 any distracting. So Sue, you have a question. Just a quick question. Since you referenced that neither Essex Town or Essex Junction have a rep, do we have, like, is there somewhere where you've documented what the expectations are for filling? Yeah, we don't have it. Can we get a copy of that? Yeah, I think I have forwarded that on to Greg Dugan as well as Tammy Getchell. I'm getting that correct. And so both of the, and it's been, I think it's been circulated to some degree, but it may require you all to have some direct asks to think about somebody. And so, Megan, we have a fairly large audience this evening. This might be a good opportunity for you to, if you could very briefly, you know, verbally fill us in on what is expected of a trustee on your board. Yeah, the trustees right now, they meet about once a month. Most of the commitment is in that pretty much an hour long meeting. The trustees are responsible for reviewing our financial statements for renewing yearly our contract that they, that they determine a count of the kinds of programs that we're going to cover, what we're going to cover for the municipalities, and they, in addition, oversee any kinds of contract negotiations that we have with the cable companies. Okay, thank you, Megan. Any other member questions? Megan, I said this to you at the Village of Essex Junctions meeting. For all that are here, town TV has been fantastic to work with. When COVID hit, they were moving with light speed, working with us and other communities to go online, to be able to do virtual meetings. As we all know, maybe our viewers don't know, our viewership is the top of anybody, probably other than Burlington, not even sure about Burlington. What's that? I was going to say, it's hard to beat Burlington's meeting coverage, but you're close. Well, we don't always want to be Burlington, trust me on that one, but we like where we are. Our viewership is way up, and we have a lot of YouTube video people that comes through town TV. So they helped us with the setup of this room. They helped with the setup of the Village Boardroom. They have been great, and we enjoy our relationship with them. To put a fine point on it, what we offer is the, your meetings are streamed live to your YouTube channel. I did just look at the Essex Select Board channel, and in the year since that playlist has been made, there are 6,000 views, which I find absolutely stunning. Just the last meeting alone had 60 views. If you had 60 people, I don't know if those are individual, you know, it's hard to know if those are individual IP addresses or somebody going back and reviewing it again. But what that offers, there are agenda items listed there, so folks can get a sense of what exactly it is that they're watching. There are links so that you can jump to certain agenda points, agenda marker points. YouTube does provide some transcription capacity. So they're, you know, I think having all of that content. And then, of course, we're not archiving content on YouTube. YouTube is a platform that we use at this point. If it were to change at any point, all of the videos are archived, and town meeting TV under the work of CCTV is undergoing a process to become a digital trusted repository. It's a very specific term in archiving language that we are basically holding your content and the community content in what we call perpetuity, you know, in our, in our, in our lifetimes and the lifetimes beyond, hopefully. Okay, Pat, I see you've got your hand up. Yeah, thanks, Andy. And hi, Megan. I haven't took a lot of what I want to say, but I wanted to express our gratitude. I think we owe you a serious debt given the hybrid meeting and how much we've used it to increase our communication between the public, making sure people can attend meetings throughout COVID. Just, you know, you guys do great work and want to make sure it's expressed just how crucial you are to our entire meeting schedule. All right, thanks, Pat. Any other, any other comments? Are we, is this closing out the topic? I was going to go to public to, if you, would you go ahead if you want to. Okay, just so, because we do depend so much on what you're doing, I just wanted to make sure that I did see in the budget that you're budgeting for technology, but I guess you feel confident that you're budgeting an adequate amount to ensure that we do have a robust technology solution. Well, the, what we're asking for today, this budget ask is, you know, what you'll see on the memo is what we did in FY 9, FY 21, what our budget is for FY 22, and our request from your FY 23. It kind of, my brain kind of explodes at all those different FYs in one memo, but that's what you're looking at. So the municipal contribution is to cover sort of, it's your contribution to support the operational work that we do overall. It's not increasing coverage. There is also the possibility if you are interested in discussing, and that might be something once you have a trustee appointed, if you're interested in discussing further coverage, you will see that I think you, I think you went over the allotment, you're allotted three municipal meetings a month. And with all of the conversations around merger or no merger or separation, you know, we can't just not show up at meetings that are deemed important if they go over. But we don't have necessarily either a contract in place. I mean, I think your town staff works really hard at making sure that we cover the right meetings, but there are meetings that we're going to say, no, we need to make sure that we cover this because it's important for the public. So there is an opportunity for you all to discuss adding coverage. And whether that's on a case by case meeting by meeting basis, or whether you want a lot, a certain sum that would be for a certain number of meetings, different municipalities participate in that conversation in different ways. So thank you. But I don't, maybe I didn't ask a question or, but I don't feel like that was the answer. I'm talking about ensuring that you have the right technology and that the technology is, you know, meets the capacity and is dependable. We've had obviously some glitches and you referenced that. So I just wanted to make sure that you are, you know, in your budget looking at how to, you know, how to get it to the point that it's, you know, a little bit more dependable. Yeah. So we have a memorandum of understanding that we sent to you all that went over the hybrid installation. And I think of this as a three-year capital investment. We recognize that, you know, we saw how quickly technology changed during the pandemic. I recognize that technology is going to continue to change. So three years from now we may have cameras that are running themselves in a certain way. We may have audio voice recognition technology that's much more reliable. Everybody is at this place. You're not alone. The legislature is trying to figure this out. And we have to do as much as we can. And so we do have some budget planning. That's, for me, it's the three-year capital plan, sort of that three-year technology horizon. And we're almost through year one of those three years. So we have two more years with this system that you have in front of you. And then I imagine we may be coming back and saying we got to figure out something else or we need to improve upon this or, you know, we need to have redundant internet access so a meeting isn't interrupted by an internet average or we need to have a backup. So yes, the short answer, that was a long answer to the question which I could have said yes. Thank you. One other thing, Sue, that I don't think has been discussed too much is that I think we're going to be asked to move to Zoom from teams. And I think that town meeting TV has had fewer issues with Zoom. So I think there's going to be, at some point, we'll be shifting over. So hopefully with a lot of warning, so folks have the right apps installed and so forth. All right. Anything else from board members before I open to the public? There is one hand up in the public. Okay. There is someone online with the initials SM. If you'd like to speak, please identify yourself and go ahead. You're muted. Did you have a question? Maybe that's a mistake, a hand. All right. Annie Cooper. Hey, thanks, Andy. I would just like to also extend such gratitude to Megan O'Rourke and the entire team at CCDV. We are so fortunate and so grateful. And just in the face of this question by a select board member, Sue Cook, you were so gracious in your response to the question that could have been phrased better. We're so grateful to you, how savvy you've been, how professionally you've been, and how dedicated you always are to everything that you get done for our community. And thank you for being so consistent so that I can always find what I need and so can our entire community. Thank you so much. Great. Love to hear that. Thanks, Annie. Thanks, Maggie. Thanks, Annie. Any other comments from the public? So Megan, is there anything you're asking of us this evening? This is informational for us. It's informational and it's a budget request for you to consider in your FY 23 budget the continued municipal contribution that's outlined on the second page of the memo in the chart. And you're help finding an Essex trustee rep. So I guess there are, I guess I do have some, I do have some things that I need to ask more. So those are them. All right. Thanks. Anything else from the staff? Move on to the next agenda item. Thank you, Megan. Thank you for. Thanks folks. Take care. Thank you for Scott. He's awesome. Yeah. We appreciate him too. Okay. Next agenda item presentation from a discussion with Essex Rescue about fiscal year 2023 budget request. Who do we have speaking for this one? That is Colleen Nesto and Colleen. Let me know if you want me to pull up the powerpoint or I'll go through slides for you. Yeah. Thank you. Hi, everyone. I'm Colleen Nesto. I'm the executive director for Essex Rescue. Joining me is our board president Karen Danaher. I do have a presentation that I provided the slides for. Being sensitive to everyone's time, I drafted a summary of things that I can go through, which will give us plenty of time to answer questions as I expect there will be a few after this. So I'll start with that. Essex Rescue has provided service to Essex for 50 years. And in that time we have undergone many changes. However, the most significant changes have occurred over the last 20 years. We have transitioned from 100% volunteer organization to a combination department with nine full-time paid staff, five part-time, and 36 volunteers. Our volunteer workforce once as high as 70 sits around 36 now. A volunteer averages 70 hours of duty time per month. Many of them are no longer able to commit to regular weekly shifts. Our call volume 20 years ago averaged 1600. Our current call volume is estimated to reach 2700. Mutual aid calls have increased. For example, St. Michael's Rescue covers on average one call a day in our service area when we are already out on another call. Currently our mutual aid partners are also struggling to keep up their call volume. There are municipal EMS services in Chittenden County who heavily rely on volunteers as well that are going out of service daily because they have no personnel to run their trucks. This is an approaching crisis for EMS as baby boomers are aging out, which is a result of higher call volume. Due to all the factors I've already listed, we made the decision to increase staffing and add a second truck to our highest call volume times and days of the week in order to meet the demand for ambulance service. The result of our decision leaves us currently operating on a budget with an extreme deficit of more than $232,000. This means we are operating utilizing reserve funds which are meant for replacing ambulances and equipment to pay our bills. Our per capita request for funding over the last 20 years has not kept up with inflation either. Regardless of what we bill, we receive fixed rate reimbursements from Medicare, Medicaid and private insurance companies, and we have many users of our service who do not pay us at all. This is not a self-supporting service. There is very little government funding and grants available to emergency services compared to the fire service since we're not considered an essential service. When we are eligible for funding opportunities, we do take advantage of those. The education and clinical expectations placed on volunteers nowadays is enormous. We have made great advances in pre-hospital medicine, but it has come at a cost of our volunteers. We are still a volunteer supported organization, but there are not enough volunteers willing to do what we do now. We are extremely fortunate to have the volunteers that we have with us today. If we cannot continue to support our volunteers with appropriate training, mentoring and equipment, we may need more paid staff members in the future. The bottom line, we need a significant increase in funding support from the towns to stay in service. Without that support, we will simply be done when we run out of funds. Simply stated, the cost to replace us will be significantly higher than what we are seeking for support from the towns we serve today. I expect that there's going to be a lot of questions. We know that this is a substantial increase and a rather unexpected one at that, but we have also faced some pretty unexpected challenges over the last year, two years, three years, which got us to where we are today. So I welcome any questions. Okay, thanks, Colleen. Questions or comments from board members? I don't see any hands, so I'll go ahead and ask some of my questions. Colleen, from a personal anecdote standpoint, I know my mother needed to be taken to the emergency room during the past year and it was during a period of time, she's in an assisted living facility and they would not allow me to take her, so she had to go by ambulance. Is there any information you have that some of your call numbers may be inflated during the COVID lockdowns because of transportation and quarantine kind of issues? You know, it's hard to tell our call volume. If you look at the data that I've provided you, the call volume has been increasing for quite a while. The bottom falls out though when we start losing our volunteers and have to increase our staffing. Essex, all of the communities are growing, but Essex and Essex Junction most substantially and not just with independent residents, but also multi-residential dwellings where, yeah, when you've got a population of 80 to 100 residents in one small area that are prone to requiring medical attention, yeah, that's going to increase our call volume. I wouldn't say it's just because of COVID. Okay, I guess other question is, I know this is a statewide issue, kind of national issue, really, I guess, with regard to having adequate volunteer staff. Again, anecdotally, I hear that your ambulances are seen in many places that seem to be far flung from our service area. And I know I did see the data that you had shared that I don't recall the numbers off the top. My head was a very high percentage of your calls are within Essex. And you're not, I guess the question is, who determines your service area? How do you decide where you're going? Is there a prioritization? How does all that work? I understand what you're asking, I think. So our service area is decided based on the towns that want to utilize our services for transport. So Essex Rescue covers parts of Westford, parts of Jericho, all of Underhill, all of Essex and Essex Junction. The district, Vermont's EMS system, much like we have counties, is broken up into districts. Those districts decide how mutual aid is provided and who the next ambulance in, that's not something Essex Rescue decides, that is this district group. Therefore, when Essex Rescue gets called out, there is already a predetermined list of ambulance services that dispatch contacts to get the next available ambulance in. And that, so for example, Essex and Essex Junction, the first line in would be our second ambulance. And if that is out, then it would be St. Mike's, Colchester, UVM, Williston, for places like Underhill and Jericho, St. Mike's to a certain point, then it's Richmond. So we're trying to keep the closest service next available in. But there's points where once one town explodes with calls and ambulances start going there, then we're digging deeper when another town is also having the same call load. As far as our ambulances being seen in all sorts of different areas, I don't know if that's them responding to other calls or seeing them in different areas. Obviously, our ambulances are serviced all over the place, not just locally here in Essex Junction. But Essex Rescue is one of only a few agencies that provides paramedic level intercepts to neighboring towns. So for example, if Cambridge is coming through with a significant trauma and do not have advanced life support capability, that is something Essex Rescue has committed to providing any ambulance coming through to ensure that that patient gets the best possible care. On the bigger scale, Essex Rescue does not do a substantial number of intercepts or mutual aid requests. I think the number was like only 100 and something calls in the last few years of outside our service area, which is not as to the total for Essex Rescue from 2017 to present was 615 mutual aid or intercept calls. Whereas, oh, sorry, that's into Essex service area. It was only like 100 calls. But it wasn't, I mean, it's, we are more the user than the giver of that service. You mentioned dispatch. Your dispatch services are provided by the town of Essex. And we dispatch actually for all of the municipalities that you serve. Am I correct there? No. Are you talking about you dispatch for Essex Rescue? Yes. Yes. We have pieces of equipment that we have purchased that is at the police department and they have provided that service for the last 50 years. So we're providing that service for not only Essex, but also for other municipalities. You're providing the service to Essex Rescue, yes. And so my question is, I guess, is there any in kind contribution that could be considered there with regard to your per capita, I don't know what the right term is, the service fee or whatever, the municipal contribution since other municipalities that are in your service area are not paying for dispatch services? But the town of Essex is, would you consider our dispatch service any value with regard to our contribution to our per capita? So the issue we're facing is the operation of what we are doing is what we are requesting the increase for. It is not to pay for any additional services. This is simply to provide the service that we are currently providing now. If that is something that the town wants to discuss of Essex Rescue paying for that dispatch service, we can certainly discuss that, but it will likely result in an increase to be able to pay for the service. Yeah, I understand that, but it would also distribute, potentially distribute the cost of dispatch to other municipalities, and not just Essex. I mean, Essex pays for a hundred percent of your of the dispatch services. Jeroc could contribute a penny to the dispatch services. So that's what, if your costs go up to them, so you can transfer them that to help support dispatch services, I think, you know, I understand that our would go up to, but if there's a, if there's a, a, uh, would pro quo or whatever the right term is, um, it would work. So this, this is, this is Karen Danagher, the president of Essex Rescue. And I think I understand your question. I think I understand what Colleen is trying to say. So currently the budget and our proposed increase doesn't include, um, at the increased cost of also paying in effect for dispatch services. So we would have to go back around to everybody and adjust all the numbers. Um, and honestly, Essex, um, is, is the largest user of our service. So in effect, a big portion of it would be a bit of a shell game. Um, but, you know, certainly if you want us to do that, we would have to have that number and incorporate it and then go back around to everybody else and, and rediscuss because we don't have any other sources of funds to cover expenses like that. It's not there now. Yep. Okay. Okay. And yeah, and, and maybe I don't know, I don't know how much of a, of a difficulty it would be to decide what that number would be. And if it ends up being something trivial, then it's not worth doing, but I don't, I don't know. Um, we have to discuss why there's worth continuing that. Right. Yeah. Tracy, go ahead. Just a quick question on the general info slide. It talks of one ambulance being 24, seven, three 65, an additional ambulance being 12 hours a day. However, on the today slide, it mentions three fully stocked ambulances. Um, does the, are there two or are there three? And if there are three, does the third just run back up for the other two? So great question. Um, I can understand why that's confusing. So the difference in what those slides are discussing is stocking with the equipment and supplies versus personnel. So during the day 24, seven, three 65, we have one ambulance guaranteed. The second ambulance for us runs five days a week for 12 hours. That is also fully staffed with people. The third ambulance is often a backup backup. It has, we have been known to take three simultaneous calls if we happen to have extra people. Um, but that is also we rotate our ambulances to help with, um, the use and to keep them longer. So it, um, it sits as a backup, but it is available, um, in situations where we require multiple ambulances. Great. Thank you. Well, it's, it's, it's also a maintenance issue in that, you know, things happen to the ambulance, they require repairs, they require snow tires and winter, you know, tire rotations and such. So, and they do breakdown. So that's why, another reason is why we have three. Great. Thank you. I saw Pat's hand up. Go ahead, Pat. Thanks, Andy. Um, I don't really have a big concern about the dispatch, especially if you've been doing it for 50 years. Um, not really sure how easy it would even be to kind of segment that out into a cost analysis. So I'm not of the opinion that that's a road to go down right now. Um, and this may be a better question for Karen, but I'm not sure. Uh, you know, as you mentioned, you know, you are coming to us with a pretty substantial increase. Um, and I believe that a few years ago that there was another one. I'm wondering if there's a way, if you guys see projecting out into the future, I don't believe that any of us here on the select board are objecting to necessarily paying, you know, for obviously rescue service. That's critical indeed for our community. I think probably most of our reluctance comes from the suddenness of the ask. Um, do you have a plan maybe going forward where if, you know, it looks like this is something that's happening, you know, you can begin to ramp up a little earlier than previously. Um, I'm just thinking of, you know, again, from a perspective of us needing to pay for it. The one time large jumps are sometimes harder to deal with than the regular increases, even though we do appreciate you trying to keep the costs down. Um, any thoughts about that going forward? Yeah, definitely. And we have done a projection out. Um, as Colleen