 Good afternoon, wherever you're joining us from, I'm Birolat of the cultural events team in the British Library And I want to welcome you to the library which is currently home to well lots of people finding refuge from the heatwave But also to our current exhibition breaking the news which explores five centuries of UK news from through a variety of different lenses Today's very important events will take you behind the headlines on the war in Ukraine into some of the deeper undercurrents surrounding it And who better to lead you on that journey than Natalia Angelava of Coda Story? So don't hesitate during this event to send your questions in as they occur to you There's space underneath here on the platform for you to submit your questions at any time And they'll be put to the speakers later on In the meantime, I'm handing over to you, Natalia Thank you so much, Vi, thank you And many thanks to all of you who are here with us, we can't see you but we believe that you're here And I know those of you who are in the UK are braving the heat which has done wonders to pushing Ukraine out of the headlines So let's try to reverse that a little bit We have fantastic speakers with us today, Peter Pomerantsev is joining us from Prague I believe he's just out of Ukraine or at least been going back and forth Natalia Guminuk is in Ukraine and Shul Walker is in Budapest And all of their biographies are online, so I'm not going to be going through their many, many achievements Because I think it's much better to dive in But before we do, I do want to reiterate what we just said, please do send the questions as you think of them And we'll make sure to leave enough time to get to them So I told you where everyone is, myself, I'm Natalia Angelava and I'm in Tbilisi, Georgia I am a co-founder of Coda Story, which is a newsroom that is dedicated to coverage of the root causes of global crises Exposing connections between them and their global ramifications And we work quite differently from most mainstream newsrooms because our editorial process is very much built around the themes, the crises that we cover And we try to bring context and continuity to the issues that you see in your news feeds and on the news We're a very global team, but myself and Georgian, this region is very much part of Coda's DNA And look before the world was shaken by the February 24th invasion of Ukraine, the new invasion of Ukraine Our team of reporters have been covering the very causes behind the invasion Things like the uprising of history in Vladimir Putin's Russia The consolidation of authoritarians all around the world, the global memory wars And a couple of months before Putin invaded, we had an honour of publishing a really great essay by Peter Pomerantsev called Memory in the Age of Impunity So that's why that is the title of today's session And in that essay he talked about the need for new thinking on what binds us across the world Peter, so I want to start with you and maybe we can jump in if you could explain the very concept of this Age of Impunity and the connected storylines that you and I have talked so much about And explain it especially in the context of the war in Ukraine So I suppose the essay started off with a question about memory, why don't we remember things It started actually when the Belarusian wrote to me and said, look, everyone's forgetting about Belarus This was right after, you know, this really quite flabbergasting moment when Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus, forced down a Ryanair flight I think it was Ryanair, pretty sure it was Ryanair, under forced pretenses basically like as it travelled over Belarusian airspace You know, the Belarusians forced it down saying there was a terrorism incident and then dragged off this Belarusian dissident and his girlfriend who'd been living in the Baltics And that's a huge deal, I mean essentially it's like completely acting like a terrorist state, hijacking a commercial flight And my friend wrote to me from Belarus saying, look, we're really worried this is going to be forgotten in a couple of weeks And she was completely right, it was completely forgotten And I just started thinking about like the agony of Syrians that I knew who would produce so much evidence about war crimes in Syria Just more evidence than we've ever had and it just goes nowhere, it doesn't stay in the public memory And I was wondering why is that, what is the connection between evidence and memory And I started thinking about how when one does memory games, how do you remember something I don't know if anyone has ever tried playing memory games, the way you do it, you put it into a larger story You can't remember each thing individually, you put it into a larger story And I think memory is very connected to large historians Events make sense when they're part of a larger narrative and then I look back at the Cold War where we had very simplified, very faulty narratives but, you know, battle of freedom versus dictatorship or whatever And even small events like the arrest of a dissident or the killing of a priest in Poland would fit into these larger stories And they would have meanings that were part of a larger story and those larger stories have fallen apart We live in a world where it's very hard to define the good that we're trying to get to and indeed, you know, what's the larger idea of history that we're trying to articulate So that was kind of what the essay was about and I was like, so what's the role of us as journalists then? Because we want things to be remembered, we don't just collect evidence, we're trying to look for something much bigger And I suppose what I really came to is understanding these hidden connections between events And our role as journalists is to uncover them and the example that I use actually, first of all, was the case of the last two Nobel Prize winners So Maria Ressa in the Philippines, Muratov in Russia, these are not countries that are ever put together No one ever thinks about them in a continuum I think I did it in my last book, I put them together because I could see that they were all both fighting two very different phenomena Which is the phenomenon of authoritarian tech, which is something codestory focus on And Maria Ressa's genius in the Philippines was actually relating her battle with Duterte, the recently ousted sort of populist, authoritarian leaning Recently recently replaced by war's dictator Yes, yes, who carries on attacking her, but her genius was to understand that, look, her story, which is a very local Filipino story Which maybe not very many people would have cared about, was part of a much larger story about the way digital technology was being used in a very, very new form of oppression And understanding that, you know, her story was connected to Facebook connected to what's happening in Russia with the troll farms And that was, I mean, she's a very good journalist, as you can see these larger stories So that was one