 Okay. Welcome everybody to the December 6, 2023 City of Santa Rosa Cultural Heritage Board meeting. Hope everybody's had a good holiday and we'll go ahead and get started. So, it's not kind of we could have a roll call. Board Member Boran is absent. Board Member Carney is currently absent, but we'll be showing up later. Board Member Fennell. Board Member Klein is absent. Board Member Marslyn. Here. Vice Chair Garrett. Here. Chair Muser. Here. Let's a record reflect that all Board Members are present with the exception of Board Member Boran, Board Member Klein, and Board Member Carney who will be showing up later. Okay. Moving on to Item 2, Approval of the Minutes. Does anybody have any additions we have this September 13th minutes and this September 20th minutes? So, any additions, corrections to those minutes? Okay. We'll let those minutes stand. And Item 3, Public Comments. This is the time when any person may address matters not listed on this agenda, but which are within the subject matter. Wait, what's that, Brian? That's me. Go. The public may comment on agenda items when the item is called. Each speaker is allowed three minutes and not seeing any members of the public. I'll close the public comment. Yes. And just a reminder to those viewing on Zoom, we are only accepting public comment in person. Okay. Moving on to Item 4, Board Business. I'll read our statement of purpose. The principal duties of the Board include undertaking and updating historic inventories or surveys, recommending designation of landmarks and preservation districts, reviewing proposed alterations to historic buildings and promoting public awareness of preservation issues. If you are in a historic district and would like more information regarding historic districts, please see the Processing Review Procedures for Owners of Historic Properties. Item 4.2, a Board Member Reports. So, is that all? No. Any Board Member Reports? No. Okay. I'll close. Then, Item 4.2. Item 4.3 other. We don't have any other items. And Item 5, Department of Reforms. Ms. Murray, give us a nice long report. Well, let's see. Oh, no, I don't have much of a report. I will say that we have another Cultural Heritage Board meeting next Wednesday, which is an off date. I will not be here. I'm going to see Chris Isaac that night. And Kristen Atumians will be substituting a staff liaison. I, the product or the item coming before you is a single family residence located in the McDonald district. So I encourage everybody to look at the plans in advance. And yeah, come prepared for a nice project. This is the project that we previously saw. Some members of the board have seen this on a concept basis. It would be a good idea, I think, for everybody to watch that meeting and just refresh and certainly for those who, who weren't president of it. And I'd be happy to send you a link. I'll send, I'll send all the new your members also on board a link. It looks like they really improved the landscaping. I said, you looked at the project already. I know I bet I saw that. I think the agenda, the reason it hasn't published is my fault. And it's going to be published tomorrow by our amazing Lonnie. That's why it doesn't show. You won't see it yet. Yeah, you will. But it'll only look for your emails that Lonnie sent them. They're not kind of as we need to get that fixed. So Lonnie sends out an email to the board. She's, or staff sends emails to the board. They don't only come from Lonnie for quarry, quarry checks. And to let you know when there's an agenda to review. And it's real handy. You can always, you know, I always check every Friday. Just because, yeah. Yeah. I'm not getting emails. Not since October, November. Okay. We'll give me a call tomorrow and we will get that fixed. She probably emailed me to tell me that my new iPad was in and I didn't get a call. Okay. And I think that that's it for, for board or for department reports. Okay. Okay. So we have five statement of abstentions. We really don't have anything to recuse ourselves from today. So we'll close that item, item seven consent items. We have none. That brings us to today's scheduled item 8.1. And we're going to just take a short recess until board member Carney arrived shortly. Then we'll restart again. We don't want to be here all night. Yep. I can just get fumble. I thought I could come around. Just use my scroll up. And I do want to, you know, take a minute to introduce. Crystal Camp. Who is in training right now and will possibly be our recording secretary. I'm in the future. So welcome. Thank you. Okay. Moving on then to item, item 8.1, which is a workshop and as I, as I promised the board before, we'll try to keep this. I think we've been an hour and a half of the workshop. So the purpose of this presentation that I'm going to make is to bring awareness and understanding of the process and the costs related to residential. And we're just going to stick with residential. Okay. Landmark alteration permits. This presentation will take us to a process of getting a major landmark alteration permit. Which vice chair Garrett actually signed the resolution to in the past. Of it involved repairing and remodeling a front porch. At the end of the presentation, we'll be able to discuss ideas that you may have for changes that may make. A major landmark alteration process is easier for homeowners in an effort to achieve greater compliance. And just remember this item was actually began with the concern that board member Fennel had back in. What was it August or June of 23 that there was a lot of landmark alterations being done in historic districts without the benefit of getting permits. So it's been, this is kind of a continuation of that. I asked that all board members hold their questions and comments till the end of the presentation. At that time, the board's discussion may include clarifying questions to the staff as well as ideas to improve general awareness and promote historic preservation. The continuation or conclusion of this study session will really be the only motion. It'll be the only possible motion or action that will take today. We're not going to be taking any other kind of action or recommendation. This is just basically a study session to give you some background. But I will ask at the end for a motion to either continue to discuss this item or to conclude it. One of the other if depending on which way the board wants wants to go. So with that and with Miss Murray also, I've tried, I've worked with her on the PowerPoint. I've tried to be as accurate as possible. But if there is some inaccuracies, maybe at the end of the presentation, you can bring up our inaccuracies or clarifications of anything. If I get something a little wrong, that way we can just get through the presentation and get into the actual discussion period. Okay. Okay, so this this was the the front porch that the owner decided that it had been remodeled as we'll call it. That's not original. It had been done like that and they decided they wanted to restore it back to its as close as they could to its original design. So in doing that, there's a process that this owner went through and we're going to kind of go through that process. So the first thing that they did was a concept review. And actually, before the consultation with cultural hair, that should