 Good afternoon and thank you for joining us. I'm Adam Mendelssohn, a professor of history at the University of Cape Town and the author of The Jewish Soldiers in the Civil War at Union Army recently published by New York University Press. This book drew on an extraordinary new resource, the Chappelle Roster for American Jewish service during the Civil War, assembled for more than a decade by a team of researchers working at the National Archives and other repositories. Our program will begin with a brief introduction to the Chappelle Roster by Adrian D'Armas, the head of the research team, will describe how the roster can be used by scholars and students of the Civil War, as one of those whose ancestors fought in Union and Confederate uniform. After the introduction to the roster, our program will turn to the war itself, asking what was it like to be a Jewish soldier in Lincoln's armies. In this discussion, I'll be joined by Professor Jenna Weisman-Joslet, the Charles E. Smith Professor of Judaic Studies and Professor of History at the George Washington University. A distinguished scholar, Professor Joseph has written widely about the relationship between material culture and identity, including important work and how Jews have creatively adapted and contributed to American culture. The everyday experiences of Jewish soldiers during the Civil War, as well as how Jews adapted to the challenges of the wartime environment and military life. We'll start, however, by turning our attention to the Chappelle Roster. Thank you, Adrian. Thank you so much, Adam. On behalf of the Chappelle Manuscript Foundation, I want to thank all of you for attending the National Archives Museum and the National Archives Foundation for hosting this program. And the of Wieseltier for bringing us all together today. I also want to acknowledge the countless staff members, both past and present at Archives One. From Trevor Plant and Dennis Edeland to the Archives Technicians and Specialists in the Military Reference Branch, Central Research and Microfilm Rooms. Your knowledge and dedication to helping us find those are defined documents for more than a decade, by the way, has been critical to our mission. This would have been an impossible undertaking without you. Because of Benjamin Chappelle's vision, Arianne Wiesel-Margulet's leadership, and the research conducted by Caitlin Winkler, Alex Zepito, Bonnie Zulu, and Janice Parente, the Chappelle Roster redefines how we look at Jews in the American Civil War. Adam Mendelssohn's outstanding job of transforming the data we've been amassing into such engaging and thought-provoking prose is proof of this. I speak for all the Chappelle Roster researchers when I say we love what we do. Sure, there's the surge of adrenaline when a Hale Moses request for a pension file yields a new name for the roster. But we also feel a deep sense of responsibility. History remembers some of the soldiers and sailors we research. Descendants remember their ancestors, but for the boys and men who serve their country in its darkest hour, yet have no descendants or didn't leave footprints in the historical record, if we don't remember them, who will? And finally, if you know of a Jewish Civil War soldier or sailor, we hope you'll contact us at roster. Next slide, please. Next slide. Sorry. There we go. Okay. So, who was Simon Wolf? What do you need to know about him? And why are we reappraising his magnum opus? Briefly, Simon Wolf was a Bavarian-born immigrant who became a Washington D.C.-based social justice warrior. He advised multiple U.S. presidents on Jewish-related topics. His legacy, a book entitled The American Jew as Patriot, Soldier, and Citizen, was created in response to anti-Semitic rhetoric about Jewish patriotism or the lack thereof. Published in 1895, it included more than 8,000 names of soldiers and sailors who served in the American Civil War. As you can see, it was predominantly a somewhat alphabetical list of names and regiments with the occasional detail such as Victor Perley, 7th Infantry, killed at Chancellorsville. For Ben Chappelle and other collectors with an interest in both the Civil War and American Jewish history, it was an invaluable resource, but it wasn't very user-friendly and it wasn't 100% reliable. So the idea of what would become the Chappelle roster was born. Next slide, please. When I first started on this project in 2011, the assignment was to confirm military service for the names in Wolf's book and add any he overlooked. Scholars believe that if any of the names were not Jewish, the number was so insignificant as to not be worth our time and effort to check. Another seed of doubt about this assumption was planted by a Massachusetts soldier named Henry Marks, who was brought up on charges for stealing a ham for his personal use. The next clue came from an obituary for the mother of a Pennsylvania soldier named Philip Halpin. It stated that she'd, quote, lived a true Christian life, end quote, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, our research has determined that 10% and counting of the names from Wolf's book are definitively not Jewish. So as it turns out, not so insignificant after all. Now this is not surprising, given that the name that name profiling was considered a sound research methodology at that time. Next, if we were to create a solid foundation for the future study of American Jewish history, Wolf's 19th century work needed a 21st century upgrade. Next slide, please. So how do we do what we do carefully and collaboratively. We have two mandates, obtain proof of military service and evidence a soldier was Jewish. It's usually pretty straightforward, but proving that someone who lived more than 150 years ago was Jewish is a bit trickier, whereas not all resources are equally reliable. We look for evidence of religion in cemeteries, newspapers, archives, genealogical websites, and even military records. Aside from Union pension records, one of our best resources is descendants. So if you or someone you know, has a Jewish ancestor who is in America, circa 1860, please contact us. If they served, we want to include them in the roster. In addition to vetting the names in Wolf, we add the names he omitted. To date, we've added more than 1500. And now that we're focusing on the Confederacy, that number is increasing exponentially. So I'm talking about numbers. Allow me to address the most often asked question we received. How many Jews served in the Civil War. The reality is the answer changes every day between new additions and finding proof that a name from Wolf was actually Jewish. The Chappelle roster is constantly being updated. More importantly, numbers