example, and with Ukraine, you know, I think that there's a lot of thinking that needs to be done There are multiple, multiple larger stories here, there's not just one There's the overall security story of what you do with sort of nuclear powers that have gone very aggressive So China is the other one that we can think about, how do you defend against them? You're never going to do a humanitarian intervention against Russia or China because they have nukes So how does a Japan, how does a Taiwan, how does an Australia, how does a Ukraine, how does a Georgia defend itself against these places? What's the interplay between globalization and security that we can work out in the reaction to the Western reaction to helping Ukraine? Is there actually the beginnings of a larger theory of security? We can talk about post-colonialism, you know, Ukraine in the context of these kind of post-colonial, post-imperial, or not very post, in Russia's case, agonies So the connection there between Ukraine and Ireland and bits of Latin America Again, I don't think enough people have done that Sadly, audiences in Latin America don't, many audiences in Latin America don't see their colonial dramas reflected in Ukraine We can go on and on, you know, there's questions about war crimes and justice for war crimes And my favorite one, what I'm really getting into now, which is the legal culpability of propagandists, whether in Syria, or around January the 6th, or in Russia Which is a question that's now percolating through some judicial thinking So lots and lots of like things meet and I think that our Julius journalists is to do that I think the great danger is that it just becomes plucky little Ukraine biting big bad Russia, which is an emotional narrative People will get bored of that because there's only so far you can go on on kind of that kind of very simplistic emotion And sadly, that's what a lot of the framing is and ignoring the much larger issues at stake And if we do over-focus on that, then there's only so many cool speeches that Zelensky can give before people will tire And Natalia, I want to come to you Journalist false, the journalists who think they're doing good will be responsible for this And will burn in media hell Natalia, I want you to both reflect on that And you are in Ukraine, whether you agree that the global media stories boil down to sort of poor Ukraine-facing Russia rather than sort of a larger narrative, a larger storyline And whether it feels, it certainly from the outside, it certainly feels like it's slipping away from the headlines What does it feel like in Ukraine? Look, first of all, in Ukraine people are physically tired, I think that's probably the most important thing And there are a lot of other things to do for Ukraine, of course, the fight is existential So you really do wherever it's possible, there is no chance to give up if it's really up to about your existence, you know, I mean, why you still want to live for some time But I really think that the whole idea about Ukraine fatigue and things like that It's coming from the tradition of thinking about the news as an entertainment And that's for me the root of the problem Because, sorry to say, there was enough of show in Ukraine There were all kinds of atrocities, all kind of the fights and things like that So when I sometimes was asked, I think it started in May, by the way, by the Western journalists So what should you do with the Ukraine fatigue? My first question was like, we are there not to entertain you? You know, the second point I do partially and without blaming anybody, but I think it's a bit of the laziness You know, it was very easy to work in Ukraine for the first months You just go anywhere and that's a story, you really don't need to put any effort Reach in the town, you are there, you tweet, I'm in Butcher, that's done You go, I'm in Harkiv, you know, it's enough So I'm in Kiev and you know, the bombs are there, the Russians are coming And of course the audience would be boring, but that was very, very simple job to do You know, with all the credit, I think I have somehow the legitimacy to tell that I was there, I was anywhere And I really, really appreciate the job of the foreign correspondents working in Ukraine and the risks they are there But I still think we have the problems generally, which journalists and editors agreed on the idea that there is a compassion fatigue You know, and if the audience is going, we just skip the story But I do think if we rethink the idea of the journalism as a service, some things are unpleasant Medicine isn't pleasant, going for a gym for me is extremely unpleasant idea, but I find it healthy So I mean like consuming important news, it should be probably, you know, of course we should be a good storyteller And I, for instance, I still am amazed by what's going on There is no boring story for me here, you just need to find a different angle And I think my general idea, of course, the fatigue and the, you know, powerlessness It's tiring and the attention could fade away Because, you know, especially when you look for so many times that there is another global crisis and people are suffering You feel like you cannot again influence on that If you are not so old, you see that so many recent wars hasn't been, you know, stopped People maybe, you know, they became, it was a refugee crisis or things like that later What I find amazing in Ukraine, and by the way, the Ukrainians, they really do not ask for any compassion What they really ask is for solidarity And Ukrainians are fighting in all different ways, they are resilient There are a lot of inspirational topics for me, you know, really inspirational And what I believe you can't be really tired of that So it's really more a job of the, you know, media themselves to find the way To find your angles, to find the angles which are relevant to your audience, to your population And at first, you know, as a lot of Ukrainians we used to complain a lot, you know, what our government does wrong What Ukrainian media do wrong But after some time I understood that there is less capacity There is very little I would do to make Brazilian audience interested You know, like there is a limit to what Ukrainians can do It's, if it's matter for Brazil, you know, or if it's matter, we need to do our homework to explain But somehow it can be just done with the cooperation So what is interesting again, often the question about fatigue is asked exactly by the editors Whose job and duty is to find the way to do it differently for their audience It's really not my job to find the way to entertain Portuguese audience I'll find my way, I'll find it But really at this moment I have the capacity to work for the Ukrainians, citizens who lack some basic information So I would, you know, I write for international media But still I feel like I'm extremely responsible for recording what's happening at home and serving my citizens Yeah, this is interesting, you know, in the beginning