probably say consultation with cultural heritage board staff for concept review because they're kind of the first place that they come to with their ideas and their thoughts. And, and I'm thinking it's pretty much Miss Murray that they meet with on that initial. I'll meet with planning staff different plans on the counter and get that direction. And so, if it's a major item, a lot of times staff will ask them to have a neighborhood meeting. So that happens a lot with residential, you know, or an item this small just but it is oftentimes recommended they talk to their neighbors and have a neighborhood, but meeting. They have to fill out a universal planning application and associated forms. And I have made some copies. So this is the, the zoning code for concept review. And you know, we're not going to review these or you don't have to get informed at this. This is kind of just take home stuff. This is a concept review application kind of checklist. We're all included as attachments to you. Yeah. Why don't you go ahead with your presentation and I'll go ahead and hand those out. Was there another one of those? Did you get one more? Yeah. Okay. I know it is. I have it on the computer. Do you want me to hand out the rest of these now or? No, no, no, I've got kind of a. So you can see that concept review kind of checklist. The items that, you know, somebody that wants to do a concept review needs to be prepared to provide. And, but one thing that I'll stress and you can go ahead and correct me if I'm wrong right now in this. When it comes to the narrative, when it comes to that concept, a lot of it can be generated by them. They can do their own kind of drawings, their own pictures, their own, without actually getting into hiring an architect at this point or to, you know, spin that kind of or get a historical analysis or anything like that. It's, but they do have to fill out an application. They do have to fill out paperwork because the city needs a way to be able to track the project and put the project into the system. There you go. The universal planning application and it's associated forms is what they would get also at this time. And then for concept review. There's also the city has it has a requirement for public notice. So there is a cost to the city for sending out public notice. And there is a minor cost to the homeowner because they also have to post on their property for the concept review. So this is just a quick copy from a page of the current fee schedule. I think it's current. But I think I think Ms. Murray made some updates to it. It changed since the first time that I, but you can see concept review is no charge. A minor landmark alteration permit. Actually that's it's different now it's $555. I think and the major, I think that dollar amount might be correct. I think it's $441. So that's for if the homeowner is the applicant. And that's something else I want to the reason I kind of brought this up is it's broken down into homeowners applicant versus non homeowner. And so probably later on in our next meeting and discussion that's probably something I'm going to bring up is that those definitions. How well those definitions really apply a homeowner versus versus maybe residential versus commercial or some other form of defining but anyway. So, so really with concept review, you're looking at no charge for concept review. There's no charge for public hearing for coming before the cultural heritage board with concept review. And it's probably like a nominal $50 cost for doing the public. Sign of public notice sign it on your property. No, that's what it's much. That's way more expensive. Well, for concept is cheaper though, right. You know, so it depends on the size of the property and most residential lots will only require six or 12 foot square foot sign. And those can be printed at kinkos and posted. So it can be low or it does not have to be not doesn't have to be done by a company. And because you're going to have to do a more formal one for a landmark it's best to do as cheap as possible. Okay, so that moves us then on to. Okay, so the applicant has gone through concept review has gotten feedback from cultural heritage board staff has gotten feedback from the cultural heritage board themselves on the concept. And now they've come back for applying for a major landmark alteration permit. Okay, so and you got handed out, I believe your landmark alteration checklist. Okay. So the checklist that staff and the applicant can go down and and check off what's going to be required to apply for a major landmark alteration. Okay, so now we get into the cost will look at the cost again so we had our our first sign $50 we've got now a major landmark alteration permit. We have a $1041 for owner occupied, and we have a public hearing fee of $555. And now you got to make the nice big fancy sign. And if you're on a just a single facing a lot is just one sign if you're on a corner a lot you get to make two signs. I actually call the sign companies and this was the average that I got for and that's though includes them coming out and placing the signs for for you. And that cost. Did you give them a meaning sign size. They had, when I called they knew what the city sign size was required I just asked them for, you know, the sign companies are on board with that. So application documents. You know, as well as the application everything that's been submitted now that they're going to need to provide color photographs of the site. I'm going to just kind of go through this quickly. We need to do a narrative of what the project is. And in most cases what we've seen, especially if it's an involved restoration of a residence. Usually an architectural history service of one form or another is hired to perform that and it's, it's, it's usually to, in this case was to properly document what was there originally. So what we were putting back was going back to what was there originally the. It isn't required that you hire professional do it the homeowner can actually do this task. And actually in the old language with the cultural heritage board, the cultural heritage board themselves could do that can do this task. At some point, the board needs to hear some kind of a historical concept perspective narrative of what was there, what's existing and what's going to change. Neighborhood context map. That's pretty easy. It's just basically, you know, this is where this particular house sits on Pine Street. Project evaluation. Now the project evaluation is tough because if you're going to go over $200,000, then you're going to have to also do upgrade any improvements such as, you know, sidewalks or wheelchair ramps or street lights. Basically anything and in a lot of our old neighborhoods have a lot of that stuff that needs to be and it's pretty easy to get up to $200,000. I didn't put it in this program, but I did notice that this particular example we're using, they have a new sidewalk in front and I have a feeling they hit the $200,000 mark and were probably required to replace their sidewalk in front as well. But I didn't put any of those costs in this program. Did it need replacing? Did it need replacing? Pretty much all the sidewalks in our neighborhood. The only ones that don't need to be replaced have been recently replaced. Okay, so then there's