 I have the right to remain silent you told me I had the right to remain silent Do you just you just don't want to tell me your side of the story? I'm just I'm just Like you I'm like this fella that was a detective here Today we're gonna talk about Grant Harden. He was a police chief and he got in some trouble for some stuff Greg or don't you tell us about the videos we're gonna watch So I'm gonna tell you what the Arkansas Democrat Gazette says about him He is guilty plea in 2017 to this murder case they're talking to him about led to him being charged in a 20 year old rape case He'd worked for four police agencies. He was fired from one allowed to resign from one rather than be fired and resigned from two He climbed higher ground on each of those that he was always in the right He was working at the time for northwest Arkansas community correction center a women's prison at the time he was arrested for this murder He pleaded he pleaded guilty to this murder without explaining why and was later Directed and given 30 years for this first-degree murder and 25 years for each of two rape charges. That's what you need to know What happens or what's going on? Okay, but I just have to invoke my All right Okay So you're telling me that you don't you don't want to give me your side of the story That's what you're telling me that I've got a I've got to I've got to put together what your wife has told me what the crime scene told me. I mean what I'm saying is I have the right to remain silent That's true. You do. I'm not saying I don't want to tell you anything or anything or help you guys or anything I'm just saying right. I You told me I had the right to remain silent. That's true. I did Just because I told you you had a right to remain silent doesn't mean you have to remain silent I know but I'll let you see you. No, but you don't have to apologize to you. No, I do. You don't need to I know you don't. I uh, well I just want to remain silent Okay, and that and I'm telling you that's your right, but at the same time if I don't If you don't walk me through What happened and why it happened Then there's no way for me to get It's like this. It's like this You're writing a book, right? We're writing a book You got chapter one you got chapter two and chapter three chapter one is What happened today? What started out today? How your day started? Chapter two is what led up to the incident and chapter three is you telling me about What happened to lead you up to that because I don't have any of that information I know you went to eat, uh, you know out tonight I know what you said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know I know everything But I don't know what caused the incident I don't know And if I don't know that I gotta assume the worst And I don't want to assume the worst I don't That's not my job. That wasn't your job, right? That wasn't your job to assume the worst your job was to go do a job Collect facts. I mean, you know what police officer does. You know what detective does. You've been mad I need this whole piece So I can collect it all Because if I only got bits and pieces It makes you look really really bad Really bad. I don't want to do that. I don't I don't want I don't want you to look bad and I don't know if you think Trying to trick you or do whatever But if I don't collect all the the pieces that I need I can't get your side of the story and that's the issue that I have and I don't know what I don't know what's holding you up. I don't know what's holding you up from telling me your side of the story Do you just you just don't want to tell me your side of the story? I'm just I'm just signaled No, I get that I understand that like that part you've made completely clear You've told me several times. I just I just don't want to remain that way. Okay All right, I'll go first on this one Um body language of the person who thinks they're Not showing you body language. That's what we're seeing here They this guy thinks he's smart and he thinks by sitting there like a little statue with his hands on his legs Sitting real still his feet apart flat on the floor. He thinks that's telling them everything they need to know And it is it's saying I'm watching every move I make because he's a police chief And he understands how important body language is a normal verbal communication And an interrogation That's what that is. That's why it looks so weird. That's why it looks so odd He's unnatural looking he looks stiff and it's so obvious to what as to what's happening It's almost ridiculous. It looks it looks so goofy Now when he starts talking he's his voice is really soft and it's and this is all intentional It's really soft. He's not lilting, but he's he's speaking Intentionally everything he's talking about the way he presents it. Everything is intentional here. His cadence is slow His tone and volume and volume are light Everything's just just rolling right along. He's not loping. He's watching everything he says He's on he's put himself on notice for everything happening And what we'll see as we go through this how this Intention of sitting real still with your legs apart and your your hands on your knees How goofy that looks and how he's trying to focus on on looking innocent Why that why that doesn't work because we're going to see that slowly fall apart Then he gets it back together and he slowly falls apart and he gets back together The detective explaining things to him Has taken that that approach of i'm trying to help you I'm trying to help you with this and it's not working because he keeps saying I don't want to talk anymore. Oh, I have the right to to be quiet in other words So he seems that that puts the Detective in this frustration situation Which is a big mistake because it comes on like I want to help you. I'm trying to do this He comes on strong with him and that that doesn't work at all here um And then he starts to to to back off a little bit and starts to try to look relaxed because he starts with Legs crossed and he's all you know, hey, you know trying to talk to me. It's just not working at all um He's trying to do what we see the next detective do so skillfully So so wonderfully well, and it's just not working for him. You can't quite get it going Um mark. What do you got? When you've got a youtube show you kind of get used to people knowing information about you In fact, if I google my own name lots of information comes up about me But that's information that I'd like you to see also information might come up that I don't want you to see And so that's what I want to talk to you about and our sponsor aura You see data brokers are really happy to sell your private information To robo callers to spammers and all kinds of other people who will steal or hijack Your identity in some way aura can identify data brokers exposing your info And submit opt out requests on your behalf now brokers are legally required to remove your info if you ask them to But they make it incredibly hard for you to do that So here's the key you can let aura handle it for you and you can try aura free by using our special behavior panel link But aura also does so much more than protecting you from the online threats that you can't see It's really easy to set up so you don't have to download several different apps to get things like parental controls Antivirus VPN password management identity theft insurance and more you get everything at one affordable price So let aura handle all of your online security for you and your family So you can get on with the things that you enjoy with a lot of peace of mind Here's an opportunity to stop people profiting from your private information Go to aura.com forward slash TBp to start your two week free trial Also in the link below click on it. Go take a look Yeah, so we've got another detective coming up just to let you know and what's happening here both of these people Whatever they're doing. It isn't quite working for them. He's adopted What I think he thinks is his resistance to interrogation and questioning pose It works until it doesn't work You know and the thing is it's such a still Frame that most everything that he does outside of that will show up. He might be better just to be more More dexterous and bigger with his gestures all the time and just do stuff all the time to to protect himself. It's not working Look the the the only nice thing I think this interviewer does is to say is to use the simile of a book For him to say look, it's it's like you've written chapter one and two and three And it's the idea that he might then complete the book and put himself in the place of the writer It's nice, but it doesn't work But I mean I'm just trying to throw out a bone here to go to go look I quite I quite enjoyed That and ultimately what happens here is the interviewer does a lot of work A lot of talking and the subject does almost absolutely nothing until in the end He does this very subtle suppression gesture on his knees His hands just come up and the and the hands come down as suppression And then he withdraws his fingers very clear to see because he's been doing nothing else The rest of the time and he says I'm just silent. I'm just silent and that and that's pretty much I think all this guy is going to get unless it's a setup that I just haven't Worked out. He's about to hand it over to somebody else, uh, which I'll do Greg what have you got on this one? Yeah, so let's talk about that handoff Look, I have done a hell of a lot of interrogations in my life and often I pick somebody exactly like the next detective to come in And I go in headstrong intentionally because I look like I'm the guy who's going to be exactly that Headstrong and tough and then what I do is I hand that off to a person who is much more subtle in their approach And that could or could not be what's going on here. We'll talk to these folks Eventually and find out exactly what they were thinking. Did he just go in and try or did he go in and set up the next play? If they set it up, this is this is an astounding and beautiful thing The way interrogation works good interrogation. Now, let's not talk about read or any of that Let's just talk about interrogation at the top and then we'll talk about read as we go through But the way interrogation works is there is a first step that you must do before you can get to the interrogation piece When we talk about approaches or ploys or themes Whatever your particular choice of interrogation method looks like Those things can only happen after you've established rapport and in my world what I call rapport When we come in in the interrogation phase We would say it's established control and that is sit down in the chair right there Put both your hands on your legs and don't make any sudden moves is the way we approach it in the intelligence world Or with terrorists and we say and the reason is because those guys don't speak the same language you do and it's dangerous That's established control and then you have to establish rapport after id We make sure we have the right person They know they have the right person and then we establish rapport before we try any approaches We just get in there and say boom boom boom here. So it's going to work And the way I talk about rapport is it's a way of exchanging information It's a framework for exchanging information. It can be a posture that is stern A hard nose or it can be sympathetic a softer person. Those two ways are how you look at establishing rapport Once that starts we go into the psychological approach phase or the what Read would call the theme phase where we're talking to them trying to give them reasons for talking or just getting them to talk And after that once we get them to break Then we start to try to pull information if you go too quick for the information You fail if you go too slowly for the information you fail It's an art form and a good interrogator knows when we're going to see a lot of that as we go through this And those of you who always ask about interrogation. This is it This is one for you to really pay attention to because it's complex Whether sharp whether it's read. It's non-chorus and we're going to see where it goes And mark. I love the fact you said resistance to interrogation There's a reason that every military on earth has a resistance to interrogation course And it's because if I ask each of you to come up with your own way It's going to be messy sloppy and probably amateur at best But if we teach you the mechanics of what it takes then you can take those things and bolt them together and create a good Resistance posture. He has created a messy one. He thinks sitting there rigidly with his hands on his legs and looking like this will work He also has one thing in common within With an interrogator going through sear. He knows what's coming And so if you know what it is you recognize it You're going to try to avoid it at every turn. You're waiting for the right opportunities. This is a really good battle And we're going to see this first guy. I think maybe a setup if he isn't He went in and tried too hard to bash and then he gets turned aside and we hand it off to somebody chase. What do you got? Yeah, y'all covered quite a bit here Throughout this video, we're going to be using the words interview and interrogation or I will be pretty much interchangeably the whole time just because it's One of the same now just about but one goal of interrogators is to continually talk about And reiterate the importance of people knowing all other people knowing why this happened Not not if but why it happened And just to talk about the suspect side of the story And there's five reasons that this is important But one main one Is that you want to increase the level of worry and anxiety about what all the evidence is going to say and what people are saying But on the other hand, you also want to start to be The only pathway that they have to be able to say that they're a good person Amidst all these incoming accusations and stuff and that is what you're seeing here There's one behavior that has been well documented In research that I want you to pay attention to here in this clip This is the stop gesture when the fingers extend all the way when you want something to stop That's in front of you and you'll see this at the very end of this clip And it's followed by another behavior that is on the behavioral table of elements And it is a full retraction of the fingers. This is called digital flexion. This is a sign Something in this moment has caused a person not only to be physically less open About what's going on, but you're seeing on their body. What's going on in their mind His hands come all the way into these fists on his leg So the officer's probably not trained in this as Probably less than 1% of police officers are but he knows there's some kind of resistance here simply from all of the verbal Stuff that's going on and we'll see a change up coming here in a second What's going on, okay, but I just have to invoke my All right okay So you're telling me that you don't you don't want to give me your side of the story That's what you're telling me that I've got a I've got a I've got to put together what your wife has told me what the crossing told me. I mean what I'm saying is I have the right to remain silent That's true. You do I'm not saying I don't want to tell you anything or anything or help you guys or anything I'm just saying right. I You told me I had the right to remain silent. That's true. I did Just because I told you you had a right to remain silent doesn't mean you have to remain silent I know but Apologies to you. No, but you don't You know, I do don't need to I know you don't I will I just want to write to remain silent Okay, and that and I'm telling you that's your right, but at the same time if I don't If you don't walk me through What happened and why it happened? Then there's no way for me to get it. It's like this. It's like this You're writing a book, right? We're writing a book You got chapter one You got chapter two and chapter three chapter one Is what happened today? What started out today? How your day started? Chapter two is what led up to the incident and chapter three is you telling me about What happened to lead you up to that because I don't have any of that information I know you went to eat. Uh, you know out tonight I know what you said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know everything But I don't know what caused the incident I don't know And if I don't know that I gotta assume the worst And I don't want to assume the worst I don't That's not my job. That wasn't your job, right That wasn't your job to assume the worst. Your job was to go do a job Collect facts. I mean, you know what police officer does. You know what detective does. You've been mad I need this whole piece So I can collect it all Because if I only got bits and pieces It makes you look really really bad Really bad. I don't want to do that. I don't I don't want I don't want you to look bad and I don't know if you think Trying to to trick you or do whatever But if I don't collect all the the pieces that I need I can't get your side of the story and that's the issue that I have and I don't know what I don't know what's holding you up I don't know what's holding you up from telling me your side of the story Do you just you just don't want to tell me your side of the story? I'm just I'm just signaled I know I get that I understand that like that part you've made completely clear You've told me several times. I just I just don't want to remain that way. Okay All right It ain't like Just think about laying down up on that This looks awful hard. Yeah, I don't know if you're getting more comfortable up there than you are now I get anything else. Well, that's good. Thank you. All right Well, can you help me understand how I got to this point? I don't know You don't know Man, I remember being on patrol and running into you one night. It's helped me out on a call back in Vienna And way back in uh, oh gosh, it's been all mixed. I guess almost three years now Well, two, two years Yeah, it's like that But it's you guys are always good to help us help help me too. Yeah, that's a brand you always stick right there, man Oh, absolutely. I worked on his shit. So, you know, he he always had my back But I just don't understand how we got to this point And I mean either Yeah, well, I'm here to listen You're on top. Oh, I'm just afraid to go to bed I don't blame you. I don't blame you. Me too Me too No, we could do that. You just talked to me Well, I just have to Since you've read those rights, I have to stay. I have to Do the right. Well, what's the difference? Feel the difference. No, what's the difference between knowing what the paper says and Telling, you know, especially the clues clues you had and everything. I mean, yeah All right, mark. What do you got? Yeah, so lovely little bit in the edit there are seeing all that movement when there's nobody in the room Tells you something, you know, maybe you'd consider that the no one's watching me baseline Uh, and you see there's a there's a lot of movement in there But I suspect as he hears somebody approaching or hears the door Then we see him shuffle those feet and put himself into that You know, shall we say resistance to interrogation? position that he's decided on Now what is interesting is her demeanor. I'm sure everybody else will talk about what that demeanor is and why But her demeanor very quickly gets him to shuffle his feet forward His feet do the approach response really quite quickly. So that triggers in me Okay, whatever she's doing and I guarantee everybody else will go into what she's doing But whatever it is she is doing is having a very quick and big effect on his resistance to interrogation position, so he's susceptible to being influenced and led by her um, look his approach is uh, sorry the the um The interrogators approach here is like, how did we get to this point? It's a very open question there really nice start And the logic that she's putting there as well is if you've done nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to fear Of course, that isn't exactly logical, uh, but you know, it's a nice kind of pseudo logic that could get people um To talk a little bit more if they've probably done nothing wrong But if they he has got something to fear and so he's unlikely to say anything unless She can open him up. Let's see How she goes with that chase. What do you got on this one? Yeah, I I don't know if this is on purpose But I know a lot of professional interviewers who do this but take a look at their clothing the police chief Guy shows up in this semi floral colorful shirt in the black pants Interiator shows up in almost the exact same thing And this is a great start either way because she is matching his appearance And this makes all of us subconsciously more likely to trust somebody So the female detective here is doing an incredible job so far. She's come into the room. She's more comfortable than he is Which is a big deal She's subordinating herself to him, which is Her probably taking a good read on him She's specifically bringing up topics where he helped her to make Uh Stuff happen and getting those memories to start coming back and this is called giving somebody a reputation that they can live up to He's helpful. He's a mentor. He's mature And notice that she's also taken a spot in the room that was not where the other interrogator was sitting She might have done this unconsciously But by doing this she's ensuring there's minimal association to that previous officer who was in the room And this new position is also more open and exposed Than where the other officer was sitting and one behavior that you're going to see here is that his feet Draw backward a little bit and this is sometimes a good sign But they but they've drawn backward into the same position where he would place them to stand up and leave And one thing that mark taught me Many years ago. I think we're having a glass of wine or something at a restaurant during this But his hands on his knees and where his feet are This is also the position that you would see someone in the moment They're pushing themselves up to stand up and leave the room So the easier it is from whatever position they're in to leave to stand up and leave the less Uh comfortable they are and I learned that from mar and uh I'd like to pass this on to scott because scott you always talk about this guy Who's a confident sitter? I don't remember what his name is. Yes, but does he sit in a way that makes it hard to stand up? I'll pass it to you Yeah, that's nape bar gatsy. He is or bar gatsy as he says It's he's he's the most confident sitter there is because when he sits down This cat is totally relaxed and he looks like he owns the world and you just happen to be there And he's talking to you but he's letting you own the world with him I don't know how to explain it, but if you ever see nape bar get see he was just on saturday night live Watch him sit when he's on One of the talk shows. It's great. It's fantastic. And this guy Is not sitting that way at all. He's like the total opposite of you know, like I was talking about we've all talked about so far But when she when when she comes in he tries to like chase was saying tries to ingratiate himself with her But she outdoes him and she she puts herself at a lower status. I'm gonna have to say status mark. Sorry american and uh And and it it's at the at the beginning. It seems like What is she what is she talking about, you know, what it seems like she's giving the feel She's just hanging around like she's just in there happens to be there has some free time It's coming to talk to him and it's such a beautiful approach and she executes it Perfectly just beautifully bring brings that in there and sits down starts talking And she brings up the part about where he helped her out as when when she was a cop early on And she remembers that and he remembers that too And he he starts romancing her and not like hey, baby What's happening? But in the true crime workshop, of course that Greg and I have We have one of the things that that people will do when they're talking either to a police officer or an interrogator An interviewer is the romancer where they they just look you straight in the eye They start talking really nice and they don't let up and everything's great. So he's using Uh, it's not full romancer, but he's in there trying to do that trying to be nice to her And trying to get her to like him because he opened as it opens when she comes in the opening of that is He's being very nice very polite And she's being very nice very polite too and it starts this game Of of him like I know what's going on and she's like I know what's going on too But they never discuss it, you know, it's like the I hate to say