when people would ask me You know, what do you think we should do, we should do for Ukraine, apart from, you know, saying give the money I also always said give it the gift of attention But it is incredible how difficult, it's much easier to give money, to give a donation than give that gift of attention And it's very hard to blame kind of lack of attention on any single editor or even, you know, the structure of news Or the way people consume it and so on So we spent, when we first founded Koda and Koda's tagline is staying on the story and we really wanted to figure out And it was Yemen that sort of really kind of pushed me to try and figure out how do we actually keep a crisis in a spotlight And imagine, you know, if it's frustrating to be a Ukrainian who feels like the world is beginning to abandon you And it's like to be Yemeni today where, you know, years and years on, really no one is paying attention or an Afghan and so on But, you know, and so I'm not going to go into the reasons behind the lack of attention spans But I think, you know, the only solution that we found is this thematic coverage of what Peter talked about, sort of finding, identifying this binding connective tissue of stories that can are relatable to other people as well And it does seem that, you know, history and the manipulation of history is definitely something that people both find really interesting and can relate to And I have to say, you know, sometimes frustratingly for us, no one has done history stories and rewriting of history stories better than Sean So Sean, can you just talk about sort of these issues of because I think you, I think you kind of have really managed to find as a consumer and as a reader of your stuff And I think you have found that sweet spot that brings stories alive, and especially with your with your work on kind of identity issues and so on Can you talk a little bit about that topic as that connected, you know, the binding storyline Sure, yeah, I mean, I think it's really important, you know, in both Russia and Ukraine and in very different ways. And I mean, something, you know, just just one thing before I go into that is that for, you know, this This, this is obviously a war launched by Russia and one of the things that I think we all need to think about going forward in terms of how to keep finding ways to make this relevant to people and keep finding ways to understand this is is how The foreign media is going to cover Russia in the next few years, when it's become since February, a sort of a difficult task has become much more difficult both for independent Russian media and foreign media, many of whom have decided to leave some of whom have been kicked out. There are all these new laws. And so kind of trying to understand what an earth Russia is up to here that the toll on Russian society whether there when when we can expect some feelings of discontent about this war or not. And that's become a lot harder to report. In terms of the historical memory I mean I think you know for for sort of I was I was based in Moscow for for about a decade until 2018 and was really focused on the way Putin had used history and particularly this this idea of victory in the Second World War to sort of create this real building block of identity for Russians and then to the to the point that I felt by the time I left Russia in 2018 that this war victory had almost become like this kind of secular religion in Russia, perhaps in many ways, more important certainly much more promoted than the actual Orthodox Church, and when you watch television when you read about what children were being taught in schools and so on. It's been sort of extraordinary to see in the last four years how this is just metastized even further. And you know of course, Putin's words about fighting Nazis in Ukraine are disingenuous and and of course there are a large number of sort of ideological motivations, both in terms of worries about NATO threats in terms of a kind of post colonial disdain for for Ukraine as a real country, but this, this, this in terms of selling this to to the Russian people, I think, you know this idea of Russia is somehow, you know against all the evidence, but somehow the current Russian action being this continuation of the glorious past of 1941 to 1945 is very powerful in Russia. At the same time, I think what it's what it's been really noticeable in Ukraine this this year is that through all of the kind of tragedy and tears and pain that, you know, the sense of Ukrainian identity feels to me and I'd be curious what Natalia thinks about this but but it feels to me like it's, it's come together in a way that was not there before that you know Maidan was perhaps the start of this journey of creating a unified Ukrainian identity but there were always complicated disagreements about what particular parts of history meant about what particular figures and symbols meant and then you know many people felt Ukrainian but exactly how they thought that should manifest itself was very different and it seems to me that Putin's done an amazing job at kind of giving people a much bigger box to put themselves in and say, you know, comfortably say I'm a Ukrainian patriot and I'm anti Russian, and many people who perhaps would have said that with an enormous number of caveats or would have said it in a different way. 10 years ago or even a year ago, and now, and now sort of, you know, very comfortable saying that so I think there are these two processes going on in the two countries related to kind of the views of history and the sense of national identity and they're going in different directions but I think they're kind of very important for how this develops over the next months and years as well as the military situation obviously. Natalia do you want to respond to that or should I. I had a bit. It's not like I have a different idea I would go on. I just think the war. It didn't bring something new. It's accelerated what was there and showed also as any extreme situation what really matters. But my feeling that it's what is important to stress that if you speak about the Ukrainian identity. It's not really about a history. It's not really about the vision of the country people want to leave. In fact, and it's more or less the agreement that we, we should have the country where people have choice to choose their future. The choice how they can leave doesn't matter what it could be a different choice of different people. But it's up to them to choose. So it could be different for for Harkiv it could be different for this church believers from this ethnic, you know, for this group, and I really, you know, more or less became sure in that within actually talking within the last months as to a lot a lot of people that it's really you in fact being Ukrainian is a political choice apart from is this ethnic group which is targeted. But for me, it's, it's really, because I'm very cautious about the idea of identity in the modern world