 Right good evening welcome to the public hearing on h610 a bill pertaining to domestic violence and firearms My name is representative Maxine grad. I am the chair of the committee, and I am joined by members of the house Judiciary Committee This hearing is schedules who run until 7 p.m. And will end at 7 p.m. Sharp The purpose of the hearing is to get public input on h610 We are not considering other house bills or Senate bills at this time. I will now review the rules of the hearing I First call your attention to the rules of the chamber as established by joint house and Senate rule 26 The text has been posted by the sign-up sheets Tonight is a public hearing. It is not a sporting event or performance No loud noises voices clapping booing or otherwise signaling your support or opposition for a member of the public's testimony This is the people's house where all viewpoints are welcome and will be received in a civil and respectful way Each witness has two minutes There will be a warning light at 30 seconds when the time sounds that your time is up Please quickly finish your sentence if you do not finish in the allotted time. You'll be asked to stop If the rules are not obeyed I will call the chamber to order if order is not maintained The sergeant at arms and capital police will take necessary steps to restore order Please note that any such distractions will result in the delay of witness testimony Vice chairman Burt it will call the names of each person testifying and the following two witnesses We ask that you come to the front of the chamber when your name is called So you can testify in a timely matter and we do have seats Up here for witnesses if you are not in the chamber But listening in a different room, please make sure to come in when your name is called. I Thank you for your presence and participation We will toss a coin to see which side testifies first the committee has decided that heads is against H 16 and tails is in favor of H H 6 10 and tails is in favor of H 6 10 Heads So our first witness who is signed up against H 6 10 Welcome everyone we're gonna start I'll start out by calling a couple names if The first person called can come down and sit in the witness chair at the end of the table and the second name that I call if they could come down and sit in either the bench or one of the chairs down here That would be great and it'll help things Move a little quicker and you know hopefully flow a little better, but anyway, we're gonna start with And I hope I don't butcher too many names tonight, but we're gonna start with Rodney a chire I think it is we'll sit in the witness chair and if Ben Hewitt could also come down As far as experts the district committee called on draft in 6h 10 I did not see a single father that has gone through the Incline family court system Testifies an expert which I am have to come into Montpelier for over 20 years spending hundreds of hours here handing out Hundreds of letters trying to get someone here to help her do domestic violence But not treating fathers as a doormat a money bag to seal from as an equal instead of a second-class parents I've come to conclusion at that time. I can count on my only hand The ones who care and the rest of not give a rat's ass I can fully understand why some fathers are reactive instead of proactive as I have been for a very long time You poke any in them long enough. It will bite you And so to keep hearing about domestic violence coming from under this gold zone over the years I've been coming here and my eyes is total bullshit It's about time for Montpelier to get some common sense and address the issue I've brought forth not only addressing domestic violence It will address the suicide issue seeing there was a young man who could not deal with his children being taken away By the incline family court system here in Vermont and in his life Anyone can accuse and another in anger or for a wrench and for life The accuser's ruin hunting is a big part of many fathers lives here and that we taken away when a mother of a child makes false accusations robbing the child of Hours with a father in memories that will not be made breaking that bond between a father and his child I have had to happen to me and they were shown to be false and under this bill the memories I've made and join your shooting sports with my sons never would have happened It's it what you want to ruin young Vermont's life by patching 8 6 10 8 6 10 will only affect law Biden's citizens at anyone with a thimble full of common sense knows that speaking of criminals a man beat his wife Half the death of baseball bat a man killed his wife with meat cleaver here in Vermont Are you gonna address right bills to address meat cleavers and baseball bats or just attack guns? After he didn't 8 6 10 and seeing there were emails sent between house the issue committee members and so-called experts to see if it was okay Thank you if let's see where are we with Roger Ben Hewitt. Can you sit? Jump into the witness chair and Roger stoddard come down and sit in one of the chairs. Thank you All right. Thank you so much for inviting me to take testimony tonight. I really appreciate your attention I'm a lifelong Vermont. I was born and raised in Vermont. I'm a gun owner and a hunter I have two sons who are hunters between the three of us. We own 11 firearms and our avid shooters And to be honest, I am wary and very skeptical of additional firearm legislation And I believe that most so-called gun control measures are at best feel-good band-aids on gaping societal wounds But I want to tell you a short story that has compelled me to be here today On the evening of January 3rd one of my son's best friends went into his bedroom Loaded his 30-06 and took his life That morning he had filled the tank of his truck with gas Earlier that afternoon he had texted his mother asking her to buy him a new toothbrush By all accounts and indications his suicide was an impulsive decision Let me be clear. There is no Common sense gun legislation or control gun control measure that I could imagine supporting that would have saved my son's friend's life He owned his firearm legally. He had the right to own it and the sad fact is he had the right to take his life But what his death has illuminated for me is the degree to which impulse can play a role in tragic irreversible decisions that the overwhelming majority of us cannot imagine making Like my many gun-owning friends I do not want to live in a society where every possibility for harm has been legislated away I do not want to live in a society where emotionally stable law abiding citizens are denied access to the tools of their choosing Despite this I support h610. I support it because I have seen firsthand the tragic results of an Irreversible decision and I support it because I believe the victims of domestic violence have rights to Their rights trump those of the perpetrators of the violence against them. Thank you you Roger Stoddard In the witness chair and I think it's Berset. Is it Berset Matheson come down Hello, my name is Roger Stoddard and I'm from Morgan Vermont. I'm also a lifelong Vermonner Morgan select board just voted to adopt this second amendment sanctuary statement and I'd ask you to please stop Ask yourselves. Why would a town make such an unusual decision? Well, I was at the meeting and there was all kinds of discussion about how Vermont's gun rights are being attacked by multiple firearm related bills down here in Montpelier and For some strange reason these bills seem to line up almost exactly without a state gun control groups main objectives So I drove down here to express my opposition to h610 and then the other bills restricting our current freedoms As a man who's been through some contentious custody battles child custody battles I've seen firsthand the gender discrimination at work in our Vermont court system Every day. We're deeper into a new system of being guilty until proven innocent. It's very hard to be proven innocent sometimes H610 goes farther down this dangerous road Does anybody that's ever been through a difficult divorce or a child custody battle really think that this wouldn't be used Against a spouse or significant other We're already sadly lacking in due process if for some sad reason this bill were to survive I'd like to offer the following suggestions Please include a real punishment for false accusers jail time victim compensation legal fees, etc But even then there's things that can't be restored like a person's first impression on the judge that might be ruling on their child custody case Many lawyers would love to put the opposition opposition into a weaker position With a very low threshold for proof in no due process think how tempting that would be I'm also against the the nicks delay portion of the bill That was supposed to be an instant system and that allowed a lot of people to support the bill that wouldn't have otherwise Thank you. Okay. Is it Bridget? Is it Bridget? Matt Matheson and if Bob Reedy can come down Good evening. My name is Bridget Bargit Matisse and Bozak. I live in Burlington For purposes of this evening. I'm a member of the board of steps to end domestic violence. I Appeared before you in very strong and urgent support of H610 You will hear this evening from a number of my colleagues including our interim director on the public policy argument in support of this bill I Come in a very personal Role I have seen domestic violence up close and very personal I am a child of a family of domestic violence and I am a survivor I have seen and I have felt the red hot rage of The moment of violence. I have seen and I have felt the terror of those violent hours They are fraught I have seen and I have felt the destruction of family life Perpetrators of domestic violence Want to hurt? Simple as that they want to destroy and in too many cases They destroy and Take the life of those closest to them and that is the family and the children H610 would take away that immediate access to a firearm during times of that extreme risk Those times when innocent children are the most vulnerable Ugly bruises can eventually fade Bones that are broken will mend But a firearm will kill Thank you Peggy O'Neill come down My name is Bob. Ready. I live in Warren the proposed H610 is probably one of the worst bills that I have Ever read or had the pleasure of reading When it comes to due process individual rights property rights and civil liberties They don't exist for an individual according to this So when you turn around we can take them we can throw around throw out six article 16 throw out the second amendment Throughout the fifth we probably include the ninth. This is horrible Horrible what about constitutional rights? Where does it say in the Vermont Constitution that you have the authority or the power To deny those rights you go to chapter 2 legislative powers and find out it doesn't exist You don't have the right The Constitution is a Constitution. You want to change it. There's a process to do so up until that point in time You will abide by it To those Vermont legislators who honor their oath and support and defend the Constitution of the state of Vermont and the United States Thank you. We applaud your effort for those that do not year after year. We come down here nobody listens None I've lost count of the number of times I've had to come down here remind you of your constitutional duties and obligations So it's either ignorance or defiance of the Constitution or a combination of both. I think it's a combination of both You believe the Constitution gets in your way The Constitution was never meant to bind the American people It was designed exactly for this purpose to shackle and restrain overzealous politicians The Constitution is the guide that will not be abandoned If you can't abide by the Constitution you violated your oath Thank you Peggy O'Neill in the witness chair and Phil McKay come down Good evening. My name is Peggy O'Neill. I'm the executive director of wisely upper Valley We serve victims of domestic and sexual violence in northern Windsor County I want to share a story about domestic