tell us nothing about these men. Remember how Wolf listed Victor Perley killed at Chancellorsville. Here's what the Chappelle roster has for Victor Perley affidavits from his mother, a photo and more background information from his cousin, a family tree and the register of his birth from a synagogue in hungry courtesy of a descendant. I met on ancestry.com who didn't know that Victor had immigrated to America and died at the battle of chances. Much more than a military role of honor, the Chappelle roster soldier pages contain the carefully collected details of their lives and our favorite feature, the connections between them. Whether they married a fellow soldier sister, maintained a lifelong friendship with someone they once shared a tent with or served with their brothers, fathers and cousins. After a decade of being immersed in their lives, I can tell you that not every one of them left footprints in the historical record. But when they did, we found them to be brave heroes and cowardly deserters, pillars of their communities and criminals. And while some died much too young, many others were celebrated centenarians. Getting to know each and every one of them has been a privilege and a pleasure as has been here with you today. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Adrian. Now, we're going to turn our attention to discussing the book which drew heavily on the magnificent work of Adrian and her team. And it's a book titled Jewish Soldiers in the Civil War, which looks at the everyday experience of Jewish soldiers. The first of what will be a two part series a second, we'll look at the experience of Jews in the Confederate armies. I'm ready to roll. Okay, so let's start wide and then narrow things down as we go along. So as you know, over the years, those of us who study and teach modern Jewish history have come increasingly to see military matters and warfare as pivotal themes in modern Jewish history. The Napoleonic Wars, Russian conscription practices, the Dreyfus affair, World War One, and of course World War Two, and even the Israeli wars of independence loom extremely large. My question then is, would you add the Civil War to that roster of landmark events in Jewish history, or to put it another way, would you constitute the Civil War as a Jewish phenomenon, not just an American one. My question, and as you correctly point out, there has been much new attention to war and military service in Jewish history, particularly in modern Jewish history. But interestingly, the, even as scholars have written about, particularly the European context and increasingly in a recent context experience of Jews in the military. And again, there has been attention in the United States to the First World War and the Second World War. The Civil War has remained this interesting anomaly. There has been, there's an older literature about Jews and war better but serious scholars for the most part have steered clear of the war. It's a, again, somewhat surprising, giving the centrality of the war to American history more broadly. And I think one of the things that this book argues makes an argument for, for putting the war back into American Jewish history in a number of ways. One to gain drawing on the work of the Ross to reveal how the war affected the lives of Jewish soldiers who enlisted and again revealing how many Jewish soldiers didn't list but also looking at the the legacies of the war for the American American Jewish community community. Previously, the dominant way of understanding American Jewish history was really to think about the waves of immigration, Jewish immigration to the United States. Again, looking initially at Saudi immigration during the colonial period then a German Jewish immigration immigrants from from Central Europe in the mid 19th century, and then looking at Eastern European migration really from the 1880s onwards. And the civil war really fitted uncomfortably within this Jewish understanding of, of a understanding of American history focused on Jews, really falling between Eastern European migration and German Jewish migration. And I argue in this book that that the war has consequences, which which certainly are very, very important, well beyond the warriors themselves really a watch, which to understand American Jewish history properly should be under should be received appropriate attention. Could you, could you elaborate a little bit further, at least on one or two of those larger implications of the war. And also while you're thinking about that. Could you say a little bit more to about why historians have steered clear. I'm sure it goes beyond the historiographic conventions might there be some other ulterior motive. Both those are good questions so certainly to the first question about some of the legacies of the war. The whole number of ways that the war affects the American Jewish population, but to in particular really stand out. One of those are the economic consequences of the war that Jews have been on the margins of the American economy prior to the war for a variety of reasons, particularly connected with a subject that you've written about the government industry that it really provides opportunities for Jews to move from from really peripheral economic roles to to more central roles so we see after the war at Jews really getting getting a foothold within the government industry, and then beginning a meteoric rise within the government industry as Eastern European Jews begin to arrive later so it really transforms the economic position of Jews. We don't see for the most part, for example prominent Jewish bankers prior to the war, after the war we begin to see this phenomenon emerge again as a result of the economic transformations in some ways opportunities of the war that that presents to to Jews. That's one consequence and the other which is not unrelated to it is that again during the war itself we see the emergence of a whole variety of forms of the acceleration of a variety of forms of of prejudice and discrimination. And certainly, we see that with anti semitism as well that anti semitism certainly predates the war, but the war changes in a variety of ways that that we see particularly in the first year of the war. There are scandals around military contracting the American military grows from the small professional army of 15,000 strong before the war into this, an army the Union army will have more than two million men in uniform by the end of the war. So it's an enormous growth of the military and therefore a rush to provide all sorts of things which which soldiers needs uniforms, armaments, etc. And, and there's a free fall in the particular first year of the