 As friends we've gathered, hearts are true, spirits near we call to you. Daddy, we found the money. That's a scene from the movie Ouija, Origins of Evil, where the family is gathering around the Ouija board and get some rather unexpected results. It's a cautionary tale that seems to fit with today's interview with Dr. Mark Pitstick, who along with Dr. Gary Schwartz from the University of Arizona have designed, patented, and are marketing the Soul Phone. Here's a clip from the interview and stick around after the show for the one question I have on this one is interesting and I think it's one I really really like to get input on. So if you do stick around to the end, let me know what you think. Okay, here goes the interview. First of all, people need to understand that the research of Dr. Schwartz, the University of Arizona, is, as far as we know, the only truly scientific, replicated control, double blind, all that, than I mentioned, research being done. The others you mentioned are mediumistic research and some mediums are rock stars. Yeah, it was how Dr. Schwartz got into this area when he, after he left Yale and came to University of Arizona 20 some years ago, documenting that some mediums are very highly evidential. But again, some of those have bad days, make mistakes, et cetera. But Mark, I mean, the problems here are almost too many to even start with, but you're the guys who open that up. Why do you think you can open up the door and say, trust us, we know what we're doing. We talked to the A team. And by the way, the A team includes Michael Jackson, who, you know, the Jesus juice reach around pedophile Michael Jackson. He's on the A team, right? Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex, and you know, I don't usually read bios into the intros of these interviews, but Mark has an exceptionally impressive and an exceptionally good one. So I thought I would read it. Dr. Mark Pitzdick has over 40 years experience in hospitals, pastoral counseling settings, mental health centers, and private practice. His training includes pre-medical degree, graduate in theology and pastoral counseling studies, masters in clinical psychology, and doctorate in chiropractic health, which is no joke in my opinion is fantastic. He has also provided suicide prevention counseling and education to many, many people. He began having clairvoyant experiences around the age of 10 and has been blessed with numerous miracles in his life, revelatory experiences, spiritually transformative experiences. Are you getting a kind of feeling for why I wanted to read all this in pretty amazing. After working on hospitals with many suffering and dying adults and children, he was motivated to find sensible evidence-based answers to the questions that many people ask. Actually, I think many people should be asking more on a regular basis. Who am I? Why am I here? What happens after I die? Will I see departed loved ones again? Is there God? Why is there so much suffering? So his books, documentary films, and workshops have grown to address all of these questions. Dr. Pitstick wrote Soul Proof, Compelling Evidence That No One Really Dies, and Radiant Wellness, A Holistic Guide for Optimal Body, Mind, and Spirit. And I think there's another book in there that I may not have mentioned, but I'm sure we will get Mark to talk about it. Mark, welcome to Skeptico. Thanks for coming on. I should mention to people, you know, the primary reason you're here today is to talk about this Soul Phone project, which a lot of people have heard about. I've referenced this show a couple of times. I have a lot of questions about it, so it's great to have you here. Thank you, Alex. My pleasure. Let's dive in. Do it. What's the Soul Phone for the uninitiated? Give us the big picture of you. How many days do you have? Keep it brief, because my audience knows this stuff, and we're going to get to level three really, really quick on this. I mean, so just give us the high level. Okay. The Soul Phone project Alex is being conducted by Dr. Gary Schwartz, as you mentioned, and his team of electrical engineers, optical physicists, software programmers, and evidential mediums. At the University of Arizona's laboratory for advances in consciousness and health. He's been working for 16 years to capture the signal of spirit, and the trick is capturing their signal amidst the noise. There are four anticipated devices. Right now we are working on the Soul Switch, we say, which is a binary indicator. For yes, no answers from those living in the next realm, what we call post-material persons. Quick side note, we don't call them spirits. We definitely don't call them dead or departed or deceased, because they're none of that. It turns out, and we know this from a series of different experiments, they are just as physical as we or can be if they wish. There's good evidence they can multi-locate, they can be pure energy, or they can manifest in physical form. So we call them post-material persons, and those of us who are living on Earth, material persons. So the switch, the Soul Switch, then allows them to answer yes, no. We've been using what we call the plasma globe system, which uses a Tesla coil to measure their signal. And seven different