you know with the whole history language, I'm speaking about the cultural identity. And what I really feel that what is matters is the way the country is governed for the Ukrainians, but it also the part of the Ukrainian identity of the political identity that people here, and it's not something which happened really in 2014 as well. I think that all the 30 years of the independence of Ukraine played, played crucial role in the way society, it is, because it's also very much generational. It's, you know, because it's really about the generation which really do not remember Soviet Union, like has nothing to do with that. They even do not understand why the Russia is bringing this, you know, like old ghost to their way they want to to to live in future. Yeah, and neither do many people in the West, and, and beyond the West as well. And, you know, the tricky thing is that the Ukrainian this incredible emergence of the Ukrainian identity that we have all of those who have watched the war the last decade in the heart really closely, and how witness, it doesn't really help to keep Ukraine, it can all, or it can only do so much to keep, to keep Ukraine in the global spotlight and Ukraine needs the global spotlight. In order to achieve the kind of future that shapes the identity that is being shaped right there. So, how do we how do we make caring about Ukraine part of the, the Western liberal identity people, people in the West, like what stories as media, do we tell people and Peter you mentioned colonialism and I think that's a really, really interesting one because I'm often really struck by how the conversation, you know, you know Russia just basically Russia's Russia's colonial reputation as a colonial power doesn't really extend beyond this region. Ask any Georgian and they'll tell you yes Russia is an empire it was an imperial power and they colonized us. But you know, I don't think that's how people think of Russia in Western Europe or Africa and in Asia. So, and why is that and whether it's possible to change it and is that one way of making people of keeping Ukraine in the spotlight. Yeah, from my very superficial research, and it's very superficial. A lot of what's known for better or worse the global south, the. It's, it's, it's seen as, you know, America's fault and it's American imperialism which is the root of this. So I'd like I'd love to interrogate that actually I wonder whether it's the same in different countries. I've been in the president of Chile come out recently and say oh like to be a leftist now means on people to be on Ukraine side. I know there are countries in Latin America which would become very Russia skeptic partly because of their support for Venezuela. So, as in Russia support Venezuela which is triggered all sorts of problems to Venezuela's neighbors. So I think we have to be nuanced. Yeah, it's the sort of what I mean that I'm helping organize a literary festival in the Viv between October the fifth and the ninth extending a cordial invitation to anything wants to come will be a lot of online events and that's one of the things we really want to do I mean I think that's the sort of work that actually starts with kind of in this case with with quite sort of cultural leadership opinion so British library type people I think writers have a huge role to play in this sort of much slower reframing this is not a fast process. You know, in populations where in a very deep level very historically understandable reasons, Europe in the West is seen as the great colonizers you're not going to click your fingers and go haha look at this. It's going to be a very slow process and for that sort of thing books are very important and novels and films are very important. And so that kind of level I don't think this is a quick thing that you can change. This is not like a PR solution that you can just, you know, just do overnight. So that kind of journalism, you know, literary journalism maybe would play a very important role here. Looking actually how literatures post colonial literatures develop it's very interesting looking at writers like Yuri Andrew Hovich who's a Ukrainian writer whose early novels were all about this colonial dilemma and the dilemma of it the extent to which you're also sort of bought by the colonial ruler and become part of the system. It's a very complicated process. It's not, it's not simple at all. And, and, and looking away that experience has plays out in South Asia and Latin America be really interesting. So that that's one thing but but again that there are multiple things they really are multiple issues here, some which are much more short term the security one or the war crimes one. Sean, Sean mentioned being in Russia a long time and really, we have to understand that what Russia is doing is the Russian way of war that we saw in, in Chechnya, you know, the sort of like raising cities and slaughtering civilians as a tactic in Syria and it's now happening again. Really important to bring those strands together what's happening now is not an accident. And, and, and who could forget about Georgia sorry, and, and really bringing those strands together so when you do, you know, Natalia and I are working on a big project together and that's kind of the aim what we're trying to do as we cover something like Mario Paul we want to bring in voices from me and from Aleppo. So, so I think those sort of things very important that that relates directly to war crimes culpability norms, are we, are we going to accept this form of warfare in 21st century or not. So, so there's much more immediate things to do the colonial one I think is a slow burn. Yeah, go, go and Sean. Yeah, no I was just going to say I mean I think one thing that I think will change now and will be, and will be part of that slow change is in terms of the way we cover Ukraine I mean first of all this is clearly it's just but for even if there is Ukraine fatigue people are not as interested as they were in February for many years to come, people are going to be much more interested in Ukraine than they ever were before. And you know, when I used to be based in Moscow, and I would come, maybe a couple of times a year to do stories and give, and every time I would speak with government officials or all kinds of people there was a kind of a frustration that why is Ukraine only being covered by Moscow correspondence like you're coming here, even if you are writing these sort of mostly critical stories about Russia you're still by being based in Russia you have this kind of Moscow prism in the way that you look at Ukraine. And I was used to be a bit, you know annoyed by that and think it was totally unfair, but in retrospect, you know clearly that's a problem. Clearly it's a problem that you know, and I think it's a mix of a bunch of things. It's partly also declining newsroom budgets and so on but you know you had this country that one of the biggest countries in Europe, constant fascinating political upheavals really