 We're glad to know that you're still there. It's the run-up on Plus TV Africa. We're hoping that you're following us on all our social media platforms, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and what-of-you. So if you're following us, you can also be a part of the programs, all of our programs, send us your messages, your questions, and anything. Even send us suggestions on how to become better for you, because we're here to serve you. But on the run-up today, we're talking security, and we're using the unfortunate killing of Bolanlerahim on Christmas Day as a point to kick-start this discussion on security. And we're being joined by Mr. Augustin Ega, a security expert. Mr. Ega, welcome to the program. Thank you, Yamgula Nogche. Okay, well, on the 25th of December 2023, Bolanlerahim woke up, went to church. 2022. Yeah, so on 2022, right? And was going home rejoicing, but she didn't get home. And she was killed by the police that should be protecting her. Let's just get what you feel about that thing that happened before we continue. Well, I think the crime has just happened. And in this kind of crime, we will not look at one aspect of it. We want to profile the victims ourselves and also the offender. The circumstances that led to our death have to be looked into. And we want to look at the environment also where the crime occurred. Was there a riot? Was there unrest in that particular area? If there was unrest, then we can say maybe it's a string of legs. But if there was no sort of unrest, then I think that we must look into the matter further. Profiling late Bolanlerahim, we will have to look at what kind of practice was she into. From what I found out, she was a practicing lawyer in the property business. And we know that the Ajah area is more of the property business that is booming there. And she could have a lot of clients. Of course, she is protecting their interests. And like I said, or as we perceive, I don't believe that every police officer is corrupt. I don't believe. I also believe that some police officers are corrupt and could be compromised. So because Bolanlerahim saw this sort of juicy practices or a juicy profession, I want to believe that there could be something fishy behind our death. It was a string of legs. We want to look at where the attacker shot from. But from everything that we've seen, she was shot directly at her chest. So it was well targeted at her. And so based on this, I think the police, from what the Ajah promised and the CPI promised, they need to investigate this case properly and get to the root of it. That's an interesting angle. The police might have been compromised and we could use another word, assassination, is it possible? I think that's just the word compromised. It can be from any angle. Oh, OK. I would like to go by the word compromised. Until it's proven, you can't use any word. Let the court, let the lawyers prove to us that it's an assassination. Investigation has to be carried out. There will be a pointer today to the aspect that led to our death. OK. We can't form that judgment from our part. We want to look at police reforms now. There's been a lot of questions surrounding how the police has been in practice in Nigeria and how they've gone about their duties and all the back and forth that came with that. And all the stories and events that led up to the 2020 protest. That was a build-up from a lot of police brutality, young persons complaining, both on social media and on the mainstream media. And then it's looking like whatever the complaint has been like has continued. So what exactly do you think is the problem with the police? These people have shown a lot of lack of training, lack of proper understanding of what the duties of a proper police officer is supposed to be. What do you think is the problem? And if we're looking at police reforms, from what angle would you take it from? I think if you look at the police reforms, training and retraining is a key aspect to improve policing in Nigeria. And also, the selection, that's the recruitment aspect, has to be looked into. What kind of people are there really recruiting? But in this case of Bola-Leh's issue, I think the person who committed this crime is a senior officer of the Nigerian police force. If it's someone like a constable or a sergeant who can say that it's a low-ranking officer has not received a lot of training, but this is an officer who is supposed to be experienced in the rules of engagement. So at what circumstances did he shoot this lady? That is the question. And I believe that about three decades of his practice in the police, police in the Nigerian police, he must have gone through a lot of training. But I think even if you've gone through trainings with my interaction with some police experts outside Nigeria, I see that there are current training syllabus that most of these foreign or modern policing is really looking up to. One of those key aspects, which I don't see that we mentioned in Nigeria, is the mental health issue. Some of our police are well stressed. They are stressed. They are stressed out. Let us look up from that angle. They are stressed out. And there are modern policing that our people need to go through. Example, mental health is something that we must consider. It could be that the ASP is not compromised, but maybe it has a mental issue at that moment. So I believe that they should always recall them and do a cross-examination of their fitness for duty. That is the aspect I look at. And their training syllabus should be reviewed. These are the kind of reforms that will help us to really deal with some of these emerging violence issues