 Hi everybody and welcome to the Vicky Zoom presentation about with an update on Cuba, which we would call Cuba today. Let me just say a little bit about who I am and who our speaker is. My name is Sandy Baird and I've been a member of a group that I founded in 1991 called the Cuban American Friendship Society. I first went to Cuba in 1981 when the Soviets were still there and became transfixed actually by interest in Cuba. It's a totally different society, one that the United States has been hostile to since Fidel Castro marched into Havana on January 1st, 1959 and established what was then a socialist regime. I think the United States has always called it a communist regime, and that is the Communist Party is in charge of Cuba and has been since 1959 and that brought the immediate hostility of the United States, which has been hostile to Cuba ever since. And I have attempted in my small way to make friends with the Cuban people. I believe that the United States really shouldn't be hostile to any people in the world, much less our nearest neighbors in Havana, 90 miles or in Cuba, 90 miles away. So since then, really since 1981, I've attempted to understand the US foreign policy toward Cuba, to understand why there's such hostility, but more important how to conduct citizen diplomacy to open up Cuba to our friendship and people who feel friendly toward the Cubans. And this is part of the presentation because Cuba is very much back in the news, the Trump with the opening that President Obama made during his presidency, when President Trump came into power, he again made life miserable for the Cuban people by having an increased embargo and sanctions. And basically those sanctions in my mind are an act of war against the Cuban people. President Biden, although he said he would lighten up, has not lightened up, he has continued the harsh policies toward Cuba including trying to recently fund, help, assist with protests against the government. Now, one more comment about that before I turn it over to Kurt, in that I don't pretend or romanticize the Cuban government in any way. I do regard the Cuban government as the government of Cuba, however, and that if people want to protest and they have reason to do so, obviously they should protest. However, there has been evidence recently that those protests as all protests in Cuba are aided and abetted and even probably funded by the United States through the CIA. I don't, because this is my government, that is what I criticized. So with that, I think we'll turn it over to Kurt Mehta who is also a student of Cuba, been there many times, have studied Cuba, also feels the way I do. It's an incredibly interesting, even magical place in my mind. And so Kurt is here to sort of, to comment on an update with Cuba and an update about our US relations with Cuba, including our relations or lack there of at Guantanamo Bay, our prison in Cuba. Okay, Kurt, go ahead. Okay, so just a little bit about my own experience with Cuba. I first went to Cuba in 2013. The Soviets were not in Cuba at that point anymore. They hadn't been for many years. And I became similar to Sandy, I became transfixed about the island, about its history. And it was about as far from my area of interest as possible, my area of interest was central Europe. I always had been up until then. It continues to be, but now Cuba has another axis of that Cold War. I expanded my area of interest from not just East and West Berlin, but the other focal point of the Cold War, which was Havana during the height of the Cold War and the Cuban Missile Crisis. So, similar to Sandy, I don't romanticize the Cuban government and many of the actions it takes. However, I probably throw it in the lot with, every other developing country slash third world government. There may be some good things in Cuba's case, health and education, where many of our allies in the third world don't even have that, let alone the opportunity to economically advance the population and their respective rights that we cherish in our country. So it's an interesting, it's a very fascinating place and it's also fascinating why we've chosen that one particular third world country as on the receiving end and have put it on the receiving end for our ire often. As is the case right now, as Sandy eloquently stated, the situation right now in Cuba is not unlike in terms of its relationship with the United States. It's not unlike what it's been during some of the more difficult portions of our history with that country going from the early 1960s during the Kennedy administration through the administrations of George W. Bush, Donald Trump, and now President Joe Biden. It's the, we are still intent on advocating the overthrow of the game. You must be home. And that has not changed even though there was a short date hunt during the last year of the Obama administration where there was talk about reopening the embassy, embassy actually was reopened. Want to make sure that folks can hear me right now. Yes, we can. So there, that date was short lived as the next administration after the Obama administration decided to do a 180 which has resulted in the embassy being shut essentially shut down except for what I understand are a few, just a few civil servants and security guards. And I think the security guards outnumber the civil servants inside the building. And as Sandy mentioned, despite the Biden administration's announcement that it would change course yet again during the campaign, the presidential campaign, that has not happened. There were 243 sanctions, new sanctions that were applied against the Cuban government by the Trump administration by the end, by the end of his term in office including a final shot, which was re-incorporating the