experiments have clearly shown their accuracy in doing this. We've collected over one trillion bits of information in something like, excuse me, 4500 sessions with them over the last year. However, the plasma globe system isn't commercializable, it's too large. And so now we're working on what's called the electronic Soul Switch, which could be the size eventually of a cell phone, which would allow 98% accurate, instantaneous yes, no answers. However, even that amazing as it is, isn't considered to be a commercializable device. The main use for the Soul Switch is to connect about 40 of those in parallel and create a Soul keyboard, just like we have 40-some keys on the laptop in front of you. And then we'll allow much greater quality and quantity of input from what we call our A team, 30 or so post-material luminaries. People like Carl Sagan and Nikola Tesla, Einstein, Edison, David, Bohm and others, who have been feeding pieces of information via evidential mediums to date. But even the best evidential mediums have off days, monkey mind gets involved, etc. So once we have the keyboard to allow substantial input of quality and quantity of information, then the creation of the last two devices, Soul Voice, like talking on a cell phone, Soul Video, like we're doing now, FaceTime, Zoom, Skype, should be possible. So this is happening in our time for communicating with our, quote, departed loved ones, but also tapping into those luminaries who want to help us heal our world and ourselves. Boy, man, I don't know where to begin because I have so many. You kind of get me riled up with a lot of that stuff. So we'll just kind of take it one step at a time. Like I said, you know, before we got on air, I've known Gary Schwartz for a long time, talked to him years ago, have interviewed Julie Bauschel on this show. Many times have interviewed some of the mediums who are in your panel of advisors. So I'm very familiar with the topic, very familiar with the area. I am super impressed. I think the most amazing thing what you guys are doing is you're essentially doing the next version of the double slit experiment. So in terms of just where it is in further solidifying or falsifying materialism, I think is phenomenal. That's an extension of Dean Radin's double slit experiment of a meditator because what you guys are doing, maybe we should talk a little bit about that before I hammer on you on Michael Jackson's reach around and why he'd be on your a team and why God needs our help with your soul phone and your commercialized a soul switch before we get there. Let's talk about the device because I think people who are interested scientifically a photon beam and a camera are the technology that are now within reach economically to kind of make some of this stuff viable. Explain to people the basic setup for why you would even be so bold to suggest you could do this stuff. Well, first of all because as mentioned seven different experiments yielding a ton of data have indicated and the terms we have to use and there's a long list are these research experiments are replicated, which means they've been done by other people and other centers. They are controlled, which means anytime we allow a post material participant to signal an answer, ask them a yes or no. There's a corresponding baseline period control where nobody is doing anything. So for each experiment, we can see the difference between baseline, which is kind of like the horizontal axis flat line EEG or EKG not much happening versus the spikes when they touch the particular device to answer yes or no. This research is also double blinded. Sometimes Dr. Schwartz doesn't know who's going to be involved when at which lab and so on. And finally, it's peer reviewed been published in peer reviewed scientific journals in 2010 2011 most recently an Explorer coming out this year and the seminal paper being written right now, hopefully for science advances. So there's been real scientific research and, you know, I like a lot of people have beliefs about whether there is an afterlife or how some of this works. But the true scientist has to follow the data. And when you have this much data, making this clear of a picture, then one needs to follow that. I'll pop up on the screen here for people here and I'm going to refer to this a couple times because it's got some good stuff in it. It's a press release that you guys issued a couple years ago in 2017. And I like, you know, so again, you have multiple kinds of experiments mark that you've done and that Gary has done in case people are interested in coming at this from purely a physics perspective. One of the most elegant, beautiful physics experiments in the world is the double slit experiment, where a photon beam is shot through and it either becomes everybody knows the experiment, it's either a wave or a pattern, based on whether there is an observer. And all this implies that consciousness is somehow fundamental and that the standard model of materialism fails. And the early experiments that you did was setting up a photon beam in a lab and shooting the camera at it so that you could watch that photon beam and then doing your thing in terms of querying these hypothesized entities in this extended consciousness. In