mentioned, we have a significant deficit this year. Um, which we're using our reserve funds for ambulances to cover 232,000. We will still have a deficit next year. The ramp up you see in the materials does get us eventually to a level where we believe we will be okay for a while. And certainly, you know, it's still very dependent on can we retain the volunteers that we have now? We don't pay our volunteers one cent to do what they're doing. And they spend a lot of hours and time doing it. Um, if we have to have more paid staff because we lose more volunteers, then we'll be reevaluating again. And somebody mentioned COVID earlier, honestly, sorry, that had a bigger impact on our volunteers not wanting to be on the ambulance. You know, it's a hard thing to ask of a volunteer to expose themselves to that. So, you know, it things that are happening out there in the world that we can't control are impacting a number of items for us. But that's probably the biggest one. And that's the biggest part of our budget payroll is over half of our budget. Thanks, Karen. So I think that the comment on that though that the memo does include a projection out to, I mean, this number goes up over, you know, 500,000 over the next couple of years, right? So there isn't, this is step one of a more significant, you know, a continuing ramp to a much larger number, right? That's, that's Yeah, some of the neighboring communities, specifically Richmond and Fairfax that are kind of bordering on two sides of us. The final number that you see there on a per capita basis reflects what they're at already. Actually, they're a little more than that. So we're still well behind the other towns in the area and what other folks are paying in their towns for coverage. So we will be as conservative as we possibly can. We've done a good job, I think controlling our expenses as long as we can. And if we can possibly lower these numbers in the future, we certainly won't. We're a nonprofit, we're not intended to make money. So thank you for all that you are doing. I feel like our, our communities definitely benefit from the safety and services that you provide. So thank you. I just wanted to say my question is about the annual subscriptions, which I think are a really great opportunity for anyone that's in your service area and also for a alternative way to raise funds. And I'm just curious. I know I just get like a, an envelope in with my mail once a year, but what other avenues have you been doing to make people more aware that that is an opportunity and, you know, a peace of mind to, to have that service for, you know, a reasonable amount? We, so obviously there's the mailing we put it out through social media as well. Several of the elderly facilities in town, we will make visits there. COVID has made that tough this year, but a lot of them, the facility management is aware of this that we offer. So, I mean, we're, we're out and around in the community to, you know, it's been in the reporter before it's been in the free press. The problem with those is now that they've all gone to electronic. I'm not really sure that that reaches everybody as much as social media does to be honest, but we are, we are continually looking for ways to get that out there. We were asked by other municipalities like to be consider increasing our subscription. We did that several years ago from $45 to $50. And that, that provoked a lot of hardship on a lot of our seniors who are on incredibly fixed income where $50 for, you know, the average working home is something that they can typically work through. But a lot of our seniors who are, some of our primary service users wouldn't be able to afford that. So I feel like we would be excluding a fairly large percentage of our residents if we were to increase that anymore. Any other board member questions? So there used to be a citizen advisory board that was disbanded a number of years ago. I'm just wondering with the significant increase, whether there's any, any way to get more of a seat at the table for the town. I don't know. So we did used to have a community advisory board, which did have municipal select board members part of it. That really fell aside. It faded out. People stopped losing interest in being part of it. So it didn't continue. Anyone can apply to be a member of our board when seats become available. We do have community people that sit on our board. It can be a it doesn't happen very often that thing that there's opportunities, but that is certainly an option if somebody wants to consider being on the board. But aside from that, unless we were to start another community advisory board and there was significant interest from all of our stakeholders, then that's certainly something we could consider. Okay. As was mentioned before, this is a pretty steep jump. What happens if we choose to only partially fund it? The answer is actually pretty simple. We run out of money that much sooner. Yeah. Okay. Any other questions? Okay. This is, I think this was a, you don't need anything from us tonight. This is an informational meeting for us to, as we're working on our budget. Correct. Okay. I do see one hand from the public up. Anybody want to, are we okay with going to the public? Okay. I see a different hand up now. Gabrielle Smith, go ahead. Hi. I just want to make sure Patty Davis's hand was up before mine. Did she put it back down? Sorry. Yeah. It must have gone down. It's gone down again. Okay. All right. So first, I just want to thank, I guess, Essex Rescue. I'm really grateful to be in a community that has this service and such an exceptional volunteer and paid staff. And I was really struck at that slide that we've been referring to back and forth that has the, not only the increase, but talks about the range of cost per capita and what we're seeing in those neighborhoods, some of our neighboring communities. And while the increase this scene is obviously really steep for all the reasons you've explained, you're still staying pretty much in line with what seems like reasonable costs to be requesting of the serving communities. So I would be very much in favor of our select board supporting your requests that you need in order to maintain the level of service to our community and to our neighbors and also pledge myself to do what I should have done a long time ago, which is to subscribe. And we'll encourage my neighbors, especially this time of year, I think about some of the things we all choose to do this time of year and have those, you know, lots of presents under the tree and maybe these, this is the kind of thing that we can also remind ourselves to keep something for so that we can really support our community and minimize the impact to those in our community who can't, it's a struggle to afford to our property taxes. So thank you all so very much for everything that you do. Thanks Gabrielle. I do see Patty Davis's handbag up. Go ahead Patty. Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my call. Well, have you considered, well, I know that the ageing population is growing exponentially in Essex and I think you mentioned that in the last two or three years. Some young families are moving here, you know, to get away from the storms and all that in the fires. But it's where people that have lived here, at least in my neighborhood, they're like been here for 40, 50 years. So I was wondering if, like what Gabrielle said, this time of year people are in the spirit of giving. If you considered maybe having some kind of outreach to having a representative from Jericho and one from Underhill and one from Essex and one from Essex Junction on your so-called committee that could help you market your service and that they should contribute all the communities because I know many elderly people that moved to downsize, moved to Jericho and you have a larger aging population. I shop in Jericho because I'm right on the Jericho Essex line so I do all my shopping there and I'm getting to know a lot of people in Jericho and I just wondered if there's a way whether you get someone from Essex Town or someone to help you maybe market your need on a volunteer basis. I don't know if it's part of your committee but maybe have someone or yourself, both you go to Jericho and Underhill and express what you could express today. I think you'd be surprised on how many people would contribute. Thank you. Thank you. All right thanks Patty. Annie Cooper. Hi thanks Andy. One of the main reasons I live in Essex is because I feel safe here and thank you so much to Essex Rescue for all the services you provide and how you provide them and how confidently I know you will be there when we need you and so I just found your subscription. I will join Gabrielle and do that and share that on social media and in no way shape or form do I think any of us should be questioning when you need to go to Jericho or anywhere else. It's part of how we function in our community and I'm happy to pay my taxes and I look forward to the select board just checking this off and trusting y'all. Thank you very much. Hi thanks Annie. Thanks. Hey any other public comments either in the room? Lorraine come up to the microphone. Is that the say who I am again? Each time do you say? It's Lorraine Zulum. Lorraine Zulum can you hear? Okay a couple things. How do you get designated as an essential service? Is that state level and if it is state level how can we help you do that? Secondly is there an easier way that we can make payment to subscribe because I went to do it the other day and it's a check and can we update that to the 21st century somehow and is also maybe to add on like a giving plan on to the website so when I click on there so that we can if there's someone in need that we can give that as a gift. Thank you. Those are some really great ideas. We are currently working on the online payment system because we have several conflicting the money goes through one area and trying to separate out what they're for without a lot of substantial amount of work so we are working on improving that. I will push more to get that done sooner but that's very helpful. The giving idea is a good idea. I think we struggle with things like that because it's an agreement that has to do with people's insurance and things like that so we travel that road a little bit cautiously because not everybody wants that service. There was one other question or comment you made which has passed me. The essential service question and that's actually really that's national. Nationally emergency medical services are not considered an essential service unlike fire and police and that's just happens to be where we are and I can't explain it. It doesn't make any sense but that's the way it is. The question was how could we help change that? Who can impact that at the national level that we can campaign for? That's a good question. I'm not sure Karen or I will have that answer for you. I will say that the state of Vermont has become heavily involved at the state level both to try and get funding even to pay for our classes for our volunteers who get nothing to do the job but we still have to pay for their education. So they're trying I would say Senator Leahy and pushing it up that way they're all very familiar with this and what Vermont has been trying to do. Yeah we can always get to try and find out where to go with that. All right thank you. Any other board members? Any response to anything that's been said? How much from staff? Okay one quick comment we think you know Colleen and Essex Rescue we did bring to them that it would be nice in the future that we are alerted to any large increases. You now see their path. One other quick comment they have nine full-time employees Essex Fire Department has zero full-time staff. It's just something that we know as well that's coming down the path is that our fire services are not going to be able to do it on volunteers alone so there is a large cost coming to this community about service levels. We cannot just sit here and say okay Essex Rescue but you are a very valuable service we're going to fund you and go up to a per capita level when we have our own fire rescue here that is not at those levels and is having the same problems with having paid-on call volunteers come the same problems with COVID the same problems with service calls and as a community we've wanted places for our elderly to be able to go and transition to and that's nice of being a full service and a full continuum community but the call volumes are increasing and they are using us as their concierge and the rules are really pampering or exacerbating our call volume. You mentioned it yourself your mother has an issue or something they're like oh call the ambulance and they'll take you right to the hospital and the wait times at the hospitals are exorbitant so it's just it's just an endless loop and so I just think that maybe when we get through maybe this budget year we really need a sit-down with our with our emergency services and our local communities about where this is going and so that we're prepared and prioritize it sorry for the long-winded. Thanks Evan. I see one more hand up from the public Gil Allen. Yeah I just wanted to say first start off by saying how fortunate we are as a community to have Colleen as the executive director I've had good fortune of working with her many times as a volunteer at the Burlington Marathon was a first responder in an overturned vehicle where she was on the scene she's one of the most competent clinicians I know and have had the pleasure to work with she's technically not an EMT she's a paramedic I believe right Colleen but we so we are not only fortunate to have her but we are fortunate enough right now to have competent paid staff and this loss of volunteer services is not just our problem it's a growing trend nationally and the other growing trend nationally that's quite frightening is the rate at which not just nurses but EMTs are leaving the field and so right now we are fortunate to have enough staff I understand the impact of the financial cost but if we can afford as a community to keep this operation afloat we need to do everything we can to do so and I'll finish at that. Thanks Gil. All right thank you Colleen and Karen for your time and for your for the discussion we'll move on to the next agenda item thank you yep thank you thanks for coming okay so item on the agenda is update and potential action on speed Vermont route 128 speed study I think there's too many words in there but go ahead is it Dennis talking on this one I'm here can you hear me yes okay thanks yeah I think it was back in October that the board received the petition to look at potentially reducing the speed limit on Vermont 128 I'm not sure it came up at that time but a little bit of research after that there was a study that was done it is a state road and there was a study by the state done about 20 years ago and we had requested at that time that the speed also be reduced out there so before we we suggested to the select board that before we ship the request the state that we do a little bit of work on our own not a total study but enough to determine if it was going to work at all going back to state for a second try at this and so one of my staff engineers Annie went out and put speed counters out and put them out over a couple weeks both on on both approaches it's a combined speed it's not a one-way speed in each direction it was a combined speed but we did find that there is at least some merit to going back the request because the I guess the most eastern speed count we took showed an 85th percentile on the state and actually all transportation speed limit studies put a lot of weight on that was about 42 miles an hour the other one on the western side down on the flat past the bridge was closer to 52 but that being said that in the combination with working with Ron Hogue the police chief we got some some data on accidents which are significant out of that area the state has their own method of calculating high-accident areas I'm going to leave that up to them to determine if it qualifies for that or not but that's based upon both the accidents and the cars that traveled up to the road in any event staff police public works staff recommends back to the select board that you do submit a letter to the state requesting that they take a look at the speed limits out there and also some of the safety issues and some of that could be improved signage um we do have the capability I looked out there there is at least one poll that possibly could get green mountain power to put up another overhead light that might make a difference at that intersection so we're gonna our request is that we will go the light is a town issue that we can go directly to green mountain power but looking at the speech studies the state issue so we prepared a letter for you and our recommendation is that the chair sign it and send it on to the to the state excuse me all right thanks Dennis any any other staff comments comments or questions from the board go ahead I just I was a little confused by that 25 mile power advisory section it I guess what does it mean to be a advisory speed limit and then I'm assuming that that still maintains if the other section drops from 50 to 40 is that how's that how does that work well that's two questions but I'll try to answer the first one advisory the advisory is just an advisory speed limit essentially if a police officer would be out there and you were in that 50 mile an hour zone in the 25 mile an hour zone and exceeding 25 miles an hour it's advisory it's not ticketable as an offense it is ticketable if you're in a 50 mile an hour and you're going 70 so that's the that's the difference between the advisory it's it's meant to advise people that there's a sharp curve we've used a number and there's a number amount on some of our roads to basically let people know that you need to slow down at that particular location because the conditions warrant that on most these roads you do not want speed limits that would drop 50 25 25 50 then go into a 35 mile an hour zone you've got to be consistent with how you set speed limits so it's very common to do that but it is advisory and so a lot of people just basically ignore it but it is what it is the I think it does some value because I think the speed count I'm I'm guessing on this because the data we don't have the data support directional speed limits but I'm guessing people are fairly slow as they go around that corner and they're speeding up after they get past that corner heading either into the town itself you know towards the route 15 intersection or if they're getting ready to go out of town you know they they maybe speed up and then start to slow down around the curve and anybody's driven it for a while understands that you need to go slower on that curve that was the first question unfortunately I forgot the second one no I mean I think you answered it may have come in as two questions but it really was what is what is that advisory speed limit mean and how does that with the recommendation to alter the other speed limit it doesn't have any effect on that advisory speed limit well it may I think the question would be we didn't want to do a traffic study and go to the state and say here's what we think you ought to do it's their road they need to make that decision they need to basically look at the earlier study update it take the data we've got and my guess they'll go and collect more data and see what in fact it needs to be and it is their role to do that not ours so we didn't want to go too far by saying make other changes we do I do think there's some signage changes some simple things that could be done for visibility to help people you know just in terms of how you handle some of the chevrons are on the corner whether they're highly visible well you know in terms of reflectivity or in terms of even lighting them there's a lot of things that can be done that might help improve safety even if the speed limit I mean the speed limit is is always subjective to the driver yes it's a ticketable offense if you're over the speed limit the speed limits are set so that you can drive on the road safely but it's still up the individual driver and we've seen that on our roads where the speed limit may be 35 we put the speed counters out and we've got speed limits hitting 60 you can't control what the driver does but I think that's the best we can do is try to set the speed limit at what the appropriate speed is for that location and condition and then hope expect that people will let's respect it essentially okay thank you all right any other I just would like to thank them for their hard work that was quite the report very thorough yeah yes thank you thank you hello not only in my fire chief but I'm also a resident that drives through that road several times a day and I don't know how I could show this on a camera but I have a picture from September 28th of 2015 and if I might show Mr. Chair what this is what this picture is looking at oh yeah it's a okay yeah I remember that accident that's a sob that's crushed underneath the turn that's here yeah so the speed limit from westward into Essex is 50 miles an hour and it does not slow down as you get to that curve there's a suggested speed that you slow down but there's nothing by law that says you have to so this garbage truck was fully loaded and went around that curve at 45 and crushed the occupant it took us an hour to cut her out so yes something definitely needs to be done on the speed limits and also the markings for that area of the road thank you thanks Charlie yeah there's a hand up in the public another hand up in the public go ahead Margaret hi I'm just wondering if this goes to the state for changes will will there be some notification and a chance to make comments I don't know what the state process is they they will meet and I'm trying to remember back because we haven't done one of these in a very long while and 20 years ago kind of is in the far distant past as far as a lot of these things go I do know that they have a meeting and if they have a meeting of the traffic committee it's got to be publicly announced and I my rough memory says the last time they went through this they did announce when they were going to have the meeting and I think at that particular point we elected not to attend I think we were able to we can find out we can call the back to the various people um because v-trans basically does the work and prepares it to the traffic safety committee and we can see if there is such an opportunity um my quick answer is I don't know I think there is that opportunity but I really don't know it's been too long okay thank you all right thanks Margaret for the question any other questions or comments from the public go ahead I'd like to make a motion that the select board approve the staff recommendation and forward this request for a speed and safety safety study on the section of Vermont route 128 to v-trans second thank you sooth thank you Don any further discussion do we need to have um specifically state that we authorize you to sign a letter or does this do it that's fine okay okay good thanks any other discussion okay all those in favor please say aye aye aye okay motion passes five zero thank you Dennis thank you good night yep thank you all right moving on to the