 She was saying to me, isn't there an actual danger in becoming too God dependent? And I said, well, if you really look closely at that, I would say there would be a seeming danger becoming dependent on a concept of God, because to me God is undefinable. So as soon as you try to define the infinite, or define the eternal, or even to define love, to me that's what missing the mark is about, to hold on to a concept. And so I laughed and I said, yeah, my grandmother used to tell me don't get too fanatic on religion and it was the same kind of thing. I could understand where she was coming from. Don't get too fanatic on theology, because you're in trouble if you put all of your emotional and your psychic aids, so to speak, in the basket of some kind of theology. I feel like we need to be freed of all theology, that there's an experience that transcends all theologies. And so at some point I remember asking Jesus about religion and he said, what is religion? And he said it's inner peace. And he said nothing about theologies or beliefs in God. And I feel like it to be truly God dependent is just to be dependent on the present moment, because I feel the present moment is our gateway back to eternity. All the perennial wisdoms have said just live in the moment, trust in the moment, be still now, be here now, Ram Dass. It's all been pointing to the present moment. And if that's authentically our gateway, just right here and right now, then that's what the opening to the experience of God would be. And to be dependent on God would be to live in the moment. There's really just a simple way of saying it. Not dependent on a theology or even having to have a precise name for God, and say Yahweh or Jehovah and so many different names, but not to be dependent on a name or a theology. And to me that's what this living experience of love is about. It's about not holding on to any definitions of the world. If you have no definitions of anything, you have nothing to defend. Then you can be in a state of meekness and a state of defenselessness when you're just surrendered and yielded into that present experience. So that's the easiest way to be God dependent is to give yourself over to the moment. And all cares and concerns are gone in that. And part of the joy is to be able to witness, because for people that are opening to this experience, there are things that arise in awareness that seem to be practicalities. And I think we have to be very welcoming of all those thoughts. We can't push them away, we can't dismiss them, we can't even deny them. We don't want to deny any emotions. We don't want to deny anything that's arising. We want to welcome whatever arises, just that we may see the impossibility of it, the nothingness of it. That's our purpose. We just have had things wired a certain way, and now we have to see we don't need to wire them that way. Emptiness is not loss. The big of emptiness as fullness is really, it's just when there is nothing there in terms of concepts and distractions, then that's the fullness of being. And so that is worthy of our attention. When we have a scrap of something that comes in to try to get our attention, that's the time to be willing to let it go. And it's a great discovery actually to see that everything's just perfect when there's perfect stillness and emptiness. Nothing to be fixed, nothing to be changed, nothing to be improved, just let all things be exactly as they are. Letting go of the mentality that there's something to correct, something that needs to be corrected. It's a good idea that in reality there is nothing to forgive. Forgiveness is just release as long as you believe that there's something other than the moment. And when you have an experience that there's not, then there's nothing to release. Just in other words, it goes by as well. Healing occurs the instant that you see no value and sickness and suffering. So you could imply from this that there only seems to be the experience for the feeling of suffering as long as it's valued. And that seems a bit twisted to value suffering. There has to be some kind of trick going on in the mind to be attracted to misery. People who have addictions talk about there's a subtle traction to the suffering, to the misery that perpetuates the addiction. So when we talk about the emptiness that I was just speaking of, the healing or the experience of the impossibility of suffering can only come when the mind is completely empty of everything that it thinks it knows. Because there's a fear of letting go into the light. And that fear is the loss of a separate self, the loss of identity. When Jesus talks about healing occurs the instant that you see no value and sickness, he's saying, and what does this decision cost you? It costs you the whole world you see. So that we're starting to get a sense of, oh, there's a reason why I'm holding back. There's a reason why I would try to maintain suffering just because I'm afraid I could lose the whole world I see. It's the disappearance of the universe that is fear or the light that is beyond the disappearance of the universe.