 Does a sea sponge deserve rights? Yeah. Legal rights for protection? Legal rights for protection, yeah. We've got a chicken here, a sea sponge here. Do you think they deserve equal rights? A shaman and a sea sponge deserve equal rights? Yeah. Is it just as bad to step on a sea sponge as it is to step on a shaman being? Of course it is. If you think a sea sponge deserves rights, why do you eat chickens? If I literally had a sponge here and I started stepping on it, you'd probably look at me like, oh, stepping on a sponge. But a chicken here, I'm stepping on it. You go, what the f*** are you doing? That's true. So we've got a sign here, it says veganism is a moral obligation and I would like you to tell me why it's not if you have that position. Do you want to know why I think it is? Yeah, please. I believe that we are obliged to, it's only a small change too, it's not like you've got to change a few things in your lifestyle, obliged to live a life that doesn't support the rights violations of non-human animals. And the best way we can do that is by being vegan. What I mean by that, human beings have rights, protecting them fundamental rights, you know, don't enslave, don't rape, don't murder, don't bash innocent people. But if you took human beings and put them in the case of animals in animal agriculture, they're being forcibly bred, tortured in most cases, even if they're not tortured, they're all murdered, chopped up into pieces, sold in the supermarket, you probably would stop supporting it. We're talking about slavery and murder, really. So that's the kind of obligation I'm talking about, like, yeah. Okay, let's say everyone went vegan. There are obviously health benefits to being vegan, but there are also some deficits and some people have reported issues with having the vegan diet and then they switch back and problem solve. The reason it's not an obligation to not violate the rights of animals is because there are some anecdotes, like personal stories, of people who did a vegan plant-based diet or something. Yeah. They reported issues and then they went back to eating meat and now they're okay. That's why we should, it's okay to violate animal rights. Well, that's just the start of it. I think there are certain, well, we are omnivores. We are omnivores. I don't really care. Okay, you don't really care, but everyone's ancestors. I don't care if we are 40 years of eating meat. Yeah, I don't really care about that. So what do you think, what are your opinions on creating and stuff like that? The reason I don't care about what we are or what we used to do and stuff like that because it's not really an ethical argument because we could be omnivores. I think we're more opportunistic eaters, but let's say we've been eating meat and plants. Yeah, yeah, we're not really designed like an omnivore, like a bear or something like that. True. But yeah, let's say we've been eating meat and plants for this amount of time. The reason I don't care about that is because it's not an argument to justify violating animal rights if we can live fine as a vegan. Now, using anecdotes, personal stories of people who may or may not have done a vegan diet properly, who knows, there's no way of tracking them. That's not data. They're saying, hey man, like, yeah, I tried this eating just lettuce and stuff, man. And then I got sick or I got deficiency or blah, blah, blah, blah. They didn't do their blood work beforehand. They didn't track their calories. We don't know what they ate. There's no way of collecting data on these people to find out what they did wrong. And basically, like, at what point in time would you say that these anecdotes would justify, like, if you put humans in place of the animals right now, all right? Let's say there's no non-human animals as any human animals, all right? So we've got veganism right now. We've got a bunch of science on plant-based diet saying that you can be perfectly healthy if you're supplement, if you do a well-planned diet. But you have some anecdotes of people who stopped eating humans, got some deficiencies or reported some issue, come back to eating humans, all right? And then feel better, all right? Do you think that those anecdotes would justify continuing this human holocaust to eat them? Place humans inside the gas chambers where they kill the animals and slaughterhouses where they kill the animals. Your justification right there would justify continuing the human holocaust. Okay, but what would you do for those people who couldn't continue with the vegan diet because there was detriment to their health? Yeah, well, I mean, you're making a claim here but you have to have, when you make a claim, right? These people out there in the ether, right? I've seen stories. I've seen stories of ex-vegans. Usually people, they