 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer weekly joining me as always My co-host of more than seven years. It's Tom. What's going on buddy? How you doing? Hello friends Also joining us first time on the show, and I'm very excited to have him take over Mars. What's going on, buddy? How you doing Mars? Oh ecstatic So happy to be here. It's weird being on the other side of this Well Look from you came up to bruhammer. I Had a great time. We got a game in I Got to talk to your kids. They were very they were very fun and had a lot of their own ideas about starting YouTube channels Which I tried to put them on the right path for I have no doubt They'll outstrip my channel and everything I've ever done in my life within within a matter of months And we said we got to get you on the show because I wanted to talk slanesh again and revisit it And you were playing slanesh at bruhammer and this and so this had to happen. There it was. It was that easy It kind of just all fell together. It's perfect Kiz met So that is what we're gonna be talking about today. We are going to be talking about slanesh. Can it win? I mean obviously that's a bit of a Click baity title the answer is clearly yes, sometimes all armies win sometimes But but really more like how what's good? What's bad? We're gonna get into the meat and potatoes and Probably some side dishes of vegetables. Maybe a little gravy. We're gonna get it all into it All right, but first of course the news Tom did you just remember you were supposed to open the news Don't you're talking about why are you no stop? Why are you so negative? Why don't we start there? Uh-huh. Why are you just I'm gonna do the first two news items Tom? Oh, I already know what they are. I'm gonna do the news items and the first one is for women are injured Which is a 40k thing. Hmm. Yes, great now. We're gonna move on to the thing. I'm gonna talk about Okay So everybody guess what there's a lot of news here on the channel. That's right There's this I don't like we're not normally doing a lot of self-promotion news But hey guess what everyone we've got a lot of a channel update news So first things first if you saw last week, you noticed Tyler's new little art image. That was Thanks to new art, which I had had done recently Pushing back to the beginning of the year. So you're gonna see some more different art pieces Which leads to new merch, that's right There is a bunch of new merch in the merch store And guess what folks some of it is on black t-shirts and black hoodies So we have merch on black not just white. I know that was a very popular quest to have multiple colors We even have a nice heavy metal steel gray color for some of that stuff too where available and As a matter of fact some of the new merch is I made a shirt with Tyler's little sprite And it says team Tyler and then there is a shirt with Tom's little sprite that says team Tom and So you can vote for which one of these two you're of my co-hosts Who's team you're on and I will know who won cuz I'll see how many That's irrelevant irrelevant I got you Tom I got you and I will be able to see who is actually the more popular co-host Because people whoever people vote with their dollars. That is the strongest way they can vote So yes new merch in the merch store link is down below check it out we got socks and mugs and all sorts of fun crap and There'll be more if people have suggestions or designs or catchphrases or things like that you want to see On there or you want to see us make please tell me drop it down in the comments, and I will I will make that happen Second other big news stuff related to the channel. That's right. The patreon is live. Oh my goodness We did it There is in fact a patreon now for My channel for this activity we're doing here I am going to repeat here the thing I said in the video change I did at the beginning of the year which is zero content I ever produce on this channel 0% 0 not one wit not one lick not one second of Content I produce now until the end of time will be behind a paywall period full-stop hard commitment Okay, I have no intention of ever doing that. I don't want it. I will never do it This is my solemn oath Now what the patreon is for is two things one you think what we do on this channel or what I do on this channel is cool And you want to chip in a couple bucks to support. I'm grateful for that. Thank you to If you want to get some review feedback on your models one-on-one coaching it's a venue for me to teach and so a lot of people were asking to have Like one-on-one teaching and coaching and reviewing feedback and there are ways on the patreon that you can do that There's also a discord and stuff like that that you want that you that you get into depending on the level you sign up at Where you know get interact with you and stuff like that So That's up link is down in the description. It will be in the link of all the videos check it out The only thing that's limited in the patreon is the one-on-one coaching because that requires time And I only have so much time in the month So there are limited slots for that There you go big channel news all around as the journey toward trying to turn this into a semi-non-professional operation Continues Related to that look. I'm semi-professional here. You do have a nice background. Yeah, it's great. Yeah, we're getting there eventually maybe It'll look nice And I see Dan has already cotton to the fact that one of the things you can do by the way Tom on patreon is you can put little images to each tier a little little like you can assign a little image to each tier So you're one of the images. You're the you're the lowest here and then Tyler is the next year up from you The abuse that I put up with I tell you All right, so there we go and remember if you if you want to support the show But you don't want to do patreon or anything like that or buy merch because you know Hey, look, it's tough all over right now and I get it super fine There's no expectation around this in any way shape or form all the shows all the content all the tutorials Everything will be free and if the all you if you would if all you can do is hit like and share it I couldn't be more thrilled with that. That is super great. Hit that like button subscribe do those fun things They cost no money and they help other people find the channel. So there you go All right, oh Gareth, I don't think you want my advice now come come. I think you I think you know right now that you don't need that All right, so no, that's that's for that's for my patreon this Sure, sure, sure I don't think Gareth needs yours either at any rate Okay, let's now that with with that bit of self-sprucing done Let's oh there you go. That's a nice little piece of news Anthony said NashCon tickets go on sale April 1st. I'll put that in my calendar good to know. All right, but let's keep on with the news What else we got? So the new Harrow Whatever the new season of underworlds is it's an old goo and we have a new warband that dropped and it's Frankenstein Yes, it's it's Frankenstein. No, it's Frankensteins. That's what it is. It's Frankensteins Yes, they're Frankenstein. We don't know if the mad scientist is there, but we do know that all the monsters are There's there's clearly going to be a mad scientist at the head of this as the leader Yes, like some mad necromancer scientist, right? But yes, it's it's it's Frankensteins the plural that is what this is I hope every member of the crew got a different big body part and then and then the leader just has a giant head Like he just has a big oversized head. I don't think that that's how this is gonna happen, but sure sure All right, yeah, what do you think it Mars? What do you think of this guy? I? I'm not big on a lot of the death stuff or the underband warband. I Might buy quite a few boxes. I Like him you like him. All right fair enough Tom. What's your take on this dude? He's fine. I mean What I'll say is this I'm all for new dead models Okay, I'm all for living people in death armies. I don't think this guy's alive, but sure No, I agree. I agree, but if we have like a mad scientist elect arc Electro, whatever guy Like he could be Like a like a like a techno Necromancer sure he like he could be living and I'm all for exploring what that looks like, right? Okay Okay, so But if they do that they need to be like recognizable other body parts Like this should have looked very much like a green skin arm with like green skin armor or something on it, right? Yeah, sure they should have like leaned into the other body like other body parts. I don't know. That's what I'm saying Yeah, that's that's just this paint job, but you're right you could like his arms big enough compared to his other one You could just make it an work arm yourself and and that's yeah, that's just the paint you bring to it. I Agree Mars Yeah, I hate it I Don't like it at all And that's coming from someone who just built an entire army of Frankensteins Out of there out of their sons of badmout. I just the the model. He just feels too off-kilter to me Like I don't know there's there's I have a symmetry requirement sort of thing in my brain and And he isn't that at all So I I kind of like the glow like I like the glowy eyes given that this is supposed to be like electrical Sure By the way, Manzac, I don't know if you know this or not, but I actually have an entire technomancer faction within my KO That are all like I have 30 arco or 20 arco that are like half robot half People I haven't painted them yet, but they're all built and it's all based So I'm already there with you buddy Yeah, you did that originally because you were trying to cheat in ghoul mercenaries, but yes I mean I may have been using it as FEC stuff That's fine. The reality is um, I have them Sure sure It's it's this exact so Yeah, rambunas. Is it just the this model or the concept? No concept is awesome. It's just this execution didn't grab me The like they could have other parts of the warband that are this kind of experimentation that could be cool I just don't like I don't know You know what this reminds me of the Rick and Morty episode where they end up in the Mad Max wasteland and Morty gets a Giant arm and he becomes like a killer in the in the Thunderdome Yeah, I mean like it's not yeah It's a funny episode Okay Anyways What's next? Yeah, sure. We can talk about the meta of watch controversy Dan's in the chat Sure. I mean I I just wanted to reference this I don't you know, I'm not trying to kick up something that happened at the end of last week But I wanted to comment on it which is to say Not cool Not cool Not cool on the part of GW there You know and for those who don't know what happened basically a meta watch article went up was written by AOS shorts and they Originally and it used sats that were pulled by Ziggy and and Rob stats Rob not honest war gamer Rob and You know that the data was then synthesized and put into this sort of nergal meta watch article amongst other points that were made and You know Dan didn't just recapitulate the stats He was obviously doing data synthesis and talking about the broader place the army and he had the accredited credit down at the bottom to he accredited to Ziggy and Rob in the stat center and That's how the article went up and was published and then about an hour later They just removed the credit and just swoop gone because apparently they didn't want to reference you know the T-Sports Network or or honest war gamer Rob and That's just a petty silly thing But I mean it even gets something deeper Which is like in my industry. That's plagiarism Well sure look, I mean the information out there in public It is but if you're pulling from a source, you need to cite that source That's just good industry practice And the reality is is that like for me it? It was very disappointing because it just harkens back to like GW's old history of like Questionable borrowing of IP stuff right of taking other people's work and it frustrated me to see them so blatantly like Dan put in a lot of hard work and To To not give the acknowledgement in the credit words do yeah, I mean that's what I would say you know Talked for a long time about how their artists and sculptors and stuff like that should be credited There's no reason to think that they shouldn't nonsense every other every other sculpt you buy if you buy it from any other company We'll say painted by this person sculpted by this person so on and so forth You know, but that's a completely separate discussion than this They there is primary data that is collected in a source people worked very hard on it to put it together We're gonna use a bunch of it tonight In our thing and it's just a it was just a jerk move for no reason Other than spite it was petty and small That's what it was Okay, that's all That's all it is and I don't like to see it people adults should be making better decisions There you go end of discussion and by the way, it's Streisand affected the whole thing Right. It got it went huge. Yeah, you just got way louder by the way, but like yes The like it would have just been something some people noticed and was like, oh cool neat nice of them to do that and to See them working together and it would have been the end of it and no one would have thought a second passing of it But of course we had to Streisand affected didn't we and there we are So it's just it's not only a bad move like in that it doesn't lead to the ends you want It's also just petty as I said, so there we go end of that. Okay Mars I won't make you stake out a position on that one. I don't want you to Swim into the middle of this but it's it's just a you know It's it was a dinosaur thing. I found out about a lot of their history because of it I don't know like it's not really a position. It's easy as you should just site where you find stuff from Yeah, I really hard to do doesn't seem controversial exactly. Yeah It's pretty pretty standard. All right, Tom. What's next? Yeah, so we Let's talk about something that is exciting, which is the return of cursed city to made to order boom Yes Cursed city is back made to order. They've guaranteed that everybody that orders in the window will get a copy and I wonder whether I wonder if they've changed their source for this by the way It'll be interesting to see Yeah They and then they said it will actually be full re-releasing later in the year You know filling all the made to order orders within additional stuff out in the market And there will be expansions and they've promised some cool big expansions for it So very exciting for those people. I'm I'm happy to see this Rise from its grave Altered beast style. I think a lot of people were excited about this game. It has some really amazing figures I enjoyed painting all of them like I was lucky enough to get a copy originally and You know, it's I I think it's cool. So yay. Good things. That's a good thing Mars did you get did you any interest in cursed city? You had said death doesn't really grab you and this is certainly a death heavy thing Uh I like the models just for like hip-mashing and stuff my partner kelly. She plays uh flesh in your court So the vargulf I had to grab sure you get that Uh, I'm looking forward to the expansions just to see what else I can mutilate and turn into something else Uh, all of my vargulfs in my flesh eater courts army are the var Varg skeers out of this just modified. Yes, every one of them Because it's such a better model better Yeah, that's interesting. Uh, the my question is is do I buy another one? Like I have a complete one, but do I buy another one? That's the real question here And I just don't know It might as well As I've been toying around with uh dead walker lists Like I need another 10 to round off that first 10. So I have a solid block of 20 there From their uh cursed city box and also I like the ogre zombies Like the oh, yes the guard. