 Oh hey everybody! We're back! And it's great to see you again. I bet you're wondering, is Rainforest okay? Is Colorado now just a frozen tundra devoid of life? Was it all too much from Malone? And was he forced to eat Dave to survive? And the answers to all your questions is a resounding maybe. The good news is that the show is back and we have a ton of new episodes just waiting for you to comment on. Assuming Cesar Malone's methods work on a pocket beagle long enough for me to finish editing. Along with the new episodes, I have a restorative justice graph from a novel coming out, a bunch of talks at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, and a Patreon page. Yes, if you go to patreon.com slash the shakedown, you'll find out more about our latest projects and get access to some exclusive stuff. Like our holiday special, so much cool stuff is on the way. We have some great topics. I have some ideas for different formats, which I definitely want your feedback on. And I have some guests in the works. Plus we have an all new fancy shmancy intro, which you will see right about. Hello and welcome to the shakedown, where we discuss the criminal justice system from the inside out. The goal of this podcast to explain how the criminal justice system works from policing to courts to prison to parole and how they affect all of us. The hosts of the shakedown draw from personal experience and share their stories. Our hosts include Malone, who spent 30 years in Texas prisons and is now a published comic book artist. Dave has been in and out of prisons for most of his life and is a proud dad. Both have traveled the country speaking about their experience with Texas prisons. My name is Ryan a.k.a. Rainforest and I spent six years in Texas prisons during which time I studied sociology, criminology and writing. I now live up in Colorado, where I help with local projects to help those struggling in the community. And now here's our show. And if it's someone who just wants to get high and just smoke the whole time or just wants to yell at other people like that are way down the run or in the day room or wants to like tattoo himself or who knows what like or the beef. Oh, yeah. Or homosexual. Yeah. Not that knocking that. But yeah, I know it's just it's against the rules in there. And you know, also that means there's a possibility that they could bring somebody else into your cell, right? You know, and then because I've had that happen to me before I was sellies with the guy. And I come in, you know, I come in to go to my cell and in and out. And there's him and some other dude are in the cell. And I'm just kind of like, really? What's going on? You know, right? You know, and so I went back to the day room. I was like, okay, fine. I'll give you, you know, whatever. You know, I don't know. I mean, I want to spend as little time as possible in a cell with somebody, especially somebody I don't like. Right? You know, it really gives you a greater appreciation for your privacy. You really you have no idea like how I no idea how important your privacy is until you have zero. And then you have to split your time with somebody. And like you said, it's not a matter of like, you're, whoever it is, their sexual preference really isn't the problem is the problem is is like, what they're actually end up doing. And like the things that they end up doing that in the, like they're bringing back to the cell. Um, because they're a funny guy. It's always interesting the people who let like, I'd end up getting along with, because they're not usually people I would end up like hanging out with. Well, there's not a lot of people I'd end up hanging out with like out in the, the free world. But I get along with them because we could talk, we get like, we, if you can talk and you can, you can understand each other, you can come to an understanding, you can say, you like arguments don't get out of hand or like there's, you can have a disagreement say, Hey, let's figure this thing out. That's hard to find. That's, that's, but when you have that, it's amazing. It's the best thing in the world. And, or you just be like, Hey, like the fact that you can just come back to the cell and no matter whether you're both in or neither one of your, you know, um, however it's set up and you, you know, it's okay. Like it's, you're, you can still chill. That's really nice, but it's super rare to find, find that. I just tell you one time that we spent two years in the same cell and the dude never left just to go eat. That was it. And I used to just drive me crazy and cause it's like, you don't get any time, any personal time in, in prison, except for if you have a one man cell, you can easily get a, you know, somewhat privacy, you know, in the dorms, yeah, kind of, but you know, you're, it's still not, you know, alone time, the closest thing you can get to alone time in prison would be in the two man cells. Yeah. And it's like, it's crazy to how some people, they don't want to live anywhere else, but in the cell blocks. Yeah, I don't, there are, and it's, they like it because they can, the privacy that they get, like, so, uh, like when you go to the trustee camp, you get your own cubicle, but the officers can look in on it a lot easier than, than normal, but the, the thing is you have your own, it's like your own spot at least. And then, and then also people are getting called out to work all the time. So you're pretty much, you're generally going to find time, your own time, but the, like the cell blocks, you're