 Digital Freethought Radio Hour First I was a Catholic girl Love the mess, I watched the swirl Smoke from candles burning While Mary looked up yawning I got confirmed and I confessed I really felt that I was blessed Plus I love my uniform So did the boy who lived next door But something changed When I became of age And all those things I thought were true Someday I'd break Hello and welcome to Freethought Radio Hour on Wozo Radio 103.9 LP FM Live right here in Knoxville, Tennessee Today is August the 1st Make sure you don't forget that change in the month I can mess that up all the time And hey, if it's not Then you're listening to a rebroadcast of the show And you should not be trying to call in I am the Wombat! And as usual we have Dowder 5 And friends on the show Dowder 5, how are you? Fine, how are you? I'm wonderful Anyway, Digital Freethought Radio Hour is a call in talk show It's about atheism It's about Freethought It's about rational thought It's about unionism And the sciences All of those things in one lovely package Conversely, we'll also be talking about religion Religious faith God's holy books And superstition And if you get the feeling you're the only non-believer in Knoxville Well, you're not alone There are several atheists, freethinking And rational groups that exist right here in Knoxville And I'll be telling you how to get in contact with them After the men's show break Also, hey, did you know It's been an atheist call in television show broadcasting right here in Knoxville And it's been, I don't know, for like seven years now Did you know that, Dowder 5? Yeah, I saw it I don't think the concept of turtles doing karate And carrying swords around is a very viable concept But I've seen it Turtles? It's not that great No, no, no, no No? Is that not it? No, that's not it In fact, if you were listening to this show, it'll be broadcasting right now The atheist call in TV shows Broadcasted by our own friends here in Knoxville And if you ever want to catch up on any of those episodes There's a fan of the show that's putting up those shows on YouTube There's a whole record of them And all you got to do is search for freethought in Knoxville In order to see those episodes yourself And in spite of what Steve Martin would have you think There are lots of these songs out there And you'll be hearing some of them right here on this program right now I got Quiet Company coming up This is going to be a great show Today's topic is How to deal with presuppositionalists That's a big word But we got one of the biggest brains To talk to us about it And his name is Raul And he's a good friend of mine Raul? Hey Raul How are you? Welcome Hey, thanks, I appreciate it Glad to be on Glad to look forward to talking with you guys Cool Raul First, before we begin I think it's absolutely imperative that you have a radio name Please tell me what your radio name is In the next five seconds What is it? Let's see Three, two, no Carl Pagan Carl what? Carl Pagan Carl Pagan? Okay Okay, okay, okay, okay So Carl Raul Slash Carl Pagan So you're a street epistemologist Or a street epistemology enthusiast How do you phrase it? And what does that mean to you? Yep, so street epistemology as I understand it Is a dialectical method In other words, a question and answer Method of dialogue between two people Where they talk about the roots of somebody's beliefs In other words, how did you get there? Like show me your math Show me how you arrived at your conclusion And the method you used to get there And then together We work with, okay How do we know that this method, whatever it is Is actually reliable So are you saying then It's like a conversational technique That two people can use to see If they have a good reason to believe what they believe? In short, yeah, it's a great way We're an easygoing show I know there's people on our roads Listening to this, we want to make sure We just like Let everybody know what we're all about So why do you like street epistemology? How'd you get into it? I got into it just because Like I've always been interested in knowing what's true Like even when I was a Christian I'm no longer a Christian But when I was a Christian Always interested in truth And even as an atheist I maintain that value of I love truth And I'm always willing and open To engage people who disagree with me And I feel like this method Really does away with a lot of the barriers That exist in two people understanding each other And getting across one That's a brilliant way to say it What do you mean by that? As far as taking, oh, going around barriers Yeah, so I find it to be really helpful And I regularly hit the streets To do on the street interviews with strangers A lot of people are willing to talk About what they believe in And why they believe in it And we have a great time Would you say it's like an argument Or like a debate? How does that actually work? No, I wouldn't call it an argument I wouldn't call it a debate I would just call it a chat I guess to kind of steal a turn From your YouTube channel Let's chat, check it out everybody You owe me five cents But it's a chat But for the most part Raul, about your setup So there are a lot of different ways That I've seen people do street epistemology I've seen people use like a table Where they have like two cameras And a setup there I've seen people like Maybe have a stationary camera And record two people at once How do you go about it? And where do you find like The best places to have these kinds of chests That you're talking about? So I use a method similar to what Another popular street epistemologist Uses Anthony Magnavosco Some of your listeners might be familiar with him He's kind of like the main guy But he hits the streets with a chest camera Which is the same kind of setup that I use So I got a GoPro Shapt in my chest I hit the streets And the downside to that is You can't see my face But you can see the reactions Of the person I'm talking with Other setups allow you to see both faces If somebody has a good table setup Like you do for instance Right I also like the ability Well