 Welcome to NewsClick. As part of Dr. Ambedkar's 126th Birth Anniversary series, we have with us Dr. Shailaja Paik, Faculty of History, University of Cincinnati, with us to talk to us about Dr. Ambedkar's ideas for the human society and the Indian society at large. Welcome to NewsClick, Dr. Shailaja. Thank you. Dr. Ambedkar's educational journey has been phenomenal and his thrust on education for the liberation of the Indian masses. Could you throw some light on his journey to the U.S. and abroad for his education, pursuing his education and as education as an instrument for the liberation of the Indian masses? Yes. So as we all know, Ambedkar was an absolutely eminent leader who came from a Dalit background and that is the reason he had to face certain social obstructions and this happened when he was schooling in the Bombay Presidency in the colonial times and still he was pursuing his education. He wanted to learn, for example, the Sanskrit language. He was also facing a lot of social discrimination when he tried to do this. So for example, he had to bring his own mat to the classroom or he had to sit at the end of the classroom. So while facing all these difficulties, we see what this man is trying to achieve and pursue his aims and objectives. When he's doing this, we have a regional prince, Maharaja Gayakwar of Baroda, who finances Ambedkar's studies and he is financing other non-Brahman and Dalit students also and he helps Ambedkar to attend Columbia University from where Ambedkar attained his PhD. He went to LSE in England and that is how he tried to achieve to attain the highest levels as a person coming from a particularly depressed class and to seek the highest level of education. So while doing this, we see that he is actually challenging and breaking the law codes of, for example, Manu, the most widely quoted figure. So if, for example, they happen to listen to the so-called religious scriptures like the Vedas or others, molten lead was to be poured into the years and so on. So this is why we need to understand what Ambedkar was trying to do. So his educational philosophy is very much grounded in his social background, in his political, cultural, ideological and intellectual aims and ambitions. So what Ambedkar is saying is that there are two levels. He wants Dalits to first just enter schools and that is the first stage because historically speaking, we have certain marginalized communities not allowed to access education. So that access initial was very, very important. And the second stage that Ambedkar points out is that Dalit students should also get education at par with upper cost students. He wants Dalits to be respected and he wants them to enjoy egalitarian citizenship in modern India. In that endeavor, Dr. Ambedkar had established the People's Education Society and in fact urged the then government to send Dalit students abroad for their education so that they would return and work for the community and the society. But he was disappointed in one of his speeches. He says that he was disappointed with the educated Dalits. Do you have to say something on this? Yes, absolutely. So we see that Ambedkar strived for his entire life to fight for different rights, educational and civic rights of the Dalits. And he was very instrumental in sending some Dalits abroad so that they could seek higher education and then return to the community and help the community in its advancement and improvement and so on. However, he mentions that he was not very happy with these so-called educated Dalits because they were trying to move away from the community. So he does express that. However, it is difficult to generalize because there were many committed Dalit activists, educated activists who were engaging with the community and who were working with Ambedkar. Dr. Ambedkar also was a firm believer in the constitutional methods for the emancipation of the depressed classes. And for that matter, he worked tirelessly for the emancipation of the Dalits, women in general and the working class. Could you share your views on this? Absolutely. I think both Ambedkar and when we look at the non-Brahman leader from Western India, Jyothira Phule, both of them worked from within the state. So they used constitutional measures to work for the emancipation and the uplift of the lower castes and Dalits in specific. And here I just want to very quickly point out, even when Ambedkar is talking about education, he, yes, he is spending a lot of time on Dalit education but his idea and goal of education is for all Indians that would include Dalits as well as non-Dalits. So we need to pay attention to that. And so when he is talking about constitutional means, here also we see that he is trying to work within the framework of the state, trying to seek as much as benefits that he can from both the colonial government and the post-colonial Indian government. And he is doing this on a number of levels. So for example, he enters the Bombay Legislative Council where he is able to pass or just propose certain bills and get them enacted. For example, the bill for compulsory primary education. Or when he is elected as the law minister, when he is in the parliament, he is fighting for women's rights, which is not just Dalit women's rights to, for example, maternity leave or divorce or so on, but for all women. Similarly, also his contribution for the workers, 8 hours workers rights. I would like to speak more about what he did, for example, with the Hindu Code bill. I mean, there were some measures that, you know, there were some leaders who were proposing these reforms. However, it was Ambedkar who was instrumental in debating and discussing about these ideas. He about talking about, you know, as you pointed out, you