 Hello and welcome to the Circular Metabolism Podcast. This podcast is hosted by the Chair of Circular Economy and Urban Metabolism, held by Aristide de Tannassiades and Stefan Kanpermann at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. In this podcast, we talk with researchers, policymakers and different practitioners to unravel the complex aspects of what makes urban metabolism and economies more circular. On episode number 15 of the Circular Metabolism Podcast, I exchange points of view with Oriana Romano, coordinator of the Cities and Circular Economy program of the EOECD. In this program, Oriana and her colleagues explore what is a circular city and what are the challenges for implementing the circular economy in cities. Indeed, while a number of technological solutions exist already, legislative and economic barriers are perhaps the most challenging ones to overcome in order to get closer towards circular cities. For Oriana, perhaps one of the most promising additions of circular economy in traditional environmental regulation is its systemic approach. However, due to the added complexity, it is extremely important to have extended dialogues with relevant stakeholders at different levels, as well as encompassing the local context. In this quest towards circular cities, dialogues and exchanges between cities, sharing similar struggles and similar stages of progression in order to understand how different circular economy principles land in different contexts are also vital. However, these differences beg the question whether there should be a unique way to adopt circular economy and how do you compare circularity between cities if everything is so different? Oriana says that while it is not ideal to benchmark cities at this stage, it is essential to understand what are the important pieces of information that we need to monitor in order to take better decisions. In other words, what do we need to measure and why? Enjoy this episode and don't forget to visit our website www.circularmetabolism.com for the rest of our productions. Please help us improve our podcast by subscribing to your favorite app including YouTube, iTunes, Spotify or Stitcher and leave us a comment with your thoughts. Thank you Oriana for taking the time to meet here in Paris in OECD, it was great having a discussion beforehand about what you guys are doing here in circular economy, but could you perhaps present yourself and what OECD is doing in this field of circular economy? Sure, first thank you very much for the opportunity, yes so I work in a center for entrepreneurship, SMEs, regions and cities and in particular in a division on urban policies and sustainable development where we are working at the role of cities and regions in a circular economy. We have a program called the economics and governance of circular economy in cities and regions and we are working with four cities in order to understand what is circular economy today, what are the obstacles to implement circular economy and the future opportunities. And what sparked the interest of boiling down circular economy in cities and how did you choose these four cities, could you help us understand? Well, so basically the thing is that cities play an important role nowadays in economics and social and environmental terms. Already most of the population lives in cities and will be living in the future, 60% of population by 2050, cities are consumers of goods and also producers of up to 80% of greenhouse gases emissions, not to count waste production, energy production. So at the same time cities have a role to play in terms of sustaining the economic system of the country, so they provide jobs, they provide services and they also have a role to play in terms of public investment in lots of sectors that are involved in circular economy related activities. So for all these reasons, it's kind of the nodes of everything. We thought that it was important to look at the role of cities and regions in circular economy. So what they can do, what are they doing and how do we see them being an intergovernmental organization of 36 member countries can actually help cities and regions to move forward to their own agenda and to understand what are the conditions for the city to actually move from the transition from linear to circular economy. Have you thought of these conditions already or are you kind of investigating as well with the cities what are these economic, legislative, you know, financing preconditions for a circular economy? Do you already have some insights about this? Well, it's a tough question, yeah of course. The very basic, I mean, every time we work with cities we start by almost given for granted that technological aspect and technical aspect and dimensions and solutions exist for cities and regions to really move towards the transition from linear to circular. What you were mentioning in terms of economic and governance conditions are really the difficult parts to make sure that these technical choices and solutions can actually last and can actually be put in practice. So it is a matter of what are the new business models needed for the private sector to move towards a circular economy. It is about what are the collaboration between the private, the public sector, the university and what is the role of citizens. It's about stakeholder engagement, which means how the government at different level can be local, can be regional is actually engaging the different stakeholders that can play a role towards this transition. So it is not about only the government itself, but it is more in terms of sharing responsibilities on