elephant the room But it's this huge herd of elephants in the room because that's the only thing in the room Is those two and this big herd of elephants? And nobody addresses either Either neither one of them address what's actually happening, but she she starts with that Shucks approach and and she just happens to be there and oh my god Her voice is really soft and it's it's almost reminiscent of a daughter of like you like his daughter That's the approach. I think she's taken like you could take care of me You know, I'm a woman and you're a big strong man and you could take care of me And he just falls right into it And but at the same time she she's pretending like she really cares what's happening there You know, it's it's I'm gonna quit saying how well a great job She does because I'll keep saying that but she does such a great job And I think by reminding him that she that he helped her before That puts him in the mindset. I'm gonna help you again. You need some help I want to help you because she keeps saying that help me out and I'm here to help you We'll see that in a little while um Let's see at her at at the beginning her body language seems like if you look at it from a distance and he weren't um If you're not a panelist let's say it's your first time watching our show you'll see that and go Oh, she's closed off because her arms are crossed and her legs are crossed not at all Everything else about her says she's engaging. She's just she's just relaxed and talking to him So there are no absolutes. We talk about that all the time on here This is your first time if you haven't if you're not a subscriber Go ahead and subscribe and you you'll learn these things we're talking about. I think that'll it'll help you so much Because when someone has their arms crossed it doesn't mean they're turned off to you Most of the time means it's cold or they're more comfortable that way Doesn't mean somebody's lying to you when they touch their mouth. I'm touching mine all the time all the comments are like Quit putting your hand in front of your mouth. I can't you know, what does that mean? Are you sure it's because I have a habit of doing that and do it all the time So if you're not a panelist go ahead and subscribe and you'll learn uh, most of the things we're talking about here But she seems closed off, but she's not she's she's completely in control of what she's doing and her execution of it um And at this while she's doing that he's still trying to look cool and trying to look nice and and be helpful but he's still on Notice that he's in he's in trouble. He knows what it's for his pretend He doesn't know anything that that's happening there. Greg. What do you got? So let me run down a list of things the first one is if you have never been an interrogation room You can't feel what's going on here. But if you have you certainly feel what's going on here Every one person who has ever done an interrogation can feel the tension between the two people It's a control issue and when you're sitting there It is one of the things that lets you know That the person is on to what you're doing and this guy's on to it And so you're doing this dance where you're talking to him and he's talking to you And neither one of you's saying what you mean That's your point Scott about the elephant in the room as you referred to it The job of an interrogator is a simple one Our job is to put something in your head lock you in a cell with yourself And I mean that inside your head you could be sitting in broad open daylight But you're going to be dealing with whatever the issue with is internal to your head and make you go to war with yourself Until i'm the only person who can open the door and let you out That's what an interrogator a good one does and it's about brokering anxiety and getting the person to a point Where there's no other way out except for me letting you out What I love is you guys are using the word approach What I also love is you're using approaches. You don't know the names of but there's a system That works that we can teach people how to do this It's a reason interrogation is a a science and art form or whatever you want to call it The army lists 14 that are acceptable That is the dod standard today because of obu gray and those 14 You just danced around a few of them are pride and you go up is one of them You hear me talk about it all the time. She's stroking his ego as a father figure And she is doing a whole lot of other things in there as well. She strokes his ego when chase. I forget what you said She's giving him a reputation live up to this pride and ego up that's saying. Hey boom. Here you are There's a ton of others. We're going to bring up. She's also using some Elicitation she's doing naivete that I own just a girl. I'm just kid She's doing that and it's letting him feel like he can talk to her She's also praying on love of comrades. I'm a cop. You're a cop And so no one of these single ploys works by itself and it's a constant game When I taught interrogation I would have all of my students create an interrogation plan It would say I'm going to try this approach this approach and this approach Based on the person's psyche and what I know about them and then when they went in Of course, all that goes to hell the minute you start talking you learn something new and you adjust So this thing will work and we'll go through and we'll pay attention to it Another couple of things for you to note is when she goes in she has to establish rapport and so she's establishing rapport with that Hey, I remember you from back when she's using non pertinent questions. If I say, did you kill this guy? That's a pertinent question. Where were you at two o'clock today? That's pertinent question Chase how long it take you to eat breakfast. That's a non pertinent question Until it's not so the way you work is the way you work You want to do a parallel path and that parallel path means I will ask questions that are pertinent But the seem non pertinent until I can close the gap Put you in that cell that is your head and let you work on it It's always true. The better it's better the devil, you know, than the devil you don't So if I just sit close to you, I'll start to believe you'll start to believe that I'm Better than the person who's coming in next, especially if the first guy was a jerk Um, I'll run through a couple body language things because I think it's really good He gets a she gets a smile out of him. You can see even this grainy video She gets a real smile out of him at you help me out on a call one night. See his cheeks rise You can't miss it pretty strong He you've all said he relax his feet out from under him when a person puts their feet mark I agree with you 100% when a person's feet are even just slightly curled under them so they can launch That's a great indicator What I love otherwise is watch him watch his fingers He's got this thing. I'm going to call the piano player when he feels any stress or duress his fingers go You can't miss it. It's a beautiful thing and it's a sign and why we teach people to resist in a certain way So they don't create their own stupid idea because watch his fingers throughout this I Know I get anything else. Oh, that's good. Thank you. All right Well, can you help me understand how I got to this point? I don't know Being on patrol and running into you one night. It's help me out on a call. We're back in Way back in uh, oh gosh, it's been all mixed Almost three years now Yeah, it's like like that You guys are always good to help us help help me too. Yeah, there's a brand you always stick right there, man Oh, absolutely. I worked on his shirt. So, you know, he he always had no back But I just don't understand how we got to this point And I mean either Well, I'm here to listen You're on top. I'm just afraid to go to bed. I don't blame you I don't blame you me too me too Now we could do that. You just talked to me Well, I just have to Since you've read those rights, I have to stay I have to do the right Well, what's the difference? Do you know the difference? No, what's the difference between knowing what the paper says and Telling, you know, especially that clues clues you out of everything. I mean, yeah Like the way I look at it is Regardless of something happened or not And if it did if it was an accident Tell me like let me help me help you Like I want to know what I can do or what happened today To be able to explain it later. I don't know what happened today. I just need to You know, people are gonna have questions your family. Yeah, I have questions Well, exactly. So so I can't wait for you to stop together Well, we can but I've been left in the dark on everything since Well, well, the thing is I can't There's certain things what you know, there's certain things I can tell you and I can't tell you But when you start to tell me what you did today So it's clear of things once you start telling me how you start telling me That's how it works Let me help you You have to help me first So I think yeah, of course So I can figure out what happened and what you were doing today. I mean where to talk to your wife Where to talk to your daughter. He's really sweet by the way. She's she's a really good kid. Yeah so The only step left is to talk to each other and figure out You know come get down to the bottom of it. What happened today? Okay, well today any different than every other day But until then we're kind of stuck Okay So you want to talk about it? I don't know what I'm looking over here Why don't we I don't know and you know what it says and I'm not here to trip you up. I mean I'm just being straightforward with you I just want to start from the beginning of the day and work our way down Filling all the spots for me so I can understand All right chase, what do you got so the speed of her body movement is slow And controlled This is one of the very first things that I teach anyone not just interrogation people So can you be the most comfortable person in the room? You don't have to be the most confident or the most dominant That's for people who need to fake their way into feeling in charge The real measure is about comfort not control So the more you start to observe people I think the more you're going to see Artificial confidence that's hiding under discomfort You also see his hands Go back into those fists the moment she Starts asking questions says what happened today. That's digital flexion again and I think she says when you start to tell me what you did today There's a method I teach a lot of my coaching clients She uses here with her voice and her body that makes him start to open up And you can see it playing as day with his hands just totally relaxing the digital extension here I wish I had time to go into it But you'll see him repeatedly gesture over to the table where the Miranda writes Paper he was that he signed and he talks about it So here's an extreme tip if you're in law enforcement if you have someone sign a paper like that This is also the location that you're later going to place a piece of paper Of what some people said that were nice about that person He's so open. He's always so helpful. He's always going to be there when you need him He tells it like it is he always tells the truth. He sets a great example All those things that friends and family would say about a person and not the accuser So the trick is to read a few of these out loud place them on the desk where the Miranda writes were this does not Mean that you're not going to be talking about the other accusations the negative stuff later in the conversation And you'll see him issue a stop gesture here Exactly at the end of this clip and see if you can see what the interrogator said To potentially cause this kind of nonverbal reaction. Maybe one of you guys will talk about it and Maybe you'll mention it in the comments and we'll learn something from you Scott, what do you got? All right, uh, she tell you're right when she tells him she wants to uh, when she asked him what happened We see those hands clench back up. It starts shutting him down again. He's still on on Um, he's focused on what's happening there. He's But he's he's not able to control that, you know, I say, uh A lot of people say, you know, you all teach people body language and helps you to Helps them to lie and all that. No, it doesn't at all You're seeing why it doesn't at all because this guy is on the impression again If he just sits there, you can't tell what's happening But you can tell everything that's happening because it goes down to the little tiny moves that are being made His hands if he's moving around a lot, you see his hands move We'll see it and you'll see it if you're a panelist, but if you're not you may miss that So it's all those little things that come into play at this point when you're that still and anything at all moves Then it really sticks out a lot For eye contact a lot of people here will say we'll say, you know, I think he brings up Why he's he's breaking eye contact in other words He explains why he's looking away because he's under the impression that breaking eye contact She's gonna think he's lying to her Well, we all know that's not true at all because what happens when you break eye contact, you're just thinking That's it. You're just thinking about what's happening And it's normal to break eye contact when you're giving an answer or you're explaining something because when you don't It looks weird because it's your brain trying to stay locked on that person So you can see if there are any changes in their face if their eyes look weird if their head turns You need to make sure your brain wants to make sure that they believe what you're saying That's what you're looking at. That's one of the biggest myths in body language is you break eye contact That's how I know they're lying. I I've told a couple things that a federal judge told me one this one guy I was I was training like four of them. They happened to be in this situation where I was training And one of them said I always do this when it comes to a breaking eye contact That's how I know or they always say this and I know they're lying and I was like, oh my lord We got to get you fixed. This is that's none of that's right at all None of it not even a little bit. So I had to explain to him about absolutes so many people don't understand That these little and I'm focusing on this because like the way that guy's sitting There are so many things that people think are absolutes like you do this with your shoulder real quick. It means you're lying No, it doesn't it means it suggests that you may be unsure about your answer That's my scratches. There are no's. I have a huge nose. I'm all the time hitting it Doesn't mean I'm lying doesn't mean that person's lying probably means their nose itches so Pay attention to the information that you take in from movies and tv shows and And stuff on the internet because you see a lot of stuff on there. That's just not true Mark, what do you got? Yeah, a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing like and subscribe And you'll get a little more knowledge and there'll be better for you Look, his angle is I'm not delivering. Okay Her angle is I just need to understand and she's minimizing as well So how's this going so far? At this stage in the game two videos in they're a little bit locked They're physically in antagonism to each other and you know a bit of a spoiler that won't change And and that we might have some issues further down the line But they're in antagonism, which means they're opposite each other geometrically Which means they're more likely to get into a battle with each other and systematically they are in a battle He's saying I'm not going to give anything and she's going I just need to understand she wants He's not going to give this is an argument at the moment She needs to get into more complement with him both geometrically and in You know the side that she's on she needs to get closer to him in some way not only physically I would say but also in her outlook Will she get there on the next video? We'll we'll find out But before that Greg, what are you going on this? Yeah, so let's first start with where Scott ended the reason that you don't look people in the eyes is very simple And that if somebody is staring you in the eyes, it's not a good sign And the reason is this I want you to think about the last thing you heard before you started watching this show Finds your eyes moving around that's because they do as we access memories our eyes move So when you ask me a question, I have to think of an answer for my eyes I'm going to move around in my head We'll go into another day another time where they might go and why and how to find out But just know that your eyes move when you're thinking and that's an important part of all conversations So when a person rivets eye contact, I'm concerned I always taught interrogators that a good interrogator is like a swan They're gracefully floating along the top of the water But if you look under the water, they're little legs. They're just paddling like hell They look really goofy when you look under there and that's what a good interrogator is doing And that's what she's doing and I'm going to show you how you can tell I have coached so many interrogators in my life About how to hide their their discomfort and she doesn't hide hers here She starts off with a solicitation interrogation too early in this case and she's doing a great job So if you're watching Nakona, we don't want you to think this is critique of you. This is just saying technique I think you did a great job But you went in too quickly and the reason you know she went in too quickly is because he picks up on it Remember, we said you got to get rapport You got to get to that place where you have a good Understanding of each other and then you can start poking and prodding. Otherwise you bounce off It's kind of like maslow. You can't differentiate until you belong and this is a very small microculture You're trying to establish once we belong then I can start playing the games So when she goes in too early, you see her mixing read and sharp She's doing a great job of all that stuff around. Hey, help me out. I need your help to make this work She's mixing non-course of interrogation styles The first thing to note that she is feeling uncomfortable She telegraphs openness, but she does soldier finger She puts her fingers the way all soldiers do we link We put our thumb to our index finger as part of our standing at the position of attention And I call when I see somebody do that soldier finger when they go into that thing She's trying to be open, but her right hand isn't that's the first part Then you watch her put her hand between her thighs She's progressively less open. He realizes that she's after him and that's the reason Scott. I agree with you He may or may not know a damn thing about interrogation or body language It's just because it's a cop doesn't mean he knows what we're looking for But he has heard at least before that eye contact matters and he starts to explain it away I think as you watch her and you you watch where she goes forward You'll see she does the same thing because she says I want to be straight with you That's her mind bleeding out trying to fix the problem She went too quickly and we're going to see her fix that very rapidly The other thing I'd tell you about interrogation is it's a dance And it's about knowing and threshold thinking is the term I've always used to explain it To every interrogation or licitation or counterintelligence student I've ever taught What you have to do is you have to keep your nose Just before dipping meaning I'm paying attention There's a concept in breaking when you're driving protective driving that you threshold break It means you're just before the front of your car dodging down The same thing works when you're talking to somebody I go just to the edge of saying you did it without saying you did it And if you're not careful, you step past that boundary and the person's on notice So that dance will see evolve. She does a go in back up go in back up go in back up Until she actually gets the point where she needs to close and then you've got closure for the interrogation. It's all I got One of those tape replays The way like the way I look at it is Regardless of something happened or not And if it did if it was an accident Tell me like let me help me help you like I want to know what I can do Or what happened today To be able to explain it later. I don't know what happened today. I just need to You know, people are gonna have questions your family. Yeah, I have questions Well, exactly. So so I can't wait for you to stop together Well, we can but I've been left in the dark on everything since Well, well, the thing is I can't they're certainly it's what you know There's certain things I can tell you and I can't tell you But when you start to tell me what you did today So it's clear of things once you start telling me how you start telling me That's how it works Let me help you You have to help me first So I think yeah, of course So I can figure out what happened and what you were doing today. I mean I were to talk to your wife You already talked to your daughter. He's really sweet by the way. She's she's a really good kid. Yeah so The only step left is to talk to each other and figure out You know come get down to the bottom of it. What happened today? Okay, well today any different than every other day But until then we're kind of stuck Okay So you want to talk about it? I don't know. Well, I'm looking over there. Well, I don't really know the finger I don't know and you know what it says and I'm not here to trip you up. I mean I'm just being straightforward with you I just want to start from the beginning of your day and work our way down Filling all the spots for me so I can understand Beginning of your day and work our way down Filling all the spots for me so I can understand When you start from the very beginning I mean, I know you probably slept in because you worked out. It's I worked nice Trusting I worked nights for almost four years. I understand how that sleep schedule is Yeah, I was sleep talk Missed it. You could oh absolutely. It doesn't matter if you switch the day shift schedule Your sleep's still going to be messed up for a while. I still fight it every once in a while Did you sleep in today? Yeah, I bet you did. You could have got to work tonight, huh? Yeah. Yeah What time did you get up? Um, I don't even know I'm probably around New Year's Around noon That's usually about time I got up too. I'd sleep in as long as I could Around noon You getting anything done today? No I don't know Do you watch anything good on TV? Usually that's what I do. I eat and watch TV I'll move myself up a little bit Anything good? Single stuff Oh, yeah You watch the same episodes or like do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch? One would watch that Or it's hands is on the I can't remember what channel it's called right now TV land Oh, okay Amy Griffin So the speed of her body movement is slow and controlled This is one of the very first things that I teach anyone not just interrogation people So can you be the most comfortable person in the room? You don't have to be the most confident or the most dominant That's for people who need to fake their way into feeling in charge The real measure is about comfort not control So the more you start to observe people, I think the more you're going to see Artificial confidence that's hiding under discomfort You also see his hands Go back into those fists the moment she Starts asking questions says what happened today. That's digital flexion again and I think she says when you start to tell me what you did today There's a method I teach a lot of my coaching clients She uses here with her voice and her body that makes him start to open up and you can see it plain as day With his hands just totally relaxing the digital extension here I wish I had time to go into it, but you'll see him repeatedly gesture over to the table Where the Miranda writes Paper he was that he signed and he talks about it So here's an extreme tip if you're in law enforcement If you have someone sign a paper like that This is also the location that you're later going to place a piece of paper Of what some people said that were nice about that person He's so open. He's always so helpful. He's always going to be there when you need him He tells it like it is. He always tells the truth. He sets a great example All those things that friends and family would say about a person and not the accuser So the trick is to read a few of these out loud place them on the desk where the Miranda writes were this does not Mean that you're not going to be talking about the other accusations the negative stuff later