sometimes I wouldn't say it's a good thing To see my face Sometimes I just feel like A little too scraggly For that to be on camera What do you think is the appeal Behind like setting up a camera on yourself And starting a conversation with people Is there any kind of apprehension Because with my setup I have like a table And only the people who are I guess willing or curious About the setup Sit down and have a conversation with me But I feel like you are actually Engaging people in a more freer format And I guess what kind of challenges Come up with that Yeah I mean there's probably Pros and cons of both Definitely like the table setup Is more maybe inviting Less aggressive People come to you type of thing Whereas with the chest camera setup You're kind of like walking around Actively seeking people out So you might be able to have more opportunities But at the same time People might be a little bit more apprehensive Do you feel like you ever get Like really shy people That don't want to have a conversation Oh yeah I guess what are you doing that Yeah definitely I don't just try to gauge the situation I mean some people And you know after five minutes They are done you know So after about five minutes You have a timer for yourself You said Some people do use a timer And there's definitely benefits to that I don't I think I started to use one When I first started going out But I just kind of like Just try to gauge the conversation How comfortable the person is You can kind of You just kind of get a sense Of when someone is done With the conversation Because I try to pay attention for that And what would you say Is some crucial things About the practice that you're doing Like do you How much do you value listening Etc. Like what are some core concepts If for anyone who's Also interested about Starting these kinds of conversation With people What are your tips Yep so you always start with Understanding a person And then And then you go into Asking them Beyond what they believe in So you get the The nuts and bolts Of what they believe in Help them define their terms But then The meat of the discussion Is going to be mainly about How did they Arrive at their conclusion What method did they use Did they use Some kind of Scientific method Did they use perhaps faith Did they use prayer You know whatever it is Yeah we mostly Well I was wondering When Wombat sits down He's willing to talk about anything And the sign says That you know we'll talk about Anything Do you have a Pre-set going into it That if a person sits down They have to have A kind of a topic in mind That I don't know coincides With what you want to talk about How do you approach that Are you open to anything Yeah I make it clear to the person I'm talking with Basically what I'll say When I approach somebody Is I'll be like I only have basically like Kind of two-prides area With what we talk about And that is number one Something you're fairly confident of Number two something that is Kind of fundamental to your Understanding of the world So those are my two-prides area And I just let the person Choose from there Okay so they can't Talk about like cheerleading Or something Nothing wrong with that I love cheerleading No I mean it starts off With a fundamental understanding Of the universe So they have to get kind of Kind of deep going out of the gate Yeah I prefer those I prefer conversations about topics That if this person Didn't have this belief any longer It would kind of pull the rug out From under them Those are the conversations That I'm kind of interested in having But just imagine The broader range You can really talk about anything Cool Yeah I've noticed That Raul has a style That's really really How do I put it Aggressively curious Like he really wants to know Like to a sincere level What this person thinks Particularly on special topics And I've seen most of this Talks are about religion Could you tell me about Some of the other Non-religious talks that you had With street epistemology Like what was some of the Four talks that you had That were just like really out there So the interesting thing About that Is that I just moved I'm living in the northeast right now But I was living in the Bible Belt Initially When I first started going out And filming the interviews I was having with people And I think geography Has a lot to do with The kind of conversations you get Because I've always gotten A lot of God beliefs A lot of Christian beliefs And once in a while You get like a stray belief Like karma or aliens Or ghosts But I think geography Has a lot to do with The kind of stuff you encounter So that man I want to talk about food up there Is that it? Like for instance There's just one other Popular street epistemologist Cordial curiosity He's in California I believe And you notice a trend With the kind of beliefs that I guess tend to be popular in California There tends to be a lot of I don't know Eastern slash mystic I'm not really sure how to describe it You're talking to a Californian Right now I kind of understand What you're talking about A woo I think It's its own variety of woo But it How do I say it? Are you saying Or the way how I see it Is street epistemology Is a really good way To talk to people About supernatural beliefs That they have You had mentioned things Like karma Or like reincarnation Even spirituality These are things That we don't really Have good ways to test And my position On things where I When I don't have Like a really good Tangular grasp I'm fine with saying I don't know Or I'll just withhold belief Until I have better evidence To believe it And if I told people Like if I told people That straight out At the beginning of the talk It might shut down The conversation But if I take This street epistemology approach It's not just a good way For me to express My point of view But it's also a really good Way for me to learn About how they came To their conclusions And if they find out Something really cool About how they reach Their conclusions Maybe in a way That they are responsible Or has a really good reason Behind it I want to learn