guaranteed to have someone else in it, but the guys who want to live in there, you can hide from the officers a lot easier. There's ways to get away from them, but you're never going to have your own personal privacy. So that's why they, that's why they generally want them. Yeah, it's, it's not just, it's a trip though, you know, it's like, who in their right mind thought, Hey, let's make this cell that's four feet by eight feet and put a toilet in a sink in it and put two people, make two people live there. You know, they talk about like back before the big prison expansion in Texas, that some of those cells will be, when they were overcrowded, there are three people in the cell. Could you imagine? I can't imagine. And that would, and there's some people who would like, I know for a fact, they would just, they would feed on that. They would get, they would do everything. That would have, that's how they would do their time is like spinning the other two people up in whatever cell they're in because a lot of people love to do their time like that. It's entertaining. I mean, I can, I can see it, you know, I can get it. It's just like, they're controlling a situation and seeing the reactions they can make. Right. Which is unfortunate. I had at Ramsey one for the most, most of the time I was there, I had the guy who was in the cell with me, he was one that never left like seriously, he had school and then he never left either. But like, and it was annoying because I didn't have any privacy. When I came back to the cell, he was there. When I got home from work, he was there. He was always there. And like, and anytime he went to go eat or anything like that, like the only time that I could get any privacy is if I would skip meals. That's the only time that I would get any privacy. No, and he would, and then he, and then like, he would like rush to get in as soon as possible. So, but, but the good news is that we got along. We, other than that, like then it was annoying, but there was no issues. He just, as long as he could stay in the cell, he was fine. I was like, that's fine. I think in a lot of ways when you're living in that close proximity to somebody, there's quirks and things you will put up with that might even seem funny, right? Or whatever, or humors that, you know, in a normal situation would drive you crazy. Right. But, you know, when you're living in a confined space, you kind of got to, you know, you got to be very flexible. Otherwise, it's not going to be good. Well, one thing is a lot easier to be, I feel like it's a lot easier to be optimistic because you, you can see how much worse it can get. A lot of times, a lot of times it's so much more clear, like what, how much worse you could, you could see, like, you're, you might be stuck in your cell with, you know, you're, you're selling the house mouse, like, um, who's there all the time. And then you leave and then you'll see someone and be like, well, at least I don't have that dude. Like, like, you know, I'm not stuck living with them. Or, you know, someone who I, I remember my first celly, he, um, I was, I was able to get moved only because he got, he got her cell, her cell was getting searched like three times a day because he had hidden K2 and all this other stuff, the stuff he had taken from maintenance. You know, that's, that brings up another topic too. People like your celly having contraband. Yeah. They come in and shake your cell, the cell down. You've got whatever, say there's tobacco in a common area, you know, your cell doesn't want to own up to it. So what happens, you both get a disciplinary, right? You know, it's, it's, it's just crazy. You know, it's like, what's ironic for me is while I went through it all, I never thought about it like I'm thinking about it now. It was just like, Oh, this is another fast to prison. That's something I have to be used to, whatever. Well, this is how things work. You know, versus here, you sit back and you're thinking, damn, you know, like all the, you know, the things you have to deal with, things you have to get to know, um, you know, just like your interaction with somebody and not even just somebody, but like say your interaction with your cell, your cellmate and his homeboys. Yeah. And that is absolutely, you have to, it's always a game of politics for them because it is, yeah, his own boys can relay something, can be talking in his ear the whole time and then you get the consequences of it. Right. And it's like, I mean, it's just, it's interesting though. It's like, you could get whatever, you know, or even if you have a thief or selling somebody likes to steal, you know, he steals something from somebody and they come to your house, your cell looking for it and you're just kind of like, huh, you know, and you could catch rap for it. So it's a strange dynamic that I never really even thought about, you know, and then it's cool too. Like, well, interesting too, is how there are some, uh, some units that have single man cells. Yeah. You know, it's, I mean, I was never fortunate enough to be on one. I noticed the only place that I saw that had single man cells where we're like the for guys who were in solitary, they were ad sag, they were like the G five, like they were, they were not going to be able to be in general population because they gotten too many serious cases or they're like, what, I'm trying to think of what is going to get you G five for and get you like in solitary for an extended period of time. Dave, do you know, you could