war, and the press, which is much agitated by by the, the, the poor standards of the goods which are supplied the shoddy. For example, which is supplied that we see a casting around for a villain and and do and contract to become interchangeable terms in that first year of the war, even though again Jews are a minority amongst those who are supplying the military and certainly behaving differently from anyone else, but certainly it creates the seed from which grows during the war, quite venomous forms of anti semitism which then will develop during the war into for example general grants notorious general orders number 11 and other episodes which, which, again, will recede initially once the war is over but but I think the seed is planted and and we see a recurrence of anti semitism, this new form of anti semitism particularly in the 1870s 1880s once Eastern European Jews begin to arrive. So, to other question again a very good question about why historians have steered clear largely steered clear of Jews in the civil war professional stories. There are some certainly very good scholars who have written about about subject. There's very good work by Bertram corn way back in the 1950s on this, and more recently around the sesquicentennial of the war. And there are a number of scholars have have returned to the war as well written about Lincoln, written about a grant, etc so that so there is certainly a new interest. I think in some ways, it reflects a number of factors ironically reflects something which I think which which Adrian described earlier which is the prominence of work by enthusiastic amateurs early on by by those who are interested in counting Jewish historians to the war and listing a Jewish servicemen. And this was I think in many cases quite off quitting to professional historians were looking for a serious subject. Didn't want to be involved in apologetics or celebration of Jewish service, and instead, therefore steered clear. Likewise what I mentioned earlier plays a role to that American Jewish historians approached American Jewish history with a particular perspective about waves of immigration and again the warden quite fits there they're thinking either. Okay. Fair enough so let's just shift the landscape a little bit away from Jewish historiographic concerns to American ones more generally. Fair enough to tell you that the landscape of Civil War studies is literally huge. There are battlefields and cemeteries and monuments and heaps of secondary sources and mountains of primary source documentation. So how then Adam, did you manage to find your way and charge your course and develop the themes that dominate and inhabit your beautiful book that can't have been an easy couldn't have been an easy process. So what helped the the process of writing this book was very much what you described that even though the literature on Jews was was was thin or uneven and actually very little serious work done on particularly the everyday experiences of Jewish soldiers, but really there's a wonderful literature very and growing literature on the experience of soldiers more broadly that's on the one hand on the other hand, and there's a growing literature and getting a very strong literature on on the experience of different ethnic and racial groups during the war as well. So the work on on the experience of German soldiers, Irish soldiers, African Americans on also a variety of religious groups during during the war. And the reason I found that literature very useful is both in terms of, of using as a mechanism to think about the questions I should ask of Jews, but also then another crucial element which was comparative that that, in other words to try and work out how if at all Jews were different when it came to a variety of factors. It was where their patterns of enlistment different from from those of other soldiers, where their rates of promotion different from from other soldiers, and again, here, the, I could draw direct comparison of a variety of ways, but also I could ask questions of of specifically. So, how did the nature of the demands of Judaism itself example impact their their experiences that so for example, the fact that Jewish Sabbath is Saturday, and the army again nominee makes allowances for for Sabbath on Sunday, what likely impact with that have likewise what impact with the nature of the military diet on rations have have on Jews, and things of this kind so so so the existing and broader literature allowed for both enriching my own thinking about the nature of, of what the experience of being a soldier would be like but also then trying to tease out in what ways was a Jewish service distinct. You make it sound all very easy out of but I have to say it's an extraordinary accomplishment. It's it's so prettily on the page it looks so evident. But it's the result on your part of into fatigable research and just a wonderful artful synthesis of materials. One of the things that really struck me was that as your narrative purposely moved away from the statistics or data to real people named glass and her wits and Solomon. And as you yourself move away from apologetics to the writing of public facing history with a fair number of twists and turns that are not always savory. What's at stake. So, in part this project is in large part it's to recover the everyday experiences of individuals who, the most parts, whose lives went went unrecorded unrecorded were unremarked upon. And also to restore them in a strange way also to American Jewish history to that that the writing on as I've already described writing on the on the Civil War is amongst historians of American Jewish history is relatively unrecorded, and to really understand the lives of the population who, the most part were recent immigrants and trying to send why they they listed and what the sort of everyday challenges they were so to restore, restore them as much as possible to the page to understand their, their challenges and their lives and their, their decision making the same time. And so that's certainly one, one purpose of the project was to to not to celebrate but certainly to restore this experience and to try and, as I've suggested earlier to argue that the Civil War is actually central to American Jewish history has a variety of issues that will play out over time and have great consequences for, for American Jewish life as well. In part it's also, it is a project which draws, as we described earlier on the the Chappelle roster. And what the roster allows for is something else which is which is very new and very exciting for historians, which is to look at, and again something you've gestured towards to be able to look at, not