this extended consciousness realm and getting them to answer. You may be right about the details of that Alex, but it was before my time on, I've been with Gary now for four years the, the photon beam experiment that he was doing at that time involved a photon beam or a laser beam, going from point point A to point B and a sensor measured how long it took, and the table is pretty long like 10 feet long but it was in nanoseconds, then a, the control was of course nobody's in a room nobody's doing anything so we know that set time, then for the human things we put a human hand through the beam or a plexiglass hand through the beam and showed a market decrease in the time it took to get from point A to point B. Then one of the quote spirit participants put their hand through again because they still have density or can have, and indeed it was less than a human or plexiglass of course they're in another dimension hello, but it was highly statistically significant versus the control groups. Perfect, that's, that's great. So that's, and that's just one of the experiments. And there's a bunch of different experiments that have been done. And as you said they've been replicated across multiple labs, completely flies in the face of a materialistic explanation for that. Again, you guys are playing by the rules right so science says sets it up and says, these are the rules these are how you would determine whether, you know, you can measure things and in that way. So we're beyond that but here's where the problem gets in. All the other stuff you've said is an interpretation of that that not everyone's on board with. I mean, even take Dr. Julie Beischel over at the Windbridge Institute. They've been doing this for a long time with mediums. They're not coming to exactly the same conclusions. You talked to mediums mediums. They're coming to all I've interviewed him on this show, even the ones who are doing this as scientifically as I can, as they can. They're coming to all sorts of different conclusions about how these extended realms work, who is involved in these extended realms. And I think a lot of people would be very hesitant to say that you're a team with Michael Jackson and Harry Houdini and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle that you are really connecting with those. We don't even know what what what those spirit beings would begin to to. You don't like my term spirit being spirit being. I don't like whatever term you're associating with it. We just do we really know enough to start saying that stuff so I don't know matter of faculty. That's a fair question. First of all, people need to understand that the research of Dr. Schwartz University of Arizona is as far as we know, the only truly scientific replicated control double blind all that then I mentioned research being done. The others you mentioned are mediumistic research and some mediums are rock stars. Yeah, it was how Dr. Schwartz got into this area when he after he left Yale and came to University of Arizona 20 some years ago, documenting that some mediums are very highly evidential. But again, some of those have bad days make mistakes, etc. But to answer the question of how we have a very high degree of certainty about who we're dealing with. First of all, about 10 of the evidential mediums and you probably know them all that Gary research in the late 1990s became colleagues. And this is really how all this launch they started independently saying, Gary Albert Einstein keeps coming to me and he keeps telling me that you need to create technology to allow widespread communication between dimensions. And so that's how I got started on it. So that's one clue. Secondly, we have developed a series of tests. The first is called the personal identification test, in which we ask 20 questions. 10 for which the answer should be no 10 the answer should be yes. Again, we have control period where nothing is happening, but they're hitting 80% accuracy and we consider that the other 20% is not that they're wrong about where they grew up or what their mom or dad's name was. It's just the limitations in our tech technology right now to measure their signals accurately. The next test is called the expert knowledge test, where we show a very rarely known very arcane piece of information, for example, part of Albert Dr. Einstein's theory of relativity. I mean something no one would know and no one would certainly understand and show this on the computer screen and say, Einstein, please signal yes, if this is part of your theory of relativity, or if it's work by another prominent physicists back then, the answer should be no. So by doing a series of tests like this and all this independent evidential medium, corroboration, personal identity test, the expert knowledge test. We have a high degree of certainty, but we would never say we have absolute proof we definitively know who are dealing with that appears who are dealing with one last thing on that at this point we're actually not talking about the 18 much. You know, Gary and his wife Rhonda, who's an evidential medium we're trying to be transparent, share all this and years ago again before I came on board. They were ridiculed and criticized pretty heavily Oh really you