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like I'd love to have more of those They are super cool models. Yeah, sure. They are super cool models Um, yeah, I'm I'm hoping that some of the expansions aren't just for For spg. I'm sure there will be some for soul blight, right? Um, but if it follows the Blackstone Fortress Model as as it certainly was probably intended to We can expect updates for various armies, right? Um Some it's not just like how in 40k We got the man of iron who can just be dropped into like an ad mech army It's like a sneaky little ai guy who's just like, yes, I am uh I am just a normal robot like the rest of your robots beep boop beep Right, you know Um, but yeah cool stuff like that. Can I ask a question? Sure Why are you the only one that gets socks? Why Just looking around the merch store because I didn't know if people wanted socks or not So I just I made socks with my logo on it. Uh, yeah, we all buy socks I mean, I just It just I don't understand man. Look if people want socks If people want more socks with more logos, I'll add more socks if people want whatever you want in the store I'll add it. Okay. It's fine. I I I made a Swathe of new designs over the last week putting this art these new these art assets old and new to work And uh, you know, there you go. So we we need more socks for christmas time So you put different ones and everybody's talking. There you go. It's a good call. I'll see what I can do I'll see what I can do. All right Uh, what's next up on the news on the news round up? uh Fire slayers and idk idk going pre-order this weekend in full reviews coming in the next two weeks. So I think uh That means that we probably have the uh, um, whatever it's called The nda being lifted sometime in the next week or so I'm guessing just to put follows the pattern that we've normally had So we'll see on that. Um, which means that we'll get, you know, man reads book and all the other stuff, uh, kind of Getting covered in reviews. So I am very excited about that. Um I'm mixed on what I've seen out of fire slayers but I'm Uh, yeah, I'm excited Yeah, we will be doing the reviews of both of those books in the coming two weeks. Uh, so Uh, get excited if you're a fish fan or a fan of tiny naked baby dwarves with mohawks It's gonna be a great. It's gonna be a great two weeks for you We're doing fish next week. Is that right? Correct fish will be first Uh, so it'll be idk next week and then uh, uh naked baby slayer dwarves with mohawks the week after that Excellent to see all these turtle lists I don't oh, yeah, I mean we'll see we'll see. Uh, I'm interested to see how This evolves. Um, I suspect that people are gonna be Um, I'm interested to see how fire slayers evolve. Let me just say it that way Gotcha, you're loud again. By the way, tom you need to you should turn yourself down again How am I allowed again? Like what changed you leaned way away so your condenser mic is trying to grab all the echo sound And condense it down Interesting Is it is it still bad if I lean forward like this? You're you're not as bad, but I would still turn it down a little Okay, anything else in the news round up Uh, no, I think that's it. There you go. That's just much better. You're much less loud there Okay, awesome. Very good. All right. Well gentlemen Let's talk about some uh pick of the week Uh, mars you're first up Uh, what's your pick of the week you want to share with everybody? It obviously I need to say mr. Mephisto stuff, but that's just an aside. I obviously have to shout out my best friend But the real pick is Strength hammers podcast on youtube chuck more my man crush monday all day He has some great stuff out there And I'm tired of hearing his joke about only three people watching this stuff. So everybody should go watch it Let him know that's more than three people Because he has some great interviews with some great guests I second that I realized I wasn't subbed to chuck and immediately corrected that issue. I am now I am now subbed out Uh, to strengthen. Well, I look I things happen. It's a lot going on I I I watched Here's one of his most recent videos realized I wasn't subbed clicked that button see how easy it is It's fun to click buttons as soon as I realized my error. I corrected it There we go speaking of which people should like and subscribe Uh, that's right. Don't forget to hit those buttons. That's fun. Oh, is hitting buttons. It's fun. Hit like hit subscribe Hit share all those fun things Uh, all right, tom. What's your picks? I'm gonna go with aos coach recently did a video uh with mr. West on um Talking mag with adam west not adam west james west talking, uh, magikin of nervel He went four and one at lvo And I you know, i'm a fan of of the new nervel book. I think it does a lot of things, right? I think it's enjoyable to play and play against and so I would encourage you guys to check it out. Um, Let's check about check out. Uh, glotkin and his mortal men Very nice. I will uh, I will drop that down in the description Uh Tyler don't vote against your own interests. Don't be that guy. Uh the um The for my pick of the week, uh, I'm gonna shout out Our good buddy scott the miniature maniac who I hope everybody knows is running a kickstarter of some very awesome Wood elf miniatures some dark wood elves I made a video this last week because he sent them to me in advance and I painted up One of them. I've actually painted up two of them. They've actually been in the shot for quite a while. They're they're behind my head um, but the um Uh, so that link that is linked down below the campaign is already funded So you know, you're just effectively purchasing the minis and writing the good old add-on train as a additional unlocks and Uh milestones get revealed But uh, go check that out if you haven't link is down in the description And my video this week is if you want to see one of the fakes close up That's the one color thing is painting one of the three figures from there So there you go. Um, I also painted the warrior, which you'll see in coming weeks in a video Uh, all right So, uh with that out of the way gentlemen, let's talk about Let's talk about a little hobby time Uh, yeah Mars What are you been working on man? What's on what's on your hobby table? What you've been what you've been painting? What you've been doing? Uh, I'm currently painting 15 hell striders and I'm building velikor for a list to play with I support all of this Yeah, I have a my list idea is just screwing over heroes And I want to just lean heavy into it with velikor and a soul fester um and What else I have in it The hell striders obviously with the minus one to hit on top of it. It's just it's just real nasty Nice, I don't know. We'll see obviously I have to build a painting before I put it on the table Yeah, of course, of course. Well, obviously Uh, real nasty insomesh don't go together right now in any other than aesthetically Uh, but but I but I health writers as we'll see later are one of my picks I I support this fully. Absolutely. They are they are a bright spot in in the clouds for sure Uh, nice Tom, what are you been working on a whole bunch of stuff you've been painting right? Um In my direct kind of hobby work, uh, I am working. I'm finishing up my first commission I'm doing. I don't know if you guys can see this very well It's fine Yeah, I'm doing a bunch of the uh, I'm doing for a 40 splinter bang for one of my friends in vences club and I'm excited to get those those things done and sent off in the mail And then I'm going to turn my attention to finishing up my adepticon list because it is not painted yet Um, so that kind of needs to be done um, and then uh, I am Uh in my new place. I am building bookshelves So I've reorganized my space and so I'm actually gonna have a a more kind of established nicer Video recording space. So okay, uh, I am looking forward to getting that done But that involved like building bookshelves and doing all the things and setting all setting all the space up Okay, gotcha. So people have said you're quiet mars. So tom turn yourself down more and mars make sure you lean into your mic Okay, turn myself down because you're gonna turn the Master audio up. Is that correct? Yes. And if I just turn it up, you'll blow everybody away That's exactly right because you you're better Uh, you because you're both on the same audio input. There you go better Okay All right. Tell me if tom's too quiet everyone, but I I given tom that your voice. I'm sure you'll carry I can just I can just raise the volume Sure, I'm not too worried. Uh, everybody tell me if tom is too quiet. He sounds fine to me, but again I have headphones on so it's hard to always tell. All right. Fantastic. Uh, for myself I am still finishing my vampire lord on zombie dragon. He's almost done. There's the dragon basically done Here's the writer done There he is And uh, of course because he's a big giant dude, we've got to have a big scenic base for him Uh, and so I'm just finishing up that base actually There's just a little bit more work to do on that And uh, that's this this guy will be ready to rock and roll Uh, maybe another Half hour hour on the base and that's that's ready to go and then we just put him all together So he's almost done. It was this close To getting him. Okay. Yeah, tom. They said you're a little low now. So you can come back up a little bit Hey, there you go. Now you sound good I did a recording before this and everything sounded fine, but hey, here we go It's the difference between how it works how the recording goes versus how it goes out Okay, so um the Uh, but yeah, I'm excited to have this guy done and then my next piece is uh, my next piece is to Go and touch all the golden demon entries because guess what folks It's only like 20 days Until adept icon. How about that? Don't say that. Don't say that. I have like 60 models that I have to pay We are under three weeks away That's right Can you hear the sound of the clock ticking tom? It'll be fine The ghost it'll be fine So I hope everybody's gonna get that is is any painting projects Whether that be for golden demon or painting for an army or for attorney for adept icon If you're gonna be there, I still look forward to seeing everybody in just a few weeks. I am beyond excited for this By the way, I saw that I think a spot opened up in one of my classes So if somebody was looking to take a class like they were all sold out But then one opened because I assume somebody probably canceled and couldn't come So hey, at least when I looked before the show, there was one open spot in one class So if you were wanting to take a class There it is Uh, yes, as nicholas said three models a day tom. That's all you got average just three models a day. It's totally doable Totally doable and there goes you 60 and three days saturday and there you go. There you go. There you go I like it. There'll be that nice, uh Bright the the yellow green. Yeah, they did. Yeah, I loved it I mean a lot of that airbrush work. So and then it'll be like it'll it's all All your skills. It's just beautiful It's a great army. Nobody saw it yet. They've been here find out find tom and see it. It's so cool looking Well, we believe in you tom All the ghosts for adept icon I Decided the gosh is for the birds Just gonna get rid of him and just go and full full monty on the ghost Reasonable just swarm the swarm the ghost swarm Uh bodies do seem to be one of the viable anti shooting strategies. So I don't know what shooting shoots with you. That's for sure There's just no quality targets No, there are not there like and if if there are I can just have them not on the board curve one So there's that There you go. Like I get to play my own game and they don't get to play the game that I play So that's that's always the goal All right, good place in the meta. Well speaking of winning in unusual ways Uh and or banging your head up against a wall or whatever we want to say Let's use that to transition over to tonight's main topic Uh, which is slanesh The good and the bad Okay Uh, so Let's do a brief history here first. I think most people know this but we'll just be quick slanesh has an interesting history in AOS Obviously when the addition launched what we all came to learn was that slanesh Uh him herself has been captured And is currently imprisoned by the elf deities, uh in chains And the hosts the many the many myriad hosts of slanesh are racing around the Mortal realms trying to figure out where their god is imprisoned Uh, slanesh was already kind of on a rise before the book came out because at that time the meta was such that it like It could just kind of it was the right meta for what slanesh had to start You saw it start to tick up in its performance The initial book came out and it was exceedingly powerful in the meta it found itself in Which was a melee heavy meta If you dropped the original slanesh book Tomorrow into the current meta it wouldn't perform anywhere near where it did before It would get clobbered It would get shot off the table. Yeah, correct It it's in its original form. It was brutal and one-sided often But it it benefited from the fact that nobody had guns They just didn't exist. Well, I have like 70 some wounds, right? Like in its initial car incarnation Usually you were you were usually playing lists between 70 and 85 wounds. Yes Right. And so like your one drops would be like We're picking it all up. Right. Correct Pick every choice, mate. Uh, so The Yeah, like the other thing that slanesh always had as a hard counter by the by it was high armor Um, but in that original meta there was no high armor and there was no shooting So when it hit the 2019 meta and found neither of its Hard counters like it was scissors coming into a world bereft of rocks It was just paper as far as the eye could see, right? And so it established this ridiculous win rate Got repeatedly nerfed Like four or five times. It was nerfed basically Until eventually it just got a new book It is the It is a still a relatively new book Having come out not long before 3.0 in the great span of things And the new book was a very different experience from the old book And the meta the new book not only was it a lot Perhaps weaker, but it was also just different It also suddenly launched into a meta that was now very hostile to it Right Because there was a lot of shooting And as 3.0 ticked over we did in fact enter a very high armor meta Right It's just It didn't find itself really in a great place and it was of course much weaker And its points when it book first launched seemed like whoa, these are really high And so we all said ah, but it's okay. They've said points are going up for 3.0 So we're just priced ahead, you know, we knew 3.0 was on the horizon We're just pointed for 3.0 And then 3.0 came out and in fact No 20% I've been banging this drum for a year I don't think they've heard you Or I think they probably have and that's part of the problem Yeah, and so and then it it It the points went up again and that brings us more or less to That that brings us more or less to the modern day to the 3.0 slash 3.1 meta Which is what we're going to talk about today But I do want to talk about the good and the bad of this because I think it is easy to do say on this book But as slanesh is all about taking pleasure from pain We must search here for the good Somebody on twitter and I I I'll I'll try to see if I can figure out who it was real quick But it was the sharpest comment that I I absolutely loved Here we go. Uh, it was hamsfan hamsfan said we had the sadism book. We are now enjoying the masochism book And I have never That is the more succinct version of the Long story. I just told of its history Right. Yeah Yeah The first book was incredibly punishing to your opponent. They felt like they don't even know why they were playing the game This book is punishing to you and you don't even know why you are playing the game It's great. I'm just saying we have so many more acronyms to explore Sure. Sure. There's there's other words. Yeah, there's other letters in that general thing. Yeah It's true Uh, I'm excited for the new books I it would have been what I've been calling for tom the whole time if you remember for years I've been on that train calling for that. I know you've been calling for leather daddies. Yeah. Yeah someday my friend someday the year I thought I'd take him so the nirgle guys and turn them into leather daddies when he's when I first started to talk about it There you go. So here's the funny thing. I've been I've been painting up these uh, uh these guys The splitter thing and like they have the leather pants with like the holes in them Yeah, yeah And the one uh the one the one with the net has assless chaps Like those are a thing Like see those beef cakes Again, technically all chaps are as a matter of fact But my point being the models are out there folks for those that want the army the models are out there Sure, this just proves splitter fang are dedicated to slinnesh Like I said when they first released and nobody believed me I mean, I are a bunch of snake worshipers. Yeah, I like it. I like it. I I think you're dead on I think uh, we've I think we've uncovered a conspiracy here and I buy this completely Okay Let's uh, let's get to a little summary action here Uh Headline slinnesh is the worst performer of the new books This is yeah, exactly like This isn't a thing up for debate. I state it factually because it is factually provable Um, it is there is now you can make an argument That cruel boys who have who often find themselves in the same area Would also count there. They they tend to Overperform just slightly but frankly it's within the margin of error And that's but that's only a third of a book And somehow the other two in there are performing really well. Yes, I'm including bone splitters. They've they've been on a terror So I don't know what's going on there But any who? Um, that is simply a factually truth statement that it finds itself in a cohort of largely old out-of-date books In it's in that share the sullen six or the the low-end performers here Um, but let's start with what's good and and mars I want your you you've piloted slinnesh a lot including at tournaments recently under the new book So I want to see if you agree with my take here. What's good? There is a pretty decent mobility to the book. You've got some run and charge some run and shoot You have some good