in the conversation And you'll see him issue a stop gesture here Exactly at the end of this clip and see if you can see what the interrogator said To potentially cause this kind of nonverbal reaction. Maybe one of you guys will talk about it and Maybe you'll mention it in the comments and we'll learn something from you Scott, what do you got? All right She tell you're right when she tells him she wants to uh, when she asked him what happened We see those hands clench back up. It starts shutting him down again. He's still on on He's focused on what's happening there. He's but he's he's not able to control that You know, I see a lot of people say, you know, you all teach people body language and helps you to Helps them to line all that no it doesn't at all You're seeing why it doesn't at all because this guy is on the impression again If he just sits there, you can't tell what's happening But you can tell everything that's happening because it goes down to the little tiny moves that are being made His hands if he's moving around a lot, you see his hands move We'll see it and you'll see it if you're a panelist But if you're not you may miss that So it's all those little things that come into play at this point when you're that still and anything at all moves Then it really sticks out a lot For eye contact a lot of people here will say we'll say, you know, I think he brings up Why he's he's breaking eye contact in other words He explains why he's looking away because he's under the impression that breaking eye contact She's gonna think he's lying to her Well, we all know that's not true at all because what happens when you break eye contact, you're just thinking That's it. You're just thinking about what's happening And it's normal to break eye contact when you're giving an answer or you're explaining something because when you don't It looks weird because it's your brain trying to stay locked on that person So you can see if there are any changes in their face if their eyes look weird if their head turns You need to make sure your brain wants to make sure that they believe what you're saying That's what you're looking at. That's one of the biggest myths in body language is you break eye contact. That's how I know they're lying I I've told a couple things that a federal judge told me one this one guy I was I was training like four of them. They happened to be in this situation where I was training And one of them said I always do this when it comes to breaking eye contact That's how I know or they always say this and I know they're lying and I was like, oh my lord We got to get you fixed. This is that's none of that's right at all None of it not even a little bit. So I had to explain to him about absolutes. So many people don't understand That these little and I'm focusing on this because the way that guy's sitting There are so many things that people think are absolutes like you do this with your shoulder real quick. It means you're lying No, it doesn't it means it suggests that you may be unsure about your answer It's my scratches. They're nose. I have a huge nose. I'm all the time hitting it It doesn't mean I'm lying doesn't mean that person's lying probably means their nose itches so Pay attention to the information that you take in from movies and tv shows and Stuff on the internet because you see a lot of stuff on there. That's just not true Mark, what do you got? Yeah, a little bit of knowledge can be a very dangerous thing Like and subscribe and you'll get a little more knowledge and there'll be better for you Look, his angle is I'm not delivering. Okay Her angle is I just need to understand and she's minimizing as well So how's this going so far? At this stage in the game two videos in they're a little bit locked They're physically in antagonism to each other and you know a bit of a spoiler that won't change And and that we might have some issues further down the line But they're in antagonism, which means they're opposite each other geometrically which means they're more likely to get into a battle with each other And systematically they are in a battle. He's saying I'm not going to give anything and she's going I just need to understand she wants. He's not going to give This is an argument at the moment She needs to get into more complement with him both geometrically and in You know the side that she's on she needs to get closer to him in some way not only physically I would say but also in her outlook Will she get there on the next video? We'll we'll find out But before that Greg, what are you going on this? Yes, so let's first start with where Scott ended the reason that you don't look people in the eyes is very simple And that if somebody is staring you in the eyes, it's not a good sign And the reason is this I want you to think about the last thing you heard before you started watching this show Finds your eyes moving around that's because they do as we access memories our eyes move So when you ask me a question, I have to think of an answer for my eyes I'm going to move around in my head We'll go into another day another time where they might go and why and how to find out But just know that your eyes move when you're thinking and that's an important part of all conversations So when a person rivets eye contact, I'm concerned I always taught interrogators that a good interrogator is like a swan They're gracefully floating along the top of the water But if you look under the water, they're little legs. They're just paddling like hell They look really goofy when you look under there and that's what a good interrogator is doing And that's what she's doing and I'm going to show you how you can tell I have coached so many interrogators in my life about how to hide their their discomfort and she doesn't hide hers here She starts off with a solicitation Interrogation too early in this case and she's doing a great job. So if you're watching Nakona, we don't want you to think this is critique of you. This is just saying technique I think you did a great job But you went in too quickly and the reason you know she went in too quickly is because he picks up on it Remember, we said you got to get rapport You got to get to that place where you have a good Understanding of each other and then you can start poking and prodding. Otherwise you bounce off It's kind of like maslow. You can't differentiate until you belong and this is a very small Microculture you're trying to establish once we belong then I can start playing the games So when she goes in too early, you see her mixing read and sharp She's doing a great job of all that stuff around. Hey, help me out. I need your help to make this work She's mixing non-course of interrogation styles The first thing to note that she is feeling uncomfortable She telegraphs openness, but she does soldier finger She puts her fingers the way all soldiers do we link We put our thumb to our index finger as part of our standing at the position of attention And I call when I see somebody do that soldier finger when they go into that thing She's trying to be open, but her right hand isn't that's the first part Then you watch her put her hand between her thighs. She's progressively less open He realizes that she's after him and that's the reason Scott. I agree with you He may or may not know a damn thing about interrogation or body language Just because it's a cop doesn't mean he knows what we're looking for But he has heard at least before that eye contact matters and he starts to explain it away I think as you watch her and you you watch where she goes forward You'll see she does the same thing because she says I want to be straight with you That's her mind bleeding out trying to fix the problem She went too quickly and we're going to see her fix that very rapidly The other thing I'd tell you about interrogation is it's a dance And it's about knowing and threshold thinking is the term I've always used to explain it To every interrogation or licitation or counterintelligence student I've ever taught What you have to do is you have to keep your nose Just before dipping meaning I'm paying attention There's a concept in breaking when you're driving protective driving that you threshold break It means you're just before the front of your car dodging down The same thing works when you're talking to somebody I go just to the edge of saying you did it without saying you did it And if you're not careful, you step past that boundary and the person's on notice So that dance will see evolve. She does a go in back up go in back up go in back up Until she actually gets the point where she needs to close and then you've got Closure for the interrogation. One of those tape replays From the beginning of your day and work our way down Filling all the spots for me so I can understand We insert from the very beginning I mean, I know you probably slept in because you worked nights. I worked nights Trusting I worked nights for almost four years. I understand how fast sleep schedule is Yeah, sleep's all Missed it. You could oh, absolutely. It doesn't matter if you switch the day shift schedule Your sleep's still going to be messed up for a while. I still fight it every once in a while Did you sleep in today? Yeah, I bet you didn't you could have got to work tonight, huh? Yeah. Yeah What time did you get up? I don't know I don't even know I'm probably around Around noon. That's usually about time I got up too. I'd sleep in as long as I could Around noon. Do you have anything done today? No Do you watch anything good on TV? Usually that's what I do. I eat and watch TV Tell myself up a little bit Anything good Same old stuff Oh, yeah You watch the same episode or like do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch? When we watched that I thought it's hands is on the I can't remember what channel it's called right now TV land. Oh, okay What shows play on that like Amy Griffin at least you got a day off from household chores. So that's nice Oh, yeah You just prep for getting ready for work tonight uh Just pretty much just Yeah Do you get anything done outside today? It was so nice day. It was beautiful. Yeah. No. No. It was like 80 degrees or more It was amazing outside. What was the deal? I don't know. It's most of my allergies today though. Mine too. That's Well part of my Of my mind is about itching and stuff. Oh, yeah, mine too And then when I sit in that car will go not brand's car, but the other one So that I think it was in the wrong car. Oh, yeah anyway, but Um, I was sitting there like that for a little bit and I started sweating and then for me to get my eyes on the front Boy, I don't think I'm helped up Okay No, I think we all know better Did you know experience outside today at all? Not really. No. Oh my gosh I know. Did you a little bit at least get out of the line? Did any yard work today? Did you feel like that? No See Fred the chickens. Oh, did you? Fried the chickens and Through some Seed out some grass seed out there in front of the front porch. Oh, yeah, does that take a long time? I've never done that before. Yeah, I've had the dog My dog used to be on the lease. He runs off. Oh, he does After having my machine He's in the house around the chain usually so And I hate that because he's a running, you know, he likes to run and stuff, but he you know Yeah, I'm supposed to have dogs who's anyway, and he just goes and goes Yeah, who knows gets out of the center. I missed you. So But uh, so I moved him in the backyard now, but he was That's uh I had him on the post in the front yard and and he would get to running I just scratched the ground up like that And uh, he just made a big massive big bear spot out there Greg what do you got? So now she starts back in remember, I said you back off you go in you back off you go in And she starts to use non pertinent question beautiful thing. I love non pertinent for two reasons Number one is it builds rapport? It strengthens a relationship But if you're smart you use a parallel path to freeze timeline and she starts that very effectively when you start saying Hey, what'd you do today? I watch mash. How many episodes four? Well, there's two hours you day Um, what did you do next? What'd you do next? What'd you do next? And she does common ground with him by doing the allergy thing the weather issue This is easier as you get older the good thing about aging is we always say graveyards are the best elicitation guys because we don't have To make up something if I sit down on the chair next to you move like that two old guys. They'll say yeah, I feel your pain Yawning is a way to build common ground because people will come to you They'll open the statement and never feel like you started the conversation So there are lots of ways to do it, but the older you get the easier it gets Um watch his head rise to the same level and then drop with her when I teach salespeople in corporate america I always teach them this is acceptance and sinking when he raises his head up to her same level and then they both drop That's sinking. You've got something you're connected with that person I associate with acceptance in in sales and other places You can do that today yourself pay attention to the person you're talking to raise your head when their head raises as well Then drop back to the same level, you know, you've synced with them And you will have some some connection with them that rapport is starting to develop Watch that smiling and quick nodding and piano playing again Is he starts to feel stress about feel about being rude? And she's doing a great job of this non pertinent to lock him down and what I mean by non pertinent Let's go back to seer school When I would bring in guys like say chase and I would say chase. Where are you stationed? He would say I'm not telling you that or you try to avoid it And then I get him on the family and you tell me about his son Who is the number one student at the Fayetteville middle school? Dumb ass who just said I live in Fayetteville, North Carolina And it happened all the time because it feels like a non-threatening question And hawn sharp would call this non interrogator when you come in and you hang out Reason I said scott when you're saying she's doing this. There's a term for it The sharp method would call that non interrogator or change of scene Mark, what do you got? Yeah, let me give you my opinion on why this is even more brilliant than that Greg what I'd like anybody to everybody watching this right now What I'd like you to do is to raise your hand if you've never experienced sleep If you have no idea what sleep is And you've never slept in your life So that's that's everybody everybody here has experienced sleep It's a universal and what she's done is to enter into a theme which is universal the theme of sleep There's many universal themes out there Sleep is one of them everybody has experienced it if they're a human being that has never experienced it They're already dead. They died Really early on really early on so She gets into the theme of sleep and what happens he gets talking because it's so easy to join in On a universal theme remember I said in the last video that they were in antagonism thematically I'm not going to talk and Her going I need I want information now. They're aligned. They're aligned on the theme of sleep and what's you doing? He's talking just as you said there Greg It feels non pertinent at this point and then she maneuvers it into so what did you do after that and I watched tv What did you watch on tv? Now you've got something that you could verify Now you could go well what was on tv that that morning if you wanted to go down that route I'm not sure whether she's wanting to go down that route She may be but this is now now you've got information you could come back and go Hey, you said you watched this show but we've had a look and it wasn't on at that time So help me out. Help me out. I don't understand. Help me out with this one. Why would that be? I think that's brilliant and she does get in talking But then he's back again to not talking so it's going to be A slog of some sort to get him talking even more But I have to say what are we we're like we're like three videos in with this This interviewer and I would start to lay money that this is an interviewer that can do it So far what she's shown me is this is somebody who can really play and and and I'm excited by seeing more Chase, what do you got in this one? If you see somebody getting pulled into an interrogation room and they don't talk about why they're there If they know why they're there and they don't talk about it That's very bad. That's a very bad sign if they don't know why they're there and they don't ask about it That's also a horribly ridiculously bad sign And that's exactly what we're seeing here like no, why am I here? Which every Reasonable person in the world would say what am I doing here? Why am I here? Let's talk about this key issue I'm sitting in a police station Instead of being more willing to talk about television and feeding chickens and all that kind of stuff But she immediately just identifies these similarities in their lifestyle and talks about it. She's using one Technique here called elicitation Which we're going to talk about in a few minutes that I wish we had time to really dive into because it's one of the most Powerful tools you can use and just about any conversation But she says and you have to work later today She means well But this question is one that I would advise all Interiators never to ask never ask about things that are often the future Keeping a person in short term thinking Is the most powerful way to get truthful confessions and interrogations Then asking questions about future plans and future things like the weekend the weather on the weekend Puts them into future mindedness When you're increasing the likelihood they're going to worry about legal consequences and narratives and social consequences of their actions So short term thinking is why infomercials work well on us Why an intelligent person can kind of be talked into joining a cult And all kinds of other stuff that might not be in our best interest So if you're an interrogator one of your top three priorities is keeping that person you're talking to in short term thinking Then she gets them to open up one time about watching the tv Uses a tactic called informational altruism To get them to start uh doing this if you ever trained in this you'll Learn that if somebody ever starts exposing information they feel they shouldn't There's an immediate reaction of internal fear And it's our job as interviewers to mitigate that fear immediately without hesitation And we can do this by sharing something similar which is the kind of the reverse of informational altruism Or just reminding them of how common what they just said is and how it's not a big deal So keep those in mind if you're ever going to be an interrogator or if you ever talk to human beings Uh That's everybody. No, it's me. He almost said it Anyway, big nose bad haircut glasses top right That's what I thought it was going to be. All right I think the reason she's asking about the late night stuff So she can continue to be like him and get a get a tighter Time lot on so I agree with the chase, but I think she went that extra that extra up there So she she'd get a better handle on what happened that day or what his day usually looks like what time he goes What time he gets ready and all that because he's going late and she's going late too I think she sees it as a way to connect with him So I think that's the only reason she would use that but I would agree with the other than that Um, but I I think she when she gets them started talking about his day I think that's that's great because she says what time do you what time do you get up? And he's telling her and the reason that they're talking about she's asking about Would you watch tv or whatever because like you guys were talking about she can lock down what time it was And how many episodes he watched to how long he was doing that because they're looking for this window in there Where he supposedly committed a crime So she's got to be able to knock out everything from the morning to the mid-afternoon because apparently this happened I think maybe before they went out to eat or something because as it works up to there because she gets everything But that little section before they go out to eat and he's not sure how long something takes He's been feeding the chickens have been goofing around the dog Which we found in a few minutes, but I think this is just a great way that she's doing Using this opportunity to get a good timeline on you guys have talked about everything else. So that's all I got one of those tape replays Well, at least you got a day off from household chores. So that's nice. Oh, yeah, you just prep for getting ready for work tonight Just pretty much just Yeah Do you get anything done outside today? It was so nice day. It was beautiful Yeah, I don't know. It was like 80 degrees or more. It was amazing outside What was the deal? I don't know. It's the most of my allergies today though. Mine too. That's Well part of that Of my mine is about 18 Oh, yeah, mine too. And then when I sit in that car will go not brand's car, but the other one So that I think it was in the wrong car. Oh, yeah Anyway, but I was sitting in there like that for a little bit and I Just started to sweat and then for me to get my eyes on the front door. I think I'm like hopped up I think we all know better Did you experience outside today at all? Not really. No. Oh my gosh I know. Did you a little bit at least get out of the way? Did any yard work today? Did you feel like that? No See Fender chickens. Oh, did you? Freedom chickens and Through some Seed out some grass seed out there in front of the front porch. Oh, yeah Does that take a long time? I've never done that before. You know had the dog My dog used to be on the leash. He runs off. Oh, he does After having him on the chain He's in the house or on the chain usually so And I hate that because he's a running, you know, he likes to run and stuff, but he You know, yeah, I'm supposed to have dogs who sing away and he just goes and goes Yeah, who knows? I guess in the times when I missed you. So But uh, so I moved him in the backyard now, but he was uh I had him on the post in the front yard and and he would get to run Just scratch the ground up like that And uh, he just made a big mess a big bear spot out there So I threw some grass in the house and I bought up in uh I think you got a dog general. Oh really? Is that pretty Tom can see me? Yeah, I feel like that would be hard. He just is it's pretty simple. You just throw it out there You don't have to have like that or water on it. Yeah, I think that's a good idea Yeah, I think that's a good idea Yeah, I think that's a good idea Yeah, I think that's a good idea Yeah, I think that's a good idea Yeah, I think that's a good idea Well, if you do it right it might be, but I'll just I didn't have to have like a You know one of those machines that you laid out for you, you know, I'm talking about the Yeah, a spreader or something Something like that Yeah, what do you think? I just opened a bag for two out there How many chickens you got? Let's see I think we got four hens And three boosters I'm a dusky baby Well, not really. I mean, I've been keeping them up too because they get out there and they're the The kiosks and And raccoons and things have been getting them. Yeah, and uh, I don't think it maybe a fox or two That's looked up there because somebody said they've seen some foxes out there. Yeah, and uh, and then uh Uh Oh big big hawks chicken hawks, I guess I'm down and get them and and uh Who doubts? Oh, I've heard a lot. I've never seen a rabbit. You never heard what they do? Don't they just like fly down and grow them and get out? Well, the owls The hawks that they will, but the owls they get up on there It's the middle of the night, right? And if there ain't a tree, which most of mine that have disappeared were in a tree instead of getting in their Low reach I have in their form and they uh So they sit up there like this is the branch. Okay, hang them over the tree and uh Or a tree limb when they're sleeping or whatever But who now get up there next to them? And then if you get right up on them They just, you know, I'm gonna just sleep over there, but uh Then they're sitting there sitting there Sleeping they just keep getting up next to them until They skewed off the end of that branch and they hit the ground and ounces on top of and I know Well, my grandpa All right chase. What do you got? So she's doing a terrific job So remember that when somebody's Giving something up that they did not plan on revealing there's that automatic reaction that's going to take place There's fear and vulnerability associated