from that But it's just a really good Way to maintain That kind of conversation What do you think? Yeah, I like that attitude Of I want to learn from that And it's important like Important attitude To keep when you're talking With people Yeah, it's important To keep the conversation Two-way You don't want to Come across As being preachy Or even preaching You want to I mean admit To be able To learn something In a conversation That's the whole Conversation Right So we are not here To talk about having nice Conversations We're here to talk about Conversing Conversing with Presuppositionalists And I think you have one Coming up pretty soon So what do you mean By a presuppositionalist And then who are we Talking to And then Tell me how your initial Thoughts are And then we can get more Into it in the second half Of the show So what is a Presuppositionalist Basically? So a presuppositionalist Is somebody who uses Presuppositional apologetics What that is So basically all it is Is just somebody who Accepts as their foundation To knowledge God exists And so in other words You can't know anything Apart from God And so the Presuppositionalist Apologists will typically Go about trying to Demonstrate how you As an atheist Or whatever you believe In any non-Christian You have no foundation For knowledge period And the only way You can build any Fact claim Any knowledge claim Is if you accept The most fundamental Fact claim of them all And that is that The Christian God Of the Bible exists Let me try to take a step back If I had like a guitar I got a guitar right here In fact I'm looking Right now If I had a guitar And I hand you the Guitar And let's say You couldn't play Guitar But my presupposition Position My presupposition Is that you can play And the fact that You aren't playing well Right now The fact that you're Playing like I don't know The theme song to Different strokes On the guitar Is because you choose Not to play it You're choosing Not to play it And my worldview Is that people Who can't play the guitar Are just people Who really choose Not to play it Because in my idea I'm assuming I had a time The presupposition Is that everyone Can play a guitar And those who can't Are just choosing Not to play it well Is that kind of Close to it? What do you think? But you see, Ty Which you don't understand Is that you're not An ultimate authority Okay So, God He's an ultimate authority He's able to serve The function of Being a foundation to Knowledge What kills me About presuppositionless They assume the answer Before they get Into the argument There you go In other words When you go into an argument A philosophical argument With something really The basic The baseline is You know I know that I exist Because I think Chateau Ponce Just we Whatever You know that kind of thing And everything after that Is up for grabs And you can argue about it You can think about it You can give and take You can arrive at Conclusions But a presuppositionless Comes in and says Everything below this line Is not up for argument Everything below this line I take his truth And you can't question And that to me is It's dishonest up front Not only that But it doesn't seem like They're willing to move Or budge on that position Right, they're hot Uh-uh Have you ever seen Matt Dillahunney Do a debate With a presuppositionless? Yeah, in fact He did a What was the name Of that presuppositionless Raul? Oh, I can't remember his name It happens to be The same one that I'll be talking with here In a few weeks We're gonna play Psy10Burgentate Yeah, Psy, that's right Can I give you some advice? I don't come here I'm soaking it up Oh, don't go there And don't go there I mean, it's just gonna Be beating your head Against the wall But maybe we're entertaining Yo, we're gonna get Into all the advice In the second half In fact, most of the show The second half Will just be advice And maybe some role play As well But I guess up front Who is Psy10Burgentate? Can you say that name again? It's such a So Canadian What's going on here? That is so American at all He's very Canadian He's Canadian He's not He's actually not He's actually incredibly rude Excuse me All right, so Psy10Burgentate Okay And who is he? He is Somebody who's been Doing presuppositional apologetics For, I don't know How many years now Possibly like 10 years Or so But he started out As an evidentialist So he was all about Giving you facts to prove That the Christian God Of the Bible exists That he's one true God And then he came To this realization Where he realized, no Wait a minute If I'm using facts To prove that God exists That means facts Of the ultimate authority Human reason is The ultimate authority And I'm robbing God Of his due Because I'm saying He's not the ultimate authority So that's why He uses the approach He uses It's his way of honoring God Of submitting to God Of saying Jesus is Lord Not just of My life He's the Lord of my reason He's the Lord of logic He's the Lord of everything Do you think that It's a cop-out If you ask me It's a simple cop-out But go ahead Do you think that Psy Genuinely holds These points of view Yeah, I have no reasons To doubt his insistence I mean the human It's easy sometimes When somebody believes Something crazy Like there's no way They could believe that And definitely there are people Who are just ingenious But I mean the human mind Is you know It's wonky sometimes It does weird things You know You can't see me nodding I'm wondering So you're talking with Psy He's like this really I wouldn't say Skilled debater Because he's not really Trying to have a debate He's really just trying To preach in front of somebody He kind of talks past points And he has ways Of avoiding the deeper subjects That his partner The bait partner Wants to talk about But he is very well experienced At what he does Have you heard any of his Previous conversations With other I guess atheists Or other people who aren't Who don't necessarily Hold the same presuppositions That he holds? Yep I have In preparation For my discussion with Psy I'm you know Revisiting a lot of his Material Really