against us. Also, there is a mindset about the police, in particular a police officer in court in Nigeria. The mindset of the public or the citizen against the police. They have to do a lot of public relations to convince the public that they have actually changed. Because currently the citizens don't trust it's on police. OK. You talked about recruitment as being part of the problem that the police might be facing. But how do we even get to know who is being recruited in a country where data is lacking in so many aspects? We don't even know who is who, who has what record or history, medical history, anywhere. And they just go to the police college and possibly, possibly because I've never been there, I don't know. But possibly the higher or the bigger your envelope that you go with, the higher your chances of becoming employed as a policeman. Because I've seen some people who are shorter than the mark that they give as the height that you have to reach before you're taken as a policeman. But there's police officers. So maybe some things are also associated with that. But how do we get it right in the way by way of recruitment when we don't have data in this country? Well, I think, young people, there's been a lot of improvement in data collection in Nigeria. And there being the police officers, they have access to data. If they want to really make a recruitment, I think they should search deeper. I should ask a question like if you talk about the envelope thing, some overlook, some compromise officers, they overlook. Like I said, not all police officers are corrupt. But there are some that are working for their own interests, not to the greater good of Nigeria. So when these ones are placed in that position of trust, they compromise it. The IG cannot come back and say, recruit this man or don't recruit him. They believe that there's a system that should work. There's a system that should give results. But when the man who is placed in the position of trust compromises, what do we do in the end? It's exactly what we receive now. The public will pay for it. They will pay for their own inconsistency. This is the reason why we are suffering in Nigeria. I believe there's a system. There's a walking system. Nigerian police have a walking system. I've seen some of their documentations. They actually have a very good process that can track down anyone. But if those ones that are compromising the whole issue, I think there needs to be a review. If there should be processes from the recruitment, there should be processes. If there's a check from here, there should be another check somewhere until they finally get that applicant. That is what I believe from my opinion should be done. It should not be processed, should not be left to only one officer. There should be cross-checking. There should be cross-examination of every candidate, including mental health. Sometimes they just go through the medical history. But I think the medical history now, mental health should be considered because of the stressful lifestyle in Nigeria. Mental health, mental health should be considered. Okay. Well, just stay with us. We're going to take a short break. And when we return, we'll continue with this. Because we've heard, for instance, that there's been a budget for the police. A huge one that should cater to the needs of the police force. Yet we're still finding what we're finding now. And then some of the practices and other claims. When you send out police into the society, what do they do that we can learn from to also use here in Nigeria? So we'll be taking that short break now. In a moment, we'll be back. And we're hoping you're going to stay with us. Okay, we're back now. And we're still talking with Mr. Augusten, a guy, a security expert. And we're trying to see what needs to be done to make our police better than they are right now. They must be doing a lot of things, some things that we are not seeing. But when you have one black sheep among the white, we'll tend to see that more. When you have a small black dot in a white board, you will see that black dot. And that's what you'll be describing. And leaving all the whiteness that the board has. So these people still need to be named and shamed as can be done by anybody. Because we need to trust our police that are policing us and securing us. So Mr. Egar, are you still there? Very well. I'm here with you. Okay, you talked a moment ago about what you see when you get out there to interface with other security agencies outside the country. Now, in our own climb, policemen are sent out into a civil society where there is no riot. Maybe they're anticipating riot, but there is no riot at the time they're sent out. And almost all of them are carrying guns. Is that the right way to go? What else can be done so that we can interact with them? Ask them questions and not fear them. I think the police must carry guns all the time. It's fine to carry their gun, but they have their rules of engagement, which is very strict, very rigid. They all know that you don't have the right to shoot a civilian that is on an arm. It is a primary rule that they all obey. Someone with no arm must never be shot. They carry their arms because emergencies can come at any time they're required to use their arms to de-escalate any crisis. But where there is no crisis situations, I think the gun should not be used. Rather, some civil way of de-escalating crisis should be used. So in this case, I'm very, very conversant with the Agile Roundabout. It is crowded, but not to that extent where in a Christmas there should be violence in that area. It is spacious. There's always movement in that area. So