movement speeds. Obviously you lack flying for most pieces. There's a there's a there's a few exceptions You've got some good mobility, especially if you have like lurid haze that kind of thing and invaders Where you can be off-board and then you know coming in an ambush Or if you're in god seekers where you're plus one to charge as we all know even plus one to charge makes a huge difference Especially in a summoning army, which leads to point number two. They have very strong summoning It is pinned to a very bad mechanic, but it is strong We cannot Understate that it is a super strong mechanic They have a solid core allegiance ability in their ability to double tap on sixes melee only but it is like that is a good ability Like double tap on sixes army wide and and in fact you can triple tap on basically one unit in the game But it's I'm a little disappointed with that rule, but yeah Yes, basically one unit in the army can access that sub rule. So we're just going to say it's basically double taps Um, and they do have some medium quality shooting options. It's there unlike a lot of other chaos Um, you know, they find themselves with some some what I would call a medium to decent shooting Like there are things that put out rage like when I played against it at at brew hammer Um, I was pleasantly surprised by the output of bliss barbs Like now So the irony is that like I know that you said it's it's moderate, you know, but you know, vince we were doing a comparison Yeah between bliss barbs and the new oryx Like the new oryx earth guard, which are the like shooter dwarfs like the only range unit in the dwarfs um, and like 10 bliss barb come out more favorably generally than 10 warps Well, I'm sure we'll talk about that kind of thing when we get to that review But I there are there are some circumstances there, but sure Yeah, certainly The the bliss barbs constantly It's either I I over expect from them after they do really good for a few games and then they just kind of meh or they're like Or they do amazing where I'm like, oh don't worry about these bliss barbs They're not going to do anything to you really they suck Don't worry about them and then my opponent's like, okay, and I just blow a whole unit off the board There's no in between ever with them at scenes they either They don't work for you or then or their death dead in the water Yeah, they're they're a really interesting unit and we're certainly we're going to get into the specific units But I don't want to like I think shooting almost It's not always Let's be let's be very clear like they're not the answer to the answer Yeah, you're not going to win on the back of them But I think shooting is going to often not always but often be part of your strategy It just isn't shooting like we see shooting defining the meta now And by the way, I don't think I'm not saying that's a bad thing I don't want more long strikes salamanders sentinels in the world. Okay right um Like I yeah, I just I don't want that Um, martin. Yes, it should be I'll look and see what's going on after the show But yes, it certainly should be can I can I ask a question like yeah, maybe we'll get to this twin Well, we'll wait on it. We'll wait like because I wonder like if one small wording change in in allegiance Abilities could actually like turn this army not in a way. We want it to but I wonder if it could fix Some of the problems. Okay. Yeah, we're going to talk about the future. Yeah, we're going to talk about, you know The future and what could we potentially change? Yeah, uh What's a challenge? So what what like why is this army performing so poorly? okay, uh And to me the answer is summed up in the following points. So again, I'll I'll both you general you're both your feedback one low damage You know for for an army that was like the sort of definition of damage during the 2019 melee cycle honestly most the time it hits like a feather now uh and the Uh, so the the damage is pretty low overall especially in a meta that has become ramped up on crazy high damage, right? Uh, and look, I mean, I don't think you're ever going to have mega boss on maw crusher type damage That's not what I think we're looking at here But I mean we're we're not We're not anywhere close to that. That's not a threat here. Most of the units in this army Are very low damage. Um few tricks actually like it plays pretty straightforward warhammer actually It doesn't have the sort of tricks or exploits or things like that that a lot of armies have that they can utilize to to kind of pull themselves out of a out of a Downwards swing other than the summoning, right? Which can be controlled by a smart opponent Um, they have extremely low durability and defense like there are a few tough units in the army Um, a few but for the most part we're talking about an army of like five up saves That's kind of what the situation is here I mean what you've just said is they don't have a hammer and they don't have an anvil. Correct. Yeah Which it it In the first book with with the low durability and defense, but they're all locus Which everybody hated is what made them live to actually hit things because the glass jaw problem Then they took that away and then Now now not only do we not have defense everybody's like ramped up in the armor So our low numbers on damage is like it's not doing anything for us anymore Right, but I think the the locus change in the defense really Really paired well in sinking their threat I agree and I think ironically the locus is rather weak in the especially in the current meta now this could change over time Um, so everybody's clear the locus right now what it does Is your demon heroes effectively who who broadcast the locus? They can roll a die and on a four up Uh, they can stop the unit they're fighting from piling in which is not a bad effect like stopping pylons Not a bad effect Right because people will look at that and go. Yeah, but you know slobby bio piper does that and everybody rates him highly Uh, the net launcher does that on the shark and everybody rates that highly and my answer is though. That's all true But the net launcher does it on the same four up effectively though It could be on a three up obviously the greater demons are on a three up Yeah, which you're generally never going to have because you generally don't take the greater demons often Um with maybe a few exceptions Um, but but the net launcher is doing it at range Not in melee where like if you miss this role Then you're in for a world of pain Right. No, I I was playing against nergal with um Their plague bearers. Yeah at a block of 30 of them stopped them from piling for two turns I I was able to live from it the moment I failed that role My greater demon the keeper secrets is dead Right, right. Exactly. You have to risk so much to get it off because you're putting yourself directly in harm's way Whereas somebody like slobby can just do it. First of all, there's no role. They just Toot toot on the magic flute and it happens But it's also not the only thing that slobby can do right. He has two other toot toot songs he can play so So if stopping piling in isn't useful, which just the concept of it is often not useful in the current meta because you're often dealing with extremely small Elite hard-hitting units or monster heroes or stuff like that, right? Like there's whole armies against which that locus literally does nothing Like zero it just actually can have no effect Because everything in the army is an army of one If they completed the charge They can hit you Right. Yeah, like maybe ostensibly it keeps them from piling around you toward objective So like i'm not saying it doesn't maybe do something on the fringes I'm aware of these sorts of tactical things as someone who used the counter The the piling hopefully as much as I can But what i'm saying is in the standard case, it's not doing what it's intended to do, right, which is Keep the unit alive to some degree And the the final point is the points are still really high They just are and you're paying for the summoning Because it's not unreasonable that if you lean into a if you lean into an army that's sort of built on summoning Right like that is Targeted to ramp up the depravity points, which is what susan did, right? Sure. Absolutely. Yes Um It wouldn't be now i'll say those susan Did have that capability, but that's not the only thing he relied on And he often didn't need to like focus on the summoning to win games Okay But um But nonetheless if you lean into this and that's kind of your core area of focus The you can summon something like let's call it let's be extremely conservative and say summon 12 to 1600 points over the course of the game Yeah, okay That's a lot. That's like too much Yeah Right and now the you're summoning in kind of not great stuff Often like things that aren't you know, like it's it's throwing good money after bad to a degree But because you even have that capability Suddenly all the points had to shoot way through the roof to compensate for that Right. Yeah And I I think I've said it before and I still think it's true months on months and months on that The summoning was the failure of the design of this book. This book is badly designed Like I'll just state that straight out. I'm not even talking about power level. I don't care about that It could be like the most broke thing in the meta. It could be the worst thing in the meta it's badly designed but the But the summoning mechanic is again just like with Sons of Bedmont They had this one mechanic and it's so warped it twisted everything else about the book Right because because it suddenly became the lever That everything had to turn on Right. Yeah And and that's the problem you put your army down and you're just like my god I don't feel like I have an army compared to my opponent You know because the nature of the points Um Even if you're using the cheap units Yeah, you like you line up against even like a medium wound army like have you I'm sure You've played against soul blight grave lords with your slinnish, right? Yeah, yeah Yeah, exactly when I line up against soul blight. I'm just like are we playing the same game Did you get an extra thousand points? I like this does not I've got like 20 people over here Yeah, it's I'm not fielding an army. I feel fielding like a little Battalion maybe yeah war right it's not an army I'm looking across the board and I'm just like seeing just Swarms of troops still supported by heroes every one of these things is scary, right? And I'm like we we don't I don't I don't know what to do with any of this Uh It's a problem So I just think that like I'll tell you right now This is jumping ahead, but I'm just going to say this before we leave this section If I could just wave a magic wand I would like crush Summoning down to almost nothing. I would I would just in fact perfect world I would just eliminate it from the freaking book I would just cut it out and bring the points down to something reasonable But I know that chaos armies have to have summoning apparently so fine. I would weaken it way way way down So these points could come out down out of the stratosphere into something reasonable But I mean I would I would just hit it so hard So you can summon like a thing cool By the way on just another thing. I don't know if you ran into this Morris, but going to a tournament with sonesh. It's like pretty annoying Because you have to bring so much extra crap Yeah, I I had to bring an extra 30 demonette Uh a whole nother chariot and just in case I needed it. They're like I don't want to carry all that Right, right, exactly. You're bringing like a whole second army as just backup Because so you can summon like oh boy. Oh boy. Um, all right Mars did I miss anything here on the summary? Do you think I was I was fair on the the good bad? What's the challenge? What's and what's uh, no, yeah, it's It I what I've leaned into is mostly the mobility which is the good part and the summoning because yeah, that's what you got to work with um My biggest problem with the army now is compared to the old book is I miss being a glass cannon I miss being able to do damage and Like not being hit and being able to find ways to survive and yeah the points are still Disgustingly high Yeah It's it's funny too because this army was always propped up by like the various and sundry generic artifacts that have existed over time right so whether it was like the The artifacts that could make you fly or give you a four up against mortals or whatever like It's just or the the amulet old amulet of destiny like Constantly this army has been trying to be propped up by whatever generic stuff is out there It's the first move for so that's just quick anywhere else but this book. There's got to be something out here Uh, I missed that cloak. I'll let you fly. Yeah, I did keeper. I was fun We all do tom did I anything I missed? No, no, I think it's good. Okay. Okay. Cool. All right. Let's look at some stats Uh, now all of these stats are courtesy of ziggy rob and the t-sports stats center Thank you very much to the entire team to the entire stats team over at the t-sports network Ziggy rob and the crew are all awesome. I cannot explain as somebody who works with Data analytics on a regular basis for my professional career I cannot explain how much I tip my hat to you to all of you For the incredible wonderful work you did here in power bi Of accumulating all this data making it very transparent and easy to work with so thank you And the link is down below for the stat center on the honest war gamer network And so if you want to see any of these stats because there is a lot more that I don't have here you can Slice dice and julien fry this they have got you covered So if you want to see any more go to that link check it out. Thank you very much. Zihi rob and everybody Okay, so with that out of the way, let's talk about Uh, let's just start with win rate. Shall we let's let's keep this very simple Overall win rate I did not exclude mirror matches Uh I could have because they're technically probably getting bumped From mirror matches since that brings it to 50 50, right? but I didn't exclude them uh, and um the Uh, their win rate is 39 percent Making them tied with scaven for the fourth worst Performing army in the meta as defined by win rate Um now the bone splitter's number we're actually going to ignore Because bone splitters is really weird. It's a statistical outlier You shouldn't trust any of the bone splitter numbers in here because just up to the point where these stats were recorded as of like I pulled them Earlier in the week like before they had entered last week's data in Um where a bunch of bone splitter results actually came back really good The problem is the bone splitter's results are so few like there was so few people playing them That the stats were really uneven like new results would cause them to jump all over the place, right? There just wasn't enough matches So they just they had fallen below statistical significance Now not true for gits beasts scaven slanesh corn knight haunt like they had enough And so when you look here what you see is gits old book beasts old book scaven old book Corn old book knight haunt old book All right now again cruel boys relatively newer books. So okay that that We could do a different show on them and why it's probably worth the same discussion Um, but then sylvaneth flesh eater courts, right old old. So like we got a lot of old books in here So that's just really the newest book that's down in this thing and it to be clear It is falling outside of even the fat middle Yep, right the like Extremely generous 40 to 60 percent that frankly we shouldn't find acceptable anymore That we should give us we should be on we should be tuned enough now that we're 45 to 55 right um So You know like that's not great Just starting there. That's not great Not a great start Yeah, I don't know what else to say here except ouch Yeah, I mean Yeah, my friend john can't complain about how much slanesh is better than scaven now, but that's about it Brothers in losing that's right What to make this real what it would mean is that at a tournament? The most common slanesh result and in fact this is true because they have a slide on this I didn't grab this graphic But the most common slanesh result is going two and three Whoo All right Like if you look at the the the curve as to how people finish the slana like the slanesh Two and three or in other words winning two out of your five games is way higher than the benchmark You know what I mean like that's bad Yeah, right you don't want to be higher than the benchmark on that column Okay Okay, that's wrong Yes Uh And in fact they're hitting a little bit under that like enough people are only going one and four They're even dragging it down below that right that means that side of it is slightly winning Okay It's important to ask what is our faction representation and uh, Yep, that's not great either 1.2 percent Not a lot of people still play in it That right there tells you a lot Here's some perspective. It's almost half of the number of fire slayer players in the meta Yeah Think about that. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. Yeah token Yep, that's crazy to you fire slayer players for every one slanesh player on average now That said I brew hammer out of 50 people. We had two slanesh players Don't think no fire slayers, right? No fire slayers. Yeah, I don't think that was a fire slayer there There was yeah, your individual meta may vary as always Because our area has a better taste in an army. It's fine. Clearly. You don't like naked babies No, no, I could confidently say no to that without hesitation I their concept I like I like their story and everything the model range. It doesn't do Uh, they all you know as as you're weekly confirmed The new cover for the fire slayer book is in fact new art It's just because the fire slayers all look the same That uh, it looks like the old cover Yeah, the the issue here as as assistant ref quite wisely pointed out the only things with a lower meta representation right now Aren't actually full books. They're just subsections of a different book Like you understand, I mean like that's only one of the four armies in that book So of course that book like that book is it'd be like dividing up into like invaders or or godseekers or whatever Right, of course, it would fall even farther. Yeah Now it's you it is useful to separate auric war clans because they are so different in how they play Yes, they are Okay, so also not great people have just largely left this army behind I mean, I think a lot of people who love it have put it up on the shelf Um You know a lot of I mean maybe maybe they never caught the memo that shelf slanish ended That's probably a That's probably what happened I said it I said it like for two weeks and that was it. It's stuck for for two and a half years And then everybody just abandoned all all their models just all of them We need to start telling everybody for the next two weeks to bring them back out and we'll see that number rise There we go. There we go. All right Well, hopefully we'll give some people some ideas on how to get out there because we are we are going to talk about Like is that we're going to get to some what is the path to victory here looks like hope I'm hopeful that maybe we get some people to go put some armies on the table But you know, I'm going to be realistic about it. So, you know, There we go. That's I'm not gonna I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I'm going to be honest, but I do still love the army Turnies in winning position. Oh, I love this chart Subcredit here goes to the falcon From the 40k stats center who created this measurement what's called t-wip And this is something used in in 40k quite a bit T-wip means turnies in winning position and what you have to do to be a To to get onto this chart is be four and oh going into round five Oh, okay That's that means you're in a winning position to go five and oh, you don't have to win the final game, but you could Yes Exactly, you could so you are in a winning position You haven't submarineed for your four one, right by like losing the first game and then You know fighting your way back up You've went one two three four Victory victory victory victory right win win win win. That's tournament winning position Okay In the tournaments in winning position slanesh finds itself at the absolute bottom of the barrel It rounds up to be tied with fleshy your courts and gloom spite gets Who are all up to 0.4 percent though it in fact has the lowest Of all of them if you de-round those numbers um So 0.4 percent Yes Yeah, it's the best that's what it is Dan it's not the share of four oh results. It's the share of How many times in round four you were four and oh? right, so like Effectively there's a difference between the like four plus wins Because you could have lost in round one and then got your four wins and still get on the the four plus wins chart But you wouldn't get on this chart, right? You have to have only victories before round five to get on this chart to get in the t-whip Okay Super telling Yes, the ratio by the way the one on the right side Uh, the t-whip ratio is even worse although there we do slightly outperform fleshy your courts and gloom spite gets That's just factors in sort of overall meta representation into it as a ratio Uh, but it's still not great What you want is a t-whip ratio of one That means you're like Sort of what you would expect. Yeah So like things that are up above that are overperforming Right the things that are under that are underperforming. Okay, you know what I love about this chart Corridor and overlords isn't even on it There's another chart with them on don't worry. It's my favorite one. K. O. Isn't even on this chart Yeah, because they in no set of results the the reason this isn't every army Is because in no set of results were they in a in a tournament in winning position By the way that point four is one That's what that actually represents Right. Yep. Uh, yeah Yeah Okay, because they didn't use ma they didn't use nash con is the they use nash con as a new set because of the weights Correct. Otherwise, k. O would be down there too. You'd have your one down there. Yes, absolutely. Yeah Okay, win rate versus opposition faction. Um, again, please discount here, uh, big wap because there's only one matchup and the slinnish player won So good tell Um, all the rest of these have actual numbers of results Um in the Coradron overlords match Um, I think it's I know it's zero percent, but there actually just wasn't any matchups So that doesn't mean we beat that or we've lost to them every time It just meant they the two forces actually never played against each other in the in the entire data set That's not the story i'm telling people when we get off this sure sure So this is how often slinnish has won versus the opposition faction, right? And it's actually kind of interesting here of like Hey, oh is king Yeah, again They never played them No, they did they just can't win it is impossible to win with slinnish against kale. That's clearly clearly what we should take from this. Yes It is interesting to see where they're overperforming, right? Um, so like they where did where does slinnish overperform? Where does it do strong? Multi wound low armor models Yeah, it's not even just multi wound, but it's like massive because remember multi wound doesn't matter anymore Right, it's just number of units because you kill a dude. You that unit becomes depraved, right? um So let's look at it beast of chaos cities of sigmar gloom spike gets cruel boys Something that often these factions have in common is they have high numbers of units Okay, I would also point out that beasts Uh gloom spike and cruel boys are also other underperforming armies right Sort of in the low tier cities isn't cities pretty safely in the middle um, but like their allegiance ability Of the stopping pylon can pay the most dividends They have the most units to harvest depravity from right that are also often as you said low armor units, right? You got a lot of like five up six up saves in these other units your shooting can have sort of maximal impact You can spread depravity and still be victorious, right because you're still actually making real headway against the enemy force Okay Yeah, and so like it's just an interesting. I thought this was really interesting because It's those armies not only are they similarly weak, but they also have a Sort of set of foundational I don't know principles logic Functions that actually play into the strengths of slinnish Yeah, right Um, so I thought that was really interesting. Obviously a lot of things they do pretty poorly against even the low count um, so You know blades of corn like if you look at other sort of maybe factions that aren't super strong But they don't do great against Skaven blades of corn, right? None of this is too surprising And then there are the armies that really really really kick their teeth in Seraphon just take slinnish at the cleaners as someone who's played Seraphon with my slinnish. I can Say that sounds about right to me It's like that is a rough matchup um Soulblight grave lords again down at like 19 percent sylvaneth there wasn't a ton of matches But again, they sylvaneth just seemed to have the right answer here Um, and eyedneth deepkin again eyedneth deepkin is sort of a nightmare army for slinnish Uh, who needs to rely on their shooting to to get that depravity farm and eyedneth can obviously just go nah Yeah Sorry Eyedneth versus slinnish is kind of like slinnish, but good versus slinnish accurate Not inaccurate not inaccurate. Yeah um Yeah, anything else on this chart jump out at you. What else grabs your attention I 45 percent versus ovr. I think that's an interesting number It is surprising Like they're winning but not by much. I have to assume that's the mobility Keeping slinnish on the game there, right because because ocr is a pretty slow army Whereas, you know, truly you can outmaneuver them. I mean slinnish is not the fastest army in the meta. It's not even close But it's got some speed under it And it's certainly outmaneuvers ocr, which is one of the slowest armies in the meta really Do you want to know you want to know what I want more information on? Yeah, sure What's up with corn? Why is corn kicking the crap out of uh Out of slinnish corn is dominating Like corn who has a very low win rate, you know in general Seeds slinnish and it's like yeah, I got this Do you want to know the answer 75 it's because they have lots of junk attacks They make lots of attacks They their units tend to be highly destructive to low other low armor things like picture blood their star type stuff popping off They're great riders cleaning the clock out of slinnish. You can't withstand that kind of mortal wound pbaoe But at a deeper level tom Consider the two allegiance abilities Their allegiance ability is the dark mirror of slinnishes And if both people are playing to try to get their allegiance ability corn wins Okay Because with slinnish you're trying to injure units, but not kill them Corn is trying to kill units not injure them. Okay And so Like quite naturally their allegiance ability wins out in that direct matchup right because it turns out that removing enemy units Actually pretty important on the path to victory Yes, yeah way better than just putting damage on it. Right, right Yes, exactly And if you accidentally overkill a unit like if you do too good Right like yay. I actually I slinnish slinnish player. I actually removed the threat Right or whatever it was You you get nothing and they get their point Right So there you go. Um, all right, so that's the win rates versus opposition faction. I thought it was interesting Um, a lot of fun stuff there I am legitimately shocked that sons of behemoth only have a 44 win rate Against slinnish. That was the most surprising thing to me because One of the stats that's on here that I didn't bring into this presentation But it is on the on the table is what's the most common faction that they lose against You understand? I'm saying like what is your most common loss? And Sons of behemoth are by far and away the most common loss for slinnish Like they're at the top of the jar I I could see that. Yeah, I I brew him or I had to play against two different armies Of sons of behemoth and it was it was a rough fight the whole way, but yeah Yeah, I mean just because with the the low dps problem or the low damage problem of slinnish It's hard to pass that dps check, right? You got to really like you got to really work it Okay Focus firing with literally everything right one at a time just up one hit Yep, yep Yeah, that's why I said I think shooting has to be some part of the mix because Sometimes you need to like sometimes peppering around for the probability just isn't the right answer Sometimes you've got to focus fire and I think some amount of shooting is a good Uh, you know, it's a good strategy on the overall Sort of plan because then you yeah, sometimes you can pepper sometimes you can focus so yeah Yeah, Tom froze. We'll see if he comes back. I'm sure he'll be back in a minute Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. So let's get into with with with the stats done Okay Let's transition here into the good. I want to talk about the good stuff. Okay By the way, if it's yeah, if it's not on this list assume that like it's We can talk about what's bad, but you know, we've a lot is the answer there But okay. Yeah But let's talk about what's good and I divided this into heroes and units mars, right? Okay my list of good right now is What you see here this is this is what I rate in the hero section With maybe a couple honorable mentions that I didn't put on the slide, but we'll we'll get there So sig vault who I think is No disagreement legitimately good unit That's it. It's all I'll say I love him. Yeah, he's great. Tom. You're at a different angle now Yeah, your other camera turned on He'll figure it out in a second I love sig vault. I I'm glad he has super big shoulder pads because his shoulders must be tired From from carry in the whole army all day The The contorted epitome who I think even though she was nerfed still Can be good and still is an interesting Unit that can actually like being able to reroll casts is still powerful and and you know can give you some some interesting magical capability The sinet sinessa Uh, the the magic the the ranged magic key one for those who aren't as familiar with the army Not the melee fighty one. That's terrible Um, senesca's cheaper senesca's only nine wounds So she can still benefit from like cover and lookouts her and all that kind of stuff Her spell is actually quite good Uh, especially against a certain, you know, a lot of other threats that are out there sort of high mobility threats They're when she can pavine of slanesh them from a quite a long distance away and you know get some decent damage on It's actually a pretty good source of mortal wounds in the army, which is rare and then the blade bringer on Pick your chariot. I use the exalted chariot picture here, but it doesn't have to be great carrier for the arcane tome Because because of just the crazy high number of attacks Give her flaming weapon send her in with like 30 attacks Just choppy choppy choppy Going ham with two damage attacks, right? And then the mortal wound just on the charge and the start of combat where they could do oh, it's delicious Absolutely my honorable mention. I didn't put on the slide, but I do still have a love for would be the mask Who I think Has a place my my I love the mask so much Part of her problem is that she you know, she's all sensibly like a pinning unit. That's what she's really good at She's very fast Like super crazy mobile in the way that not only can she run and charge and fly when she piles in and stuff but She such a small base She can trigger the no pile in Thing the problem is there's a lot of units now that hit so hard and the units are so small Her value has diminished to some degree, right? Like if your enemy is playing dragons and fulminators It's like, okay I don't know what you're pinning, right? Um, this is my the good In the current book with the current points high as they are I think these all meet the bar of good Sure with with sigvelled honestly being great Oh, yeah, definitely I'd throw the soul feaster in there mostly I just Just some utility that you could help bring to your army to help debuff and let your guys live a little bit longer It's nice, but it depends on your matchups because things with 10 bravery Or not even it's it's not gonna help but If you're playing against anything lower than that, you got a good chance of debuffing their heroes to not kill your guys So yeah, yeah, and and picking up a few extra depravity in the in the in the mix of that, right? Which is nice. Yeah, the soul feaster is so interesting So for those who aren't familiar the soul feaster is the forge world keeper of secrets The one with all the wippy wippy tendrils coming back out of her head Um great model. Um, I have one she's kind of out of it out of sight, but she's like right there and um The issue with it's so funny because the soul feaster doesn't have the pile in twice command ability Right Which in the old world like pre 3.0 you were like terrible don't want her right because yeah the command ability was so good It was it was what made the unit worth it Now that the updated version of the command ability is so bad right that uh That honestly, I don't miss it on the soul feaster. I'd rather save the points because she's like 35 points cheaper. Is that right? Yeah Yeah, so because I think she's 385 versus 420. Is that right? Yeah, 420. Yeah. Yeah, how could I forget that? That's the number? Uh, because you probably need to celebrate that time of day to consider running a regular keeper of secrets and your starting army Uh, but don't yes all right But yeah, I think the soul feaster could be another one. Let's marz Do you want to do you want to talk about gludos? We've got some people in the in the chat shouting out gludos I'm gonna be honest at his current points cost. I don't rate him Um, but I'm interested for your for your