next business item 5e potential action to warn public no sorry 5d work session um fiscal year 2023 budget who's taking this one I am Sarah I'm back thank you sir I miss you guys too how was your Monday how was your one day away from us I don't want to hurt your feelings so I'm gonna not answer thanks Sarah you know I don't have any feelings my heart um Greg if you don't mind I'm just gonna share my screen and go to town okay so picking up the budget where we left off I get your faces on my other screen there we go um last time that we talked about the budget we had um come down from the initial uh request to a 4.6 percent overall bottom line with a 5.4 percent tax levy increase FY 22 to FY 23 um I've left in the memo the nine items that got us there since then um we had a few questions and requests were made one of them we've taken care of this evening with a presentation from s6 rescue um I don't know where we stand about the additional supporting documentation for a requested increase in the health officer pay which is included up above in the first initial round of changes um and then the third adjustment that I've made is we took another look at how we had the finance team staffed and it does appear that we did have some duplication in there so I pulled back about $56,000 um out of the professional services line happy to get some details about that but we basically through the shifting of um titles and duties we have a vacancy that's being held in the upcoming budget year and those funds can either be used to fill that position or to contract professional services to assist with the positions that are existing and so whichever way we go the funding for one or the other is sufficient we don't need both and so there's funding left in there to hold the vacant position ultimately there will need to be six FTEs so that's the route we chose to take um I've also left the fund balance some fund balance use in that finance segment to help offset some of those costs that is actually those are actually all of the changes that I've made from last time to this time andy I did have a quick chance to review um your email earlier during the meeting that you had sent today with some questions about um if we could use fund balance to offset some anticipated custom programming costs to divide up the databases I think that's perfectly reasonable use um and then you had also mentioned that I had mentioned um an increase in audit costs I don't exactly know how much that's going to be that is going to be a forever cost um because what we have right now is the auditors can rely on one set of internal controls testing for one department to do both of the entities and so basically there are their preliminary field work um and their controls testing the town only pays half of what they would for that piece of the audit and the village pays the other half and they'll each have to do separate testing in the future so I don't quite know what the cost is for that um it's it's not going to be significant um but it will be ongoing okay I'd be happy to answer um questions other thoughts that the board members have had since the last time we talked about budget go ahead don okay it's okay and just to fill you in the health officer I've been collecting information on that I have not had a chance yet to really analyze it and make a recommendation so hope to have that to you by the 20th um but do not have it for tonight thank you Greg thanks that wasn't right actually that was one of them but that's good go ahead don I need to make sure the changes that we made under eight and nine Sarah if the fire department okay with those changes all right certainly so just a recap um I reduced we have the initial proposal for the budget had had $100,000 operating transfer to capital for a radio project that touches both fire and police I reduced I pulled that out I reduced it by 90,000 because Charlie and I talked about an increasing contribution for the truck plan and I and I need to keep that going um and then what we did is uh chief call had originally requested two 40 hour per week per DM positions by the time the budget got to the select board that had been pushed down to one starting mid-year um the the feedback from the board at budget day was that that um was an acceptable decision and so I've I've left that at we have left that at one per DM daytime person so 40 hours a week but for the full year and I want to be very clear we didn't we didn't eliminate the radio project um chief chief hoag and chief poll and others are are pulling together a presentation for the joint boards next Monday night um and we have been discussing a method of financing that out of some of the transfers to capital that we made as part of the fund balance assignment um or put you know putting that into the capital plan for the coming year um with other available funding sources besides raising property taxes in FY23 to fund it um we also are anticipating another year with police vacancies that will lead to surplus funds in that costing center for FY22 um and I know that historically we have the board has been open to transferring those some of those funds to capital I think you know as we close out FY22 in the coming months we can look at what those dollars might be and that would be a I think um my thought is assigning those dollars that were raised for public safety purposes that were not sent for that purpose for a public safety capital project would also be another appropriate funding source for for the radio project as a whole so it hasn't just been pulled and shelved um there is just some additional some additional information that needs to be shared as we talk about capital did I answer your question Don? Thank you Sarah yes you're most welcome and I know chief poll is there I don't want to put words in his his mouth but um if he had anything to add not that I'm right but I if he wanted to I'm sure you guys would be okay with it he's walking up to the microphone yes since you asked I'd still like the 80 hours for per diem we really would like 160 but phasing it in in a single year much like the Essex rescue increase is large and hard to hard to fund but 80 hours is reasonable um 40 hours is uh a bare minimum but it does need to start soon we could use it now thank you all right thank you I wanted the board to go through its questions but I wanted to when you guys were done I wanted to ask the chief a question or two so I saw Sue's hand so I'm confused you're deferring yeah okay all right go ahead Sue Hi Sarah I just have a quick question on the uh finance transition project manager and I think it was 56k I don't know whether that was the full amount or partial amount and I my question is is that uh for the full fiscal year part of the fiscal year full time part time what what's the expectation for that position so um I think it won't come as any surprise to hear that things are a little up in the air with finance um and initially um we I was thinking that um through the transition I would move into that role and then transition out other opportunities presented themselves sooner and anticipated for me but that opportunity does involve the potential for me to stay on um like one day a week to serve in this role as as a contracted position and so what we're thinking at the moment is that this would be you know at least through the year it would help to um train and set the departments up for success to move through the transition oh I'm getting I'm getting further away from your question and I can't remember what it is can you remind me please just understanding and and maybe you can't answer because things are still in flux but at the amount that was planned and I don't know whether 56k is the full amount or partial amount um okay I remember that part now part of the question and then it was it is it planned to be a position throughout the full fiscal year it sounds like the answer to that is yes but the question of whether it's full time or part time is still up in the air it's definitely part time um it's a part time that $56,000 is an anticipated um contract rate through a professional services contract with the Vermont League of Cities and Towns um it would be on a limited part time basis um that's about $1,000 a week um to contract those services that we've just been roughly talking about the other option is to fill that vacant position full time if it if it becomes clear quickly that yes we need to we need to staff back up completely or no we can sort of make this work until we have things settled out and then we can hire someone into a different role but I think what it does is is it allows us to maintain the number of participants in finance that we need so ultimately we need you know six full time positions three and three and three we were running with five full full time with some part time help because we were realizing some efficiencies being consolidated so we're moving into we're moving toward that three and three and what we have right now is we have like the full the five full time positions and then this part time position with some additional assistance from Lauren um and we have an intern program that's been very successful um would help to fill some of the gaps and we would be able to evaluate at which point do we we pull back from those professional services from the transition project and fill that hole with that six full time person and so the way the dollars work out is we're budgeting for that six position knowing that that is sufficient to cover the cost of any of the things that I just described plus plus using some fund balance that we had set aside for personnel in prior years to just sort of help offset those costs as we transition and see how things settle out okay thank you that answer your question better yes okay you're welcome any other board member questions had I can't see you anymore oh there you are questions back no um just to to add some clarity to what uh Sarah said before about my email that I had sent her that I'd sent to staff um actually didn't couldn't send it to uh Sarah because I don't know her email anymore which is okay um I still get my a six emails I didn't want to say that out loud but I still get that one it's okay the charter doesn't allow me to speak directly to you anyway so I went through through management but the in in the operating expenses in um in professional services there was a line item that was custom programming requirement for separation for five thousand dollars that was the question I asked whether that could be since it's a one time cost whether it could come from fund balance it won't change the four point two or five point zero numbers it's not a big enough number to move the needle much but at least we're not asking for five thousand dollars that we um are only going to use once it's not headed to the budget so that's what that is and then I also asked about audit costs but since it's not ongoing cost it does make sense to include it in the budget so that's what that was all right so then um you had some questions you wanted I do if you don't mind me asking the chief a couple questions go ahead I would love to ask you all of them at once but I'm not going to so if you could describe the trends of the fire department please that you guys are facing based upon conversations right the trends are that we are much like every other emergency service faced with reduced number of volunteers that are available to answer calls in addition to the reduced number of volunteers were those of us that are still members have reduced availability and that is several employers no longer allow their members to leave during the day or other times to answer serious fire calls so we're left with a critical shortage especially during the workweek daytime case in point this morning we responded to what came in as a furnace room fire at a high occupancy building we put one engine on the road and then we had enough personnel to bring an extra car we didn't have a lot of people um our mutual aid department did not have enough people to send a truck to that call fortunately it was dealt with very quickly and contained to that boiler room and it didn't spread to the rest of the building so although it took us a long time to mitigate that the initial call we were able to control it very quickly but it does if if that had gotten out of that room um we're not alone I know that the board is well aware of the Williston recent media coverage of the Williston fire department they've done a very good job of they hired a outside consultant um but we're all facing that and it's not just Essex it's Essex Junction it's Milton it's Underhill Jericho same thing Underhill Jericho has full-time staff Colchester has full-time staff and they're still hurting for people did you explain paid on call paid on call is you are still a volunteer there's no requirement for you to cover a set ship so it's not like a part-time job where you're working Monday through Friday from eight to noon or from one o'clock to four o'clock or anything like that it's you have a full-time job and when you're done that full-time job and you have some time to spare after family and commitments and coaching your children and going to parent teacher conferences and things uh when fire calls come in you answer them in addition to that we all meet on Monday nights or those of us that can that aren't working and we do training Monday nights from seven to nine and when you answer a fire call you get paid an hourly fee for answering that fire call and right now our average firefighter makes about fifteen dollars an hour to answer that fire call uh last question um please maybe for not only the board but the people at home what are these per diem positions and what are they going to do the per diem positions would be during the work week when we our call volumes are the busiest like right now we run medical first response along with sx rescue and you've already heard from them tonight and i can attest that they are very very busy their demands are high and there are many times where we are waiting for either that primary ambulance to respond from the hospital because they're dropping off a patient there or a backup ambulance coming into sx so our first responders go to the scene we've already this year not responded to 400 calls that we haven't had an ems first responder available to go to that call first so that call has fallen directly to whatever transport ambulance is coming most of the time lately those transport ambulances only have two people on them because they don't have the staff either so it's a struggle for them to provide care and carry that patient out to get to the ambulance i don't know if that completely answered what you were asking about with the per diem staff but that would help us provide coverage during the day in addition to that they would also do administrative functions paperwork making sure we're have supplies shuttling our apparatus for mechanical appointments and things like that plan reviews we've talked recently about getting some life safety ordinances and some impact fees so that we can help keep up with the demands that we're doing for all of the projects that are underway in sx and for enforcement of fire codes that are here thanks chief my grilling is over okay thank you all right so um i guess sarah what you're asking for is actually in the next agenda item right it is unless the board would like to see any other adjustments or changes to the numbers as presented changes and i just so i guess the yeah the next step here would be to warn a public hearing um warning the public hearing doesn't necessarily lock in what we've got right we could still correct exactly changes right up until the point where we open the public hearing or even after during there after the public hearing and the intent of the public hearings to get public input so that we potentially will make changes right um so um should we move to the next agenda item can i ask a question before we move is the number we're looking at 60 million six hundred thousand one hundred and sixty nine dollars yes it is and that has not changed you're welcome okay all right but i'm ready you beat me too all right there's a blank in that in the in the recommended there right all right right just in case you guys had any alterations before we warned the public hearing so um oh i did have one more question about the hearing now can we change the time that you've got listed here that's what i was going to ask to make it probably live because of what we're doing beforehand uh that's an interesting that way we're not late in starting the public hearing question is if we have we have a executive session planned for five thirds at a another topic um wouldn't be a bad idea you know so listed at 635 and if you don't get to it um at least people know that it's coming um you don't have to jump around if you get there earlier we can always start later we can't start earlier right oh okay but do you understand what i mean if we made it say we made it the challenge the challenge is right is if we if we do start the meeting on time we will have to we could potentially be in the middle of another subject and have to stop go back to the public hearing and then return to the other that's the okay but what i'm saying is we're giving you enough we we're giving you two weeks now you could arrange the agenda so that doesn't happen well i'm asking can that be done it's very difficult to predict how long we're gonna talk about any given subject we don't we're not we don't we don't good time efforts i i understand that but how about a compromise at 645 p.m because i mean we don't actually normally start to believe by the time we get through public to be heard and so forth maybe we get to that point i can do that then i all right to make the recommendation that just like board warn a public hearing for the f y 23 general fund budget for the town of estix in the amount of 16 million six hundred thousand one hundred and sixty nine dollars to be held on december 20th at 645 p.m second thank you don thank you sue um you use the word recommendation i think you mean meant motion make the motion that the select board warn a public meeting okay all right all right any other board discussion okay hearing none all those in favor please say aye aye aye opposed any motion passes five zero thank you thank you sarah thanks everybody have a good night thanks sarah thanks for showing up for us all right uh that takes care of uh five e five d and five e moving on to business item five f discussion about potential action in response to a Vermont legislature meeting about municipal map mandates i'll take this one right um it's on your agenda obviously um well at least for some of us that are in local government every day the governor has um my personal opinion done a very nice job with covid up to certain points there was some compromise between the governor and the state legislature about a mass mandate they came to some agreement that municipalities could uh put in a mass mandate um on your uh spaces uh the Vermont league of cities and towns uh gave a model face covering rule guidance uh here one of the things is municipalities can put up their own mass mandate for a period of 45 days uh and could be reconsidered every 30 days um and those mandates could come with a fine or no fine um and so um we here at the town and administration i feel have been proactive most of the covid uh crises and pandemic uh early on we mandated that people coming into our buildings and the village buildings be masked um first and foremost i want to thank the public for respecting that that mandate as well as the 10 people that are in our audience tonight who are all masked um and we didn't have to make you do it um all the uh members here on the dais are masked um and so um that's what's before you you are able to do it uh but tonight since this is sort of a new thing if the this is sort of a discussion do you one want to consider it and two if you're considering it what components would you want and then staff would go back and write it for the next meeting um so that we have the input not only from you but the public and uh we have a good discussion so that we can draft it if that is your desire all right thanks evan um any board member comments in reading this whatever we decide it's it's unenforceable is that correct i guess then we have the chief here it also yeah sure and we can bring up the team it is from everything i've read no matter what we if we set a fine if we set a mandate it's not an an enforceable mandate is that correct i'll let him i'll let him take a crack at it it is enforceable i just want to know i would say it's enforceable it depends on whether you want a fine or not and if there's a fine it so ron hug the chief of police um the answer to that question would be it would be it would depend as to what what you folks decide as you want for a rule um the vlct has given two different models one with a with a enforceable fine which would be a civil ticket or one without a civil fine attached to it and it would simply be a rule that would be given to that would be known to folks you know or announced to folks in the town and this is something that that the town is is is asking very vigorously um to accomplish so it would be up to whatever you folks decide but it was a big up to your your officers if somebody came into a store and didn't have the mask on then would you get a call to enforce the mask mandate and you're sure to staff that would depend on yes that would depend on who called us if the store was to call us or if another citizen called us we would have to prioritize that call along with everything else that were that were tasked to do uh and then when we would respond to that and certainly we would do everything possible we could to avoid having to issue that person an actual ticket to to wear a mask um we would try to try to educate the person first before we issue tickets or anything like that certainly thank you any other board member comments question go ahead sue so my my only concern is that tonight we just um provide the context and then the staff goes back and works it we don't meet again until december 20th um and we're already like this all was approved on the 23rd so just about two weeks ago and we're at a point where covid's escalating and you know i think i mean i do want to hear more from the public um but i don't know i i feel like uh it's it's the kind of thing that requires if we are going to respond that we respond as quickly as we can thanks sue yeah i guess i'll just i don't want to get preachy but i just would like to express my extreme disappointment and a lack of a statewide masking requirement um instead of doing this a blanket one-time thing we are here having the same conversations that are going to be happening in many many many other towns about the same topics about the same issues and at the end of the day it goes back to the same science um so it's it's a little frustrating to have to sit here and have this conversation as well as the 200 plus other towns in vermont um instead of just doing this the easy and logical way um and just to give some background december 1st 2020 there were 102 positive cases 28 hospitalizations two in the icu december 1st 2021 604 positive cases 76 hospitalizations 23 in the icu um it's clear to me that