go vegan for, whatever their motivation is, it's generally, the ones that go back, it's generally health-related. They went vegan to lose weight or to get some magical health thing, but those who go vegan for animals are much less likely to revert back because they go vegan for animal ethics. It was more trendy for these people. They try it as like a gimmick kind of thing, you know? And they do it for their health temporarily and then they, it's like people who start the gym, you know, most people go to the gym, they start off at the gym, revert back. Yeah, it's like most people, 50% wouldn't come after, so it's more. Just say it's more. People start the gym for their health and to get fit, then it's not something that they're going to be motivated to continue because it's a, not everyone's motivated to be healthy all the time, are they? But when you're motivated by something like animals having their heads cut off for an unjustifiable reason, you're more likely to stay vegan, you're more likely to go, you know what, maybe I'll take a vitamin B12 supplement. But where does that supplement come from? That's the thing like creatine. Where does it come, where do B12 supplements come from? And creatine. Where do you think they come from? B12 synthesized. Yeah, sir. Yeah, so when you put them in the plants. Okay, so let's say they're produced with GM crops. What's the matter with having a B12 supplement? Well, is that not morally wrong to use a plant as a means to... If it's not, that B12 doesn't come from plants. Where does it come from? If B12 come from plants, we wouldn't have to supplement, vegans wouldn't have to supplement it. Do they supplement it? Yeah, vegans should supplement B12. Well, because is it just from like living... It's basically a bacteria produces it. And animals can get it from the soil, like rumenant animals can get it from the soil, because the bacteria is in the soil. Or they actually inject supplements into the animals. Do you know that? They inject either Colbert, which is how they make B12, or they inject straight up B12 supplements to chickens and pigs and animals that people eat. So the animals people eat are being supplemented anyway. Would you say that's wrong? Supplement in something which is benefit, it's beneficial for them, isn't it? I know, I understand that. People, if you get B12 from animals, you generally get it from the supplements that they're eating. If you're eating chickens and pigs and all that. Okay. So if you've got a problem with supplements, you probably wouldn't be eating animals anyway. But yeah, I don't have a moral issue with having a B12 supplement at all. I mean, if you think there's an ethical issue with it, then tell me why there is. No, I was just interested in... Yeah, yeah, like I do think that if you're not getting enough sun, like during the winter here, you should supplement with vitamin D. 100%. I've done that in the past. Yeah, and meat eaters should do, like, you know what I'm saying? So do you know what happens to animals in animal farming? I've watched, like, caspiracy, stuff like that. Yeah, now that's an environmental documentary. I mean, it's got a little bit in there, I think, but it's mostly an environmental documentary. I mean, like, to the degree, like, for example, with pigs, do we eat pigs? Not really. Only white meat. So chickens and that? Hull tree. Oh yeah, I get you, like, birds. So we eat birds. So yeah, the birds here are mostly factory farm. Yeah, like... So they're supposed to be factory farm, do you mean? Yeah, well, no, you don't really get free-range chicken meat here. I mean, yeah, I mean, it'd be like... Even if it says on the packet, say, like, pretty much every egg... I'm talking about flesh here. Yeah, flesh, and, I mean, they must come from the same chicken, surely. No. They come from the same chicken. Well, a certain amount of flesh comes from free-range eggs hence when they're murdered, but the chicken that you eat is not free-range, man. Okay. So, I mean, you're conflating eggs with birds here, flesh. Right. Yeah. But anyways, like, so the hens, they live a short life and they're living in suffering just by existing because they're, you know, they're falling over their bodies, their bodies grow really fast, and so every single chicken shed, like, at a certain point in time, will just be rampant with suffering birds, and then they go get slaughtered. So that's where chicken flesh generally comes from. Do you think that that's, like, justified to do that to those birds to eat their bodies considering, like, we can be vegan? I think, oh, I mean... Do you think it's an obligation to avoid that? I wouldn't say it's an obligation necessarily. I think everyone should take steps to avoid it. Why? Well, because, obviously, as you've been saying, we