who can do what and how. And for doing this, of course, you need proper regulation that can actually allow, for example, the use of waste or what is actually a resource is not, we don't talk about waste any longer in the future, so in terms of production of new materials or production of new resources. It is about funding and, for example, also data and information. What is difficult is really to understand what is a circular economy, what are the opportunities for a circular economy to happen in cities and regions. And it's amazing to see that there is a lot of interest of building this knowledge really in a shared manner. The governments are working with the private sector, with citizens, with research centers, institutions and university to have a better understanding and also to make sure that all these opportunities are really taken into account. Do you think that because we discussed a bit before as well that what is the real difference between circular economy and just plain environmental regulation, right, why is this so different? Yeah, it's a very tough question. Because they actually go hand in hand, but the difference I think is in the system, in the way policies are conceived and stakeholder are engaged and how to make sure that there is a coordination, we say, across the people, policies and places. So basically people is needed to coordinate the people and quadruple helix. And in terms of policies, it's not only about water, it's not only about waste, it's not only about the spatial planning, but it is about all that in a city. And then policies in places, it's about not just the city itself as a sort of an autonomous and independent entity, but it is also about the connection with the surrounding areas and with the regions and with the study that you also are carrying out, you know, that the metabolism is not inside the city only, but it's a more like a functional area of exchanging of input and output of resources, material and energy. So the difference is in the way cities and regions can conceive policies in terms of how they can actually influence a sustainable production and consumption pattern, which doesn't mean only looking at the end of pipe of the process. So it's not only about recycling and reusing, but it's conceiving policies in a way that can change actually behavior and production and delivering of services in a circular way. So looking at how resources are used and how to make sure that resources can keep their value at the highest during the whole cycle. And so as you said, I think that the most the word that kind of strikes me every time is this systemic or systematic approach that we need to take into account for circularity more than just separate environmental regulations. How do you tackle or approach this complex task with the cities, right? I mean, you have four case studies right now. I imagine you do not start with a systemic word because it's a bit too difficult to digest. How do you approach cities into this? So we are working with, as you mentioned, four cities. One is Groningen in the Netherlands, Umeå in Sweden and Valladolid and Granada in Spain. As you can imagine, these are very different cities. They have different geographical and economic and social and environmental characteristics. So what we do is to is to is to carry out what we call policy dialogues, which means that we go and we go to the city and we talk with several stakeholders. So we have different groups. What are kind of the stakeholders that you're well, they can be from the government, so the local, the regional and also the national one. And then several categories, the private sector, for example, different industry, industrial sectors, or we talk with farmers, the agriculture sectors, we talk to NGOs, we talk to universities, we talk to research centers and all these actors that play a role in the city and actually they can have a role in the future of circular economy strategy. So we start talking, this dialogue, this multi-stakeholder dialogue can really help to understand what is the current situation and what are the opportunities for the future. And importantly, we're not alone like there is an OECD delegation, but we also go with peer reviewers from other cities. So we have really a peer-to-peer approach, meaning that there is a city, a representative from a city of the same level of maturity regarding circular economy approach that are, for example, starting to be interested in developing a circular economy strategy. So like an inspiration or something like that. In a more or an equal way in the sense that they can share experience and they can share especially concerns and difficulties that they are facing. But then we have also peer reviewers from a more mature, having an advanced experience in terms of circular economy. And namely, we are accompanied by, for example, the city of Amsterdam and the city of Paris that have started this journey like three, four years ago. And they can really also be an inspiration for newcomers to understand how does it work and what are the success factors, but also the failures and also what the city can expect in starting this journey, which is very challenging. And but so it's important to see the great motivation that these cities have to work towards this transition, to work with us, to work with other cities to learn and to try to build something that would bring value to their city. And it can be social, it can be economic, but it can be also environmental one. But you mentioned it, I think, before. And I think what we are all struggling is that perhaps they could be a definition of circular economy in cities. And that's already a difficult task. But I think what's most important is that there is a different declination and translation of circular economy in different cities. And I think, you know, maybe Paris has a different angle of circular economy than Amsterdam and Umea. And so I think that it's very relevant to kind of see how the circular economy lands into cities, you know, and how does it translate? Do you think that, you know, at the end of the day, different challenges still contribute to circular economy or there's kind of a unique approach that we should have across cities? So now, first, I don't think there is a unique approach. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. This is, I think, for sure. What the cities have in common is definitely need or a necessity to think about the use of the resources that they're making. It can be related to the land. It can be related to water. It can be related to waste and energy. And so how to make sure that all these sectors and then reflected into the policies are connected in order to produce and consume in a more sustainable and, let's say, circular way. So most of the time it can be that, for example, cities are starting this journey because they have natural resources constraints. So it is needed for them to understand how they can save natural resources. But this is not the only reason. It can be an entry point, but there are different reasons. And for example, in the cities we are working with, there is a sort of very clear distinction, at least in terms of the main objectives via the lead. They see really circular economy as an opportunity to create more jobs, to create new business, to promote innovation, for example. And so they have already started a roadmap on circular economy and they have started a program to fund projects. This program started in 2017. So far they have more than 60 projects that they had as criteria to be localized via the lead and to create jobs. So it's really about creating jobs in Groningen. It's about thinking of a new economic system that could bring economic value to the city and also create opportunities for collaboration with university and startup, given that Groningen is a university city and it's well known for the research center, for example, on energies and energy transition that they have. Then you look at UMEA and UMEA, it's about environment, so being neutral, carbon neutral in the future, how they can change the way people consume, services are provided at the same time, reaching a circular approach in all the activities for which the city is in charge of. And then in Granada, in Spain, I think we saw that the main reason was to build knowledge and innovation because of the fact that Granada was nominated in 2017 as City of Science. So it is important also to make sure what the university and also the new companies, entrepreneurs and business, how they can work with the cities and actually how the city, by subversive, can collaborate with the other actors in shared responsibilities for circular economy to happen. So different motivations, but basically common vision, I would say, in terms of let's change something for the city and let's make sure that collaboration, coordination and the systemic view can create an advantage to the city for the people living in the city. So it's more of a structural approach than a, let's say, very specific. And I think this ties in with the question of monitoring, because how do you compare the circularity of UMEA with the one of Groningen if they don't have the same objectives at the very end? And for me, I think because I'm a very flow guy and I like monitoring everything in quantitative terms, but as you said, it's not necessarily the only way to do it. And I think the approach that cities are taking is also as relevant as the quantities themselves. So how do you measure finally, or how do you say that one city is more circular than another? Or can we say that the other? I'm not totally convinced that this is what we have necessarily to say in terms of benchmarking cities on their level of circularity. But I agree with you that metrics and measurements are really needed to understand the progress. So each city will have a baseline, a starting point that would be different from one city to another. And so it is important to have a look at the progress and to have a look at the target. When studying circular economy strategies in place in cities and regions, for example, we have just sent out a global survey to have an understanding of what is going on around the world. We selected a certain number of indicators that can actually help cities measuring some impacts and impacts are related to environmental issues, like for example, in terms of water saving, energy saving, or waste as averted to landfill, but they are looking also at the economic and social aspect, for example, new business creation or startup that are following circular economy project, a number of employees created for this new business is related to circular economy. So it is important to monitor, but I think it's difficult to benchmark cities. What we are doing here within the project on the economics and governance of circular economy in cities is to help cities in different countries to self-assess, for example, the existence and the level of implementation of some governance conditions or their level of circularity through a scoreboard in which you have some key dimensions, for example, innovations, system thinking, level of coordination with other levels of government or partnership with the actors in the surrounding areas that can help city