the stormwater worksheet. We won't spend any time really with that, but it's another requirement that has to be completed. Of course, architectural detailed plan sheet. So with concept, they really could have come in with just hand drawn drawings of what the new front porch was going to look at. But when you get to a major landmark, now we want to see, you know, drawings and really the cost of this, if it's approved, is just gets absorbed into the building permit fees because they need these drawings for the building permit anyway. The only time this cost is really lost is if it doesn't get approved and then they can't get a building permit and then they just spent that money for those fees. Existing and proposed elevations and materials and color detail sheet. Color is probably not really required, but we always do like to see what what colors that they're going to do, but we can't really rule on on the colors. But we like to see like things like light fixtures, windows designs and that type of stuff. And again, these are things that the homeowner if they're aware and they go through concept review can probably put that sheet together themselves without having to hire a professional site plan. Okay, so those are the kind of the major elements as well as what you saw in the landmark alteration checklist sheet. So now we kind of get the cost goes up again a little bit. So now we get historical resource evaluation. Oh, you're lucky that that's only a thousand dollars. I'm being cheap. Yeah, you are being really cheap. It was only a porch. So yeah, it's. Yeah, but the whole house has to be a value. Yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, I'm being cheap, but it still gets expensive the architectural fees and the site plan and elevations $2,000. Okay. That's really cheap. Okay, and then the time for the date of application for this project was 925 2020. The date of approval of the resolution was 421 2021 so seven months, which is probably pretty typical right now I think for major landmark alterations, but I will say this project is when we were really having trouble getting the forms and it got bumped I think two times because we didn't have forms. And so that prolonged, it could have been probably closer to six months rather than seven months. That's that's the importance of everybody showing up. So that took during COVID and I had a really good planner for my project, which is non conforming for a historic district. And it took six months. Yeah, yeah. Our time frames that are quoted, say six months for a major landmark alteration. So, okay. So cultures board public caring review process. So, I'm not sure if everybody have, have you got to see a major landmark alteration process yet have we since you guys have been board members have we had a major landmark alteration. I mean, we had we had the. That's not major. Yeah, we haven't got there on that one yet. So, so basically the process is the staff makes presentation. The applicant has opportunity to make presentation. Oftentimes there's an architect. There's a license to historical planner that is either in the audience or oftentimes makes the presentation as well. There's a public comment period. There's board discussion conditioning and then action, and then resolution, resolution approval or denial and that this particular project was approved signed by. And so this kind of gets us into, you know, as board members. So, you know, how, how are we going to, how do we determine whether this should be approved or, or denied. And so some of the documents and the criteria that we use our number one, the processing review procedure for owners of the stored properties. That's a guide for us and it should also be a guide for the applicant. The general plan. So the general, the general plan basically a general plan sets goals, regard to historic preservation and the role of the cultural heritage for the zoning code. And so it implements those goals and objectives of the general plan through zoning development standards within the historic districts, known as H overlay. So you'll hear that every area, every property has a general zoning, but when it's in a historic neighborhood. And that H overlay then adds additional zoning standards. I'll just jump through this real quick. You're probably all aware if you don't have a copy of this, you should have a hard copy of this document. Processing review procedure for owners with historic properties. I will say it's ready for an update. It's pretty darn good, but it does. It's been a while. One thing I would recommend that when it goes into it would be if there's associated costs. It's the cost situation shouldn't be a surprise at the end that should be known right right up front, if that's possible. Application costs, the general plan. So we're in the process of getting a new general plan. There is a section of the general plan for historic preservation. And we should be aware of that because again, that's what sets the goals. The zoning codes and there's a lot of zoning code sections. But the zoning code sections, you know, identify the design guidelines for combining districts. When I say combining district, that means a district that has a regular zoning designation and an H overlay. They call that a combining district. So we should be aware of the zoning codes design guidelines. There's another document that the city has that is design guidelines for historic properties and districts. And there's some more zoning code information. And the reason I'm bringing these things up is when we make decisions, we need to make decisions based on principles and that have been established, you know, by the city, rather than maybe our own personal opinions. Okay. And, and that's that's why it's tough because we come onto the board as just general representatives of the public. And there may not have background in this. So we've got to take the time as a board to educate ourselves and have this information available and do our research so that when we do look at a project we do give the applicant to justice and making our determinations. So in this project, the city planner that was in charge, these were some of the historic analysis observations that they came up with. And we would be as a board member, we would be looking at these items and we would basically be either agreeing or disagreeing with them. We agree with them. That's great if we disagree with them if you have enough disagreements that could lead you to not want to approve the project. But your disagreement should be based on on principles and not just based on well I really don't like the way that looks, you know, There shouldn't be there always, if there was an opinion we could have an AI just do the job. So, so there's it. Okay. Sequa generally residential projects and correct me if I'm wrong you can speak up Susie but residential projects usually are in compliance with Sequa. They, they don't have enough of an impact. But if we get into major landmark all trades for commercial then Sequa really can play a role. Yeah, the only thing I'll add is in that last measure 15331, we are not qualified experts staff, meaning we isn't staff. And so we and it's that finding that are that statement though and this is not yeah this is not a finding or a review criteria this is Sequa that in order