I think that they are free to use their arms. They are free to carry their arms, but they must apply the principles that they have been taught not to use their arms until it is necessary. So how do we even know when it is necessary? Because that question is very viable because what necessitates the use of arm? I mean you are in a civil society where there is no unrest like you mentioned earlier, there is no riots, there is no alert of a robbery or any kind of violence. And then you have a loaded gun. Yamgu was talking earlier during our intro and he was talking about how that these days you barely or you rarely see any police officer with batons. What happened? What changed? What brought us to the point where we had to jettison the batons and now carry loaded guns to operate in a civil society where there is no unrest? Is it even right? Is it the right thing to do to carry loaded weapons in a civil society? That is the question. Please make it make sense. Yeah there's nothing bad to carry loaded guns. Like I said there are rules of engagement. The military have their rules of engagement. The law enforcement have their rules of engagement. And because the society has changed, when it is to carry a baton, people were very low abiding. They didn't have terrorism. They didn't have violent crimes where people can kill anybody at any time. We had a very low crime rate when people used batons. But today violent crimes can erupt at any moment. And so there is nothing out of place for them to carry loaded weapons. But like I said the rules of engagement should be followed. Okay. We are the civilians. We are the civilians. We don't know those rules of engagement but you can read for that. But I know that the government, the military men, the law enforcement, they know it. And that is why like I said the investigation would be thorough because they know when an officer should shoot. When an officer should not shoot. That is why the IG and the CP they are involved in the investigations. And at the end I think we should get a very good reply from them. While you were speaking earlier, you mentioned how that in the more developed climes there are systems or other methods of policing that has emerged of which we are not practicing yet in Nigeria. And which you think you mentioned would be a better way to interact and carry out your duties as police officers. Can you go ahead and mention those and once you think that we need to emulate? I think some of those very critical domains in their training is crisis de-escalation. Crisis de-escalation is a process where you don't involve any use of weapons. Even when you see an arm made, you can still be involved in some kind of discussion or to reach the body language of the other attacker before you can get to using weapons. The other aspect in their training, they are civil way of interacting with the citizens. They tend to be very friendly with the citizens they are protecting. Here we have a very, the police in Nigeria they are very distant from the citizens they are protecting. They put themselves in such a state that even the citizens are always scared of them. If an issue happens when I say police is coming, the police officer is coming, see someone running for his life already because they know what they can get from the police officer. I think they are not friendly with the citizens and it's very important that they know how to interact with the citizens. The military are trained for their own kind of business, the DSS are trained for their own kind of business, but the police are the closest people to the citizens. And so they most understand how to interact with the citizens so that the citizens can trust them enough but relate properly with them. Okay, we have like an 11 trillion budgeted for security and the police seems to still lack a lot of things, but even if this budget is given all to the police, where do you think they should start using this money to make this police better? I think some of the most important part is training and retraining. First of all, before they start recruiting new people, they should train the people they have. They should consider the people already in the field that they experienced, because we have trained the trainer. And most of the police people that they will recruit, they still depend on their officers, they depend on orders from their officers. So if the officer that is going to lead a general officer is nowhere equipped in terms of training, how is he going to lead the support in this? So I believe that a good portion of this project should be focused on training, because crimes have gone advance. We have transnational crime happening every day. People can clearly go on the internet and learn some violin acts and then buy guns. So we believe that these will also help. I think it is important that they should put a chunk of their budget into training their officers. And secondly, equipment. Like this, in some advanced nations, they use technology a lot to do their jobs. But here, you see that Steve used the brute force, the traditional means, you're gone and you're whatever. You'll be very surprised that some of the officers can't even use computers. They can't even type on computers. Some officers, I mean not all of them. I have come across some of them that even at their high level ranking, they cannot use computers the way I expect, like you see some of the foreign police, they can do anything with their computers, they can track on their GIS. But here, they don't do it. Some don't even know what to do. And so because they don't know what to do, their approach is always traditional and brute force. So I think training