know, the hours of work about trade unions and, you know, the kind of work that people could do. So he was very keen on working for the rights of the lower class. Dr. Ambedkar said that if you educate a woman, you are educating the whole family. And he said that the measurement that according to him, he measures the progress of a society based on the progress made by women in the society. So could you throw some lights on Dalit women that you have been studying, Dalit women? How have Dalit women taken Dr. Ambedkar's expectations and how did they achieve those goals? Actually, you know, just being a historian, just quickly going back because Ambedkar is also drawing upon some something. So this is the British official and, you know, he is the writer of many, many books who initiates this conversation as looking to the status of women as the measure of civilization. This is James Mill, who starts this conversation actually. And many leaders, including Ambedkar, are drawing upon it. And that is where we see that Ambedkar is also, you know, looking at women and saying that, and this is a larger conversation. Ambedkar is a part of it, where he says that, you know, it is women who are, you know, who are going to be more responsible for the emancipation of the Dalits and women who would actually be more instrumental in the removal of untouchability. So he is in, you know, with this stone, he is actually making women, he is, you know, more powerful. He is giving them that agency. However, I really want to stress here that, you know, if people are trying to say that this is exactly what upper caste reformers, leaders were trying to do, this is, the Dalit struggle is different. It departs from this upper caste notion of women being framed in a particular way. Dalits departs from it because Dalits are also fighting for their dignity as human beings. So the role of women is very, very important because it is the Dalit woman who is facing double oppression as belonging to a particular caste and belonging to a particular gender. So what Ambedkar is trying to do is basically trying to really empower this Dalit woman to not only challenge oblique patriarchy but private patriarchy that this woman faces inside the home. So for example, private patriarchy, let's begin with that. He talks about as to how Dalit women should not cooperate with Dalit men if the men, for example, are drinking alcohol or if they are not going to follow the dictates of the community, whatever the community has decided at a particular political and historical moment. So that is how he is making them very powerful inside the home. Both Dalit and non Dalit men should pay attention to this. And in the public, by bringing out women outside for conferences, by involving them in both direct and indirect action for the community, we clearly see that Ambedkar is trying to work upon these capacities of women. It's not just him, I mean of course women are choosing to do this. So it's not that they are blindly following. Ambedkar has some scholars are trying to portray. We clearly see that for example, Dalit women prefer to choose critically Ambedkar and their involvement in Dalit movement rather than go with Gandhi. Over the years, there have been critiques from the Dalit feminists that enough attention had been not paid for grooming the Dalit women leaders. So in this contemporary times, do you want to say something? And how it differed? Did Dr. Ambedkar consciously groom the Dalit women leaders or it was just by default that they happen to be there? I wouldn't say that it was by default. He was making a conscious effort to involve Dalit women in the conferences, in the different parishes that he organized. And we see that there was, like for example, this is Shanta Bai Dhani. I can speak to examples from Maharashtra. In Maharashtra, we see that there are some women leaders coming from Dalit backgrounds that emerge both in colonial as well as in post-colonial India. And he is very attentive to these. He wants these women to give speeches. He wants them to engage in different activities. So Shanta Bai Dhani was very active in the Nasik temple Satyagraha, for example. And she was also the leader of the Shadyur Kast Federation. So these were very important political moments and she was the woman president at some point of time. So we clearly see that this was happening. There are also some limitations, there are contradictions, but yes, we do see these leaders emerging. So Dr. Ambedkar thoroughly, because of his politics and the situation then, he believed in the constitutional measures, but he also was very critical that his hands were tied when he was drafting the constitution. I want to quote Dr. Ambedkar in his last speech to the Constituent Assembly. He says, I feel, however, a good constitution may be. It is sure to turn out to be bad because those who call to work, it happened to be a bad lot. And the current regime, which is in the business of appropriating Ambedkar, is trying to play havoc with the constitution and the secular fabric and the democratic nature of our constitution and its polity. Could you share your thoughts on that? Yes, certainly because we see as to how the current regime and its various agents are appropriating Ambedkar. But the problem is, they are doing this very selectively using only some speeches or just some fragments of sentences here and there to show as to how they are sympathetic to causes of certain people. However, I would suggest that if they actually read, as you quoted what Ambedkar has written about constitution making and constitution execution, they would do a better job. That's it for the series. Thank you, Dr. Shailaja. We'll get back to you on some other issues. Thank you for watching NewsClick.