just these individual patterns within, within the data to look at, understand where these people, these, these people came from, and, and how their origins, for example, shaped their, their decisions and their lives as well. So teasing out differences which is only possible because we have a massive data collected by the Chappelle roster team. And the stator is very unusual within the, the field of, of, of civil war studies more broadly that that certainly there are a number of scholars more recently have compiled significant data sets who've looked at large amounts of data. And even by those standards the Chappelle roster itself is on an enormous scale, we were looking at thousands upon thousands of Jewish soldiers, and it allows for certainly, again, describing and exposing what is distinct about them but also, again this is the picture, more broadly of a of soldiers with an army where where it's a very substantial number in a more than a quarter of the soldiers within the army are our immigrants, and this is a picture of, of a, of, of immigrants within the army so so so again, it contributes more broadly to to understanding what's the nature of, of the Union army really was. There's a tension and that plays out a creative tension between the individual and the collective that the roster enables you to do. You mentioned earlier on several occasions actually the word legacy, and in that connection what really struck me and struck me hard was the ways in which American Jews of the late 19th century constructed what seemed to me to be their very own version of the lost cause narrative, created heroism and enthusiasm when on the ground, both were in short supply to put it more directly, who knew, you know. So this struck me as a stunning revelation and one of the highlights of your book and so I'm wondering, as you uncovered the construction of this Jewish version of the lost cause. By bit, as it came to light were you surprised taken aback. Did you realize that that was your magic moment in this particular text as you unfolded bit by bit the story of their daily lives. It really was a significant surprise. I was aware of Simon Wolf's book, which which again Adrian mentioned earlier, which comes out in the 1890s and likewise I'm very much aware of the writing about Jewish soldiers which appears apologetic and celebrate you literally which appears later, but I hadn't realized in which the book again reveals is that there's a period after the war where where for the most part the war disappears from American Jewish life. And this is very different from that of of other ethnic minorities in the United States that we see instead amongst Germans and Irish and African Americans and others. We see a use of the war celebration of the war and celebration of service in the war as a mechanism to push for inclusion in American society push for citizenship and and and again as a. You can see that amongst Jews instead this this very surprising. Almost silence. And where, if I read the Jewish press for the decades of middle of the war expecting, for example, Jewish veterans to be celebrated and, and to be written about instead stay they very rarely appear. I'd expected that decoration day, for example, would would be the cause of much celebrating within the Jewish community instead again, aside from occasional references, a very little attention to this is very much in the north to somewhat different in the south. And, and again that then the question to me was why was this the case why are other communities are using the war in instrumentalizing the war in a variety of ways are, and are celebrating their veterans why does the Jewish community not do this. And what I came to believe and I came to argue is that, in a way Jews are chastened by the war that they experienced particularly with with with anti semitism is is shocking to them that they have served during the war. They expect to be to have their military service celebrated within the broader society, and instead the there's this upswelling of anti semitism during the war. And after the war, the language I see, I saw again and again in the Jewish press was a desire to move on. And that's that not to focus on the past but to focus on the future that creates a new post war, America, and in a way not to to look back at a war which was actually very difficult for the American Jewish community. And that continues into the 1880s. So certainly in the 70s and 1880s we see that again, this is clear evidence within American society of a an increase in of social anti semitism, particularly in the late 1870s and I think this contributes to it. And really in the 1880s and particularly during the 1890s do we see Jews are returning to the war and and reimagining the war and it comes about in fact, or a in a very clear way, because of a an article in a very prominent magazine by a very prominent journalist and an academic who, Goldman Smith accuses Jews effectively of not having served in the war. And this is of course a war which is in living memory in the 1890s this is a war which is a proving ground of military and patriotism to American society in this public accusation which is then picked up by by a variety of others becomes a an accusation which cannot be ignored. And out of that we see Simon slow down, why can't it be ignored. I think again because the war still perhaps not still but in fact even more so occupies this position in American society where, by this point in time it has been a move within America towards a broader reconciliation between North and South. That's that service and heroism during the war is a is a marker now of citizenship and patriotism. And this is a moment when large numbers of Eastern European Jews are immigrating to the United States. And again, part of the accusation coming from Goldman Smith and others that these newcomers can never be good citizens because look Jews failed the test during the Civil War they did not enlist during the Civil War and sufficient numbers. And so we therefore we cannot trust these newcomers to become good citizens, either. And so, again, it's such an important charge at such a critical moment, where, where, you know, throngs of newcomers arriving. But the Jewish community cannot ignore this and we see this conscious efforts on the part of Simon Wolf and others and no surprise in a way that it's him this prominent Jewish figure within Washington very well connected in a variety of ways that representing the name breath in Washington DC. There's a way that that they can ignore it and he starts this project, really, of in a way restoring Jewish pride in the wall and assembling this list of of Jews who have served. And at the