literally, we can't continue like this. I think... Causing the suffering to the birds, you mean? The suffering and the environmental impact because it's got massive sustainability issues. Yeah, I'm not, I mean, I'm concerned with that, but my primary concern is, like, the birds being raised and murdered, because I'm an animal rights activist. Actually, it's a little different to, like, a welfare person, like, I care about suffering by torture and things like that. They happen rampantly. But I also care about the rights of the being, because, like, you can find a pigeon over here, they're flying around there. So, say they're a happy pigeon, they live a happy life, they're free, I would be against just walking up and killing that pigeon. Well, yeah, for sure, for sure. Would you? No, I understand that completely. Yeah, even if it caused them no suffering. Yeah. So that's rights, basically. I've violated their rights. You've violated their rights, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So what do you think about, say, Daphnia? Do you know what Daphnia? It's like a small water flea. A water flea? Yeah, it's a model organism used in experimentation. Yeah, I don't think organisms are... Well, I know that organisms are not sentient. They're like little intelligent life forms that is a difference between intelligence and experience. Things can act intelligently, like germs and microbes and things like that, but they're not sentient. Yeah, well, my question is, chickens, cows, I'll agree with you, they are treated horribly and it's completely outrageous. And they have their rights violated as well. Yeah, they have their rights violated. Even if they're not treated horribly, yeah. So what about organisms that have biologically cannot experience stress? Organisms that cannot biologically experience stress. Then I don't care about them. Because they don't care about themselves, they don't have anything to care about, they're not... The reason I believe animals deserve rights is because what happens to them matters to them. But they're also animals. But I don't care if something is an animal. I care if they are a sentient animal. But you're an animal activist. Yeah, but I only care about sentient animals. But what makes them different? I only care about sentient beings. Yeah, no, okay. And not just animals, I care about sentient beings like you. Well, you're an animal, actually. If there was like a being that wasn't technically an animal and they were sentient, I would care what happened to them. Because what happens to them matters to them. Because sentience is the only way you can experience anything. Like it's your experience, it's who you are. You're a subject as well. Like a subject is you, the individual. And sentience is your experience, your subjective experience. But it's an evolution of life. And all animals are life, okay? I don't care if an animal is alive. I don't care if a plant is alive. I care if they are sentient. But it's a group, isn't it? What should I care about a non-sentient being? Why shouldn't you? No, no, no, I already told you why I shouldn't, because I don't have experience. Tell me why I shouldn't. I don't have experience, but because your ethos, I think is a more of a sort of utilitarianism for animals sort of approach to things. A rights-based approach. I told you I'm a rights-based approach. Greatest amount of good for the greatest amount. No, I'm not a utilitarian. Okay. But animal rights activists. Why do you differentiate between, what makes you different? Because if a greater number of people got a great- I'm not just talking about- No, one second. I'll let you know why I'm not a pure utilitarian. I care about suffering and well-being, but not at the expense of the rights of others. If five of us got pleasure from raping one individual or killing and eating one individual, that would be the greatest amount of pleasure for the greatest number of people, but we violated someone's rights. So rights would protect that person from us getting great pleasure. If we're all sick in this- That's a valid argument. Yeah, yeah. So I'm a rights activist. Human rights protect minorities. Human rights protect those who can't protect themselves. They're not for the majority, because the majority can be might-makes-right, and we've seen what happens in history. So human rights are to protect those who can't protect themselves. Children, those who are vulnerable, minority groups, people with disabilities. Okay, that's what rights are for. My question to you is why don't we include animals in that sphere of compassion or consideration? Sentient animals. Sentient animals. Non-sentient animals, because I don't give a s*** about sea sponge, bro. Unless you do. Because why, I don't, I mean- Do you care about a sea sponge? I think