take on him because you ran gludos at brughammer Yeah, I I think he's kind of Dependence on how you want to run your army. Um, obviously if you're doing mortals heavy like I did there I I think he's great invaluable because he keeps up with the army the bonuses he gives to Your heat and night mortals are great with not having to worry about battle shock And then the 12 inches of minus one to hit is just nice You pair that with the soul feast or minus one to hit you negate them negating your minus one right there, um And then j with uh the health strikers. I'm trying to list with glutos the soul feaster and then the wippy health strikers just to Make sure there's no way they could ever get there to hit back up It's pretty nice. I I I think he's definitely worth his points if you're if you're running with at least two units of mortals just to have in front of them and then His damage wise, uh, he's not as great. I find As the soul feast or keeper secrets that you summon in but he could hold his own, uh There's few games that I don't have him lasting to at least turn four or five Your game where you ate him with a dragon is pretty much the exception Yeah cars, I had some words with him um, not nice ones No, mainly mainly they were more like roar and But it's mostly the words but yeah My issue with glutos so glutos right now is 475 and you're right There's a lot of interesting utility there Let's not also forget that glutos has one of the few like hard bonuses to cast in the army Right, uh being a plus one to cast unbind and dispel which is good. Uh, that's a super strong ability Um, as long as glutos isn't too wounded He can give himself a five up word pretty reliably on an un you know an uncounterable effectively prayer effect It's not actually a prayer, but it's sort of the same thing. It's not too up It's described as a prayer. Yeah, it's just he just doesn't have a priest keyword or anything yeah, and uh You know he so like it's he's certainly any by the way, he's also on a three up save Which is very rare in this army um So he is one of a very small cohort of people who's on a relatively tough save and can stack and yes You mentioned is aura he broadcasts this for those who don't know this big 12 inch aura of neg wanted to hit basically if a model wonders in there Then they're I'm sorry for unit wonders in there. They're not going to hit um My issue with him is Is that he's 475 like I look At what 475 choose out of this army that's already pretty light on wounds and bodies You know, he's not a monster No, right, right. He's still two guys on an objective any any brackets He does bracket, um like He my problem with him is I just I've tried him a whole bunch And You know, I maybe there's a better maybe like we're going to talk about it. I think he I think he can have a place If you're going for like, uh a strong center Sort of anvil strat with him and pain bringers type of situation I think that's and probably helps writers to back up. I think that's where he probably excels and and has a value I think if you're trying to run any kind of more mixed list Or or trying to lean toward offense or something A you're not going to pay as much. It's also harder for him to like for that list of farm depravity Right, like your strong center list needs to be it's it's more focused in a single area It has less power projection now. It can which is unusual. It can take a hit Um, which is great because most of this army does just fold Like a wet paper bag um but you know I will say it if you Glutus would cross to good for me if you More or less build around him So that's what I'm saying Right, I don't think he's just like, oh, let me start with him and then I can kind of go wherever I want He's not a modular piece No Yeah, so that's like I have a My my screw you heroes list doesn't have him in it at all because he just doesn't fit With anything else it's trying to do Right okay Um while we're here We would be remiss if we did not mention just a little bit of the bad We've already dunked on the keeper of secrets plenty who The problem is hits like an absolute feather Dealing an average of seven damage cannot make herself pile in twice anymore um and Most importantly her command ability is still used in the combat phase where there you are now fighting with other very important Combat phase command abilities like all-out defense and all-out attack Uh, so she's getting it stuck with that kind of stuff too Um, I cannot explain how unworth it. I find the keeper of secrets. It's a perfectly fine summit But yeah, it's just it would I can't ever see it in a starting army ever And we should also shout out the worst efficiency model in The game In shellaxe that's right The absolute Exactly, uh, the this army does stand apart as having I I put this challenge out there There is no model more divorced From their points cost than shellaxe helving. It is the least efficient model in the game There is no more over-costed model anywhere Then shellaxe helving at 400 and five points for a for a model that makes Three attacks I mean you can get more and she can be made to double pylon No, you can't get more you can make somebody if you if you want to invest in a second keeper Keeper Yeah to follow her around. Yeah, you're right if like that is the definition of throwing good money after bad Like you might as well just rolled on your window on the highway and start throwing hundreds out the out the passenger side window Because that is the investment you're making there I'm gonna I'm gonna take that list to next year's brew hammer and beat kelly for worst army played That's what I'm gonna do There you go. Yeah, shellaxe is the least efficient unit in the entire game It's it's exciting like it's cool to have that distinction It's honestly fun and funny to me that it exists. I wouldn't play her at 200 points That's how bad she is I I don't ever look at her She has a six inch range attack Stop it. You got to stop. Yes, you're right. She does have the worst preset option of the weapons the normal keeper can take Because the hand you can take the hand the shield or the whip the hand heals you every combat phase Which is incredible. The shield at least gives you some kind of mortal wound protection. It sticks up, which is fine And the whip does nothing Yeah So yes, you're right. She actually you pick you pick one enemy monster model within range Cool Yeah, she's super bad Super bad. All right. Anyways That's our list of good and I think there is Forces here. We'll talk about path to victory and like what can successful armies look like in in slain ash Um Here later on because we're going to talk about how we can sort of put these pieces together into a couple different combinations Okay All right, let's talk about The good units Um, all right. So here's my list. Hellstriders who I think are legitimately good Legitimately great like I'm going to give them the designation of great Okay, hellstriders at 135 points I mean like the whips are fine because on the charge as you mentioned they can they can You know cause uh neg one to hit Uh, the the enemy gets neg one to hit, right? Um, but honestly, I don't care You can use them with claws beers as well. It's not super relevant to me Um, like the I like both. Yeah, I mean the claws beers have you know, whatever random stuff um I don't think it makes that big of a difference in the end. They're they're they are exactly what I want them to be They are great great effective Chaff they have a 14 inch base move They are on calf bases in a unit of five, which is like the hotness for chaff right because you can you can Horizontal them bad boys right out They can cover a lot of space with a little one of you one inch gap in between them And when they need to get somewhere they get there like because they're so fast You kick the auto six run or something and boom, they're 20 inches away. It's wonderful. Yep Uh, and they have a base four up save Which in this army is good. Like they're actually reasonably decent like decently tough chaff I like everything about them And as you said, there's some utility with the the like if you take the the Whippies the whippy whips, you know when you charge you also give somebody neg one to hit which is a great combo charge tactic Right. Yeah, it they're great, too Because you tell like you tell your opponent. Okay, these guys will make you may one when they charge or they get Extra damage on the charge. They're more focused on like, oh, I better not let them charge anything I care about rather than focusing on everything else you're doing it too. It's it's great Yeah, yeah, I like I rate them. I think they are a great unit I think a lot of armies would would want a unit like this is my honest answer Um, like there are a lot of armies that don't have a quality speed relatively tough chaff unit like this And so standout absolute standout health striters A plus way to go like it it it warms my cold icy dead heart when I put my health striters on the table um The uh liberators are 115 points Uh, so there you go Um, so they're about 20 points more than liberators. They're they're uh five points more than vindictors as a baseline there That's probably a better baseline Uh, bliss barb seekers Um, you know a lot not all of the shooting power, but they bring a lot of the shooting power of um Of the regular bliss barbs, but they do so with a heck of a lot more wounds So a unit of five at four wounds a piece is 20 wounds. Obviously, that's pretty simple math Yeah, good range very high mobility Uh, and they still put out a lot of shots because there are three shots each So you get you get a good number of shots out of the unit Uh, yeah, I think bliss barb seekers. It was a this was a strong component of Um sues list used bliss barb seekers Um, I think they're yeah, I think bliss barb seekers are good Again, it's like in a unit of five coherency. It's an issue. They have an extreme amount of speed They have a good amount of range in what they can do with their They're shooting because they're bringing an 18 inch range with three shots each Um now given they are on fours and fours and they don't have the little They don't have the little yeah the little plus one to wound dingbat following them around like the footwinds do Uh, they should have just strapped him to like another seeker Yeah, just like the old speakers do exactly just kind of following them around Maybe just tie him onto the front of one of them um But yeah, like they're uh, you know, they're perfectly um Perfectly great Like no greats probably strong but they're perfectly good Uh as a unit they're 220 points Which isn't crazy For 20 wounds. It makes them one of the most points to wounds efficient units in the army And there there wouldn't be a terrible unit to rally either No, you get it. You get it. Yeah, you're absolutely right because they tend to engage at range. They end they end up being extremely rallyable Uh, right and so they like when you rally even one guy back you're getting back three shots and a four wound Thing yeah back into the unit, right? So it's a strong rally target. Absolutely um So like them and then I used the twin souls picture here because in I honestly think twin souls Win out right now over pain bringers But I would put pain bringers on my Like honorable mention list and I could see people making arguments both directions The reason the twin pain bringer side. Yeah, and that's fine like I I you know I think that you can make good arguments for both Like so everybody understands pain bringers are a six inch move four up save 145 points two wounds each you buy them in a unit of five So you're getting 10 wounds for 145 points. They make two attacks on threes threes neg one one six is to wound our Uh, our mortals six is to wound Our mortals it's everything all the mortal triggers which this army has a Certain units have a good amount of But they always sit on the wound because they already have a six on the hit trigger Yeah, they double tap on they double tap. Yes in melee. Now remember you don't get that with shooting I don't know why I guess just because we're not allowed to have any fun Um, like it. Yes No, actually like that's that's one of my solutions But what we're gonna get to is if they double tapped with shooting Um, like that would solve the bliss bar problem like something would become a really good option Yeah, I I don't disagree with you. It's it's it's unbelievable that we we got that rule and they just didn't get they They introduced a bunch of new shooting units and then rewrote that rule and we're like no shooting No case not only that like that that want to be in units of 20 Right. Yeah, right that They could actually hit that marker. No drops I had a unit of 20 pain bringers in my list and I was so happy with it so happy And at 3.0 I was like now you can't do that anymore. I was like, right Oh, so they're just gonna rewrite the rule with the FAQ FAQ drops. I'm like, oh No, I get nothing Not do that anymore. Which by the way, I mean that's what happened with A bunch of units and a third fold in ko. Yeah, sure All the blue boys no longer were able to get uh, suddenly they suddenly just didn't benefit from the allegiance. Yeah Right. So the the key with pain bringers that they have a built-in plus one to save all the time Which is and that's what I like about them It's I don't have to worry so much about spending all defense or something on them Yep, if somebody has a minus one around I'm like, yeah, they're fine The the reason I like twin souls is There is there an eight inch move base Which I know doesn't sound like that big of a difference But in my estimation the difference between moving eight and moving six actually does end up mattering over the course of a game Um, yeah And they're base two damage. They don't they're they're a weird standout unit that they don't have rend But being base two damage is really good Uh You have to use your twin souls very carefully Like you need to sort of multi engage if you're going with a twin soul strategy because you can't let your opponent all out Defense Against that unit you need to give them a different thing. They want to be all out. Defensing against with your twin souls um but What I like about twin souls, they're they're three attacks each on fours and threes no rend two damage It's it's a perfectly good profile Um, obviously it's there's plenty enough ways in the army Just you can all out attack them and put them on threes and threes and you should be running some form of Awkward essence to give you real ones to hit or Once every other round. This is the thing about twin souls that bothers the living crap out of me. By the way twin souls are 20 more points They are 165 yeah, yeah, um, but Twin souls have a rule that I love and hate simultaneously. So it's very slownesh Yeah In that they do this little stance dancey thing where They can choose to it's not shoes, but they whatever They're two dances Yes, you pick one to start and that sets the rotation for the rest of the game, right? So they they either like when you set it at the start they either get re-roll hits Re-roll all hits, which is great. It's a strong thing. Especially when you hit on fours. It just it It's crazy how much more effective it makes them when you get them on re-roll hits, right? And or you can give them a five up ward Love it Also love it right that makes them Quite tough actually because a five up ward on a unit is real strong as we've seen from nergal The issue is you have no control over That effect like you can start it you can choose your turn one And then from there they have to alternate back and forth and back and forth I mean you basically unless you're unless they take turn one and you're into them In combat turn one you're basically always going to do defensive turn one So that they are primed to hit hard when they go into combat in turn two. Yep. Yeah Yeah, and and it's just problematic because oftentimes they'll just accidentally end up in the wrong stance For what you need them to be in that round for things you couldn't have foreseen in round three and four Right like it's pretty you can sort of understand the shape of the flow of the game in one and two But like we're not Sherlock Holmes over here, right? Like that's you don't play aos five steps ahead like I know how I know how all the units will be positioned in turn five Like no, okay, come on. You know what an easy one would have done Would have been to say they can choose to exit the stance instead of choosing one They can choose to exit and you can never do sequels the same chance to run through Sure, there's 10 ways they could have written it that it wasn't the awful way they did But here we are But nonetheless, I still like twin souls. I've run the twin souls quite a bit Um, and they they can do work. Uh, I especially like them actually in lurid haze coming off the side Uh, maybe with like a uh a sigvald and you just kind of give them a long charge like you can take a unit of 10 Um, oh by the way, the other thing about them that's super relevant that I didn't mention is they have a two inch reach So they're actually perfectly viable in a unit of 10 because