 Hello and welcome everybody to this new cultural mobility webinar that we are co-organising today. We are very happy to welcome so many participants. This webinar is dedicated to UK-EU mobility flows with a particular focus on the visual arts. My name is Johan Flock. I'm the director of operations at On The Move and for our visually impaired participants I'm a white man in my mid-40s with a short brown graying hair and facial hair. I'm wearing a blue skirt today, not skirt. You must know that On The Move is the international information network dedicated to artistic and cultural mobility. We gather 67 members from 26 countries and we are celebrating our 20 years anniversary of this year. On The Move is quite well known for providing a lot of free information up-to-date, very regularly, on mobility opportunities, on mobility funding and on The Move advocates for the value of cross-border cultural mobility. As part of our co-funded program, co-funded by the European Union, we propose regularly webinars, webinars that are streamed thanks to our member and partner, AllroundTV, who shares resources and knowledge that are particularly relevant to the cultural field. Today for this webinar, we worked very closely with the arts info point UK and I'm very happy to give the floor to Katie James. Katie. Thank you, Johan. Good afternoon everyone. It's really nice to be here and it's good to see so many. I recognize a lot of names there on the screen and there's some new names there as well that I don't recognize, but it's just great to have you all in the room today. My name is Katie from Arts Info Point UK, which is the UK's mobility information point. I am a white female in her 40s, short brown hair, glasses on today. I've got a blue jumper on. I go by the pronouns she and her. So a bit about Arts Info Point UK. It's an initiative based on a partnership of the four arts councils across the UK, Wales Arts International, Arts Council Northern Ireland and Creative Scotland and Arts Council England. And I think my colleague from Arts Council England is here today, Nicholas Smith. So I'm based at Wales Arts International, which is the International Development Agency of the Arts Council of Wales. So as Arts Info Point UK, we develop free and practical resources to support and welcome international artists to the UK by providing clear and accurate information. We do this through events, webinars with partners and experts on artist mobility, like this event in partnership with On The Move Today, as well as resources like our visa guide for artists visiting the UK for work and by signposting to government resources and other resources through trusted partners and networks that are doing good work around artist mobility as well. It's all on our website and I'll put some links in the chat afterwards. We're developing this work to support the value of international cultural exchange and collaboration and artists who are leading on that to ensure that it continues. Our main focus is to support artists coming to the UK, but we do recognise there is a current need for information. Since the UK left the EU, which was some time ago, but the impact is still ongoing. So we have some developed some resource for artists working in the EU as well. So for outgoing mobility as well. And we also signpost across colleagues and networks and contacts that we have across Europe, including the On The Move Mobility Information Point, of which we're also members of. I know everybody in this room today will have some experience and perspective of some of the challenges and impact of the UK's exit from the EU. We no longer have freedom of movement or access to the single market and sector is needing to adapt in a number of ways and learn new ways of doing things. And I know that this can feel quite daunting for some artists who are trying to work across borders. And that's something that we're really keen to support artists in finding that information. And so in the face of these challenges and more global challenges, including COVID and climate crisis and increasing costs, it just feels really important today that we can have this discussion at an international level to look at the impacts of this across the visual arts sector. So I'm really delighted to be able to partner with On The Move on this today to discuss that. And I'm really looking forward to hearing from a really fantastic panel of experts and as well as hearing from experience across the room, actually. So thank you very much, everyone. And back to you, O'Haraan. Well, thank you, Katie, for these kind words. Just to give you an overview of why we are organising this webinar. I guess these past days, the latest political developments in the UK put back the Brexit conversation in focus, also to try to echo some of the findings of the difficulties that many economic sectors have had these past months and years to navigate these new circumstances. Across 2021, many conversations take place in the performing arts, also in the music industry, and many other creative industry, to raise awareness of these new circumstances and address new needs in terms of transnational EU-UK cultural collaboration. I guess both On The Move and Arts Info Point UK are led or contributed to many events to provide supporting guidance. And as Katie said, the mobility info points have been increasing their effort to better help UK or EU-based arts professionals when dealing with post-Brexit issues, from visas to custom rules. Today, we wanted to focus on the visual arts ecosystem because we see its specificities with a lot of freelance artists, freelance curators, arts in residency programs that are not always equipped to navigate heavy administrative processes, but also because in this particular ecosystem, we see a real drive to maintain fruitful cultural relations. We asked our dear colleague, Veronica Covert, to come and facilitate this conversation together with us and to lead and ask as many questions as possible to our distinguished panelists. Veronica has worked for many Creative Europe projects and most recently she worked for Pearl, the live performance Europe, organization and opera vision. Veronica, I guess it's time for me to give you the floor and I'm sure you can introduce our panelist. Thank you. Thank you very much, Joanne. Thank you as well, Katie, for your introductions, which will cut mine short as I aim to open the floor as quickly as possible to questions. So as Joanne said, my name is Veronica Covert. For the visually impaired, I'm a dark-haired white woman in my 30s wearing a yellow dress and bright lipstick. I have the pleasure of facilitating today's webinar on the mobility flows between EU member states and the UK in the visual arts. So for those of you who have been asleep in the past couple of years, just a very brief socio-political backdrop. In early 2020, the COVID-19 pandemic put a halt to cross-border collaboration in general and to that between the British Isles and the European mainland, which we are interested in here in particular. And at the same time, of course, Brexit re-drew the European map with the United Kingdom withdrawing from the European Union on 31st of January 2020. And now we are interested in seeing that as the borders gradually reopened and travel restrictions and health-related measures were lifted, arts professionals and organizations quickly learned to navigate the new set of rules for traveling, working abroad, shipping and presenting their work. And to come to terms with the fact that while before there was free movement of people and cultural goods, now visas, work permits, the famous ATA Carnet, the customs requirements became the new norm. The