violence a homicide that occurred in our community several years ago The homicide took the life of a beautiful young 20-year-old woman who was born and raised in Windsor County She was mom to a two-year-old and she worked in the local hospital She had big dreams and a lifetime of promise ahead of her Her life was cut tragically short early one morning when she was shot and killed by her boyfriend He had previously threatened her with a firearm They had just separated and we know leaving a relationship is a dangerous time for victims That morning hopes and dreams disappeared and this tragedy rippled up beyond one family into our entire community Relief from abuse orders provide one of the most important avenues of protection for victims Over 25 years ago another young woman living in a different state Chose to leave a committed but abusive relationship Her partner slept with a loaded gun under the pillow not for protection But to induce fear and maintain control When he threatened to kill her after she left the relationship her support system and Gaining an emergency order of protection lain in the night that included removal of guns from his possession Provided her with life-saving safety Well, we'll never know if removing his com guns kept it from being killed or injured What I keep thinking about over and over these last 25 plus years and in this work for nearly 17 years is That if his guns had not been removed that night I might not be here with you tonight to ask for your support this young woman was me The connection between firearms and the risk of death for domestic violence victims is well documented Tonight, I'm here to tell you that it's also very much a reality. I urge your support Phil McKay on the witness seat and I think it's avaloid landing come down The Bill of Rights our rights given to you by God and cannot be taken away Hopefully we can agree on that and h610 violates the second fourth and fifth amendments h610 would be taking the rights of the people to keep and bear arms by Unreasonably searching and seizing property without due process The declaration of independent states that life liberty and the pursuit and of happiness Property are also on any unalienable rights. It seems recently in the United States There has been a lot of legislation introduced or passed infringing on those rights with laws like these You're making it more difficult for me to defend my life my family my property and therefore violating my God-given rights If my family thinks a semi-auto with the magazine holding more rounds than your arbitrary number of rounds is what they think They need to help them defend themselves and you ban and restrict these things you are infringing on their rights in Closing I know a lot of people are either at work or home with their families and would agree with me We would like you to stand by your oaths and defend the constitutional rights of the American people We are tired of tyrannical unconstitutional legislation like this and That are taking away our rights slowly This isn't a violent state if you fear for your life that someone's gonna hurt you buy a gun learn to use it Protect yourself. It's your right. Thank you very much Avaloy landing in the witness seat and if Tabitha Armstrong can come down Good evening. My name is Avaloy landing and I'm the director of news story center in Rutland We serve victims of domestic and sexual violence in Rutland County in 2019 we served 820 people in our community We see firsthand the way that firearms are used to coerce and control victims of domestic violence and The grave risk that firearms in the hands of an abuser pose to victims and to our entire community Even when a weapon is not discharged abusers often use the mere presence of a gun to coerce Threaten and terrorize their victims inflicting enormous psychological damage Annie tried to leave her abusive partner for years She lived with the knowledge that the next time she attempted to leave might be just be the time He would use one of his many firearms to follow through on his threat to kill her He rarely had to brandish a weapon. The threat was enough to keep Annie from leaving Finally the beatings name callings and threats were not enough Annie's abuser held a gun to her head and explained in great detail what her children would see after he pulled the trigger He made sure Annie understood that if she attempted to leave He could put a bullet in her before she ever knew he was anywhere near It took Annie another five months of living in terror before she left and sought an order of protection Annie represents Countless women in similar positions who are living in constant fear of an abuser with a firearm Every week our advocates support survivors as they apply for orders of protection We literally are in the courtroom. We see the bravery and courage it takes for survivors to take this step Often at significant risk When survivors take this step, it's crucial that firearms are addressed as part of this process It is our responsibility to make sure that the system we have designed to create safety for survivors Does just that? Thank you Tabitha if you could take the witness chair and Skyler Wolf come down I am here today to speak against age 610 two minutes isn't enough time to break down the numbers But between 1994 and 2017 there were 148 homicides involving domestic violence of those cases 82 are said to have involved a firearm once you remove the 34 deaths that were abuser suicides or an officer shooting an abuser That leaves 48 deaths in a 23 year period during that same time There were 48 domestic violence deaths caused by stabbing strangulation and blunt force trauma So are we to believe that expanded red flag laws are going to stop an abuser from murdering a victim? How is that when just as many use their hands? Another part of this bill imposes a three-day waiting period on gun purchases. This was already struck down once Research and data do not back up this claim not here in Vermont The majority of suicides in this state are men over 45 and those men already own guns in fact from 2009 until 2017 out of 864 suicides it is said 58% were by firearm But a closer look shows that 76.8% of those suicides were by men over 35 Most of those are likely gun owners are ready That leaves those between the ages of 20 and 34 or 92 deaths if you account for the Conservative estimate of 60% of all adults in Vermont owning firearms that leaves 37 suicides or four to maybe five a year That can be affected by any sort of waiting period when you compare that to the 60 people in the same age demographic That hung themselves in the same time period. That's six and a half a year. You see it's not about the tool We keep hearing from this committee. You're not coming after our traditions You're not coming after our constitutional right to bear arms But by saying police can choose who could be dangerous and shouldn't have a firearm without a trial That's exactly what you're doing By saying a vengeful ex-partner can falsely charge a person and that person loses their guns This has already happened throughout the nation then you were doing exactly that Age 610 does not save lives. It's not a common-sense gun law It's a government overreach in a feel-good legislation and in doing so it's setting a dangerous precedent for a committee to ignore the majority of voters Well engaging if she uninshady is not outright violations of opening meeting and procedural laws Skyler Wolf take the witness chair and William Waysen Egger come down Hello, my name is Skyler Wolf I use he him in his pronouns and I'm the director of the safe space anti-violence program at the Pride Center of Vermont. I Oversee direct services to lesbian gay bisexual transgender and queer and HIV affected survivors of violence statewide According to a recent poll Vermont has the highest percentage of LGBTQ plus people in the country Yet many LGBTQ plus people do not feel safe accessing our legal system in this past year Less than 3% of safe space clients pursued any form of criminal legal action including relief from abuse orders This is due to an abundant disbelief that the criminal the criminal legal system will prioritize survivor safety Why request a relief from abuse order? If your abuser is likely to not only become more enraged as a result, but also maintain their access to a gun H610 is an effective way of reducing one of the most profound barriers by strengthening the system designed to provide safety at the most dangerous time when a survivor leaves their abuser At safe space We have received numerous accounts of how guns are frequently used as a non-verbal threat to survivors and or to survivors loved ones They may be silent until fired, but their threat is heard loud and clear coercing a variety of unwanted actions Guns are cleaned reloaded twirled or gestured to while survivors are being forced into sex Threatened into isolation from familial support and resources forced not to flee and coerced into whatever else their abuser may bid These threats often are compounded by the limited resources particularly for LGBTQ plus survivors in rural Vermont We at the Pride Center Vermont support the passage of H610 especially the portion Thank you William if you could take the witness chair and Kate root come down Hello, I'm William wise negrum Berlin So once again the citizens of Vermont find themselves in this chamber trying to defend their constitutional rights Once again the same legislators the same cast of characters are obsessively trying to diminish each Vermonters rights of gun ownership One incremental is warm and fuzzy law at a time H610 is just their current attempt We need to ask ourselves why the obsession with trying to disarm Vermont The thing is Vermont has been an inconvenient truth to the gun control crowd It's accepted that about 70% of the homes in the state has at least one firearm in it yet Vermont is consistently one of the tops two safest states in the country this inconvenient truth needs to be stopped These people demonize firearms, but the fact is that everything Yes, literally everything within arms reach right down to the air we breathe can be weaponized by a warped enough mind literally everything with no exceptions H610 is a potentially dangerous law a Law that may one day get someone killed. I Wonder if there are people in this room who personally know an abusive person a Significant partner or family member with a violent personality. I would like to ask those people What would happen to you if your abusive partner finds out you are the reason his or her firearms were confiscated What happens when that person is released and comes home? Do you think that confiscation will have a positive effect or will that confiscation proved to be an escalating event or Knowing how an abusive family member might respond to a confiscation. How many of you would rather avoid reaching out for the help you need How many of you would choose to stay in the shadows for fear of retribution? Thank you if Kate could take the witness chair and Burt solidly come down Good evening. My name is Kate root and I'm here today to testify in support of Bill H610 I'm here on behalf of Courtney's allies a nonprofit domestic violence advocacy group based in Berry, Vermont My organization was founded after Courtney. Gaboria was shot to death by her ex-partner in 2018 This is the second time I have testified in support of the bill The first time my friend and colleague Alex Johns and I spoke about Courtney's story her impact and the loss Our community feels after her death While the story bears repeating today, I want to focus more on the future and how H610 might create change At the previous hearing in at this hearing we hear from a few opponents of the bill Some say the bill would eliminate due process when a temporary protection order is placed Some say it goes against the Second Amendment Some say it would encourage false claims of abuse in order to remove another's weapons leaving them vulnerable Law enforcement officials shared concerns about how their departments would handle the relinquishment of firearms And one police officer went so far