know Michael Jackson Harry Houdini. And so, a few years ago they said you know what, we are not going to talk about more because we are getting close and closer every day. To letting them speak for themselves, letting them type through messages, letting it them do webinars, and then they can explain a lot of these questions for themselves so it's really a sidetrack. But Mark, I mean, the problems here are almost too many to even start with, but you're the guys who open that up. What why, why do you think you can open up the door and say, trust us, we know what we're doing. We talked to the a team and by the way the 18 includes Michael, Michael Jackson, who, you know, the Jesus juice reach around pedophile Michael Jackson. He's on the 18 right so he's he's one of the 18 guys. I think you are going to get a lot of heat for that, just like you're going to get a lot of heat for the idea that that somehow by asking these questions. You're, you're somehow validating a form that we don't we can't even begin to describe what this form of consciousness is in this extended realm. It seems to me like, like I like to call it backdoor materialism. It's like, okay guys, we're past this idea of materialism and, you know, everything is building blocks and we're meaningless robots, and then you're starting to make all these assumptions about how the extended consciousness realm works. I mean, I don't get how you can do that. So let's we'll start with the 18 Michael Jackson thing. So a lot of people have serious questions legitimate questions about the moral standards of this one individual. A lot of people wouldn't think he'd be on the good side over on that other realm that he might be on that other side. Why would we trust Michael Jackson? Why would we trust the spirit entity that is coming through as identifying themselves as Michael Jackson, even if they know all the personal information and are somehow getting all the rest of that. Well, first of all, you made a statement earlier. We're asking people to trust us. We're not. In fact, we're not doing much media outreach right now. For this very reason, because we're waiting till we have the multi center studies involving six different universities and institutes and other things in place before we do the public demonstration. So we could talk about all day, Alex, but it's another whole nother thing to see the public demonstrations verified by skeptical scientists independent people that it's all above board. What would they be verifying? They would be verifying that all the, in other words, looking at the control, looking at when we're purportedly measuring the signal spirit and making sure that there's no trickery involved. Everything is above board, just like Dr. Schwartz did was with his evidential medium experiments as described in his book, the afterlife experiment. So again, we're not trusting anybody and we're being very selective about doing interviews and probably won't do anymore because until we're ready for all that, because we are, you know, we are not trying to describe the nature of reality. The only thing we will say with absolute certainty and actually 99.9% certainty is that life continues after bodily death. That's been indicated by these replicated experiments and at least some post material persons have demonstrated their ability to communicate and their memory of earthly events. In other words, we do test what we say. Is this a draft? Yes or no? Is this a jet plane? Yes or no? So they remember that. As far as Michael, you have to understand as an open mind and intelligent person that you are, that there's all kinds of evidence out there. There's some horrible toward him that would, yes, make you think he's a pedophile, but also some that say those are trumped up charges, those are uncroborate charges, and I'm not prepared to get into all that. I would say that, yeah, like I say, we're going to let them speak for themselves. For people who want to focus on the negative and Michael Jackson is accused of being this, then they can focus on that. We're focusing on getting the working devices to the point. Dr. Schwartz has recently written two books and the first is called the case for truth about responsible truth seeking with an attorney Alan Borey. Because as you know, we live in a day and age where statements are made in a cavalier way, whether there's any fact behind them or not. So people are distrustful of science. They're distrustful statements in the media and so on. So Dr. Schwartz wanted to write this to help people understand we are following the utmost ethics, so that what we say is based on science. We are not making a new statements about Michael or Harry by that's years old information. The second book that Dr. Schwartz has written is called extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And that's based on a statement by Carl Sagan. And again, making the case that yeah, we're making extraordinary claim here that life continues after bodily death. And at least some people can communicate. And here's our extraordinary evidence behind that. So if you want to talk about the soul phone devices, the science of different experiments great. But if you want to talk about the other, we'll need to abbreviate this. We