get just repeat repeatedly get major cases and they'll G five you for that. And then it depends on the severity of the case. You can always assault an officer. Yeah. That'll definitely get you G five off the unit. Try and kill somebody that do the same thing. Or none. That sounds so just like a matter of fact, but like so, I guess, you know, like you shank somebody. Yeah. G five or the easiest way go down to the gang intelligence officer and tell them you're in fear of your life. Yeah, that is another way to do it. Yeah. And that's how you do it without a case. And the a lot, a lot of guys, I remember when I was traveling with guys who were G five, they would, they would always be, they would talk, they were so happy about the cells they got because they got solitary cells and not only solitary, but they had showers in their cells. So they're like, they don't have to leave ever. They've got everything they need. But on the flip side, they don't leave. Like when you're in one of those cells for an extended period of time, you're not going anywhere. You're not your that sells your life. And there's lots of guys who've done, I know in the feds, I don't know the guys have done that, but I don't know in Texas, I know a lot of states have done that in the past. And I don't know if they're still really doing it, but the like extent years of solitary confinement, because it really, it really messes with people after a time. I'm about to say, could you imagine doing 10 years and then they have the super seg where you don't have human contact? Right. And that's like, I can imagine it. Like, I can, I don't know, I can, I can have. So when I was in seg, I remember like, because I was doing my classes and like, when I have all of my stuff and I still had, I could still communicate with the outside. It really wasn't that bad. Though I did have, I could like communicate with the cells next to me. And like, I could do trades and things like that with the guys in the cells next to me. But even, but honestly, at that time, I could read, I could get books in the mail, I could do my correspondence courses, I could do I got write letters, I got food delivered to me. And I mean, I was like, this is not bad. I got more done in the four days I was in seg than like I had in the past month, just because I, because it was, you know, I didn't have to deal with in and outs. I didn't have to deal with a lot of the stuff that goes on with the general population. But definitely, I think if I had been in there for like a year, I think I would start feeling some of that. I haven't seen anyone for a very long time and start getting really in my head and start making some crazy decisions. Like the way you said, get inside your head and make some crazy decisions. It, you know, there's a phrase, it's like my my, you know, my head is a dangerous neighborhood to hang out in. That's like it, like that's everyone after a while, I feel like their head turns into a pretty dangerous neighborhood after a while. Oh, mine is. And that's yeah, it's just you can't, because you're, if you don't have someone else to kind of bounce your ideas about off of and start realizing, start getting some feedback direct feedback from, I think you can easily get, get into some something. Yeah, I could, like some of the stories I've heard from solitary are people like they end up mutilating themselves because it's something, the idea pops into their head and then they start doing it. And they just start going in and they start doing these things. And it's not like they just like just stab themselves once as slow processes. Yeah. I couldn't imagine. Yeah. I couldn't imagine. Yeah. If you didn't have anything to read or anything to write with, being in solitary confinement would drive you absolutely crazy. They, yeah, like with, you're on Suicide Watch, they just send you in there with that, that blanket, like there's this like, they call it, it's like a, it's supposed to be like the suicide blanket and it looks like a blanket for a horse. And they just send you in there with that. And if you're really, like if you're in that bad of a state, being stuck in that cell and that's freezing cold, that's not going to help. Like you're going to get so much worse, so much, much more quickly. And yeah. You totally are. But it's just, but they don't care because it's, I mean, nobody cares. Right. Except for the person that's going through it. Right. The person who's going through it, their family, the people who care about them, they care a lot, but they're not. The thing is, they, their family and loved ones don't even know what's going on until they usually hear, oh yeah. Well, we put him in SEG and then, you know, he offed himself. So sorry about that. Yeah. The rest of the story is always hidden. Right. Just, it's just interesting. I don't know. And then you take cultural dynamics with your, like not in solitary, but mind you, but like in a regular cell. And I mean, you might learn something about somebody or an entire culture that you never knew before. Absolutely. It's, I've had some really good cellies that have taught me a lot about, I mean, you know, I don't think I would have the perspective I have about prison except for the cellies I've had because they are, you know, I've had ones I don't get along with, I've had ones I don't get, that I do get along with. Even the one who I, that wanted to fight, the one who wanted to fight, I honestly, my thing was, is like, there was, he had, like he had a serious brain injury. Like he