with this even though he's just talking about chickens and dogs and all that stuff He didn't plan on revealing it and he is which means there's fear so It's important here as an interviewer You want to act in a way that ensures the person is both hearing and seeing a lack of judgment That's a big deal and most times the interviewer can share something similar This clip is a little different though. If you're seeing somebody reveal something That they take pride in So like feeding these chickens and all that and that information is something they didn't plan on sharing Chances are that the most effective Action that you can take is being fascinated with the topic and admitting to knowing nothing about it, which uh Greg is referred to as naivete here that she does a great job doing this and might have benefited from a very brief use of profanity here And just to kind of exit that norm. So like saying holy s word in response to this story about the chicken owl hawk thing whatever that was this surprise Covers all the bases and makes her vulnerable as well because she's stepping outside of this Professional lane that she's supposed to be staying in So she's stepping outside of her perceived perceived limits as well, which makes everything okay So that's uh all I got on that one mark. What do you got? Yeah, so I love this again because what we're being shown here is her ability to do mirroring and and Everybody out there, especially if you're a subscriber Will understand what we mean by mirroring and it's not copying the exact movements of somebody else That frankly does not work and it's just bizarre What she's doing is mirroring the extent to which he's started to open up his gestures Not the exact gestures. So as he opens up more of his body She opens up more of her body, but in a significantly different way So he's not going to detect Exactly that she's mirroring, but certainly he's going to feel that build of rapport from her And and it works because he goes down this this alley of telling some stories that may not seem Permanent and they may have a some pertinence about them. Certainly, you know from an analytical point of view It's very interesting for me that his movement And engagement and lean forward his his how active he is how exercised he gets Just goes way off his baseline when he talks about night predators foxes and hawks Uh and and and starts to talk then about the night predator of I think the owl and describes Uh The method of predation which is to gain proximity then to see then to to um to create vulnerability And then attack proximity vulnerability and attack Uh, I saw recently a a hawk near me that took out a pigeon And and I was quite interested by it because I've never really seen this, uh, you know with my naked eye I've seen it on national geographic and whatever quite interested by it um So, you know, I watched it But I didn't think about it a lot. I'm only just thinking about it now. It kind of comes to mind I didn't think about it a lot. He's really thought about these night time predators. It seems to me I just find that analytically. I think it's interesting Uh, and she gets in there Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, and the bird he's talking about his screech owl It's the size of this coffee cup tiny so it can't tear this thing and the other thing is birds feet lock You know, so what they do and I find there's some irony in this as they sit down next to you create Kind of some proximity or rapport then they nudge Until you fall off the limb And I find it ironic that he can't see the analogy to what she's doing to him because it is a beautiful analogy She just sat down next to him and she's going to slide up next to him and continually push him And it's a beautiful analogy The one thing that is pertinent in this entire thing when he starts telling the story Is we get a beautiful baseline for what he normally does Scott always says I can't talk without using my hands. He's probably right and this guy doesn't normally The most complex thing to do when you're learning to resist interrogation Is to get so comfortable that the mask doesn't move Meaning I have to pretend to be someone I'm not when I'm trying to resist an interrogation I have to pretend that I'm helping even though I'm not helping and what we see him do when he's trying to help Is that front of the mouth talking scott? You brought it up in the very first video He's talking like this kind of pushing everything out to the front He's not talking in the back and we hear that change when he starts talking about this bird Now let's talk about her naivete because what what every person who is We built the whole seer course based on a lot of vietnam and korea experiences and what people told us Was everything an interrogator did was a trick or a ploy that was their words not ours So they recognize that that was the thing and once we get your baseline You're on a glue board and then you can't get away. We just keep pulling on you and And tethering you in and one of the best ways to do that is naivete naivete is actually a An elicitation technique. We say interrogation has 14 approaches They're all pretty confrontational and attacking your ego so that you your psyche is feeling the pressure and you get it locked in But we also use elicitation that means i'm trying to without asking get information She does a beautiful job of of this whole thing around naivete meaning i'm young I don't know you have to teach me and when she does that the natural teacher in this guy comes out So we know that's who he is and then he he should do that every time you ask him a question And he doesn't so we got a baseline The last thing and chase this goes back to your last time We can arm share quarterback this to death and talk about subtleties of language She asks a hard question. She shouldn't have asked Likely unintentionally, but she says does that take a long time? Boom that tells you what she's thinking. This is the third time She's worked around something that is questioning time So she's trying to establish a timeline for his day probably to put him in place Don't know but I can hear that that time is an important part of what she's looking for We see him sit When we see him sit back from now on and go into that resistant pose It should scream at you and know that when he moves his fingers, there's some issue Uh scott, would you go? Yeah, she's she's still trying to uh create rapport with him And get that happening because when he starts talking about that that dog and trying to be all cute and stuff She lets him think it's all cute and stuff because she's laughing And she tells the story that's similar to his and then she goes on to talk to get him talk about these things It just seemed mundane and boring and something nobody'd be interested in at all But she's getting that timeline for the day. She's got a little basket and every time he says something she puts it in the basket Every little thing he says she puts a little basket and then she's going to go back through She's going to arrange everything the way it should go And she'll know what his timeline was and where that that time is open where this crime happened That's what she's going to want to talk about it. That's that's that's what she's working toward in other words She's closing in on him and if you didn't know this was an interrogation if you were just listening to it and turned it on When she starts talking to him, you'd think it's two people talking in the kitchen or something around the porch It's just Sitting there talking no big deal. Just nothing's happening But she's using this this tactic this this approach to Uh zero in on him and close in on him and she's I think she's doing a great job of it And he gets around She's stretched the ground up like that And uh He just made a big massive big bear spot out there. So I threw some grass and out that I bought up into I think you got a dollar general. Oh really? Is that pretty time-consuming? Do all that? I feel like that would be hard. He just is it's pretty simple. You just throw it out there You don't have to have like that or water on it Well, if you do it right it might be but I just I You know one of those machines that you laid out for you, you know, I'm talking about the Yeah How many chickens you got Oh Let's see I think I've got four hands I'm through I'm a dusky baby Well, not really. I mean I've been keeping them up too because they get out there and they're the Well coyotes and And raccoons and things have been getting them. Yeah, and uh, I don't think it made you a fox or two It's slipped up there because somebody said they'd seen some foxes out there. Yeah, and uh, and uh Uh Oh big big hawks chicken hawks, I guess come down and get them and and uh Who doubts? Oh, I've heard a lot. I've never seen one of it. You never heard what they do? Don't they just like fly down and grow them and keep going? Well, the owls They've got the hawks that they will but the owls they get up on there It's a middle of the night, right? Yeah And if there ain't a tree which most of mine that have disappeared were in a tree instead of getting in their Lowry's I have in their form and they uh So they sit up there like this is the branch. Okay hanging over the tree and uh Or a tree in them when they're sleeping or whatever But who know I'll get up there next to them And then if you get right up on them They just you know, I mean this is stupid, okay, but uh Then they're sitting there sitting there Sleeping and they just keep getting up next to them until They steamed off the end of that branch and they hit the ground and ounces on top of them and But I know Well, my grandpa I don't even remember October, November, so I just started keeping them up all the time Feeding and watering them. What time do you get out there and feed the chickens today? Oh after noon Yeah Like one or two o'clock. Yeah, something like that. Oh, it's beautiful today Beautiful said you feed your chickens and start laying the seed down on the grass Well, let's see I don't Yeah, I think just right after that. I had that bag sit up there. I thought well, I better get that out there Mine's well Enjoy this day If it's only like this, maybe you'll grow Yeah Hey, and maybe I mean we're supposed to get rain this weekend. So Really? Yeah, yeah Somebody says it's supposed to be nice. Yeah, it's supposed to be nice. I think Well today was pretty and I think Friday's supposed to be pretty Saturday, I think it's going to go to like the 60s and then Saturday night. I want to say there's probably a good chance of rain like 40% or so Somebody's supposed to get down to 25 degrees Saturday. I'm ready for that. I'm not either. I think it's I'm already working on that. So I'm not ready for that Well, so what do you do after you got your chickens fed? All your seed laid down just like back in the house. Oh, yeah Do anything when you were inside Playing on the computer. Oh, yeah, like sometime in there Anything good any games? No, just a stupid game. I played It's a call Call it warped call it warped All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah Here she's going down this baseline with non pertinent again She's poking poking poking but she goes a little bit too suddenly And you know, you can tell because he goes back to that resistant posture when she starts poking on timeline He goes back that resistant posture. Why don't know doesn't matter that I know It just tells me there's something going on and I have to go back The other interesting thing is before she gets to that he has his arms folded This is body language myth number one that everybody learns in high school psychology Is that if you cross your arms you're blocking me out Heavy people often will rest their arms in this way. There are other people that will So if you if you believe that myth You need to subscribe to this channel because we'll blow those myths out of the water in every show we do And this is one of them when a person crosses their arms, it means nothing in his case It can mean something in his case He's relaxed and he's kind of in a data intake mood and he's sitting there We'll see him go back to that resistant posture with his hands on his legs Which is wide open and that may make you think he's being honest, but he's being far from honest here He's just resistant to the questioning She realizes she goes too quickly. He goes back to that resistant posture And so she has to back up and go at it again. I love watching this interrogation She does a beautiful job of knowing when to go in and when to go out He goes to a vague language about time And then he goes to a chaff in that timeline and some ambiguous language He even does a disbelief that really I didn't know that face kind of yeah, really I didn't know that But he's still in that resistant posture She he opens up again on non pertinent and But then anytime she has this timeline you see him starting to lock down And I just I'll leave it at that but think Is he you can also see when she's asking the question He starts to resist watch him go into internal voices He thinks about why she's asking the question as he's responding and he's vague His eyes are down into his left and we associate that with internal conversation If you try to do a calculation your eyes will do it If you think about why somebody's asking something your eyes will do it and it's just a good indicator Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look all I've got is that I saw exactly the same as you there Greg he's he's now become very concerned about questioning of the timeline and it shuts him down It's become obvious to him Now and and he goes back to that resistance pose So I just want to pick up on what you're saying there about Arms crossed there. Let me give you two things the arms crossed can mean I don't think it's the case for this but just to add a little nuance of arms crossed means more than you think it can mean This is one of the ways that sometimes people stay awake when they're getting tired and they want to pay attention Upcome the arms like this, especially if they don't have arms on their chairs to help keep their blood pressure and heart rate up by raising their arms They'll do this to stay awake often when somebody's about to make a decision They'll do this in order to shut down the amount of neural load that that happens if your hands are going around They want to shut that down To get more of their brain making a decision and I could go on and on and on as to the reasons why People cross their arms and I might never even I get too tired to mention You know that they're closed because that's often one of the least reasons why people cross their arms Chase what are you on this one? This is a perfect example of what you learned earlier about short-term thinking The precise and exact moment that she starts talking about the weekend the future And pulls him out of short-term thinking his entire body goes crazy He goes into digital flexion into fists He expends a load of all the nervous energy from all of his limbs He turns his head away and then there's just a huge spike in nervous behavior This tiny little mention about the future is the only thing that was really brought up right before we see all of these behaviors So with your goal as an interviewer or even if you're in sales or copywriting or jury selection Whatever it is Is to keep Someone's mental thought process locked into this tiny little piece of timeline That never extends very far in the future So the moment he releases all that tension Is when he says i'm not ready for that And he's talking about the cold temperatures But think about the phrase for just a second there Later he starts opening up again about the mention of the the video game So keep in mind. I would still place her in the top one percent of interviewers I have ever seen so none of this commentary is criticism at all But as you're watching this now, you know what you're looking for And how to get information from people and you probably saw She could have been using statements and a lot of these instead of questions to make them a little bit more comfortable Scott where you go? All right one more time I can't tell you how many times somebody in the comments has said You're training people how to look like they're not telling like they're being honest when they're being interrogated That that's not it at all. And this is the perfect example. Why because This guy is constantly focusing on good body language And then when he when he relaxes and he he sort of loses track of it That's when he gets those arms crossed his legs are crossed He's all squinched back in his seat and relax and and you can you can keep up that little that little Show for a little while but not forever. It's really really tough When he realizes what's happening that I think is one of the things that sparks For him to straighten back up and go back to the way he was Because he's so he was so relaxed and just talking that's how she's getting into his head. She's already in there And uh, so I I think it's so important to pay attention to that because his body language is so obvious It's it's so and again going back to that thing where if you're just sitting there and the slightest little thing moves Okay, you say adapter. This bothers him. There's an issue there You can tell so much more by that than by us telling you things. Oh act like this or you know Here's how we see someone who's unsure and those types of things I wish everybody would would approach their Interrogation like this because it would be so so much easier for us if they would just sit there like that We just have to watch their hands and their legs or any kind of movement. It just Flies out of there. It's so big now when she brings up the weather He gets a lot of stress in the system and he stretches his legs and fingers again And he knows what she's doing, but he can't collar on it not yet He does a little bit later on in a in a way He doesn't quite say I know what you're doing, but he will see later on his approach to that But it's really interesting how he handles all this because again There's still this little game going on where they both know what's going on But neither one of them will say exactly what's going on Nobody goes in for the hard questioning at all on either side And it's kind of like that that feeling to get when you get in trouble And you're called to a meeting and they have to talk to you I'm very familiar with this And you're just sitting there waiting like how's your day been they're sitting there talking to you and Everything seems you know like it's going to be fine or it's fine for that point until they get to the question part Again, that's what's happening here And there should be a point where it all it all comes together, which it does in a few minutes it all comes together I don't want to go too far on this because there's a there's a little a little glitch in in that part of it But there should be a section where it all comes together And it makes sense and then you can ask the questions you need to ask and get things Started toward what's called a close or closing it so I think he's he's way too focused on the way he looks To even be thinking about much else because his brain I'm sure is on fire Thinking about oh, wow. I've got to I'm paying attention to what I'm doing. I'm looking innocent. I didn't do anything I'm not moving. I'm not doing anything But again, that's what's telling her everything and as she's doing this is this weird little play is going on between them both She's just collecting information She gets a little bit here a little bit there and just keeps putting all that stuff in her basket And she's gonna lay it out and look at the timeline and know something's wrong there One of those tape replays Oh I don't even remember October. No neighbors. So I just started keeping them up all the time Feed them and monitor what time do you get out there and feed the chickens today? Oh After me One or two o'clock. Yeah, something like that. Oh, it's beautiful today Beautiful So do you feed your chickens and start laying the seed down with the grass? Well, let's see I don't Yeah, I think just right after that. I had that back sitting up there. I thought well, I better get that out there Mine's well. Enjoy this day. Yeah, I thought if it's only like this, maybe you're a girl Yeah Hey, and maybe it's I mean, we're supposed to get rained this weekend. So Yeah, yeah, it's supposed to be somebody says it's supposed to be nice. Yeah, so see nice. I think Well today was pretty and I think Friday supposed to be pretty Saturday, I think it's going to go to like the 60s and then Saturday night, I'm going to say there's probably a good chance Very like 40% or somebody's supposed to get down to 25 degrees Saturday I'm not ready for that. I'm not either. I think it's it. I'm already working on that. So I'm not ready for that Well, so what do you do after you got your chickens fed? All your seed laid down just like back in the house. Oh, yeah Do anything when you went inside? Playing on the computer. Oh, yeah, like sometime in there Anything good any games? No, just a stupid game. I played uh, it's a cult Call it war Well, that's cool Yeah, you're well, you got some stuff done outside Passing time inside. What was your life doing? She's still watching tv and Well, what's up, don't go to dinner But I didn't y'all see you mentioned get back from dinner or come back from dinner Why didn't she probably told y'all that or her man? I thought somebody had mentioned it earlier like when we were sail out on the road I thought he had mentioned it to somebody whenever he had pulled up Hey, I don't even know what time Was what time did we get to dinner? I was on the house for You remember? No Where'd I go to eat? Coltons. Oh, hey, where are my daughter this time? She's a daddy's girl Do you eat anything good at coltons? It's a steak. Hey, can't go wrong there, right? Right That's awesome Well, did you uh, did you get a chance to at least freshen up after laying on that seat down? No You went to do all that just like that? Pretty much, yeah. Yeah That's crazy Dress up, not just to go lacing down Oh, I was probably ready to go eat. Oh, gotcha I told her let's go eat Told her we're looking like we're ready to go eat somewhere in there. So Oh, yeah, awesome. So you didn't change anything before you guys left? I'm sure I put a different shirt on probably, yeah Hey, I would be surprised I would too. It was so hot outside and you were sweating Yeah, I had my What'd you have on? I had just a little t-shirt Oh, what color was that? Gray I think Oh, man, yeah, I don't I would be sprouts and you got all that done outside and then didn't change, right? Oh, yeah, why don't you do that? That's not a whole lot of me. It's like walking Too bad to be back And I ate you to grow water I don't know I feel pretty good. Well, at least you got some stuff done tonight. Fender chicken. Yeah So when you went back Chase, what do you got? Here is where the masterpiece I think of her interview is She's sticking to the things that she knows he's comfortable talking about he lays it all out and It starts having a lot of trouble with changing outfits So this little changing outfits time frame this she she started to just walk along this pathway until the bricks Just started crumbling in this one area. So she knows that there's some red flags right there So the highest point of stress right here is when it comes to his body language And it's when he's talking about not having Uh done a whole lot that requires a change of outfit his legs pull all the way back Into an I can get up out of this chair easier position. That's a long name for that, but let's just keep that His hands pull back into digital flexion again Almost into fists on his legs and he goes into self soothing behavior Just trying to burn off all this excess energy that this sudden spike in adrenaline has caused I think she does a fantastic job right here and it sounds like normal conversation If you're listening to it and it doesn't sound like much That's a good thing if you're hearing an interrogation and you can't tell Then interrogation is going on you're hearing a pro scott. Where you got? All right, I agree agree with you a hundred percent now She's trying to find out if if his wife is going to be able to corroborate what he's What what's going on? That's why she's asking those questions about going out to eat supper And uh changing his clothes and those types of things because she knows she'll be part of that And when they ask her questions, she'll be able to say what were you doing during this time? I was here He was doing this so she's she's gathering that information putting a little basket To to be able to to talk to him about that later on when it comes up Now then she gets right back into what