 Hello and welcome to Newsclick. Today, we are going to discuss the 100 year of Jalena Bagh massacre and the fact that the British have yet to express anything beyond a rather bland regret for what happened as if it was a meteor strike or shall we say an earthquake and they did not have any agency regarding that. Dilaljan, to discuss this and you have been, I would not say student of history but you have been a journalist with a deep interest in history, keen interest in history. How do you see the politics of a regret which does not talk about who it was done by and I would like you to think about the fact that once the High Court case was there on the Mao massacre by people who are asking for reparations, actually the British government, the Foreign Minister, ex-gave a formal apology on behalf of the British crown to the Mao-Mau victims. Why is that unless they are forced, they really do not want to go beyond that? I think the British definitely have their own way of expressing things when it comes to India. They think that India should possibly settle for less. That is the impression and also in the last five years, had it not been for two MPs from the Congress party, possibly the British wouldn't even have made this statement. Our political leadership in this country have been busy with getting kudos for themselves, not to use this opportunity to realize that the centenary of the Jalena Bagh was coming. They did not use at any point this government did not utilize whatever India's growing clout, which is tom-tom in the course of the elections, to use this as to extract an apology. The Canadians did it for the Khoma Ghatamaru incident. Massacre. But you know it's interesting that Modi is getting some awards which is the order of the patron saint of Orthodox Church. And at the same time, the first version of the BJP manifesto left out Christians and Parsees from those who would be given citizenship, clear divergence from the citizenship bill which has just been passed in Loksova and is one of the major planks. Planks. So from Russia, this is what Modi has extracted, an order which is the highest award given. In fact, it was suspended during, it was abolished during the time of Soviet Union and it's been brought back by Putin, something which goes back about 400 years. Similarly, South Korea sub-award has been given. But an apology that was too much to ask, was it? Definitely. And there's something also very similar. I was actually looking at Theresa May's statement and I was with two points. One is that it's a very weak statement. That's what you said. It was not just a regret. And it doesn't depend on who did it. Secondly, it also does not accept British culpability. Incident, what? Something happened. As I was reading it, I just decided that let me mentally take off that Theresa May making the statement in the context of Jalliolabag. How many times have been in the last five years, have these kind of statements been made against violence of possibly the most gruesome nature taking place against our own people and how the BJP and its leaders have acted? Something happened, you know. Very recently in February after the Pulwama attack, you know, the Kashmiri students were being attacked everywhere. So the statement made the same thing. That it shouldn't have happened. Something like this should not happen. It is very unfortunate that it has happened. And something has happened. The express regret. There is no agent who did it. Who did it? No. And also no expression of an apology to the people that you have taken great risks by coming out of Kashmir to study here, which means that you're adhering commitment to the Indian Republic against whatever is the situation in Kashmir. So instead of applauding them, you're sending them back with nothing to really cherish. So this is part of the course in that sense. But you know, let's for the time being take out the current dispensation. But if we look at the colonial history, and it's not the colonial history in India alone in different parts of the world, but in India we have another glaring example, which is the 1943 famine. You know, and if you remember, 43 famine again, only regret that that time Church 11 commented too many Indians. If they die, what's the problem? And why is Gandhi not dying? Why is he still alive? If so many people are dying. But this and the 43 famine are two instances. British have only said, you know, they are sorry this happened, but they have not said that they had it eroded. In fact, these two incidents, if you look at the entire colonial history, you'll find that globally this was possibly among the most prominent incidents about which contemporary Britain should be completely ashamed of. But they aren't. This is where an unarmed crowd was fired upon, Jalyana Bharg as we all know. And their soldiers fired till they ran out of ammunition. Just I think in one well, 120 bodies were pulled out. And that was the extent of the massacre. That fire till you run out of bullets. And the guns were too hot to hold. Those are those are the pictures. Even today, there is not a real definitive history about what really happened on that day, you know, because you had two commissions. You know, at that time you had one by the appointed by the British and the other was, you know, by the Congress party. They came in different approaches, speaking to only their own people. To use that particular their own people. So as a result of which we do not have a clear coherent picture. In fact, the world, the images of Jalyana Bharg is known to the world through Richard Attenborough's film. There's also something very important, you know, I think, you know, it's in today's India it is very important to recollect not just today's India, but also globally what is happening. This entire violence, you know, attack on the right to protest, you know, to dissent, freedom of speech. You know, if you look at why was Dyer so angry with these people? Because they are not listening to us. They are not obeying the order that has been which is to shut up, not to express any resentment. That was the basic anger against it. Now, interestingly, that Gandhi in his responses right till the time that Dyer was alive till 1927, he kept saying that we should not encourage Dyerism in any way. And he kept on arguing that he was just symptomatic of a larger problem. You know, it is not that instead of individually looking and blaming him for what had happened. But you have to ensure that you take out that intolerance streak within you. I think that is very important. Globally, we are seeing that while everyone is demanding that we either condemn, you apologize, express regret. But every political leader, most of them who are populist leaders whether in India or whether in other countries, they are all practicing in some way or the other Dyerism, you do not agree with me which means that we put you in a black hole. You know, of course, we will not talk about the black hole because we just got a picture of the black hole, but leaving that out. Jalyana Bagh Massacre, there are two other elements of the Jalyana Bagh Massacre I would like you to sort of respond to. One was the first award Wapsi in India was really that. Rabindranath Thakur returning his knighthood. And for those who complain about award Wapsi which