they're pretty cool. They're important for a biodiverse. I mean, like, do you care about what happens to a sea sponge? If I stepped on a sea sponge, would you be upset with me that I'd caused, done something? Yeah. What have I done to that sea sponge? Well, you stepped on it, so. Yeah, but why does that- Does a sea sponge deserve rights? Yeah. Legal rights for protection? Legal rights for protection, yeah. They literally do- Why do they deserve rights? For biodiversity reasons. If you think a sea sponge deserves rights, why do you eat chickens? Because I try to- I've obviously, it's so difficult in this situation, in this hard part. Okay, so I've got a chicken here, and a sea sponge here. To control why, in terms of, like, where it's sourced. Yeah, and that's fine. A lot of people don't. People just mindlessly eat, and they think they're doing the right thing, because they see green grass and advertising. So I get it. I was part of that same- I'm an investigator as well as an activist, you know? So I see what goes on behind the closed doors that a lot of people don't see. But we've got a chicken here, a sea sponge here. Do you think they deserve equal rights? A shaman and a sea sponge? Do they deserve equal rights? Yeah. Is it just as bad to step on a sea sponge as it is to step on a shaman being? Of course it is. I really need to pull you off of this, because this is a bit of an insane position. A sea sponge doesn't experience anything. Yeah, but it's about the- So why do you care about- Is it a problem for me to step on this table? Well, no, because it's- Why? Because it's inorganic, isn't it? So is it a problem for me to step on a carrot? Well, that's a different one. It's organic? It's already harvested. Is it a problem for me to step on a tree root? Well, yeah, it's about how it affects the individual. And how does it affect the individual? There's no individual inside a tree. There is an individual inside the tree, because there is a tree, isn't there? But there is a table. There is a table, but obviously- What's inside this table? What's inside this table? It's a hydrocarbon, it's plastic. Yeah, it's a bunch of atoms grouped together. But it was an animal. I'm just saying, and there's an individual inside a tree. There's an individual in- Well, we're arguing the same- No, no, we're talking about rights here, right? No, the reason we're focusing on this, because if you believe a sea sponge, which is a non-sentient life form, with no brain, no eyes, no functioning nervous system, if you think that they deserve rights the same as a chicken or a human does, then I don't know how you're deriving value for these beings. I don't know what your metric is. I don't think it's about the individualness of them, the individualism in terms of their own pain and suffering and what it might do to them, compared to what it does to things that, I don't know, maybe a little goldfish or something might depend on the sponge to survive, and that is an opportunity- But why does that matter? Because on the large scale- Because the goldfish matters. The only reason that would matter is because the goldfish matters. Because the goldfish has sentience. So the only reason non-sentient things matter is because of the value they bring to sentient beings. Not really. But why would you bring a goldfish into the picture? I'm talking about a sea sponge. It's all connected, it's all connected. It's a goldfish, as in the knock-on impact. So they're all connected. If I torture a sea sponge, does it matter? Yeah. Who does it matter to? It matters to what matters. Does it matter to the sea sponge? Yeah. Well, not to the sea sponge. No, no, no, no. Okay, no. Okay, so now you understand rights. If it doesn't matter to the sea sponge, it doesn't matter. It does matter. It really does. Okay, well- Can we talk about trawling though? So let's just say there's a sea sponge in the ocean torturing it does nothing to its external environment. Yeah, but it does. No, no, no. This is all hypothetical. Exactly, this is how we find out whether a sea sponge deserves rights, right? Because you deserve rights no matter what happens to the external environment, because you matter. So if I have you in a room and you were born in that room and I torture you, it's still gonna matter no matter if it doesn't affect anything externally, yeah? Because you matter, you experience it. Rights are for the individual. Okay. Yeah, therefore they protect the individual. But they're different sorts of rights. Rights aren't just for the individual, rights are- Yeah, yeah, there's positive rights and there's worker rights. I'm talking about the right not to be interfered with. That's what I want for animals. So- I don't want that for animals either. I don't want the- That's what it's all about. You want them to have rights, right? Animals? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to explain to you why animals deserve rights which is because what happens to them matters to them. So non-sentient things, what happens to them doesn't matter to them. It only matters how it affects sentient beings. It does for you if you- Because otherwise, right, trawling, okay? Literally all of this seagrass, like it's like 70% of the seagrass in the Mediterranean has been destroyed through trawling. The trawling matters because the environment only matters because of the sentient beings in there. No, because it's all about balance. Like- Nobody said good, no, we have to stop it. The environment only matters to the sentient beings who exist in the environment. Otherwise, why would it matter in and of itself? Life is literally like, how much life do we know is out there? Why does life matter if there's no one there to experience it? Well, life would experience, wouldn't it? Life doesn't have an experience. Only sentience- Life has an experience, doesn't it? How? Well, how would we have an experience if we haven't got- So we have a brain, a functioning nervous system. We can experience the world through our perception and our eyes. Why should we have a separate and different sort of rights to something that doesn't necessarily have a brain? Plants have no central nervous system. Yeah, they don't experience it well. Chemicals, they do- Well, they do experience it well. No, they have sensory reactions to stimuli- So do we, that's fundamentally what we have. No, but we don't. We have a sentient- We have a subjective experience. We are someone. Yeah, we're subjected because of these chemical impulses. We're not just a group of chemical impulses. Fundamentally- But we are an individual. At the root we are. Yeah, but not like a plant. Because of the combination of evolution from non-sentient life to where we are. So why should we- And when we were non-sentient, what were we? We were non-sentient and say, okay, we couldn't experience it. So why would you stop something from- Say all humans were, I don't know, destroyed because they were sentient or apes that sort of evolved into humans. Yeah, they were sentient. They were wiped out. So that's going to stop the development of sentience. So why should that be sort of stopped? You're talking about wiping out apes. They were sentient. I would care about that. No, I'm talking about before that. I'm talking about the root of- Yeah, but we're already here. We're sentient. So you've got to make the argument why we should give rights to a tree and a human the same kind of rights. Oh, no, I'm not talking about the same sort of rights. Before you said a sponge deserves the same rights as a chicken and a human. I should say that. Yeah, no, that's all right. No, look, you're tripping me out here because- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You probably had a sponge here and I started stepping on it. You'd probably look at me like, oh, you're stepping on a sponge. But a chicken here, I'm stepping on it. You go, what the f**k are you doing? That's true. Because you know something about that chicken, don't you? You know that chicken, that's f**king hurting that chicken. Yeah, but it's, yeah, oh, no, we can't. It's very difficult for me to comprehend taking it out of the context of its environment, of its ecosystem. I'm just trying to get you to fundamentally understand why beings deserve rights. Yeah. Right? And that's why I was making the distinction between non-sentient animals like sponges and little organisms that work through stimulation and they're just ziggling around. And beings like chickens who have a brain or eyes, they experience, they get scared, they are individuals, right? And human beings, right, us. So I want to include these animals that have experience similar to us in this sphere of rights. Okay? And being vegan, that's why I call it obligation. All you need to do to stop supporting their rights violations is to live a vegan lifestyle. Okay, well, I understand that. Do you agree with that? What do you think about monocultures? Biodiversity is much more important than necessarily the farming industry as it is today. Do you understand why we... Do you care more about biodiversity than animals and factory farms? Oh, you're trying to get me to say something controversial here. No, because you said it. I think... I mean, it's just asking you, like... No, I think... Because why does biodiversity matter? For the general health of the planet. But why does that matter? For their sentient life. For the non-sentient life. Okay. For all life. For biodiversity in the sentient life in factory farms. Moral difference. Moral difference. For their experience. Wild birds and birds in a factory farm. Well, they