he did next and she's making it so simple and so smooth and so easy She's changed a little bit from her body light from a body language perspective Because now she's starting to look like she's showing interest I'm not so sure that's that's the best thing to do at this point because Once he sees she's really interested in what's happening then he's going to start shutting down again So she's she's aimed a little bit closer to him. She's not leaned in yet She never gets to that point where she's kicking close enough to reach out and touch or anything Which we'll talk about in a few minutes, but she's not all up in his business or anything But she's acting interested So that goes against what she's been doing so far. Maybe part of her plan Maybe what she's used to and and that's how she's doing it because she's getting closer to the part where it's It's going to be time to close in on and close this thing So again, you can you can try to hide your body language and you can try as hard as you want but it's not going to work and you Try to approach panelists if you're watching this if you're a subscriber if you're not subscribed because you'll you'll learn things like this When you're Approaching body language, let's say for the four you haven't been studying it or you're just learning about it approach it this way Look at it and say what's that person's body language trying to tell me Because I may be telling you something or that may person may be telling you something But their body may be something saying something completely different or maybe adding to it So think about not just what they're saying, but what their body language is trying to tell you Take it from that perspective because if you do that You'll have that second bit of of inner dialogue going on for yourself saying What are you really trying to tell me here? And you may learn something and from these things you'll find as if you're a subscriber Some things you'll find on here as you go through our old videos up to now You'll see these things we're talking about and you'll be able to use those in that way of In that approach to talking to someone and trying to figure out what their body language is trying to tell you I think that's really important. So Approach it from that perspective. What is their body language trying to tell me? I think it'll be a game changer for you. Greg. What do you got? Well, you're back to what I said earlier now, Scott What and somebody I know made a really good living off teaching people to be persuasive with their body language We might be in the room and that was interesting. I know you're talking about British dude with the hair everywhere Yeah, it's everywhere So what what your body is doing when you're using your hands and that's trying to persuade somebody or something back to the point And it's the brain wants to persuade what's truth But the body and and and your psyche may be trying to do something else and you'll hijack the hell out of your story So i'm with you there. Let's talk about that asking what the wife would say Something I always say is there really four types of lies. There's omission commission transference and embellishment The hardest two lies to break period Are transference where I take chase's life and turn it into mine Or embellishment where I make the fish this big And the single best tool for breaking both of those lies Is creating a team sport. So if you were fishing, I'm going to go ask your wife about the fish And was it that big or I'm going to ask other people Who was there with you when this happened? And so that's a good way to put some male notice that you're going to cross reference We do it all the time in interrogation. I have two people and I say well, he told me that you said this That's a big ugly thing It's part of a we know all approach and we know all is one of hansharf's kind of sharpian interrogation Whether you call it that or not approaches You got to be really careful when you say we know all because we say things that we believe are true And if you take one step too far you go from we know all that we don't know shit and she almost does that She says you said and he goes I never said that Ding ding and it shows because she's either uncomfortable or she's marking content I've been in interrogations plenty where I'll do something like that like my arm hurts to mark content in the video So I don't have to take a note on something very important because chase you said all the time When you write something down somebody immediately knows that was important, but if I do this They may not so either that or she's feeling Discomfort and insecure and moving around and I think it's insecurity because she realized that he just said I didn't know that but she does a great job of not making a big deal And I think part of that Is this whole naivete thing she's playing she's just kind of Turns right back around and starts talking about clothing and this is non pertinent This is pertinent parading is non pertinent whether it has to do with the storyline or otherwise I'll tell you a way I've used this one very effectively in my past when you've Grabbed and bagged people and you bring them out and had on certain clothing when you capture I walk in with my bag and go hey chase. I think I got what you're captured in here. Tell me what you're wearing Guess what? I'm getting eye movement like all Tomorrow for looking at where you go for visual memory and I'll ask you. Hey, what was in your wallet that kind of stuff? It works wonderfully. So you're getting a baseline. You're getting information Even after having something I think made her very uncomfortable. She flexes and goes right into it. Nice job Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look another universal there isn't an organism on the planet that doesn't do approach and avoid It doesn't matter if you're a blue-green algae a fungus of some sort Even a sulfur-based life form down in the deep volcanoes at the bottom of the ocean and us human beings We have this simple system of approach stuff. That's good You know and move away avoid stuff. That's bad now when it comes to us human beings some complexities get in there You know, but ultimately when we're reading body language, we can start with some really simple systems to go What might this mean, you know and then build the complexity out of it and chase to your point I just totally agree and I think everybody's said the same thing. Basically is those those feet retreat There's the retreat response on this idea of the change of clothing now I don't I'm not listening carefully enough to understand whether there was a change of clothing or not a change of clothing And who suspects what or or whatever? I just don't know but I know it's really important Because the the rhythm of that retreat is very different from some of the other rhythms of Retreat that we've had before It's very pertinent what's going on there. And again, I think it's brilliant that she's got that moment out of him Whether she's seen that moment. I don't know. I suspect she has I suspect she's seeing a lot that's that's going on here So brilliant. Just lovely to see one of those tape replays Well, that's cool Yeah, you're well, you got some stuff done outside Passing time inside. Where's your wife doing? She's still watching tv and Well, what time do I go to dinner? But uh, you know, do you mention get back from dinner or come back from dinner? Fuckin she probably told y'all that I thought somebody had mentioned it earlier like when we were sell out on the road I thought he had mentioned it to somebody whenever he had told us Hey, I don't even know what time Was what time did we get to dinner? You remember no, where'd I go to eat? Coltons. Oh, hey Where are all of my daughters? She's a daddy's girl Do you eat anything good at Coltons? It's a steak Hey, can't go wrong there, right? Right All right That's awesome Well, did you uh, did you get a chance to at least freshen up after laying on that seat down? No I have a feeling Is it if you went to do all that just like that? No Pretty much, yeah Yeah That's crazy Dress up not just to go lacing down Oh, I was probably ready to go eat Oh, gotcha Yeah, so let's go eat Totally looking like you're ready to go eat somewhere in there Oh, yeah Yeah Awesome, so you didn't change her anything before you guys left? I'm sure I put a different shirt on probably, yeah Hey, I would be surprised I would too, I was so hot outside and you were sweating Yeah, I had my Yeah What'd you have on? I would just have a t-shirt Oh, what color was that? Gray I think Oh man, yeah, I would be surprised if you got all that done outside and then didn't change Right Oh, yeah, why don't you do that? That's not a whole lot, I mean it's like vaulting too bad I mean, back, there we go And 80 degree water? I don't know Oh, yeah Feel pretty good Well at least you got some stuff done tonight Fender chicken Oh, yeah So when you went back I mean, that's not a whole lot, I mean it's like vaulting too bad, I mean back, there we go And 80 degree water? I don't know Yeah Feel pretty good Well at least you got some stuff done tonight Fender chicken Yeah So when you went back inside did you have some like Where's that time in between you guys leaving or did you leave pretty quickly? I don't I don't remember Just that I'm tweeting them Lying the seat and going inside and playing the game Do you remember about how long in the time it was pouring in? No Did you ever go back outside? I don't know I don't remember No Did you go anywhere today? Did you ever leave the house tonight? Yeah, we went to But well besides tea No No, I didn't know Maybe you got out and about Suddenly I was like to run errands That's not long dead, okay Yeah, yeah That I know if I had talked to them but I'm sure I'd have heard anything Well, did you see her today? No Yeah, I haven't talked to her, but I haven't heard anything about her Okay Yeah, they look close to you, don't they? Yeah When you were outside today, did you notice anything different or weird going on Or hear anything that was abnormal? No While you were outside laying the seat, stuff like that? No Everything seemed Did you run into anybody by the side? I'd say hi to them No Okay All right When? I'm sure Did you see anybody on the road? Anything like that? Maybe it's a mess, I don't know Maybe anybody was out and about You seen anybody by the side? Where do you get that? No, I'm serious I'm just asking I'm just talking about Not to end the whole up No, let me pull That's it, man Wow, you just killed me right now It's funny messing with the thermostat earlier Well, I might have missed it But actually, I didn't I was going to, but then it started changing things on it Not, I mean, before I touched it, I thought I'd better leave it alone So I asked him I'm going to be back He had moved it up because it was a little cold A little cold It still feels cold, don't it? I'm a little chilly I'm not alive, I'm a little chilly I just have a blanket in my office It's kind of like nature and stuff Do you want some more water? No, we'll get it then Are you sure? Yeah, thank you though No, you're welcome Well, let me go check on their process I'm going to check more That's the best time Well, thank you Are you okay with that? Yeah, that's fine All right, I'll be right back Yes, I apologize ahead of time But I don't do this side of it No, I'm just happy to Hey, it's okay I have to remain silent You don't have to explain it again I need to go talk to him, so I'll be back Chase, what do you got? This right here is a great way to show how important it is to take one of these three forks that are ahead of an interviewer interrogator at this point in the interview You have path one I have a suspect, path two You're a person with vital information and path number three You need to defend against these vital accusations against you So if a conversation reaches this point there's a direct and confident shift in the interviewer's demeanor where you directly face the suspect to use their names Scott's going to talk about this and maybe this video or the next one And at this point, you'll communicate the gravity of the situation You walk them down one of these three paths and I'll summarize them But here's what each one would look like and these are just generalized So in the suspect part they've collected a lot of information here It looks like I'm not really here in the full story and I don't want them jumping to all these conclusions based on that kind of stuff Path number two The vital information holder is addressing the issue saying something like, look, John or Gary, whatever this guy's name is We know this bad thing happened and you're the only one we think that might have information that can point us to where we need to be looking and where we need to be paying attention Path three, the defense of accusation You're saying whatever his name is What is his name? Grant That's it So you're saying, Grant, let me level with you here I know you're a good person and that's frankly why I'm here These people are saying X, Y and Z and you're not the type of person to do that and I want to know what happened here I want to know there's something had to have happened to make this the reason and I want people to know that this is the reason So these are some super generic examples But this is where that could have happened An alternative to this is to leave the room for a bit to let them consider all their options And this is what we're seeing the interviewer doing here But you have to know that if you're in the job of interviewing even if you're in business doing this No matter what line of work you're in no matter what you say before you leave You leaving the room instantly pushes that suspect back into long-term thinking of consequences of confessing consequences of being honest and going into long-term thinking of strategy and narrative and how to be more deceptive So that's what happens when you leave the room whether we like it or not Greg, what do you got? Yeah, the only benefit to leaving a room is you have got to put them in a position to where they have to calculate and weigh So if you give them an option A or B and leave them to work through it then you're pushing them into their head They got to go in their head They can't go outside to chase this point The minute they leave their head the minute they leave that little prison that is their head you've got a problem And I don't mean by that if there's an out if they can see an out on the other side but if I say, how do you think this is going to go? Either you're going to stay here for the rest of your life or when you give them an option it's hard and irrational and they start to rational think then you can walk out of the room give them a minute and come back because I've done that but it's very difficult to your point and it allows them to rationalize things that you don't want them to rationalize What's interesting is she gets a little too pushy here The veil over her threat is very thin and when she pushes him to that point he realizes she's asking a hard question he goes to I don't remember and we'll say often I don't remember is one of the hardest things for an interrogator overcome it takes a certain skill set and I think you need to be a very seasoned interrogator overcome that what you have to do is you have to do this you have to say look I talked to you about birds and chickens and putting out grass seed and watching episodes of TV and now you don't remember this I call BS and then you put them in their place and you start driving but that is a very hard approach now we're back to if my demeanor is naivete going into that hard nose puts me in a place where I can't play naivete again so I've gone down the end of the path and sometimes that forces the use having been an interrogator supervisor that forces an interrogator swap out or that's when you bring back in the bag cop who comes back in and pounds a table screams and yells at spits and she comes back and goes I got in trouble because you did this that works and what I will give this woman absolute credit for is she is a swan she is resilient she moves right back into it she starts to get him to talk again and when she asks about his parents he says did you see them today and she pushes too far one more time and he says what are you getting at but what she has done to now is she is torn off all of this armor that he had put in place with that resistance technique he forgot to go back into resistance he forgot to go back into resistance he actually asked her what are you getting at that's a beautiful thing and when she turns and talks about the T stat the thermostat and he starts talking about that you know that he's forgotten to be resistant may come back to it but she has stripped away all of his defenses at this point Scott what do you got all right this is where he gets tripped up she asked him what he did after feeding the chickens and he says and then she says there wasn't much time before he left did you leave pretty quickly that's when he clams up and he freezes and going back to if she knows that he knows that she knows that he knows what's going on and he can't call her on it once again excuse me and after he asks her about her parents being okay he sort of relaxes but he grabs that cup he moves that cup for what looks like no reason but I think he's actually adapting with that he's trying to get some rid of some of that built up stress and tension and energy because he's just trying to sit there and do nothing so you know if you just try to sit real still by yourself even when you're meditating you get all this stuff sometimes built up and you just have to move around you can't hardly help it so I think he just his brain kind of zizzes a little bit and he grabs that cup and moves it for no reason but I think it's he's adapting at that point then she moves on to ask him about who he may it's who he saw so you see anybody out anything look weird those types of things because she's trying again to get some information to put in that little basket somebody that may be able to remember him being somewhere so they can corroborate his being there or not being there I think that's pretty important then she handles it beautifully when when he asks what she's getting at she assures him it's just small talk that there's nothing going on but there's big intention there that's what's so important and he knows again he knows what's happening but he's trying to play along and this makes his stress go through the roof so you know his brain again just has to be on fire and they're thinking you know at some point I think maybe he must think I've got this because he keeps doing that I think he thinks it's working that's that's the part that's uncomfortable to watch that's almost cringy then when she says I'm gonna go I'm gonna go check on their progress and I'll come back chit chat with you because I don't have anything else to do and that's I mean that's awesome then she leaves and he's just smiling I think that's fantastic she says I have nothing else to do yeah no you don't you have so because you're talking to this guy so you have nothing else to do Mark where do you got yeah brilliant look I hope by hearing all these other possibilities that you're getting around how you could take this that you could understand the skill and the craft that's going on here and the decisions that this interviewer is making along the way that she would know of all the possibilities that she might be able to go down and she's chosen this way and and sure maybe it's the right choice maybe it's the wrong choice we'll find out you know later on but let's focus on just for a moment what it's done to him whether it's the right choice or the wrong wrong choice where is he right now well he says he apologizes for taking the right to remain silent and yet he's been talking all the time now but he thinks he's still been silent I think you're right Scott I think he really does think or he's in certainly at the very best he's in some conflict about has he really managed to keep to his strategy of I'm saying nothing he said it at the start he said look I'm saying nothing and yet he's been talking talking talking and as she leaves he's like listen I'm I've got to apologize for having been brilliant at saying nothing throughout this well well what a fool what a fool at this point one of those tape replays well that's not all about it I mean it's like walking too bad I mean back I don't know can I eat a degree of water I don't know feel pretty good well at least you got some stuff done tonight Fender chicken yeah so when you went back inside did you have some like where's that time in between you guys leaving or did you leave pretty quickly I don't I don't remember just that in between laying the seat and going inside and playing the game do you remember about how how long in the time it was porting that yeah do you ever go back outside I don't know I don't remember did you go anywhere today did you ever leave the house today yeah we went to but well beside seat no no I know maybe you got out and about sometimes I like to run errands it's not long dead okay yeah yeah then I know I've talked to them but I'm sure I've heard anything whole did you say it today and you know yeah I haven't talked to them but I haven't heard anything about them okay yeah they look close to you don't they yeah when you were outside today did you notice anything different or weird going on or hear anything that was abnormal while you were outside laying the seat stuff like that yeah no everything seemed did you run into anybody by surprise say hi no no okay when I'm trying did you see anybody on the road anything like that maybe it's a mess I didn't know maybe anybody was out and about you saying where do you get that no I'm serious I'm just asking just a small thought not to end the whole up no let me tell you that's it man well just to kill me right now slightly messing with the term is that early well I might have missed it but no actually I didn't did you get I was going to but then it started changing things on it not I mean before I touched you I thought I'd better leave it alone so I asked him maybe I took it back and he would move to that because it was a little cold a little cold it still feels cold don't it I'm a little chilly I'm not alive I'm a little chilly but I just haven't like it in the office of any kind of nature and so do you want some more water no I'll do it no are you sure yeah thank you though man you're welcome well let me go check on their process I'm going to check more that does this time well thank you are you okay with that yeah that's fine all right I'll be right back yes I apologize ahead of time that hey no I'll do this slightly no I ain't going to talk it to you hey it's okay I have to remain silent you don't have to explain it get it I need to go talk it so hold me back so what happened when you were on your way home time you all just ran into the road block mm-hmm yeah I wasn't I wasn't there when that part happened they just what they do when you guys ran into them well the guy stopped and said I don't want us to go down Jones Trader Park road I said well I live two houses down here on the right and so let me ask the boss about that he went to the radio for a while or something or anything so what's your name I started Grant Harden and then instead of taking a step out of the car and then they put me in handcuffs and put me in the back of that water car how would you have it the canine one you were talking about yeah and then drag him down and put me in the car when you were comfortable yeah yeah he's a good guy well I he is he's a really good guy he's a good cop I've learned a lot from him or are you we're all in your is it your wife's car the one that she's driving and is it what I'm gonna ask you please forget me no I'm just gonna have to stick back to my yeah I don't know anyway I'm just a good chap I know you are you're fine as you feel I'm very ashamed yeah I think you feel comfortable you don't have to say anything but you're fine but I just think we are really um no you're not making a right you're not making a right you're not making a right that one hey it's just a shame I get it I really do all right Greg what do you got so this time we're back to non-pertenant but these are known facts so if he starts to resist I would do a forward and backward pass I know how he got arrested I know all of those things when I say forward and backward pass when people lie they practice their lie forward they rarely practice their lie backwards so if I say hey what time did you get to the liquor store and somebody's a liquor store okay what time did you leave your house and there's distance between there this comes to mind for when we recently covered then you ask why did it take this long