something needs to happen um but again the short staffing issue and you know is it appropriate for our police to be our officers to be the mask police um i think we have to start somewhere and i think that we need to move forward with this thanks tracy that go ahead thanks andy um for transparency um i was the one who formally requested that we put this on the agenda for this meeting um much for as the excuse me as tracy just mentioned um because i saw the numbers i was incredibly concerned and the governor has given this power to the local select boards to make that decision i agree a statewide mandate would be much better but that option has not been presented to us i'm certainly sympathetic um we know and have sat here for years um about police and staffing issues and the goal obviously is to make your rather to teach um to encourage enforcement and you know ideally ticketing would be the last step um i agree with sue that i think that we have the ability to discuss it now tonight and come up with a set of pretty simple rules to enact instead of waiting until not just the 20th but then we may want some leeway for that rule to go into effect um irie would uh propose just as a starting point um relatively simple 25 50 100 dollar fee ticket fees um and then perhaps half of that for a wave because as uh we receive an email we know that it would cost us a lot of money to send a police officer to a ticket hearing if it was contested um keeping the wave fee relatively low so that we don't necessarily have to do that i think would be encouraging would still allow us to enforce um and i would recommend two caveats to the rule children under two would not need to be masked and then i would also propose something similar to what berlington did um with restaurants and bars um obviously masking in the middle of a meal is extremely difficult um so the compromise was that if staff and those entering um can prove vaccination status then masks are not required in eateries or bars um basically just a way to ensure that everyone is vaccinated who's going to be there potentially exposing the public um i think with those basically three kind of key points um you know ticketing and a structure for it uh under two and the restaurant and bar situation i think that covers us in most of the situations that i could imagine coming forward um i did count i have 29 emails in my mailbox for the mask mandate and won against well they were 29 individual citizens who it's so not including yeah replies and forwards and everything um so i think that's you know at least it seems to me pretty clear what our public wants um i appreciate and understand the want for staff to write this up but honestly i just i don't think it's necessary and i think time is critical here um we are out of icu beds in the state if we can prevent on death by doing this early then i would prefer us to do that that's all i have to say thanks pat i need to know what a wave fee is sorry um in it with civil ticketing in vermont there's usually a fine for a civil violation and then as there is a waiver fee that's usually less if you decide to waive your right to a hearing you can pay that lesser fine and not contest it thank you so um i think there's maybe three things we need to decide here one is first whether to go forward tonight i think there's um a lot of people expressing significant urgency with regard to wanting to do that um that's that's you know that's a decision another is what the exceptions are i know um pat you and mentioned a couple of them there is a you know the vlct has this proposed language um and in their in their exceptions they also include possibly including the uh inclusion of a person with disability who cannot wear a face covering or cannot safely wear a face covering for reasons related to the disability uh a person for whom wearing a face covering would create a risk to workplace health safety or job duty as determined by the workplace risk assessment and any person while eating or drinking inside an establishment that serves food or beverage um and i know uh pat you had you had mentioned the the the potentially an a alternative to that where someone could a restaurant owner could require all um patrons to prove um i've gone to honey road i had to show my my uh vaccination card to get in um a couple weeks ago so yeah there are there are businesses where actively doing that in burlington um as as an option for this as well one thing that that's not mentioned here is i don't know about places of worship um whether we want to go into into those kind of that kind of detail or not it's not recommended by the lct but it is the first bullet says face coverings are not required for any person officiating or participating in a religious service or activity um and where i'm looking at their model face covering section four exceptions oh hey look at that there's a different one than the one i downloaded these things keep changing the living document the living document yeah okay so then oh gee i wish i had that one i wonder what else is different uh it's the offers part of the challenge of doing this a uh is that the one that's in the packet then all right i downloaded this from their website earlier they may have must have updated it since all right then good okay that is in there then um and so then the other decision right is whether to include enforcement there's two versions one with and without enforcement and then i guess the fourth decision there if there is enforcement what the fines are um in the waiver amounts um i guess the ramifications yeah i pat you mentioned that if a uh officer needs to go to uh court it's it's uh a couple hours several hours of overtime pay and also unavailability of that officer right that's correct yes um the other the other the other there's also a trespass option so so currently any any organization can mandate mass inside their inside their facility if they control that facility so what would what it has been happening is if it is a big business owner wants right now to have a mass mandate inside their business they simply post that if they choose to not have someone in their business they can ask that person to leave and at that point they if the person refuses of course they're going to call the police and we're going to come and ask them to leave um if they refuse to leave at that point they have been noticed that they're they're trespassing and they can be arrested and we'll say that that's very problematic because our our state's attorney currently is not prosecuting trespass notice right so so the trespass really has nothing to do with the rule that you're considering however that's just another option that would happen and you know since if we're talking about fines once we issue a ticket to someone that's not necessarily forcing that person to leave that establishment or or uh forcing them to put that mask on they can continue to receive another ticket but there again we're talking about civil fines so at some point it would become a trespass and at that point we would then would then worry about making a criminal arrest my concern with that is that we're exposing our police department and our police officers making a criminal arrest for a misdemeanor violation that's most likely not going to be prosecuted right all right so the alternative of doing a a mask mandate without enforcement and counting on the the trespass is not is not going to go anywhere that that would be my opinion is no yeah okay all right so what what's the pleasure of the board here do we want to we could have a very lengthy conversation or discussion listening to public input or we could guess we should right we definitely I don't I think we've public input is Patrick said we've we've heard a lot we've heard we ever have heard a lot and I I think as Sue said we need to do something tonight and not wait and I think it's got to be a our decision yep oh yeah we'll be we will be yeah we'll be our decision but yeah I just and I think that I mean unless everybody wants to hear more from what we've already heard emailized before we proceed I don't well I mean the only thing that I would say is you know people did come to this meeting to provide input the people that emailed us were saying we can't make it tonight so so I maybe we just somehow limit the amount of time each input so I see I see seven hands up online um if you yeah go ahead go ahead question um about the I had a question regarding why we would specifically break out religious services um and in I I know this wasn't in the in the packet when it was posted so I just wanted to make sure that my reasoning was was sound it does say if temporary exceptions are made for wearing a face covering for a secular activity and the same exception must be made for its comparable religious counterpart so I'm assuming that that's speaking to um receiving communion needing to take off your mask to eat and drink am I correct in that assumption I had given had not given any thought but it seems like a same assumption that seems okay one of the reasons one could do that right I think for the audience at home the the guidance is if you have a rule for secular meaning non-religious you should also balance that for the sec you know for religious reasons I don't foresee us going into houses of worship to um do certain things unless for whatever reason they call us yeah which I'm gonna assume chief is on the very rare right side certainly here's here's what I will say to that certainly the police department is not going to be enforcing this like we would speeding laws we're not going to be sitting sitting places and monitoring people for wearing masks we do not have time for that we do not have the interest in doing that my concerns with this are our couple of fold number one is the time commitment that we've already talked about is following up on complaints and being able to answer complaints in in a timely manner the second is putting officers in the position where they may may have to use force at some point to work to make a person comply with the using this using a mask um or at that point it would be a trespass or a disorderly conduct or some kind of criminal violation um I do not want to see that like I said we will do everything that we can to avoid having to get to that point or even issuing a ticket altogether I think there's many other options that we would have before that but that certainly is a possibility as we all know this is a very volatile issue and some people are very very opinionated when it comes to this so so chief just for clarification if if there's an enforcement if we do go with the enforcement route with fines and so forth can anyone call anyone could call us just like they could call it someone is speeding on their road or if they saw another criminal violation or something like that anyone could call us and and in the trespass case so lowly you're not recommending it it would be the property owner the property owner would have to issue or trespass nor is there any that's correct unless it's a town-owned building right um the the property owner would have to issue that verbal verbal or written trespass notice to that person in order for us to enforce that yeah yes yeah so that's it yeah okay so there's a difference difference with regard to who would be potentially calling um the the the you know the initial um contact again in either case is education attempt to educate right um and in this rule the rule that is that has been specced out by the lcg also doesn't do anything for businesses it doesn't it doesn't mandate that a business post signs or anything like that this is directly on individuals board member discussion i'm good for public comment okay um so i was starting to ask i see seven hands up online if you are attending online and wish to speak uh on this topic could you raise your hand now so i can see how many are likely to want to speak um ironically the number is getting smaller in the yeah i'm gonna look up in a moment i put my glasses on and look up in a moment here i'm just i'm just directing my comments here and if there are anybody in the room who'd like to speak thank you i see uh one two three i think there's four back there thank you chief hidden behind somebody's head um okay so i've got well people who'd like to uh to to speak um again because this is uh it's it's past 8 30 and we're about halfway through our agenda tonight um and we're probably going to have a lot of discussion uh beyond uh hearing public input please keep your comments brief i may if you start circling around and repeating yourself i'll ask you to wrap up if someone if you're agreeing with someone who has spoken before you please just say that you agree with them rather than um uh repeating uh material that's already been covered um please be be courteous um um what should i say and again again i may i may ask you to wrap up if you're uh going on for a long time and uh i'm gonna start here in the room tanya you want to speak thank you tanya behovsky um so i did want to bring up a couple points just because this bill did come through my committee and i did vote on it the disability exemptions are a requirement um they're protected glasses um and we as we were doing research for this bill and a statewide bill we did find that there was no precedent for religious exemption other than for the allowance of stuff like you said tracy like taking communion um and my under i also just wanted to clarify that the a fine is not required it is an optional choice many towns are enacting this with no enforcement um just because the social science shows that if you have a rule people are more likely to follow it um and my under the statewide mandate last year also did not utilize a fine and we did see a much greater uptick in masking um so i just wanted to put those pieces out there just bringing from my committee and then i did have a couple of um thoughts and questions um so burlington has much more wide practice of mandating vaccinations in their businesses um than i have seen here in sx and with this piecemeal approach that we're already taking being as we've acknowledged less than what we really need i worry about adding more piecemeal bits into it um and i wonder if rather than exempting restaurants and creating sort of more confusion about where i have to and where i don't if we utilize the same policy we did last year when we reopened and still had a mask mandate of having people be able to be unmasked while seated and masked while moving through the restaurant if that might make more sense and be less confusing um i am also curious if there were any instances of use of force regarding the statewide mandate that was in place until june of this year if that's something that has actually happened did okay i i was just curious if that was something that happened um and then i'm wondering if this mandate would require that businesses post the masking requirement i know i was in burlington today and every business has now posted a little sign saying that this is now required um i'm just looking real quick because i tried to take notes so i would be quick i that is all i have but i'm also happy to answer any questions if they come up just in terms of of this mandate as it came through the legislature but i did want to make those those clarifications because i did have access to legislative counsel to tell me what we can and can't do so thank you so much great thank you thank you yeah i saw a hand um who else had their hand up back there all three of them in that room somebody from the back row come on up yep there we go let's try to go this way across the room but it works you're the right person hello i'm eve dbf and uh from sorry for my sex um i am a professor at uvm i'm a coach at sx i school for the cross country ski team and um i'm also uniquely qualified to talk to talk about covid i have been doing covid research since the very beginning i was on sabbatical in france when that happened and i was enrolled in a massive study to try to sterilize mask because we were out of mask and so on in france since then i my project right now funded by an h is to determine model to define models to assess transmissibility in indoor spaces so therefore i talk routinely with epidemiologists doctors i understand as much as i can how covid works how and and my knowledge is fluid dynamics my expertise is fluid dynamics so i know everything we can about aerosols and how they transport in the in the room i did not bring my co2 sensor typically i typically have my co2 sensor to assess the ventilation of the room i forgot but this is my expertise i work with sx i school with this with the district not high school with the entire district to figure out what we could do to keep the school safe i have extended my uh services to this board to provide a presentation to really explain what we are facing as you know new Hampshire today announced they are out of icu bed not 80 percent out i could a lot of us at uvm and elsewhere looked in this may this summer when nothing was happening we knew delta was coming we knew that the vaccine efficacy were waning we knew we need boosters we knew vaccinated people would die if we didn't do anything we predicted it that where we where we are right now so we have to act there is no no two ways about it we just look around the world countries that are going with mask mandates are feeling much better even in the u.s states that have adopted mask mandate are doing much better than we are we used to be the best and now we are in the bottom five we have vax promoters who died they don't need to die and i'm sorry the death by covid is a horrible death i don't want to hear anyone say oh what they were going to die well there are different ways the quality of life is important so mask mandate should be data driven and i am extremely sorry that you are put in that position you don't have a staff already period logist to help you with that the cdc offers guideline it's all about reducing the transmissibility mask mandate and this is why i was totally against lifting the mask mandate in june because it should be data driven you when you get underneath the threshold mask out of above the threshold mask are back up so this is where we are i extend my services again i'm stretched thin but i will make the time i'm you know the same way that i've spent a lot of time making air purifiers for the schools that i will probably remake for the next semester and um i think that's it's about what i had to say okay thank you see next back there hi everybody my name is brian sheldon and i'm i live in sx uh thank you chair watch for this opportunity to speak um i i i speak today to ask that the select board implement the mask mandate for in indoor spaces as brolington and bradabara have already done um miss delphia spoke to i won't repeat her numbers but our numbers are five times higher than they were on this day a year ago and that's with that's with over 80 percent of them for monitors vaccinated um we know that um we know it's time to add back masks as a mitigation technique um we know it worked because we did in 2020 and it worked um the professor dbf talked about um talked about data driven that's a data point that we had that we there was much less transmission when there was mass mandate in place i also wanted to share a story from shopping here in sx um yesterday my my partner wanted to go to turn her toys to get gifts um as we walked in um a gentleman without a mask uh followed us in i mean and the staffer politely said look we're we're requiring masks in our indoor spaces um staffer put your gentlemen uh instead of getting angry leaving the man apologized uh reached into his pocket and put on a mask um he didn't um he what i don't i don't think that there's a um a big chance of belligerence here in in in sx on this in this area um personally i thank the staffer for i'm taking that stance um i um i would have if if um they did not enforce their own rules i would have turned around and left myself but instead i ended up spending $100 in the store um so i want if you're getting if you're getting uh comments from sx business business owners worrying that they're going to be losing customers i would say the opposite is true um they're establishing this in sx that didn't enforce the governor's mandate uh mass mandate in during 2020 um i remember where they are and i don't and i don't do business with them now um so um and i'm sure that i'm not the only one um so let's make sx a bastion for safety um we'll save lives while making sx um a safe place to to shop to live and to learn that's a win-win i asked this board to implement an indoor mass mandate um with penalties um and it does not exempt um religious services thank you and thanks ryan was there another hand back there yeah hi my name is alexis dbf i am the wife of eve dbf just for clarity uh i am a resident i'm a business owner i am also a middle school track coach and an elementary school volunteer and a parent and i am so relieved to hear that you guys are understanding the urgency of this moment and that there is not a push to push this out until december 22 we are desperately late desperately this needed to happen months ago so again i don't want to recap what obviously you all know and i'm thrilled that we are all on the same page here um you know we are blowing through record cases hospitalizations we got a record high icu today our case numbers doubled in the month of november and the rate of doubling has been accelerating starting in june a bad day in june with six cases a day now we are over 600 at the rate that we are growing we will be doubled again before christmas there is no time to put this down or work through you know the verbiage and i understand that that creates an enormously stressful compressed time frame for a board that does not typically work at that pace and like tanya i am very disappointed in our governor that this was asked of you it never should have been um there is no time to wait i will come back to the fact that our hospitals are overwhelmed they are turning icu they are making icu beds out of surgical beds they are postponing hundreds of medical procedures there is no room for more six people and more sick people are coming because there is a lagging indicator which is first comes cases then come hospitalizations then deaths so the record high cases we are seeing last weekend this week those numbers have not flowed into the hospital yet it the worst is yet to come i would also encourage you to have a very clear guidance around a mask mandate i would encourage you to include religious services there was a super spreader events in virgins last christmas 80 cases linked to one person high aerosol emitting environments happen in churches things like singing things like chanting you produce more aerosols you put more virus into the air there's a lot of you know crowded indoor spaces in churches a mask mandate that includes the church is going to keep the entire community safer i will also say that studies suggest that a community needs at least 70 percent to wear masks to see significant drops in spread last year when we had a mask mandate according to the vt department of health 85 percent of remanters wore a mask routinely when inside we had very good compliance with very little if any enforcement that i know of so we need 70 percent currently according to a