cultural sector has proved itself to be very creative and resilient in meeting these challenges and advocating for its actors' needs. But as mentioned before, the conversation has been largely dominated by the performing arts field and it is time to highlight the specificities of the visual arts ecosystem, which beyond its globally connected big players is characterized by individual freelance artists and curators who are relatively isolated and not always well equipped to navigate cumbersome administrative processes. So we're here to investigate these double consequences of COVID-19 and Brexit on mobility flows by focusing on the testimonies of our four panelists. How has all of this affected their respective artistic and curatorial practice? What I hope to do here is zoom out of the northern European dominated narrative and delve into a variety of issues from access to residencies and circulation of artworks and hopefully jointly identify gaps to be filled to pursue meaningful cultural relations between the UK and the EU. So without further ado, let me present our experts. We have with us Alessio Antonioli, who is the Director of Gasworks in London, where he leads a programme of exhibitions, international residencies and participatory events. He's simultaneously also the Director of Triangle Network, which is a worldwide network of visual arts organisations which work together to create artists exchange and build knowledge. And on top, as if this was not enough, in 2022, he was appointed curator at Fundazione Memo in Italy. We are also joined by Theodore Eraira-Guiere. I hope I pronounced that correctly, otherwise slap me on my wrist. He's a multidisciplinary artist who switches practices between print, painting and sculpture, and who himself lives and works between London and Lisbon. His work is held largely, widely in different collections, from MoMA to the British Museum, Moseo Calouche de Bourgou Centre Pompidou, the Tape Special Collections, etc. etc. We have with us Maria Luigia Gioffre, who's also a visual artist, as well as a performer. She develops an interdisciplinary practice informed by Mediterranean anthropology in loss and desire. And she has founded and currently co-directs in Ruins, which is a non-profit association dedicated to contemporary art research in relation to archaeology. Last but not least, to let me introduce you to Paolo Mele, who's a cultural manager and the founder and director of the Contemporary Arts Organization, as well as the director of Cora Contemporary Arts Centre, and the president of Stare, the Italian Association of Artists in Residencies. Thank you, all four of you, for being with us today. Let me kick off this webinar today by asking you, Alessio, from your vantage point, bridging two perspectives working both in Italy and the UK. Can you describe the difficulties in continuing to work with international artists? Are the obstacles that you encounter the same in Italy and the UK? And please also briefly introduce yourself. Hi, everybody. Thank you for the introduction, Veronica. Alessio, as Veronica was saying, director of Gasworks and Triangle Network, and also curating a programme in Rome for the Fondazione Memo, white male with graying hair in his early fifties, I guess, for those that can't see a picture of me. I still think it's difficult to kind of summarise the feelings that one has around the issue of Brexit. And one of profound disappointment, and many people out there would say it's time people like me get over it. But as an Italian living in the UK and having lived in the UK for almost over 30 years, the impact that Brexit had and continues to have is both financial, political, but I think the first thing that hits you is what goes straight to your stomach, which is a sort of like a sense of this act of separation being something that I think as a European who has benefited from the open borders, there's a sort of like a sense of disappointment and a sense of loss, a sense of loss of a connection that I think, and maybe if there's a lesson, this is one, one that we took for granted, because we felt that things were going to progress in one direction, but we've learned the opposite. And I think, yes, I think we should talk about the complications that Brexit has had on our activities, but a lot of them are emotional and they continue to be emotional. And I think they are for me as an organizer of activities, but also for many of the artists. And I think also, and perhaps this, well, actually maybe perhaps judgmental, but I guess as a small organization, Gasworks is a very small organization in London with very limited budgets. The reliance on working with limited means and being able to amplify things by working together, whether it was working together with peers in the UK or within Europe is what allowed a small organization through its network, through its connections with artists to deliver on a much larger scale. And what the Brexit has done is really kind of undermined that. So I think, and also I think that the fact that we've had, as you clarified, you know, mentioned at the beginning, the impact of Brexit in the middle of it has sort of like clouded a little bit, the sort of the clarity of what Brexit actually meant, because now it's all embroiled. Is it Brexit? Is it pandemic? Is it the financial crisis? Is the energy bills problems? And they've all kind of come together. And it's creating a very difficult atmosphere for me based in the UK. And I'm actually better placed to talk about that than in Rome, because I guess my connection with Rome is more about delivering an exhibition, and it's a public private foundation. So I think it's a very different relationship to working with artists, because it does, you know, the one in Rome is as comes from private funding and has private means. But as a publicly funded organization in the UK, and therefore very much linked to the public spending in the UK, access to fundraising that comes from funding here and internationally. And when I say internationally, I talk about the UK, one of the last projects that we were able to deliver with EU funding ended at the end of last year. And it was through a partnership with the Royal College here in the UK, and many organizations in Europe. And that was really the end of it, in terms of how we can, as I was saying earlier, amplify the little work that we do, work with artists in a much wider way, and also think more ethically, because again, when you're really small, you rely on people being overstretched, overworked, underpaid a lot of the times. But actually joining forces is what allows us to kind of put budgets together, to put resources together, to put efforts together, to put minds together in order to be able to deliver something bigger. And we are very worried that we're not going to have those opportunities again. So I think maybe that's a place to kind of leave it and open it to the rest. I don't know, Veronka, if you want me to say anything else. But one of the things that happened recently that doesn't necessarily refer to artists, but it's very much part of the arts ecology is that we have been trying to recruit a new member of staff for Gasworks. And of course, as an international organization that really has one foot in the UK, and the rest all over the world, not just Europe, we've had to, for example, for the first time think, oh, we have applicants from the EU, and we have no idea what it would mean to then get, you know, start talking about rights to remain, what visa that needs to be in place. And I think there's a sense of do I even go down that way, because it's probably going to be unaffordable to a small organization. And