can, we can of course abbreviate it at any time but the point about Michael Jackson is not whether he's guilty of the crimes that I witnesses have said they've been there and have seen and witnessed and and his attorneys have kind of come out and kind of said things that that's not the point. The point is the assumptions that you guys seem to be making that fly in the face of not just other mediums who've reported these extended consciousness realms differently than you have, but also all Excuse me, Alex, so we can make some headway. Let me remark on that we're not making any claims about the nature of other realms, what it's like there and so on. So there's no, there can't be a difference. Mark, of course, of course you are, of course, you are by the very nature of the way that you described it. You described me go back I can replay it for you I can give you the transcript. You said that these are actual beings and entities that lived here, and that they don't really die and that their personality continues mobile. Maybe those weren't your exact words but you did. Those are all claims about how the extended consciousness realm works and that they have physicality and that they have density. Those are all based, Alex, on a series of experiments. So perhaps it'd be useful for your viewers and I would suggest Mark is that I love the experiment. I love where you're going in terms of falsifying materialism and our expanded understanding of consciousness, because I think that's the greatest contribution we could make. I think it dovetails with the very important near death experience research that has been going on for the last 20 years. It dovetails with reincarnation research, like at the University of Virginia on the near death experience. I know you connected with I ams and Dr. Jeff Long. He's been on this show for many times and is very popular guest. But if you go look at that research, it is very problematic and they acknowledge that it's problematic. If you go look at Jeff Long's database of near death experiences, they're contradictory. They're all over the place. I've interviewed people on this show that have had dramatic spiritually transformative experiences that are extremely Christian based in McCormick as a near death experiencer who now goes around to churches all around the world and his messages. I saw Jesus in my NDE and I'll tell you what, if you saw Jesus in yours, you had a real NDE. If you didn't, it's probably satanic and you need to kind of step back on that. The point is, I think you guys are making the exact same mistake when you start making all these kind of very cut and dried matter of fact statements that you got out of your Ouija board about how extended consciousness works. Well, I would love to explain this to you, Alex, if you would like to listen. In our book Greater Reality Living that Dr. Schwartz and I wrote, we broke down three types of evidence for afterlife and associated understandings. One is scientific research, which is defined as occurring in a university based lavatory using all the things I mentioned before, control, double bind, and so on. To our knowledge, we have heard that there may be some research like this going on in China, but otherwise no one else is doing this sort of scientific research that Dr. Schwartz did. First of all, 20 years ago with mediums as described in this book, the afterlife experiments and secondly now with the Soul Phone Project. Again, seven different experiments which show by replicated data, the ability of post-material persons to have physicality, to move air, to make audio signals, to be visualized, video, etc. That is what I'm basing. Those experiments are what I'm basing my statements on about the nature of post-material persons. You mentioned near-death experiences and other research. That's what we call clinical research. That's done by university professors, physicians, and others in clinical settings. But by the very nature of the experience, near-death experiences, for example, you can't have control groups, you can't have double blind and all the different requirements needed for true scientific work. And then the third group of information or evidence is termed experiential. That is based on firsthand experience. And that's where things can really get variable, not objective. Whereas you say you have one person saying, I saw Jesus, you have another person saying, you know, Jesus wasn't there. So it's very important, Alex, because I know you're a strong voiceness and I hope you take the time to understand this. Are we looking at scientific, clinical, or experiential evidence? So let me try to back off and make this because I'm so supportive of what you guys are doing. And I think it's so important and you're advancing the ball down the field in a super important way with your experiments. It used to be, in my opinion, kind of a problem here that it seems obvious to me. I don't know why you don't spot it more readily, but with what you're calling your laboratory work, you're introducing this hypothesized disincarnate entity. And as you do that, you're no longer doing strictly laboratory work. You're doing clinical work, or you're doing experiential work, just who you've substituted in there is now