives and COVID-19 fund. And indeed our autumn and spring surveys of COVID impacts across the archive sector last year to see if there is a case to be made to Treasury for a post pandemic resilience fund. But clearly that is something that may or may not happen in the future. If we go to slide number five, please. However, we do have plans to create something. Right, yes, we can move to slide number six. We are having plans, however, to do something about the immediate need for rescue funds and now with discussions with the British Records Association as a pilot project to set up a rescue acquisitions fund. This fund will be eligible for vulnerable collections across the whole United Kingdom and it's clearly there for emergency funding for such as cleaning, conservation costs, storage and transport costs associated with a collection that's facing an immediate peril. A nice example of a recent example of such an intervention which happened with the assistance of the British Records Association and the Business Archives Council was the movement of the majority of the Arcadia group archives from their London offices up to Leeds where the costs were actually supported by the BAC and the BRA. And that's the sort of intervention we hope to be able to fund. As I say, we hope to launch this fund in autumn 2021. There is quite a lot that we could do with, I think, the data to get a better understanding of where the risks lie. But I think the headline is that clearly collections that have not got the protection of Archives Service Cretation and those particularly vulnerable to the impacts of the pandemic and the charities in the business community and indeed some private collections where owners are no longer got that visitor-based income very real and indeed some of the consequences of the pandemic may become more apparent as we move to the post-pandemic phase and we will see which businesses and charities thrive and which ones may falter. That's enough for me. I'm going to introduce you to Tim Crumplin who's going to give you the recipients experience of the fund and how he found it as a fund to go with as a recipient. Thank you very much, Philip. I was intending to share with you a representation of the institution, the collection that I work for or with, our predicament, our application and our intended outputs as a consequence of being applied for the fund and being successful in receiving some money. As an employer of the Afro-Gillet Trust, the Afro-Gillet Trust is a charitable institution that operates from the Grange in Street. It's a great two-listed building in Somerset and the trust itself was established by the Clark family. They established the trust for three main reasons. Firstly, to care for the internationally significant business archive that spans seven generations of a Quaker family shoe firm, C&J Clark, which is known more generically as Clark's or to many people as Clark's shoes and is represented on the high street in most major conurbations. It's also an international shoe business now that trades globally. It's a global name. We also created the trust or the trust has been created to a whole collection to pertain to its host community, which is Street. And Street in Somerset is a model industrial town, which has kind of grown up around the factory pretty much. This particular representation is probably not the best one of a model town, but I wanted to show you the proximity to Glastonbury and hopefully, in so doing, people have a better idea of where that is geographically as Street, with the exception of a shoe manufacturing is a fairly small place. And finally, the trust was established by the Clark family to preserve the collections of the Clark family itself. So as Quakers, as non-conformists, they were very active in educational and social reform, the abolition of slavery, suffrage, temperance, those kinds of activities. And it's those collections that we want to also increase accessibility to and encourage researchers to come and work with. So in terms of our relationship with the TNA, the Africa Get It Trust benefited from a fairly proactive approach. We were very lucky in the early stages of the pandemic. In fact, I think this coincided purely by chance. Our development manager for the Southwest, Tim Powlett, actually communicated with us and said that he would like to visit in January 2020 and that he was going to try and put us into contact with some regional network contacts like Georgie Salcedo and Philippa Turner, and that they wanted to come to the trust in March 2020. So we were all quite excited by this. Obviously, March 2020 didn't happen. We went into lockdown, I think it was March the 16th, and remained in lockdown for most of the subsequent year. The initial communication, I suspect, from Tim had probably been provoked by the fact that the trust had actually advertised for a collections manager at this point. And we were actually beginning to engage as part of that appointment in a project to empty the contents of a 300-foot X shoe components factory that we have in Castle Carey, which we've been using as a remote storage facility, and we've kind of broken up into sections. This storage facility we'd had for about 20 years, and we were using it to accommodate three sections of shoe machinery, footwear collections, but also a fairly substantial business archive. Now, it was fairly poorly suited to storage for heritage purposes, as you can see, it's a single-skin building. It's got a tin roof, and it has a river running beneath it, a stream running beneath it. Sometimes the stream runs through it, but more often than not, it's just beneath. We also have a fragility about the building, certainly in terms of the heating system, but also the very fabric of the building. And this had prompted the trust to start removing material from the building in 2019 in small areas where we had specific problems. So as you can see here, fairly significant water ingress. Work wasn't supposed to begin in a concerted sense though until 2020, and following the appointment of the collections management, this was prevented by lockdowns. We had furlough as well for quite a few staff members, including myself, off and on. So we weren't able to make the progress that we needed to make in 2020. The situation was compounded as well by the terminal failure of the heating system. I actually went up to Castle Carey during lockdown just to check on it, and was fairly alarmed to witness this. I think the thermostat had failed, and the machine was actually glowing red. So we had to intervene and lock off all heating, which prompted the rapid degeneration of the facility during the following