to to find it in compliance with Sequa based on this find this this section of Sequa. We need to have that report. Yeah. Okay, some smaller projects we we through the process have learned and become comfortable making that determination, but if it's a, you know, it's a new home or a significant remodel on a single family residential. That's when that's going to trigger the report. Okay, so generally, if we have a project, we have a project coming before us, and the staff planner is generally, if it's coming before us is going to recommend for approval. Okay. And they're going to recommend for approval based on the review criteria that was established to the review criteria came from the applicant came from the historian came from, you know, various sources that are going to be presented to you. And then as board members, it's our responsibility then to take that information and lay that over what we know zoning code says what we know Secretary the Interior says what we, you know, what we know on those things and say does it align, or is it are they, or does it not align. And I just give a quick example, commercial wise, we're probably going to see projects that are going to want to go more than 35 feet. Well, our standards in most historic say 35 feet. So there's going to be reason justification review criteria to justify why it could go over and it's going to be up to us to then determine whether Kertos village. This is an example of that, you know, so anyway. Okay, so then the final ending thing will be someone on the board will make a motion to approve the resolution. And as board members we should have read that resolution very carefully prior to the meeting, because that resolution has the review criteria written into it. And if it's missing that review criteria, if it got left out, then that's something or if you disagree with the review criteria. These are the things are going to lead you to either voting for the resolution or deny the resolution. Okay, so completed project. That's what it looked like before. That's what it looked like afterwards. Did you approve that? So anyway, yeah, so it very nicely done. It's it's just a tribute. The rent the copper rain chains that they did. It's just yeah, it's if you saw that building before and after it's it's a real, real benefit. Okay, so what elements culture guide to decision approval again review criteria and I think I've beat that bush enough. But these are just, you know, areas of Secretary the terriers Probably the biggest challenge we will have as a board with the Secretary of Terriers is when the Secretary Terriers suggests that an addition should be of a dissimilar material so that it denotes itself differently from the main structure. And there's a lot of people who do an addition of the house. They don't want their addition to look different. They want to use the same sighting and the same. Anyway, but we'll we'll cross those bridges with as they come. Okay, so in the end. Major landmark alteration costs for this and this is probably light to be honest with you is 5046. Now, remember, they still haven't got a permit yet. They still haven't got the permit costs and those things. This is just for so if this project is denied. Other than the site plan and those things that may be used for but that's that could be just, you know, a wash. So this this is just for major landmark alteration for residential. Okay, general plan says consider removing or simplifying obstacles for owners of historic properties to support preservation including guidelines for repurposing facilities and concurrent review of entitlement and building permit applications. This is out of the draft general plan. Okay. And so, I'm kind of running with this to our board basically saying okay knowing what we know in getting a landmark alteration. Are there changes we can make that would be in alignment with this goal from the general plan. So some potential changes that I've thought of and this is just me personally is eliminate major and minor landmark alteration fee for residential landmarks and historic neighborhoods and eliminate the fee associated when appearing before the cultural heritage board. So that's about $1,600 in fees that they could save the applicant update the processing review procedures for owners of historic properties, give greater emphasis and perhaps make concept review a requirement. Okay, a concept review when you get into this. That's where that's where you can really save the people money if they come to the cultural heritage board with a crazy plan. After they've gone through the landmark alteration permit process and all those costs and then we can approve it. It would have been so much better if they would come at concept review, and we could have given them the bad news that concept review before they spent that money. Give the cultural heritage board authority to determine if the project should be permitted based on the direction given at concept review. So this Murray has talked about this at concept review if there's a way that we can turn the project over to maybe the zoning administrator with our comments. And if they're willing to do what our comments were concept review to move forward with project. Our cultural heritage board members to determine based on project scope the need for and the type of historic documentation that should accompany the major landmark alteration. So if they don't really need a historic review. You know, and have to pay that cost $1 to $2,000. Let's let's tell them that concept review that they don't need to have that if they'll do their own research. You know, come to us with their own, if it's a big project or something or or significant building, we might want that but allow that. Okay. How we can make the process easier and reduce costs to homeowners, promote greater communication between historic neighborhoods property owners and cultural heritage board. And utilize funding resources like community advisory board grants to promote historic preservation. I go to a board chairs. Mayor's lunch. Like every other month and talk to the community advisory board chair. And he said, there is grant money. Available that we came up with a plan to try to promote historic preservation or, or, and I know board member Fennel was talking a lot about really trying to get the information out there. And finally, from talking to my neighbors and things, I think, I think they know what's involved and I think that's, that's why they're doing it on Sunday. Because they, they know they've been told how expensive it's going to be and how long it's going to take and make it denied. But anyway. And that's it. With that, I'd like to turn it over to miss Murray and let her if she has comments or clarifications. Or if you have also questions for, for this Murray. So I do, I have some, just some follow up notes. I took during the meeting. I want to say, first, that the, the neighborhood meeting is required for all landmark for entitlements of what landmark alteration is an entitlement that require a public hearing. A major landmark alteration requires a public hearing. Therefore, it does require a neighborhood meeting. So the neighborhood meeting signs range from six feet, six square feet to 32 square feet, 32 square feet is on a property that is an acre, six square feet