interesting geopolitical and you know you had a few bias correspondence in Kiev you had, you know, Chris Miller who is an American journalist who was based in Kiev and pretty much in terms of major newspapers. Maybe there's a BBC correspondent but you know there weren't many correspondents who are there. And I think that's going to change, you know with the Guardian we've we've hired a great journalist to be based in Kiev is about I saw the Washington Post has set up a Kiev bureau I think New York Times is doing the same. You know maybe that's, maybe you might argue that's a little bit late but I think as a way to sort of look at Ukraine. Both, you know, both to increase the number of Ukrainian voices but also to, if you're talking about foreign correspondents to, to look at the country from the position of Kiev rather than from the position of flying in from Moscow. I can imagine that that is also both going to increase the amount of coverage and it's going to lead to a sort of more nuanced and perhaps a different slant of coverage. The problem was always about the cliche. We somehow get used to the worst. I mean, every single country is different. However, still we kind of looked at the template of the worst we have in the 90s into And I think after the Second World War, you know, despite everything I kind of I covered other conflicts globally, but really, this kind of an obvious fight against the sovereignty of another country, they were not so many cases, like if we're really a bigger country invading, you know, like they were we can stick to Kuwait and the other cases, but really of this scale not. So it's easier to go to quite a usual template. And that's became a problem the frame. And I think also this idea about the fatigue and powerlessness is coming from that way because it very rare when the words are happening in the democratic countries. So usually you would focus on some persecutions and some other things and there is a particular way you report the, you know, the authoritarian countries, the role of the government. So, there is a system in place, and all of a sudden there is this war in Ukraine, which is fight fought in the democratic country, where in some way, the people speak the same the government says the same about the solutions. There is the parliament, there is the press, and it's still kind of covered partially as if it's like an opposition voice to something bigger. And I think this is the reason why it's very difficult or called to report not difficult it's actually very easy to report the war crimes compared to for instance, you know places where there is very difficult access. So all the patterns of the international investigations are created in the closed spaces, where you really get into, you know, the whole task is just to the get to the place. And there would be a couple of the organizations working there and telling this story in Ukraine. All of a sudden people do not know and do not know how to cover the war in the very open country, where you can communicate with the government when you can't when the country is functioning. So you still started to do all the stories about it know refugees, IDPs and then understand it's something different. You know, I think also it's a trap, the good trap for us, which I hope Russia would be caught, because everything which has happened, of course, in Chechnya in Syria is happening in Ukraine. But there, it was still a matter of a different country. So, you know, there was no, was less case for a place for the investigation. Because it was always these questions and the moral dilemma, can you really get into the sovereignty of another country. So for instance, there is still doesn't matter we don't like this government, it's maybe authoritarian, but it's still legit. Aren't we supporting the opposition, you know, do we have a sovereignty as another state to, you know, do more. And in case of Ukraine, it's different because it was an attack on the sovereign country with the functioning government, not a kind of an opposition to the authoritarian country. And I feel that the steel, you know, attitude and pattern how a lot of internationals deal is based on this on kind of on different terrain. It's getting better. It's getting better, but still I think it's something to to to to, first of all, agree that it's a different way we used to cover the worst they are all the same for the people who suffer, but politically they organize differently. And shortly on the colonialism I fully agree on that, that it's very critical the Russian imperialism is partially the responsible for that we didn't speak about that for a long time. And the big task for Ukraine, it's really the task for Ukraine to reach out to the, you know, to the global south. I feel it's critically important because for me, you know, being more politically on the left, you know, spending time in the Arab world, you know, I mean, knowing quite a lot of people in, in a position to their governments in Brazil elsewhere I feel really that it's critically unfair that Ukraine isn't treated, you know, as, as the ones of their coes and I do right. Yeah, that is so my my next question was about global south we do have some questions coming in keep them coming we'll get to them in a minute. But my next question was going to be about global sounds because it is also extraordinary to me when you're in the region, you know, things feel very black and white the minute you slightly step out a step away, and get, you know, look at the bigger picture it is extraordinary how many countries and people around the world for whom Ukraine should be much more relatable are in fact, either indifferent or consciously choosing Russia side, and seeing this as a sort of as a Western war. So, and this is to all three of you. If you have got any, you know, do you have have any thoughts like what do we do about that. Interesting Natalia that you say reach out to the global south as you know Ukraine as the state anything else. It would take the time but I have like a short idea. You know I thought that the global solidarity was often based on this kind of negative mode of enemy of my enemies my friend, you know that there are these bad guys and we together because there are these bad guys. And I think it's a time to find the kind of the positive bond between the countries in a way that we fighting for something good together. In this regard for Ukrainians for a lot of Ukrainians the painful story is of course the pope. You know, who is a great person what I understand but he even him because I talked to I'm not religious but I talked to a lot of religious leaders people those who have access. And for them, it's also very painful for instance to observe that still even the pope would treat the war as you know too big imperialist country you know like it's two imperialist countries fight, however it's a country. It's a fight between the empire and the colony. And I do think in this way, even the pope turns to this