same again, roughly the same period of time we see the emergence of a of a Hebrew Union Veterans Association, again, Jews consciously celebrating their their participation and contributions during during the Civil War. And again, Jews have been active in veterans organizations prior to that point in time. They've been again members of the the of the broader secular veterans organizations. But now there's a need to to celebrate in particular a Jewish service as a response to to anti-Semitism. So it's a real fascinating shift with a subject which has been submerged suddenly becomes central during this point in time. So that's a terrific revelation and I'm wondering if it had anything to do at all, maybe with reconstruction. Clearly it's bound up with immigration but where where might reconstruction. Calibration. I have a very good, very good question that we see again, I get my early research on on Jews within the South after the war. We see there very clearly the impact of reconstruction that that Jews in the Confederacy and this is again the Chappelle roster team is working on this moment that Jews for a variety of reasons serving significant numbers in the Confederacy, partly because conscription makes it very difficult not to serve within the Confederate military. And that's part of the story. Likewise, there are there are plenty of Southern Jews who have lived in the South for generations by the time this war and I'm certainly proud of their service, proud of being Southern students. But we see after the war and at the same moment in time that Jews in the north become wary of the war don't want to particularly extoll Jewish veterans. We see the opposite happening in the in the South and I think it again it relates to to Southern politics and a desire to be included in the the dominant mode that were the emergence dominant mode of Southern politics which is to be to be to reinforce their whiteness in the South after after the war. So we see very conspicuous displays by Jews in Richmond and elsewhere of Confederate patriotism so really a Jewish version explicit Jewish version of the lost cause which which which emerges. And, and it's, it's again it's, it's, we see much earlier celebration in a whole variety of ways by Jewish veterans that begin to write memoirs of the war. And, and to to in ways in which Jewish veterans in the North, really do not all in much smaller numbers do do so in the north. And so, so, so a very different picture there and I think very much connected with with the, the, the, the, again, the challenges and desires of Jews in Southern society. Again, I'm generalizing that there are certainly exceptions to this picture, but the Jews are trying to position themselves in many cases and understand unfortunately where power lies within Southern society, and in the Civil War is a way again of proving your southerness proving your, your connections with with being a white southern. In both instances, what's key is positioning, although that positioning takes a very different forms. So, I mean, we've spoken a lot about that the broad themes, and I want to turn a little bit to people and wonder if in the course of your research, you. I wonder, I know that you've encountered lots of memorable characters, you know, dutiful sons and not so dutiful husbands and photographers and newspaper editors and politically inclined and over heated rabbis and my favorite the self proclaimed Jewish ladies of Syracuse who actually I imagine so their fingers use their fingers to the bone to produce a flag on any favorites among them. Absolutely, I certainly have a list of favorites and again one of the pleasures, as you well know of historical research is getting to know individuals who otherwise are lost to history or are only known to a few. And I have a collection, some, I have a rogues gallery of those who his behavior was was less than glorious but but certainly where we're larger than life also a number of tragic characters, who is, again, have left some cases, substantial and sometimes very slender traces in the historical record. So there are, again, a collection of letters which I can recommend to everyone the letters of Marcus Spiegel which have been really beautifully published and are widely available but are really worth with with reading. Marcus Spiegel, again, an immigrant, someone living married and was living in Ohio and relatively small town in Ohio prior to the war. And we see this transition over his over the wall from being a relatively reluctant recruit someone who openly writes wonderful letters to his wife and his wife saves them. The letters begin with, with clear evidence that he enlists because of the stay laws which were in essence save his business from bankruptcy. Unfortunately, he had expanded his business just prior to the war very bad timing and the war has devastating economic consequences for his business. So he enlists, primarily, he's looking for a bombproof job he's looking for for a position which is not too dangerous and he has his wife who's a Quaker by origin is again very reluctant for him to to go off to to serve. And, and, and, and likewise the, the, the income which military service promises also very attractive to him as it is too many many soldiers at the time. So this transition over time, both of his political views which which begin very hostile to the Lincoln administration very says very angry and the racist things about the Lincoln administration. We see a transition of his political views. We also see his transition of his thinking about the military as well. This is relatively reluctant soldier looking for a bombproof job this guy discovered that he actually has a certain skill as a commander as an officer, and, and, and likewise forms very close bonds with his fellow soldiers. So, so we see in these letters, which over over years and him writing to his wife and the motivations are changing and his wife clearly imploring him to to come home and he ultimately in a resists exactly this very very rich in in in the this and way to really get a sense of him and his relationship with his wife and his experience as a soldier, also writing very evocatively about what it's like to be a Jew. And, and likewise what it's like to be a soldier so a wonderful extraordinary letter collection. So it's a Marcus people certainly one of those that I, that I became very attached to. And you want to share your thoughts about those at whom you might have bristled instead. So, so again that there are no wonderful characters who are less glorious in their in their service. My, my perhaps favorites amongst the the rogues were the, the, the Eustaisie family and brothers of several brothers