watching a lot of his Stuff To just get To swim in those waters And just get more comfortable In all that But yeah I mean He Like I said earlier The main tactic Of the presuppositional list Is to demonstrate somehow That what you think You know You actually Apart from God You have no foundation For knowing it And so the way to do that Is for them to ask questions Like You know Is it possible For you to be wrong About everything You know How do you know You're not in the matrix Oh you know I mean So I guess our listeners Would be asking then Right now Like What's the big deal Why can't you just answer Those questions And have a good conversation With Psy Yeah It's tough I mean The question that they're Trying to answer Is legitimate Like it's legitimate To ask What are our foundations For knowledge And the fact is Like there Are some things We know There are some things We don't know As far as our foundations There are some things That we just accept That it's kind of exploited By somebody like Psy He'll exploit the fact that You can't You can't Count for Why you for instance Trust the laws of logic Like for all you know They're going to change To know Yeah but he just Makes claims Just like most Christians Do Most religions do They simply make Claims and expect You to buy into them They say Make a claim that God Well they don't even go There They don't say God exists first God is the ultimate You know Authority in the universe And you have to buy into it But they They bypass the entire step Where they have to prove That God actually exists And it's It's dishonest I think that's the True point that I'd be inquiring about Because doubtful has a point You're in there Trying to have a conversation With someone Generally trying to Understand something In a curious And sincere way Whereas Psy is going To the conversation Trying to sell a brand He's not there Trying to learn anything new And he's not there Trying to be Exactly Demonstrated that he's wrong He's going to fight For what he believes regardless Of if it's Completely shown to be Irrational or not And because he's not Coming in there with The openness that you are It's not really A conversation anymore It's just Hey a listen to me Hour It's the listen to me hour And the cool thing About street epistemology Is if you have two people Who are generally Trying to understand You can get to an amazing Level of understanding With just working with Someone Kind of like if you're Working on a math problem Together You say hey This number This set of addition This line doesn't add up The way it should be And the other person Realizes the mistake And you guys can Correct it and both get To a more accurate answer But if you're working With someone who's Disingenuous Or someone who's So ardently Stuck on just one Frame of thought You can't really get That kind of feedback And you're stuck And you'll even End up going in loops And you can't really Expect it to have Like a fundamentally Productive conversation With that person So I guess what is Your goal with talking With Cy? I would say my goal Is to try to apply The same questions That he uses with people To his own belief And that is difficult Because I feel like Cy and people who Use street Or presuppositional apologetics One of their main tactic Is to avoid You mentioned earlier Avoiding subjects Yeah, it really is An invasion of any And all questions That might be aimed And targeted at Their foundations Right, and I can't see That it will be Productive at all I mean, you might As well walk up To a street preacher On the corner And try it out Shout him Because it's not It's not a conversation It's just going to be Making the same claims And the same points Over and over again It doesn't matter what you say To me, you're giving him Credibility You have reason To bring to the argument And all he's doing Is to say No, no, no What I believe is true And there is no argument There is no Back and forth There's no communication Not only that But go for it There is actually a little Like Rhyman reason To like his approach And when you understand that It can be an interesting Exercise to like question Some of his foundations Like for instance When he says that God exists And God is real Because without God You couldn't know anything In other words What he's saying is God is self-evident When he says That's the case I want to ask How do we determine Whether or not Something is self-evident How did you determine That he's self-evident? What's the criteria For a self-evident truth? When are we justified In accepting Something is self-evident? You know, The thing about it is It's not just you and him It's the audience as well I assume Are you going to have people In the room? Or is it just going to be online? Great question What is it? Because the audience Is a silent participant And if you make Some really, really good points I guess you could justify The entire exercise By saying That you're going to be able To sway some of the office I mean, the audience members But I guess it depends On the size of the crowd And the receptivity To see how worthy it would be Anyway, I give you kudos For going there anyway And it takes a lot of bravery To go up against a Recent officialist Who's not going to listen To anything you say It takes a lot of confidence To listen to someone Who's not going to listen back Exactly But I would say this Would you mind talking About the event Just before we head out When is the date What show it's going to be on What kind of audience Will be there Things like that Yep, I don't know How set and stone it is I'm talking back and forth With the host Or the co-host Of non-secretary podcasts And he gave me Some tentative dates And I just don't know How set and stone those are Tentatively, sometimes In the next month, I would say We plan, he plans on having Me and Si on for a conversation Okay, okay And if anyone wants to watch that Where could they go to check that out? Yep, the non-secretary podcast Actually just subscribe to it today Since I'm going to be on there If you guys are listening to some of their material And