they can fight over the the top of their friends Even with the the coherency rules Um, yeah So like sigvald is going to definitely make the charge and draw the attention. So either you land the long nine with them Off of the ego pump who can re-roll best champion name in the game Um, or you don't and it's fine, right? Because like there's already somebody who definitely got in there It is drawing a lot of attention. So it doesn't matter that they're sitting there Yeah And if you stance dance correct, you could you know, you can be in a position where you're all right to absorb the hit Um, now I didn't put bliss barbs on this list regular bliss barbs on foot I hate them Okay I think they're not good That's my take but Mars you've used them. We talked you talked about them a little at the beginning Do you want to do you want to what's what's the what's the upside on bliss barbs, right? Break them down for everybody I I like they they can run and shoot which I like They have uh, they have 20 shots going into something with running and shootings. That's very nice. Uh You got You you give them, uh A lot of attack. You got threes and threes for shooting with minus one into one Can't argue with I it's it's just Compared to what you have in the army for like reaching out and touching people It's what we that's the best thing we've got and their battle line If you're not worried about uh, like hellstriders, so just run out there and everything I think it's a better option compared to demonets by a mile. Oh god, it's not even close there. I'll give you that. Yeah Yeah, and if you don't want to take a lord of pain as general like they're not a bad way to just to fill up the Slots and just have a way to just chip the gravity or Focus fire like when I played against, uh, some to be a month like that was that was my go to is just Pump 40 shots and a giant take them down and then move on. Yeah So so they have they have some utility. It's I think the biggest problem is really the point with them It's there's so much and they you look at them wrong and they're just all gone right away I people's Chaff that's supposed to die will go in and just eat them Right, right, and and it's not worth it at that point Yeah, they are they are legitimately so so everybody let's let's level set here Sixth inch move as you mentioned they have run in charge So they they can they've got some good mobility like sorry not run in charge run in charge. I apologize They have a 30 inch threat range. Yes 30 inch maximum threat, which is good. Like it's good Um, you know, they do have to get keep mine though. They that to achieve that 30 That's not a long strikes 30 inch range, right? That's a we have to be within 18 inches of you Right. Yeah, and now they're coming And now now somebody can come say hi, right? They do have to run up into danger range of where things can get back at them, right? And with an army with so little bodies to begin with It's hard to keep them protected Right, it's hard to actually then like chap them or something. No, no They are the they are usually the sacrificial lamb and They're 170 points for effectively 11 wounds because of their weird little homunculi Uh on a six up save and that's six up save and bravery six and you like Bravery becomes a thing if you have multiple units of bliss barbs because they will suffer casualties if anything looks at them A scantz. I mean, I think you're going to take one unit of 20, right? And if you wanted more bliss bars, you take the the striders I honestly, I think you only take them in tens. I think it's too much of a risk You take them in 20. It's way too easy for them to accidentally get blown up Yeah, uh, the the few times I've ran them as 20. That's exactly what happened It's a it's a big block of running them around too So just trying to keep them safe from anything it it's really hard like the I mean like this is going to seem a twisted example but the halberd attacks off of one fulminator can wipe this unit mathematically Not the mount not the other guy or his mount One quarter of that attack profile will wipe that whole unit on average Like it'll pick it up. Okay That's challenging Right now, obviously fulminators are an incredibly hard hitting unit, but the point is Like on gore now are going to come into you or gore god forbid you get charged by like 10 gore And and they're going to do work on you Well, I mean your stand and shoot will kill the 10 gore You're like Yes, you hope You know, right, right. They didn't just probably bring the 10 gore, but yes 40 shots Even on fives, which is what it would be. No, we're not talking about 20. I'm talking about tens We're talking about tenors right now. So a tenor would make 20 shots Yeah, I'm saying a 20 or but yes, go ahead The problem with that is you're talking about okay, let's say you take a 20 and you're banking on unleash hell What are you hitting on there tom? Fine. No, I acknowledge that like yeah Like which means that you're only hitting with a third of your attack So you hit with 13 of those 13 you wound on like seven You wound on seven if they have a four up save on the way in They cut a third of that out meaning you do about four words or what? Yeah gores are like a five up save. I understand. I'm not I'm not like I'm not that was my point of like My point was only to say if something like that gets into you you're in extreme trouble from a 75 point unit Right, okay Like if we want to make this clear, I'll charge you with two gore units And I'm still clear in 30 points or 20 points on you. Sure Sure right Okay, this is the this is the problem like it's their job Is effectively as grant just said it's kind of this like pepper Thing right the idea is they can sort of peppery wounds around and feed your depravity The problem is One there's a lot of units in the game that they just won't damage Right like it will withstand that neg one shooting and you'll actually fail To get a a wound through Okay, especially if you try to split your shots Sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah right There's a lot of units in the game That even if they do kill a couple and you get the depravity like if you kill a couple of things They'll recur them back right Right because either through rally or advanced rally tactics because there's a lot of people Or it's like there's a lot more like I rally on a better number Creeping into the meta not to mention just recursion recursion recursion You know like I mentioned against so blight like so blight is such a nightmare to fight with like a pepper strategy Because they're like whatever So blight knight on the same way here both of these are like nightmare armies for for slainesh to fight Right because we you because they just read their units just go back to full At least with knight on I don't have to worry about how bad my rend is. Yeah exactly Exactly um So, you know my point is is that like There I understand what they're there for what I'm alleging is that is a failed strategy There's too many things in the game not even just by the way on like I'm not talking about just you can leave like the broken armies out of this or whatever Bent armies or top armies or I don't want to I don't want to slander them But like we'll take the strong armies out of this right the top tier. Yeah, there's plenty of stuff hiding around the mid table That's just gonna be like That unit's dead Like I just I'm going to kill them and they won't be like and they're dead I had to put no real effort into this. I didn't need a hammer Right, right. Yeah So and and by the way Um, you know, you like yes, you can all attack and get them to threes and threes But you can only all attack one of the units in the shooting phase, right? So yeah, if you've got multiple units a unit or 20 But again, then that right I get it. I get it. It's just such a risk Yeah, no, I see it the way I ran the two I had one that I wanted like I try to kill something That's the one I'm getting my all out attack on the other one. I'm hoping just a pepper Get at least a wound in for the depravity that I could harvest later. Yeah just Yeah, absolutely And I mean, you know, I I think Michael Warner them because yeah, they're not as I said that I find them swingy No, as you're saying, yeah, I agree with you you cut for a second But I agree with you they are swingy and I agree with Michael Warner who said, you know The game design leads into mostly lifting opponents units on the table not spreading wounds around, right? Like the the meta we're in right now is a trading meta Right, like I kill your unit. You're trying to make me like good players lead you into bad trades I lift your unit you come lift mine, but I win out in that trade, right? Yeah, so on and so forth And it's very hard for slanesh to play the trading game All of their units are very expensive if they fully trade if they actually kill the unit they get no depravity off it If their unit dies completely, which it often does you get no depravity off of it, right? And so this is the challenge like in a trading high damage meta slanesh is in a rough spot That's actually why I like all the units that are on this on the screen right now Because I think they actually do trade well Right like helistriders are the perfect chaff that that people might think they can just pick up and then suddenly they don't Because so they might put just not enough into it like it's 10 wounds on a 4 up save doesn't sound like a lot But it's you know You just pop off the all-in-defense and suddenly they'll stay alive The the double tap ability is only for uh 20 or more model or triple pop is 20 or more models 20 or more models. Yeah in melee only. Yeah right uh So but I but like I rate all of these because I think like again twin souls I think are good to play the trading game right like you you lure them in With your your helistriders You counter punch with the the twin souls right like that kind of a counter punch strategy I think works if they can get in there you can kind of set up multiples of those charges And you can get in there and kind of do those you play that game um all right We shouldn't leave this slide behind without talking about Are they the worst basic demon in the game? If not, it's only because Uh bloodletters are also so bad But daemonettes. Yeah Woo boy I'm just saying bloodletters are worse just because demonettes are on 20 millimeter bases Yeah, yeah the 25 mil base is probably what keeps daemonettes from occupying the worst base demon spot. Yeah, but at 140 points for what they are They're just real bad It's shocking how bad daemonettes are maybe like Go ahead. I've I've gone round this with so many people. I'm ready to I it's fine. I can dunk on this all day I I haven't heard an argument from anybody that said they're Worth it or good. So I'm interested No, so like a block of 20 Sure, okay as as a missile yep As a like I'm not saying you don't hoard that you like you don't do a bunch of this, right? Yeah, but a single block of 20 as a missile Is not a terrible way to spend 280 points in this army when you look at what else it's competing Okay, let's start that is go ahead. I'll let you like Because like so I'm thinking about as one of the counter punching units, right? Because there are things that they will go into And they like I'm thinking about like a giant right sure imagine that they went into a giant where um Where like because you're probably going to be in combat with multiple giants So if you can force them to all defense another giant and not who they're those those Like again, you're always engineering what fights like that's what slimesh is trying to do It has to force bad decisions on my command abilities. No no disagreement So if you can get in like a lineup for example as a counter punch 20 day mats into a giant You're doing 40 attacks These are 41 but you're What 41 sure. Yeah, um and sixes are triple tapping Sixes triple tap. Yep Um, that's not terrible Like you're gonna you're gonna end up turning out probably around I haven't done the math But I think it's around 40 hits. Is that right the 40 wounds? Uh, so you only hit base with 20 um, but of those Six and a half are sixes. So we'll just round up and say seven Which we'll add another 14 attacks back in so you hit with you effectively pull 34 Uh hits out and then you get 17 Yeah, yeah, I'm writing on I'm writing on base numbers here Yeah, it actually all out attack wouldn't move the number that much What moves the numbers more is if they happen to have acquiescence on them and you get re-roll ones Because then you might trip and it increased your chance of tripping into another six or two right The the issue there is you charge the giant. Let's say you do that. Yeah, giant turns to you and goes cool stomp. Boom Okay, now you're not at 20 anymore Yeah Yeah Right, there's so many incidental wounds that happen in this game. Sure. Sure like like you're gonna you're gonna do You're gonna put them in in heartlands I guess sure. I mean, yeah, why not be high dropped in this army too Like anything like anything that is is going to be model dependent upon keeping their numbers up for That's up. You have to you have to prevent that and that's gonna have to go in hundreds I mean, I'm doing the same thing with uh in my night hunt should order it like I'm going high drop Like layers of charging and counter charging And just assuming that like in order to stop things from getting stumped off or preventing command a bit like That stuff goes in in hundreds I I get what you're saying. I I really do. Okay But here's the problem There for that 280 points You get 20 wounds on a five up save now What's cool about it is that you do have like this I'll give the defense they have re-roll charges built in and they have run in turn Okay, which are two good rules. They have base on their scroll The problem is This isn't a meta that allows That kind of unit to live Like there is no unit playing a functional role in a successful army right now that acts like that Because there is like, okay great. You're in hunters. You charge near anything that shoots you're below 20 Yeah Yeah, they have any kind of range You're below 20 because they're super incentivized to just like do a couple wounds to that unit and bring it down right and And keep in mind again, anything that looks at them will damage them Right now, that's that like I've been running Like I've been running life swarm and it's super effective for filling filling units back up Mm-hmm Um, I think they are a wonderful target to have a life swarm around them to keep pushing them back to 20 Yeah, I mean you don't have the points or the magical Dominance really to to to bet on getting that off Look, let's take in and let's talk about you never bet on it But it's always a perk when it goes off. Yeah, I mean like mirror actually has some good mortal wounds Like there's there's stuff let tom let's do a simple comparison here is best agor Like I'm let's forget forget the hurt zone exists. It just got smashed to rubble doesn't exist. Okay Our best agor as they exist pre boc buff of like Can they carry your army? I would call them like um I would call them a good unit in boc, right? They're decent Uh, maybe like if you did uh, if you did like 10 units of them and waves, you know a bunch of missiles Sure. Okay. Let's look at best agor stats. First of all best agor five points cheaper. Let's start there But they're like threes and threes neg one ren plus one attacks On the charge of their three attacks two attacks fours and threes neg one one damage better to wound same number of attacks Okay, now give it. These guys are on 13. They get an attack on the charge. They gain an attack on the charge. Yep That's exactly right Um, and they can run in charge They're a four up base save. That's right. They also have run in charge They also have a way to get plus three moved just by standing near another dude And yes, as you just mentioned they get plus one to hit if they attack somebody with 10 or more models They get real hits to one if they fight an order unit and they get plus one attack in the turn that they charged Okay, they are I undoubtedly A way better unit four cheaper And I agree with they're like, okay, but you know what? I can't have best agor in my slinnish army and you can't actually I mean, but but not actually get my good abilities, right? You don't get a benefit from any of our allegiance abilities Yes Right, which is the problem. Like if I could have best score triple tapping, uh, when slinnish, that's what I would be doing um but like I Given the infantry options that slinnish actually has It's about they're about as good as like I again I could see a world where I would put 20 in a list in a mixed arms like Utility telling you you would run those and then learn That's what yeah, uh, I've had I I I'd try to run demonets because I didn't want to build Hell straters at all And I like that was my idea, you know triple tapping. I'll run a block of 30 of them No way they're gonna eat through 30 of them and it's never worked out Right. I mean, they just explode Yeah, so many points. Yeah, it is and and like And like it's the only way you're ever going