who enlist during the war. They are originally Hungarian. They, and the key brother here is a man by the name of Frederick Eustaisie. They've taken that he has a aristocratic title, and he's a man who raises a regiment in New York early on in the wall. He has a polyglot regiment drawing from right of ethnic communities in New York in fact in each company in the regiment is supposed to represent a different immigrant group who living in New York City. And he is, is a, again, has an eye for pageantry so that so the uniforms of the of the regiment are really gaudy over the top, very stylish. There's a wonderful photograph of the book in fact of him and his brother wearing these these elaborately designed uniforms. And the mannerisms that he adopts and the behavior that he adopts again is this larger than life persona. And again, claiming to be an aristocrat aristocratic family, claiming that they'd fled the hungry that come to the United States and then this and that in extensive military background, et cetera, you know had gone to a military academy and otherwise. We know again, this regiment and and Frederick to say they have been written about in by by other scholars. And because again, it's a larger than life regiment and individuals and also because of the somewhat strange and increasingly eccentric behavior of Frederick use days over time. And he ultimately lands up and sinks in prison during the war. And so, but what was less known about Frederick use days he presents himself as a Hungarian aristocrat and surrounds himself by others with with similar is is that he is not actually Frederick use days he the former secretary the to the governor of Halifax the master swordsman the dancing master and otherwise the the professor of multiple languages and otherwise this elaborate persona he's created. He's actually a man by the name of David stressor a a probably very modest Hungarian immigrants ultimately to the United States, who has invented this this elaborate persona for himself. During the early stage of the war this accusation is made is whispered that maybe Frederick use to see is is not who he claims to be maybe he is a Jew from from Hungary, which is of course denied all sorts of other accusations about him are made to which which it's not realistic but it's it's such an outrageous charge that this man might be might be Jewish that that is beyond belief, but but but it turns out yes he is actually a man probably relatively humble background who's who's invented this wonderful character for himself and ultimately it does not turn out so well he turns out to be not a particularly good commanding officer of arrangement he falls out with everyone around him. And as I said he lands up in prison. Frude and he isn't fall and not uncommon. Economic fraud or so actually so so he does what a number of of others do, particularly during the early stages of the war which is that that he's responsible for raising raising the regiment and and pay would gain determining the amount of pay that you will distribute reflects a number of soldiers that you've recruited so there is fraud relating to that and suggestions of fraud relating to supplies and, and otherwise and this is, as I said it's not an uncommon accusation and not an uncommon source of fraud during during the early stage of the war, likewise the accusations of nepotism and then all sorts of other things connected with them as well he's he really is a rascal. Do we have time for one more. Sure, that that's another another character another one of my, my, my question but you could do another question sure sure no no please go ahead I don't want to do. I want to be sure that I get this one in we could always come back to your, your favorite. Do you have the book handy. Yes, yes absolutely right here. So among the, the very many haunting passages that you've uncovered and now share with us, perhaps one of the most searing, at least for me, appeared in the Jewish messenger in February 1862, in which a Jewish soldier writes unanimously of his decision and presumably that of many of his co-religionists to keep their Jewishness under wraps. So I'm wondering if you'd be kind enough to read that passage on page 103. And then we'll chat a little bit about what he has to say. As you, as you said from the New York based Jewish newspaper called the Jewish messenger. And he writes that as a general rule the Jews do not care to make their religion a matter of notoriety, as it would at once involve them in an intricate controversial disquisition with the Christian chaplains, for which they did not always feel themselves and which, of course, can, under no circumstances, afford them anything but annoyance. Some of our brethren fear that were they known as Hebrews would expose them to the taunts and sneers of those among their comrades who have been in the habit of associating with the name of Jew, everything that is mean and contemptible. What do you make of that observation. And how does it figure in your analysis. Absolutely. So, what's interesting about it with a number of things are interesting, but one of it appears in a Jewish newspaper. And in a curious way, Jewish soldiers are relatively reticent when it comes to writing to the Jewish press, that yes, we do see accounts in the press, which describing the Jewish service and letters which are which are sent home, which are relatively relatively rare and particularly so when it comes to describing difficulties of this kind when it comes to describing anti-semitism or the fear of anti-semitism and fear of taunts and sneers as this describes the fears of being targeted by by Christian missionaries for example by those who want to convert them. And I think what it speaks to is a number of factors. One is that the reality for most Jewish soldiers is an experience of relative isolation that this, which this really speaks to that that unlike other immigrant and ethnic groups we really do not see Jewish regiments or even Jewish companies in the military. The experience for Jewish soldiers is serving alone or amongst very few other Jewish soldiers. So that really is this loneliness in some cases. The challenges which which which come with being relatively isolated in terms of practicing as a Jew and this uncertainty are likewise about how your fellow soldiers will respond when and if your Jewishness is revealed. And I see therefore a variety of strategies adopted by Jews when it comes to what to do with the fact that they are our Jewish and at the same time, really far from from other Jewish soldiers. And sometimes it involves serving anonymously adopting an alias or not revealing your identity as a Jew. Sometimes it clearly involves