is on a property that 6000 square feet or less. And it kind of ranges. So it's 612 2432. And those signs vary in cost, but the beauty of that little six foot square or square foot sign, there's nothing that says that it has to be a sign company and that tax on a few hundred extra dollars. Or more, depending on the size of the sign, but generally speaking, I think the lots probably fall between that six and 20,000. So it's going to be a 24 square foot signs. They do as code is written now, they require that that sign for concept review and for and for their hearing. If it's a major, right, they have to have both of those. That I can, you know, I could get creative and say I can use the same sign from project descriptions and not changing and just do a face over on it. Just hold on to your sign. You know, I don't know. So the fair, the price can range from $50 if you're creative up to probably several hundred dollars, probably more than what Brian was talking about. The $400 was what they quoted for the landmark. Yeah. Concept plans. Yes, they can come in and so long as we can understand what they're proposing that we can use those plans to come to the board. We do. We do make sure that there is, you can, you can tell what they're doing. We've seen, we've seen plans come in on scratch paper and you know, we try to, we kind of require those to be gussied up a little bit. So, you know, it's kind of like you get out what you put in if you can't give us something what you want to do. I mean, I guess there's, you know, somebody could say, I'm just wanting to do an update to my home. Can I talk to the board? They don't even have to go on it. Go through staff for that. They can come and if they can do it quick enough, they can do it in three minutes. This is what I want to do. And I'm looking through your guidance. They don't need to be agendized for that. That's a board response, whether if it triggers a discussion, we would probably put it on an agenda later date. A long discussion. So that's done. I wanted to follow up. I did look at the conditions of approval for the sidewalk. It was a recommendation. It was in the conditions. It was recommended by staff, but it was not required. Okay. So, it's, well, I'm not, the reason I knew to look is because I know that that 200,000 triggers, it's a big trigger. It can trigger a lot of things, but it also has, we also have to help the nexus. We also, you know, requiring a streetlight or something like that. Those things get very expensive. So there, there are some limitations on what improvements, public improvements can be required. And our engineering staff, they're, they're, they're a group of reasonable people. Usually. So, they didn't require sidewalks on my project. Yeah. So, and I'm guessing you went over 200 and your shingles alone. Sorry. Um, I wanted to point out that the memo that was sent to the board for this meeting included links to secretary of the interior standards, the two zoning code sections that apply. For the age combining district in the age combining district, every preservation district is broken out with, you know, the features that the character defining features that the district is known for the years, the years of, what's the word I'm looking for. The historical significance. Yeah. Thank you. The period of significance for that, that particular preservation district. So there's, there's really a lot of good information in that age combining district that can help guide your direction because again, it's not your opinion. That's not, I've said it before and we all have opinions. I've had to recommend approval on projects that I did not like at all. Not necessarily in preservation districts, but that, that's happened. And it's when, when you can make those within this case to go through the review criteria. If you have something that's kind of iffy. It doesn't mean you can't recommend approval. It just means that that feeds your decision that that that guides your decision as a board. You come to a decision. You don't have to come to a consensus. Yeah, a quorum for people. If you have four people a simple form three people need to be able to come to one decision in order to make it pass or fail. And then. Oh, so chair music was talking about the, the historic report, and I'll say, you know, when we were talking about the sequel measures, they only need one measure to be found in compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act. Most homes are small structures. It's a minor change to an existing structure. We never have to even mention that measure that talks about the secretary of the interior standards. So if you have said, okay, if you want to do that, that facade change on the front, use this type of citing these types of windows and, you know, these are our recommendations. We don't have to get that, that report that is an expense and we just had the same discussion with staff today. Those technical studies get super expensive. We don't need them. Let's not ask for them. And so I think we're all supporting that for the small projects. So, and that's really a way to reduce review authority. We have a process right now in our zoning code. It's the reduced review authority and it was a way to get development moving in our development areas. Those are the areas that are along our arterial streets. College Avenue, Santa Rosa Avenue, Stony Point, well, not Stony Point, Dutton Meadow. So they're kind of all over the city. And those priority development areas, there's a lot of housing going up and the process that's been used for that is they've gone to concept a required concept design review before the design review board. With plans that were not done, but really gave a good idea of what was going to happen. The design review board weighs in with their comments. Okay. And then they go to the the zoning administrator. Now, if they don't, if they don't implement all the design review boards comments, it doesn't mean they don't get approved. It means those comments and those responses are considered by the zoning administrator and the zoning administrator makes the decision to approve or deny the zoning administrator. I've sat in that position. I've done that for those large projects. And I, you know, I depend very much so on the design review board and we have a process where one member of the design review board attends those meetings to help guide the zoning administrator when she or he is not feeling so confident, right? I'm not an architect. So a similar process is, yeah, what term is there? Yeah, what we could do here for homeowners of single family or duet units smaller, you know, maybe define it by the area like we do with design review at 10,000 square feet. So those are some suggestions. And I'm happy to answer any questions from the city's perspective. You can answer from the applicant's perspective being one. I guess my question would be if I'm getting a little wonder and I want to do something minor like the porch you're talking about. If I walk into the city, the staff there is going to tell me what my options are. Like I could go to the gorgeous board and present what I'd like to do without paying any money or doing anything like to start there. That's an option, right? And they let the folks that come in know that so people are educated about what their