as to say he would feel horrible if a $3,000 gun was damaged while in police possession H610 isn't about removing due process when processing a relief from abuse order. It's not about removing the rights of law-abiding citizens It's not a way to create a loophole so that citizens can disarm people they don't like on a whim That is ridiculous a relief from abuse order is not obtained lightly or easily The bill would remove a highly lethal object from the hands of those deemed capable of enacting violence A gun is an X factor in any conflict and the term bringing a gun to a knife fight comes to mind Anytime a gun is present in situation of domestic violence the likelihood of death resulting increases dramatically and this is a material fact Guns are manufactured objects that can be replaced Courtney's life and the lives of all other domestic violence victims can never be replaced and each of them is worth more than $3,000. This is why I support the passing of Bill H610. Thank you Bert could take the witness chair and Reynette Liberty come down Yeah, Bert Solly from Barry the US Constitution is the supreme law land law of the land Unconstitutional this type of legislation is infringing on the people on the right side of the law period If any one of you in this building or state or our country, thank you for one second that the founding fathers of More that wrote the Constitution of the United States we the people supported this type of legislation No, I declare you unconstitutional if anybody Many any one of you think that this type of legislation will make you any safer from Himes Way family Friends and even pets. I declare you Intolerant period If you do not uphold the Constitution you need to leave this country we the true patriot American and see the real and In it but it's not real This is not real not at all by trying to pass a phony baloney fire-rime legislation will do nothing legislation legislators from the left create problems that do not exist in law-abiding gun owners community And this state and country This is The truth is the left a ideology a gender would like to confiscate all your guns a gun grab I've seen with my own eyes Pages running notes out to reps and senators and not even reading them Throw them in the trash Probably phone ignore ignoring the phone You guys got it read it, please You can have that one Rainette could take the Witness chair and James Sexton come down My name is Rainetta Liberty. I'm a registered nurse at the University of Vermont Medical Center I've been a nurse for 30 years and I've worked in the emergency department for over 20 years as you can imagine I've seen a lot of change during that 20 years in the ED. I've seen an increase in mental health patients I've witnessed the impact of the opiate epidemic on families in our community But the most concerning is the increase in gun violence 20 years ago. It was rare to see a trauma from a gun shot now. It is very common I also have seen a significant increase in domestic violence from with acute injuries from fractures To concussions to brain bleeds to strangulation Which can cause death within minutes if a perpetrator of domestic violence is willing to murder Attempt to murder by strangling their intimate partner What makes us believe that they would not shoot them if they attempt to leave or if they want to fight back There is also a concern for safety for children families and the community and community including health care providers The University of Vermont Medical Center recently went on lockdown Because a perpetrator of domestic violence came into our ED and threatened the victim. I come to you this evening With a plea to protect victims of domestic violence their families the community and all health care workers That are trying to provide care to your loved ones From violent perpetrators of domestic violence this bill may cause more work for some people But I think we can all agree that if it prevents a death then it's successful by passing this bill H610 You're sending a message to all Vermonters that the legislature cares about making you safe from violent people. Thank you If James could take the witness chair and Zarina Suarez O'Hagan come down Good evening Legislators writing and endorsing these illegal bills and laws are expert at using fear instead of logic black guns are scary assault weapons Except they aren't Gun-free zones and taking guns away from law abiding Vermonters will make everyone safe Except that 92% of mass shootings occur in gun-free zones No weapon tool or implement of any type is capable of creating an assault An assault is an action like on December 17 2019 When my wife was struck by a drunk driver while using a snowblower in our front yard a Tuesday afternoon at four o'clock He blew a point to six It wasn't an assault car. It wasn't assault alcohol. It was the driver that created the salt His third dewey with injury resulting my wife will require a great deal of time to heal physically and mentally Devastating to our family So here's what I think should happen now the following list of people have violated their oath of office They have written and supported bill that denies citizens their constitutional right to the presumption of innocence and violation of the United States Constitution They have written and supported bill that violates both the United States in the Vermont Constitution by denying citizens the right to self-protection from a tyrannical government At this time I would ask the sergeant of arms to remove senators Baruth ash Bailant Bray Clarkson hard hooker Ingram lions McCormick Pearson Perchick and Sirotkin from these chambers because they have violated their oaths I also suggest we implement blue flag laws These would hold any legislature responsible for writing or supporting laws as an accessory to any crime Which injures or causes the death of an individual because of being to deny the right to self-defense When the people fear the government, that's tyranny That's liberty Zarina take the witness chair and John Clare come down Good evening. My name is Zarina Swatis. Oh Hagan, and I'm an attorney in private practice in Walden I've represented victims of domestic violence and court proceedings for over 15 years In my work, I assist clients in navigating civil court processes as they work to find safety in their lives Through my client stories I have witnessed firsthand how dangerous firearms are in domestic violence situations most significantly in how domestic partners use firearms to coerce control and instill fear in victims One of the primary tools my clients use to seek safety are civil relief from abuse orders These orders can create space and protection for victims at the most dangerous times Although a court can issue an RFA order including firearms relinquishment I have seen firsthand how inconsistently these conditions are ordered across the state There are no questions on the complaint affidavit that would elicit from victims the role that firearms play in the abuse They are experiencing Because of this the onus is on victims at a time of crisis to proactively offer this information to the court When temporary RFA orders are issued and the system to enforce the orders doesn't work The victims are much less likely to seek a final RFA order Temporary RFA orders must work for victims at the most dangerous stage in an abusive relationship When the victim is in the process of leaving The purpose of the RFA statute is to provide immediate relief from intra family violence As well as to protect victims from further abuse Not to hold perpetrators liable for packs past acts of violence It's about protection. I Urge you to support H6 10 RFA order process to address the dangerous role that firearms play in domestic violence situations. Thank you If John could take the witness chair and Hannah Lane come down Hello, my name is John Clark. I'm running for governor. I've been an attorney for over 30 years I've represented many women who've been the victims of domestic violence both in criminal court and in civil cases But I'd point out that from 1994 to 2015 52% of domestic homicide deaths in this state were women 48% were men So to politicize this about gender is dishonest But what I really like to address is the so-called Charleston loophole Which this I understand current draft of H6 10 would put a 30-day waiting period on the purchase of a gun If a person is not approved or denied initially by a background check, this is a fraud It is not just unconstitutional. It is absurd federal law preempts Vermont law They're not gonna search for 30 days in a background check because the state of Vermont puts in a 30-day period They're gonna look for three days. That's federal law furthermore, there's no Appeal part right in people who are denied to owner a right to own a gun in this fashion Including women who might want to defend themselves against a domestic abuser they too may want to have that right to self-defense and To put a 30-day Requirement to have an abortion would be I'm sure many people would say well How could you possibly have the government do such a thing and I'm sure that Maxine grad and Martin Lalonde who were attorneys on this Committee would oppose that and yet Maxine grad and mr. Lalonde you have sat here You've put together this bill and his lawyers you could not defend this in a hundred years And yet we see that Sarah Robinson from Vermont Network is the one who drafted this legislation We have the emails and then you made sure she approved all the amendments. Is that not right? So what we have here is a gross violation of the Constitution by people who should be held to a higher standard as lawyers being paid Including mr. Fitzpatrick from the office of legislative counsel. You're here to defend our constitutional rights You are abrogating them you are trashing them and you're using Anecdotal cases here to totally ignore the United States Constitution Those on this committee who vote against this are standing up for our heritage in our rights And if you stand against if you stand in favor of this bill, you are committing treason against the United States Constitution and Vermonters if Hanna If Hanna could take the chair of the witness chair and Tyler Ballard come down Good evening. I'm Hannah Lane and I work for the Vermont Commission on women before I started working for the state I was a staff attorney at how justice will travel where I represented victims of domestic and sexual violence In the Northeast Kingdom, I'd like to share some examples of why it's so critical to remove firearms from perpetrators of domestic violence When a protective order is issued One of my clients requested and received a protective order against her husband and moved out of the family residence She informed the police that her husband still had firearms in his home and was threatening her with them But the police were not able to remove them. She was later murdered by her husband who used a firearm Another client was threatened with a loaded gun by her ex-husband as she attempted to retrieve her belongings The police were only able to confiscate the weapons that he had with him at the time of the incident and not the firearms He still had at his residence which when asked he denied having She lived in terror worrying every day that today would be the day that he killed her Often untold are the stories of the dozens of victims that I worked with who never saw a relief from abuse order Who would ask me precise information about exactly what would happen Whether after seeking a protective order the police would remove firearms And if so how the police would know that they had gathered them all These victims methodically calculated the risk of staying compared to leaving and ultimately deciding That the level of protection the legal system could provide was inadequate And remained in harmful violent relationships, which they deceived deemed safer than leaving Thank you if Tyler could could take the witness chair and Kelsey rice come down Yeah, I think this is everybody hear me good So first I want to start by establishing my credibility as a political scholar Thus far