also unaffordable in terms of money, but also unaffordable in terms of the time that it takes a small group of people to then manage a much bigger bureaucracy in order to continue to continue to be so internationally, to maintain the composition that is so international. Saying that, and I'm talking about this doom and gloom, it's hard not to, but of course, we are also extremely determined to go against the grain, to go against the sort of nationalist perspective that is sort of being enforced on us politically and financially. So this is why I thought it was important to be part of this conversation. And I hope that we can get more out of each other through, I don't know, find whether they're loopholes or whether they are opportunities to work together, because I think it's completely necessary. And what was at one point a nice thing to do in terms of working internationally as a way of kind of making a richer UK or enriching each other through dialogue is gone beyond that. It's become radical. It's become politically challenging, and therefore even more needed. So I'm hoping that the conversations take away the doom and gloom and try to sort of figure out a way in which we can inject some energy and try and move forward in spite of what the politics enforces on us. Thank you, Alessio, for this very rich first intervention. And indeed, I can hear in your words, your very right to open up the conversation, not just to artists and curators, but the whole value chain, so to speak, by talking about staffing and recruitment processes and an ecosystem that has always rightly prided itself on being very diverse and international, I can imagine is deeply affected by the fact that all of a sudden it cannot as easily live up to those same standards, which brings me to a very different case study. Maria Luigia, your work in ruins is very much anchored in the Mediterranean and you consider it as a cultural base for cultural exchange. Of course, not just factual, but also in everything that it brings with it in terms of our dreams, in terms of our expectations, projections, etc. And it has been so for the UK as well. Can you tell us a little bit about how in ruins the way that you run your research residency, if I'm not mistaken, has been affected by Brexit, by the fact that it is not as easy to host British artists. Do you have a case study that you could share with us? Okay, hello everyone. And yes, we started in ruins actually with the link with the UK, because I founded the residency since I moved back to Italy from London. And the main link, the main network we had was with the obviously among universities and we sent our open call through the channel of university. So at the beginning we had quite a lot, quite a notable response, I would say, by UK artists or whoever, UK based artists. While as I was saying last time during our little meeting, like drafting meeting and after Brexit, this percentage of artists applying to the residency, I don't know if because of the Brexit, but the number of applicants is less than before in terms of UK provenance. And first of all, this is, I would say it's a fact. It's something that I can easily notice. And another thing is obviously the COVID time made some creating some issues with hosting artists from UK in Italy, because some rules were different. One among all was Amy Albright, I will text the name of the artist then. And she did the residency with us just in the middle of the pandemic. And for example, she had to wait five days of quarantine after entering the Italy. And this created some logistic problems in terms of like hosting an artist for five days, she's quarantining, she has to stay alone, we need to bring just a few little things that anyway, are a problem. But however, I can also say that differently from making an exhibition that can create some problem of production, for example, transportation or delay in the sending stuff and all these kind of problems. The residency, the mobility zone, this is the title of our webinar. I think the mobility of people in terms of when doing a residency is not a lot affected in my experience. Also this year, for example, we had an artist from US, which is not Europe. So the kind of problems they face are similar. But if you stay not for a long time, so you can also have like not a working permit. So it's not very, very affected. And I think on a way this can be a nice solution to create a cultural exchange, rather than making exhibition. So obviously this is not a good point, because exhibition have value and obviously this affected the market and the culture and intellectual exchange. But on another way, the residency is also a way to create a temporary community with UK artists or UK based artists or Italian artists in UK without having such, I don't know, how can I say, such issues we were mentioning. So yes, this is one thing I've been reflecting on. And one other is that as an artist myself and also my fellow Nicola, he lived in London as well. So we have a lot of network there. But on another way, universities and institutions are less responsive to create the, I mean, at least in our experience to create collaboration or any kind of formal way to create this temporary community. Although we just recently had a collaboration with UCL. So there are some situations that make this available. But on another way, for example, when I try to connect with some department of my previous university before Brexit, it was much more easy, quick, also that the way they were responding, the way to fix a collaboration, whatever, while now it's more slow, more doubtful. And this is my experience, I don't know. On a way to create a cultural exchange in the Mediterranean with UK, it can be also in terms of ideas, in terms of theoretical terms, an interesting point because although UK is not literally in the Mediterranean, but the European Mediterranean for the most of it. So it's a tricky point that can lead to interesting discussions, I think. Thank you, Maria Luigia. And before I pass on some of your interesting points, I forgot to ask you to describe yourself physically. So if you would do that, I love asking this question to visual artists, by the way. Sorry, say again to describe myself. If you could very briefly describe yourself physically to those who might watch and are visually impaired. Okay, myself, sorry, I didn't understand myself how I look. Yes. Oh, okay. As a person, yes. I'm Maria Luigia. I'm Italian, born in Italy, in southern Italy. And I have brown hair and glasses, and I'm sitting on a chair in my living room. And, yeah, and outside it's cloudy. Thank you. Thank you. Paolo, while Maria Luigia was speaking, I also thought of you because I found it very interesting. It was as if she was already pointing towards possible workarounds. She seemed to be saying that access to residencies was not as deeply affected by Brexit in terms of mobility as, for instance, organizing international exhibitions is. Have you had the same experience at Stade or is there something that you could share with us in relation to this? Yes, it's my turn, I suppose, or just a brief answer to this point. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this is true. There is no, I mean, that the impact on residency is not so important to like in other fields, like, for example, production schools or mobility of products and artworks at home. But, yeah, I mean, in general, yeah, this is a good point. Till now, we can still use some, let's say, expedients of the low hollow house to use, for example, using BISA mobility. It don't go through the BISA issue and avoid BISA issue with, for example, some touristic visa that doesn't require a long process. So, yeah, this is a good point. But anyway, before facing some of the important cultural impacts of Brexit and into the heart, I would like to start my consideration starting from what I could define a general sentiment. And here the general sentiment is that it's more and more complex to start into major new projects in collaboration with UK organization and involving the UK artists. Because, I mean, it's a very simple, let's say, question. As I would say, we as cultural operator and the cultural manager, we already did quite, let's say, tricky job and difficult job in order to organize exhibition and to work in a field where there is no with limited resources, basically, economical resources. And so, if we have the opportunity to choose to avoid any boring bureaucratic issues or like insane matter about BISA or custom duties, it's clear that generally we choose the easy way. And the easy way in this case is collaboration with other countries from Europe and not from UK. But yeah, there is an answer to all this and the answer, I mean, I think that is always art. So, if you want, I mean, I can continue with my reflection or do you want to stay just on this? I'm very happy for you to continue on your reflection. I think it is very important that you center this sentiment as well, because in the end, we're also here to talk about the future of mobility between European Union countries and the UK. And will we see a gradual departure from one to the other? I think it is very interesting that you say that residencies which are still rooted in the values of international exchange and in-person collaboration continue to be a breeding ground for artists. You also talked about production costs, we will return to that. Let me first, very, very down to earth, ask you to also describe yourself physically and perhaps that very interesting image showing behind you. Yeah, thank you. I'm Paolo Mele, I'm the director of Cora Contemporary Art Center, Rambon, both an Italian organization buzzed in the south of Italy in the department of Lecce. And I'm a 41 years old white Italian male born, I mean, in the south of Italy, but I don't drink any wine and beer, so it's not easy to justify that I'm an Italian. So it looks like another man from another country. Anyway, yeah, on my background, what you are seeing, as I say before, art is the answer. And art is what you can watch, what you can watch on my background. It's an artwork by Andrew Friend, it's a video produced by Random in 2015 as part of the program investigation on the extreme land, research program launched by Random in 2013. We hosted Andrew Friend, I choose this video because we hosted Andrew Friend, he's an English artist, a couple of time residency in the past in our organization. And I think that this work is really connecting some way to what we are discussing, because as you can see, we are the, this is the extreme point of Italy on the geographic side. This is the last rocks in the Mediterranean side, the connection between Adriatic Sea and the Union Sea. And you can see sometimes Andrew, the artist, swimming into this sea, trying to cross this imaginary border dividing the two seas. So Andrew with this simple gesture is inviting us to reflect on the ambiguity between official boundaries and perceived boundaries. The video also documents the acts of simply swimming in the space and encroaching this imaginary or what we call according to the international geographic organization is the line dividing the two seas, but for sure it's an imaginary border. So the artist is trying to here to reflect on the absurdity of border sometimes. And the absurdity of border is what exactly what we are discussing here after many years of collaboration and international projects in creative Europe, mobility exchange, European Erasmus projects and whatever. Here we are talking about a different situation. I will start from, but we'll continue with my personal bio and personal experience. I've been in the UK for the first time, not for the first time, but in 2013, 12 and 13 I collaborated with New Art Exchange in Nottingham, starting to develop with New Art Exchange a program that right now is not possible anymore. It was an exchange program based on the Erasmus program. So it was a program that followed to the British young artists, creators to travel all around Europe and to other people coming from other countries to come in, in UK and in Nottingham being part of this European volunteer service. This program is not anymore supported by European Union for UK. So, and my presence in the UK right now, I mean, it was just possible thanks to this program and developing this program. So, like me, other young people right now can be in this situation of they cannot come in UK for any working experience connected to European funds or volunteer experience or traineeship or European entrepreneurship program, all program founded by European Union. This is one of the important difference. So we can come in UK and people from UK can come in Italy or in other countries, but can't, we have no money anymore from European Union to support this kind of mobility. Recently, for example, the European Union launched another program after Iportonus. They launched a new program supporting cultural mobilities and this doesn't affect the UK. So this is an important question, but let me go quickly on a couple of other points. It seems that the economic and cultural effects of Brexit is often underestimated. Before this panel, I did some research on the web, going through some of the main portal art platform in Italy, such as Art Tribune or Exit Art or any other platform talking about art and discussing about art and typing Brexit. You have no results of recent article since 2021 or 2020. So it means that there is no article, no research. So it means that there is no or no one right now investigating the real effects of Brexit on our sector. But at the same time, it happens that the art imports in UK continues to decrease, bringing the UK global share of our market down of the 17% last year and it was the lowest in the decade. And this probably will be even higher. Thank you. Thank you, Paolo. Thank you for already doing much of the literature review that some of you might want to read up on in the ensuing report. That's very interesting. And we will come back to it. Excuse me for interrupting you. No worries. I did want to ask a few in relation to your very interesting point about imaginary boundaries. You have one foot in London where you currently are and another in Portugal in Lisbon. And I do wonder, we talked a lot about the general sentiment of the schism between the UK and the EU in the visual arts sector. But I do wonder how very physically you deal with it as a visual artist between these two places yourself. Has your practice changed? Have you changed the balance between the time that you spend in one place or the other? Do you have the same opportunities in Lisbon, London? Yeah, I know that balance of time is something that's constantly being negotiated and obviously that's evolving as we speak because I still don't feel like any of us really know quite where we're at. And there's a sense of kind of flailing in order to try and work things out. And obviously I'm speaking as an individual, I'm an artist. And so there's that sense of being alone and trying to work things out. And yeah, what that sense of being in between two places, I guess Brexit made me feel like I'd made the wrong life decisions that I'd made a mistake. And this is actually, you know, obviously I wanting to do that to enrich my life and enrich my kind of time on earth. And it became incredibly difficult. And