was, like he had serious health issues that needed to be addressed and never did. And then his buddies who are in the day room wanted to see him fight me. So they spun him up. And this, like, and I'm, and so it's like, I'm not, it wasn't like I was mad at him. It's, I'm mad that this is the situation that he ended up in. And that's where, that's where it goes. So that's why I would love to see something where there are no cellies, or we're not doing that, because it's not like, it really is not helpful to anyone. No, no, it's not. There was a guy, I always talk about when I think about cellies is there's a guy named Philemon who was at Ramsey unit who he, the first time I met him, he like, he was like, are you an alien? Like he was really had like some serious, like mental issues. And he was very like, he, he openly said like, yeah, I have lots of mental issues. And he, but he also knew like one of the big issues was he knew that he would flip on a hat, like he could turn very quickly. He'd go from like shy, like, like hiding away from everyone to super angry and aggressive. And, but he, you know, he was afraid of that side, because that was the side that got him locked up. And so he had a, he had a celly and they didn't, the cell just came on, came in and just like was like, it's like this, you know, you know, this is my cell, like you, like, you need to stay off out of, you know, stay out of my way, stay out of this. I need these times and you need to back off. And, and so like Philemon being who he was, he was trying to be respectful, but he also like, he was trying to do some art and then spilled ink all over the other guys punk. And then all, all these other things. And finally this cell, he was like, he's like, you know what? I'm sick of it. He's like, next time you come in this cell, you know what time it is. It's like, we're, that's it. And the, and so Philemon's list stands outside the cell door because it was right against the day room. And he's trying to talk to the guy and be like, look, it's, you know, just trying to talk to him, just like talk him out of the fight. And it's not doing any good because the guy's not trying to hear it. Meanwhile, the officer is yelling, you know, trying to count everyone in the day room. And, and Philemon's not moving. He's just still standing there the cell trying to, trying to talk to him. And so the officer comes up to him and taps him on the shoulder and the officer's little old man and then Philemon just turns and just attacks him, beats up the old man, breaks the clipboard over him, knocks him to the floor. And then the inmates who are over there getting counted try and come over and pull Philemon off the officer because they don't know what he's going to do. And then Philemon immediately jumps off and just takes all his clothes off and just runs to the other side of the room. And then they, and then a lieutenant comes in fricking. And then this is when I saw, because I could hear all the ruckus going on in the day room and I looked down and I could see the lieutenant coming in and just jump kicking Philemon across the room. That sucks. Have you ever been in a cell and they gas the day room and you get hit with the gas? I've been hit with the gas like not from the, not in my cell. I've only been, I've been in like hallways and things like that. I've been stuck where they sprayed and threw them out and then all of a sudden the residual started floating towards the cells. So everybody that was in their cell got a rude awakening. Yeah, that sucks. But for those who haven't, who are fortunate enough to not be gassed, when you get gassed, as soon as you start coughing, it doesn't stop. You just don't stop coughing for until like all of the gas and stuff is gone off of in the air, off your clothes, all of it, because it's, you're just going to keep coughing. And it's, yeah, you just can't stop it. It's horrible too. The stuff burns everything. Yeah. And in prisons, they're set up with all sorts of the kitchens, the day rooms, everything, they're set up so that officers can just shoot in gas whenever they want to. They can just fill it up with gas indiscriminately and they'll say straight up, if something happens and the officers feel like they're threatened or whatever, then they'll just fill it up with gas. Right. But they feel threatened every time somebody raises their voice at them. Yeah. Some feel, some will sit there and like just kind of poke inmates, keep on poking them and poking them. And then all of a sudden when they inmates like, you know, like, you better back off. And then all of a sudden they'll, oh, gosh. It's, it's like, yeah. Yeah, they instigate it and then want to, you know, punch the person for it. Right. Baiting, I guess that's what you'd call that. Right. And it's, yeah, the, and that goes into the, like, working as an officer, officers in prison is one of the worst jobs in the world. And so if you sign up for it, generally it's not because of the money or because it's such a great job. It's because you want something, you want something else out of it, to be a bully. The shakedown was produced in luxurious Longmont, Colorado and Vado Elements provided our theme song shakedown. If you want to support us, you can find shakedown shirts, goodies and more at waywardpress.com. That's W-A-Y-W-O-R-D, press.com. If you have ideas for future episodes or cool stuff you want to see us make, let us know in the comments on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram at, at get the shakedown.