I've received eight fully funded phd opportunities not including including but not limited to uga osu Syracuse university and brown university. So when I speak about political matters, I expect you to take me seriously The institution of red flag laws in any form is an infringement of the fourth and fifth amendments of the u.s Constitution which protects citizens from unreasonable searches and seizures as well as deprivation of life liberty and property without due process Respectively following and adhering to such a statute makes hearsay a sufficient warrant for this unconstitutional act to take place And further delegitimizes an already incompetent justice system These portions of the bill also violate article 16 of the vermont constitution per chapter two article six of the vermont constitution Any addition to detraction from revision of our infringement upon the vermont constitution is null and void and barred for the legislative powers This is the same vermont constitution you are all sworn to uphold The issue is the ineffective and apathetic court system of the state of vermont Which much like the legislature refuses to hold individuals accountable for their actions Many of the types of offenders mentioned in the bill only face parel If they receive any form of punishment at all including offenders of child negligence child abuse cases And I was personally invested in the handful of them in recent years And these individuals far too often are free to reoffend and even when faced with time most often reoffend About a bjs study from 2015 found that 80 there's an 84 percent recidivism rate in this country from A sample of over 30 states and 600 000 criminals The bill does not combat the 90 percent of gun deaths in vermont that are attributed to ha to suicide and the Only attacking the 10 percent of those Attributed to homicide, but I first want to talk about the irony and talking about the one life saving one life and Looking out for the vulnerable portions of our society our children When this is the same legislature in the previous session that cannot Assure certainly tell me that you're going to protect these children and most of you don't respect the right to exist in the first place Thank you If calci could take the witness chair and leo martin will come down My name is calci rice. I'm born and raised in vermont. I'm a survivor of intimate partner violence I have an active relief from abuse order It is vital that I help you understand what we go through and taking the terrifying step of seeking a relief from abuse order Please take a moment to imagine how you would feel if in order to stay alive and to protect those around you You had to stand here publicly strip all of your clothes off and spread your legs for everyone in this room to analyze And pass judgment upon the most intimate parts of your being Stand here naked while every past transgression every humiliation every fear every insecurity is exposed for your neighbors Your friends your colleagues and your employers to assess Filing for relief from abuse order is not a step women take lightly It's a step we take because there is no other alternative to seek protection from violent predators that will not listen to rational reasoning The reality is a piece of paper does not stop our abusers from terrorizing us In fact when we take the courageous step to break the silence domestic violence requires our abusers recognize They're losing their psychological hold on us when our abuser loses control of their partner They lose all self control for they lack any sort of inner stability and depend upon their partner in order to feel safe and secure When my abuser was served the temporary relief from abuse order It did not elicit the rational response which would be to end all attempts to contact me It had the adverse effect. He became increasingly unpredictable and dangerously impulsive In this state abusers are a violent risk to not only women they prey upon but also our communities at large Abuser's view receiving a temporary rfa is a critical time to regain control over us Before the order is finalized and when they sense they may not successfully pull us back into psychological captivity There is no predicting what they will do to us Leaving our abusers is without question The most life-threatening period of time for women enduring intimate partner violence Our lives are worth a minor inconvenience to gun owners. Thank you If leo could take the witness chair and becky ganya come down I'm going to stray a little bit away from the topic that's on right now um born Vermont Barry I hunt Uh, I don't consider myself a republican. I don't consider myself a democrat independent I'm concerned about loss of gun rights I attended the uh Gun show that was uh last weekend with my son He bought a weapon found one that he really liked my wife signed up for a gun Uh training session for women. Yeah, well, I think you should Uh protection of yourself is very important One thing I saw at the gun show was an enormous amount of people all residents of vermont That were exercising their right to purchase an arm If there is another legislation that's being Proposed at this time for a 24 hour waiting period and there's another one being proposed for 72 hour waiting period That is to me a back door to try to eliminate the gun shows You cannot buy a gun at this Without going through an instantaneous check right at the gun show and The people there were all law abiding citizens of vermont Doing what is their right? And I do see that this legislature that's being proposed Even though the violence that's happening in this state. I think it's wrong and I Suggest if this should happen to pass and get to the governor's desk He's to a veto it. Thank you Becky could take the witness chair and alexander van steen come down Hello, my name is becky ganya and I work as the executive director at the clarina howard nickle center Clarina pride services for survivors of domestic and sexual violence in lamoille county On behalf of clarina's board of directors and staff. I am here in support of h610 Specifically we support the sections that require courts to order firearms be removed from people subject to relief from abuse orders Relief from abuse orders are a critical resource for survivors when seeking safety for themselves and their families Very often survivors choose not to file for a relief from abuse order out of fear that the abuser will make good on threats to kill them If they leave H610 is an effective way of reducing this barrier by strengthening the system designed to provide safety at the most dangerous time When a survivor leaves their abuser at clarina I have witnessed the impact that the presence of firearms has on survivors of domestic violence I have seen survivors in our shelter literally not leave the building for weeks Sometimes months due to fear of being found and killed by their abuser I have seen survivors flee to shelters across vermont and outside of vermont just to stay alive And I have lived in this fear myself. I am a survivor I grew up the youngest of five children in a home with an abusive father After enduring 30 years of physical sexual and emotional abuse my mother fled our home when I was 14 She did file for a relief from abuse order the day she left and it was granted I can't begin to describe the feeling of being taken out of side exit of my school and being brought to a shelter because the school was afraid My father would come there Long before we were all talking about school shootings as a regular occurrence. I was living in fear that this could happen to me After several days in a shelter and many promises from my father my mother and I returned home We were only there for a short few days when the abuse started again My father said if you do not leave right now, I will kill you We rushed out to my oldest brother's car We got in the car and started to leave the driveway when my father was at his truck getting his gun My brother stopped unsure of whether to drive past my father. I said drive and he did Thank you Alexander take the witness chair and anna berk come down My name is alexander. I am a refugee from the people's republic of new york I own land and and and am a domiciled in the town of rochester romant I am As a child a survivor of torture at the hands of my mother And as an adult I am a survivor of rape and domestic abuse and violence on more than one occasion And I can assure you that these laws will be used by vindictive partners to victimize and torment their targets Willingly easily because it would have been used against me two and a half years ago As a result of my experience the likelihood that I will ever let An intimate partner co-habitate with me ever again is very unlikely I suffer continually And I find it fascinating That our dear elected representatives would serve To pass legislation and bills Which not only are in violation of their oaths as legislators of the state of romant But would empower abusers And solve none of these problems Thank you If anna could take the witness chair and skylar bailey come down Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to speak tonight. My name is anna chimino burk I'm here as an advocate with deeply rooted commitment to supporting survivors And as the interim executive director at steps in domestic violence the chitin county service provider supporting survivors of domestic violence I am also a survivor of family violence My abuser was my mother similar to the pattern of behavior exhibited by abusers of intimate partner violence She too escalated to physical violence and threats By the time I was 16, I knew I had to find safety and on august 1st 2002 She did attempt to kill me And it wasn't until I found a safe adult that I could finally be free The fear I felt that day and throughout my childhood I see it on the faces and I hear it in the voices of the individuals who seek our services at steps Often we meet individuals at their most vulnerable Why they carry the weight of trying to decide whether or not it is safe to leave I support h6 10 because it provides an additional legal and protective safety mechanism during the most dangerous time for survivors It bolsters the language of the existing law and the consistency with which the conditions are implemented and enforced While we continue at organizations like steps to continue safety planning with survivors And work within communities to shift the violent violence paradigm I urge you to support h6 10 for survivors like me and the survivors that I continue to support. Thank you Skyler take the witness chair and joanna de graffin reed come down I want everyone here victims and vulnerable especially to know that there is not a person in orange in this room Who would not stand with you in hearty support of any domestic violence prevention bill in keeping with the constitution We do not believe this bill is about domestic violence any more than last year's bill was about suicide And members of this committee have admitted as much the actions of this committee over the past weeks Stand as proof that this is nothing more than gun control for its own sake Abandoning due process and the rule of law is not the way to stop domestic violence The vermont constitution states that the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves in the state And that all persons are born equally free and independent and have certain natural inherent and unalienable rights amongst which Are the enjoying and defending life and liberty acquiring possessing and protecting property and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety defending with what protecting with what obtaining safety with what On the portico of this building is a canon Captured at bennington from the mercenaries of a tyrannical government by the local armed populace It was precisely that purpose for which article 16 exists My sixth great grandfather was at the convention where those words were crafted His son was one of the armed populace at bennington fighting in defense of the principles his father had put to paper Only the month before Evidence our heritage and the rule