government of Cuba into the world's terrorist nations designation. Cuba is back on that list and the current president, Joe Biden has not taken that country off the list nor has it indicated that it has any plans to do so. And in addition to the 243 sanctions that President Trump put into place, the Biden administration has added a handful of more. So the list keeps expanding. The new set of sanctions largely comes as a result of protests that took place on the island on July 11th of this year of 2021. And with a part two of those protests were supposed to take place on November 15th and they fizzled out, they did not take place. Many of the organizers and the biggest proponents of the protests had indicated that they were being subjected to harassment and a house arrest to prevent the protests from happening. They chose the date of November 15th as part two of the protests due to the fact that the Cuban government for the first time was reopening the island to tourism after a long halt due to the number of increased COVID infections as well as COVID related deaths on the island. After a relatively quiet response to COVID during the first year of the pandemic, Cuba was hit hard in the early summer of 2021. It's notable to mention that Cuba, one of the few developing countries in the world that actually created its own vaccines on homegrown and developed and have an effective rate, effectiveness rate that parallels that of Moderna and Pfizer. So the island is about 90% vaccinated right now, I understand, could even be over 90%. And that is an anomaly in much of the third world. Simply- And by the way, I might mention, and in the first world, that kind of, that rate of effectiveness is dropping like a stone in the world. So- And Cuba has continued to maintain that vaccination on the island is not compulsory, it is voluntary. Unlike what many other countries have said would be the case where people would go around and just start jabbing everyone that they see, that is not the case. The Cuban government has made it a point that they are not forcing people to take the vaccine and they've still managed to acquire compliance in over 90% of the population. The protests were largely in that started on July 11th were largely due to the continuing shortages that have ravaged the island. This is probably one of the most difficult times that the island of Cuba's faced since the early 1990s. What happened in the early 1990s, a period of time that the Cubans call the special period was the reason it was considered special was because it's, for lack of a better term, it's biggest sugar daddy in the world, the Soviet Union and much of Eastern Europe had collapsed at the time and were no longer in a position to provide assistance to the island. And their markets for exports had dried up, the United States at the same time, further tightened the sanctions on the island under the Clinton administration. They changed what was essentially a executive order that President Kennedy had signed in 1962 into the law of the land. There were congressional acts known as the Helms-Burton Act and the Toroselli Act in the 1990s that were passed in the Congress that essentially made the embargo that had been put in place by executive order by President Kennedy, they made it law. So a simple executive order on the part of any new president that was maybe a little bit more sympathetic to Cuba could no longer just rip up the 1962 executive order signed by President Kennedy. This would have to go through our legislature to be repealed. So going back to what's been happening, the further tightening of the sanctions by the Trump administration and now the Biden administration combined with the terrible effects of COVID on the population and the shortage of gasoline because one of the biggest providers of gasoline to the country of Cuba has been Venezuela and the United States has made it very difficult for Venezuela to export its gasoline to Cuba and for Cuba to receive it. There's been an energy crisis combined with the COVID crisis and the overall difficulty due to the embargo. And I wanna mention one more thing that under the Trump administration towards the end all remittances to the island, one of the largest sources of income for the island I think probably not too far off from tourism is remittances from the United States from family members that people have in the United States that send money which is very common in much of the developing world if they're fortunate enough to have family members in the United States as well as in other Western countries. It's often a common practice for well to do American family members to send money to support their less fortunate family members in the developing world. And I believe about $4 billion US dollars every year were sent to the country of Cuba and going directly into the hands of common people on the street who lived in Cuba. That has disappeared completely and the Biden administration has no long has not taken up that slack. Even though during the early part of the administration's tenure in Washington D.T. they indicated that one of the first things that they would do while they examined the Cuban policy the Cuba policy was to re-institute the ability of Cuban Americans to send money to support family members that has not been done. So at this point, the country of Cuba has lost about, again, a small country with 11 million inhabitants has lost $4 billion of income over the last two to three years consecutively combined with some of the things that I mentioned that are additional difficulties that the island is facing namely, COVID and the shortage of gasoline. So it's a very difficult time and that resulted in the eruptions on the streets on July 11th, which again, many, you