options are. Absolutely. If they have any doubt at the counter, they'll get a planner involved. We have a planner on duty every day. And we have several planners in the building. And when we're not in the building, we're usually available by teams. So I wish and I know it's not going to be possible, but the universal planning application form I wish for concept review. We had just a really simple form with a simple checklist. Rather than having to fill out or go to that universal. That would that turn that'll turn the away from the counter right there when you see when you see that document that and all the information because it's designed to do everything. And with concept review, hopefully they're sitting down with a good counter tech or planner that realizes, you know, you only need to check this box in this box in this box. Most of our submittals are now coming in online. So, yeah, that we don't really have the option to sit down and help. Yeah. And we are, we are open for my public appointments. Am I incorrect? I. Maybe that's just with public works, but they told me only. Contractors could submit online that owner builders had to. So that's a building. That's a building. Okay. And I won't answer that. I won't speak to that. That doesn't, it doesn't make sense. I'm almost sure we've gotten building permits from owner builder, but I'm not positive about that. I do know that the option right now is submit in person, submit electronically. Yeah. But I think if we can plan towards the worst case scenario of somebody who's never done any of this before. And as lost in the woods and looking for help and they, they stumble into the planning department and they take it from there. Yeah. Anything else? I was wondering if we're going to return to that homeowner versus non-homeowner fee schedule. Return to that. Yeah. Slide. Yeah, we can. I mean, yeah. No. But if a homeowner is looking at that, I think it potentially could be interpreted as if I hire a contractor, now my fee goes up by three times or whatever. Well, I can't remember exactly the numbers, but it looks significantly more expensive. Maybe. Is that true? Define owner versus non-owner. How would the planning staff determine if this is an owner application or a non-owner? If a contractor submits on behalf of a homeowner, they're going to get the homeowner fees. Okay. What it's intended for, the intent of that is really to capture those single-family residential or the residential units. I think even if somebody lives on a duke-like slot, if they live there, if it's an income property for them, then it's no longer, then because it's a business, right? Okay. So that's one of the higher fees. If it's your home, and yeah, if it's your home and you're doing it, that's when the fees are. Now, this is not the first time that this question has come up. And I think that next time we do our fee schedule update, which happens to be coming out January 1st, and maybe I didn't accept it. But we could do a probably a better job of clarifying where that break is. Ultimately, I'd love to, you know, once we get the direction from the board, your requests or suggestions. We may, we're at a really good time with a fee schedule revamping coming up next year that we may be able to incorporate some of these changes. I think it's, I think there's a very strong argument to eliminate the fees for homeowners. Whether it's going to get support or not. If the board wants, I mean, that's all we do that, but I will say this that in 2023. If we eliminated the fees associated with major minor and the cost of going for the cultural heritage board, which isn't up there. Oh, is it up there? Neighborhood meeting. Yeah. The city would have lost $0 because there were no applications in 2023. We didn't see any. They were done on Sundays. So there's, there's sometimes a situation where if you want to accomplish a goal, you know, the, the. Through the neighborhood outreaches that they knew there were no fees involved. I think you would get greater compliance. And, especially if they get red tag, do you know, then it costs you even more. Yeah. And at the same time. If there's no fees involved, it's not a huge loss for the city. It really isn't for residential. If all you targeted was residential. It really isn't much, much money loss and the goodwill. I think that it that that it would put out towards making it achieving that general plan goal of making it easier for people. Anyway, so I hear what you're saying. I think that there are two issues with the process and it's both money and time. So if, if the board would consider a similar process to the reviews, reduce review authority process where they're relinquishing control to the zoning administrator. That is something that is going to cut probably for, yeah, I'll say 3 to 6 months off the review process for the homeowner. So they can come in, they can be working on their project plans come in for concept. Still working on their project plans. And as soon as they hear a board member comments, make whatever minor revisions they need to and and submit their application. Yeah, they only I can't believe me. I love that idea. I'm just wondering for neighborhood noticing, you know, as long as we can make sure that we don't compromise. We have noticing requirements for concept for concept for minor design review and for major design review. It's identical. It's property owners and occupants within 600 feet of the site. Yeah, we send them out and we mail them. We do not leave them. We don't leave it up to them. And I don't see why the project that we saw that is is actually repairing damage to the historic building. Why that can't be approved over the counter with appropriate materials that we could list neighborhood, you know, district by district and leave off brick. You know, so it's appropriate to the house. The way it would have been done originally. And if we don't have photos. So I had a conversation with some coworkers and said, if I forget to mention the over the counter landmark cultivation text me. So thank you for bringing that up there. There is an option we don't have it right now to add. That would be a real good recommendation. The over the counter landmark alteration, we, you know, maybe there's a fee associated maybe there's not. There isn't over the counter design review process with a small fee. It's like $243, I think. You buy us to come to CHB for a concept. Yeah, they can. Windows are example of that. Windows are example of that, but windows are exempt. They're listed as exemptions in the in the landmark alteration permit process. So windows and doors designed to match the original. It is not replaced like for like. Okay, if you're in an older home, you in the 1920s, they didn't have vinyl windows. At least not that I'm aware of. And so if you have broken down vinyl windows and want to replace them with vinyl windows, you get to come to get to go through a landmark alteration process, depending on where the windows are located. If you propose to put in wood windows, you can get them over. You can get approval over the counter. That's a huge difference in pricing, but it's also a huge time savings and that that's what I that's where I say, you know, time savings. I would not. I personally would not be supportive of an over the counter design review for