to get a triple tap off is by having 30 in the I Yeah, I had 30 of them and they were gone the moment they hit Combat like it was down to three of them against, uh, three pigs Right Yeah, that's the kind of world Okay Now Where demonets can be interesting is as a summon like summoning 30 minutes It's perfectly fine because you're dropping like if you're in god seekers or something And you summon 30 demonets who show up with plus one to charge Right and have built-in reroll to charge That's a great something because then you can land it right there. They're they're like they're safe Yes, they might still get uh unleashed on the way in but it's a summon unit. It's for you didn't pay for it Right, like if they're charging in with 30, which is 12 to gravity even through some unleashes You'll you'll live and stay over your 20 line, right? That's a great summon Again, it's a 120 summon just because of that So if they were 110 points I here's my honest answer. I don't think they have a As they exist I don't think they have a role in the current meta I hear that would would you consider taking them at one time? I would I run I'm sure Like just see I need to feel what it feels like. I would try it I don't think it would work, but I would try it That's my answer You know, like I said right now they're kind of relegated to the summoning world. That's where they live I try 110 100 just uh Just the reason why in my one 10 110 is the 20% reduction From where they currently are. Yeah, I understand Yep, okay, it free up more points for me to play it and like for more seekers or something. It'd be interesting. I try it All right, let's talk about the path to victory because Like we've we've we as we have said there's there's some bad stuff here, but there's some good stuff here And and I think there are units that you can put together into a combination in a couple different play styles To to to have an army that's going to give a good game Right? That's and that's what you that's what you want. I don't think there's any auto win Crap in this army and frankly, I don't that's fine okay Yeah, fundamentally, I'm challenged with with running this army now because It's old version was kind of exactly what I liked not the locus. I hated the locus. I wish that had never existed I've said from that but like the way it damaged before Was what I like. I like big smashy damaging armies Right, right. Yeah, like I carry the same disappointment with sons and that they're not big smashing damaged armies That they're just like stand there and live people. I built my son's army to big big smashy damaging armies Because that's how I like playing it like Yeah, it's more fun that way for me, you know, I like my iron jaws. I play a smashy melee storm cast army I've never seen a long strike in a list that I've made. You know, I never will see a long strike in a list. I made um, it's not my style And right now this list became it's a very very like so that's just a very finesse army And that doesn't tend to be my style. I tend to find that pretty exhausting Um to to play Um, I like just I like things that hit hard. I don't care if I didn't die Fine, right? I I like the glass cannon of like, yeah, I'm gonna go trade But I I'll kill the thing and then you'll kill the thing I would point out by the way that the current game with all of its objective like the battle tactics Incentivizes the smashy smashy as well Right because battle tactics are all like kill that unit that's battle line kill that unit that's a warlord, right? A lot of stuff involves killing things Right and so that stuff, um Is hard for slainesh to complete. Okay Cool beats, but what's our what's our path to victory? Here's my three takes Maybe there's more. I'll be interested Mars. See what you think one MSU skirmish. So many units Uh, you know a lot of shooting capability in here. So you're gonna have some bliss barbs on foot probably You're gonna have some bliss barb seekers Right and you kind of you might have You have the ability to damage multiple enemy units or to focus fire when you need to Right. So you can kind of widen or focus the the aperture as it were as needed, right? Um, and you could have optional sort of allied coalition shooting units such as cockatrice's That's what bill susan did, right? He had three cockatrices in his list. Um, just to have these extra shooting mortal wound units Right, um, because it's uh, it was cheap. It's cheaper than basically anything in this army And it has the potential to four up due d6 mortals Which is really strong and covers a weakness that slainesh often has right If the cockatrice is open up They can often bring a unit weak and then if you need to remove it with more focused shooting you can Um, I think I think that's one strap The second it's okay. Please one. Yeah, you know, no, I like it. Uh I've I've done something like that. Uh, Cockatrice both, uh, ungorators in the list too because they're cheaper And you do spend the same amount of points pretty much for a reinforced unit of them Then you would with bliss barbs To get more shot. Well the same amount of shots. It's it's a fun list and it does have some gas in it Yeah, it's interesting because of the shooting units Yeah, because of the shooting units not benefiting from the allegiance abilities You actually don't suffer much by dipping into coalition units Right, like they're they weren't gonna locus anyways because they're a unit not a hero They weren't gonna double tap because they're a shooting unit So it's like, all right I still get depravity out of them because they're a unit that exists on the table. Who cares? Yeah, these guys also have a terrible save in bravery. So who cares? Like I kind of wish that they could still tap into some of the slaves units With some of their stuff like I'd be really interested to see what chaos warriors do when they're double and triple tapping I I used to run them back when we could and I really really enjoyed it They're fun. They were obviously they were slower than the rest of the army, but uh, I felt they did a better anvil job than the pain bringers do right by chaos mates Yeah, oh, they'd be great too. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think they used to be part of the strong center strategy um chaos warriors that is to say Um, obviously that went away when they lost the access to the allegiance abilities Um, but yeah, so you still got a strong center strat Which is I think as I mentioned earlier like glutos and a combination of pain bringers twin souls something like that You you can mix just a small amount of shooting into here and I think you should But like this is often going to use health riders for chaff or to or to counter charge in and stack the negatives to hit right um And you're kind of hoping to sort of win in the grind as it were Um, yeah And it works best on scenarios where the objectives are more centered Like where you're trying to get into the midboard and and do your work It's harder on the very spread six objectives for the strong center to to bring it home Um, with those ones on the strong center, you just you hope they try to go after glutos And use their army trying to get there and then you spread out, but great. Yep uh And but I think there is a there is a strat there The pain bringers can be pretty tough, especially when near glutos and and with other Sort of associated support that could be happening um in just units This army is sort of bereft of a lot of synergy So your your synergies happen in your unit combinations more than they happen in an ability that's printed on the Why doesn't she why do twins holes not have the demon keyword as well? Uh because life is funny tom I I don't know they have a demon in them. That's literally their whole story. Yes that they are two souls zero Yeah I guess if you just shove a demon in a mortal that doesn't count anymore the mortal wins So what that tells me is you got to really get all stories Yeah, you got to really get the demon in there like deep to become a full demon, right? He's he's kind of hanging out. It's fine At what point does a demon prince stop being a mortal and become a demon at at what part of the transition Right. Yeah, what did he he's got to become enough demon farther than valkia Yeah, yeah, you gotta be farther than valkia. Yeah, exactly Yeah, the hooves and wings not enough Right go farther Uh, and then my last list here is called bet it all on sigval'd Uh, and yep, you know like sigval. It's a crazy good power piece Um, he's offensive. He's tough Especially in like lurid haze where you're deploying deploying him for sort of maximum carnage Um, he can often get in where people don't want him to be He's on a relatively small base for for what, you know, you're trying to do that is to say It's not a unit. It's hard. It's harder for them to block him out of everywhere Yeah, um, he comes in almost guaranteed to charge because of his built-in plus three to charge So, you know, whether you're in if you're in like lurid haze invaders where you're coming in off the side with him He's on a six. Obviously a rerollable six if you know, assuming you don't need to charge anybody else um Because he is a hero and can can make himself reroll his own charge a This actually is one of the few places you might I say this very lightly Might think about having a keeper of secrets just to make sigval double tap Since he is one of the most damaging units in the army and you want him to clear what he fights Because you don't want to hit back Well, no, you can take the hit back. That's not what you're concerned about really I mean, he's he's on a three up four up again He is he is the toughest model in the army just raw save wise Combat is yeah, you want him to charge again Because remember his attacks is set to his charge roll. Otherwise it's five and so like You know the fact that your average charge roll is a seven means You're gonna get just because that's 2d6 Means it's worth plus two attacks to him to keep charging your charge total or your No, it's your unmodified of course. It's your unmodified Do nothing in the army is good, tom You got to put that idea away See you're thinking like how normal armies are written Where there's like some good thing that's kind of an interesting trick that is not present here Error 404 file not found. Okay I hear that if there's ever a way I understand hopeful if you ever ask yourself the following question Wait, that rule could be implemented good or bad. Which way is it implemented? It's bad. Just you can answer that right away. Boom bad Instantly, there's no counter examples But anyways, you keep your expectations low. You're excited for these things. Yeah, exactly. I get seven attacks. Okay Yeah, boy And you know, and obviously sigval its great ability is that he cuts through ward saves, right? He doesn't allow he doesn't allow ward saves Which makes him like a nightmare to something like Nurgle or enemy heroes that rely on their ward saves to stay alive Like all the other enemy 300 point-ish heroes or stuff like that, you know people who rely on their ward saves to live He will cut them down Like he just slices through those boys uh, so like because you know, you get him into something like phoenix guard or hearth guard or Any Nurgle unit like he'll he'll lift a unit of blight kings like it's nothing Okay So That's where he's super strong Yeah, and like he is in my estimation The good target for the pile in twice because you want him to clear that so that he can keep charging Right if something comes into him, you want him fighting twice so he can keep charging the next time it comes to your turn like whatever, right? Um, oh don't worry, brianess. We're gonna talk about some potential fixes as well Did I miss any strats? I think we covered it or like these to me feel like the three strats with the army Yeah, yeah, and I I would say betting it all on sygval. Does it probably a good one? No, but it's fine turn from you. It's bad. Oh, it's the reason why I keep playing lurid haze because I put him in every list Just to do this. Yeah. Yeah, keep in mind Tom by the way, and this might be something that you like not being deep in the heart of slanesh Lurid haze has a second command ability. That's all up defense Like lurid haze it's it's it brings gives you a unique command ability That's just a duplicate of all out defense So it allows you to all out defense twice in the army during the combat phase You could use it at any time not at the when they get picked too So you didn't watch or wait like, okay, I will use it now Yes, technically it still has the wording that would allow you to use it after the role if you really wanted to be the worst person in the world Okay, so you're gonna be like roll Any advantage you get Got a couple twos there Spin that bad boy up Right, uh, but yeah, I mean that's kind of a Kind of a goofball move Yeah But yes, so I Yeah, look, we got a group. We got to take what we can get here The But those those feel like the three strats to me suza went for sort of the msu skirmish I've played against the the and have played the strong center build in the end. It's not for me because it The problem with strong center is it it kind of limits actually one of the strengths of the army Which is the mobility and the depravity But yeah at the same like you sacrifice your strengths to cover your weaknesses If that makes sense Which can actually be a decent trade in the middle But it doesn't suit my play style as much because it's it's there's some scenarios You'll just kind of be like, oh, well, okay. I guess I lose I I started playing the strong center play style with the new book because I used to just play Whole bunch of keeper secret Drown smash stuff. It was amazing, but the strong centers made me appreciate more of the I wouldn't What we cut what we have for synergy. I wouldn't say it's really synergy, but what we have for it and It it allows for a little more creativity in my list now now that I've come to appreciate what we have a bit more And I think the strong center does make the best use of gludos Right, like it it he is a hard piece to shift in that list like He'll he'll generally stick around and be An anchor for your army like again. He defies the normal slinnish logic of being very easy to lift So it's good Yeah, and and people will try to put so much into them with the two up save a five out fill no pain You're obviously putting mystic shield on them or all defense And people over commit trying to take them out and get nowhere and it's It works it works for your advantage to your advantage quite a bit Yeah, what you got to watch out for is the term where the mystic shield gets countered Right where maybe he's taken a few incidental wounds and and the priest is dulce or whatever Her name is is dead. And so he doesn't have his five upward anymore. And then some monster comes in and roars him Right, it's like oh boy Yeah, didn't see that happen before never not that that has happened at any point in time that we can think of no Never happened. All right The future what do we want to see for slinnish? Let's let's let's wishlist this out I couldn't let me just say this we couldn't get a new book soon enough Like I don't I'm sorry everybody else who's waiting on books. I'm sorry gets and corn and everybody I love you all but man give me a new slinnish book tomorrow built like the nergal book Like I don't I want that level of just middle the road fair army Yes, that's what I would like, please. I don't want the excess is the first one. I don't want this one I just want a fair army that's actually built to feel like slinnish Which in my mind slinnish has always been a speed kills glass cannon. That's the story of slinnish when you look at the narrative It's like lunatics on cherry. It's just rip roaring around the battlefield. It's like Like witness me You know like that's what it should feel like max conversions don't work unless they do this Yeah, exactly like that is the army. That's every story. They show up in there like that Right. Yeah But that's not how they play Um, but anyway, like I would like I would I don't know Maybe a pinky toe. I could probably live without a pinky toe for a new book sooner. It's fine I don't know if that's a trait anybody at gw's willing to make. I don't know what use they have for a pinky toe But if it'll help it's on the table um The like I you can walk without it. So it's cool. Um Okay, yes, it's jeness. It's sorry doc's getting the quick book. Yeah, they will they needed it Is there in such a bad rough spot? um Okay, what do we want to see? mars Your wish list. What would you love to see out of a future slanesh? Maybe this is a maybe this is a new book Maybe this is just a really great tome celestial boc style. What what do we got here? Either one of those i'll be happy with honestly just just something anything Please i'm in the desert. I'm holding out hope because we haven't got a tome celestial yet. I'm like, come on, baby Maybe now's our time Yeah, um I mean really it's The allegiance abilities for the triple tap is something that really still chaps me a bit Because I wanted the pain bringers. That's what made them