know, it's important to clarify what actually transpired on that day. In much of the United States, we were told that this was nothing but a freedom protest and a protest against the Cuban government calling for regime change. And it's important to distinguish that that wasn't necessarily the case. There were a couple of things that were going on. Notably, there were people that were asking for regime change. So I don't want to make it seem like that, you know, what some people may have seen on TV was completely false but the narrative wasn't completely forthcoming. There were also pro-government protests and there were also people that were simply just out protesting because they were frustrated by the fact that they couldn't get medications that are, you know, difficult to secure because of the embargo, because any, even if the United, what a lot of people don't know they often say, well, Cuba is a failed state because if they can't work with the United States there's nothing that stops them from working with other countries. The United States is one out of many other countries in the world. So why does Cuba just blame the United States for all of its problems? Well, it's important to understand that a portion of the embargo is dedicated to making the embargo not just a unilateral policy between the United States and Cuba or from the United States going to Cuba. It's a multilateral extraterritorial policy that penalizes other companies in other countries from working with Cuba. Essentially what we ask through our laws, other countries to do in foreign companies is to make a decision as to whether or not they want the US market or if they want the Cuban market. Now, any company that's in it to make a buck, whether they're in Sweden or in Iraq, they're going to take a look and see that the United States, the first world market with over 300 million people have a certain buying power that a country of 11 million in the Caribbean and a third world country at that simply doesn't have. So they often have to make a choice. The choice isn't that difficult if you did microeconomics 101 in college. You're going to make the decision to deal with the United States. And I interrupt you for a minute Kurt. So that's why the Cubans call the embargo a blockade, correct? Right, because it's not a unilateral policy in terms of how the United States chooses to deal with Cuba. It is essentially enforcing a law that completely blocks the island from the ability to deal with other countries. With the exception of some companies that simply have no interest in expanding their markets in the United States, there are some like that. Italy, right? Italy does business with Cuba, doesn't it? Yeah, Italy has a few companies that does business in Cuba. That's insane. Those companies will not be welcome to do business in the United States, but those companies are okay to do that. They've made that decision. And there are a few companies from Spain. Similarly, a few hotel chains that have no real interest in expanding in the US market. And they do business with Cuba. But even that, it's important to recognize is not as easy as it sounds. Maybe a company doesn't want to deal with the competition that they would have in the United States and would like to be in a smaller market. But one has to understand that much of the international banking system is based on the dollar. And the fact that we have a disproportionate influence, which is good for the United States, but it's a disproportionate influence in terms of international banking makes it very difficult because those banking rules make it nearly impossible for even foreign companies to do business with Cuba. Even those that believe they simply don't want to expand in the American market, they made their choice. They'll deal with Cuba for whatever reason. Maybe it's because of the countries and the tropics and their businesses related to the tropical conditions that are unique to the country of Cuba. But the fact that they have to deal with banking makes it complicated also for the company. As we know, a lot of companies are just gonna bow out. Right, but there's another basic thing that has to happen when you're doing business at all in Cuba, totally legal business. It all has to be done in cash. Right, right. There's no credit cards for the United States. There's no banking facilities for the United States in Cuba. So you have to go with cash and it's just, and many companies don't want to do that either, or many schools don't want to. When Burlington College had its overseas study program in Cuba, I would go to Cuba with a lot of money attached to me because we had to deal with cash and then you'd get to Cuba and they would count it like crazy and it would take hours to deal with the university. Yeah, look, I mean, we kind of take for granted that we deal with credit cards and checks and those kinds of things for a long time. But remember how difficult that is, even if you're traveling within the United States and you have to have piles of cash with you. Yeah, there's the possibility of theft, of loss and these things are difficult to then track if you're dealing with cash. And that makes it a challenge to work with that country. Can I, before you continue, can I mention one thing, one other historical fact that I think is particularly important today even on November 22nd? And that is that this is the date of the anniversary of the death of President John Kennedy, 60 years ago, how many years ago is it? He died on November 22nd, 1963 when I was a graduate student at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. And what? Yeah, 58. Right, 58. So, and the reason I mentioned that today is that of course the history of the US policy toward Cuba goes back