I can't tell you how many migraines, headaches I've had from obviously you listed, I'm mostly a painter and printer and sculptor. So I'm immersed in the physical world. And that's obviously one of the most difficult things to traverse with this kind of new reality of Brexit. I get my paper from Somerset in England, I get my some equipment from the Netherlands, some from France, I get other bits from Portugal. And so coordinating that as an individual, as an artist, is almost a full time job. And so that general sense of what it's like to be in between two places is you, there's more unease, there's a general malaise. And I think also obviously one of the things that for me anyway, as an artist, it's really important to me is there's what I've lost that informality, that general casualness, that clear vista isn't there in that same way. And to obviously coordinate all those material needs takes a hell of a lot of planning. And obviously stress from that. So yeah, I don't know where we're heading with it, touching on what Alessio said, it feels we felt like part of this kind of progressive project. And obviously that it feels like things are going to kind of going backwards. And obviously for many reasons. But and then so there's this kind of aspect and yeah, that's sense of informality or chance informing or practice, etc. And so I feel like there's also you have arrived in this kind of absurd moment where you're suddenly having to deal with what to me on an emotional and personal front felt like a fairly imaginary border, and something that come from the past. And something taken for granted. So I think I have also seen because we did take it for granted, speaking to people in both countries, there's an appetite to suddenly get to London or the UK because it is kind of difficult and there's still things to offer them. There's definitely an appetite from UK based London based kind of contemporary friends and colleagues to get elsewhere as well. And never has it become more apparent that we live on an island. So yeah, I think that's I think that's a wonderful response. The other you talked about the materiality and the imaginary quality and the way that one underpins the other. But before we delve deeper into that, can you talk about very briefly your own physical materiality for our visually impaired viewers, viewers. So just. So I'm a white male in his 30s. I've got short, mousy, blondy, brownie hair. And like Johan, I'm wearing a shirt today. Thank you for that. Would anyone want to jump in right here, Maria Luija, Alessio, talking about once, well, how to grapple with both the very concrete material, logistical administrative processes on the one hand and on the other, what you so eloquently underlined, the fact that it is, first of all, the emotional, the psychological cost and not having completely come to terms with the new reality. How do you navigate the two? Maybe I can say something. I think I think I've been finding it quite paralyzing. And I know I'm not the only one I know a lot of colleagues have felt the same. It's almost like it's too big, particularly if you're an individual or if you're a small organization to kind of figure out how to approach this. But also there are being some and Paolo hinted at this. And I think he's right. And I was saying earlier as well, you know, there's a resourcefulness that comes from working in the arts. They always find the solution. And actually, that's the whole idea of being creative. It's about pushing boundaries. However, you know, the visa issue is already a massive thing. For example, since Brexit, the way we have to work with artists from Europe, from other parts of Europe, I still think Britain is in Europe, is we have to kind of rethink of the budgets and present them to the border the UK border agency in a way that that as Theo was saying earlier, can removes any sort of casual way of like working with friends or being able to just sort of like pull resources together. There's a sort of like a record that there are these sort of stringent requirements that at one point, because we were one, you could easily feel you could just, you know, find a way around it. Now that there is this very rigidly marked distinction, it's not just a question of, for example, one of the things that I think of as somebody who runs an overseas is, you know, maybe there is a way for me to just find a way around, but am I putting the artists in danger? Will that affect the way, you know, if something goes wrong and they get stopped next time they come in? Will that compromise them? So I'm having to sort of then, you know, take on a level of bureaucracy and a level of change, a bureaucracy that also requires different funding, different ways of, you know, certain things you can do for a certain amount of money, that's all, if not doubled, certainly increased considerably. And there's also this sense of responsibility, because these very complex rules that have come on board are something that you need to observe for yourself, but also for the people that you're, for the person that you're inviting, for the people, the person, whatever, if it's a group or as an individual. So this is what I find sort of paralyzing, and in the sense, you know, you feel like, oh, let's not even bother, it's just too big for us. And that is extremely, extremely sad, I think, and kind of almost, you know, does what the government wants us to do, which is to stop communicating, but we do it out of like exhaustion. And also, sort of like you end up admitting defeat, even though of course you don't want to, and of course, we try and do things differently, but it's a big thing, it's a big thing. Absolutely, absolutely. And in a way, the weight, the new weight of these administrative processes begs the question of how strong the desire to collaborate actually is, because British funding by the British Council, etc. concentrates more and other vistas on Africa, on Asia, than it has even before done on the European Union. Creative Europe no longer funds, mobility between the UK and the EU. So new forms, new experimental forms of funding have to be found. Yeah, just to go on that, because it's something that occurred to me, even when Paula was saying, you know, the fact that we can't invite people to do job experience, to do traineeship and all of that, it means that the people that are now able to travel are those that, you know, so much of the public arts in the UK and in Europe, after the Second World War, was to democratize access to art, make it available to all of the people that, you know, were able, because of their interest, because of their passion, they were, you know, they could get opportunities. And that's what public funding is there to do. The minute that these go, the only people that can travel are those that are in a very different economic group that have access to things. So you're kind of going back to a situation where only the privileged few can have access to this mobility, and everybody else is stuck within their locations, simply because these opportunities that were democratizing art have now vanished. And we can't, you know, I think it's, we shouldn't expect the market to do that. I mean, the market should do it, but it's difficult to put pressure on the market to do it. It should be much easier, or shouldn't be like our rights to be able to put it on the governments who look at citizens, but we know how governments are operating at the moment, and citizenship is, doesn't seem to be a priority, or even a focus. Sorry. It's just a little bit of a deal again. Yeah, I should stop talking. You most certainly shouldn't. Maria Luigia. Yes, no, I just wanted to add