it's actually Really interesting It reminds you of Some of my favorite podcasts But you can find it on any Podcast platform It's called the non-secretary podcast And yeah, I would just say Look out for that particular conversation It should be coming out So just strictly podcast Check it out on your favorite podcast Follower Yep Okay, cool So we are actually getting Close to the bottom of the hour Like I said, we're going to play some music We have some quiet company coming up This song's called Set Your Monster Free And when we come back We'll be talking about some of the free fuck groups That you can join Right here in Knoxville Well, daughter, I once thought That I had angels in my room They were sleeping on my fan While I was dreaming of you And daughter, I once had Such desire to believe That our lives had been planned out By an unseen deity But you don't have to waste Your time consistent So daughter, just be strong Enough to make up Cause you don't have to waste Your time, your time Join in on the conversation At 865-333-5937 That's 865-333-5937 And now, back to the show Digital Freethought Radio Hour Welcome back, I'm Juan Bat And this is Digital Freethought Radio Hour On Wozo Radio 103.9 LP FM Live, right here in Knoxville, Tennessee Listen, we just had a great break And I love that band If you want to know what that band is That is Quiet Company The song's called Set Your Monster Free Check them out, however you get music And listen to them, they're a great band Wonderful story, and we have previous episodes On this radio show Where you can hear about us Going to more depth about Quiet Company Particularly Anyway, let's talk about Some of the Freethought groups That you can join Right here in Knoxville First, there's the Atheist Society In Knoxville, founded in 2002 We're in our 15th year! ASK now has over 800 members And you can find us online on KnoxvilleAtheist.org Or you can go directly to meetup.com And search for Knoxville Atheist Don't be let down by the number of people Who are RBSP, known RBSPs There's lots of people that show up And it's pretty simple If you don't live in Knoxville You should still go to your meetup And your local Freethought or Atheist meetup And search for an Atheist group in your town If you can't find one, start one Also, you can join ASK in person At our weekly meetup group Like I said, it happens every Tuesday evening At West Hills Flats and Taps We change locations Oh, where's the new location? Well, for one more week only We'll be at Black Horse Pub and Bearden Just off Kingston, Fife and Bearden But starting next week I mean, next week Week after We will be back at Marley Staff Room and Bearden Awesome! That's my favorite That's what we've been there for several years We've tried other places We've been gone for like a year And now we're going to be back At Marley Staff Room and Bearden So anytime after like April, August 10th You can join us there It's a great place in the city To meet up too Lots of parking Lots of great food Yeah, absolutely Good drink and great conversation Yeah So everybody's welcome And as long as you don't come to preach And proselytize, provoke or punch You will have a seat available to you anytime Thank you, Atheist Experience Another large free thinking group here in Knoxville Are the Rationalists of East Tennessee Great people I've done two talks with them so far And they've been around for over 20 years RET has a bi-league-y set of presentations And discussions at Pellissippi State Campus Near Hardin Valley Road And they meet on the first and third Sundays In the Goan's Admin Building Slash Cafeteria Annex And if that's too much to remember Just go to Rationalist.org And click on Upcoming Events And there's of course The Sunday Assembly Which started in England Just a couple of years ago And has spread around the world It's a no-god church setting For those who no longer believe in gods But still, like fellowship Of a church-type gathering And they only meet once a month And that's on the fourth Sunday We also have the Secular Student Alliance Which has programs to give camaraderie And community to any free-thought High school or college student Who would like to get involved In the free-thought movement Or who would just like to find Other free thinkers to hang out with Everybody needs like-minded friends And atheists are no different Again, if you ever want to call into this show Our number is 865-333-5937 That's 865-333-5937 I see a dancing phone in my mind And you can check out Digital Free Thought Blog For even more topics Anyway, this show we have A good friend of ours He is What did you call yourself? Carter Pagan? Carl Pagan? I love Carl Sagan And you gave me five seconds To come up with something And that's what popped in my imagination Cool And he is a street epistemologist And we've been talking about that On the show for a while But again, he's the guy Who likes to talk to people Using a friendly method To get to their foundation Of their belief And try to figure out If that foundation is reliable And if it is He wants to know about it And that's why he started These conversations He has a talk coming up With a presuppositionalist And a presuppositionalist Is someone who goes into conversations Already assuming that they're right About a very specific thing And are more or less Unwilling to move on that- On that front So what- It's like- It's like the battle between On a movable wall And unstoppable force We got Raul on one side He's rushing down On that presuppositionalist We got the presuppositionalist saying I'm not moving I'm not moving, I'm not changing my mind No matter what And we're asking here on the show What will come up What will come about of it So Raul I think what would be cool is To talk about some advice That you might give to presupps Talking to them And then maybe what your goals are Particularly in this conversation Why don't we start with goals first What exactly is your goal With talking with Psy Bergenkate Which is the guy that you'll be A pretty well-known presuppositionalist That you'll be talking to On the show