to get from here to here because there's a path in there but if a person's thinking forward they're always going to have all the details that's the reason I always say everybody's known all the stuff we're talking about in the past we just turned it off because it's rude what we do is rude by nature because a person will say they knew their story forward and backward so backward pass take the story apart and you'll find lots of loops even though these are known facts he's still in that resistance posture when she gets down to details about what he was doing look at chase you call it a stop gesture but those emphatic fingers and then silence and he withdraws his feet back into his own space and while his fingers I love the fact he does now we'll call it phantom of the opera because his fingers are spread and he's playing a keyboard so it's just crazy to watch even though these are known facts it means she's inside his brain case now and she has real estate now we've got him where we want him now we'll start to see some change now whether it's fast enough or whether you close or not he's up to you Scott what you got all right I think this is where she shows how focused her listening skills are because after she asks about the car he answers he starts talking and as as soon as he makes that short little grunt sound he stops talking as soon as he makes that short little grunt sound he goes uh she when she because she's just started talking she snaps a shot just really really quiet so I because she's listening she wants him to talk she doesn't want to run over him that almost gave me chills it was so fast but what he hasn't said in here as what we talked about earlier he hasn't said I'm not going to talk anymore I want a lawyer because they're not over I know there's questions about ah maybe they've they've gone too far they should we discussed this earlier about maybe you know they they should leave them alone or shouldn't continue questioning but they're not badgering him maybe that's why they sent her in because she's just sitting there shooting with them there's there's nothing happening that looks and sounds like you can't say she's badgering him because she's sitting there goofing around with her fingers and just talking and laughing and he's laughing he doesn't look badgered he doesn't look like anything's really bothering him that's his that's the problem there he doesn't look like it's bothering him so he should have said I'm not talking anymore I want a lawyer then that would be the game changer for him Mark what do you got yeah this is a moment because we've seen all kinds of little abrupt things we've we've seen bits of this we've seen little sounds coming out of his mouth but we haven't seen anything where it's where it has that abrupt guttural sound to it and the movement and the silence afterwards that freeze situation where we've got this confluence this collision all at the same time what would be interesting is to experience that in the room because I think the sound that he makes there and the abruptness there would probably have on any of us and you watching now would have quite a big reaction in your stomach so I think I think Scott you're right she is listening there and I think as well the sound that he made there and the movement that he made would stop her as well to work out what's going on here because something's going on which is even bigger than anything that we've seen before now I can't quite remember what they're talking about or that'd be interesting to go but well you'll be able to go back won't you and work out what was being talked about there and how is that so pertinent that he's gone way out of his baseline a confluence of gestures and sounds that we haven't seen before Chase what are your thoughts on this one yeah I agree with you guys the moment you see his hands come into the stop gesture you know something's about to happen in this video so watch for this in any conversation that you're in even if you see the fingers go all the way to the maximum like that no matter what somebody's hand is doing if it's on their leg hanging out on their side you're about to encounter some kind of what I would maybe say a conversational roadblock so if you see this there's 11 ways that I teach to overcome this little conversation stopping devices that you will very often see in interrogations let's go over five quick examples super fast ways that you can overcome that objection or stop the conversation the moment you see one of these stop gestures and start on a new direction the first one is mimicking you mimic the gesture in a slightly more pronounced way so that they see that you're about to stop your train of thought and then you can speak for just a moment it gives you a perfect window of opportunity to talk the second one is distraction and this is just instantly introducing a completely unrelated topic like why McDonald's ice cream machines are always broken it doesn't even matter what you want to talk about or a question to throw them off balance and reset you want to reset their frame of mind and divert their attention right there next would be reframing and this is just immediately redescribing things in a more positive light that makes them more honorable or a better person fourth would be empathy and this is just communicating that you know how they feel and reducing their discomfort by doing that and finally I think one of the more basic ones is pace and lead so this is just acknowledge that they're discomfort they're experiencing discomfort then subtly shift the conversation towards a born neutral or positive topic and you can combine all of these things to make it a lot more powerful but also keep in mind that these tools are super basic and some advanced training will give you more than you could ever imagine it'll make what I just said that's extremely powerful you'll realize it's kind of a kindergarten level as powerful as it is before we go to the next video I'd just like to say to everybody that when Chase said McDonald's ice cream machines are always broken that was simply opinion I'd like to say that that's McDonald's right now simply opinion he and the behavior panel have no data around that certainly when I visited McDonald's ice cream machines they've always worked brilliantly just thought we should say that I've never gotten ice cream from there have you guys gotten ice cream from there? when I was a kid and the ice cream machines worked brilliantly one of those tape replays so what happened when y'all were on their way home time you know just ran into the roadblock mm-hmm yeah I wasn't there when that part happened they just, what'd they do when you guys ran into them? well maybe I stopped and said and then I don't want us to go down to Jones Trader Park Road and I said well I live two miles down here on the right and so let me ask the boss about that anyway, you know it's a radio for a while or something and then I said what's your name? I said Grant Harden and then he said can you step out of the car and then he put me in handcuffs and put me in the back of that one car I would have the canine one you were talking about yeah and then drag hung up and put me in the car way more comfortable yeah yeah he's a good guy right he is he's a really good guy he's a good cop I've learned a lot from him or you were y'all in your is it your wife's car? the one that she's driving? and is it a is it? I'm gonna ask you to please forget me no you're not gonna look I'm just gonna have to stick back to my yeah I don't know anyway I'm just a tip-tap oh no you are you're fine if you feel that I'm not very sweet to you yeah I think the company don't have to say anything but you're fine but I just think me I'm really but I'm just no you're not being rude you're not being rude you're not being rude no hey just a tip-tap I get it I really do do you have any any cool cars other than I'll have to set it okay maybe and I just I'm just no you're fine I'm just curious you're good to talk to my I didn't know she I got a headache and that oh Tom can we see if I can find you someone? no that's all right I'm sure I can we got a pharmacy around here somewhere I'm just wondering what's going on? well if I'm gonna be charged with something or we'll do something on Monday that's what I'm wondering no I have a dentist I have a dentist how are you telling me I'm fine all right I know I know I need it I'd rather talk about cars than you I know me too why'd rather talk about cars so any cool cars other than I'll have to set it anything fancy I'm just um what do you call it the paper yeah no it's great why don't I talk about cars you can talk about some brands no I just don't want it I'm just gonna write do you want me to go away no well you're fine well I'm a talker you talk you talk I talk yeah you talk then it's not fun to talk to yourself you gotta enjoy your conversation with someone I just feel no I get it no I get it if they make you uncomfortable we don't have to talk about it well I just feel that yeah I'm comfortable whatever you're doing here no I get it I get it so I'm just trying and I want to apologize but I'm just gonna stick to my lines why are you concerned right I guess that's the main question why are you here why am I here do you have any idea why am I here yeah do you have any idea why you're here when you guys tell me I will nobody's told me anything when I sat in that police car for a long or deputy's car for a long time nobody told me anything I just didn't know let's go all right Mark what do you got oh look whatever whatever was happening in that last video it's changed him significantly because now he's fishing for information so look we can say all that we like about you know maybe the interviewer should have gone one way or the other way and when we'd be correct or wrong or you know who knows who knows but certainly she's changed his demeanor she's changed his tactic which I think is fantastic Greg what do you got on this one yeah I remember in the very beginning I said your job is to push them into the cell that is their brain she has done that is what you're seeing Mark and when you're in the room and you're interrogating you feel it I mean it's a hard thing to describe to you but there's a fundamental change in the way the person starts to respond and you can see it here what happens is his threshold for what is a threat becomes much lower much much lower and that's because all that stuff he thought was going to work isn't now he's internally focused every time you pay attention to people like that they'll start dropping down their eyes will start dropping down load right and left and in the old days it would have called out the kinesthetic plane where a person's down here moving around and thinking through and trying to figure it out and you can see it so she does two brilliant things the most important question she has asked to now to now period is this do you want me to go away because when he says no guess what now he's obligated in a conversation he has now created a social contract with you and because his whole demeanor is I don't want to be rude she's now put him at odds with self he's inside his own head I love it it's a beautiful thing I stay because you said it's okay and then she goes after him she goes for the jugular and she says why are you here now that's been the thing that nobody has brought up to now it's been kind of casual kind of quiet Chase you said it earlier I would have said what the hell am I doing here never does it so she goes after it and then she swings that foot that's what kids do so it's kind of a naïve tailor enforcement and it's a powerful one Scott what do you got yeah she's doing such a great job but this is where I get some giggles actually because when she says he's wondering what's going on and will I be charged with something when he says that then she keeps goofing around with her finger like she's just looking at a fingernail she says why did you do something did something happen today oh man it's just awesome then she gets all giggling and talking about cars I mean he I don't know I'd love to be just get a some kind of picture what's going on his brain at that point because it's got to just be freaking him out I thought that was just beautiful and then she lays out though why are you here question like you were saying Greg and that lets him know she's not leaving but she asks if she wants if she if he wants her to stop talking but but then he continues with with the play with you know want to know why he's here about you know what's going on why am I here so I don't know I just thought that I just got so caught up in that first part I couldn't really pay attention to much more because it was it was just so good it's just like I don't know it's like a really what are y'all saying football good play or baseball whatever it is don't do sports chase what you got no sports here either as far as whether she's leading him down a path or not she should be questioning him or not I'm not an attorney maybe Rob who we've been on with before Law and Lumber could comment down here on that I don't know but this this is one of the first questions of a pure interrogation if you're going off of this standard training that most police receive in the United States is do you know why you're here do you know why we're in this room together and she uses this and I think it's brilliant that she's not just using his agreement of you know I'm not I'm going to be silent and all this stuff she's using his identity he sees himself as a person who's kind and who just wants to hang out with her and be nice and all of this so an amateur will leverage your ideas against you a professional will leverage your identity against you and that is precisely what we're seeing here she's using identity one of those tape replays do you have any unequal cars other than I'll have to say that forgive me again I've just I'm just I don't know I'm not just curious you're good to talk to the one I didn't know she I got a headache and I was can you see if I can find you something no that's all right I'm sure we got a far because you're on here so why are you I'm just wondering what's going on well if I'm going to be charged with something or we'll do something every day that's what I'm wanting to know right if it is well I can't tell you I'm fine I know I know I need it I'd rather talk about cars than you I know me too I'd rather talk about it so any cool cars other than the hottest of it anything fancy I'm just what do you call it a paper man that's great why don't we talk about cars you can talk about something if that makes sense no I just I'm just going to write do you want me to go away no I'm going to be all fine well I'm going to talk first you talk you talk I talk you talk then it's not fun to talk to yourself you're going to enjoy your conversation with someone I I feel no I get it I don't know I get it if it makes you uncomfortable we don't have to talk about that well I just feel yeah I'm comfortable whatever you're doing here yeah no I get it I get it I'm just trying I mean I want to apologize but I'm just going to stick to my rights why are you concerned right I guess that's the main question why are you here why am I here do you have any idea why am I here yeah do you have any idea why you're here when you guys tell me I will nobody told me anything when I said in that police car for a long or deputy's car for a long time nobody told me anything I just didn't know well didn't know well sometimes you gotta wonder if somebody has to tell you first like if you know something I don't what the reason y'all asked to not see this yeah okay that's kind kind of what you have to look at it sometimes not all the time but sometimes that's why you know we're in the sector chamber on Katelyn here you want to just talk to you about if you had what you have done today if you had seen something happen witness something happen you know like you said something happened today it's something really bad and if you witnessed it then it's something we need to talk about because people witness to you so but I'm like it'd be a chance to talk you know what I mean like I'd rather hear your side of the story versus anything else except me everybody just starts all right especially you're a good you're a good guy you're a good person so I don't know I feel like everybody should have that chance till their side especially something bad happened I don't want so many good reactions I just want to know about you to this point I mean I worked with you so like you helped me you know had my back in it in the situation so it would be nice to understand from you but from your new point why you'd be here what happened or did you see something happen or you put in a situation kind of walked me through it but that's your choice right everybody has a choice you have to be the one willing to put it out there feel like you've done this profession long enough you know things go you're a good guy you're not a drug dealer not a child molester or not you know anything like what you dealt with what I dealt with but I think today you could have you've dealt with a bad situation I just don't know what happened sure a lot of people are gonna want to know you know want answers especially your family not I do I'm gonna help you that's the bad part I want to help you figure it out it's all I can do is sit here and say hello listen and work it out with you figure it out together but you have to be willing to talk to me about I'm a pretty rough person pretty straight person you know just that I know it's uncomfortable I know it's uncomfortable and heartbreaking sitting in the room by yourself with people that you've worked with in the past knowing the situation but like I said I wasn't there you're the only one who can kind of throw in the blanks at this point am I right you don't have to talk to me but I'm well and well the same all right Greg what do you got yeah this is a good one because she's back to that childlike leg swing and she's doing up talk at the end and when she says well sometimes she's reinforcing his spider flights up you can hear his breathing if you listen to this which I think is phenomenal but it's deeper than respiration that's that's here often we see people starting to move into that kinesthetic we were talking about earlier we'll hear heavier heavier breathing you'll see it there she's starting this P&E up where she's talking about him as a father figure and all that and then futility all all all interrogations end in one approach and that's futility it is the single hardest approach to teach because people that are trying to understand futility will often say resistance is futile like there's something off Star Trek I used to put a red mark on anybody I was teaching when they would say those words that say back out now go back and go through the whole channel again because it's just not there what she's doing this take what we typically do in these interrogations when we get to that point is we take logic and feelings and we drive a person into a point where their logic and their feelings are at war and then we simply tell them there's no way you're going to get out of this how you feel is not going to have any effect on the facts and you drive them to a point once you've got them in their brain case and they're working in there then you give them silence and allow them to stew if she does one thing poorly it's silence she needs to do a better job of silence than it she is doing here her conversation however is moving him into the right space to go into pre confession and if you don't believe that look at that right eye accessing downright that we associate with emotion and a quick snap of his head to try to come out of it because he's keenly aware what's happening he's starting to feel it she does say something I would not say here and that's to remind him that other people are looking at him because what happens when we're doing this we want to move to close I want to lean over I want to put my hand on you when you start to soften I want you to feel like it's just the two of us nobody else in the world nobody else in the world knows about this and one of our favorite people says no one confesses in a crowd and that's Dr. Phil I think he's dead on when you put other people in the room the theater for one goes out the window and you lose that opportunity and I think she has to recover from that chase what you got yeah you cover his body language really well and there's some dissociation going on here she uses she uses a tactic of dissociation the matter of fact I'm going to break down from a pro level looking down at this interrogation everything she's saying and doing and what that technique is called just so you can maybe look these up if interrogation something that's fascinating or interesting to you let's go through a couple of phrases that she uses you might have seen something this is projection that she says people witnessed you which Greg was just mentioning this is potentially a mind virus method because she did not specifically say what was witness it's not perfectly executed but still very effective I'd rather hear your side of the story this is appeal to ego and appeal to self and especially appear to self preservation you're a good guy this is socialization of the issue and then she says if something bad happened that's minimization so she's minimizing what happened then she's saying I want to know what brought you to this point this is asking why instead of the if so ensuring that this is about character and reputation if you were put in a situation she uses that phrase if you were put in a situation great phrase by the way this is projection and rationalization that's the technique going on there you're not a drug dealer and blah blah blah this is appeal to ego and character this is also minimizing of the offense based on who committed the offense then she says a lot of people want to know x y and z more socialization she says I know it's uncomfortable this is an appeal to empathy verbal pacing she's pacing exactly what he's feeling what's going on then she's saying it's important we need to fill in the blanks here more socialization then she says I'm willing to listen this is an appeal to stress and anxiety whoever this woman is Nakona I'd love to hire you and I actually mean that so get a hold of me get a hold of us however you can I think all of us would like to have you on the show either way I'd like to have you on my team so that's all I got Scott rega all right this is where she gives him a chance to say he knows what's happened but only saw it from it from a distance you know and he doesn't take that he doesn't do that it's a great question it's a fantastic technique to get someone to admit they were at least at the crime scene or are aware of it and he knows he can't do that because he's already said earlier you know you know you know why am I here what am I you know I need to know or not why am I here but he was wanting to know what happened and so this would in some way connect him to that to the crime scene which is what she's trying to do there which is which is a great move and then she tells him people saw him at the crime scene and this presses him to at least say he saw something but didn't but didn't do it didn't have anything to do with it but he doesn't go that road either he doesn't didn't take that either and then she tells him he's a good person and quite often as an interrogator you'll tell the person what a great person they are you know they are and they're in your heart of hearts you know they're a good person because you recognize that you've seen it a thousand times I don't mean to laugh at that but you you tell them you've seen that you know it looks like they're a great person and that you're there to help them and so she says I want to help you because you helped me and that's what I want to do we can we can go through and do this we can do this together in other words so I think I think she's doing all the things she should be doing but he's still trying that thing where I don't know what's happening although he hasn't said why am I here what's going on why don't y'all tell am I under arrest I don't think so because I think I know that and he doesn't go down that road he's not been angry once no matter what's going on and one of the tactics you use when you're talking to let's say at a bank or at some company and there's a bunch of people there and there's some money missing or something's missing or there's something's not right and you talk to all these people you separate them all you talk to them one at a time like on a Saturday or Sunday where there's a game going on so they're going to be mad when they get there and they're going to want to tell on the person they think did it you talk to them as you're talking to them