who not a person per se, but it's a hypothesized person. It's an hypothesized experience. You can still do your laboratory work, like you're doing in my opinion, this is like, I'm not, I don't know this stuff like you guys do. Exactly. It seems to me a stretch to be saying that because we can now treat that hypothesized disincarnate entity as just another instrument in the experiment. I don't get that. Yeah, I really hope, in fact, if you want to deep six this interview and read Greater Reality Living, I will send you literature so you can understand more because, excuse me, it's complicated, Alex, and your viewers deserve to understand all the facts behind it. So the, the very reason we call them hypothesized post material persons are hypothesized collaborators is it is a hypothesis until it's proven. But today we have so many different experiments. They are not the measurement we are measuring in seven different ways their presence. And so by the research we're doing could be and has been done with humans involved. Only in some cases we have allegedly those who have passed on and their signals are there and their signals are highly statistically significant. That's part of the scientific method. And, and by the way, I mean you read all my degrees and studies. I thought I knew about science. But actually, I had to go back and edit my previous books like Soul Proof, because I was guilty of making unsubstantiated statements, statements that went beyond the current evidence. But I can guarantee you that Dr. Schwartz doesn't do that. He's a true scientist. He has a team of scientists who have been his colleagues and advocates. Unfortunately, we live in a realm where, yeah, even studying consciousness is looked down upon. And so some of the scientists have worked with him for decades. Some were his students when he was a Harvard Yale, a professor at Harvard and Yale. They say, Gary, we believe in you. We know you're the best of the best. But we can't come out and publicly say it because we could lose our funding. And so that's the state of things in our world right now. You know, if you try to prove that life after death exists, which is the number one fear and concern of so many people, you're considered kooky. So we're, we're going to change all that. And it's coming, I would just say to your viewers, it's coming. And you can learn a lot more about all this at the website, soulphone.org. And understand these complex topics. Okay, that's fair enough. You've stood up to all my toughest questions. So I'm very, very skeptical of your use of the term laboratory experiments that include hypothesized disincarnated entities as just as like some photon beam over in the corner. But we'll leave that where it is. Tell us what's going on in your world in terms of one of the things that you're doing that I think anyone should be able to get behind and embrace is you're a people helper. You know, when I read your bio, you can read that you've dedicated your life to trying to help people and particularly when people are in a vulnerable grieving situation. Your whole life has been about trying to reach those people and connect with those people and no doubt that's driving this work because you see how comforting and transformational these kind of experience. These kinds of experiences can be for people specifically you seem to be setting up programs in order to bring that kind of relief to people through the soul phone foundation. Tell people more about what you're doing and your personal practice and your books and also through the soul phone foundation. Yeah, we, Dr. Schwartz and I saw early on that there was going to be a huge paradigm shift. And we wanted to help as many people as possible prepare for that wrap their heads around it. I don't know if you saw a Netflix movie a few years ago Robert Redford was a star. And we were excited about it coming out because the premise is very similar to what we're actually doing in the lab. And that is a top scientist proved without a doubt life after death, where they went with it was extremely dark and that is a lot of people around the world committed suicide. And we're like, what can you take a possibly worse scenario from this. But we understand that number one to so many people have had spiritually transformative experiences out of body experiences after death communications shared death experiences, etc. But they think they're the only ones and they are considered, they're afraid of being considered kooky or crazy. You know, it wasn't so long ago, that if someone went to a psychiatrist and said, Hey, when almost does all the light, you know, I don't know. Interestingly, I had an interview with a, I was actually helping a psychiatrist last week. And she was telling me about the various after death communications from her husband who passed on years ago. And she said, I swear to God, I'm not crazy. I really had these experiences and I started laughing. She said you're laughing. I said, Yeah, I never thought I'd live long enough to have a psychiatrist. And she tried to convince me she's not crazy because she's having what I've been teaching people about for 40 years. So maybe the world is ready. So we want to have these greater reality living groups close