something, but maybe Alessio told very well, you know, this fact that the UK for the last 10 years, at least the memory I have also, when living there, it was the sense of democratizing the access to art. And also for these was one of the main countries doing that, especially London. And I think the impact that the general sentiment we talked about is getting stronger also because of that, because it was a sort of a center, I mean, of Europe in terms of culture and the art making. And yes, we are obviously, this is now moving in other cities and in other capitals, but the impact is strong because of this. And also the desire also, I think, to still create bridges and still, I mean, try to fight these borders. And it's because the link that has been created in the previous years through artists, through art workers and whatever is strong. It's not like, I don't know, there are some other places outside, I don't know, I think, I mean, anyway, this is my thought. Yes, Alessio told very well, I think, because I was saying there are some other little countries that are outside Europe or whatever, but the point is that UK was one of the main cultural producer in these terms of, especially contemporary art as well. I don't know how Fritz has gone now, but I mean, all the museum, all the art scene was in a lot of art scene was in the UK. So it's difficult to face this now, without the consideration and all the issues we analysed there now. It does indeed redraw the map, as we said, Maria Luigia. I do wonder, I mean, we cannot unwind the clock, but if all four of you could magically request one thing, be it easier application processes, be it administrative support, be it extra staff, where do you see the biggest obstacle in continuing the cultural exchange and the mobility between the UK and EU in your specific context, both individual and organisational? Who would like to take the floor first? Paolo perhaps. From my point of view, I think that the priority right now is to find a solution for the increasing costs of transport, transportation from UK and the costs for the, I mean, production costs for the for residencies and transportation costs for artworks produced outside UK or from UK to bring in the Europe. So this is one of the priorities right now, because if in a creative way we can avoid and find a solution to mobility issues for a short-term period, this is impossible when we talk about duty and DIT that increased from 5 to 10 percent and so on. So I think that we should consider and we should push politics to find a solution on a better exchange for professionals and artworks. A very valuable point that we will take up in our policy recommendations. Thank you, Paolo. Theodore. Well, maybe it's too much of a larger ask, but if we're not turning the clock back, it's yeah, I guess obviously it's going to be touched on by Paolo, but the absurdity of the kind of dealing with that border and that obviously affecting flow of people, but of goods and artworks, etc, and I can't, I don't want to be doom or gloom either. I can't see a solution by the very nature of what a border is. It will create those problems. It's not something that can be quantitatively improved. It can't be quantitatively changed. It's a qualitative alteration and but yeah, it's the absurdity of that border and yeah, I don't know if that's too much of a bigger change and I am asking for the clock to be turned back, but yeah. Alyssa, you're muted. Hi, hi, hi. Just taking on what Theo and Paolo were saying, but also looking at the comment of Tin Tin Wulia Donoeifei pronouncing rightly, saying that UK was always denied to them because they had its own visa. I think one of the things that I've noticed in actually reading the papers in the last few days, the question of Brexit has keeps coming up and there was a big demonstration in London at the weekend about sort of reversing Brexit and of course it's probably never going to be reversed, but I think what we can do is continue the pressure because if we continue to stay uncomfortable with it, that's the problem. I think one of the things that I guess these governments want to do, or certainly those that are voted for Brexit is almost for it to become so normalized that we just accept it as part of life and this is what it is and I think that this permanent sense of uncomfortability with it is what allows us to keep pushing and to have this conversation and to go like, this is not right, this does not feel good, this is not what we feel is normal, this is not progress because I think that this will perhaps, if not reverse things, which it might not happen, it might start kind of creating holes in it in this border that might be hernias in the border that we can exploit, that we can create by keep pressing at it and that's the only thing that gives me, you know, with all my doom and gloom that I've been talking about, that gives me sort of some sense, it's this sort of like staying with the uncomfortability and keep putting pressure and Carol Tong is already putting pressure on the labour front bench and piece, she says. And I will open up the conversation in just a moment but I did want to point out the very valuable point in the discussion saying that we mentioned several times during this conversation that there was a freedom of movement of people and cultural goods that we have taken for granted, but that is a very European and Western privilege to hold. This has not been granted to everyone at all point in our time so the fact that we are so incredibly disillusioned and disappointed now only puts us on the same level if at all with the rest of humanity. Maria Luigia, would you like to come in before we open the floor? Yeah. I have nothing to add to be honest and in terms of, I don't know, other considerations in terms of I want to link also myself to the question of this, I remember the name, let me check in the chat, Tintin Wula, I'm sorry if the pronunciation is wrong, that and I think that I didn't consider it before and that this fact of the Schengen that absolutely discreet, for example, from him and the sensation of being in a Brexit situation was always like that. So discreet other levels of discussion and this general sentiment on whatever and because we now feel this new but there is a portion of passport holders who actually never had this kind of difference on the way and another consideration I wanted to have was about like before the democratization of studies and about the studying in the UK. I graduated in the UK and for me it was quite easy to have access in the education either because of the fee because they were paying us in a home and you and also because moving in London was easy and when you know just take a flight and you move on a way and somehow while I imagine for example if I wanted to study now even for example if I imagine a PhD would be like the process would be much much more difficult and and so I want to think maybe it's not this is the point because we are talking about mobility but about the the future of education in the UK you know also because some of the main university of Europe were art education, some art institution, art university were in UK, I think Royal College, St Martin and whatever all these kind of goldmines and so on so I imagine how the the future of this education will be and who will be the students because apart the international fee is doubled so I mean again who can have access to this education and I think also I don't have the scam in my mind exactly but if I think about Erasmus for example and this is another point and yes very good point Maria Luigia of course the training of the next generation of artists is a very important