study from karni gmail and 35 percent of remanters are masking we are well below the threshold to see the benefit in terms of reducing community spread so i also know that you are tasked to re-up this policy every 30 days unfortunately and that also adds to your complexity and the amount of job that you have to do and i'm very sorry about that i would strongly encourage you to get this policy in place communicated throughout the entire community prior to the holidays and to re-up this every month till april as eve mentioned the cdc gives guidance for a data-driven policy where the masks come off when certain thresholds are met i will tell you that where we are at today is so far above the threshold we we passed the threshold for the cdc whl and aap in august there is no chance that we are going to come below that before april which is why i'm not worried about it but as an ongoing issue having a data-driven policy where cases determine our behavior would be the best evidence-based approach moving forward thank you for your time thank you loren you didn't put your hand up before yeah well you can you can you can certainly share your comments whenever you can outside okay so i'm going to go online uh gill allen yeah i just want to thank the uh select board for inviting public comment um i would pretty much reiterate everything the person that preceded me uh just said um i'm the director of critical care at the hospital i've been the director of clinical operations for covid precautions for the past two years it has literally ruled my life i worked two nights in the icu saturday night and sunday night i'm watching young healthy people die of this disease every day and it's painful i'm not speaking for the hospital i'm speaking as a clinician um and a concerned citizen um we are way past the point of needing mask mandates in this community um i personally feel that i feel that enforcement is probably going to be a waste of time i think the importance of a mandate is just how it set an example and sent a message to our community the first time around um i think we have to be very careful about how we message this to our community if we decide to do it that is going to be probably one of the most important and difficult tasks of the select board committee um and making sure that there is buy-in and people understand why this is happening and i would i would state it as such as a mandate but i would also back it up with some of the rationale the data that uh tracy mentioned um the fact that we are running out of icu beds as somebody who is managing our icu beds every day in this hospital uh we are running out and here's another interesting tidbit that i think i can bring to this group that people probably haven't considered and last season we had the first season in the last 20 years of my career that we did not see influenza in our hospitals we had zero influenza in our icus and that's because people were masked all the time it was it was an amazing phenomenon and if we add influenza and rsv on top of the covid that we're seeing right now we are going to have an epic disaster on our hands so the mask mandates are not only important for covid they're important to prevent the spread of influenza there's been already sporadic reported cases in vermont and that's got me scared um and then i'll just say i'll just uh reinforce what was said before if we're going to try and uh message this i would ask people to think of this not as a mandate but as a call to duty for our citizens to do what they can to help protect the members of their community and help protect our healthcare workers and keep them safe and keep them sane they are demoralized by what they are seeing they have worked tirelessly for the last two years and they are seeing people die and they are seeing people that can't get into icus and get procedures that they need because there our icu beds are taken up by unvaccinated covid patients so we have we we have to stop it on that front as well and then i'll just really quickly put a plug in for the religious exemption i get pulling your mask down for communion that makes sense but uh you know making a full exemption for religious gatherings uh will basically undo anything you do with a mandate because the biggest outbreaks we've had in the state have all traced back to funerals weddings and religious gatherings so it's it's just going to be a not a useful effort if we do that um and i think i've said everything i needed to say thank you for this opportunity to speak folks and thanks gill uh richard smiles yes thank you board members i so appreciate the work that you're doing here i'll be very brief i agree with the sentiments that have been stated by other people both my wife and i respectfully ask you to create a mask mandate and do it as expeditiously as possible and again my thanks okay thanks richard uh gabriell smith oh no sorry i'm sorry uh annie cooper's next thank you uh andy um like like i'd like to thank the board for allowing public to be heard on this matter um chasey delphia thank you i'd like to thank chasey delphia for presenting um data as she has and um i agree wholeheartedly that it is truly unfortunate that this is happening all across our state and not from the governor and the department of health as it should and i am grateful patrick that you brought this to our table um we are so fortunate to have alexis and um i'm sorry i can't pronounce you's last name very well first name very well in their last name debiith and gill al and i would ask this elect board to please take some time to reach out to them while you're making these decisions to get um more advice when needed they are so professional and so knowledgeable we are so fortunate i agree with everything they all said and i agree with mr. smile's uh request for it to be expedited um we can't do it soon enough we're we're late and but we're here we're late but we're here and i'm i'm so proud of us for being here thank you all right thanks annie uh gabriell smith hi thanks annie um uh ditto so much of what we've already been said um i came into this meeting tonight uh wanting to see um an enforcement and a fine um but it seems that um there's really a lot of wisdom in not doing that so i'm going to go and encourage the board not to do that both because as um dr allen said we um that isn't really going to be efficacious in getting us where we want to go and also um you know i think that we will see the response from uh from citizens um because it is a mandate um so um i i would urge you to consider that i myself began unmasking when the mask mandate came off um i'm vaccinated i got a breakthrough case of covet um got my mask back on but that's too late right um and thankfully i did not end up taking up an icu bed so um i think that we all need to be responsible in addition to being vaccinated as for restaurants i don't think it's confusing at all um i've been going to burlington for dinner um frequently and i don't have any issue with showing my vaccination card i would only add that staff be um trained that it has to be not only a vaccination card but you have to show your id um doesn't do any good for me to show you a picture of a vaccination card that could take a picture of anybody's card if they would let me um and um i'm sorry one more thing but i'm not going to take up your time with that so um i again just really appreciate you all are moving this forward tonight um and for that for all of our health um i appreciate that you're doing this and hopefully coming to a decision this evening thank you thanks gabrielle all right hi andy thanks and thanks for the board for taking this up i'm just going to echo um everything um that gill ellen said um even alexis debuth um and everyone else um and tracy thank you for bringing some facts to the table tonight patrick thanks for bringing this up um i'll just echo though everybody said pretty much what i was going to say so i'll just echo gabrielle here and say um that the um vaccination requirements for eating should be part of this um we're had this been done three or four months ago two or three months ago and we weren't in the place we are we might have been able to get away with that without it but i think we're where we are we probably should if we're going to unmask for food and drink we should have to prove vaccination status this is largely unvaccinated people driving this right now i think it's a 70-30 split somewhere in there so it it would behoove us to to consider that i think um expeditious uh as as you can make this is also um a request as well thanks very much good luck okay thanks rod david scoping yes uh david scoping and my wife natalie brown over my shoulder here having uh worked in the icu as a respiratory therapist 20 years ago um i i just it's difficult for me to even go there the thought of what these folks have to uh busy night my busy night is nothing like what their busy night is and the thought of that we're not doing enough and putting healthcare workers and people at risk in harm's way is just i will say nothing else i i know you're going to do the right thing thank you very much for your time okay thanks you david uh nate o'connor hi everyone i uh i bought us just thank the board i don't know how you do these long meetings without a restroom break i shut off my camera for a second and we took one but i really thank you and i want to thank the first responders uh specifically uh uh chief hogan the fire department and our rescue teams um i'm speaking as a son of someone who lost my dad on 12 4 2020 to covid as part of the elderwood outbreak um and that was not fun and it was before vaccines were available and it was before uh masks were really a compliant you know a thing and um he also was a 91 year old man who uh didn't like his nose itched from the mask so uh you know it it was a tough thing i also speak as a scientist i've spent a lot of time in biosafety level labs uh i know that masks aren't dangerous and that they they stop the spread of contagious so i really encourage the strong following of the science and data and really i would love a sturdy and swift kind of decision on this um also one that doesn't put our first responders and undo danger um i know that's a balancing act but um you know part of the power of science i'd i'd follow i'd recommend following science um is that it adapts and changes and watch those recommendations the ctc website is updated regularly and has some amazing information on it so um i just i'm really glad you've taken this up tonight and thank you thanks for your comments nate and i'm very sorry for your loss i uh i worry about my mom every day okay diane clements good evening um i will echo all the speakers before me is doing an excellent job at letting you know that community health and common sense should go hand in hand here um thank you quite frankly after getting my flu shot that i don't want the flu um that was enough so i want to ask you that uh well thank god for the shot because the flu would probably would take me out um i will say that um we need to be considered of others we need to think about the community we need to think about our kids everybody wants them in school and the only way they're going to be in school is if they get their shots and if we wear masks so that they don't get sick so let's think of everybody and pass this mandate in town to keep everybody safe including all those people who are overwhelmed at the hospitals thanks thank you diane uh susanne laurence hi um i'm susanne laurence your resident of the town also a physical therapist for 41 years a researcher and specifically translational research with covet 19 and in particular long covet and i echo and support everything that's been said and strongly urge the board to take action i think our community our children and our healthcare workers are at high risk people are exhausted and i think it's time thank you thank you susanne hey those were uh all of the um allowed all the folks to speak who indicated at the beginning that they would like to speak so bring it back to tanya did you have more you wanted to say go ahead i just wanted to make tanya behovsky um i wanted to make a quick clarification of what this policy allows this policy allows only for a mask mandate you we don't have the ability under this policy to mandate that businesses require proof of vaccination so when i said it about being confusing how am i to know which business actually checked a vaccine card and which one didn't and so by making it widespread that you don't wear them while eating and do wear them while moving about it doesn't allow for as much wiggle room given that we actually can't require a business require proof of vaccination so i just wanted to clarify what this policy actually allows us to do thank you thanks thanks tanya okay and bring it back to the board um now lorraine you did want to say something personal sorry i know i didn't raise my hand before lorraine's alum ron thank you for being here um and thank you patrick for bringing this to the board i just really appreciate that on a personal level i work in an all-male industry i'm the only woman in the office well working remotely now but my experience has been over the last couple weeks we got covid and um slowly one by one we lost staff um so the other part piece of this to me is economics for businesses this is we we lost money it's a profit margin thing too so what uh when i spoke to i took the courage up to say something to them today because it was clear i was the only nerd wearing a mask at work and i was always kind of a nudgy one but um what they said today when i i read that it was 0.4 percent transmission rate only if everyone is masked in a room that was announced two days ago by the national sciences of united states of america and so and it it said it could be even a flimsy mask it didn't have to be a good mask so that's an astounding piece of information and when i shared that with them today it was interesting because one of the feedback pieces that i got was i wish other people would wear masks too i can't get my clients to do it we're herd animals if we see other people doing it we do it i know for me it's very uncomfortable if i'm the only one in the room that puts a mask on i feel like an idiot so i think really we don't necessarily need the the fines or anything like that it really is as the gentleman said before it really is about doing the right thing for our neighbors for our businesses for each other for the hospitals for our police because i want to protect you as well and they think that everyone's pretty much on board so and i echo what everyone said back there so i appreciate you guys doing this thank you thanks learning all right now i'm going to bring it back to the board um what do we want to do patrick has his hand up patrick go ahead no problem i actually have a clarifying question for tanya the how is it that burlington has passed their ordinance around restaurants then i mean i guess i'm not seeing yet they do not mandate that restaurants show proof of vaccination it's restaurant by restaurant and business by business so some businesses require it and some businesses do not okay i guess maybe i'm mistaken and what i read about how burlington implemented theirs because it seemed like it was pretty specific so burlington's policy says that if the restaurant requires proof of vaccination then a mask is not required and this is where the confusion arises is how do we know from the outside which restaurants actually are requiring is someone checking so what it effectively does is it exempts restaurants from having the the mask mandate while in there it is not it's not saying that restaurants must mandate vaccination and thus don't need a mask it's saying if they mandate vaccination you don't need a mask so it sort of adds another layer of this piecemeal policy as opposed to just utilizing what we did last year when we opened the economy and we had a mask mandate and we said if you're moving about the restaurant have your mask on if you're sitting down and eating you do not that doesn't say that businesses cannot issue a mask mandate but that's up to the individual business does that help answer the question yeah absolutely thank you sure thing it's not it's not all restaurants it's it's allows the option of a restaurant to unmask every allow everybody to unmask if they grew okay got you all right so uh we're we're back to the the questions here i guess that do we want to have i guess i don't know where we want to start we want to start with enforcement do we want to have can i take a stab at this and maybe maybe now we can go from there sure um i i'd like to make the motion that the extra select board representing the town of estix pass the mandatory mask mandate to cover all persons over the age of two all businesses in house of worship that this mandate be done by voluntary compliance and not enforcement to review to be reviewed every 30 days and to be put into effect by december 10th well i actually that's the start it's a good start i think the the we have the opportunity for the first he's fit to be so we have a motion on the floor do you want to second it then we have discussion or sorry that was a motion right yes yeah i'll second it for discussion okay thanks tracy so go ahead the 44 just that i was just going to say that we have the option for the first mandate to be 45 days and i think i'm sorry i missed that okay i have no problem with that but we still have to review it within 30 days right now the first is 45 maybe that's why i got my 30 so the way that it is written is that for the first stretch of time it can be 45 days and once you reach the 45 days it must then be reviewed every 30 days thereafter so your first review would be at 45 days you're right or or sooner or because yeah i have to fit the exact date right so you said december 10th today's the uh sixth why not today because we have to get the word out to people that we're doing that don't i mean i'm assuming we have to let the businesses the house everybody know that we've passed this before we can i mean grander everybody here knows that we do it tonight but the rest of the town you can set a date you can set a date or we can be immediate right yeah the way the way the route i read the ruling is it can be immediate okay dlct guidance uh it says that the rule must be posted in at least five conspicuous places in town it must be published with a newspaper of general circulation on a day not more than 14 days after the slide for his vote so it could be moral so we can make it effective any day we want and and provide the announcement post that date i was just trying to give everybody enough time to get there yeah yeah yeah i try come on i'm sorry you know it depends on whether you think 24 48 72 is up so proof so time you might want to just stay up here so i guess the pieces that you have in there you you you you've suggested uh non-enforcement uh you've you've included houses of worship in the in the in the mandate you excluded anybody under two years old do we also need to include specifically or explicitly disability you do the 88 does require that and the vls the league of cities and towns language around that is specifically what legislative council gave us um that you know anyone who can't wear it right i'm sorry i just i just thought that was an automatic assumption so i can all right oh boy all right i have my hand up as well oh yeah go ahead pat don't worry um i i would prefer a degree of civil enforcement um even again with the waivers provided i just think that i mean i agree i think most people will probably accept this mandate as it is but i do think that there could potentially be some problematic individuals and i'd prefer to have the tool in our toolbox if we are making the rules around it now um i just you know but to me it seems like being a little bit overly cautious with it um be there out i would rather go planning if if we were to make initially an unenforceable mandate can we alter that yeah with the next yes you could okay yeah that's what i was wondering that was one of the same questions yeah we can modify it in the future can anybody else have any thoughts about enforcement or you see or are there comments i guess i was thinking the same thing about enforcement but i had a different question so patrick brought up the the he's just in favor of enforcement and so i understand that yeah your point's very good that we could if we have an issue could revisit this and add an enforcement i think it's more important that we get this done and get this done now rather than focusing on enforcement because we can add that piece in later right um if it you know we have large non-compliance or we need it did you have another comment too yeah i wanted to ask um don did did your motion include persons while eating or drinking and seated inside any establishment that serves food or beverage and included all businesses i didn't get i can add this as an exception motion got really long all of a sudden your people wait okay i can do that um because i may have a simpler right go ahead way to do it there is a model face covering rule non-enforcement in our packet um so i would suggest replacing your motion with that and then just listing your exceptions from the ones that are already in the model policy uh the whole this whole thing that you're asking me to no the in the uh about where your your right thumb was your left thumb sorry there's a there's two sections there's two bullets there one is the the place of worship exception which i think we're not going to include no okay and then the uh go under two a person with a disability okay yep is that the language around all places open to the public that's the language we used i believe in the bill that came out of the legislature was all establishments open to the public uh i'm not sure we used that language okay i just wasn't sure if that's the language you were pointing to because that is a little simpler if i may so it does say that here so maybe maybe maybe what the the maybe the i'm good this is the exemption i got it okay or or maybe the the the motion should be to use the uh the the non-enforced model suggested by uh vlct with the exclusion of the religious uh uh and to be clear that's what i was asking don if she would like to replace her motion to with this one which is fine as long as we set a date of when it starts yep i have no problem with that yep go ahead good so i'm gonna go ahead and offer a friendly amendment um or a replacement why don't i just withdraw okay cool um so at this time mr chairman i'd like to withdraw my initial motion for discussion thank you okay so i'm going to make a motion that the select board approve the model face covering rule non-enforcement that's in our packet specific to the town of essics um with the following exceptions children under two years old person with a disability who cannot wear a face covering or cannot safely wear a face covering for reasons related to the disability any person who is seated while eating or drinking inside any establishment that serves food or beverage and i think that covers what we've talked about and i would actually like this to go into effect tomorrow and that's no enforcement is that what that said correct thank you i'll second um thank you tracy thank you sue uh you skipped over the section this sentence that