to pandemic squash those we had about 10 going in a couple countries where people can learn the evidence share their personal experiences learn how to internalize this great news because the guy's superficial intellectual knowing doesn't get us through the day when it gets tough, you know, we're dying or a loved one passes or whatever. We want people who are internalized know it to learn all the benefits that accompany knowing a very high degree of certainty that all this is true. And then finally, how can we serve others and make our world a better place. So that's one of the, the focuses and people can learn more about that by visiting greater reality living. I also just set up with the director of ions, which you mentioned earlier, Chuck sweat rock, a series of monthly presentations for the next year, sharing this with a lot of people. Also, I very heavily involved with the group, helping parents heal us on the board for five years. I write their Q&A, and I train their leaders and their caring listeners. I think we have about 80 groups now around the world. So yes, I've been doing this for 40 years. As, as you said, since working with all these dying people. And before I had the lead with the clinical and experiential evidence, which when taken together is very, very strongly indicated. But now when you add the scientific research that almost nobody knows about. It makes such a strong case and I've had people write me and say, you know, I was thinking about ending my life, but I decided to stick around, because I see hope now, and I want to see how this works out, or how brief parents contact me and say, my husband and I didn't know how we were going to get through this. But thanks to what you are doing sharing all this evidence and the hope of someday having practical, affordable widespread devices, not total certainty, but a good likelihood. You know that helps immensely. Mark, how do you handle religious issues, because again, you know, there's two sides to that. Some people find that comforting. Other people find that oppressive, and particularly people find that in their, through their life experience that has been closing of a door rather than an opening of doors. So there's a whole spectrum people understand that how do you deal with it in terms of this afterlife situation. Yeah, good question depends on which hat I'm wearing Alex the, if I'm the director of the soul phone foundation research assistant for the soul phone foundation, we don't talk about we quit because we know it's just a quagmire and people can get so upset so quickly. However, for my decades wearing the soul proof hat, I addressed it head on because it's such an important topic. As you said, I went to theology school purposely to learn for myself, the true story the original meanings of some of the things in the Bible that any child can hear and go, what's up with that you got a God of unfathomable love and caring, who depending off we believe or do certain things will allow us or put us into a far eternal hell forever. It's schizophrenic. And as you say, many people have been turned off by religion, and I totally understand it. I've had many conversations with people who claim to be atheists or agnostics. When we talk about it, we find that actually what they're rejecting is the arcade dark ages notion of a God is a big guy in the sky sitting on a throne deciding who gets smited and who goes to heaven forever. They do recognize many of them, however, like the force. I mean, the star Star Wars series have done a better job of helping people understand that there's some creative loving supportive presence and power in the universe, better than most religions. And so they they get that some sort of universal consciousness, one mind, look at the nativistic approaches great spirit, etc. So that's why I try to make clear to people like Alice Huxley wrote about the golden threads, the perennial philosophy he called it. So also like Thomas Jefferson, he said look for the golden threads run among the world's great religions. Next, trust your inner voice what makes sense to you about it. And third, look at the contemporary evidence we have. And those three perhaps thing give one the best understanding of what's going on. Let me give you one quick example. You know, we hear about heaven and hell and those have morphed over time into a place way up in the sky or deep in the bowels of the earth. Actually, the Aramaic which is the formative language at the time Judaism Islam and Christianity form. And those in that language, the words for heaven and hell meant how you feel when you die. And you go through a passageway experience a sorting out, and you see what you've done. All right, now let's go fast forward a couple thousand years with near death experiences and so many of them describing one of the most transformative aspects of the NDE being the life review that they not only see it, but feel what they did and said to others. And so that can be very heavenly or it can be very hellish. But that's, and, for example, somebody like Hitler, he may have to sleep for a long time. He may have a hellish life review, but that's different from eternal fiery hell. Great. So markets. Again, super exciting about the work that