at least that far. President Kennedy, when he was elected in 1960, was told by President, by then President Eisenhower that there would be an invasion of Cuba in April of 1961, I think. Right. And that Kennedy better carry it out. Now that was a secret invasion and that occurred at the Bay of Pigs in 1961 when I've been there, beautiful spot on the Caribbean. And Kennedy hesitated. He thought, geez, that's a hell of a way to start his administration. He was convinced, however, that he had to carry it through. So the United States has a really long and violent history also against Cuba. That invasion took place, but Fidel Castro was onto it and at the Bay of Pigs. And he, I think even had been informed about it. And so he met that invasion with force himself, booted the Americans out, they were private armies and killed a lot of them in that invasion and sent them packing. Well, many people feel there's evidence to suggest that, so Kennedy's policy failed essentially because he didn't do enough to make it according to some. Well, the assumption at the time. Yeah, the assumption on the part of the CIA and much of the government that was in favor of the invasion was that Kennedy in order to save face would send the US military in the event that the... And the Air Force. And the Air Force. To back up the largely Cuban exiles that were taking the lead on the invasion. And Kennedy decided not to have any direct US involvement in the form of the armed forces to intervene and... They were mercenaries. The ones who went there and did the attack were mercenaries, private armies. Right, right. But largely of Cuban descent themselves, if not from the island, actual immigrants to the United States. And the fact that they did not receive the backup of the US armed forces also had a tremendous impact on American politics. Also, where they looked at the Kennedy administration as having double crossed them and not supportive. And as a result, regionally, they largely supported Republican candidates in the South of Florida largely ever since with some... Ever since. Including, I mean, before we open this up to questions, I want to mention other things. So with these protests, at least there is current protests, there's quite a bit of evidence that some of those protests, TERS were really supported by the United States and that this was like similar to other velvet type revolutions against Russia and the Soviet Union. They were protests that were also supported by the United States and by the Central Intelligence Agency. I'm not saying that that's the only factor in these protests because the Cubans have plenty of reason to protest against their own government. But it's not completely fair to say that it was kind of only a Cuban protest. Right, a grass root, a grass root. Right, go ahead. It's no secret that even the CIA admits the number of times that there were assassination plots against Fidel Castro. I know it, they seem proud of it, except that Fidel escaped all of that. He escaped all of it, right? I believe the number exceeds six to 700. Really? I didn't know that one. Yeah, there's a great book out there by a author from the New York Times named Tim Weiner and he wrote a book regarding the history of the CIA called The Legacy of Ashes. He could pick it up or get it on wonderful book and the CIA actually on the CIA's website when the book came out actually acknowledged the book and never indicated that there was anything in it that was inaccurate. And the book goes to state that from 1960 to believe it or not, the last assassination attempt was in 2004 against Fidel Castro when he visited a conference in Panama. There were about six to 700 assassination attempts against him that were supported by the United States government. And as Sandy mentioned, they all failed. At the end of the day. They all failed, right. But the thing is that I wanna mention because there's a lot of evidence that I'm not saying beyond a reasonable doubt but there's a lot of evidence which leads to the fact that his Cuban policy might be why and his failures might be why JFK was assassinated as well. And I'm not saying it's definite because who knows but there was a lot of bitterness against JFK for not following through with that invasion and with his failure to actually change the regimes in Cuba. Cuba has been the target of US foreign policy for a very long time and not just since the communists took over Fidel Castro took over since the beginning of our history, the United States has sought to control all of Latin America, all of Latin America. And Cuba came under the United States control in the Spanish-American War in 1898. And the United States has been attempting to control that island ever since. And also all of Latin America and the Cubans have in 1959 resisted that. And so when you go there, it's a strange feeling. You don't have to support the government to note that the people appear to me to be very dignified and have a spirit about them that they've stood alone against the empire of the United States for a very long time and they've gone their own way and they have not been overthrown. So even with all their criticisms of the Cuban government, which are fair, I think it's fair enough, they still do not wanna be folded into the US empire. I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, if you look at it from the outside it seems it comes across as a classic David and Goliath scenario, where you have this one little underdog that continues to be a thorn in the side of the United States and not through its actions necessarily against the United States, but just by the fact, it's there. Right, it's there. And it's a very unpleasant reminder that there are small people who can resist. Like you said, David