coming up later this month Yeah, so I guess my goal is to apply A little bit of his critical thinking To his own view So I think a lot of the questions That presuppositionalists ask are good It's good for us to examine Our foundations to make sure When we're building a house That we have something solid To build on top of So a lot of these questions are good But I feel like a lot of times Applying those same questions To his own view is what exactly What's missed And so it might It's kind of like saying How can we not see the sun at night If the earth is flat But we have to assume the earth is flat So something's wrong with the sun And this is the problem that I have With presuppositionalists Because they won't change any Of the position that they start with And as far as I'm concerned Most of the premises that they start with Are false But you can't get them to move off of You know Sy does have the position Where he says any world view Aside from the Christian world view Is absurd And therefore he can only argue From the Christian world view His argument is If you're not arguing from the side Of Christianity You're not making any sense And there's no point talking to you Right Therefore let's talk about my point Of view And assume that it's the only You know rational one Like how do you even get over stuff like that Yeah The hard part really is trying to Get Sy or whoever you're talking to To share some of the burden of proof Because I think it's legitimate for him To ask me to defend some of my foundations Why I assume what I assume and so forth But the tough thing is to say Okay let's also apply these same questions to you And how do you do that You know how do you kind of turn The tables like that It would be cool if you guys were working on A similar goal Like my strat Dealing with people who are really unmovable Particularly people who have like an opinion And it's not so much that Yeah it actually is kind of like he has A very strong opinion that Christianity is true He's not able to demonstrate that Evidentially That means with evidence But he does have a very deep belief about it And that's the same thing to me Because he's like a guy with a really strong opinion But when I do my talks With people with strong opinions My goal isn't so much to Dive into the details of their opinions Because I can get that they hold it genuinely I get that they love it very much What I'm interested in is Can we work on a goal together To better understand why you came to this conclusion And if I can talk about the methodology That you used to get to your belief The how questions, the why questions, etc Then maybe we could set up a criteria That you're using to Really genuinely hold on to belief that you have And if you have a criteria Which you should If you admit that you don't have a criteria Maybe that's a more interesting point But if you do have a criteria Then maybe we can look to see if that criteria Is biased towards your conclusion already Because if it's a biased criteria It may not tell you as genuine information As an unbiased criteria And if your criteria is Christianity is the best And anything else is absurd If that's my criteria that told me That Christianity is the best Then we can obviously look at that and say Hey, this criteria seems to be obviously biased Towards one religion and none of the others Or even non-religions So like why are you using a biased criteria To reach this conclusion? Yeah, that is interesting So one thing that a presuppositionalist Might say to that is that Because basically what you're saying is It seems like a flawed methodology To assume your conclusion That presuppo my point out is that For a foundation to knowledge It's necessarily circular And so for instance they might point out The fact that like this logic They might challenge you to show me Why you trust logic Show me why you trust And accept the reliability of logic itself Without using logic Because you can't assume it's valid When you're trying to show that it's valid What else can we use? I mean it's like saying Your senses lie to you I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christian tell me That you can't trust your senses The senses lie to you What else are we supposed to use? Yeah, also is there anything wrong With saying I don't know If you don't have a good way to figure something out Like my base foundational position Is I'm happy with I don't know Because I don't know is actually The best answer not just an option But the literal best answer to have When you don't have a conclusive way To reach a conclusion I hate to use those two words In the same sentence But like if you are trying to figure something out And you don't have a good way to do that I don't know is a great place to be It's not the end, it's just a recognition That you have limited ways to do things And it's actually an intellectually honest position And there's nothing wrong with that We're raising a society where We need to say I know We need to choose our team Or our politician It's fine to say hey I'm waiting for more information This is the best that I have at the moment It seems to be pretty reliable I can test it, it can improve And in the event that it's wrong I'm willing to learn more better ways But here's my criteria that I'm using To get to your level And it requires these certain things These certain kinds of criteria And if that's not a good basis I'm willing to improve it What are you using and why is it reliable And what criteria are you using And is that criteria biased And if you don't like that, that's fine I understand that you like the way that you like to think But it seems to be the case that If I can't get to where you're at I'm either going to say I don't know As like my final answer Or hey, I may have something pretty useful right now That seems to be pretty Good with the way how I've been doing things already And I'm fine I'm fine with those two things right now Because they seem to comport better With the reality that I'm experiencing So here's the comeback From the preset So when you say I don't know is the best