says a person for whom wearing a face covering would create a risk to work workplace health safety or job duty as determined by the workplace risk assessment should that also be in there osha does require that then we'll have that okay because osha all right with an effective date of tomorrow tomorrow and since there's no enforcement it we don't need to talk about we could notify we can post we couldn't start educating this will this will be out on social media tonight i'm sure hey any other any other comments there was uh that had suggested the additional language of allowing restaurants that and i know tanya you're kind of advising against it because of the complexity of it of allowing restaurants that that ask for proof of vaccination to um not require masking indoors that we don't want to go there sue i i think that's i i do think it's a confusion factor especially because you know are you requiring one vaccine two vaccines a booster you know we'd have to be specific about that and over time you know make adjustments there my my my opinion is to not include that right yeah i agree actually okay we're going to revisit this anyway thanks back thanks back okay um we have a motion and a second uh we did modify or you see were you okay with adding the extra required language um that's required yes friendly amendment yeah okay um that wasn't right original initially um any any comments from staff no i think okay we'll have to follow the requirements for announcing it we've been within 14 days of today so we've got we'll be talking about the requirements and the postings tomorrow morning okay okay oh feel free to reach out as well if there's any way it can be helpful i thought you were going to be here at eight oh sorry i actually have to be in mump he'll hear tomorrow but feel free to give me a call or email and i'm more than happy to to help um ron one concern might be that the question of first nation needed i i understand not including the exemption for religious services however i think the way that it's written at least in vlct's guidance is that um it is allowed for temporary removal of face covering so that a person can participate in that is that current is that staying in the version that is being considered so we did not explicitly include that uh what does participate i have taken personal experience them and for my church we all wear masks except for communion right that's the only time to take it out the only time what's the month so i i guess do we need to be explicit about that tanya or is that considered eating and drinking and in the establishment my understanding from my conversation um with legislative council is that there is no precedent for religious exemption so that it there's no precedent it doesn't mean that someone couldn't challenge it but there is not a precedent for explicitly stating that um it certainly you can but you don't we don't think you have to okay okay all right thanks for raising the question should we uh one thing that we mentioned earlier was a requirement for businesses to post this requirement um so i would also amend this motion um under section three requirement at a sentence at the end that states all businesses shall prominently display this requirement at their entrance is that is that clear for staff do we do we need to provide uh specific language around that for them to use i don't think you have to i think and i think it's pretty readily available so i think i think you can but i don't think you have to um i'm certainly happy to to reach out to some of the other towns that have enacted it and and find out what if they provided specific language and and offer it to staff if they'd like it okay okay you okay with that sue i accept that adding the adding the businesses must display okay uh do we need to define what a business is no hope not get too far into the weeds here yes you are well and right before that it says at locations that are open to the locations open to the public right exactly perfect okay okay all right um remove the question so sorry sorry i'm just i'm just we said we said businesses are there places that are open to the public that are not businesses that should be well replace businesses with locations and i think that covers it and businesses is a church isn't that is it it's a church of business i don't know what people would look at it that way establishments establishments open to the public it all establishments covered under by under this rule okay establishments covered under this rule you okay with that sue okay now that we've modified this a number of times i just don't want to get it wrong i'm sorry i mean if it's going to elongate the i'll just remove it and we can formulate some language that's acceptable to everyone and amend down the line if folks would i'm just i mean there's a way to make it smoothly with this all individuals in the town of sx shall wear face coverings while indoors at locations that are open to the public these same locations that are open to the public must display at what you know what you ultimately i think the intent is clear yeah and i yeah so i'm confused as to where we're at do we want on business the posting requirement in there or not at this point i think we should i say yes okay all right i guess what i'm saying is i'm thought staff has heard what we're saying they understand our intent i think i don't think that we need to word smith you don't need to pick all the words for it come up with final language right here all right yep thank you for that okay any other discussion okay all those in favor please say aye aye opposed okay motion passes five zero thank you so much thank you tanya thank you for all the comments thank you all public thank you everyone thank you for wearing masks okay thank you chief yes chief thank you tanya thanks tanya very very helpful very happy you were here okay so moving on to business item 5g consider request to amend the challenge charter with a recall provision um good evening rad rad kennison on behalf of 18 voters in the town of essix and numerous others that have expressed uh support i am presenting to the select board a proposal to amend the town charter to include a recall provision i have a significant amount of factual data information in my presentation so the proposal to amend the essix town charter by adding a recall provision of an elected town officer if uh greg can you bring that up or do you have it on your uh screen it describes the conditions and procedures of the recall process sections a and d describe the key thresholds a petition signed by not less than 10 of the registered voters and d the named elected town officer shall be removed if at least two-thirds majority cast their vote for recall there are currently 15 vermont towns with recall language in their charter over vermont's long history the recall provision has only been used twice it was first used in winzer in 2003 and in under hill in 2021 the language in the proposed essix recall provision was drafted after careful review of all 15 charters speaking with the town clerks in each town conversations with the secretary of state's office and analyzing the recall process in winzer and under hill so let's take a close look at the recall language in winzer the first um the first threshold is a petition signed by not less than 15 of the registered voters and the second the official shall be removed only if at least one-third of the registered voters of the town vote and the majority of those voting for removal excuse me brad can you wait till we find it please sure the winzer was not at the top of your mind if i'm moving too fast okay thank you okay that now let's look at process if you scroll down to the vote tally it's down a little bit further the first threshold of 15 percent of registered voters was met to place a recall vote on ballot the second threshold of at least one-third of registered voters or 1000 voters was not met even though 77 percent voted in favor of recall less than 700 uh votes were cast in this case the recall effort failed when only 23 percent of the registered voters cast ballots in the case of under hill that'd be the next one the first threshold is a written petition that is signed by not less than 15 percent of registered voters in the second threshold when the petition is approved by a majority of ballots cast so the first threshold of 15 percent of registered voters was met to place the recall vote on the ballot it required only two months i mean it required nearly two months to gather those signatures the second threshold was a simple majority of votes cast the final tally was 570 in favor and 23 opposed or 96 percent as occurred in windsor only 23 percent of the registered voters cast ballots so what can we learn from both of these recalls and how can that be applied to craft the language for the sx recall provision in both windsor and under hill voters overwhelmingly favored recall but with low voter turnout the town clerks i spoke with confirmed single issue or special elections invariably have low voter turnout sx has 16400 registered voters and of that number approximately 1500 are challenge voters leaving 14900 likely voters and i can explain that shortly the first threshold in the proposed recall the sx recall is 10 of registered voters or 1640 petition signatures to put that into context it is twice what was required for their merger revote this past spring or to petition this provision to be placed on the march ballot both of those would only require five percent of registered voters signatures the second threshold is a two-thirds majority of votes cast it isn't tied to registered voters for the reason of challenge voters on the checklist and it clearly shows voter consensus in the case of the merger 7,785 votes were cast or approximately 47 percent in the first vote and 8,539 in the second about 52 percent generally speaking in an annual election there are multiple issues and candidates which draw a greater number of voters especially when there is a hot button issue like the merger a single issue special election would most likely attract far less attention and fewer voters as occurred in both Windsor and under hill elections i believe that i believe the proposed language and thresholds strike the right balance it would require a significant effort by the petitioner to obtain needed signatures in the cause for recall significant enough for voters to overwhelmingly recall so i mentioned i would explain challenge voters according to the town clerk most are voters on the checklist that have moved and not verified their new address when the town clerk receives a Vermont property transfer transfer tax return they send out a request to the seller if there is no response the voter is kept on the checklist for two election cycles which is equivalent to four years after i had submitted this proposal on Wednesday to the select board i was able to locate the house and senate government operations committee deliberations on h445 the under hill charter recall i listened to those over the weekend and would like to share some of the comments made by members that may influence your decision and perhaps make a slight amendment to this proposal in the house government operations committee deliberations basically the question was is there anything significant or unique about 15 percent of registered voters and legislative counsel tucker anderson said no you might be thinking of the requirement of 15 percent is used for ordinance reconsideration votes there was a motion by representative peter anthony and a second by sx rep tanya bohosky and it was voted out a committee on a vote of 10 zero and one unchanged in the senate there's a question about um majority and sharewoman senator white said although if if it only one by one vote it still passes just as when we are elected we win by one vote we still win just as in the sx select board election last march between elaine haney and tracy delphia after the recount tracy won by nine votes so there is a case to be made for a simple majority so if there was one change to be made um i would consider simple majority versus two-thirds happy entertaining questions i guess just to it wasn't nine it was actually two pardon me after the recount for my race it was two votes oh okay thank you i was i didn't go back and look i was just my recollection well i remember thanks thanks for the correction it was close all i know is it was very close i guess i would ask what is the real purpose of this proposal is only going to impact the select board because they're the only elected people that it will affect well um i think it's a an accountability clause um voters have the privilege and the responsibility to elect their town officials but presently that we have no um recourse if there is an action by an official and if in a real democracy voters should have a chance to weigh in on that and they feel strongly enough that there's an egregious action by a town official they should be able to exercise that as you pass get his hand up too so in fact go ahead thanks andy uh i do have a couple of questions um it's a pretty small number we have over 250 towns and villages in vermont so i guess i'm wondering you did much like don mentioned this seems like it's the answer to a question that has not been asked um i just i'm curious about the specificity of it why you feel that that sx needs it when the vast majority of towns in vermont do not um the second is that if you're proposing a simple majority is that from what i've read in most of the other towns already 10 percent is the lowest record petition signature i didn't see any lower than 15 however on the examples you provided for the number of signatures on a ballot and then you also are proposing changing tonight to a simple majority um many of the ones that you have presented have two thirds and i think that is largely because the recalls or the need to recall is usually for serious issues by making it a simple majority and by lowering the threshold for the number of petitions it seems like that's just a way to get rid of somebody that people don't like um that's not really what a recall is for um we've seen this relatively recently in our country in california um which costs them millions upon millions of dollars for a recall that was doomed basically from the start um from the sheer number of people who voted to keep their governor we would not be in a completely different situation it would cost a town of sx uh obviously money to do this so i just wanted honestly i would like to see a reason if we had had a select board member who you know for some reason you know chose either to completely ignore all their constituents by flipping over the table at meetings i think that would be you know obviously an issue that needs a solution um i have not seen that and honestly any of the representatives that we have here um so uh i apologize i asked a couple of questions in there um if i can distill it down yeah more specifically why sx when so few vermont towns have these rules and to why so we why are the requirements so weak compared even to the examples that you've given us first to answer your first question um if you read in the packet there were numerous articles in there about towns where they had issues with town officials and they then had to go through the um process of petitioning to put it on the ballot to get recall language into their charter um i would refer to see that the language is in our charter not wait until and if someday in the future there is an an issue does that answer the first question uh sure yeah okay um every town that does have a recall provision has slightly different language and and that's why i provided all 15 to give you an idea of what other towns um have in their charter um because of the size of our town the um the difficulty of getting signatures on uh a petition i mean five five percent is required for most all petitions this is 10 percent this is twice the six that's 1640 votes or excuse me signatures that's a that would take a considerable effort and i don't think anyone would attempt that unless it was a pretty serious offense i'm not sure that i agree with that second statement um but i understand the first um i would say that i would prefer to see language that would be more in line with either 15 to 30 percent um like the uh other examples that have happened across from on in my opinion okay i i don't think that having those kind of numbers i think it would just be words on paper i don't think it would you want something that's not easy but it's attainable and and i discounted like eight of them because the because the thresholds are so high that it wouldn't be attainable so i i chose what i thought was reasonable but not easy so did you yeah i have just a question um so it sounds like there was an assumption made that this only applies to the select select board but the wording that is in there is any elected town officer doesn't that apply to beyond isn't there like isn't the town moderator elected moderator any elected town official any any any so what about the school board is that the school board we're in a unified school district so we have three different districts so that doesn't apply and they have their own charter i just thought the way it was where it was kind of vague in terms of who it applies so that yeah we can't can't it can't include town if uh excuse me um school board members the school board directors so part of the reason we've we've asked the bread to come here is there's two options for us one is we could say go away and come back with a petition and force us to do this if we don't want to take it up in that case we have no say in the language or we can say yes we want to go forward and we can craft the language however we want based on any public input that we get or our own opinions or our own um it's an awkward thing to be putting together a process for eliminating one of your own members um in fact in the most recent example in underhill the only successful actually the only successful recall ever in history was done in underhill where it was a it was an issue the the the petition there was a petition to do the charter change and followed by the the vote and so it was a started right at the beginning with the whole progression as a different scissors and lead thing um so i guess the the one question that we need to ask ourselves is do we want to take this up or are not um one of the reasons they have it at this meeting is the the date to warn this is late to warn whatever's on town meeting ballot is at the end of january so we only have a couple meetings between now and then if we want to take this up and put it on that ballot and not potentially have a special have to have a special election to address this question if it comes as a petition because it could come as a petition with only five percent of the vote right just a question since we were talking about the um the vote to to reconsider the topic of merger i know part of the standard i'm sorry part of the standard um for that reconsideration would it would have it would have had to pass with two-thirds of those who voted voting in the affirmative um so that's sort of a protection to against a single issue vote and 500 people showing up and overturning someone's election to a position uh was there any thought in including that sort of a provision that already exists in the reconsideration language i am i maybe we're getting a little mixed up there's no consideration in this uh proposal right not for elected officials but that language around you know protecting against 500 people showing up and casting a ballot and someone being recalled um that language and that standard of the two-thirds already exists in the reconsideration language um as was needed to be meant for merger to pass on reconsideration um i i i'm just curious if any thought was given to including that sort of a provision as an added protection again against like 500 people a thousand people showing up and recalling a person that was elected by 6000 so in um a number of towns um it some of the languages that as many voters that voted in the election to elect the official initially had to vote yep well that happened in an annual election where you have multiple issues multiple candidates generally on the ballot so there's it draws a greater number of voters versus a single issue um special election which generally draws fewer uh voters just like in under hill and winzer where 23 percent of the voters registered voters voted in the reason so that's that's why if you're overturning basically the decision of in my example 6000 people i think you should have a standard that needs to be met so that you have a representative sample of those members who elected that person just food for thought yeah there's a there's a right the there's a complication though that if we mail ballots to everybody for town meeting which is when select board members are voted and then you have a special election and you choose not to mail them you'll never have enough enough votes to satisfy that criteria so it's a we're in a weird situation where now we're allowed to mail ballots and probably often will for our bigger elections but for a special election like this i don't think we would want to spend 20 thousand dollars to to send out ballots for for for a recall uh especially since people that were being recalled um so yeah so i guess yeah this is a this is a this also ties into uh the fact that there's a potential for separation in which case our population will be cut in approximately but it's all relative and so then so then your your your assertion that it's difficult to get 10 percent you know it's it's it's going to be difficult enough to get 10 percent changes because that's only a thousand there's only 200 more than you need to get one today so i'm a little i'm i'm i'm leery of going with with with 10 percent but i guess i guess uh the the more fundamental question is do we do we want to do this for one and the other is do we want to control the language um we don't want to do it and we don't want to control the language because you say brad go good luck getting signatures five percent and we'll we'll we'll hope that you get them by the end of january it won't happen probably by the by the deadline but um right so that's it was certainly happened by the next election well the the the concern is i think within a certain number of days of getting the petition from you we have to have an election right i think it's within 60 days and we're seeing the petition so would have the so if you give us the petition in april we've got to have a so is it better to have it in conjunction with the annual election or is it better to have spend the money or a special election yeah just the thought yeah i'll ask a question how how important is this to be on this ballot day versus working on the issue in a timely thoughtful manner and making a thoughtful push to put it on next year's not this coming march but the following march after it's been thought through reviewed and and it's a compromise versus and the reason why i put this on the ballot was exactly that it's now the middle of december i have no idea how many signatures he had but you know we had other things to talk about and we're on deadline for a few other issues do we ask the select board to work with this group and come up