winter period, and culminated in a further threat to the collections. So whilst that was happening to the physical collections themselves, we had additional problems too, in that Business Archive had been deposited on loan from Clarks, who acted or act very much as one of the trust's principal stakeholders. They provide income through shares. The dividends that crew off of those helps to finance the trust, but also in payment of an ongoing service charge for services that we provide them with. And I think with Clarks, it raised concerns within the trust, because as a retail company, Clarks struggled. I mean, they'd been forced to close their retail outlets for most of 2020, as most high street businesses had been forced to close their outlets. And there were redundancies and rumours that Clarks would be sold, which raised even further concerns within the trust as to what might happen to the collections. And this characterised most of 2020. The purchase of Clarks by Lion Rock Capital actually only occurred in late December 2020. So throughout that period, as I say, we were quite concerned about the collections, but it was actually latterly in the very sort of late stages of December 2020 that the trust managed to purchase the business collection from Clarks as part of the Lion Rock Capital transaction. So that kind of provides some context and sort of the backdrop to how or when the TNA launched its COVID-19 archives fund. And that seemed to us at least a very sort of pragmatic approach to an unprecedented situation and offered as much needed support at a time when we most needed it. I think it targeted short notice work, and it was obviously a crisis fund, and it was kind of set up very much as a crisis fund, which suited our situation. And it wasn't limited by what we could ask for or what the money might be spent upon, but it was very much a salvage fund as far as we could see. And we'd now found ourselves very much in a salvage situation where we kind of planned a very measured approach to salvaging this collection in 2019-2020. We were now in a situation where we had to move the collection quite quickly. As Philip has also said, the eligibility criteria was very good for us because it wasn't explicitly dependent upon accreditation, and it gave us an opportunity to apply as an institutional archive with, you know, it was connected to a record-creating body. I think also, it was tailored, as as Philip has said, very much towards the charity and their private records at risk in the public domain area, which to my mind was acknowledgement of the threat that was being faced by smaller institutions such as ourselves. Now, as an applicant to the fund, I found that the eligibility criteria was both well-defined and well-executed. The amount of money available was well-suited, too, in that it wasn't a huge amount of money, but it wasn't a small amount of money either, so it actually made it very flexible, very kind of fluid and very fast to kind of enact which was exactly what we needed at the time. The application process, while simple, was also well-supported. So as I've mentioned, Tim Powell, he was very good. He actually initiated correspondence with me when the fund was launched. We'd actually considered going for it, and we thought we probably would, but I think him communicated with me and saying that I'm aware of the problems that you're encountering, and I suspect this fund would actually be very, very useful to you, was very good for me because as a small institution, we've got a very small collections team. We're very kind of practically focused. Bidwriting, fundwriting isn't something that anybody has kind of within their job description, really. But in being able to go to my line manager and sort of saying that we'd also been encouraged to apply by TNA, I think that gave me much needed kind of support in being able to convince her that it was time well spent. I think she would have supported it anyway, but it certainly didn't obstruct the issue. And as well, Philip, as head of standards and improvement, was very good. I mean, I had a 30-minute pre-application meeting where they basically allowed me to pour my heart out for 10 minutes and tell them of my situation and then spent 20 minutes very sensibly, like discussing my eligibility, how I might frame an application and when I had to have applied by, which for me was an invaluable sort of 30 minutes. It wasn't limited to what I might apply for either and it accommodated all the practicalities of saving my collection, which was very good. I found the process of applications of praise were also very streamlined. So by the time we'd actually submitted the application, I think we only had to wait for it, something like a month, six weeks, to actually know whether we'd been successful in our application. And there was also a very rapid authorization of funds. Philip kind of prompted me on criticisms and I don't really have a great many. I think the only thing I could come up with was the accountability element and whether that might be developed either going through the project or at the end of the project. But having said that, I think I've had such effective assistance from my TNA regional representative and they've already said that they would like to visit as soon as conditions, circumstances permit. The likelihood is that overarching level of, I sort of call it surveillance will happen anyway. So that was also very good. Moving on to the application itself and what we applied for, as the trust we applied for funding to purchase to decommissioned or refrigerated insulated 40-foot shipping containers. And we wanted to locate these in the grounds of the Grange and Streets so that we could provide a facility that we could transfer the archive collections from Castle Carry to and process them ready for a shift into the archive. I mean, we kind of wanted to use shipping containers specifically because we realized that we could install them quickly to remove the collection from the poor environment at Castle Carry as quickly as possible. And this was kind of, as I say, now is the priority, it's just getting the material out of the environment it's in and trying to put it into more stable conditions where we can quarantine and repackage the collection in a more controlled environment. We also wanted to try and improve accessibility with the greater versatility on our main site where we can actually enact social distancing and we've got additional amenities to allow staff and volunteers as well importantly to come to return safely back to site. We can actually increase the number of people on the project and we can also accelerate its progress