point in mobility and deserves further focus and attention. I would like to read out Tomoko Freeman's question in the chat. They ask despite the fact of the current difficult situations could you please share any examples if you're developing any UK Europe projects at the moment either one of you experts is there something that you can highlight? Well I'm not at the moment but I developed a project just in the middle of in the passage starting from 2019 to 2021 it was a project founded by the Ministry of Culture that has a particular grant for international projects and international promotion of Italian art so we had this grant in order to support the production of an artworks by Celine Condorelli that is Italian artist based in London and so the project was quite complex and with different exhibition all around Europe and for exhibition Celine did the new piece of artwork so it's kind of cumulative artworks that at the end become part of the collection of macro museum in Rome. What has happened that we started the project in 2019 and after a while we had to face to all what I mentioned before basically so it was difficult to import the artworks from the Tia Museum in Spain or from Italy or to move the artworks of Celine from other countries to London for the exhibition at South London Gallery in some for example for some pieces it was easier to make another piece that to move the existing piece so this is a double point economic as I say I mean three point economic bureaucratic we lost a huge amount of time going around all these questions about transportation cost visa issue and whatever and then it affects as well the future possibility to imagine in the frame for example of this specific grant by the Ministry of Culture new collaboration with UK organization and in particular doing exhibition in the UK the only way is to produce artwork in UK and to keep that artwork in UK and then to produce new artworks in other countries sometimes it's easier and cheaper and I mean healthier for some of us so yeah possibly more ecological yeah probably well but I mean it's a lot of work so it's something that we didn't used to to face before so right now it's before as I say before to say okay should I should I really want to go through this or better I will choose a partner in I don't know UK in another country in Europe or where these process are easier sometimes it's easier I mean with other countries not only in Europe but you know from Mediterranean sides can be easier so yeah this is this is pity and yeah about what you asked it before about you know that I remember that when I was in in in New York living in New York we spent with our foreign community we spent a huge amount of time talking about visa issue how did you get your visa what kind of visa you get who is your lawyer how much did you pay for your visa so I'm I'm afraid this will happen as well for people coming in the UK trying to find that to spend time in this boring conversation just in order to I mean be free of being in in the country I mean it's the same that happens in all the rest of the world so as you should you correctly say we are privileged in Europe and we are talking about you know people with a mainly privileged but you know it's we can love it in just in a while absolutely Paolo thank you for sharing your perspective and I think we have hit a nerve here as the chat has been buzzing with comments and questions so I would like to open the floor and ask any one of you to raise your digital hand and ask any questions or share comments with us now I will just read out Carl Chappell's question if that's fine unless he wants to come in very narrow question here and apologies if I missed this at the start but is anyone aware of recent published guidance regarding exporting works from UK to EU also regarding shipping work for exhibitions which may or may not sell and therefore may or not may not be brought back possibly Katie James from Arts Info Point UK could you come in on that is that something that you can comment on yes I have I have had conversations with Carl about this previously and we've sort of helped him well you know try to get some information from UK government who does have some very initial pages on their website about working in Europe for the visual arts and across different art form sectors actually um I think and I'm aware I'm not aware of anything specifically visual arts I know that maybe Paula from C-Van might want to talk to this I think she's on the call here I'm certainly aware of other organizations that have produced some guidance about working in the EU that's in principle some of it may carry across to the visual arts but not in specific specificity so but I think that I can see that it is something that is definitely in demand and it's something that we'll be looking at to develop as well about coming to the UK and we'd be you know really interested in supporting or you know discussing this with anybody that would like to you know to look into that about outgoing mobility as well and we do link to different mobility and for points where there is where they are in you know say if an artist is going to um there is a network of mobility points across Europe so if an artist is going to France for example or to Germany then we can you know hook them up with the mobility input point in that country who can then hopefully give them some advice but it is a very specific area of work but I think he's um needing some um some input there and we'll definitely be looking into it so yes thank you Katie uh we'll I'll be thank for for it. Kimen please do for all what do you like to come in? Hi thank uh thank you my name's Clemeni I am a director of D6 Culture that's all right I quite like it with that pronunciation uh D6 Culture and Transit we're based in Newcastle um minds of the panel but also I guess people who are present it's the question of mobility so at D6 we're visual arts producers we currently lead a creative Europe programme alongside two British council programmes one in Ukraine or rather now here not not in Ukraine and one working with artists in exile in Jordan and in Istanbul so previously we would fund our international research through UK based European funds for developing markets so we would have market development funding to do that or we would work through the iportuna schemes to share practice through international um mobility that way my question is do we've just been we've just persuaded so I have a question at the end of this but we have just persuaded one of our combined authorities to give us some support to attend some international conferences because we argue that actually to work internationally we need to be able to still develop our practice and there is no other way of funding this now that we are not part of these European programmes so I guess my question is is are people aware of other programmes that will fund international development not the projects even but just the international development development to go to a festival or to meet somebody that was my question anyone among our experts or the other attendees aware of such a thing sorry I didn't get the last question can you say again I followed they are the discourse but I didn't get the final question from my question Maria was um we can no longer in the UK access iportunus um Erasmus is no longer open to us we used to have UK money from the structural funds to fund business development which we could use so now in the UK there is no money for research but for us to travel externally for research or to invite artists here for research because the UK is no longer eligible for these European programmes so my question