idea of an enemy of my enemy, instead of you know being concentrated on the rethink in the freedom rethink in the democracy rethinking you know what not rethinking anyway but how we find the new way to implement it, you know, in the modern way in the digital world, and that's where my thinking would go first of all. Peter, you look like you have something to say. No, I'm saying really enjoying this. I mean I think a very important part of this is of course strengthening Ukrainian voices in the world so we have Natalia. But you know, the more Ukrainians get to speak for themselves, not just in reporting but also in opinion places and on talk shows and all that sort of things important I think in Germany for example you still have a case that you know the situation is is described especially on German talk shows from the point of view of either pro Russian German pundits, or, or maybe liberal Russians but still not with Ukrainians very often. I think that really really needs to change. I think that is changing I mean I'm so glad to finally see this incredible crop of Ukrainian writers getting some international publicity I've actually been. I try to force my editors at the London review of books for so many years to focus on this. I think the literature classes as well as the media classes have a huge responsibility to counterbalance what Sean was talking about this this blind spot that we had for several decades about what is Ukraine. They're just completely uninterested, they just ignored all my all my pleas, which was really really sad and I think the literary classes also have responsibility in creating an informational landscape where we knew so much so little about Ukraine and helps in their own very small way, create the conditions that made Russia's invasion easier. I'm really glad to see that changing I'm really glad to see this whole crop of Ukrainian writers suddenly being translated into English, writing wonderful essays everywhere. So like we're not really in a world where where we have to depend on on the sort of the tough foreign correspondent roaming around war zones with a hip flask and sort of a really really unhappy childhood in a Catholic boarding school, we can really move beyond that. I mean the work of Guardian and Sean do is remarkable but but we're really not at that stage of journalism I think. You know we talked about the, we talked about the global south and the need to need to be able to relate to those audiences for Ukraine, you know the need for Ukraine to explain how Ukraine's flight is not all that different for from the plight of some of the colonial countries in Africa and in Asia and Latin America. But how do we reach the audiences in the West, who are also, if you think about it should be natural allies and you know Sean one that I'm thinking about is the, you know the anti war coalition people. It always amazes me that the NATO argument is so strong the argument used kind of the argument that introduces doubt into into this like who is right and who is wrong in this war is the argument of NATO expansion. So, I wonder, like, what, what, like, how do you, how do you talk like what stories do you tell that audience to to address that. Yeah, I mean I think there were there are different parts of that audience. And I think, you know, my unscientific guest is that a large part of it has at the minimum perhaps not done a 180 degree turn but at the minimum has changed their views a bit or tempered their views a bit since February because you know what, for all that it's absolutely correct that we should see this in the sort of long period of the last 10 perhaps the last 30 perhaps the last hundreds of years. And that you know this is the reinvasion and not the invasion and so on and so on I mean there was something qualitatively different about what happened in February I mean this is it just it reached a point that is very very hard to defend even if you were previously a lunatic to Russia. And whereas with 2014. You know, you could just about start to make some arguments without being a lunatic about what happened there with with what happens this February I think a lot of people who previously would have said well, you know we may not be fans of Putin but have suddenly had to like, remove some of the parts because because they've seen what's happening. Then I think you have you know you have a group of that audience who are who are deep into the conspiracy zone and you know everything that happened in Ukraine as the result of the State Department and you know that there's a global conspiracy and so on and so on. And that that segment is probably going to be harder to reach. And perhaps you do have still in the middle. Some people who we do need to think about, you know the things that Natalia was saying about partly a job for Ukrainians themselves partly a job for the media perhaps about trying to tell this story in, in ways that make people understand that this is not about, you know, Joe Biden against Vladimir Putin this is this is something different and I think, I mean I don't know my, I mean I perhaps I'm giving the media too much credit but I think people have been telling the story in those ways and I think it has been changing people's views and I think you know Natalia is absolutely right about this kind of negative solidarity that we had before I mean you know you with the exception of a few people for your crazy people perhaps you would very rarely when you're talking about Russia to people in Germany or other European countries here people say you know I love Vladimir Putin I think everything he's done in Russia. I still hear things like, you know I was I happened to be speaking to at a panel with the advisor to the Dutch Prime Minister a month ago now so still in the midst of very very active fighting more than a month ago, who said, we need to find an offer for Putin. So that's a big gap between the way this war is perceived in, you know, in the region and the way it's perceived in the way. That's a slightly different question isn't it that's about you know, is there a way, is there a way to I mean there's one view that's like this war either ends with the defeat of Ukraine and perhaps Europe or ends with the defeat of Putin. And you know that's, and there's another view that you know, perhaps there is still a way to have an off ramp which seems pretty unlikely at this point, but I think in terms of just where the sympathies lie and where the solidarity lies. I think a lot of those people who are saying we need to find an off ramp, but perhaps much less amenable to sort of talking about this in, you know, both sides is as they might have been six months is my feeling. And just in case any of the audiences are not sure a question for all three of you and if you can be brief in your answer, you say it's not about this this war is not about Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin so Sean to you first what is this war about. I mean, I don't know how you