as a consequence. And we can also position these storage containers close or join them to our purpose-built archive. So actually that processing and that transition into the archive should be that much easier. But we also wanted to incorporate some of the sustainability into our project too. So we were keen to relocate the collection, the business collection to streets so that it would aid outreach. We wanted to implement a predefined business hierarchy so that we could make the collection more accessible and start to catalog it or improve the cataloging of the collection to make it more accessible. We also want to develop the trust profile and make the collection more accessible to academia. That was one of the big pushes really. These collections, a lot of it hasn't been shared with the general public either the family collections or the business collection. And this is one of our kind of key criteria. That's what we wanted to contribute to the sector. So the use of shipping containers, particularly in disaster areas and as a kind of a disaster response. And when I was actually formulating my application, I'd seen very sort of scant research really. So there's a little bit by Ted Ling, which is he's produced a really good article, probably nearly 20 years old now. But with the exception of that, the only thing I came across was a research poster that had been used at a conference by Fuentes and Griswold. And we really wanted to be able to contribute to that understanding of the use of our storage containers in the storage of heritage collections and contribute to the sector by doing so. And we've also considered ways that the shipping containers might be repurposed for outreach activities or exhibitions moving into the future. So those were the reasons why we applied for the money. And I've also tried to outline how we're going to use the money. I think as conclusions, it's been a good introduction to us in terms of funding applications for a fledgling organization. We haven't really applied for money in the past, but I think we see this now as a launchpad to be able to actually start to fashion bids moving forward and funding applications. I think as well, it allows us to, it's a precursor to applications for more established opportunities like archives revealed, which is something that we've already touched upon this morning. I think it's probably raised our institutional confidence as well. And it's certainly made us start to consider the prospect of beginning the process of accreditation as an organization, which was something that we've always considered. But I think now it's something that we will probably push on with. And I think as well, finally, the last thing, I think is acknowledgement of the assistance that was given us to us by TNA and the ongoing assistance that they provide in terms of the provision of advice and training for funding applications. And I think that's something that's obviously been identified as something that's quite important, particularly for smaller or fledgling trusts or heritage organizations with archives. But yeah, that's it from me and I'm assuming we'll go back to Emma. Thank you. Absolutely brilliant, Tim. Thank you so much. It was really, really helpful to get that very kind of detailed walkthrough and you touched on so many issues that I think have been brought around by this fund and the experience that we've all had as applicants and as the lead organization in delivering it. So there's an awful lot of ways in which this conversation could go, I think. I would just like to pick up on something that you said and that I think Philip might want to just say a couple of words on, which is about how we kind of measure the impact. That's obviously going to be really very important in helping us build the case for further funding going forward is what actual impact have these current projects had and how we work with you going forward to evaluate and show what that looks like. And I know Philip has got a kind of a process in mind for doing that. But also just to say one of the other things that that's brought out as you said very strongly in your presentation is that you might not have been the type of organization we would usually have worked with and some of the experiences you've had of kind of led you to think quite differently about applying for accreditation and applying for funding and so on in the future. And that's something else that's really positive and I think a real learning experience for us at the National Archives as well in terms of thinking about the types of organizations that we traditionally work with and how this experience might change that too. So sorry, Philip, I don't know if you wanted to add anything there. Yes, just to say that we do have an evaluation plan and this will be news for the grantees but we are going to hold a webinar in the next month with we'll invite all the grantees to attend where we'll explain what we hope to do. We're going to send out a monitoring form and then we're going to hold interviews with each of the grantees to go through the form with them. And on that basis, we will probably visit a select number of the accreditation. This is very important because our credibility with our auditors, more importantly with the government, means it's important that we are seen to be spending public money effectively and in monitoring the impacts. And this will also feed into the evidence base for making the case for more funding in the future. And there's also the possibilities for one or two case studies perhaps to become more accessible with the agreement of those grantees. And they are very varied. We are talking from Will Martin Trust in Cornwall right up to the Ballast Trust in Scotland as well. So we are talking a wide range. So we have very much on the case and there'll be further developments in the next two days. Fantastic, thank you very much. Okay, so I'm going to turn to the questions in the Q&A. Please keep them coming in. We do have a little bit of time. And as I say, there are an awful lot of kind of things and ways in which this conversation could go. Absolutely brilliant question from Mary McKenzie who says, given Philip's point about non-accredited archive services and collections being more at risk, can you tell us what support is available to help services become accredited? And are there any thoughts on funding for this purpose? So I do think that's a great question. So I do think that's an absolutely great question because obviously accreditation is at the core of so much of what we do. And we are absolutely clear from the start that we don't want to disadvantage any organisations who are