you're doing. What's the best way for people to stay on top of what's going on and let's say we haven't talked at all about your book what's the best book. We've mentioned several of them. What's the best. I don't know entry point in your opinion for folks who are intrigued with this. Well, first of all, the best. There are two websites that people should see. And the first is soul. And I'm sorry, these are so similar soul proof. So you'll prove calm. That is mine. I have now 75 free articles on it that address the toughest of the tough questions and challenges people go through. When, when your child changes worlds, when a loved one's body is murdered, when a loved one passes by suicide, if you go to home. And then you'll see all the different articles. So these are free articles that people can read. Next, yeah, if you scroll down, you'll see some of these. By the way, there we go. By the way, notice the specific language. When a loved one's earthly body dies, the loved one doesn't die, or at least a wealth of scientific clinical and experiential evidence indicates that, but the body does. So that's one free resource. Next, if you go to the top and to the right, you'll see radio shows. I was a radio show host twice over the last 20 years. And I interviewed people like Wayne Dyer, Brian Weiss, Michael Newton before he passed Bernie Segal, you know, the best of the best. Yeah, actually radio shows, I think it's further to the right. And so there are free interviews with these great minds that people can listen to. There you go. And download. I mean, look at this list. Carolyn Mace, Anita Moore, Johnny, Bill Guggenheim, pioneer and after death communications, etc. And then that list below, I mean, giants. So that's another free resource. The next is signed up for the free email newsletter. So that's all with soulproof.com. And then I have five books, 12 different transformative audio experiences, for example, past life regression, train with Brian Weiss on holistic breathing, etc. To answer your question, the book on the upper left is probably the best entry point for many people about this because it is so vast and complex, can seem overwhelming. This is the most recent book. Is it the big picture of life? Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, that was written Alex for ages 10 to 16. But the feedback we're getting is from adults, they say, I hate to say it, but I got a lot more out of this kids book than I did out of soulproof and greater rowdy living and we understand it. So that's that part the second website again, soulphone.org. And then that's all about the soul phone project, research update, and a number of radio shows that I've done so this is where people can learn about this. Again, because it's just such a big subject, it's mind-boggling really. Well, you've done a great job of laying it out and I'm glad I had a chance to ask you some of the questions that I haven't heard you ask another show so fantastic. Again, congratulations with all this important work and hey, we will be looking forward to it. It can only, it can only help us all with with what you're bringing forward one way or another, we will know we will know more and that's always good. So thank you, Mark. Thank you, Alex. Take care. Thanks again to Dr. Mark Pitstick for joining me today on Skeptico. I know I kind of got in Mark's face, and I guess indirectly Gary Schwartz's face about their soul phone and their soul phone quote unquote laboratory experiments. But in a way, these experiments are fantastic. So if they have a laboratory experiment with a hypothesized spirit entity, isn't that kind of great in a way in that it kind of forces the phony baloney physics materialism, science is wrong about almost everything. It kind of forces their hand, right? Because on one hand, if you want to say, hey, that's not a legitimate experiment, because you have an entity there that may be affecting that experiment. Well, now you've acknowledged consciousness, not only consciousness, but the kind of extended consciousness that we talk about. On the other hand, if you want to try and hold the line and say, well, there's no such thing as extended consciousness, then you've got to let his experiment in and move him right to the front of the line for the Nobel Prize. Hey, he sure has my nomination, right? If you're going to hold to your phony baloney biological robot meaningless universe science, then you've got to let in and experiment that for all the rules does everything right. Now, if we can get to that point, which we most certainly cannot for all the reasons we talk about so often on this show. But if you can get to that point, then you're really at the next level where science needs to be because then and only then can you talk about why we might be a little bit uncomfortable with the reach around Jesus, this juice Michael Jackson purporting to be the guy who's on the other end of your Ouija board. But like I say, we'll probably never get there. But the first part of that question is pretty interesting. What do you think? Hey, the best place to reach me is skeptical forum. You can also shoot me an email. Stick around. I have some good shows coming up. I think until next time, take care and bye for now.