took place after various attacks, lynchings and so on. It is unfortunate, Kalburgi's murder was also the other trigger for the return of the awards. The award Wapsi is also tied up the Jalyana Bagh because it was Thakur's return of the award which also gave it a far bigger at that time legitimacy that okay, people have protested, we have to now protest. Massacres have taken place, we have now to protest it. It virtually, Jalyana Bagh was the trigger for a much larger mass movement in the country. Much larger mass movement at that time. In fact, after you said that you wanted to discuss Jalyana Bagh I was just kind of reading up and I decided to just once again read the Tagore's letter. And what two paragraphs really struck me, I just want to share it with you and also the viewers. Tagore in his letter said, the time has come when badges of honor make our shame clearing in there incongruous context of humiliation and I for my part wish to stand shorn of all special distinctions by the side of my countrymen. Just couple of sentences prior to that he said, the very least that I can do for my country is to take all consequences upon myself in giving voice to the protest of the millions of my countrymen surprised into a dumb anguish of terror. Possibly the finest words that you can actually say to tell the British Empire that I don't want your knighthood and I stand with the poorest of the poor, the most oppressed, someone who is just expressing not even a political right but just to celebrate the renewal by Sakhi Day. True and of course the voice of the writers who in 2015 returned the rewards. It was very simple and equally powerful. And look at it, you know, a wopsy gang, you know, the people using have no sense of history. You know, I was telling you about, I just want to come back, I just made a couple of other notes, you know, also I was telling about Gandhi and saying that he did not want to encourage diarism by any way by turning his face completely from dire. Now, he said certain other very interesting things in the context of Jalliwala Bagh. One is that he drew, you have to give it to Gandhi that he could draw parallels from anything, you know. So, he drew a comparison between General Dyer's act and the murder of people in the name of cow protection. Now, he said, you know, that many Hindus believe that it is proper to kill a man who wants to kill a cow and he will quote scripture for his defense and many other Hindus will be found to justify his action. But strangers who do not accept the sacredness of a cow will hold it preposterous to kill a human being for the sake of slaying an animal. He also told Catherine Mio, you know, who wrote about Gandhi extensively, I want this country to be spared of diarism. That is, I do not want my country when it has the power to resort to frightfulness in order to impose her custom on others. Now, when I read these things, you know, I felt that this is very important to recollect, not just Tagore, but also Gandhi in the context of what the parallels that he was drawing, that how can you be so against people who have a different point of view. And we have a disagreement with Dyer, but let us not look at him only in isolation. We have to look at him as a product of the system which has bred people like Dyer. I think you have to give it to Dyer. And also the preside nature of the statement, because we do talk about intolerance, both of the rulers and those who the rulers are supporting. You see very close parallels today. And also the resistance, I want to come to the other, shall we say inspiration that Jalyanabhag, Jalyanabhag provided, which is Bhagat Singh. Bhagat Singh was 12-year-old. He went there, collected blood and dirt from the soil of Jalyanabhag. And then he kept it with him as a symbol of what Jalyanabhag to him represented. And for him it was an inspiration for his resistance which he then pursued. Absolutely. People took away a lot of lessons for the future. In fact, we can say that Jalyanabhag had it not happened. Maybe 1947 would not have been in 1947. Could have been a few years later. So it provided a trigger. You had said that after Jalyanabhag massacred the kind of debate it generated, it led to the first real mass movement in this country, non-corporation and Khilafat movement together. That is also the time when... We had 1905, which was the Banga-Bhanga-Sudeshi movement. But it did not have the kind of Pan-Indian sweep that post-Jalyanabhag had. Also possibly it was not so socially inclusive because we have noted that during the Sudeshi movement especially there had been a lot of Hindu imagery which came out which possibly did not make it as inclusive an agitation as it may possibly have been. But that apart, definitely 1919, 1920, it really set... Also created the basic distinctions. Indian right-wing became pronounced and actually write an identifiable as a right-wing through the process of which emerged from the Jalyanabhag. If you remember in 1919, a few months after there was a special session of the Congress in Amritsar. Now at that particular point, there was a fairly strong visible Hindu nationalistic section within the Congress party led by Tilak and various others who supported the Tilakites. They participated in it and it was decided that the 1920 session is going to be held in Nagpur. So they came back, B.S. Munjay Hedgevar was also a participant in the Amritsar Congress. They came back and with the intention of making Tilak the president because they were not comfortable at that point with the kind of hobnobbing if I can to use the word at that time what Gandhi was doing with the Khilafat Congress leaders. They couldn't have Tilak because he, you know, Tilak died and so on. So then Munjay and Hedgevar went to Pondicherry to try convincing Aurobindo to become the president of the Nagpur Congress but he turned down the offer. He said that look, I am not interested. So they came back, they were a bit unhappy. That is the time when Hedgevar and Munjay start really moving away from the Gandhian Congress, so to say. And then of course the famous riots in Nagpur in 1924 which also Savarkar coming out with a treatise called Hindutva, who is a Hindu. You can see this change as a national movement. So Jali-Avalam Pagu in a way was a provided a trigger. You know, there is a poems which have been published recently and of course it was by a person who underwent the, at that time the shootings because he was buried under dead bodies and he came out and never talked about it again but he wrote down these poems. But it's also very powerful imagery that he presents in his poems of Hindu, Muslim, Sikhs being together in Jali-Avalam. And also that Saifuddin Kichlu who was otherwise a Hindu that would have been today considered an anti-national Muslim was actually the leader of the movement at that time. So those are the kind of things which is a history that the right wing today does not want to remember probably in what line with what you're calling revival of diarism and intolerance. And that's what seems to be at the moment the threat we face. Thank you Nilanjan for being with us and sharing with us a lot of this information which I think 100 years down the line we need to remember and celebrate again. Thank you. 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