just experience different things, certainly. So... Yeah, I'm just saying, but they're personal. What matters to them? What matters to them? It might be different. Because... Yeah. I know that's morally wrong. Morally, that is wrong. That they're... Do you think it matters more that the animals in the wild matter more than the animals in factory farms? No. No. Okay. What's monocultures got to do with that? It's got massive... Impact in the environment. For the environment. And I think ecologically, there's no way of going forwards with monocultures. So do you think there's a way forwards with sustainable farms that are also well managed? Because obviously, you can't deny that biodiversity is important for our existence. Yeah, look, listen, listen, listen. Why would you think more monocropping would happen if we all ate a vegan diet and lived a vegan lifestyle? Not necessarily because it's the right thing to do, but I think the way that... Why do you think there would be more monocropping if we all went vegan? Because it's the most viable way for the governments to sort of make it profitable. Do you think... Because in a sense, I think that's what it comes down to the... But one second. The movement. What do you think the chickens eat that you eat here? Well, they eat a whole bunch of rubbish. In the troughs. Well, they eat soy. And they eat grains. Okay, they eat soy and grains. Which are monocropped. Yeah, exactly. More monocropping has to happen... I know they exist now. You know, 40% of the arable land, which is the land that can be farmed on, plant farmed on, 40% of it is used to grow cereal grain crops for animals. Yeah. 40%, nearly half of it in the UK. Yeah. So if we stopped feeding cereal crops to animals, you don't think that would be positive in terms of reducing monocrops? Most of them. Most of the animals. But what about the animals? Most of the grain in the US is actually grown to feed to animals. Yeah. To feed to animals. I know. I know it's a massive problem. So if we stopped feeding the animals, we wouldn't... Eating the animals. Yeah. Okay. But what about... So what? Would you say that there's any compromise in terms of naturally pasturing, reforested area? Do you think there's any... You had an issue with me shooting a pigeon, right? Mm-hmm. You said that was a rights violation, yeah? Yeah. So if there's some cows on a pasture, why wouldn't there be a right... There's no difference. There's no difference. Okay. But you don't think... You can do sustainable farming vegan. Why do we have to slaughter animals? Do you think it takes up more room? Like... Yeah, it's a lot less room, so basically if you look at the Joseph Paul research from Oxford University, we could reduce the Earth's farmland by 75% if we all adopted a vegan diet because we just would need less land for grazing animals, growing crops to feed animals. Animals have to eat a bunch of plants before they grow, and we just eat the plants directly. Okay. Yeah. That's a good point. What about natural predation? Do you think that animal rights are sort of different when it's, it's natural? I would prefer animals didn't violate each other's rights as well, you know, like... But how could you control that? Yeah, exactly. I don't know. It's like, where do you draw the line between where the animal's rights is? Well, I'll put it like this to you like this. If a dog, a wild dog was attacking a wild dog, I wouldn't care if it was natural. I'd probably try to stop it. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? If you were in nature and a cougar was attacking you, I wouldn't say circle of life, that's natural predation. No, you would probably shoot the cougar to stop a... You'd shoot the cougar? To stop him murdering you. Yeah, you wouldn't shoot him to... But why wouldn't you shoot... Wait a second. What if I was attacking the... You wouldn't shoot a shark to stop him killing me? No, because you could, there's other ways to get rid of it, isn't there? No, but if you only had a gun... If you only had a gun, then you're in the wrong situation, aren't you? You shouldn't have gone something else. You wouldn't shoot the animal to protect me? Well, I would not, to protect you. Yeah, self-defense. I'm saying it now. Why choose me over the shark? I would shoot a person to protect you, bro. If a human was about to stab you... Okay, but what about me in the shark? What about me in the shark? What made you choose to shoot in the shark? Now, because you talked about natural predation, I was just giving you examples of how I was... But that's not natural predation. Yeah, you're in the natural habitat. You're an animal. Yeah, but what about... Say it's not humans. No humans involved. Somewhere out in God knows where... A hawk is just eating a mouse. Did you have a problem