of law point toward the contrary course yet There are some in this body who seem intent on playing the part of the tyrant I earnestly hope that the truth and right principles can dissuade you from your course Lest renovations to the portico out front be in order as that one may prove not near large enough The gods of the valleys are not the gods of the hills and you shall understand it Joanna take the witness chair and mike magar hand come down Good evening. My name is johanna de graffin read and i'm proud to serve as a board member of the sexual assault crisis team Of washington county. I support h610 because keeping firearms away from perpetrators of violence helps to keep us all safe The sexual assault crisis team of washington county or sacked works to provide advocacy and services for people of all genders Who have experienced harm and to educate for the prevention of all forms of sexual violence in 2018 to 2019? We provided over four 4400 services to the community in this county Sacked exists to transform our relationships at all levels of our community to build knowledge skills and empathy power equity Respect communication and accountability We wish to address the root causes of sexual violence in our community and work towards the end of all violence To that end it is important to note that over half of the homicides in the past 25 years in vermont have been domestic violence related homicides And then more than half of those homicides were committed with firearms And abusers access to firearms is the leading lethally risk factor for violence for victims of domestic violence And it's act we understand that between 40 percent and 45 percent of women in abusive relationships will also be assaulted During the course of their relationship according to the national coalition against domestic violence In enacting this legislation you are protecting vermonters from a multitude of forms of violence An abuser doesn't have to fire a gun to use it to threaten their partners or their children Abuses about control and power And survivors become victims if they cannot leave due to even the threat of gun violence For those reasons we especially support section one closing the charleston loophole And making sure that there is severe background checks that are in place for folks who might be perpetrators of violence Or who have perpetrated violence in our communities It's act we have seen firsthand that the most dangerous time for victims is when they leave an abusive partner This is the most important time for abusers to not have access to firearms and to keep victims safe It's for those reasons that we especially support sections two and three of this bill We also want to support section four ensuring that Follow protective orders and effect individuals cannot purchase firearms Thank you If mike could take the witness chair and sydney ovek come down I am mike mcgargan from burlington or as we call it the people's socialist republic of burlington And um, you know, I'm really concerned about the due process of law for all that seems to be not important or Taken seriously by this committee It's not the first time. I mean, I've I've tried to come to this committee to testify A couple years ago when this was proposed and also last year and it seems like this committee seems to be hostile towards People that want to point out That you guys are violating your oath To the romant constitution let alone trying to Take away our rights now. You're trying to push us closer and closer to states like massachusetts in new york and You get the most restrictive gun laws in places like chicago when vermont had in the history of not having any gun legislation needed Yet is safe as romant is Year after year in the top two states usually It seems like you guys are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist You know, nobody's telling you you have to own a gun, but it seems like you know, my rights aren't as important as how your feelings are Um, and as far as you know, this domestic assault thing there was a guy that was killed With a red flag law being served on him in maryland didn't even know the law You know that there was a an order out for him But the police come to his door banging on his door and shoot him Because he didn't even know he had been affected by this I'm concerned about that kind of stuff happening in vermont right now. We have protections For the way that this is done and i'm frustrated knowing my own family members have been the victims of relief from abuse orders that were used as um In custody situations that were used Um, erroneously and there was no repercussions for them if that was done then what's going to stop this from going forward now If sydney could take the witness chair and steve davis come down Hi, my name is sydovet. I'm 20 years old and a social work student at the university of vermont I'm here tonight to share with you my personal experience and why i'm speaking in support of age 6 10 When I was only 16 years old And a junior in high school. I was in a physically abusive relationship with a guy much older than me Whenever he got the idea that I was going to leave him He would have an outburst scream at me hold my throat and say if you ever even think of going anywhere I will go to the store buy a gun and I will come after you and all that you love One day we were in walmart. He took me over to the firearm section Pointed at one of them and said that is what he would use to kill me if I ever left him or went to the police I told my friend about this. She told our school and long story short a relief from abuse order was filed Within a week he began sending my friends and I photos of him with a firearm along with threats against us My family and even my dog This policy is not centered around taking guns away from good law abiding citizens But instead it is centered around the needs of survivors of violence Folk accusations of this sort are rare about two to eight percent Many believe that it would be easy to leave a relationship if I was being hurt and threatened But it was one of the most difficult things that I have ever done I urge you to support h610 not because those affected may be your sister aunt cousin brother, etc But because the lives this policy may save belong to human beings. Thank you If steve could take the witness chair and bob williamson come down Good evening. I I received this letter from my uh from my daughter who's an attorney in saint johnsbury this morning And I thought I would take this opportunity to read it and I quote I took some time to read the most recent draft unless it has changed overnight By the way of context I practice criminal and family law in the northeast kingdom My clients are often rightfully concerned about their loss of firearms in connection with criminal convictions I represent the people In situations surrounding domestic violence both filing and defense from relief of abuse orders A few of the things she noted number one It takes away the court's discretion over whether or not to remove a firearm All the complainant has to do is say that the person owns a gun and the court shall meaning must Order that the firearm is removed Even if the firearm has no connection with the complaint The court also must order that the defendant reside in a location where the firearms are not present Those who have nowhere else to go often turn to their family members It's usually family members who will hold on to firearms until the expiration of the order The order essentially requires the defendant to consent to a search of their home I can see down the road where law enforcement comes into a house to remove firearms And may find evidence of other illegal activity This law directly contradicts people's fourth amendment and rights Most often than not the order requiring a movable firearms, which currently is at the court's discretion Results from the defendant results in the defendant's compliance with the order Requiring that the firearms must be removed no matter what Because of the complaint indicates he or she may have access to those firearms only increases the risk to law enforcement and the general public Thank you If bob could take the witness chair and ed wilson come down I'm bob williamson of south woodstock. Thank you for holding this hearing and for your service to our state I speak for house bill 610 You'll hear from many today, but the voices you won't hear Are the 163 vermonters shot to death in domestic violence disputes since 1994 Nor will you hear from the 645 folks who in a moment of despair took their own lives with a firearm just since 2011 This year we could close the charleston loophole and require all gun buyers to complete a background check And we could strengthen our extreme risk protection orders Or we can kick the can down the road My two daughters survived the shooting rampage in their school 32 years ago in illinois But only dumb luck spared them One eight-year-old boy nicky corcoran was killed and five children were wounded Before the shooter took her own life prior to this nightmare lori dan Had been receiving the best psychiatric care money could buy Yet she still was able to purchase firearms Had her background been checked when she bought her guns and had an erpo law existed That tragedy never would have happened We've all got 2020 hindsight. We need little foresight now. Do the right thing support house bill 610. Thank you Ed wilson take the witness chair and carrie brown come down My name is ed wilson. I'm a business owner and federal firearms licensee from morrisville The proposed waiting period for a delayed atf transaction is outrageous The red flag portion of 610 is an obvious violation of due process Instead, how about working with the sportsman on mutually agreeable legislation? How about going after real criminals by using things like mandatory enhanced penalties For the use of a gun during a domestic violence incident for gun theft for position of a Possession of a stolen gun and other criminal activities But we're usually told there's no money to pursue those enhanced penalties or to incarcerate the criminals The people wearing orange here tonight represent hundreds of thousands of vermont gun owners With at least a million guns and tens of millions of rounds of ammunition Believe me if we were the problem you would know it You've probably heard the adage that when guns are outlawed I will be an outlaw Please don't keep trying to make us into outlaws Especially when you can't even deal with the outlaws you have now I will not comply with unconstitutional and unjust laws Thank you Carrie take the witness chair, please and daniel monger come down Good evening. My name is kary brown. I'm the executive director of the vermont commission on women And I appreciate the opportunity to share some information with you as you consider this bill As you've heard from numerous witnesses tonight The most dangerous time for a victim of domestic violence is when they leave The likelihood of the victim being killed by their abuser increases by 75 percent when they try to leave But for those women whose abusers have firearms, the risk is even greater The risk of a male abuser killing his female intimate partner increases five times when he has access to a firearm Relief from abuse orders can reduce violence when victims leave their abusers But only if the recipient of the order abides by it Roughly half of all protective orders are violated meaning that the victims continue to live in danger in spite of seeking a relief from abuse order Research suggests that policies requiring individuals with domestic violence restraining orders to relinquish firearms are effective in reducing homicide A 2017 study found they were associated with a 22 reduction in firearm intimate partner homicide An in-depth analysis of intimate partner violence related firearm laws and intimate partner homicide rates in the united states from 1991 to 2015 Found that state laws were linked to an almost 10 reduction overall in intimate partner homicide of all types Reducing the number of domestic violence related homicides is a non-partisan issue And