understand what are the conditions and what is in place, what is missing and what they can do. So evaluation, monitoring, that information is definitely something that is needed, is something on which we are working and it's indeed a challenging task for the city. Everybody is trying to figure it out, but it's... But also for the city to understand what are the needed information to take robust decisions and also to monitor the implementation of these decisions. So it is really a work that we are conducting together with policy makers, together with actors within the city, first to scoping and to understand what needs to be measured and why. I think this is the first... The why is a good question, actually. This is the first basic question, which is the hardest, probably, that we are trying to clarify in a shared approach together with the cities that we are working with and also together with other cities that would like to be involved in this project. Well, perhaps to look in the future, how do you see things evolving? What's the future steps of circular economy in cities and what are the future challenges? I mean, there are really plenty of challenges, but what do you think are the next steps in this process? Well, I see that more and more cities are getting interested in understanding and building knowledge on circular economy, which is very encouraging and it is also something that stimulates cities in having a place not only in their own agenda towards the circular economy, but also with the rest of the world, for example. And lots of cities are recognizing that circular economy can be a concrete approach to achieve the sustainable development goals, which are very interrelated across one another and specifically in respect to the SDGs, 12 on sustainable production and consumption patterns. Cities are also recognizing that they have a role to play as a promoter, as a facilitator, or as enablers of circular economy and they are working with organizations like us but also with other levels of government to understand what are the conditions needed and what needs to be changed. Cities play, for example, an important role in terms of financing, for example, for the future of investment and infrastructure. This is very important. But for example, they have little to say in terms of waste-related regulation. I mean, they don't always have... They don't always play a role. They cannot really change this, but they can coordinate, they can communicate with the upper levels of government in order for starting a discussion and make sure that the needed changes also in this regard can actually happen in the future. So it is important to stimulate this dialogue, the understanding, and then take a concrete action. Most of the time, still in an experimental way, it can be in a small scale, but this is like a baby step or a normal step that should be taken in order to make sure that these steps can be actually scaled up and then they move from experiment to reality and a very common and normal future of all the cities around the world. So I guess, as you said, I think the governance aspect is really crucial and we tend to forget about it, like the horizontal and the vertical simultaneously. And the role of the OECD generally plays a very strong role, I guess, at least at the vertical multi-level or multi-scale, how do you call it? Multi-level governance. So is that the ways that we need to figure out to disseminate more and to facilitate more this kind of city to city, but also city to, I don't know, Europe or city to bigger G7, I mean, coalitions, I mean, bigger coalitions or something like that. Is that the... Yeah, it's coordination cities can, in terms of cooperation with other cities, I think it's very stimulating for building knowledge, building capacities. Think about something that has been done in other places and can actually be replicated or can be of inspiration from other cities. Then the way of how to make this happen needs coordination across levels of government and also within departmental, within department at municipal or regional level. For example, we saw that there are several mechanisms in place in cities. One is the Innovation Agency, for example, in Valladolid. That is a coordination mechanism across the different departments at municipal level. In order... If we are saying that a circular economy is systemic, then the economic, the environmental, the mobility and transport department, they have to communicate and they have to make sure that these policies are connected. And the same happened at a vertical level, so from the national, the regional, the local level, in order to understand how to overcome some obstacles that can be, for example, related, as we discussed, to regulation, that can be related to information, that can be related to the financing of circular-related activities and also infrastructure. For example, in the Netherlands, the national strategy for the implementation of the national strategies on circular economy, there is also a fund to which cities and cities can actually apply in order to start with projects related to circular economy. And I think it's a way to make sure that the implementation is possible. Thanks a lot, Oriana, for your time. I'm very much looking forward to the next steps and to all of your work. Yeah, thank you very much. Thanks. Thank you for listening or watching our podcast episode till the end. If you liked this episode, if you have unanswered questions, if you agree or disagree with what was said during this episode, please leave us a comment to spark a debate. Thanks again and see you in the next episode.