and Goliath can resist and stay independent. With all their faults, they still are independent. But anyway, should we open up to questions Kurt? There's one other thing that I wanted to mention or that you had mentioned a week ago and that is in 1904, as a result of the Spanish-American War, the United States did acquire property basically in Cuba at Guantanamo and Guantanamo is now a US prison governed by the United States in which we, not we, the United States government has placed so-called terrorists who were brought to Cuba from places like Afghanistan but from other Middle East countries after 9-11. And some of these men is adolescents. They've been imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay for a very long time. There's now recent case studies and articles about some of them who were released talking about the great deal of torture that existed in those prisons, tortured by the United States, not by the Cubans of course, but by the United States and by the Central Intelligence. And you gave a very good presentation. I thought Kurt on the idea of how torture fits into the history and the US Constitution, still goes on. Cuba, Guantanamo still has not been closed down and there are still 38 prisoners there. Is that correct? I believe, yeah, the prisoners and you know, and it's, again, it's interesting to note that when Barack Obama was elected president, you know, one of his campaign pledges was to not necessarily return Guantanamo to Cuba, but at the very least it was to close Camp Delta, the de facto prison that's on the base, on the US Naval base. And that's something that Joe Biden has also indicated. And you know, both presidents now at this point, you know, were spanning into the second decade since the Obama administration in terms of time. And there have not been any real moves to actually shut down Camp Delta. And a number of the prisoners who were there who have not received trials yet, after, you know, nearly being incarcerated for two decades and subject to, you know, some of the torture that Sandy mentioned, they have not been given trials. And in a couple of cases, they've also been essentially sentenced to life without trial. Right, right. They're either considered too dangerous or too badly damaged as a result of their incarceration to ever be released into the public. And it's important to know that the Cubans don't want it there. They've tried to evict the United States. It was subject to some kind of a lease which ended a long time ago in the first place. Second place, the Cubans don't accept payment. They are in the position of being landlords who want these people out, want to return Guantanamo to the Cuban government or to the Cuban people. And the United States basically says, make us, we're not going. And that has been another real thorn in the side of any kind of peaceful resolution of this conflict between Cuba and the United States. But maybe we should open up to questions if that's all right with you, Kurt, okay? Yeah, let's go guys. I noticed Tom Simon was here for a bit who did a wonderful baseball weed, CAF's Cuban American Friendship Society with Tom took a little league baseball team there. I don't even remember the year and we played our Vermont kids played baseball with Cuban kids, of course, poor Vermonters, not as well trained, I suppose, as the Cubans. We didn't do so well. However, those kids really learned a lot. And I want to thank Tom Simon for getting that trip together. I don't know if he's still here or not, but anyway, thanks, Tom. Thanks. Anyway, are there other questions about this relationship or anything else around people's minds? No? Okay, well, I don't know how many, I think everybody else is pretty muted, but I did want to say a couple of other things about our whole relationship with Cuba. The United States has attempted these regime changes in other places as well, particularly in Latin America as a result of the Monroe Doctrine in 1823. The United States has assumed pretty much hegemony in all of Latin America. And it's an area that we don't pay the United States or citizens do not pay a heck of a lot of attention to. I don't think many people know that for instance, in 1973, United States conducted a successful regime change plan in Chile, right? When Salvador Alende was elected president of Chile, he was again, a leftist, I guess, a socialist. And for a lot of, yeah, leftist reforms. Not, again, important to make the distinction, yeah. He wasn't a fervent, flag waving communist, red flag waving communist. He instituted reforms that were considered left wing largely to deal with some of the inequities in that country's society. And it's relationship between the rich and the poor. But as Sandy, I think about to say, that was unacceptable given the fact that it took place in the Western Hemisphere. Exactly. Well, I mean, there were similar operations like that regime change operations that the United States has conducted all over the world, of course. That was really what the Cold War against the Soviet Union was all about, was to force the Soviet Union, essentially not to be a communist country, not to proceed into a socialist economy, essentially. And that started there, that was the Cold War which began against the Soviet Union in 1945, right after World War II, immediately after World War II with the division, as you know, Kurt of Berlin and the occupation on both sides, the occupation of Russia in Eastern Europe as a result of World War II. And essentially the occupation in the Western part of Europe by the United States, at least for a period of time with our troops. And that Cold War continued. The other action I get for regime change early on was in 1953 in Iran, as people probably know that Iran itself