answer So let's accept that as your claim Your claim is I don't know Sometimes it's the best answer Ty, can you be wrong about Everything you know Can I be wrong about everything that I know Not everything I think there's some things that Are we role playing right now? I don't want to get too distracted On the radio show I would say There is A measure of how absolute I am About any belief And when someone gives me an absolute claim Like Tyrone in all situations are you X Or Tyrone in all situations are you Y Because my beliefs tend to be Based on evidence That necessarily puts me in a position Where I need to be open to new evidence That might change my mind I'm never in a position where I'm 100% Or 0% in anything And that might sound weak to someone Who loves God 100% And I understand that But from my perspective It shows that I'm being open minded With different points of view And I find that's more important Than I think that open mindedness is actually More of a virtue Than the consistency Of saying I'm never changing my mind That I understand we're coming from I understand that you accept this I understand that it doesn't make sense To you or whatever You're expressing some empathy there I think that can go a long way Helping create a more Friendly conversation Yeah I also know that You'll be talking to an audience And there's a big component with How you will appear to the audience With relation to how you're talking And I know that's not such a big deal As far as like The nuts and bolts of the conversation Who's using the more rational arguments But it's a factor that I think That's considered With regard to how well you're conveying Your idea to someone And if you are, how do I put it Just as unempathetic May possibly rude Or as stubborn as Si is Not only is it not an entertaining conversation That people won't watch But it might actually color your perspective In the same light of absurdity That Si has Because there might be atheists who don't even know What street epistemology is So I think it's good to just show That you're an affable person That you're a really nice guy and you actually are So that's an easy win For you to just invest in While you're conversing with Si I think Doug did So we have another street epistemologist Who goes by the name Pine Creek And he definitely came off as the more Likeable dude in the conversation Even though he was an atheist So you have Si who's like condemning non-believers Left and right, whereas he's having this Really genuine conversation with Doug Who's inquiring about his life Throwing out jokes, making Si laugh It puts atheism in a really Nice context in that Here's a guy who doesn't like atheism Whatever, but yet he's having a good conversation With someone who does identify as an atheist Who is an atheist Who isn't fitting the caricature That's been set up for atheism It's kind of cool I would say that's the key to that I think that's a good goal To keep in mind and definitely Try to think about how I can incorporate that I guess it should really sprinkle the whole conversation You could definitely take a more aggressive approach If you want to, but I think if The easier goals would be Can you work together on A shared Goal between you and Si Because he's not going to move on his positions And it's going to be really hard to have a genuine conversation With him So you could try it where you are Trying to throw the questions back at him But I bet he's going to know exactly how to deal with those And then throw them out And he might ask you some leading questions as well We can talk about ways to handle that as well But I think the easiest wins Are Put a good light for atheism Go to put light for you personally Light for street epistemology And show that hey listen I'm trying to have a productive conversation with you I'm a really nice guy and people call me an atheist And I recognize that I'm an atheist too But that's not a bad thing We're actually a lot of good people And we're willing to have really good conversations with people Even people who won't change their mind I guess any exposure is better Is better than no exposure So go for it, good luck And let us know if we can help Yeah, definitely What do you do with Leading questions? Because I like to ask a lot of leading questions Like do you think you're going to go to hell? Do you want to go to hell? He has scripts that he has scripted out the answers And everything too So he's going to try to lead you down a path Right Yeah, I guess it depends on what I'm kind of familiar with all those leading questions And then I might take a different approach Depending on the question But we talked about how like To defuse the situation And not get stuck in the vortex But leading questions Is to Invite him to like let's figure Theirself together I wonder how we would answer that What would be a good approach Yeah, I think the best way To break the script is just To answer honestly And use your logic Because some of those questions are really dumb questions If you've studied them And know the answers that he may not know Or he may not even have the perspective On You know, like What do you think about sin You know that type of thing and do you believe the murder is a sin? Of course he doesn't know That sin is not real Or he doesn't realize that murder Is factually by definition Illegal Because it's the illegal thing of somebody You know, have you ever sinned? No, I've never sinned Because, you know, sin is not real Sin is a trespass against God And if God's not real Then sin doesn't exist Larry has a very straight forward point Some of these questions That he plans out Will backfire on him With the least amount of thought Yeah, definitely to the honest mind Sure, but to him, no And he's not there to engage in his own thoughts He has a lot of outs for it But I would say Larry's point on answer honestly Like always, it's a great one It also shows that you're trying to be honest too That puts you in a good light I would also say, as you said Change His leading questions Into you asking yourself the question And then express Your