very careful, carefully revealing it to others. But it's very rarely do I see evidence that the Jews wear their their identities proudly and outwardly certainly there are cases of this kind that I think it's again reflects both a broader phenomenon within America at the time which is that there's this far more open prejudice against a variety of different groups and a lack of discomfort in terms of expressing negative things about about other ethnic or immigrant or racial groups. Certainly it reflects that and also it reflects that these are, as I've described, these are the most part are immigrants who are far from home, they're far from from from from family and often far from support networks. And really real uncertainty about what what will happen, what the consequences will be if you who are openly identified as Jewish that passage certainly reveals us. On the other hand, what becomes clear from looking at other evidence is that, yes, there are moments of anti-semitism both on a broader scale general grants general 11 a few other episodes of that kind, but on the day to day I noticed that I think for many soldiers such fears or such concerns are misplaced that the experience of serving shoulder to shoulder in this intense camaraderie which develops within units as people are eating together they're living in close proximity with one another. There are cases of of very nasty anti-semitism of hostility to Jews as Jews, but that seems to the most part seems the exception, rather than normal instead that that this, in a way, familiarity breeds not contemporary opposite it breeds a sense of fellowship with with those that you serve but you see it again with in the pension records veterans records etc this that these bonds continue after after the war as well. So, pulling all these disparate complicated threads together. Would you say at the end of the day, as you're kind of to the moment that the relationship of the Jews to civil war, both mirrors and stands apart from the larger frame of American Jewish life or in more direct language. What is it fit to into American Jewish life. Certainly that there are certainly continuities in a whole variety of ways that that, and both in terms of the experience of soldiers and and likewise, what a pre figures for for example later for the Jewish service and in other wars in the first world war in the second war as well. In terms of continuity is interesting continuity is from from the pure pre war period as well that. Yes, most Jews living in the United States are relative newcomers in about in 1861 they've arrived in many of many cases in the 1840s and even more so. Many of them have come as single men and have lived these lives in many cases start out as peddlers in the countryside is a Hawking goods experience of, of isolation experience of trying to develop your, your new world for yourself in in the United States. Having to work out what it means to yourself to be Jewish in America at a place where now you can shape your identity in many ways which you could not in in the old world. And, and so I think there are continuity is there that this that the war and military service provides these young Jewish men with with opportunities again to to remold themselves to choose what name they will serve under to to to choose how they're going to present themselves to their fellow soldiers to choose how important their Jewishness will be within with the military, important or not not important as well so they are certainly a variety of of continuity is there. And likewise, what we see too is that that the, the, yes, the war sort of was distinctive in a variety of ways from from Jewish military service and in the first world war in the second world war as well. And there's something nature of the civil armies and the nature of American society this this moment in time but we do see the beginning of patterns, which will occur later as well. For example, the, the, the, what comes out of the war and something which I pointed to earlier says, since amongst Jewish veterans that they have a distinct experience and that the experience means something. And we see this particularly with the formation of the Hebrew Union Veterans Association Association, the United States, that this particular pride in military service and the Americanist, which emerges then we certainly see that in a very substantial scale, particularly after the Second World War as well that the sense of GIs. Again, and here, perhaps Jewish experience is not dissimilar from from that of many other groups who serve in in the Second World War to that that the sense that that your service has meant something and that America, not that it owes something to you but but it's reinforced your, your, your citizenship your, your rights to full inclusion in American society and you certainly begin to see that coming out of the civil war particularly later amongst Jewish veterans as well. Perhaps the, the corollary notion that America is the better for it, but we'll leave that for another time. I believe there are some splendid questions that are awaiting you. Absolutely. Thank you very much for that. That's that's that conversation. So, so a number of questions have been have been posted in a chat and the first question relates to the first Jewish army a chaplain and related to that was the highest rank that you achieved in the Union army. The second part of that question is easy to answer that we do see a Jewish colonels as serving within the military during the war, and a number of officers are then breveted are given, are promoted, given these honorary promotion which aren't necessarily confirmed to much higher ranks to Brigadier General and above but really during the war we see in a number of Jewish colonels certainly plenty of, of Jewish lieutenant colonels and captains and other ways. In fact, the book contains as one of the appendices, a listing of Jews of who achieve higher ranks and officer rank during during law. And likewise, we didn't talk about Jews who received the Medal of Honor but likewise there's a listing of those who do so that plenty of cases of celebrated Jewish service during the war and individuals who really do extraordinary things during the war as well. The story relating to military chaplains is an interesting, interesting one that one of the regulations and laws which created during the war is that every regiment is entitled to appoint a military chaplain the officers can can vote on the appointment of a chaplain and because as I described earlier, we don't see the emergence of Jewish regiments or even Jewish companies. It means that that's a user dispersed through through the army even though there are