they'll be mad they'll tell you they're mad and if they don't tell you there you see you look a little upset to me but yeah I'm upset because I'm down here I have to talk about this and I didn't have anything to do and so it doesn't mean that person is innocent doesn't mean they're guilty but it puts you a couple of bricks in the pile of this person may not have done it that's also going to be easier for you to get them to tell you who they think did it because a lot of times a lot of the people who worked that will have a pretty good idea who did whatever it was that was wrong depending on the company and what kind of company it is if it's a bank or if it's a some big business place but so I think that that's a great tactic for that kind of thing Mark what do you got yeah so it's brilliant what she's doing here she's she's delivering the archetype of the child because she's going to associate that child with a child that he knows later on so I think you were right right up the the start scottish is is whether she knows it or not she's going to go down this avenue of associating with the daughter via the archetype of the child why is it the archetype of the child well it's that it's that movement children don't fit anything they don't fit environments unless that environment has been absolutely made for them and children move all the time adolescents don't once they move from child to adolescent they start to moderate how their bodies move but children they just move all if they're not moving they're asleep essentially so so they move all the time and they don't fit anything of the environment because adults have made the environment for adults and that's what we've got there a leg that's moving all the time and doesn't fit the chair and you know whether this is unconscious or conscious to her I think the ploy is is that he's going to make an association with that child because that's the nature of archetypes we all know them you've been a child you know children if you don't you haven't been alive you're not a human being you're not watching this right now if that's not true of you the other thing I love that she's doing is is giving him this idea of you saw something you were put in a situation allowing him to get closer to the crime just close giving him the offer of being able to put himself just that little bit closer because if he says something there she can then unwind that he doesn't he doesn't take the offer but it's a good offer she also gives him something to move away from as well you're not a drug dealer you're not a child molester shows so she's putting up little nudges and attractors there because it's a complex situation and in complex situations you just want to give people little nudges or little attractors so she's attracting him to you saw something you know you you you were put in a situation little attractor for him to creep closer to the crime and some nudges away you don't want to be seen as a child molester you don't want to be seen by this so why don't you mark yourself out as something else than that I think it's quite masterful what's going on there I like it like you Chase like everybody here I'd love to speak to her to see what her thought process is one of those tape replays well sometimes you gotta wonder if somebody has to leave first like if you know something I don't what reason y'all are asking I see what you're saying yeah okay that's kind of kind of what you have to look at it sometimes not all the time but sometimes that's why you know one detective chamber on came in here you want to just talk to you about if you had what you have done today if you had seen something happen witness something happen you know like you said something happened today it's something really bad and if you witnessed it then it's something we need to talk about because people witness to you so but I'm like it'd be a chance to talk you know what I mean like I'd rather hear your side of the story versus anything else except me everybody deserves that right especially you're a good you're a good guy you're a good person so I don't know I feel like everybody should have that chance till their side especially if something bad happened I don't want so many dimensions I just want to know about you at this point I mean I worked with you so like you helped me you know had my back in it in the situation so it would be nice to understand from you but from your viewpoint why you'd be here what happened or did you see something happen or you put in a situation kind of walked me through it but that's your choice right everybody has a choice you have to be the one willing to put it out there I feel like you've done this profession long enough you know things go you're a good guy you're not a drug dealer or a child monster or not you know anything like what you dealt with what I dealt with but I think now you could have you've dealt with a bad situation I just don't know what happened I'm sure a lot of people are gonna want to know you know what answers especially your family not I do I want to help you that's the bad part I want to help you figure it out it's all I can do is sit here and say hello listen and work it out with you figure it out together but you have to be willing to talk to me about I'm a pretty rough person pretty straight people I see you just that I know it's uncomfortable I know it's uncomfortable and heartbreaking sitting in the room with people that you've worked with in the past knowing the situation but like I said I wasn't there you're the only one who can kind of throw in the blanks at this point am I right you don't have to talk to me but I'm well and well listening I'm well and well listening we all make mistakes we all get up and put in positions we're all human we all react a certain way we all have emotions sometimes we overreact sometimes we're put in situations we don't want to get put in like I'd rather you know have met you again outside having coffee instead of seeing you for a second that I'm in here I think you just made a mistake today or something you made a mistake today and I think you know what happened I just want you to help me understand that because I really do I want to understand what happened I think you know what I'm talking about I think you know that some things are going to come out I want to be able to say on your side and say hey this is what happened he was up front he was honest and he explained it and he cooperated because he needed a lawyer yeah you're talking about me I think honestly in general and one who can make that call that I think you're an honest man I think you've been an honest man I think what's the rest of it I think I'm just going to be quiet you're quiet aren't you talking no I'm serious though I think you're an honest man I think okay Mark where do you got yeah did you make a mistake today or somebody made a mistake today she's given a lot of options with that did you make a mistake today or did somebody make a mistake today it is the option for him to go yeah I made a mistake or for him to go no no no I saw that person make a mistake or even the option to make the somebody not his body or not his mind there's the option there for him to go it was a part of me that made that mistake so there's a lot more options in there than we might see at first glance what's brilliant is he says does he need a lawyer does so he already references you know departs himself so it's worked it's worked because he creeps up on and goes does he need a lawyer and then he goes me so so vicariously he's got into that position of do I need a lawyer you know again there's something masterful that's happening there I'm not sure whether she wanted him to go to do I need a lawyer at this point because my understanding would be it puts her in a position I think which is not so good as she was in but nonetheless that that slight of mouth that was done there was was really quite exceptional Scott what do you go on this one a slight of mouth that's pretty good I'll use that but I didn't make that one up oh that was that was Diltz I believe I think Robert Diltz was it Diltz yeah okay that's good don't know Diltz read some of Diltz's books fantastic yeah okay now she's going and she's gone on to the we all make mistakes thing you're a good person but I get it you know we all make mistakes and everybody makes mistakes that's one of the things you do because you got to say we're all everybody's the same we're all doing this everybody has these kind of problems the severity softening she's creating here is really good it's really like nothing's really happened everyone's who talked about what's happened but you know it's just a mistake whatever it is then he goes back to being really really still and he's focusing still focusing on his I'm innocent body language and it's hilarious because he thinks that's that's what he's supposed to do and if he was innocent like we talked about before there'd be so many things that would tell us that he might not be not that he's innocent but he might not be the person that did it or probably wasn't because the way he's because what is body language is saying like I said earlier you want to say if you're not a subscriber go ahead and subscribe because you'll learn all these things because you want to look at it as what is this person's body language trying to tell me so and then when she asks oh then he asks if the guy she's talking about needs a lawyer I think she handles that brilliantly because she pauses and then she has a long pause like she's thinking about she says but she may have been because she may not have been ready for that one she said honestly you're the only guy that can make that call but that's that really is all she can say at that point you know and again he doesn't say I don't want to talk anymore I want a lawyer so keep that in mind they're not badgering him here and then she continues what a great guy is he scratches his face and he shakes his head they waves his hand and says I'm just going to be quiet he knows he's he's as he's thought about all this he's like dang it I shouldn't have said anything I should have just kept my mouth shut I should have been quiet should I think he's starting to regret all the things he's been talking about and he knows what a tough spot he's in that's part of the problem too that's making the stress rise and again he knows what she's doing she knows he knows he knows she knows he knows that sounds weird but it's all true that's beginning to show up more and more in his body language when as the stress goes up Greg what do you got? let's talk about pre-confession body language it's a known thing and what happens is a person will ball up they'll lock up typically they'll get quiet they'll go inside their head and then as they open as they blossom open is when they confess there's pre-confession usually a chin will drop to cover their throat looks familiar eyes are probably down right down left as they think about what this means to them emotional think about what this means to them rationalize what's happening trying to figure out what to do they're having an internal conversation and the emotional impact we can see it we know what's happening well the thing he's not done is ball up but that's because he's doing all of this we're seeing him slide almost into pre-confession I think he's in the beginnings of it when that happens there's a handful of things you really need to do to be effective one move in closer the person needs to feel like there's only you even there are cameras everywhere get confessions all the time and the camera's right there and the guy knows it but when you get in close they forget Chase you were saying it earlier about being intimate but I don't think you use those words but that's the word I would use it gets to be very intimate it becomes about you and the other person you lower your volume because then it sounds like it's just the two of you it might even be a whisper you slow your cadence because slowing your cadence is how people speak when they're emotional and you change your vocabulary she does a really good job of giving 10 seconds of silence but it could have used a little more and then what you do is when I mean change your vocabulary all thought words go out the window all thought words what you want to do is use words like hope feel, believe, want, care all of those kinds of things honesty those kinds of words those feeling words start to then tap into this person and make them feel even more trapped she does a good job of that she's got him down to the point and I love Mark he brought it up that he's talking about himself in the third party that's good he's disassociating but as importantly when he gets down to honest when she's saying honest he's grunting that's a signal to close that space this is a prime opportunity this is like fishing and you now have a bite it's time to set the hook and it takes some effort Scott or Chase what do you got? I think it would have been great if she would have paid off one of the cops outside to knock on the door and just and just right she steps out but right as the door shuts he says something like it was we found that battery operated security camera you need to take a look at this and then she goes back in there with some maybe some bait questions after that that would have been so cool to watch but this whole thing is a master class this is exactly what Greg described pre-confession behavior the lack of confession I don't think it's her fault this is a former police chief who's probably seen a lot of cases go down this way and in these critical moments like this especially in interrogation it is so important to know the deep psychology of who you are talking to so I've written behavior profiling books about this which I wrote one of them that's pretty recent as a deep behavior profiling manual that could be done on anybody in less than six minutes and I really dive in how important it is to understand deep-seated needs fears and insecurities of the person that you're dealing with I'm not trying to say it would have dramatically changed this outcome here but it definitely makes a tremendous difference at the ending of an interview or interrogation or conversation when you're using these the right psychological techniques from the very beginning that makes the difference so you start the right way at the beginning because I know the deep psychology who I'm talking to the ending is dramatically different one of those tape replays I'm on the list and I'm on the dark we all make mistakes we all get up and put in positions we're all human we all react a certain way we all have emotions sometimes we overreact sometimes we're put in situations we all want to get put in like I rather you know have met you like getting outside having coffee sort of seeing you you've been sitting down in here I think you just made a mistake today or somebody made a mistake today and I think you know what happened I just want you to help me understand that because I really do I want to understand what happened I think you know what I'm talking about I think you know that some things are going to come out I want to be able to stay on your side and say hey this is what happened he was up front he was honest and he explained it and cooperated because you need a lawyer yeah yeah you're talking about me I think honestly in general and when you can make that call that I think you're an honest man I think you've been an honest man I think who are you up to the rest of the list I'm just going to be quiet you're going to be quiet aren't you talking no I'm serious though I think you're an honest man I think married pretty but the way I look at it is you're a man man men face their mistakes and they end up to them mm-hmm man they figure out what happened and figure out how to solve it and move on I mean I think you know just as well as I do people who you know that they've done something wrong or witnessed something wrong it's kind of like a way to lift it off their chest you automatically feel better or at least in my experience I feel better I'm listening I'm just yeah I want to understand like I said I'm I'm honestly here to help you I don't want you to understand that I wouldn't spend my time in here with you but I didn't honestly think that you were a good person and that something happened today that needs to be explained did you make a mistake today we don't have to verbally answer you don't want to would you like your daughter to admit if she made a mistake she's a good man and that's how you raise your daughter might not what they expect me to do the same thing see it was raised the same way and I honestly want to be there help your daughter understand after you help me understand I honestly feel like you want to talk to me and explain it how do you want to be here well um hopefully not very long I don't want to come and get it I guess not a wrestling for something I don't know can't even know if something happened today how can you detain me why it's not an investigation what does that mean means they're still looking into everything and honestly and yeah I apologize but I just gonna close my eyes oh I get that it's okay all right Greg what do you got yeah she appeals to his honor which again is pride and ego up and at this time in the interrogation that can be a double-edged sword when you're this close to pre-confession what can happen is it can remind the person about all the ramifications and loss of face so you got to be really careful when you bring up honor she also says honestly more than one time which tells me she's starting to feel a little stressed and she's heating up and she still stays fairly resilient through all that here's the second most important question she asks in the entire thing did you make a mistake today followed by 15 seconds of silence chase you brought up last time she'd ask or given him if maybe you did Scott she'd given him the opportunity to say you made a mistake but following it with 15 seconds of silence puts a tremendous amount of pressure one of the things we know about psychology of capture being locked up is everything becomes black and white and everything becomes about you we're in that space where everything's about him now now's the time she needs to move in put her hand on his knee get close he's grunting again his stress indicators are clear in his hands she's got him right on the edge of personal extinction that honor question is a personal extinction question and what I call personal extinction have for 25 maybe more than that when I was in the army teaching is a person has on a note card mental note card somewhere who they are if I ask each of you who you are you're probably four qualities you identify yourself with and that's cool until I go one two three and then hold the fourth one up when you get a person there you get them to personal extinction and that personal extinction piece is why people are willing to commit treason why people are willing to do almost anything to get out of it because they can't take that it is literally the destruction of self and she's getting him close but she let him off the hook and look there's no chase you said it best very few people get the level of interrogation training we're talking about I mean I've been doing this since I was in my 20s this is a young woman doing this interrogation and doing a great stellar job of this so when you hear us we're pointing out nuances and this is a hard interrogation imagine bringing one of us in the room and interrogating us very different from capturing average guy on the street and bringing him in especially when the guy knows the law knows what he can get away with knows what interrogation is like and probably even knows all the players chase what you got yep I agree with you completely and she's saying this you're a man men face up to their mistakes just appealing to masculinity here and he's sitting on the edge right there he is so ready to go that it made me excited watching this today because Scott's been building this crap up for like the last four days and I haven't watched it until today so because Scott was so excited talking about this and this is why I think this video is what I felt that excitement watching she is controlling her excitement and her emotions so incredibly well here too and so many interrogators get too excited when they get to this point and they also run out of monologue that's another mistake a lot of interrogators make they just do this one little paragraph monologue and then they don't know what else to say they stop talking so they don't know they should just automatically go back and just rephrase that same monologue over and over again like she's been doing right here in one of the most perfect examples I've ever seen so if you're watching this I'd like to have you on my team remotely even if it's part-time and we'd like to have you here on the show talk about this interrogation if you want to Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I'm excited by this because it allows me to analyze probably too deeply quite frankly but that's like what else am I going to do today and that's maybe why I'm here what I love about this is yes, she pushes that social compliance around you know the ideals of what a man should be like you know facing their mistakes and moving on you know it's a lovely ideal that she puts forward there but then she goes for I want to help your daughter understand after you help me understand and she's put him in the archetype of the father and she's placed herself in the archetype of the daughter and the child and the daughter and that relationship there and that's really powerful because not only do we know or she knows he has a daughter it's been talked about throughout but she probably knows this before she goes in there but also she would understand I think consciously or unconsciously that all of us have mothers and fathers now we may have not known our mothers and fathers but biologically we have them and if we weren't close to them or we never knew them you know many psychologists of some sorts would say we went out to find those archetypes for ourselves we're always in relation to what you know some psychologists would say is the anima and the animus that ideal of what should the father be and the mother be in terms of us growing up I mean it's pretty depth psycholic well it is depth psychology that's exactly what it is but my hope I would love that she has some inkling of an understanding of this as she's doing this because it's so deftly done that either it suggests she really knows what she's doing or archetypes are absolutely real and she doesn't consciously know what she's doing either way I think I get proved correct Scott what do you got on this one all right we're like Greg was talking about we're starting to see her adapt a little bit more a lot more actually as she gets deeper into to moving toward getting him to talk you know so she's getting your eye chase she's getting a little excited there and trying to trying to hold it back which I think she does a great job of and when she says did you make a mistake today and then she tells him that he doesn't have to verbally answer she got a non-verbal answer because he didn't say anything he froze and during that 15 seconds that's where I think she missed the shot because I think that's when she could have because the way he's been and for my my impression of this he's he's he wants to be good to her he wants to be nice to her he's trying to be nice to her and his god he can't help it he wants to do something that's when she should have like Greg was talking about lean forward and put her hand on his knee and said look man I listen to me I understand we all make mistakes and it's okay and I'll help you get through this be me and you I promise you I promise you I'll go through this with you I will be there with you I think if she had done that he would just puked it all up and told her everything but she still and to add to that she does like Mark was talking about as well she she talks about how he helped her so she wants to help his daughter it's right there you know it's right there and of course we can look at this now and say she you know she had as it was coming at her you know we'd have to duck out of the way to miss that shot but I I think maybe with a couple more years of experience a few more years maybe she would see that coming early on but then again like Greg was saying earlier maybe she isn't she isn't trained specifically in interrogation for this as she hasn't been that will blow my mind because she's done this so well that's why Chase I was so excited about it because when you said what are we doing this week because we were in another town all of us together and Chase said what are we what are you doing I said oh man wait till you see this it's beautiful