will help them to know when to use a soft approach and a harder approach and to do a lot of good. And secondly, their equipment that they're using, some are obsolete. They should try to equip them better, especially the equipment they use, some kind of tech, boarding cameras, abroad they're using boarding cameras. If that police officer has a boarding camera, I'm sure they do even have the investigative body to really know what transpires because they will replay his boarding camera and bring out the footages of what happened at the moment that that lady was shot. But now there is nothing. We have to believe, they have to depend on hearsay or witnesses, what did you see, what did you see, what happened. But there are so many advanced technology that can even put the officer in check. They don't have it. Boarding cameras should be worn by police officers at this level that we are in this technology age. So you see that equipping them is very poor. They should do a lot with equipment. Of course, we cannot overrule recruiting the officer because police die every day. They kill them every day in the line of duty. So they can recruit but not just recruiting them as you train them for. Okay. Some people have said that if we have state police, policing will be easier and security will be higher now. All these banditry and all that will reduce. Do you also believe in state police? I believe. I think that is one of the major solutions to improve policing in Nigeria. They are shining away from it. But Nigeria has grown so big. The population is growing bigger. So that policing is even more difficult for them. The officers are stressed. You need to talk to some of them and see that they are stressed. And so community policing or the state policing will bring the policing very close to the citizens. Like in our villages, our communities are barred in every state. You see that they will be more friendly. They will understand the culture and tradition of the people, which will help them in achieving results. But here, they are still very far. Like for instance, the crime that has happened or like let's talk about the recruitment of police officers. If it's a state policing, they can always get data about any new recruit, up to his village, up to his community. Remember those days, they would even send some syndicates to the village heads, the community heads and find out the character of that person before they recruit them. I still believe that those things are achievable if they implement the state policing. Compromise situation will be a bit difficult because almost everybody knows themselves in the community. But now, I can assure you that what has happened now in the job that we've done, officer, it must have been transferred to somewhere else in the north or maybe Medugri, where nobody can find him and his family. And you see that is very difficult for us. But if it's a state policing, he will be very careful because they can't transfer him anywhere. He has to face the music. So that is why I believe that it's very important for us to implement state policing. But how will they interact with the federal police? Of course, there's always a way. We have the American that we copy from. They have their hierarchy. They have the FBI. And they have a lot of the CIA. They have all of those structures working for them. They even have the sheriff working in the local community reporting to the state's police. And from there, they get to the federal. So some of these systems are already available. It's just a copy and piece for Nigeria. We have it. They're available, but because of some compromising minds, they will not allow this to work in Nigeria. But I think a time has come where every state governor need to do something to protect his citizens because they are the chief executive, the chief secretary of the state. They must find a way to protect their citizens. This is interesting perspective and all that. And we're just hoping that a lot will be done to make sure that the police will become a better body that will protect us. But if you were to talk with the government or the next president on what to do to make security better, just assume that you're talking to him. What would you say to the next president of Nigeria in terms of police reform and security, the entire security apparatus in Nigeria? What would you say? Of course, some of those, like I say, security is a large domain. If you practice only fiscal security, there are so many other aspects. You need to train them on crisis management. You need to train them on fiscal security, which most of them don't receive that training. They also have other aspects of force investigation. They do it. They have other issues on management. But if you ask me to advise, I will say that training should come first of the ones that are in the line of duty. And secondly, the recruitment process should be looked into. And thirdly, there should not overlook state policing. All of this will help us to build a very strong policing community in Nigeria. What about the place of private security outfits, like the ones that some of you run? The private security aspect, you cannot put them, you see, some of the duties are limited to the environment they protect. Apart from that, we have a bill for private investigators and others to help the public sector achieve certain results. Now, the private policing or private security companies, they are law, they are confined within the space they protect. But they can only have the intelligence gallery. That is information gallery and sharing with the police authorities. They have no right to exceed such limits unless there is a