restricting dangerous people's access to firearms appears to be as well As three quarters of americans agree that certain people present too great a risk to be allowed access to firearms Understanding the link between domestic violence and firearms is a key element in designing laws and policies that will reduce the number of people killed And increase the safety of vermonters. Thank you If daniel could take the witness chair and rebecca bell come down My name is dan monger I'm living new haven And uh, we have many firearms in our home. We collect them But frankly between my wife And myself. I don't know who is more at risk You see she's irish We will understand liberty find this principle to be threatened yet again We are all familiar with that expression about insanity But we are here once again Both the fifth and 14th amendments of our nation's constitution have due process causing them These safeguard from the denial of life liberty and property by our government State representatives here who operate under anti-gun ideologies have tried to take due process away from us last year And here we are yet again You would think that if these reps are trying to take our due process rights away from us. They would at least do it openly Transparently and above board But this is clearly not the case And this deception has been going on for weeks now Chris Bradley president of the vermont federation of sportsman's clubs has not been receiving draft updates of bill h 610 in a timely fashion whereas those parties in favor of this bill are Most times only 20 hours are given to president bradley and the federation to respond appropriately As the saying goes all is fair and love and war. Well, this is certainly a war and a war against liberty I am one of many here in this this evening fighting against charity One may incorrectly argue that I have no skin in the game In that my wife and I are made the tough decision to move out of this beautiful state And we are on our way to harrisburg pennsylvania Which is only a hop skip and a jump from richmond virginia and we all know what is going on today in virginia Today, it's our due process next year. You'll hopefully be trying to confiscate our guns Be ever vigilant for tyranny never ends. John adam said remember democracy never lasts It's in waste exhausts emerge itself rebecca take the witness chair and marie leota come down Hi, thank you. My name is dr. Rebecca bell. I'm a pediatric Intensive care physician in burlington. I take care of critically ill and injured infants children and adolescents I also sit on the child fatality review team for the state and was appointed to the governor's task force on community violence prevention last year I come here Representing myself, but also speaking for the vermont medical society representing over 2400 vermont physicians And the vermont chapter of the american academy of pediatrics representing over 200 pediatricians in support of this bill When we think about violence we can categorize violence into into different Categories, so there's intimate partner violence. There's child abuse. There's suicide. There's youth violence There's mass violence, but there are two common threads to all types of violence One is that the outcome of the violence the violent act is highly dependent on the method used And firearms are uniquely devastating and uniquely lethal the second is that the The likelihood of occurrence of a violent act is not Static it is dynamic it ebbs and flows In evidence-based violence prevention efforts focus on that aspect So keeping people safe during really high risk times and this is what this bill does And this is why we support it You've heard from a lot of people here tonight who are working really hard in their communities to keep people safe And this bill helps us with that work. So thank you If marie could take the witness chair and matthew hollander come down It makes me really sad to be here again And to be talking about guns but I'd like to point out to people around The room that there's an incredible amount of anger Anger and resentment about the fact that we're now talking about guns again I don't have anything written down. I just want to say that if you look around there's an awful lot of angry women You can't be putting all of this domestic abuse on the men only Women have a very unique way of manipulating and yelling and pushing and shoving these men With their backs up against the wall where they don't feel like they have any power And if you've ever seen a woman do that to a man, it's demeaning And all they have left is the things that they own they come home from work They may have a drink. They may not have a drink. They're happy to see their kids are not happy to see their kids But the thing is is that when a man Has his home invaded By law enforcement because his wife is pissed off about something that she didn't get that day And uses that that's what this bill does It empowers the woman in the worst possible way To do something to her husband that she can't do physically because she can't beat him up But she can demean him and that's what you're doing You're demeaning the citizens of the united vermont By taking away their personal property without due process and it's a shame I don't have anything else to say. Thanks Matthew could take the witness chair and don marie tamasi come down Hi, I'm dr. Hollander. I am a pediatric rheumatologist and veteran of the us air force. Okay Like many in this room I have a healthy respect for individual rights And firearm safety. I'm here to voice my support of each 610 And As a medical student On a surgery rotation 20 years ago I can still recall taking care Of patients victims of domestic violence Wrought by firearms And what we know is that many times People who conduct violence with these weapons Are surrounded by Folks who are justifiably worried and scared And what h610 Provides me as a physician and a veteran Is the freedom to be able to Protect my patients If I suspect they're in harm's way Thank you for your attention If don could take the witness chair and andrew peneman come down I give up I am also a survivor of domestic abuse I am here today because of my firearm and not the protection order the piece of paper That was in place. I represent many females who refuse to depend on your piece of paper You are not here to seemingly protect me. You are here to protect my rights My name is damary tamasi, and I am nobody Some call me a vermont hippie Some call me a chicken keeper and a beekeeper But reality is I have I am not friends of friends or capable of donating large sums of monies or promises Or really of any consequence in the realm of your reality To which something you seem to dwell I am nothing but a vermont property owning tax paying citizen a five to six generation vermont A native who have worked every day and enjoys the traditions and outdoor lifestyles has to offer us all I am not a threat to you or others I am not a danger because I choose to carry I choose to self-defend with the effect of tools available I wonder do you see me when you put in these gun restrictive laws? Because I am the one a minority if you will You are attempting to refrain japan No matter how many times or ways you allow the written word to be manipulated The criminal by defense does not follow your law Do not believe we cannot see this pre-designed agenda Being fed to you on a silver platter as if it were Do you feel it is right to coddle and comply to the special interest groups that are hand You these slightly altered multiple drafts of the same exact gun control legislations We see these attempts to disarm citizens and other leftist controlled states and despite all of us here Understand that the courts are ruling against these infringement attempts all over the country You are not here to protect us but to protect our rights. I am a survivor of domestic assault. Thank you Andrew Andrew take the witness chair and ben mckinney come down Good evening. I support h6 10 I believe that this bill can and will help keep victims of domestic abuse safer As an owner of guns and a father to children who shoot and who desire to hunt I do not worry that our ability to purchase new firearms will be taken away nor do I worry that our existing firearms will be removed This bill is about keeping vulnerable and at-risk persons safer by temporarily removing tools from alleged abusers Before they can become weapons and this I support 100 percent. Thank you Ben could take the witness chair and seat and mckillroy come down Good evening. My name is ben mckinney. I live in ducksbury, vermont I'm a social liberal and a fiscal conservative and when considering gun control legislation I try to keep an open mind and what people always tell me is No one wants to take your guns ben But in the case of h6 10, that's exactly what this bill is trying to do It's trying to provide a mechanism for taking guns and doing so With no due process Right now we have laws in place that do provide for a mechanism to disarm Would be domestic abusers I'm listening to the testimony For h6 10 From victims and victim advocates. There's no doubt in my mind that domestic violence is a very serious problem in vermont And I think we do need legislation to help Fight it, but I don't think legislation that compromises A constitutional right that shall not be infringed is the right way to do so Thank you If seaton could take the witness chair and roger vermont to come down Chairwoman grad and committee members. Thank you for this opportunity to speak today My name is seaton mackleroy And I'm a resident of woodstock vermont and a member of the vermont chapter of mom's demand action for gunsense in america I'm here to speak in support of h6 10 The legislature should close the charleston loophole and ensure that the existing red flag law is accessible to family members Respecting vermont's heritage of gun ownership and due process while supporting measures to help keep our community safe Has always been important and today the bill in front of you continues to do just that When a person is in crisis and considering harming themselves or others Family members are often the first to see the warning signs In the wake of a foiled School shooting vermont legislators saw the benefits of creating an extreme risk protection order Which allows for intervention in order to temporarily Prevent someone in crisis from accessing firearms We know that erpo laws can help de-escalate emergency situations They are a proven way to intervene before gun violence such as a firearm Shooting or a mass shooting takes place Under the current law the only people that may petition for an erpo in vermont are states attorneys or the office of the attorney general If someone is experiencing an emergency crisis where they are at harm of risking themselves or others Household members are likely to have to contact law enforcement after law enforcement is contacted They have to conduct an investigation where multiple witnesses have to be interviewed and evidence will be gathered Before meeting with the state's attorney's office After finally getting a state's attorney office or office of the attorney general is satisfied with the evidence that meets the appropriate legal standard The court must be petitioned before an erpo is granted This system creates several procedural steps for a family that is facing a personal and painful crisis If you or someone you know has attempted suicide, you know that time is of the essence I applaud representative grad's proposal to add family and household members as petitioners. Thank you If roger could take the witness chair and alex smirk come down Roger german from sudbury. I am a A veteran and I am totally against what you people are doing. You are failing in every state That's democrat You're trying to disarm the public Which you know is against the constitution now virginia just threw it out Trying to ban assault weapons and you're trying to do that here Well, all there are more law-abiding citizens with with weapons Then there are the criminals So if you take them away from law-abiding citizens, the criminals are still