the front of a building that didn't go through concept design process and match identically what the board suggested. I would not be comfortable with that because it would put staff in an awkward situation. But they could take from concept review, it seems to me, and go directly and move on directly to permit in most cases. It doesn't count. No, no, no, there's a process that follows the concept review because there's no formal determination. There's no resolution with concept. So we change that though. No concept. It's it's not a it's not a decision making event. Okay, it's it's directed. But we are talking about the possibility of the comments that come from concept being able to just go to the Sony administrator. That is a public meeting that has a resolution. So that's yeah, it's a good it's that's we tried and true process right now. The language had to be developed to do that or somewhere in the zoning code or something. Yeah, it would be in the zoning code. But, you know, it's yeah, we've got the measures in the general plan that would support the change. It's just it's money at staff time. Yeah. If you didn't have to do a landmark operation to have all that staff time. Well, also, as there were disaster, you could move you could move forward faster and replace using the same process for disasters and don't go down that rabbit hole. Using the same process. Yeah, it's going to get it's going to be a process like that. You know, depending again is it one house. Because one house can have a disaster in 300 or in our case 3000. That's something that'll be coming back to us. You'll see that soon. Yeah. I also would really like to see us try to eliminate the historical survey for most homes and I mean, no one needs to know that, you know, girl Smith saved $2,300 in 1915 and went to Sears and rowbuck and bought a kid house. You know, I mean, that it doesn't need to be. No, I'm most like known as that house from here on out. You know, I mean, if you're a, if you are a, you know, in a, in a, in a district and you are a contributing home. Even, I mean, even if you're tiny. And there are lots of homes like that. Why do you need that you need it on a major architectural absolute or demolition. Yeah, yeah. Property and that historic district and everybody knows what they are. Right. We've seen some of those reports, you know, that have been down that have been kind of way over and above. Yes. So part of the concept review process, you can direct them on what's necessary so that when they go to their, their consultant. They can say, this is what I've been told to get and not to worry about this. You know, that, that's, that's one of the benefits of concept and we really do try to push concept. So the, yeah, we, we do. And my research and doing putting this program together just to it's glaring to me that concept concept review is, is our real. And I think is if I have neighbors that come to me and ask about things, that's going to be the number one thing that I tell them as I say, really need to come in. Yeah, talk to the planning staff and plan to do a concept review. And the long run those same time. And the other key is tell them to work with the same plan that they started. Other, other thoughts. If I could just add one more comment to this fee schedule. I will say that we know that rental units exist in these districts to charge them of land on Lord $1,600 for something that's not charged at all for concept review. And we're in the broader discussion here talking about why people aren't coming in front of the board. And it seems a little bit dissuasive for them to come in and get a discussion for almost $2,000. That seems a little tough to me. So potentially eliminate concept review costs across the board. Or how about changing the type of property, not who owns it, not what it's used for. So, so along with similar to that, so if it's a single, if it's a, you know, a lot that's less than X number or a house that structure that's less than X square feet or I think if you've got a 10 unit apartment building and you live in one of the units, I don't think it's the same thing. No, you wouldn't get it wouldn't apply. It wouldn't apply. It wouldn't apply. No, this is intended for single feeling residential and then we have that missing middle housing that we find in a lot of historic houses where they were big and they were modified into, you know, one, two, three, four units and they are all over. Right. I was, I was amazed when I went on a tour with some coworkers one day and how many and where they are, you know, and all the districts. It's pretty cool. Yeah. But, but those, those would get that, in my opinion, that free concept review was intended for all of those structures that were maybe originally constructed in single family. Keep in mind, and we haven't, some of you haven't been through the process yet, but if it's a large commercial structure, we'll do concept review with the design review board jointly and it's usually a pretty big deal. So, you know, it's kind of a, it's a big deal for staff and a big, so I could see maybe a project of that scale having a fee and again, looking at just a smaller scale residential, you know, trying to eliminate those fees. Because there's also situations where family members live in houses that don't necessarily own them, etc. etc. Really. I think the owner is applicant, non-owners, it's very confusing. I got no self over here. I'm hearing you. I find this stormwater determination worksheet odd as well. So, it's really easy to get right through that. It is. Hit the first no. And you're done. And then you like skip forward. It just seems I can't, it's hard to picture the 10,000 square foot residential unit that would be clicking yet. Oh, they're there. Oh, yeah. We argue about. I'm talking like single family. They're there. They're there. Oh, yeah. And yes. No, not down in, not in, not in the preservation districts like for bank gardens and what have you, but there are some, I'd say over in McDonald's district. They've got some large lots. Oh, and there's some on these streets. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I have to, I mean, my strategy was to give the overwhelm effect of all this paper that when you walk in. And, and, you know, and you just start getting hit with. Especially if it's a little thing you're doing, you know, I mean, if it's a major something. Yeah. So again, these are things just to kind of, kind of soak in and. And decide whether we want to, at the end of this discussion, move forward with this with some recommendations and the recommendations can come in a form of recommendations to staff. And come and actually could come in a form of resolution to the city council, which I believe would probably be required if we wanted to eliminate fees. Mm hmm. A reduced recommendation from the cultural heritage for, but we're not looking for that those decisions today today is just for you to just take this in. Take the information in and then come back. If you choose, I don't want this to be my deal. I want this to be the board deal. So how does that happen? Do we have another special meeting or do we do it at a regular meeting that we may be another right? We'd agendize had another regular meeting. And that would be for coming up with our list of recommendations. Hopefully. Yeah, let's