had elected a socialist government. The United States didn't like that much either. And the CIA conducted its first successful regime change operation in 1953 against Iran in which we're still stuck in really the consequences of that operation in Iran and continued hostility. And then into Latin America after that. But the Cuba thing continues unabated since 1959. And so, islands that's really occupied, the citizens of Cuba are BIPOC people. It's an island with black people. It's really a Caribbean island that became African-American in a sense because they had extensive slavery just like the United States. It's an island that has many of the traditions of the United States, they're our closest neighbor. It always seems to me that we should be making peace with our neighbors and not a continued state of hostility. And that's why I am so committed to continuing citizen kind of diplomacy with Cuba. And anyway, I feel very strongly about we should be making friends and not having adverse relations to the people of the world. And certainly- I have a question. Like I'm just wondering if in Cuba, there's any appearance of what's happening in this country in terms of racial tensions, rights, you know, supremacy, any of that. Look, there's a good series that everybody should probably take a look at. Cornell West did a whole series a number of years ago on racism in Latin America and in Central America. And they did explore racism in Cuba. Of course, Cuba is, I suppose, a racist society because of its history. Like the United States, however, I do not believe that either Cuba or the United States has institutionalized racism. Because of history, whites and Spanish speaking people have always been on top in Cuba without a doubt. And they form, I suppose, the majority of the ruling political elite are white people. However, the institutions itself of Cuba are not intrinsically racist. I'm a person who does not believe that the institutions of the United States are either. However, because of history, because of attitudes, because of prejudices, it always, in both places, turns out that white people are on the top, right? I think that's fair to say. But I mean, I think it's super important to know that there was actually a lot of forced desegregation that took place in that country. And in the context of Latin America, as Sandy mentioned, it appears to have done a relatively good job, again. Well, better, better than the other place. Or better job than many other multi-racial societies that are in existence in Latin America. And the island was very heavily segregated prior to Castro regime that came into power. And one of the first symbolic acts that took place when Castro, Fidel Castro and his brother rode into Havana on their tanks, was the tanks went onto the beach. And the beach was segregated at the time. And the tanks crushed and knocked over the fence that separated the white portion of the beach from the colored portion of the beach. As a symbolic act in terms of what the government would claim would be their goals. And again, when this happened, we have to remember that the United States had, not only de facto, but de jure segregation in this country. That was the law of the land. Jim Crow was a complete force. Well, it was the law of the South. As you mentioned, there was a difference between the South and the North in that the South was segregated legally. And in the North, there was segregation, including in my own hometown of Springfield, Mass, but it was part of my law. Yeah, it was part of my law. But I wanted to mention something else. When you go to Cuba, if you went into the Nacional Hotel, I'm always kind of surprised, but warms my heart to see a statue of Nat King Cole. Do you ever see that at the Nacional? Okay, so even in the fifties, even in the fifties, black entertainers, Johnny Mathis and Nat King Cole, they always went to Cuba because they were welcomed there in not segregated clubs, but in clubs where both races could go. That was not true in the United States when black artists had to play and do music and entertain in a segregated audience. Right, and there's one other thing to say about the Cuban exiles who left Cuba. Because remember in 1959, when the communists came in to power, what they did, they threatened property relations, right? So many of the richer, more wealthy Cubans, largely white Cubans left the island and they came to the United States legally and they settled here. And if you'll notice many black people didn't have the money to leave the island. So if you look at the Cuban American population here in this country, it still is largely white. Cuba itself is not largely white, but the people who left in 59 for a lot of good reasons and some not so good reasons were objecting to the communist takeover. We're objecting to the fact that the communists pledged an end to racism, even though it didn't happen and they objected to having their property taken away from them and they came to this country. And the prospect of a distribution of wealth. Right, exactly. To the less fortunate parts of the Cuban countryside, which was and is largely black. Right, right. The last thing I just wanna tell a personal story about that difference between blacks and whites in Cuba. We had a very close colleague, Lourdes Perez, who died this year and she was a black woman. I always picture Lourdes because she studied at the University of Moscow. I'm thinking of black, Cuban and Moscow. I mean, it must have been, she must have been quite, well, I don't know that to be true. But anyway, she told me once when we were discussing these politics, she rubbed her skin, very black skin. And she said, I would be nowhere without P. del Castro. And she had a very important job at the University