going to have them You can pass a hundred laws and they will not listen to your laws. They don't listen to your laws now And to the women that have This domestic abuse my heart goes out to them if you're in a domestic abuse Relationship you should recognize that right away and get out. We need to respect each other and reach across the aisle but taking guns away from What this country was founded on You know that is against the constitution. It shall not be infringed upon There are all these people come here are sportsmen. They're not criminals. Are there any criminals in the house? No, they are not they're out there robbing and raping and doing whatever they do So who are you attacking? the law-abiding citizens We need to go to the schools And teach these schools how to identify children that are being bullied because they're pushed to the point that they explode They get their hands on a gun and they go back and they kill kids You need to look For people that have mental illness Not target law-abiding citizens. We are taking your names And there will be another election. It needs you people need to be pushed out It's time that there is a change in this state and many of you came from other states My family's been in this state for 200 years german Alex takes a witness chair and darryl montague come down Hello, my name is alex smart and i'm a junior at montpelier high school I've interned with the vermont network and i'm currently interning with the women's commission The bill That is addressed today is supported by youth Since my first day of elementary school. I have trained to evade a gunman to go to a corner or a closet It's scary sitting there hoping it's just a drill Mass shootings are an ever-present fear for myself and all my peers For this reason i strongly support h610 Research indicates that the majority of mass shootings are in some way related to domestic or family violence In fact in 2018 a report indicates that in at least 54 in mass shootings The shooter has shot a current or former intimate partner or family member The act of leaving is the most dangerous time in situations of domestic violence We need to ensure that dangerous individuals do not have access to deadly weapons during a time when they are subject to a relief from abuse order In 2018 the youth of this nation rose up against fear of school shootings We fought for our safety and that is something we should not have to do This bill is of that nature. It is something that should not have to be fought for There are lives on the line and there are families that will never be the same Perhaps because i am young I don't understand but i am strongly Sure of myself when i say that fighting for a person's life should be our top priority This bill will not just change today, but tomorrow and every day after If this bill is enacted if it saves one life if it keeps one family together If it saves one life, it's worth every second every signature and every story But if it's not enacted every death that could have been prevented should weigh on those who didn't fight for it or sign Like the broken hearts Now is your time because i am a youth I can do nothing more than beg you to think of the people who could easily have been any one of us who died Imagine the pain of losing your child to an avoidable situation Take that hollow feeling that gaping hole that's left in your heart and let that build into a protective strength So that no one in the state of vermont will have to feel feel that way because this bill was not enacted I strongly support h610 because it inspires predators and domestic violence and keeps us all safe If daryl could take the witness chair and ana nemek coming down I want to appreciate you holding this hearing tonight um Your whole your whole goal in this type of proposed legislation is supposedly to help the victim I sit here today as one of those victims Victim of attempted murder In the limited time and it's not possible to begin to express the new level of perspective that you have on the fragility of life When you come literally that far away I have an incredible frustration though with this with this state because it seems to be more effort spent on limiting my rights And it has yet to even decide to prosecute the person who attempted to murder me Worse yet that person was already guilty of several previous crimes and never should have been allowed in public in the first place Yet you continue to try to put limits on the non-criminal honest citizen who wants to be able to defend themselves against these dangerous people If they have the unfortunate unfortunate To cross paths with one of them, especially after you've let them out of jail yet again As we've all seen on the news this week Further restrictions on the right of someone To acquire the ability to protect himself does nothing But make more victims not less If you really care about the victim You have the guts to stop making the political issue and simply gain more control over those that you dare disagree with Start insisting that the laws that already exist Be enforced to protect the rights of all private citizens The criminals by definition already gave up those rights I want to i'm going to end by I want to second what ed wilson had said Concerning and standing up for everyone's rights From our dead From our cold dead hands you can have our guns If Anna could take the witness chair and eddie garcia come down Thank you for holding this hearing I volunteer at court to support people who are requesting a final relief from abuse order When you left your house this morning, did you look around fearful that someone would try to harm you? Someone that you have cared about They do Survivors of abuse come to court fearful Anxious and yet bravely to face their abuser It is only too common that they mention they have been threatened with a gun and they fear for their lives The days immediately following separation are the most dangerous time for victims Sometimes the plaintiffs talk of walking out of court because of fear that the abuser will only be angrier and kill them If this bill becomes law it makes it more difficult for an abuser to get their hands on a gun while subject to a relief from abuse order That difficulty can make a difference And to defy the law would have severe lasting consequences for the abuser Remember the abuser chose An action action that caused them to temporarily lose their right to possess a gun their choice Please vote yes for bill 6 10 and protect the rights the lives Of the survivors of domestic violence Thank you Eddie take the witness uh chair and julia aggressor come down And for the umpteenth time here i am again speaking out against the lateness Lately unconstitutional bullying of vermont's gun owners I guess it was about four or five years ago when i sat in this chamber and heard a woman tell us all That any gun owner who opposed the bill at issue at the time must be a drunken drug using spouse abuser with something to hide Now at the time we all laughed at that, but i had looked at the bill at issue today I can't help but think that someone took that to heart This bill in its crafting and subsequent revisions has violated every rule of ethical legislating It was marked up in the dead of night and distributed to its proponents While advocates for the human right to self-defense were deliberately kept out of the loop This is unacceptable and this matter should be brought before the ethics commission forthwith As I consider this legislation while looking at the bill of rights, I will say this for it There is no constitutional conflict with the third amendment Other than that this bill is abhorrent both constitutionally and ethically and I shouldn't have to say this The legislators who drafted this should hang their heads in shame and do the only decent thing which is to resign forthwith For years now we as gun owners have been constantly and incessantly bullied by this legislature There is no problem in vermont to fix Those in this legislature who think it's cool and fatty to bully vermont gun owners should know We have had enough Just like the gun owners in the commonwealth in virginia. We have had enough We will not comply And now legislators threaten us with the police if we refuse to assist in infringement of our rights If that isn't bullyism, I don't know what is Do we share any values at all? What this is is McCarthyism Are you now or have you ever been a gun owner? We must not confuse dissent with this loyalty We must remember always that accusation is not proof And that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law We will not walk in fear one one of another Shakespeare's casseus was right The fault dear brutus is not in our stars But in ourselves Good night and good luck If julia could take the witness the witness chair and richard smiles come down Good evening. My name is julia westervelt-gresser. I'm a psychotherapist in montpelier When I was 19 years old one summer night I was at home with the home of my boyfriend and his family Bobby a beautiful young man just 17 His 12 year old sister his 19 year old brother and his mother After a peaceful day at the beach we all gathered in the home in their home for the evening Bobby's mom came home from work tired and she and bobby began arguing After a while bobby retreated to his room and and in a fit of anger and frustration He put a shotgun in his mouth and blew his head off Turns out he had talked to a friend about the possibility of using a gun to hurt himself He had been having problems at school. His father had moved out. He was upset and sad Had he not had a gun so easily at his disposal that night? I believe bobby might have lived His father had locked up the necessary a necessary part of the gun But like many teens bobby had figured out where the key was located Years later in my work at rutgers medical school in new jersey I was part of an adolescent suicide project We worked in schools throughout the state to educate and prevent teen suicides I learned that teenagers are particularly at risk of making suicide attempts They have no long-term history of managing their strong emotions of heartbreak rejection frustration and failure They can often have tunnel vision not seeing the possible ways out of a dilemma They can also be extremely impulsive As adults through years through the years we learn that you can feel awful even devastated one week But that if you hang in there things usually change and often get better Teens generally do not have this perspective. They are now is all that matters and is all consuming Their emotions are dramatically felt and easily overwhelm them If in a moment of despair bobby had not had a gun and ammunition at his disposal in the house He might have found a way to hurt himself, but he probably would not have died In having easy access to a lethal weapon. He not only killed himself that night He also blew away a piece of the heart His sister his brother his mother and myself Please consider h 6 10 which would help mental health providers Or families to request help to temporarily remove guns from from at kids at risk at hurting hurting themselves or others Thank you If richard could take the witness chair and elizabeth regal come down My name is richard smiles I'm a retired vermont public school educator My children and grandchildren reside in vermont And I want to thank you for this opportunity to provide testimony Tonight I speak in support Of h 6 10 This proposed legislation will give survivors of domestic violence a mechanism to protect themselves From further harm and potential death The legislation will keep guns out of the hands of abusers and will save lives It will allow a victim to seek a court order to prevent further acts of abuse In research has shown these laws to be effective and courts have upheld them against various constitutional challenges Closing the charleston loophole would provide would prohibit firearms dealers from selling a gun prior to completing a background check This loophole is a glaring and dangerous gap in our gun laws This bill will provide law enforcement officers with the time they need to do