with that? Yeah. Okay, but what can you do? It's like if there was a giant hawk coming and eating us, I would still have a problem with it. What can I do about it? I don't know. But I know what you can do. You can be vegan. But how could that stop the natural predation? Because that violates your right. Humans are violating human rights right now. Humans are violating human rights right now, yeah? Yeah. They're enslaving people. There's sex slavery going on. There's people being... There's war crimes happening right now, yeah? How do I stop it? There's nothing that you can do. The least I can do is talk on this. The least I can do is not participate in it, yeah? Or the least I can do is not violate human rights, yeah? Okay, yeah. The least you can do is not violate animal rights. You can't stop all animal rights violations yourself. But why does that give you the right to go and violate animal rights through your lifestyle when you can avoid it? Well, I could avoid it. You can avoid it. I'm talking about natural predation. So that doesn't mean you should be vegan though, right? That doesn't mean... No, but I'm trying to get my head around your... Like the boundaries where your activist sort of like... Obviously, there are things I can't do. Just because I can't stop bombs being dropped onto children, that doesn't mean I don't think it's wrong and I don't think it should happen. That's an extreme example. I'm just talking about natural... I'm just talking about human rights. I can't control human rights violations happening. But I can control what I do. Okay. So why would you say, hey, there's a hawk. Got to eat a f***ing mouse over there. Do you think that's all right? Obviously, not for the mouse. It's not all right. But I can't f***ing stop it. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go kill the mouse myself. Do you know what I'm trying to say to this? I know what you're trying to say. So why does that mean that you shouldn't... So my question to you is why does that mean you shouldn't be vegan? Because the science says do you have a moral obligation... You have a moral obligation to be vegan basically. Do you agree with that? I think it's a rough topic. And I think there are certain things... Do you think you have an obligation to avoid the rights violations of animals? Yeah, but what about other animals? So why does it matter to humans? Don't worry about it. What about other humans? Do you have an obligation to... Let me just put it back to you. Do you have an obligation to avoid rights violations to humans? Okay, but what about other humans? Do they violate the rights of humans? Okay, yeah, but as you said, I've got no control of that. Okay, but you do have control over the rights violations you commit to other humans, yeah? But you have a problem with... I see exactly what you're saying, but you said that you had a problem with a hawk eating the mouse. For the mouse? It is a problem. That you can be... For the mouse? But you also said that you had a problem. It harms the mouse. Would you want to be eaten alive? No, of course. But naturally that's just a natural way of thinking. That's a natural way. I don't care what's natural, dude. I care what's ethical. But do you think the hawk should become vegan? Sorry? Do you think the hawk should become vegan? In a perfect world, yeah, if I could go like that, 100%. You wouldn't want to stop animals mauling each other alive? If you could go like that? No, it's just the way that things have happened. Brother, but if you could go like... My question to you is if you could go like that and stop animals mauling each other alive, would that be morally preferable? I mean, yes, it would be, but the thing is... Then that's your answer. The thing is we don't live in a perfect world. We don't. I mean... You can't stop animals in nature doing what they do. Right? No. But you can be vegan. So what's this got to do with? Yeah, okay. It's just, it's too difficult to... So I asked you, is there a moral obligation to be vegan? There is a moral obligation. And then you said, but a hawk eats a mouse. I'm worried about you right here. You're right here. Yeah. I think I like the hawk. You're not like nothing like the hawk, bro. You're not in a survival situation, mate. In terms of animal rights. In terms of animal rights. Why you would be completely des... You said what happens to chickens is bad. You think animals deserve rights? You're violating their rights when you go and support the industry and buy the chickens that go to the slaughterhouse for you? Yeah? Why don't you just boycott it? If you found out you can be healthy as well because that was another concern. That's true, actually. But it's been nice talking to you, bro. Thanks a lot, brother. Joey. And you're Jacob. Remembered. Bye, bro.