can be brief with that answer I think it's about so many different things, you know, I there's a lot there are a lot of people who that you know I've read, I've read very many different things about you know this is the one reason or this is not the reason there's nothing to do with NATO this is everything to do with NATO this is all to do with disdain for Ukrainians as as a nation and not believing they're real. This is Putin gone mad in the bunker over two years of COVID. This is Russian society built up on propaganda for years and years. This is, you know, Putin being scared of a democratic country next to him. And I think, you know, exact measuring exactly which parts of which elements is in percentage is quite difficult but I wouldn't pull out one reason I think that like there was a basically a kind of for me it seems there was a kind of perfect storm of many different reasons that have led to this decision. That was not an answer short. I have one. What is this for about. I do have. I do think this is the war really about different ways of governance, and to show that it's possible in the very same part of the world, because if you really start to and that's not something I favors that much you know to make this kind of comparison all the why Ukrainians are different from Russia what makes them different. And then you can speak about the language identity you know religion heroes. However, I would still say that what Russia doesn't really like in Ukraine, it's the way it's governed in a way that it's the way it's governed and with the will of people doesn't matter what it would be, because within this last eight years we had totally different governments with different ideologies, you know, not really opposite but kind of, you know, one more probably was more conservative more identity politics, nationalistic and other was like more centrist and even like a bit a little you know it doesn't matter what but it's it just was chosen to be different. So we see the most critical thing, what makes a country's difference and what actually people see being different by the way they want to run it. Russia wants really like how to say more or less a hierarchical authoritarian way. So for me, the analogy for today, without using kind of this off ramp, and I can go, I won't go for too long about that. But I, I only think that like, look at the, the closest analogy for me today comes is like northern and southern Korea. They are even the same kind of nation, you know, not really like Ukrainians and the Russians are different people from different ethnic groups. But at the same time, within the years this country developed a part. There is a different society, which used to live differently. And there is no way that somebody in Seoul would buy into anything, you know, the Kenyan would do or vice versa right away. So that's something which had already happened within the last decades, with different countries. And it's there. And that's it. It just so I do see the way of coexistence of these two countries. And I see the way that the societies are just and that the war, which we, which we're fighting, then we can go for a lot of other things on top of that, or which are developing from this analogy for me. But but it's really about the way of the governance. You said Sean's answer was not an answer. What is the answer. I did swiftly add that I probably do the same thing. I agree with Natalia that one of the things that really I can't quite answer in my head, not in a clean way is this incredible question. Russia and Ukraine, a lot of shared history, colonial history in many ways, but in all ways really, but a lot of shared history, neither of them on any part EU accession, very similar 1990s in the sense that, you know, certain Westerners corruption, gangsterism. And with really with the so much in common one country goes in one direction and chooses to let's let's let's let's not avoid this question. Russia chose to go with the authoritarian. It really did. I mean, it voted for Putin, it voted for Putin, but there was still a chance to vote for someone else. It was a choice. It was like we need the strong hand that was very popular and public opinion. While Ukraine goes completely different direction. And we can look at everything from the presence of oil or just imperial baggage is but it's so fascinating to see how they go in these different directions. But again, I think that's the universal story. I think we're going through a period now of really asking what the hell is democracy. I live in the United States of America. I actually work at a faculty at Johns Hopkins University. It was basically dedicated to answer this question. So it's a lot of academics, a lot of very interesting conversations about what is democracy. It's not just institutions, but it's this weird thing called discourse as a set of values at civic relations. You know, we had all these assumptions in the Cold War that it was like free markets free people, you know, whatever like you know, a bunch of kind of like simple institutional coder, dare I say, but now we realized something much, much, much more complex. And again, then it's, you know, the Ukraine, Russia war is is about that about what is democracy because it's not just institutions I've had so many people in DC lecture me that Ukraine is not a real democracy because it has a weak civil service and I'm like, you're missing the point. It's got more democracy than many other places that might have some of those formal things to their advantage and has many other institutions, formal and semi formal, which we don't understand. And we don't factor in when we think about democracy. And, and so, you know, until it talks about governance and she's written about that beautifully in the Atlantic recently. I'm really trying to understand what are the wellsprings of an organization of a democratic society for all of Ukraine's problems with the court system and sector it's got all these other. What we refer to civil society institutions I hate the term civil society I think it's a very lazy time for stuff that we can't categorize. It's just so vital and that actually might well be missing in the West. So, again, it's the universal thing, what do we mean by democracy if it isn't just like, you know, there is something I want to add because Peter said like he doesn't know why the countries went apart. Last year we've done the really long documentary series on the Ukrainian 90s, which were devoted to the 30 years of independence and what we understood. It was a very traumatic experience, but somehow the Ukrainians managed to overcome and find that they get something in the end they get something. They kind of left it they live through that. Why in the end Russia, Russian spell, and there was a play by the state by propaganda, you know, coming back to this raven schism in a way that we lost we didn't gain, and which is more or less based on the Empire sentiment. The fact that Ukraine is spare from