their jobs and finish background checks Before allowing people who may be at risk of harming themselves or others from obtaining guns Every family in vermont has a right to worship play and live without the fear of gun violence This is common sense legislation Which will make us safer? I urge you to move the bill forward and do everything in your power To see it become law in our state and I thank you Elizabeth take the witness chair and christopher ashley come down Good evening. My name is elizabeth regal and I am the criminal court advocate for the clarina howard nickle center I'm here in support of h16 specifically the sections that do require Courts to order firearms to be removed from people subject to the really from abuse orders I want to reach out to you and explain some of the situations that I have seen I have had survivors sit in my office with me As they have filed for temporary rfa's And said what do I have to keep me safe? I have had guns pointed at my head. I have been told that if I report this I will be killed I have sat there with them and tried to share with them that I hope that we can keep them safe But I can't guarantee it because right now those guns are not being taken with that temporary rfa This is something that is critical to keep them safe during this time It is very dear to my heart because i'm a survivor of domestic violence as well In 2005 in 2006 I had threats of myself being killed as long as well as my two children I got away But I did not file for a relief from abuse because I was terrified that that would get to that critical moment Instead of my children and I being killed along with them like he had promised he took his own life I'm trying to keep everyone else from being in those same situations as well I want to further push as far as that survivors and shelters are also Continue to flee and they continue to live in that fear and we need to place these These and safety methods and and in order to keep them safe Thank you again for letting me testify and please support the passage of 8 6 10. Thank you Christopher Take the witness chair and beth johns come down Good evening. Thank you for having the hearing Hi when the federal center for disease control tries to compare data from state to state they usually use something like per 100 000 people to Equalize the fact that one state have millions of people in one state has less than 600 000 in 2018 according to data from the federal center for disease control Vermont lost about 13 people out of each of our 100 000 residents to gun violence New York lost about four people out of each 100 000 residents to gun violence Between 2009 and 2018 New York is one of the few states whose numbers of deaths per 100 000 people due to gun violence declined Vermont's numbers increased by about 40 Despite what you've heard tonight on t-shirts New York has more sensible gun safety laws than Vermont And it isn't rocket science to understand that the cause and effect relationship That there are many more gun deaths per capita in vermont than in new york its common sense If vermont had had new york's rate of deaths per 100 000 in 2018 There would be about 40 more vermonters alive today 40 more families 40 more towns that didn't suffer We often hear the claim that if guns are outlawed outlaws will have guns The reality is that when h610 becomes law fewer people with criminal records or exhibit outlaw behavior to their partners will have guns Ordinary citizens will not experience any significant impact. This is a point of sensible gun safety legislation I urge you to support h610. Thank you If Beth could take the witness chair and carry duquette hoffman come down Hi, my name is beth johns july 4th 2018 My daughter's roommate was brutally murdered By an abuser that she had left almost eight months prior their friends Of the abuser had concerns. They knew this person had a gun They went to the family and fell on deaf ears If this person friends of this person had had another Venue or place to go her life may have been saved I am not anti gun I am not fearful that h10 h610 Will infringe upon my rights I am fearful if it is not passed More lives will be lost As somebody eloquently put it earlier if you can save one just one life A job well done my friends If carry could take the witness chair and and board narrow come down Hi, thank you for holding this hearing and considering this important legislation I am the executive director of women's safe in addison county We served last year over 500 addison county residents to experience domestic dating violence and stalking I'm a remonter. I grew up owning and responsibly using guns I have enjoyed hunting and I have enormous respect for those remonters who use hunting to put food on the table I know firsthand that sometimes that's one of the only options when times are tough I also know that a gun in the hands of someone who is heightened and abusive is dangerous It's dangerous for the survivors that I work with It's dangerous for the law enforcement who are sometimes called to respond And it's dangerous for the person who feels so desperate that the that they reach for a gun to get power We all know that this is wrong Power gang from fear is not real. It is just terror I work every day with survivors who use every tool available to them to keep themselves safe and to keep their kids safe as well From the person that they love The presence of gun guns in these situations makes the likelihood that they will be killed by their partners over 600 times higher For monitors, no one wants to limit our rights to provide for our families What we do want is to give tools to make sure that guns are not used to endanger those families We have heard tonight about how this legislation is tailored to address those specific dangerous times Please give survivors this tool. It will save lives. Thank you so much If an could take the witness chair and thomas ellie come down My name is an board narrow and i'm from more town And i'm a member of mom's demand action for gunsense in america I come from a family of hunters and gun range sports shooters and collectors I believe that there's nothing in this bill That's going to prevent my family or any of the vast majority of lawful gun owners in vermont or anywhere From doing any of these responsible activities. What I think this bill will do It's a very narrow targeted bill that will help to lessen impulsive or angry deaths by gun violence Vermont has a much higher than the national average suicide rate Whether we like to believe it or not The risk protection orders I can say from personal experience that families are often the first people to see the signs of suicide And this order would not eliminate suicide, but it definitely would reduce the lethality of those attempts Secondly, my sister is an officer in the broward county sheriff's office And she's told me from personal experience that the most Dangerous cases or or calls that police officers go on or domestic violence calls because ordinary otherwise ordinary People become incensed in rage impulsive and act in ways they would not normally and guns in those situations make those situations much more lethal Nothing in this bill is going to prevent suicide Entirely nothing in this bill is going to get rid of domestic violence entirely But this bill is going to take narrow targeted steps to reduce reduce the lethality of both of those situations. Thank you If thomas could take the witness chair and arthur smith come down Good evening. My name is thomas ealy. Uh, I reside in new fain vermont And served for 18 years as the Episcopal bishop for the Episcopal church in vermont until my retirement in 2019 I'm also a member of bishops united against gun violence a network of over 100 Episcopal church bishops working to curtail the epidemic of gun violence in the united states Our work includes advocacy for common sense gun measures, which brings me to this hearing in support of h610 H610 is not about gun control. It is about safety As a reminder of that I have printed my copy of H610 on orange paper as well as my testimony. You could have copies of that, please Orange as you know is the color that hunters wear For safety and safety is a concern that I have H610 deals with safety in at least two important ways First it closes the loophole in the federal firearms background check process A fully completed background check is a safety measure Offering a higher degree of assurance that criminals domestic abusers Mentally ill are not able to purchase firearms For the sake of safety it makes common sense to close this loophole Second h610 provides an added dimension of safety for survivors of domestic violence For the vermont women and children affected by domestic violence guns in the hands of domestic abusers pose a serious and lethal threat Between 1994 and 2017 50 percent of all vermont homicides were domestic violence related And 55 percent of those homicides were committed with firearms safety matters So as you deliberate h610 think orange But let orange represent the safety of all vermonters whose lives this law would help safeguard Then pass this legislation for the safety of all the people of vermont Perhaps safety is where we can find common ground Thank you If arthur could take the witness chair and sandy when come down Hello, my name is arthur smith. I have been working on the department of justice grant specifically to address elder abuse neglect and financial exploitation And if you look around in the room, you may notice the demographic is changing here in vermont We have a large number of people that are going to be in the senior population And so we have to contemplate What does that mean? What does that mean when you have ida? When the doors are open saying there's nothing wrong with her husband who is Slowly changing for unknown reasons Maybe the medication It may be early forms of dementia But she knows when the doors are open she's safe But when the doors are closed And clarence has access to his gun She's a lot more Concerned about her safety And why I mention this is because a part of our grant we train police officers We train detectives We trained investigators because we're here tonight to talk about safety Not just for children, but the vulnerable population The seniors that we have in our state that growing population And what we hope is that when ida is finally able to step forward and say I can't live like this anymore I can't wait to see whether or not he's going to put the gun away I can't make sure that he takes his medication so he's lucid That she knows that there is a safe place to go And we don't have it thought out well in this state We don't have shelters for People in later life that might be able to support their medication needs their respiratory needs So often they find themselves going to a friend's house And that would be another elderly woman most likely And we're here in this public discourse to make sure we make everyone in the state safe. Thank you If sandy could take the witness chair Good evening. My name is sandy when I live in brollington vermont and I'd like to just take a second to be quiet Because obviously the folks who oppose this bill have quite a cheering crowd behind me But the people who have spoken to you represent Thousands and thousands of voices and none of them are here to cheer and applaud each time They are representative speak. So please I hope you will hear their silent voices I come from a family that owns guns I live with a family that owns guns and none of them are afraid of this bill. They all support it Years ago, I got to see violent domestic Victim up front somebody knocked on our door and it was a family member I didn't recognize the family member And we let that family member in I got to see fear up close. I've never seen that kind of fear before or since It was so shocking. I will never forget it I didn't recognize the person at the door The door Was opened and it was my sister standing there. Please pass this bill. Thank you And I want to thank everybody for coming out tonight and all those that testified and that will conclude our public hearing for tonight