certain criteria that they operate, probably with the armed main. If they are pretty much the armed main, like perhaps in banks and other areas, the armed main know how to rehearse with their commands. So what I say that the private sector is about intelligence gallery and also sharing statistics on what they see within their areas. That can help the public police to improve on their operations. Yeah, I just ask that because some people have said that a lot of these things that happen is because most of the police people or many police officers that should be on the field policing the society are attached to some VIPs and they should make it a policy in such a way that the VIPs in our society get the services, personal services from private security outfits, get their own bodyguards and there should be a law that should give the bodyguards rights to some things that they will need to protect their principles so that the police the police as they are they are marked to be to police the society and not go around carrying bags for VIPs. That's why I asked. Can the price- It's not out of place. Yeah, it's not out of place. That is something that should be done. But in a society where everybody is looking for what they will need, they try to overlook it. They've been trying to suppress the private organizations. But some of the people in the private organization mostly are ex-military men. Some are ex-police officers. Like you said, they already trained. So their certain rights will be given, like we said, for them to use guns and also to protect their principles because they already trained on the rules of engagement. They know what to do. But like we said that everybody is always crumbling for what he will get. They try to overlook, they try to oppress and ensure that they bring their men all the time on certain issues like that. I think they'll be limited to government officials that we know that they carry high risks. Some people and some individuals in the private sector that also are high profiles. That is what I can advise. Not on every occasion you see the police on the road. You see the police scouting some people. Why they should be on really real-time duties. You see them on some areas that are not even engaged. And some of the locations that are not engaged. So I quite agree with you that some place should be done in that area. Okay Mr. Agat, thank you so much for giving us insight to all these things. I do hope that the relevant authorities are listening to us right now and they will do the needful. Especially as you talked about the mental capacity of every policeman. I think that's really key. We'd like to say thank you to you for being a part of our program today. Thank you young girl. Thank you Uche. Thank you. It's a pleasure joining you today. Thank you very much. Well... Is the police really your friend? Is the police really your friend? I mean that's a question that they really need to answer. The case of the young man that was shot at the same place where Bolanle was shot. Only came up after Bolanle was shot. And now nobody's talking about him anymore. We're only focusing on Bolanle. And so many other cases. Exactly. There are so many other cases that happen that nobody knows about. And that is that's why I feel like the police can tell somebody I'll shoot you and nothing will happen. Because you know nothing will actually happen. And I've been in that situation before. I was riding home from work one day and of course with the regular roadblocks and then the policeman does whatever he wanted. And the driver is not cooperating and he's saying you want me to shoot down this your glass. I was asking him to wind down the guy was if I can use I have I will shoot your glass. Yeah. And me my heart was already sinking to my stomach because how do you and he was already pointing the gun. Yeah the cocky. Like you know I can actually do that. And like like the expert said it is there's a possibility that if that crime is committed that person gets transferred to somewhere that you never know he's aware about all that. I hope it will not happen in this case of Bolanle. And you know now that we know that someone shot Bolanle and they have paraded that person. Let's all also know the other person that shot the young man. Yes. And subsequently even if the old things have passed away and we didn't we didn't know what to say. All those are the ones. Anyone that happens from here in or out we should know who did it and we should follow up on how the case is going until justice is served. Yes we know that a lot of them like he said die in the line of duty. And we but when they die in line of in the line of duty it's not maybe it's not a good thing to say but they signed up for the dangers that come with the territory. But the civilian didn't. So while you are doing your duty and you're knowing that maybe something can go wrong anytime the civilian never thinks of that. He just thinks the police is there to protect me or that's what he should think. But in the case where he now comes to die at the hands of the person who is supposed to protect him it's it's really disgusting. It's not even something to be talking about in this day and age in our country like a country like Nigeria. They say we are two hundred million and then we have like four hundred thousand policemen to police two hundred. So first of all they are not enough and like he said yes we understand they might be stressed out because of low pay no manpower and a lot of other things but again when you're doing your duty follow the rules of engagement. Sure whatever is what's doing at all is what doing well. We're going to go on a quick break.