some units where we see higher proportion, there are very few regiments where Jews make up substantial enough percentage of the regiment that there's a, it can be a strong argument for appointing a Jewish officer, a Jewish chaplain. There is an exception to this, the Fifth Pennsylvania Cavalry which has a Jewish colonel earlier in the war and the officer called again we see in this regiment a number of Jews. They do appoint or try to appoint a Jewish chaplain, and this becomes a cause of contention. Again, I write about this in the book in its episode which is relatively well known although my take on it and the evidence I found is somewhat different than has been presented in the past. There is an argument where the Jewish chaplain is forced to to resign because the ordinance that and then the law Congressional Act, which creates the office of Chaplain specifies that a chaplain has to be a member of a Christian nomination this becomes an issue then which ultimately requires the intervention of lobbying by the Jewish community and intervention of Lincoln, ultimately, the law is changed. We don't, we see again, one later Jewish chaplain who is appointed is again is appointed. Not so much because he's Jewish but because he's available and because he joins a regiment where they are a number of central Europeans number of German speakers and he shares that background. It's a somewhat unsatisfactory experience within that regiment as is common with chaplains chaplains are not necessarily popular figures within many units. We see more of in the way of Jewish hospital chaplains during the war so in places where we see Union military hospitals we see and the Jews appointed either appointed by the Union army or again spending much time visiting Jewish hospitals within within these hospitals. So again an interesting story one which is covered in depth within the book as well. A very good question another question about what was the appeal for Jews for immigrating of Jews would immigrated to enlist and something I question I thought about a lot that as I described earlier, these are newcomers to the United States for the most part. There are people who have been in America in some cases for 10 or fewer years sometimes with just a handful of years before before the enlist, and a variety of motivations, sometimes very heroic with the again. I was asking earlier about one of my favorite characters another favorite character someone with August Bondi who leaves behind a wonderful memoir after at the end of his life, describing really unusual life as someone who'd who'd been a 48 at the time, he'd fought in the, joined the liberal revolutions in Europe and then effectively flees to America as a very young man that comes involved in bleeding Kansas, he writes with John Brown extraordinary figure, and he's an ideological enlistee that comes up because of the cause of both defending the Union and because of his strong abolitionist views as well. But we see everything from that's perhaps at the one end of the spectrum everything from that to perhaps most common of all desire to defend the Union that the immigrants have come to America to to because they have many for economic reasons but also this admiration for what American society is they admire the Republic, and, and a sense that the Republic might be undone is something which is deeply troubling to them so certainly they enlist for for to defend the Union. Likewise, plenty who enlisted the thing that you never do so for the same reasons that other recent immigrants enlist because the economy is devastated by secession, and they need work they need an income and they expected this will be a quick and glorious war and they enlist for the for the glory and the promise of a steady wage. And, and that's very common, certainly amongst Jews and the broader American population Union population in 1861 1862 so a variety of a variety of reasons why immigrants would enlist, but perhaps what sets Jews apart in some cases from others is that we see, as I described earlier, very early on in the war, this reading the first some of the world, this the rise of anti semitism in this accusation that Jews prefer profits to patriotism that they're making money off of the war as crooked contractors all of these accusations which are held at the community deeply troubling to the community and this hasn't undoubtedly has an effect on enlistment as well that that we see in the Irish and Germans, for example, they also will experience a prejudice as during the war itself but typically later that that they saw on the wall somewhat after a Jews really in later in 1862 into 1863 which is Jews experiences, this negative effect much much earlier on them. And so again, an interesting way that Jewish experience from from from others. And the final question, perhaps I see that we are really running out of time which is, what happens you have any stories what actually happened when Jewish soldiers found out that others were Jewish and I'll end with what to me is a tragic story connected with with August Bondi who I referred to the immigrant from Austria, who had been a 48 and then an ideological and really committed to abolitionism, etc. And he finds out he joins the Kansas cavalry regiment he finds out that a one of his two of his fellow soldiers are Jewish but one in, in a very tragic way that he approaches a soldier during the war and and asks him are you Jewish and the soldier denies it because I'm Hungarian I'm not, I'm not Jewish. And how does he later establish the soldier actually is Jewish soldier dies during the war, and a another soldier approaches August Bondi and says to him, here are his papers here the soldiers, and they contain a language which we do not understand it contain letters written to and from the soldiers parents written in in in Yiddish which which Bondi understands, and which which clearly identify him as Jewish. Again in a fascinating case where a soldier is is for a variety of reasons, perhaps reluctant to even share with another soldier that is Jewish, but even as he clearly is the letters home, and the letters from his parents are talking about Jewish festivals in what the dates of Jewish festivals are so really a tragic, a story of this kind. Let me, let us end there is so a great thank you to to Professor Joseph likewise to Adrian Dalmas and likewise also to to our audience this afternoon and this evening, and a final substantial thank you to the National Archives both this program and for the the wonderful resources which have made both the Chappelle roster possible, and also many of the stories and much of the research of my book possible as well so thank you so much everyone.