it's beautiful this the first guy comes in he tries to talk to this guy to talk and can't get anything out of then this woman comes in and sits down and she's like so what are you doing you know just starts talking to him and he just start and he just starts yapping oh it's beautiful as you all have just seen so that's that's what Chase is talking about the excitement was about it was beautiful well what I love about this thing is if you've been in an interrogation room you know how this feels this feels just like sitting in the room and feeling all that tension yeah you can't reproduce this yeah it's a buzz know what I wish you would have said when it comes to just the amazing example you've set to your daughter set for your daughter up to this point how we deal with this problem is temporary how you react to it right now is permanent yeah yeah well and quite frankly you know the world is going to know what you said today exactly right because then you've got him at odds with self and she does a pretty damn good job of locking him down at odds with self though oh yeah goes this next piece I give her a lot of credit I think guys with all that with all of that said there's every chance that nobody would be able to get him I mean nobody should oh yeah I mean his policy should be it's my policy if I mean you know if I go to the station like my policy is always have a lawyer you know and I'm saying nothing and I got a lawyer I got guys I'll say this out loud I say it all the time when I every time I've done court TV every time I've done something if you get arrested get an attorney and people always say what if I'm innocent especially if you're innocent oh yeah because this system works and you're seeing a guy who has been exposed to interrogation a guy who's been exposed to law enforcement who still is falling because he's down into internalization now she's got him inside his head could somebody maybe win maybe but again this is a very complex one yeah and I know for people who run into interrogation we're just geeking out on this and we do this every now and then we'll find one and just get all up in it but it was so exciting to watch that they just creeping closer and closer and closer like here it comes man oh anyway well that brings up a point if you're watching this far and you're not subscribed what are you waiting for yeah yeah come on in the water's fine one of those tape replays very pretty but the way I look at it is you're a man man men face their mistakes and they end up doing man they figure out what happened and figure out how solve it and move on I mean I think you know just as well as I do people who can admit they've done something wrong or witnessed something wrong it's kind of like a way it lifts me off their chest you automatically feel better or at least in my experience I feel better I'm listening I'm just yeah I'm understand like I said I'm I'm honestly here to help you and I want you to understand that I wouldn't spend my time in here with you but I didn't honestly think that you were a good person and that something happened today that needs to be explained do you make a mistake today we don't have to verbally answer you don't want to would you mind the honor to admit if she made a mistake you're a good man and that's how you raise your daughter and that's what they supposed to do the same thing see it was raised the same way and I honestly want to be there help your daughter understand after you help me understand I honestly feel like you want to talk to me and explain it how many would know being here well um hopefully not very long I don't know I get it I guess not a wrestling for something I don't know can't even know oh did something happen today how can you detain me why it's not going investigation what does that mean means they're still looking into everything and honestly I apologize but I just kind of close my eyes oh I get it it's okay I'm gonna get some water back yeah that's all right no I'm gonna go get some oh you're gonna get I'm sorry all right I'll give you all that I'm gonna go get some water okay you want me to take your pack with me just in case you want I can raise them yeah that's fine no I don't worry about it I'm not being no I don't want it hey what's that I'm walking that way anyways I'll get you some more you might hope you stay wait a little bit for a fresh shit I'll be right back thank you that scares me every time I just said I don't know I don't get it well what was back to air I am what's back is before thank you yeah of course you must have been no I don't know before this was not locked and so people was able to lock that door and like if you forgot to lock it was when you started talking like people were walking on the other time but hey my hoots all right Mark what do you got love this love this just watch where he leans across and dusts off the seat now that could be an adapter of some sort that could be anxiety I'm gonna read it might be my bias I'm gonna read it that he actually cares for her now and that he's making sure her seat is okay because he has she has managed to get him to have that father daughter bond with it I'm gonna read it as that just because I would like that to be the case it could be just a nervous adapter we do see him do something similar around the table he doesn't knock on wood gesture now is that a knock on wood gesture or is it like just anxiety and he's just hitting the wood I would like it to be a knock on wood gesture because he hopes that everything will go okay for him and he's made this relationship I'm not a mind reader nobody here is a mind reader I've really looked at mind readers actually and they just don't exist there is nobody out there who can read people's minds certainly none of us are in that department they don't exist but I'd like it to be the way that I've seen it there Greg what do you got on this one yeah Mark what I've seen in my life many many many times before somebody gives up is coming to closure rubbing things tactile movement that kind of stuff I've had more than one time where personally you leave them in the room and you see them rubbing their palms on something you come back and they're ready to give up so it remember these guys are in a habit trail we're looking at everything they do they're like in a little aquarium or an ant farm we're watching every movement so when we leave it's with if we think that they're getting relaxed we go right back into jack up their anxiety it's part of it so I've seen it happen many times I think that's all it is but yeah that's a more beautiful story I think it's a great idea and maybe there's some psychological ploy going on but there's a good indicator that she has gotten him to be internally focused and that he misunderstood when she said I'm gonna get up and get some water he didn't say she didn't say anything about him what we know about captivity and about all of that being locked up is that everything becomes about self it's one of the two factors we rely on black and white thinking it's not a it's not a b c d e or g it's a or g we eliminate all those in betweens and people's brains start working black and white and everything becomes about them for example seer when you go after when you walk into a crowd of people the guy standing here is thinking oh my god they're coming after me not they're coming after chase poor guy it's always about me so all that stuff means that all this work has been done and now this detective leaving him alone well you might think that's a bad idea she's got him so internally focused if she chased to your point earlier if she is tending it and not letting him have time to think if she's tending it if she walks out gets some water brings in another stimulus to your point about bringing in a sheriff or cop or something and she creates that last piece of stimulus so you can drive him back down that well if she stays out too long if she doesn't do something to stimulate the behavior then he gets the time to think again he comes out of that black and white he comes out of that self-driven thing and now we got a problem so it's a matter of timing how long it takes but I still think this is probably one of the hardest interrogations we're going to see and artfully carried to this point Scott, what do you got? All right, I think he knows he's obviously he knows he's being watched he's a police he was the chief or a chief somewhere else and so he knows he's being watched with two I took this two ways Mark I see where you're coming from and that makes a lot of sense one thing was I think he wanted them to see him doing that for some reason I don't know what on the other side I know he got he was arrested and he's in prison now for something more horrible or as it's it's murder is horrible this is horrible as well sexual assault, yeah yeah yeah and I think maybe that may be some part of his mind I think he's attracted to her and he can't reach out and touch her but he can go over there and brush off that where she was sitting I think that's what that he had to touch something in there because I think something's wrong with this guy that's my opinion I could be wrong probably am blah blah blah but that's what I think I think it came from that evil person that's in there doing it being able to get that's as close as he's ever going to be able to get to her and that's what it was now I thought something else was very interesting here did you see the way she picked that cup up and how she insisted on getting him water yes here I'm going with this I think they I think for some reason she needed the DNA or wanted the DNA I could be completely wrong please come on this show and talk to us about this because that's killing me I got to know what's up with that whether you need the DNA or not because she picks it up at the bottom the lower part of the cup but she keeps insisting that he needs water it could be part of her tactic to go in there and you know to bring another gift for you here's something else as I'm trying to help you that could be it but that's the perfect way I think to get the DNA from him there's something else I want to talk about what was it oh well totally missing on that part Chase what do you got I think that the DNA was a warrant collection like it was a it was a forced collection of DNA from what I read I briefly read online but this face and hands is classic pre-confession and this is right where you would instantly execute what they call there's a million words for it but a confession bridge technique Scott commonly talks about reaching out touch them say their name depending on the type of person you're dealing with and this is why it's so important to know the psychology of who you're talking to because different people are going to react to that stuff differently I'm going to go on a limb here and say in my opinion the reason he wipes off that chair is not something that I'm willing to talk about on YouTube as I know kids have access to this or might hear it in the background but I will say that it probably has something to do with temperature and proximity to what caused that temperature that's all I'm going to say yeah you said it cleaner than I did one of those tape replays I'm going to get some water I'm going to go get some water in it okay you know me take your pack with me just in case you want I can raise some yeah that's fine no I'm not going to worry about it I'm about to be in it no I don't want it hey what's that I'm walking that way anyways I'll get you some more you might hope you stay wait a little more for a fresh shift I'll be right back thank you that scares me every time I just said I don't know I don't get it whoa what was that that air I am what's bad is before thank you yeah of course you're the best of it no I know before this was not locked and some people would have opened that door and like if you forgot to lock it that's when we started talking like you were walking not in the middle of the time but hey what's your name Nakona Nakona yeah okay baby your last name Cordero Cordero yeah that's what I was Cordero yeah it was a pretty neat names thank you I appreciate that a lot of people miss that did you say Nakona Nakona was the first name Nakona what is that um just to make sure there's aliens and then it's a western I think that's food yeah I mean all things no it's a western brand it's a brand of a thing you know though I thought it was going to be it's in my my dad's country so well that's neat yeah listen great thank you you were well aware of what happened today I think you know are you here you're a smart guy I think you know what you what happened today and I just really want to talk and understand so I can get on your level and figure out what the next step is going to be I feel like you are the type of man who wants to who can understand that to me Kudero Kudero I like you I like this fella that was a detective here and I don't think I don't care if I think that happened and stuff and I just don't know how that how to uh when I had this happen before and I'm being brought in and interrogating for something so and I don't care but I just don't know how to I think how to be silent I think so sitting over here looking like a jerk no you're not honestly you were far from that you're very polite well I'm just going to continue to rest my eyes and don't you know why you're here I appreciate you guys and I'm just going to well I appreciate you being polite it's kind of a nice alternative but what I've done was before kind of nice to talk to you nice to talk to you do you want to talk to me kind of get along here yeah I feel like I need to it's up to you but obviously something's going on and I need one it's up to you I just want to hear your side of it I want to get along here I can't give you advice on that you need to know that all right Greg what do you got yeah so just watch this whole thing as she starts to personalize it and then he closes up and he's actually burying in the beginning he actually buries and then we see what I told you in the beginning is that opening that blossoming open to a confession post he's there he's got his hands on his legs so it makes it even easier to see he just kind of falls open and then his head drops down into his right and he's internalizing all this stuff that is the final part of pre-confession they're right there this is when you have to do is Chase just was saying the bridge or just quite frankly it's giving the person permission to do what is right and it's not right for them it's right for you but she interrupts that and the only reason she interrupts is probably she probably doesn't even know what it is if she's not been really really trained and she is just too far away that's the only thing she missed look I want to say this I have taught a hell of a lot of interrogators and very few people know how to do that and Chase you're gonna ask you to go next because you get the best analogy I've ever heard for it but the problem is when you get that close and you don't know how to take that next step it's a hard hard step and very few people get somebody to the point she just got this guy especially a guy who has been a police officer who knows the ramifications and who knows what's gonna happen when this happens so she got everything there she got the bite she just didn't get a hook set I'm still a fan we really do mean we want you to come on this show I've tried to contact you all of us want to see you we'd love to have you on Chase you're the best analogy I've ever heard so I'm gonna hand this off to you thank you well there's some kind of huge spike in openness here when they're talking about Nikona boots and he instantly shifts the comfort and a difficult to stand up position here and it comes to this point of silence and there's a reason that we left this silence in here and didn't cut it out of YouTube and didn't like oh let's skip over this because it's gonna be boring this is important for you to see too this moment is very similar of like needing to take action knowing what what you want to happen of like two high schoolers on a first date sitting there both looking the same direction and it's the first kiss moment of should I do this am I gonna face some kind of rejection is something bad going to happen I'm not saying at all that this is some kind of romantic thing but it's the same kind of hesitancy it's the same kind of self-doubt it's the same fear of rejection that's coming up as a moment like that Scott what do you got oh man yeah that had me crawling over my seat because there it was man laid out it doesn't get any cleaner than that that's the thing but I think again if she if she had if she just needs a little bit more experience that's all because it was right there and maybe she because it was so obvious I don't see how I don't see how she missed it if she had if she had just a few more years and I'm not I'm not talking bad about you I promise but I but I really I really oh man I couldn't I can't talk about it more Mark what do you got well she has had a few more years and made you maybe she's stacking them up now who knows yeah bringing them into land at the moment I really I really hope so look I think what everybody was just to give you a bit of a behind the scenes there as we were rewatching that everybody was screaming for a a close of proximity but for her to move in now look you know from one point of view I can see how she may not actually want to close closer to this person big big lad and and she maybe knows his form and and there may be some some real and fear there possibly not but I mean there's unconsciously there may well be so so everybody was screaming her for to close proximity and to move into what we'd call personal space which would be within what I would call striking distance of that person so that she could then maybe get some touch with that person again not in any kind of romantic way some kind of touch that says that then becomes intimate by intimate I don't mean romantic it means that you are you are as as close to somebody as you can possibly be and that most of the time when any two people are that close it means they trust each other beyond yeah so moving into personal space and then touching to create intimate space why because we only do that with people we truly trust and for this person to confess I mean you know as Greg as you were saying that that Dr. Phil on many occasions has said nobody confesses in public why because they don't know they can trust the public that's why they don't know what they're going to do with it so if you confess to somebody you have to know you can trust it and so it's it's that movement into personal and then intimate space which is the best signal we can create that says you can trust me of course it's not true it's absolutely not true you're getting conned at that point here's what you trust is that if you say what you did that that officer of the law is now going to take that to the authorities and tell them everything and you'll do the time that you deserve on that so it's a con it's a manipulation it's exciting for all of us here to see that the possibility of that but I agree with everybody there I mean you know difficult difficult to do and even if it had happened we just don't know whether this is somebody who would have tilted on that that might have been the moment that triggered him to re-control himself we people are complex you know people are complex but great what great what a great game what a great game it wore me out one of those tape replays what okay what's your name Nekona Nekona yeah okay baby is it your last name Cordero Cordero yeah that's what I was Cordero yeah those are pretty neat names thank you I appreciate that a lot of people mess it up did you say Nekona Nekona what's the first name Nekoma what is that this'll make sure there's aliens and then it's a western I think that's food yeah I mean all fitness no it's a western brain it's a brain of a thing you know so when the floor was going to get some oh yeah my dad's country so that's neat yeah listen Grant Nink you were well aware of what happened today I think you know are you here you're a smart guy I think you know what you what happened today and I just really want to talk and understand so I can get on your level and figure out what the next step is going to be and I feel like you are the type of man who wants to who can understand that to me Cordero Cordero I like you I like this fella that was a detective here and I don't think I don't care if I mean that but instead I just don't know how that how to when I had this happen before that I'm being brought in and interrogated for something so from that I don't care but I just don't know how I think how to be silent I think so sitting over here looking like a jerk no you're not honestly you were far from that you're very polite I'm just going to continue to rest my eyes and don't you know why you're here I appreciate you guys and I'm just going to what I appreciate you being polite it's kind of a nice alternative but what I've done was before kind of nice to talk to you too nice time to go by do you want to talk to me can I get a lawyer yeah I feel like I need to it's up to you but obviously something's going on and I need one it's up to you I just want to hear your side I want to get a lawyer I can't give you advice on that you know that right up to this point Mark how are things looking to you well I think they're looking like one of the best interviews interrogations that we've seen maybe not the result that we've seen with with others absolutely but nonetheless I mean it's got to be in the top three hasn't it certainly certainly top five I would put it in top in top three so so you know fantastic Chase what do you think you know if they say it takes 10,000 hours to make a true master or a true expert at something the four of us you're you're looking at probably a hundred thousand maybe more than that hours of expertise and mastery and it's so hard to watch YouTube and imagine that people have lives outside of you know just being sitting here on your iPad screen or whatever if all of us are saying this is one of the best we've ever seen that's a meaningful statement that's a meaningful statement for a person that's this young and in such a small town and probably doesn't have the best training in the world to be able to do this on the fly in this good of a way I think it's just profound I think it's great and Nakona I hope we can reach out to you and talk to you soon Greg what do you think so far yeah I've taught interrogation for a thousand years I'm the old guy I've been teaching interrogation since the 90s that's a long long time ago and what I would tell you is there's an instinct that people have that you cannot create and if you don't have the instinct all the teaching in the world will make you better but not make you stellar I used to say you need to train a thousand people to get ten stellar guys this is stellar this is stellar performance just because you didn't win the close doesn't mean you didn't work the process and get it there now if you have no training we would love to hear that too but we want to hear your story because if you have no training you just instinctively know how to interrogate if you have training maybe you missed a little something but this guy's a hard interrogation what I want you guys to know is when I found this I was as giddy as Scott was because I said look this is a beautiful interrogation I've been sitting on it for a while but this is one that we knew would go really long and if you're still with us thanks for that dedication subscribe if you haven't and tell other people about it Scott yeah this is this is so exciting from a nerd's perspective I mean wow it was just so exciting from that from the first guy left and she comes in just the whole game change you're like what so yeah and when you see what she's doing and Nakona I'm sure I think she knows what she's doing I think she knows she was doing that because that's how can you I don't think I don't think you can naturally just fall into that and get her all the stuff she got done done in that but I golly boy I sure hope you come talk to us Nakona because we even if we don't put it on on an episode just zoom with us so we can we can ask all these questions about this then we got to introduce you to Jim Smith that's another story but and you guys will get along famously but I think it was great I think it was awesome I think she did a fantastic job and I can't tell you all enough how maybe I should take the the stuff us being all excited and stuff and tag it on at the end of this right after this I think that's what I'll do that'll take out all the the hollering parts that are fit for listening to we're rude for you man all right fellas thanks for this another good and we'll see you next time so what do you got?