with some language maybe by a committee or some group and come back have a discussion and then put it on for a future agenda that's assuming that it's brought directly to back to the select board because if it's by by by petition then you can't change the language and it goes to the voters right is that oh and by the way it can and then the select board first of all then it i mean i'm first of all then it goes down to the state and the state could kick it out for whatever reason they want second uh the following year the select board could come back with a new provision and put in whatever they want and get enough votes and move it out so i'm doing a friendly if it's important to the community or the and or others do you want to work something that that makes sense where everybody is is comfortable with language and thresholds because i'm going to tell you something it does we if we do mail out 14 000 ballots and we have to get poll workers and we have to do things it better be a serious infraction exactly to remove somebody and that's where language matters exactly i agree i agree it shouldn't be easy and then it's only been used twice in the in vermont's history and and for good reason but um you know i'm and i'm well i'm more than happy to work uh on on it with whoever um our town attorney wants to know he sent me what issue are we trying to solve i think i explained that i i don't want your explanation yeah yeah i i don't i would rather have it in the language then to have something happen and then have to go through like it will take at least a year uh to to to uh you know to get the petition and get it on the ballot and go through the legislative process um but as i explained in both you know this the this the house and the government operations committee little discussion about it perfectly happy pat passed unanimously through both onto the legislature that was for that was under hills and theirs was 15 for the signatures and a simple majority so i was just so evan's using the word importance and rather than i i think like what is the urgency and i i i heard your answers and and i i know you want to put something in place so that we have it if it's needed but to evan's point we have a lot of things that are time boxed that are on our plate right now and in order to do this correctly it would be nice to not have it have unnecessary urgency yeah i was actually not going to say this but i know that i've i've mentioned previously about having a standard charter change committee um to work with residents to get public feedback to draft this language um i feel it would be more appropriate and i i know we're not supposed to be talking about adding more stuff um so i'm sorry uh but i i think it would be more appropriate rather than us being directly involved in crafting language that could eventually you know we could weaken or dilute language that could have the potential of affecting us directly um i see that is sort of a little bit of a gray area and i would rather have a separate entity work to create language to make a recommendation to us um because i don't i'm not particularly comfortable with crafting language that could either strengthen or weaken a tool that could be used to recall my election if that makes sense i'm not sure it's appropriate which is where a secondary body making a recommendation to the select board would would come in handy and what would that committee look like any other committee made up of residents we have a wealth of knowledge in our community with attorneys lawyers paralegals folks who have municipal backgrounds folks who are involved in blct women in government organizations of that sort also having connections with other municipalities such as under hill um be able to talk about the pros of the cons and not take a chunk of meeting not that this isn't a worthwhile cause i'm not debating the the that the the the importance for the whatever um but just being able to devote more time to actually crafting language um and making a formal recommendation um with formal public input if that does that answer your question sure yeah absolutely i'm more than happy to to work on it i'd be part of that i think i've done a lot of research and i think i can lend some yeah i've i'm glad you brought that up tracy i was debating whether to go there as well as the question of whether we should have a there are there are communities that have charter committees that that look at what other municipalities have in their charters that we might benefit from and and and pursue them because we don't we don't spend a lot of time doing that right and that's and i and i know exactly what tracy said when we don't want to be adding workload so um so there are a couple hands up in the public do we want to go listen to public comment now um any comments in the room i mean when i come up Irene renner thanks to brad for pushing my buttons and getting me to think differently i never thought that i would see the day when we could vote people off this island those who drafted our town charter did not include a recall provision it's not the vermont way is it i mean relationships have always mattered here in a place where you'd eventually wind up making a casserole for ailing for your ailing neighbor or they would pull your car out of the mud with their tractor you couldn't afford to get all mean and nasty about mere political differences but times have changed and social media has been a big part of that change civility can no longer be taken for granted in a town the size of essics or in a smaller town like underhill where they passed a recall addition to their charter in march and then voted to actually recall a misbehaving member of their select board just a few months ago recall as i understand it is not to punish a member for speaking up for a marginalized part of this community recall is not to isolate a member for being assertive or for being reclusive or any other personality trait they bring to this table but recall is a way i've come to understand for voters to admit that they were misled it's a curative action similar to the way the staff and select board can make mistakes with tangible reproductions as happened in 2016 we were then advised by our attorney to make a motion and vote to cure that entire mess thereby absolving the town of liability if not guilt this year's phenomenon of an phenomenon of an elected official feeling emboldened rather than ashamed after being caught in a texting trist that vilified his own constituents has pushed me from no way on recall to the side of yes please it is time the voters have a way to cure their mistakes as daunting as these actual corrections will be to ascertain because not every elected official who breaches the public trust has the common sense and the good grace to bow out when they've crossed the line of indecency it is time that voters have a recall option as part of the essex town charter i'd like tracy's suggestion to form a committee and i hope that it would be done promptly as to evan's concern about timing there are general elections in april of 2022 and november of 2022 we can do this and we can do it before march of 2023 thanks so much for your time thanks iran uh annie cooper hi thanks andy um it's quite a curious uh curious uh presentation um not presentation uh i don't mean presentation in that sense i'm in the presentation of the idea um it's a curious list of people that signed it and it's interesting to say the least i um i would very much like to be part of the committee that works on this i think that would be intriguing and interesting and certainly lively um i do agree that having this in place uh several years ago to recall iran ran and when she was in the condom that the middle school would have gone over uh quite well so i i see i see the validity in it but also i don't know i don't love it um i'm sure a lot of people would like to have this on the school board right now and have this katie recall i think it's interesting as a topical conversation i also think that voting and having a say in our community is important and um if it turns into a circus of vote and recall and vote and recall we're not doing our community uh a service i appreciate the discussion and thank you for your time thanks annie arland smith yeah andy um i don't know if you can answer this for me or not but i i believe that there's protocols built right into um i don't know what you want to call it rules and regulations for the way that um uh select board members so if they were to do something egregious uh something horrible uh detrimental to the town so on and so forth there are ways for somebody on the select board without a recall by the voters to be removed if they are actually doing damage is that a correct statement no no there's not there's not there's no the only option there's no way to remove somebody there is not okay the only option is to wait for their term to end and vote vote somebody else in okay which leads me to my next point um and and i commend the gentleman for putting together all the data that he did um but the data could also be looked at a different way of 250 towns in the state of vermont only four of them have the charter or 14 of them have uh have the charter um it's only been tried twice and it's only been successful once and i believe that's in the history of vermont if if i understood that correctly um my concern would be because every person is only on the board for three years there one vote amongst five um the amount of damage that they can do to the community is minimal on their own um and they have a three-year term and if they're not doing or serving the voters in a way that they should then obviously they should never be reelected again um which goes back to the voters hands putting this provision in there as we discuss um could lead to several what i would call witch hunts which could be extremely expensive to the town over years um to put special votes together um because somebody may have said something or did something that that we didn't like um and that we didn't see as proper in their position um but their terms going to end a maximum of three years i mean if they were foolish enough to do something right out of the gate it's a three-year three-year wait period they cannot do a tremendous amount of damage if this gentleman is is um true that he's not in a hurry um could the petition be worded in a way that he chooses when it would be put onto the ballot so he could if if it takes him a while to do it if he misses this coming march does there have to be a special election or could he choose if could could the actual petition be worded that it will fall on the next whichever vote is coming up that we're going to have to pay for anyways um i personally don't see a need for this i think the data that he presented kind of proves that there's no real need for this i do understand under some extreme weird circumstances that maybe it could be a legitimate tool but so unlikely and i'm more concerned with it being used to the witch hunt tool um and costing the taxpayers a lot of money for those so those are my concerns and i would be interested if somebody would know if that petition could be written in such a way that there would not be a special election required to vote on it thank you harlan i don't think the wording of a petition could override state statute so i don't think there's any way to um to to collect signatures turn it in and say don't don't don't bother reacting to it for another for several months um and and the other thing i don't know is if there's an expiration on signatures i know some of these many of the communities have a a 30 day or 40 day or 60 day period that um signatures can be collected in if if the oldest signature is older than 30 days the whole petition is invalid um those kind of things so i don't know if there's a standard for that for a petition that would come you know if you collect all the signatures and then sit on it for nine months i don't know if it if they explain her or not i don't know what they're i don't know what the if there's anything there but i but no but harlan does specifically ask your question i do not believe that the wording of a petition can override state statute okay i would just hope that the group that is that has put this forward if they truly feel that this is just some protection that they would like to see further down the road um if you decide to send it back to them which is which would be my recommendation is to go get the petition put the wording in and let's see how it all shakes out uh that they would time it properly to get on the um next planned vote so that they're not actually costing the taxpayers a tremendous amount of money for a special vote um and i know that would be tricky um but as he was speaking to begin with that uh the process shouldn't be easy uh it should probably be complicated and even this piece of it should probably be complicated to bring it forward um unfortunately and nothing against him and i understand his point and i understand that there could potentially somewhere's down the line be an absolute need for it um i think it's a i think it's a slippery slope and i think the data that he presented if you read it a different way um doesn't support the need for it so my two cents thank you all right thanks harlan uh ali serta hello thank you um i have two points one is um this kind of consideration this is really serious stuff um you know you're basically talking about a process that would undo the will of a majority of voters within our community um and i think to do that that's this is our democratic process right so to undo that i think it has to have a very high bar so i'm not saying i wouldn't be unwilling to consider a recall process but i will tell you i will expect it to be very laid out that uh you know 15 percent i'd go higher than that and i will say in this community it's not hard to get that if if the will of the people want it thank you annie cooper for a second vote on merger it can be done in a very short time frame um but i would say i want to know what we could recall people for i don't want i don't like that person i i want it to be an egregious offense i want it to be something that reaches a certain level that could be you know really offensive uh and not just somebody's opinion about what is truly offensive and i think that needs time and i think you need the community to come together and decide what that what that looks like i'm not into arbitrary numbers and i'm not into arbitrary standards of conduct so that's my two cents thank you and thanks alise uh eddie davis um yes hi i look at this objectively on two sides on both sides of the fence in the beginning when he said you know when he was when uh he was talking about um you know well we're trying to do this as a preventative thing so the next time around you know um if somebody does something egregious will be prepared it's like um the reason i'm on both sides of the fence is because you guys know how i feel about running at saxon hill it's like listen years and years and years us hunters have been you know we haven't shot anybody you're it's like you're saying you want to put a preventative ordinance in eight one when no one's been shot you know well they have actually uh eight year you know the professor but my point is it's that kind of logic that i have to learn that all the signs on saxon hill they say wear orange i wear my orange and i i'm having faith that i'm not going to get shot but do we wait until someone gets shot that's what i'm trying to say on both sides of the fence here is i agree with tracy that tracy was saying listen the people six thousand people elected us we've got a really good select board we're very qualified and they're doing great there's nothing's wrong all these other towns nothing's wrong only in the 14 towns that he spoke about they're putting this on so i'm looking at it on both sides of the fence do we wait till someone gets shot and then put it in or i mean he needs to think about that because there's two sides to the coin here and right now we have a great select board that people voted for all right thanks patty i'm gonna bring it back to the board do we want to guess there's a couple options here right um do we want to try to push forward and develop language for town meeting do we want to uh tell tell brad to go find a petition to bring it back to us which could have an arbitrary date for a staff to vote um do we want to ask town staff to establish a committee to look at not only this potentially other charter provisions or admit to this you have thoughts you know i think we've got a lot on our plate right now i think it would be potentially challenging to uh and and i i i agree with what tracy said about the it's it's it's challenging for us to come up with language around how to remove one of us um the the under hill select board explicitly chose not to craft their own language because of that i mean i like the idea of the third option best i think that that gets us to the right the right answer but i i also am sensitive to the fact that our town staff is also right very extended right now adding another committee if you formed a charter committee does it have to it doesn't have to be town staff does it it could be however you chose if the select board forms a committee it has to follow all open meeting laws and so you have to have meeting minutes you have to i got that but warnings and all the all the support around it i understand that part but does it say you have to have the managers and the assistant managers and the financial director on that committee or could you just have a committee that follows the same rules made up of what i'm saying brad a select board primer or try to however you want to make your committee up but not have to burden the actual paid town staff with it isn't it could you legally do that for cheat wrong don't have to have to legally be on a committee but what we do is support that committee even if we're not at the meeting um we're typically the ones who are sending out the notices making sure things are posted online um tracking down minutes to get those posted those procedural things that are required by law or the ones making sure those are i got that but what i'm saying is if they formed a charter committee Greg they they decided to have five or eight or seven however many people and they work on whatever they want to present for charter changes they could do that as a committee without you having to be involved at that point is that correct until if the committee's appointed by the select board right they have to follow open meeting law right so we have to staff right have to make sure that they do the postings get the minutes done get the agendas out that's where staff support comes in i don't know if that answers your question they don't need to participate that's my thing you don't need to actually be at the meeting is what i'm trying to say they could meet without you being present as long as they followed the but there's a lot of things that go into getting a meeting set up making and then follow yeah i know i know nothing like sitting for three hours right and a half right now i'm just saying i if we could want to move this forward to a committee i just didn't want to add anything else to the town employees that's all i'm sure if i could i don't know what other communities do with a charter committee maybe they meet once a year for a couple of hours maybe it's twice a year we could certainly look into something like that and see what some other communities do in that realm it's up to you guys um i just given there's so much i i mean we talk about is i don't know what somebody you get elected you get elected for three years a lot can happen in three years it may be something you want to look at i'm just saying that at this particular time it is late in the calendar if there's an ability to work with the idea instead of trying to get it done by the middle of january when we have other things on the thing do you want to do that and work with the petitioner that's up to you the other the other thing that such a committee would need is a lot of legal advice so i think it would be a expense associated with it so that's the other thing that we haven't necessarily gone for our budgeting either so that's where there's a little bit of some some rub is in there too rad did you want me to comment could it be put on the november ballot if uh um in conjunction with the the election in november so that you didn't incur the cost and then that gives time to work on uh language and if that was the case if you could do that you know i would not you know push a petition but be happy to work with whoever whatever group or it's on language and hopefully be able to present something for the november and the opportunities for a voter town meeting school budget vote and even numbered years november that we could get something on about right without adding an additional election so yeah you know yeah because i wouldn't want to see this drag on for another year or two if possible right so um i guess the best opportunity thing to do would be here to make a make a proposal well i don't know the quick go ahead go ahead racy um hearing that about november would be what would meet what you're looking for if i heard you correctly november that november 2022 would would be amenable to what you're hoping to do i'm i'm sorry i can't i'm i thought i just heard you say that november 2022 yes the the next election um after town meeting day would be an acceptable time frame sure i mean if if this is too short of time and in you as a board feel that we need to spend more time on the language and how it's going to impact the community and getting you know just uh i'm willing to work with a group and um postpone it to november instead of trying to push a petition to force the issue yeah and so what i would like to propose is that we could have staff look into other towns that have charter committees see how often they meet what the scope is of what they work on and bring it back to us um as as feedback to inform our decision going forward whether it be you know to set up a standard committee or go down another path right and that path could be to tell you to go get signatures for a petition and ask you to please not to cause an an extra election i mean any i see just doesn't say that what tracy just said isn't committing us to put in the other committee and choosing to work with you on the language but it's clear we need more information before we sort of choose your own adventure i mean committee could bring it to the select board board in in anticipation of november right yeah and the select board could say nah we don't like that language and we passed the november election you know and then you know i don't want to see that happen so and would want to work with the committee get it to the select board um to make a decision well before that deadline understood so i'm happy to work with you and work a little for staff a lot better than marge yeah okay so um thank you brad thanks the board for the discussion and uh let's brudge on okay thank you very much appreciate your time thanks brad thank you okay so business item 5h discussion and potential action on tentative agreements about shared services between town of sx and the sx junction so what do we do here i