get there. I mean, the only thing about the historic. Column, those reports. Is that the city hasn't had the funds to hire someone to get that information and a lot of districts. And so that that's why that is there now. The requirement for the report as it gives the information that is needed for. For the historic district. It tells us it tells us what it has a qualified professional. Right. We look to that report staff looks to that report for a qualified professional and say this, these changes are not going to have a negative impact. On the historic value of this home character defining elements of this home or the structure or. It's neighbors or the district. Yeah, so that's that's why because we're not tough to because some of them are better qualified than others to make those reports. That's true. But some that I throw out. It's just it's generally it's generally just a justification report for something that the owner wants to do. I mean, it's usually written in favor of doing what you want to do. And to me, the most important of those reports is when you're talking about demolition or a large portion of the structure being eliminated. To really know what it's going to mean to not have that anymore to not have that structure anymore. What was the significance of that structure. That's probably to me the the extreme end of it. For this case, did they need to spend the money for probably probably not because that's there's thousands of those little houses from below. So something significantly happened there and Lincoln was shot on the front porch or something, you know, staff isn't qualified to make that right like the comment on the review criteria there. So in absence of the report, we would depend on the comments made by the staff, the cultural heritage board during concept reviews saying it doesn't need this because we are making this determination. And we can do that. And you can do that. And why are it where it needs it. Yes, that concept. Yeah. Okay, so but they've got to get to concept for you to do that. Yeah, there'll be a requirement that all projects come to unless they can be approved on the counter, come to concept. No, we can make the recommendation for it. And it should say in some cases, yes, in that review reduced review authority scenario, they're required to go to concept. The qualified experts have to look at it have to have eyes on and comment on it in order for it to go to the design the project to go to the design review board. I'm sorry to the zoning administrator likewise here what would that look like somebody wants to do a facade update change addition whatever they come they require a major landmark alteration permit and alternative that is reduced review authority where they come to the cultural heritage board with their plans now that those are plans that are pretty well set. So you can see what it's going to look like you know what materials are proposing, and they then the board directs. Okay, the board the board it has no decision authority there they just are giving guidance they're giving direction. Then those comments get bundled together with whatever the final submittal is, and it gets reviewed by staff and it goes to the zoning administrator and the zoning administrator says, well, okay I understand that the board wanted this type of window but this type of window really looks very similar. I and it saves them, you know, $10,000 I mean we've seen that kind of difference on windows right, and they and the zoning administrator makes the decision to approve it, based on the windows proposed not the ones that the cultural heritage board suggested that they are directed that they use so so I again it's it's relinquishing control at the same time, a board member from the cultural heritage board can be invited to those meetings, right and they can help advise, but they do not have any decision making capacity at that that is the zoning administrators, the rezoning administrators the review authority in that scenario. And I again you can watch watch some of the videos from the reduced review authority, you know we we twist and tangle and try to get to yes but I didn't always take I didn't always implement what the design review board was asking for that member, because it was in an area of the building that it's brand new building you know whatever the reason, regardless of the reason, if you know you're there and yeah, something can happen that you may not agree with. But it's one structure and these are a lot of small structures most of the time they're going through a process like this, it is an improvement, it may not be the best improvement, but it's an improvement. So I had a question. It seemed to me like a number of years ago that we were approving, instead of having it be an all wood window on the front of homes that we were allowing was a fiberglass composite wood that we were allowing clad would I mean it was a fiberglass fiberglass clad and aluminum clad I think we're both we were that we were allowing that like that would be something that I would be open for or we approve those over the counter now because of the precedent set by the cultural heritage board. Okay, yeah, we will decide that size of the window doesn't change the size material. Try to try to mimic the lights that were original. Yeah, the configuration location size and material. We can prove those over the counter. Any other questions, comments. Okay, so at this point. I'm basically looking for a motion as to if the board would like to continue this item for the purpose of coming back with recommendations for changes. The process just has a broad, you know, the whole process. So what would mean at our next session. And what I would probably do is work with Miss Murray is probably come up with some draft recommendations for the board consider but it would also be an opportunity for you to bring to the board. For us to consider and then potentially at the end of that meeting actually take some action now whether that action will be followed through or not. You know, in time, I mean nothing, nothing moves. But, but, you know, for the sake of not being timely follow through doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't take action anyway. I mean it's so anyway, or we may want to take no action it again. It's, it's, it's, and I would hope that when we get to that point we have a full board because it would be nice to to really have everybody's opinion and everybody's. I would like to make a motion that we continue this item to a date and certain and and that we in 24 in 2024 and that we, you know, consider all options. Propose some options. Take a vote. So that was a motion by board member final seconded by vice chair copy. I was supposed to say that wasn't I thank you. I had a break from eating so I'm all over the place. Okay, so the vote board member party party board member fennel. Hi. For number Marcell. Vice chair Garrett. Hi. Our music. Hi. So that passes with five eyes and two absences. Okay. Okay. And with no other, I'll close. Oh. And I'll open public comment. This item saying no members here or the public public comment. But I was texting. We can read it out for the meeting. With no other items on the agenda. I'll call the meeting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, staff.