thought process As you try to deal with the question And that way you can ask yourself No, the politicians like If you don't like the question You wish he had asked Oh, no That's just honest, I don't think that's good at all I think though if he asked you something like Hey, do you think you ever sin And don't just directly say yes or no to him Because that folds you on his script But I would say ask yourself, have I ever sin? Let me see, do I think sin's an actual thing Well, I would have to come to terms With which God am I sinning against And do I believe in the God? No, it doesn't seem like I like that I like that What he's looking for is just He wants to know what you believe But what you're saying we should do Is don't just talk about what you believe Like highlight the method Of the focus on the method That you're focused on I don't want to give you my answer I want to give you like, this is my thinking art This is how I arrived here This is the method I'm using Maybe it's wrong, what do you think? Show your work And even if he says, hey you can't reason without God You can still internalize that and be like I can't reason with God, that does seem like That makes sense because I would need better evidence The ability to reason just seems to be proof That I can reason, and I can't tie that Into a God until I have good evidence For God beliefs, so I guess I'm wondering Right now, what's the evidence that you have To tie all reasoning to a God belief Aside from you just saying that You can't do it without God Just the ability of expressing yourself Out very clearly is The audience will be able to key in more Because you're probably the newer person On the block, they're probably More interested in what you have to say Like a street epistemologist, what's that? We already know what science is going to say We already heard the God arguments But who's this guy who's rationalizing things And really really invested in the method And I think if you just take your time with that Regardless of the questions that you get You'd be able to answer them honestly Show up methodology is really important to you And never be misled down a bad line And one thing that a lot of people A lot of debaters Just let slide and it drives me crazy The atheist experience does this all the time They'll get a caller They'll talk about how the universe Can not exist without God And they assume up front That the God is their God The Christian God And they never call them on this They never say, okay, let's say that The universe can't exist without a God Now can you draw a line Can you give me the reason Why do you think that God Is your God And that's a huge gap that they can't fill I've never heard anybody fill it correctly Or I'm not correctly But even Honestly There's no good Way to fill that gap So just be aware that they're going to do that And then call them out on it I would think Call them out in a way where you're still thinking Because if you call them out He's done this so many times Where he's used to people calling him out But if you're calling him out As you're thinking about it The only way that he can interject is by interrupting you And if he's always interrupting you That looks better for you because you're not The guy that's interrupting him Does that make sense? Yeah, I got you That doesn't seem like a good reason But I can see why you would think that My only issue that I would have Blah blah blah blah blah Exactly And you can say I'm an atheist All these religions are coming at me The Buddhists, the Islamists The Muslims, whatever Even Mormons are trying to tell me That their God is the right God Even if I accept the fact that the universe was created by God Why Should I believe that that God is your God And let him try to fill in the gap there Yeah, and if he says all reason can only come from God How did he get it to his God specifically If he says all reason Or you can only know things because of God How does he prove that Aside from just the fact that X exists How does X existing prove that his God exists And specifically his God But I think just any God at all Is probably like the better justification And then if he is able to demonstrate that How did he get to his God specifically I think that would be really good But the goals, I think the goals would be Show you're an affable guy You're a good guy And See if you can work on a criteria Do Essie on yourself because I'm not saying you can't do Essie on him Definitely try it But if you start the process of When you ask me questions I'm going to show you why the method is important I'm not just going to tell you that the method is important I'm going to show my line of reasoning To get to the answer that I give you And it just Highlights you in a really good light I just said Larry and I We're both willing to help you out regardless Of whatever you need We're really happy for you Essie yourself That's great going into it I'll definitely keep that in mind Okay, Raul Do you have any closing thoughts on this process On talking to Pre-self positionalists Pre-self positionalists What would you say is some good Leaving comments on the matter Because you're coming up at the end of the hour Do you have any final words you'd like to put out To the audience You want to promote your own channel One thing I would say Is that a lot of Pre-self positional apologetics Is coming from a reformed theology perspective Which has a very high view Of God's grace God's sovereignty Okay, we have 30 seconds left I think Raul's How to just cut out a little bit Oh, did I cut up? Yeah, but we have 30 seconds left We would recommend that you check out StreetKnowledge on youtube.com That's your channel, right? Correct, StreetKnowledge, yep And please tune back in next time for more Digital Freethought Radio Right here on Lozo Radio And thank you for our guests who are coming in Doubt or 5, got anything to say real quick? Everybody's going to somebody else's hell Alright, bye guys Goodnight, bye Thank you guys so much I never heard of put that in your life Everyone's going to someone else's hell My tagline