i uh wasn't here for the last meeting this was discussed but let's see are there any further changes in the mlu that anybody needs to wants to bring up for any comments on the language that's in the packet any of them yeah are you specifically asking about the mlu uh typically we've gone through them um document by document but i think you guys did you did you finish this i guess on uh this meeting um there's no there's no no i think they just accepted the changes that okay all right the bill has accepted the proposed changes and that's what was left the only one question is there's no shared services financial shared financial services agreement anymore right yep there's that still coming i think brad said it's coming on yeah before that's meeting on monday okay so anything we need to discuss about on like on the mlu all right then the the uh delinquent tax agreement that changed to the tax collection agreement when it's gone back to the delinquent tax agreement and all of the language about who's collecting taxes has been removed um which i'm fine with um i kind of have a uh any any concerns on this so pat i'm currently looking at the document i'm not seeing if your hands up so if you have a if you have a comment go ahead and make it uh yeah all right yeah i'll i'll speak up but no i don't i think we we went through this and with uh some explanation last week um you know about exactly how the money's collected and everything it just we felt i think we ended up on a place where most of us were okay with it in the language so this is what they're coming at or rather this is you know the result of that um but by and large i don't have any issues with as it is okay how about it any concerns anybody have any i have a couple so for the delinquent tax agreement i don't see an end date or ability to amend should we need it um i thought we were going to be consistent and have that language in each agreement but that was my only comment okay so end date and um modification any other comments on delinquent tax it so i have a couple so uh item number three at the top of well it's on the top of my page two um this i think the um trustees changed the wording um from caused by their access to same to the data acquisition efforts and i know that they were kind of struggling with how to represent it and that kind of got put in there i my opinion is a data acquisition efforts is is a narrow piece of what's happening and it should be something broader like technology migration efforts if if if they're not comfortable with the access piece i hesitate to say it but um it's not really it's the caused by that's the issue um so it almost seems like damage to town infrastructure stemming from their access to same because that could be anything related to the migration but i understand what the intent in the what that means okay so your suggestion is to change uh data acquisition to technology migration efforts to make it a broader umbrella since data acquisition is only is one specific thing right and then Tracy you're suggesting caused by to be stemming from yeah i mean either or i think it means the same thing i'm just giving another option in case one is more acceptable than the other should i keep going i have a couple go ahead go ahead um item number six on the bottom of page two i think this was added in if this contract requires an extension the party shall not unreasonably deny the extension and i don't know whether that came from legal or not but that seemed very vague to me yeah i was wondering about that language i i thought that what they i think that that was the trustees request um if i remember correctly from our last session and i think that it was mostly because they were concerned that you know if it did take them some extra time that they didn't uh or rather they were they were concerned if it took them time that you know a different select board might basically shut the door on them say you know we didn't agree to this um so it's gone this far but now we're stopping um maybe maybe that should be within the right of a future select board um but it's the language i think that they wanted just to be on the page that we're not going to you know if they need past june 30th for some reason 2023 that we're not or the select board isn't going to deny them um i don't know whether or not needs to be in here or not it's just but yeah i understand the intent i'm just concerned that it reads in a very subjective way than rather than an object objective way to say you know if if that future select board does not agree to extend it how do they define what how does uh the trustees or the the city um define whether that's reasonable or unreasonable and is that a leak i'm not a lawyer so i don't know is that a legal legal term that has some teeth to it or is that something that's subjective i think they'll might be on the line yeah the yellow line there well doesn't that second line there sue anyway the it's agreement may be amended or modified by mutual written agreement of the parties wouldn't that cover if that goes over that's an item item number seven right which i had another question on that that used to be item number 13 but i didn't know why it moved to i'd like what the significance was of it moving so we can ask bill about that language and that they unreasonably denying and i think i think i've heard bill use that language but bill's on the line he is on the line hey bill hi so bill there's question about uh in the it agreement uh section six there was some language added by the trustees um that says that the parties shall not unreasonably deny an extension if it's needed is that you know i've seen language like that for instance in connection with an assignment of an agreement usually says that you can't assign the agreement without the consent of your counterparty and the consent won't be unreasonably withheld condition or delayed and it's um if there is a reasonable basis for withholding your consent that's all you need but if you're just doing it out of spite out of spite or in bad faith that's not reason so i it's it's not i wouldn't reword it a little bit but that's uh the concept is is not foreign to me okay so so how would you reword it a little bit so it's more Greg you want to pull it up number six yep yeah there you i can i can propose some language and circulate it tomorrow or the next day so the agreement terminates on June 30th 2023 and then the concept is if we require an extension the town's consent is required and said consent will not be unreasonably withheld condition or delayed let me work on that that sounds good the following question is question number seven does that reflect the same intent that was language that was added in i think because somebody wanted to have language in there about amending the agreement and the discussion we had the last time was let's move it up uh from where it was originally which was at the end yeah and so i think that allows you to amend the agreement before it ends oh okay the other talks about extension that's all my my items all right anything else on it all right uh police services done this one a lot i don't see any changes in this no we finalized or effectively finalized it yeah okay and then there's a memo from brad saying that we should expect to see um some additional agreements uh or does it say that there's some clarification in here uh that i had asked for about the clerk and treasurer and it's it's the the way it's stated in here also it it is stated this way in their charter is that the they're asking the town to continue providing all the same services they've been providing during what they're called their transition year and then at the end of that transition year the clerk and treasurer functions would likely separate um unless another agreement is put in place also this uh i thought is there another memo finance he's suggesting that we have a clerk and treasurer's agreement as well sure you can do that and one's going to be a city clerk and one's going to be a town clerk yeah so andy weren't weren't here for this discussion but tracy actually um provided some like good context about i'll let you what were the words that you right not getting down to the leaf level yep yeah i did i did read that so i think this is an intent to have things at the is it the forest level i would call this the tree level tree level um i just i had some questions on the finance piece and and maybe maybe if this maybe i'm taking it down to the leaf level but um the the the line if there are shared finance non-personnel related expenses each municipality is responsible for 50 of the costs so i think since we're saying that i think we need to understand what those shared finance non-personnel related expenses what falls into that bucket um and given that that next line that that both finance departments are going to be at 81 main trade i assume that part of that is the facilities and and indirect facilities everything yeah okay so okay all right so he's gonna he's i think he's gonna come in with with amended an amended finance agreement that includes the bullets he's listed here is that yeah i mean finance we know obviously needs to be reworked so it's it's coming i'm assuming the point of this memo is just to give us some advance notice of what's going to be in it but until we get the actual agreement in front of us i don't know how much we can really accomplish with it right okay and then the last item is about shared boards commissions and committees the housing commission is is definitely a shared one the economic development commission although it's fully appointed by the town has worked in both but i don't know if that's the intent moving forward i don't think that's a question for the trustees yeah next next week right so the question i think that this last section asks is if this is to be helpful both boards could begin to thinking about which boards we're talking about i think it's only the housing commission right there's no other housing commission is shared energy committee and economic development commission have worked townwide but they're appointed by the select board right um joint stormwater committee right although there's a stormwater agreement you can't remember if that touches on the committee or not um try town try town that'll remain in place yeah that's yeah that's uh untouchable so so can we ask is that something that um we can ask staff to provide that list of advance of that meeting those housing housing housing stormwater the ones we need to understand and energy committee again works across the definitely helps out the village and then economic development yeah i'd say we can provide a list of all our boards and committees we can include that in the packet for the next meeting um let the boards discuss yep once you want to continue in what roles okay all right cool thanks all right that would be helpful okay the next one here in here is uh the assessor agreement i think we were we're pretty much done with this one all right but the change that was made at the bottom of page two number nine section nine where city is crossed out and replaced with town assessor's position is that is that still carry the the intent forward yeah because the village doesn't have an assessor oh they're saying oh wait a minute right so they are the i think the intent here is they we've asked them to support our assessor's department until the uh reassessment is complete which includes uh potentially includes all of the appeals and i think this uh right that city the change from the city to the town i think is a change from question of whether they will have an when they will have an assessor i don't know if it says in here anywhere no it was just this is because it because of the appeal of the appeal went longer they were they're willing to pay for any town employee's time that is involved in the appeal that's why that was changed yeah it wouldn't be the city because they don't have an assessor it would be the town that has to do the appeal because we have the assessor that was my understanding but to me it's a shift in perspective it's saying it's for the time expended by the town employees in their support of the town assessor's position right versus in support of the city's position so who's driving the time being expended whatever is needed for the legal the appeal process yeah in court yeah it's the appeal process that decides that they our assessor will have to use whatever time they need for that appeal and then this city is just saying that they'll pay the town assessor for that time which works out for us and i think that was just some clarification that's what's going to happen and that the city is basically committing to what we wanted anyway which is to use our assessor throughout the entirety of that process so i mean this was a good change for us yeah and does say then that the when the appraisal is complete but before any appeals have concluded the city may establish its own office of assessor so this says that they cannot establish their own office before the before the reappraisal is completed but they can do it during the period which appeals may still be continuing but i think the intent is to continue to have the town assessors deal with the appeals is that what this correct yeah yeah that was the intent that's the way we want it all right just uh for consistency this one has uh on a reasonable hourly basis the it one has something about based on the salary and benefit costs of i mean the it was more specific as far as exactly the director yeah what number was that too uh i on on the reappraisal when it's item number nine right after we're changing where the change is from city to town assessor position on a reasonable hourly basis yeah right and and then the last thing i saw in this is item number 12 it doesn't have the same language this is it has that doesn't have about the select board and the should see we're hand delivered to the other party and this has town of sx town manager city of sx city manager and i think all the others we've had be consistent to say all right language is not consistent in section 12 okay and the other ones don't just say or hand delivered it says to the other party at a duly worn meeting of the town select board or the city council is that what you're referring to just so the language was not consistent my other comment on this one is is it clear enough that when the reappraisal ends that this agreement ends i don't see an end date uh it says continuing a shared relationship um wait a minute the it says or continue to share assessor services with the town so seems there's an option for it to be or in perpetuity if they choose not to hire an assessor but it does drive a new agreement this is continuing a shared relationship will will be pursuant to a new mutually agreeable agreement acceptable agreement sorry but right given that does it maybe amended or modified or routine section 11 says be amended or modified that there's no end date and i defer to bill whether that's an explicit end date or termination date is needed or whether that covers it you hear the question bill i did and i will need to take a look at the whole agreement you can think about it yep thanks bill do we need an explicit end date i remember our discussions previously were along the lines of um we don't really care when they create their own assessing assessor's department if they want to pay for two but they're gonna they're going to uh the reappraisal is going to be done by the town mm the next reappraisal and then once that's over we can talk about future services shared services or or the city can go its own way can't send an end date because we've already said we would stick with it until the appeals the appeals are set by a court of law right not set by us so they can't have an end date to this and i didn't know whether it was until that all appeals are concluded if you yeah if you could word it that way but you you can't give a specific time because yeah some appeals you go and they say come back next year because we're not dealing with it you know it's depending on especially with the court so we are there right now right it can't be date specific right so that one or it gets appealed to the supreme court some people may mm exactly so they can't have a specific date at that time because you don't know the the appeal time and any other comments on this one right or first refusal i think we there's still some more language in this two years to the back out mm-hmm it was agreed to uh last meeting i think the last one we saw had one it looks like one six months two one two i can't tell what's supposed to say now which came first the chicken are the two are the one not more than two years to close this transaction if they just choose to if we offer a right or first refusal they have two years to accept without this mess or close the transaction right up is that what it's supposed to mean the concept here is that they need to have time to uh have a bond vote yeah in order to raise the funds necessary to purchase the building it's not like a typical commercial transaction where you say you've got three months to close on this deal um with the municipality they need some time the uh two years seems like it's a on the longer side and i believe we push back on to one and now it's pushed back to two again but unless unless there's a inkling to sell 81 main street anytime in the near future this is probably not an issue that should take up a lot of your time yep anything else i write a first refusal are you okay with two years yep stormwater we haven't even looked at it all part of the reason that some of these were included in stormwater too is um these will be on the agenda next Monday with the for the joint meeting so it's a chance for you to look at it tonight um not necessarily with an expectation of making changes but just with the idea that you could see it review it before it went ahead so so generally the recommendation is that we continue all of the current capital projects as they are funded as they've been proposed and then when those are done then there's communities go their separate way on stormwater correct and so there will be potentially some town capital projects building infrastructure in the city which is what we had planned to do anyway at this point with the money that and the money's already the funds are already committed are already out there for this or you need we would be applying for grants to close and that's been a while since i've looked at this but that sounds about right there's two two two big projects left it's the um uh church of latter-day saints project and the town village stormwater projects most of those are in the town um the there's already been some projects in the village have been that have been wrapped up but the big ones that remain um and then what those once those are closed out yeah the concept is to each municipality to fund its own way forward okay so given that it's 10 minutes to 11 i don't think i really want to go through this paragraph by paragraph tonight unless anybody really wants so i guess the homework is to look at this um and feed comments to bill yeah this is one that has was was crafted by stormwater staff public work staff on the town and the village that agreed and proposed this yeah so please look at the stormwater agreement get your comments to the bill and then we'll be like we'll be discussing it with uh trustees on monday okay and then some of this other is just back up on the stormwater all right we're moving on to another next agenda item everybody's getting off quiet consent items okay i don't unless there's uh there's any more we need to talk about about the uh agreements okay okay five i discussion and potential action to hire town manager do we want to have executive session discussion about that what uh set up that you can do you want to have a discussion about what we want to do here what we want to say publicly and then uh come back in the session and say it do we i guess there's there's a couple options that i guess we gotta consider so maybe we do need to have the discussion yes so we'll uh we will uh go into the session for that and then the discussion about grievance um also definitely is uh executive session material so there's no need to do an executive session on the agreements but we do have the two other items we can circle back to those after the rest of the agenda so consent agenda move to approve the consent agenda tracy second thank you sue any further discussion i just wanted to make a comment about the um resilient urban forests for all grant i think that was a great piece of work and all hardly support that i did notice that it has a due date of this thursday so i want to make sure that they know that we approve that so that they can move forward they are aware thanks all right any further discussion all those in favor please say aye aye aye okay motion passes our consent agenda passes uh five zero reading file any uh comments here so Dennis gave us a preview of the uh uh capital plan please take a look at that we'll be discussing it uh january uh i can't remember yeah yeah so the request from Dennis is if there's anything that you need to know um let them know now so we can prepare for it um there's a but usual stuff in there um any other reading file comments okay so it's it's 11 or 1051 uh it's unlikely that we're going to finish i don't think we're going to finish two executive sessions in eight minutes at this time mr chairman i'd like to make the motion that we stay in session until 11 30 second thank you don thank you tracy um any further discussion okay all those in favor please say aye aye opposed okay so we will stay in session until 11 30 um i have that's adequate time i have the motions for the executive session cool perfect let's do that then so i move that the select court enter into executive session to discuss the employment of a public employee in accordance with one vsa section three one three a three did we need to include anybody or should we and then we don't need them uh we didn't list anyone but if you want evan uh your bill is available too um here may you bill we need you can say it we can leave yeah let's uh let's to to include bill else and let's have these two guys and the manager and the deputy town manager hey thank you sue is there a second second thank you tracy for the discussion all those in favor please say aye aye opposed no executive session for that two other motions yeah i move that the select board make the specific finding that general public knowledge of a grievance would clearly place the town at a substantial disadvantage second thank you sue thank you tracy any further discussion all those in favor please say aye aye aye opposed okay motion passes five zero and i move that the select board enter into executive session to discuss a grievance pursuant to one vsa three one three a one d to also include bill ellis our town manager and our deputy town manager second thank you sue thank you tracy any further discussion those in favor please say aye aye aye opposed any motion passes five zero we may choose to come back to um and i'm i'm i think our intent is to come back and make a motion so um scott you don't have to stay but um we will come back to the um teams meeting so that if anybody's still participating uh there they can see the final motion we make