was has anybody come across any other travel grants or research grants that can be used for development you should go through the single country this is the tricky point right now so for example in Italy if Italian council is is open to the UK no yeah yeah for example in Italy there is a the Italian council supporting with very small money research projects or residency projects for artists and creators so uh Italian artists can apply but it's just the Italian artists that can apply not your organisation from so from Europe I think that you would the the ways to go through the single country the embassy and the foreign affairs like this but there is nothing specific at the moment that's useful thank you I can see Lisa Kinner Kinner's hand raised would you like to come in yes I I don't know if I put my camera on or if I stay like that I'm fine you may of course you may of course put your camera on thank you I can't okay never mind it doesn't work I work for Flemish Arts Institute in Belgium we are an expertise centre for the visual arts performing arts and music sector in Flanders and we were just granted a subsidy from the Flemish actually from Europe but via the Flemish government that is called BAR BAR the Brexit Adjustment Reserve so my question is first to a European partners organisation have you also heard about are you also eligible did you also get that kind of money and on the UK side that money is is a adjustment reserve so we European countries and especially those who are most impacted by Brexit namely I guess France Belgium the Netherlands maybe Denmark I mean all those countries around the North and sea give can can can can can apply for that money to go back to the to the new normal as they say so reestablish contacts networks with professionals in the UK and our country so I find this very interesting and also sadly enough it's only on one side but we are planning a series of visits professional visits with professionals from Flanders to the UK and also inviting professionals from the UK to come to Belgium for let's say like a visits program to reestablish those connections and those networks so I was also wondering because I that's also why I'm here first I'm very curious to get in touch with people in the UK to inform and see what we can do together and also other partners on European side if if if you heard about those bar subsidies thank you thank you very much Lisa for pointing out this very interesting tool and it is quite quite interesting to see that it is bilateral funding opportunities that seem to take the place of the European Union that is no longer operating in this area Sebastian Hoffmann you shared very interesting links in the chat and it is time for me to give you the floor thank you yeah just commenting actually on the Brexit adjustment reserve I represent touring artists the German mobility information point and we also received EU funding via this Brexit adjustment reserve and we'll use this money in the now and in the next years to further develop our information and consultation services on cross border mobility between Germany and the UK and I also shared the better version of the website of our services in the chat we call it brexit info point which is kind of like a subsection of our general services of touring artists which are available for mobility from anywhere in the world to to Germany and the other way so just for your information that luckily we also received some money and we actually cooperating with our partners in Flanders to look at the mobility information point in Flanders and of course with arts info point UK on shared content so some of the texts that we're producing will also be made available on the websites of our international partners thank you very much Sebastian do we have any further questions comments no perhaps any last words from our experts before I give the word to you on to close today's webinar may maybe can you hear me yes yes just just to say you know for for many of us in the UK we were meant to hear tomorrow for those that are publicly funded what our grand settlement for next year is but it's been delayed because of course we have a prime minister that was only sworn in few hours ago and I think this is is adding to the uncertainty that so many of us are feeling at the moment because we don't you know we know there's going to be funding cuts coming but we don't know how much we don't know how it works so we've been holding our breath and we were told that tomorrow we would hear and then today we got told that it will be delayed so I think we are in a sort of like moment of sort of you know we stopped emotion and and I would I I don't know if I speak for many of us but certainly speak for for ourselves a lot of our a lot of our problems well a lot of a lot of our ideas are put on hold are shelved until we know what's going on but we will be active very soon one way or another and I think that once we have at least a little bit of certainty locally then for so many of us we will continue to have our interest and our focus looked at not just at our locality but also beyond so yeah I also I just want to say for the record normally I'm a very positive optimist person but today it's really it's really the wrong day but that's not how I normally am for those of you know you that don't know me but you know we we we're moving and we're ready to move it's uh it's there's been a lot of setbacks that's all thank you Alessio we'll hold our breath with you thank you yeah thank you Alessio and and thank you Veronka for for facilitating the conversation I just want to acknowledge that there is frustration because probably many of you would like to share both your personal story stories from your organization if you if you work for one and I hope there will be other opportunities also to reconvey and continue these conversations as we see they continue to evolve even at political level and hopefully for goods I mean I'm too too not to quote for you but in his line to say maybe we have positive perspective at some point of re-establishing frames that allow for more you know more fluid flows let's put it this way I want to thank Alessio I want to thank Theo I want to thank Marielle Luigia and Paolo for sharing their own stories and testimonies and points of view it has been mentioned already by Veronka that and and my colleague Marie that a report will be published later on this year on this very topic of UK EU mobility flows and we'll make sure that not only the the words that were said today are reflected in this publication but also that the desk research and all the work that is carried out by our colleagues from the mobility info points including Katie and Lisa and Sebastian etc are also contributing to building a state of the arts and we will be drafting policy recommendations for EU institutions to make sure not only many voices are heard in the UK but also on the European continental European side I want also to share with you that these many information were shared in the chat but we gathered a couple of resources pointing out reports like the SIVAN report and many other interesting readings so we will put an info sheet together that will be published on the move website so you can go and find links to examples organizations or reports that were mentioned today or that really nourished the the preparation of this conversation and then I want to thank you all for participating and hopefully we will connect soon don't forget to subscribe to on the move newsletter you know it's always good to to receive directly in your mailbox a lot of mobility opportunities and news from you know the international cultural field thank you very much