really good beforehand. Sure It was just putting them up to 20 just blowing something up Uh, I really want that re looked at Uh depravity I like I like the way it works now. I really do just crank up the numbers for what we need to summon so we take the take the points down Because I I feel like hurting other people and getting hurt kind of fits within the slanesh thing I don't know how else did flavor it Um, or find a way to cap it each turn. I don't know something better than what we got sure but it's I get with uh The the whole idea of slanesh is kind of harder to do with the heroes doing damage kind of went out went a little crazy and Now this Um, yeah, let me I'm gonna I'm gonna pick up on what you're you said real quick Like one of the ways that I would love to see it go is you move the numbers on the table up slightly And you cap the depravity to being like Think like nergal or something like that like one per side or a few per side per round You know, I mean like like you just like if five units are wounded you get add to gravity If one unit's wounded you get add to gravity on each side, right? So for yours and theirs it's kind of be like at two max You're kind of getting there And that would like slow the generation way down and it would stop the the hard strat from being I want to pepper everything which accomplishes nothing And just be like well if I accidentally kill a few units, I'm not losing out on points Yeah, right like as long as I as long as somebody's been damaged on both sides Depravity is happening slanesh is happy right and and and yeah like that That would be it would control it. It would slow the table way way way down right Yeah, and uh And and then we could just wheel back from these these points while still keeping the same cool mechanism of like wounding units It would also limit the bookkeeping Because like I have to carry little tokens with me right like I use the war cry tokens as what I use You know little x's that say something's activated and I like okay as soon as somebody's wounded I'm like that's the depravity that's the depravity and I'm like doing all this bookkeeping every round I'm gonna be like, okay, and the bad end of the battle shot. Hold on. I got one two three four five You know, I'm gonna go around and tell like slanesh has always been this weird bookkeeping army Right. Well, which it doesn't need to be if you've slipped and agreed As one of the uh as one of the excesses, but you're like I want all of the tokens Yes Yes Uh new I want more mortals. I love mortals in slanesh. I want sure I'm the branch into all the vices. We got marshal perfection right now. Let's get into more gluttony next I want to see some those leather daddies you're talking about but with a big gut like me Oh, man, beautiful That'd be amazing. Oh, yeah get masks and dad bods Yeah Some leather straps dad bod. I'm in it. Are lines. Yes. Ah That's that's what I want I don't think I'm asking for too much better rules Dad bod models. That's it. No seems very fair. I like it Yeah, I mean, I do think there's definitely more that they could they could explore I don't mind by the way leaning into like I mean, I know this is supposed to be like an expansive game Slanesh is more than just the sort of sexuality of lust thing. Yeah, but like it's also that It can be that too Like we can have models that have some kind of sexuality to them That doesn't just mean like half naked ladies by the way that that that can cross the spectrum Um, kingdom death does a pretty good job with this having pin-ups of both varieties Like it's not better on my epitome was to male female pin-ups instead of the demonets Yeah, sure exactly right and so like, you know, I would love to see them lean into the the spread of excess Right, um, because yes, like glutos and the gluttony thing was cool I'd love to see a unit reinforce that that's kind of like that You know, you mentioned the the martial perfection and like sig vault And the pain bringers and stuff like that right people who are willing to give out or even the twin souls People who are sort of abandoning their souls into the excess of of being perfect fighters, right? But I'd love to see that concept explored more of of sort of the sins when taken to excess um Yeah, uh tom what what do you got? What are your thoughts besides reducing all the points in the army by 20%? Well, we're gonna reduce the army by 20% across the board. It would immediately fix most things Other light touches. I would do I would allow triple taps double triple taps to work with bow shots Yeah That would be uh, that would be huge for the army. It would open up an entirely new play style. That's not currently there Which is all the shooting um And then I would also do Uh, I would give twin souls the demon keyword I think that that would offer a really interesting alternative target for keeper of secrets For their Say what? Uh dex accessa the the melee lady. We didn't talk about her, but she's real bad You should really like she has a command thing which could help demons out. So that would be cool Right, that would be cool. And then as well the pilot for the keeper of secrets The keeper could target the twin souls either, right? Yeah, because it's a demon either um If they if they did that and like a unit of 10 of those bastards with free roll hits and double pylon would be Um would do work Something that this army just doesn't have as much of right now. Um And I think like that those two things with 20 reduction. I think would immediately put this book into the fat metal Okay overnight Yeah, so like might I mean like like a healthy fat metal like 50 to 55 Yeah, that's I don't know. I I think fundamentally I think their fundamentals are still too weak for that to be true But you're right. It would probably get them out of like the just bottom of the barrel Um, but anyways, who knows it's hard to ever test a counterfactual like that And by the way, you could errata basically all of that Sure, sure a lot of this might be those suggestions are something that could literally happen in the next global update If they wanted to a Keyword a keyword change And eroding those two abilities to all attacks instead of just melee to remove melee And add the keyword and I I think honestly, I think that it would It would go a long way Yeah, I'm I'm gonna go ground up because to me I just see the overwhelming bad design lack of synergy all these challenges in the book And I I want to I want to see a good book that actually feels like slanesh So here we go. Here's my list. You ready? Well, I'm gonna go through these rapidly um I've thought a lot about this Change number one locus gone that locus is stupid and should have never been written like that It's dumb gamey crap and I hate it. It's out of here new locus All right, it's called the locus of like excess speed or something like that All right, and what it does is very simple Solarity I'm yeah, great sounds good to me tom. I love it. Let's go with that good word good use of a five dollar word there I enjoy that okay, what it does is uh For other demons wholly within 12 inches okay, uh 3d6 charge There we go. I already love it. Okay. It's that simple You're trying to cross the red zone? Yeah, it's only the the the locuses are always only affect demons when they when they buff other things We have to stay in line there, right? Um, so that would be great that'd be neat um So yes, all all your your all your demon stuff can charge three six inches Um, if you want to get we we could go farther like it could be plus one to run And plus three and and they have a three six inch charge something like that Or they could roll re-roll runs. I don't care like there's lots of different ways You could make that represent speed that wouldn't be game breaking, you know I mean it doesn't need to be like 3d6 charge and plus three to charge and double your move speed like we don't need to get stupid You know i'm saying like it can you can you can keep this contained. You can just make it re-roll run rolls Yeah, fine. You're cool. It's perfectly needability, right? yeah, and Uh that one guy nobody likes I disagree slanesh does need to be stupid fast It needs to be stupid fast thing That's that's their thing because none of nobody flies like in my mind slanesh has two things Strike fast strike hard No mercy, baby. That's that's slanesh like it's what it is Like welcome to welcome to cobra kai. This is the dojo Okay And uh, and yes, I know I did slightly butcher that. Thank you. Um But the the I like just giving them that kind of thing would also Uh It would really help them like just get into the red zone get into combat where they want to be with a lot of units That want to be in melee, right? By the way, a lot of the units that don't necessarily want to be are Mortal shooting units, so it's fine. They're not like the losers here would be obviously twin souls or something like that Okay, number one number two the depravity fix. I just mentioned we're fixing that Summoning is now crap and you get like one unit a game fantastic. All right. Love it. Excellent. Now it's fixed Next bring the points back down out of the stratosphere. Okay, fine. We did that next Let's actually make the keeper of secrets a melee threat. Okay. How about we do that? Let's just get let's just get nuts Yes, let's get crazy. All right. I know she has two claws And so somebody looked at that and went oh, so she makes two attacks Last time I checked the giant has one club and yet makes 10 or the one flail and he's making 10 attacks So, you know, we can get wacky with the numbers here How many how many stomps does the ballcrasher have with his fists? Yeah, exactly. Yeah A lot more than he has fists Okay So the Oh, that is a good point though that one guy nobody likes locus does work on all the units. Hmm And I forgot that in nergal it does work on all the units All right, cool. We'll make everybody charge 3d6. Thank you that one guy. You're absolutely right big wall We'll love it. Sig vaults in for 3d6 charges. I accept Yeah, now now we get some real attacks out of him. Now. I like where we're doing here Uh, look He's he is the best. So there we go. Um, we're going to take the keeper secrets We're going to give her a real number of attacks. I don't care how you Max this around her command ability gone strike it from the scroll. It's eliminated. It doesn't exist anymore We don't need double pylon stuff. We don't need fight off face stuff. I don't like it I do. I wish it wouldn't exist. I know it's still around and I know it's still kind of around um, but It it doesn't need to be there and it conflicts in a bad way So just kill it. Just get rid of this crap command ability. It was never part of slanesh It doesn't need to be there, but the keeper's average damage Okay, when we compare her average damage against a four up save should be something like 15 to 16 damage That's how hard she should hit You're saying based on what other things that are comfortable in the meta are heading for Correct. Yes. Most of those other things by the way fly So can we talk about should the meta be hitting that hard? Sure for these kinds of 400 to 500 point greater demons and big heroes. Yes Right. I mean my like I think that I would want a deeper question of like is is the Is there too much speed? Is there too much damage right now floating around? Well, and also that's still putting her at the low end of these units like again She's not near the upper level stormcast units or oric units who all do way more damage than her still Okay for the same points cost and she's not flying so I can chaff her out, right? uh and so I don't know why it would be quiet The end. I'm sorry. Um, I I can try. Um I think she her uh dark temptations ability Should actually be a tough decision. Not not d3 mortal wounds. Everybody's taking that Everybody's losing their hero So, yeah, so her damage goes Way up like up. It's good. That's that by the way real numbers That's like, I don't care how you spread her attacks or what they do average damage is 15 to 16 against a four up save That would be a real doubling on her current damage Make her worth four to 500 points for a by the way, I didn't say improve her defenses No, not part of the not part of what I'm doing here. She's still 14 wounds on a four up save That's it right Not like that's already still weak in the current meta of just shooting that can be That would just kill her instantly But at least I would feel like if I got her and she'd do something Okay uh Damonettes look, I know it's an annoying ability and I normally hate it, but I'm gonna be straight with you here I just want I want the 40k rule Okay Sixes double tap sixes to wound go to neg for a rend Something like that Or just give them if we don't like having a separate rend fine make it do mortals I don't care or neg three rend or whatever We seem to be pretty rend happy in the new edition. Let's ride that train Okay Uh, yes, it sucks because then you have to separate your wounds into two piles and be like, okay These wounds are at neg one and these wounds are at neg something else and yes I hate that But I like a high rend better than I like mortal wounds because then some like there are plenty of units Especially in the save stacking world right now that will still have a save against a neg for a rend Yeah All right, and I like that better than mortal wounds, but whatever so it's worth the cost for me here, right? Um three can some of the heroes actually have real synergies That'd be my next one like the lord of pain has a command phase or combat phase command ability to give people reroll hits Super not like great. Not only is it competing with all out attack and all out defense But the main thing he often wants to buff with that which is twin souls already do that Two or three rounds of the games Okay, can we just have like real synergies that's all i'm asking for just like a few buffs I don't need them to be crazy. Just a few buffs a few power pairs where you're like Oh, I would like to take this unit because I took that unit. That's all I don't want seraphon Don't want it Okay I just want something to feel like yeah, this works with that There we go speed kills I would also up the rend across some of like the characters and some of the bigger units That need to push into like neg two rend. It's it's Endlessly hilarious to me that throughout slanesh's entire existence They've been one of the lower Rend armies because almost everybody's neg one, but almost everybody's neg one Yeah That's it Which like neg one might as well be not anything for the most part In the current world So like maybe the army based on giant crab claws that in every story are like Snick or snack vorpal sorting through people and slicing heads off Uh, maybe that could actually have some amount of rend to it. That'd be neat It'd be super cool. Yeah. Oh, that'd be so it'd make my models of them impaling storm cast actually realistic Yeah, so there we go. That's my take for the future. All right Gentlemen, I think we've done it. We've covered slanesh I hope we gave some people some ideas for path to victor for paths to victory talked about some good units And I hope people I hope to see the the win rate. I hope some people do try taking them out I'd love to see them show up at some more tournaments even though it is rough right now It can be a fun challenge Especially if you like a good finesse army if you're in for a very like johnny sort of challenge I think they can be really good Um You like as a as a as a good psychological experience for you to play with um Yeah And even worst case you don't do good. You go get drinks for you and your partner Just have a good chat in the end either way It's a good time. Absolutely. They're fun to play Oh, it's such that's so fun to play at a tournament I will say like we've said it a bunch of times, but there is a tremendous joy in like When you fight with sig vault and get a good thing in or like when you roll the twin souls into A unit that can't all out defense because they've already spent it somewhere else You have some like siggies over here fighting something and they need to aod on him and then the twin souls come in and it's just like Chomp chomp chomp like it can be great when when when when it aligns like you feel pretty good So there's stuff. All right Mars Buddy Great stuff, man. Thank you for coming on and talking about slanash. Really appreciated it Thanks for having me. It's been a blast Absolutely Hey, if you're still watching first of all, thank you. Second of all, don't forget to hit like Subscribe do all those fun things Third of all, don't forget about the announcements we made at the beginning of the show new merch in the merch store And the patreon is now live So there that's all there and um I hope can't wait to see everybody at depth con. Don't forget the countdown is on folks 20 days can't wait to see everybody in person Uh, it's going to be a very very great time Uh, but for all of you who are still watching, thank you so much. We really appreciate it Uh, I hope everybody has some fun getting depraved Uh with slanash or not and uh as always We'll see you next wednesday