that, which allowed it to move further, because there was nothing really that exciting to look back, and the Russian government, the Russian propaganda wherever who decided in Russia and partial society, made this society to look past instead of looking forward. So for me, that would be one of the root causes, as you said the quota is looking the root causes, but one of the root causes where the break happened that after 30 years Ukrainians feel that they gain something, something they want to And somebody who just feel like there is nothing in the future, all the goodies in the past. Yeah, I mean very much tied to that. And to the kind of the bigger question that all of you have had worked with on, you know, what are the sort of these big questions that Ukraine that all of us are grappling with from, you know, the Philippines to Colombia, and like how Ukraine is helping to to answer some of these questions. But we have a we have a question from the audience along, kind of along the same lines, has the assault on Ukraine shown us where in the west, that despite the claims of the Canadian Freedom Conway, remember the truckers you might have been too distracted by the water remember them, and their likes that we are more free than we had thought, does it not also challenge us to rethink what we do with that freedom. That's a question from from the audience. So does Ukraine challenges to rethink what we do with our freedom. Jump in, whoever wants to be a question for Peter. Yeah, that's all that as well. Have you cranias made us rethink what to do with our freedom. Is that the question. Yes. Does he show that we, we as in the Western does Ukraine show that Western societies are more free than they have thought and should that freedom be treated differently. Okay, I mean like the word freedom is a is a really messed up one. You know, there's, there's even a there's even a quote is in that book by that, that American writer was named again for freedom when he unpacks the word freedom for hundreds and hundreds of pages in novelistic form so I'm not going to go down the sort of rabbit hole trying to find what freedom is. But something very strange happens to you when you cross the border from Poland into Ukraine, something ever experienced over and over and over and over, which is stuff that in our words that in our world that abstract, like democracy or freedom or values which is another one that makes me always want to rock myself. Suddenly become real experience and concrete. You know, we fight for our values when Ukraine literally are fighting for their lives. And that happens over and over and over a lot of a lot of small things as well I mean you start to look at the sky differently in Ukraine because it's a source of danger and hope and all these things that the land around you and the architecture around you starts to be filled with huge political meaning. And so Ukraine is this very interesting territory where where the metaphorical becomes literal where where the figurative becomes lived experience and built experience of it. And, and I really recommend people to go to just experience and it really hits you the moment you cross the border. And it's very strange when you, when you come out again how this very sadness because you know that like you've just left a territory of danger to one of safety, and it's just a silly border that was in the way. And, and those look up at the sky and suddenly realize you're looking at the sky in Poland in a different way that you looked at Ukraine because you're looking constantly at the sky and a little bit of fear in Ukraine. And you leave and suddenly the sky is free of fear but also meaningless. And I don't know, I, I, I think you create is absolutely vital now as a place where all these abstract terms become real. It's very unfortunate, you know, I'm just probably to add on this practical, you know, there are some positive things how you feel these things. And just given the example of what people said, I'm just sitting on the spot, you know, like exactly where I am in Slovakia to town on the very north of Ukraine close to Chernobyl. And the lady who was sitting here before me I was doing the interview, they spent one month almost one month in March in the basement in the village near town of Cherniv, where around 370 people stayed. And they were really deprived physically they are normal the lady works for the Chernobyl nuclear power plant she's engineer and other was the head of the tourist agency you know like that just as usual people as you can imagine. And they were really technically they went from this village they were passing by but they were deprived of their liberty for one month. And they've a very concrete meaning of the world, you know, when they got free. But I should say that what is interesting for me to, to add on that it's really like a lot of. Again, like it's a very unfortunate what's happening. And, but it's true when things are existential, they really have the meaning so in Poland when I go out and I see the field, which is like green, the first thing I see like oh the crops would be there in the south in Ukraine when I've been before. But they probably a mind, and you won't walk there any longer and that's how you feel about a very basic thing, you know, like the green crops in the village in the countryside. But what I find interesting about the rethinking the freedom it's maybe more about Ukrainian society rather than something global. For a while, Ukrainians because they were colonized. So it's kind of a rebel is a nation nation. So our freedom was always freedom from somebody. You know, like from the Tsar from the, from the King or anybody or Communist Party. It was something rebellious. What I started to feel now the people more refer in Ukraine to freedom as the right to choose and right to decide. It's a freedom of responsibility that we are responsible for how we want to live. We are responsible for our community. And I'm really, really enjoying that I think it's fragile because the word is a word it's, you know, it's fragmenting societies it's toxic doesn't matter what I mean I wouldn't I won't be the person who would search something good in that. I still try to find the silver lining. And I do think that this rebellious freedom is moving to the freedom of responsibility for your choice, which I do think would be very, you know, fruitful for the future of the country. Natalia, we are out of time but what an absolutely amazing notes to end on very inspirational and very thought provoking. Thank you so much everyone. Very quickly, a shameless plug but there is a question about what is authoritarian tech that Peter mentioned earlier go to coda story.com and you will find out. Sorry, we don't have time to address it. Thank you so much, Sean Natalia Peter. Thank you so much for participating. Many many thanks to the British Library and the events team for organizing this and to all of you for attending and I hope you'll stay cool. Thank you.