of Havana. She was the director of foreign relations, the International Relations Department. And I think there are really big differences and attitudes between the wealthier white Cubans and black Cubans that black Cubans support the revolution more. Yeah. I don't say that people have the right to object to the revolution and protest against it. And there are real reasons to do so. I'm just answering Lou's question. Have they fought racism? Yes. They have fought it. Has it been totally successful? No, in the United States, have we fought against racism? Yes. Have we been entirely successful? No. I mean, it's still really the white... Work in progress in most places. Yeah, both nations are a work in progress, I think. Yeah. Are there other thoughts and questions? Okay, so I just wanted to mention one other thing before we close for the evening then. And that is the Cuban American Friendships Society is trying to get together a trip in April for anyone who wants to come, particularly it's going to be about education in Cuba, we'll visit schools, we'll visit the University of Havana. So anyone who might be interested in that, and of course there'll be a lot of time to go, well, I can't say, because you're not supposed to go to the beach in Cuba. You're not supposed to have fun in Cuba. You're supposed to be there for a really serious reason. According to the Americans, not according to the Cubans, Cuba remains a really fun place to be. So anybody who's interested in that, get in touch with me, Sandy Baird at Sandra Baird 114 at gmail.com or 802-355-4968, any final comics? Kurt, do you have any? I don't miss your opportunity to go to Cuba. It's fun, isn't it? It's great. I know, it's so surprising that you get there because it's such a fun place. I don't know now though with COVID, I still think you can't stop the Cubans from having fun. You just can't stop them. They're irrepressible. However, the COVID thing has made life really miserable for Cuba. And the shortage of gasoline. What? Go ahead. And the shortage of gasoline and a number of other difficulties that they're experiencing right now. Yeah, they're struggling for food too, right? Right, right. Yes, but they've done that before. The Cubans have experienced rationing. They've experienced all the hardships that the United States has levied against it. They've experienced it. They've lived through it. They're real survivors. I'll say that, real survivors. So Sandy, there was a question in the text at the bottom of the screen. Asked, can one go to Cuba without having been vaccinated? And right now the answer is yes. Yes. As long as you have a net, you can show a negative test. I don't think that's gonna change though. I mean, it might change here, but the reason I don't think, this is a postulation on my part, right? Cuba deals with the third world. Do you know that the United States has virtually said with these vaccine mandates pretty much that nobody from the third world can come to the United States at this point, which is racist when you think about it, because people in the third world don't have access to vaccines yet. They don't have access. A lot of them don't wanna take them in the first place, but they don't have access to them either. So when the United States says you can only come into our borders with a vaccine, it operates as segregating most of the world. Most of the world is not faxed. I mean, think about it. You think about that if anybody cares to think about it. In other words, what we've closed our borders to are essentially brown and black and poor people, right? Is that am I wrong about that? And yeah, a lot of Asians too. However, I think that Cuba, because it's a third world country, it has some kind of knowledge of that perhaps. And it depends so heavily on tourism. I would guess that they're not gonna make that vaccine a mandate. They might, but they might, but they're not, as you said, Kurt, I didn't know that, that they're not mandating it for their own people, right? That's, yeah, it's voluntary. That makes me, that's surprising to me, but they are, that's still voluntary? Yes. Wow, that is surprising to me. But of course, like our government, the Cubans have the power to convince, I bet you, right? Sure. But as long as it's just convincing, I guess. Yeah. Are there any other questions or questions in the chat? Because that was the first question in the chat that I noticed that Donna asked. There's a second question, but I don't see it. So do you? I don't. Okay. Okay, any final comments? So everybody come to Cuba, okay? Oh, here's the chat. No. Yeah, that was the question. The first thing is that this, oh, by the way, this is important to note that this discussion is going to be recorded and shared with community television from public access. I will send out people a link to those, to that recording. And the second question was about the vaccination. And so I doubt, I would doubt I, but I might be very wrong that this vaccine will be mandated for people to go to Cuba because they need tourism so badly. It's also what I would guess. And we don't, the United States doesn't, I guess. Okay, anything else on anybody's mind tonight? All right, so we will be doing another Vicki session in a couple of weeks on the Jacobson versus the state of Massachusetts, which was decided, I believe, in around 1904, which was the first case that said vaccine mandates were legal. Sandy, how, tell people, tell people what to do if they wanna go to Cuba. I said, if they wanna go with CAFSA or if they even want legal advice of how to go there, legally, they should call me. Sandy Baird, 802-355-4968, okay? Yep, good. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Kurt. Talk to you later. Thanks. Thank you. Bye. Bye-bye.