not in a position to go for accreditation. I think that's why it's so important and interesting to hear Tim's point about now kind of that Alfred Gillett Trust will be thinking much more in those terms and about going for that. I think accreditation as a process on the one hand is an awful lot of work but on the other hand it's really about trying to see that work as part of a process that could take as long as it takes in many ways and is a way in which the organisation can really help itself by putting in place some of those policies and practices that feed into the final accreditation application. So I think we're trying as an accreditation committee to really kind of make those points at the moment. We've been really aware that there's also a discrepancy across regions as well, across Scotland and Wales and that kind of national level as well. And even those organisations who are thinking about accreditation who are perhaps already accredited, even those organisations are wondering how they can resource this process. So it's a very, very live conversation at the level of the committee. And certainly there's a high level of awareness that there are organisations who will not feel that they are in a position to apply. And I think that it's one of the things that we want to do and one of the things we've talked about a lot is this point about changing the way we think about accreditation in many ways. And I think that aligns quite closely with the Arts Council and the approach they're taking from museums accreditation process as well, which is really about using this as a process to get everything in place over time, which will be a huge help to your organisation in many, many ways. I don't know if there's anything you wanted to add to that, Philip. Well, obviously our regional team are there to help, as Tim says, our regional teams are very active agents in encouraging accreditation and supporting people through accreditation. And maybe one possible aspect of any resilience funding that we might be put together maybe is some financial support in helping people move towards accreditation. It's very encouraging the experience of the fund is making people feel that accreditation is useful because it is the ultimate risk mitigation measure available. If you're accredited to Archive, you've got some protection by being a point to a framework that makes it harder for your employer or organisation to just ignore the archive or disinvest from it. So it's extremely important that we try and support accreditation, particularly as it reaches a mature stage of its development because it's now about eight years old and it has all the challenges of digital as well to look forward to. Yeah, that's true. Of course, it's a constantly moving process and you're absolutely right. The regions team at National Archives are amazingly helpful, a huge source of support. And I also want to say by way of a shout out and a thanks to Philip as well that he has been extraordinary in the process of this fund. At one point, I think you had at least 60 conversations with organisations trying to help them. I had over 100 meetings. So it's an amazing thing. Thank you. Okay, so the next question. This one is for you, Tim, I think, really. Did the Alfred Gillett Trust have any problems getting quotations for goods and services they wanted to include in the bid, given that suppliers were also experiencing disruption? Well, we basically went out to... I mean, what we do as part of the process anyway would be to get three quotes, I'm assuming, for all of the work that we wanted. But one of the things is the change of cost, I think, of things currently. So I remember one of our trustees smiling at me and saying, well, you've done really well there because you've asked for storage containers, which at the moment, everybody wants storage containers or they're stuck in docks. So the price of those is changeable. I mean, I had to kind of estimate a storage container in the end because the storage container suppliers were effectively saying, we'll only give you three days. I think it was even less than that, actually, for a quote. You know, it wouldn't stand for any longer than that because prices were so fluid. And then obviously we've had price changes with raw materials, with builders, with our contractors, groundsmen. So yeah, there were issues. It wasn't so much a problem. I mean, the storage container quotations were quite easy to get because obviously they were distance, but usually with their groundwork, it was a case of needing to get somebody on site to assess the site, which was hard because it was a closed facility. So luckily, most of the people with photographs, we were able to get individuals to give us quotes. So that was quite lucky. They could quote on site pretty much. I mean, they've been on site since just to verify that they can do what they've promised to do within the realms of what they propose to charge. But yeah, I mean, it has been a bit fluid. And certainly in terms of what we asked for and what we will now have to spend, that has changed to some degree, but it's kind of absorbable. I think that was one of my principal concerns, I think, when I applied just how much prices have changed. I think storage containers had changed, say for example, 10% to 15% within the space of actually putting the request in and then actually going back to pay for a storage container. So yeah, the point, yeah, it was a very good question, very stupid question and it has been a problem. Thank you. And we certainly had feedback from other applicants as well. In some cases, they couldn't even get quotes. So we were aware as part of the process that that was an issue and tried to be flexible accordingly, I think. Okay, did you want to add anything, Philip? If you did, you've probably got about a minute. Well, let me just say this has been enormously much a team effort, not just within TNA, but right across the sector. And it has been a strong learning curve and we very much want to build for the future on this so that we don't just leave it as a one-off. So hopefully you'll be hearing more about our collections of risk work in the years to come. No, absolutely, it's all ongoing, very live, very much on our radar, very much a concern and I agree it's been an absolutely great experience in terms of working with new organisations, hearing from Tim today really kind of does underline how this fund has actually been able to be so supportive in many other ways than just actually giving money for a particular bit of intervention work. So I think that's been a really important thing to draw out from this conversation and thank you very much.