 Welcome once again to the breakfast. Our first major conversation today is on the academic staff union of universities and their threats to once again go back on strike. We're speaking this morning with the ASU president Immanuel Oshideke Professor. I beg your pardon Immanuel Oshideke. Thanks for joining us Professor Oshideke. Thank you very much. Great to have you. I've read through the report in the news and of course some of the things that you've mentioned as the reasons you know ASU might be going back on the strike but I would like you to you know quickly or share with us. So let's hear from the horse's mouth. Thank you very much. What I have to say that when ASU is going to expect to go up I will always say that government gave us the end of this month to ensure that all the issues that we are having problem with are resolved. But up to none of those issues are resolved. Among these issues are number one. As a bad meeting they showed us evidence that 30 billionaires see the end account and that that money could be transferred to routine a short period so that it can be allocated to universities to develop their infrastructure. But up to now that money had not been transferred and it would have money had not be allocated to the university paper. Two, they also showed evidence that they had mainstreamed our EAA and that it was past all the supplementary budgets, 22 billion, and that it was 2021. Up to now would not have for them. On the third one was that issue of U-tas, our university transparency and which we believe is a good alternative to a piece like creating problem with the university system. They indicated that there is only one thing left and that is that there is a need for us to demonstrate the U-tas to the end users which are the bus two units of the university and the registry. Which two we did more than two weeks ago and up to now we have not had on the nature who is supposed to do the test. When in 2019 to early 2021 we have tried the promise that within a very short period these U-tas will be tested and approved and it can be used for the payment of university salaries. As we speak to you so we have more colleagues for the past 16 months have never received any salary. We have people receiving what we face as temporary salary. That is we are a professor and you wake up one morning and you get one at 45,000 Naira, she let that 25% of your salary. All our colleagues who are from outside the university university, all our colleagues who are professor of the country, who are our country, I know about our law, if you are a foreigner you cannot get a full-time job. Many of our colleagues who have that job, some have been sacked. Some are not any salary because these U-tas, at least our IPs, did not take care of them. And the way you go all over the world, the entire university, one of the index, one of the indices for Rangke University is the idea that is global and you have people who have all over the world working in the university. We are even going to a village. When you enter Ticaca University, 90% of academics are from that state, which is not the global best practice. Today, we have no heart from them. You also don't have the issue of state university. If you find out that the corporation of university, the government doesn't wake up one morning, take a paper to their national assembly and we take two or three days before universities are created there. And these governors who cannot fund one, they have. Where is university? There you have university should be. So we also talk about that they need to have a stricter major put in place by national assembly to ensure that you don't just wake up and start university in the village and you go, the next government comes and start around that university in the village. So there's another one also. We also discussed the issue of this visitation panel that they need to read the report as quickly as possible. Those are some of the issues with this course. And then finally, we also discussed the issue of renegotiation between Asu and Pedagok. The last time, this agreement, this template we are using today was approved in 2009. As of 2009, a professor in Moncton 2000 Naira per month in Nigeria, into $3,000 per month. Today, a professor in leather 800 Naira per month. How can you attract the best brain if your solar is leather 800 Naira per month? And that's why if you look at the doctors, they are living it. Sorry, can you take that again? You said in 2009, a professor earned how much? In 2009, the surface of a professor is equivalent to a partner between $2,000 and $3,000 per month. $2,000 to $3,000 per month. Today is leather 800 Naira per month. That's $800. You can't convert it. A typical professor earned $400,000. When you want to buy $400,000 by $500, for example, as exchange rates, it's leather 800. We just sustain this system. Can it be one of those, the best university in the world, you have such a way, can we attract best brain? So that is the problem to deal with. So up to now, we had a discussion with government, we had a negotiation with their team, and we reached a conclusion. In May, up to now, the government had not told us, they went to that principal with the government to give them permission to sign up that agreement. But up to now, we've not heard a word from them. Those are the issues for which we said the government should implement. And we met early in August after that meeting, they promised to reach us at the end of August. But today, the last year of August, we've not heard anything from them. And we told them at that place of it that if at the end of August, nothing is done, then the government should be held responsible for whatever happened. That was my statement. But whatever happened to this system, the government should be held responsible for failing in their responsibility. That was my statement. All right. So what you're saying is that all of these demands that the government agreed to, they haven't taken any steps on any of them? What is the one of all the issues, even the simplest one, of transferring the money from an account to a central bank to another account to a central bank? They say it's too difficult. By the rule today, all federal accounts are in CBN. Hope you're aware. So if it's to transfer money from an account they showed us in CBN to another account within CBN called a need assessment account, they cannot do it in three weeks, then something is wrong. So what then do you think is a challenge here? And have you been able to get any feedback from the government before today? With no feedback, all the time to get to them, they wouldn't respond. All right. So I want us to go, you know, one after the other and look at the UTAS versus IPPIS. What was the government's challenge with using UTAS? The, you know, this is again 2013. And when we met with government, we told government that this year at the peace cannot cater for the diversity of university. University is not like a civil service where you have a single salary structure or you have just, in a university in Davis, you have foreigners working in a university, they should be working. Then you have contract. But this salary, this, their so-called IPs, cannot capture the university. From which we have been to the government's property to come out of eternity and they disappear into the land. But we've been here for them again. But in 2017, they came up and forced every people into that program. And today, everyone knows that what we're saying is correct. Because the system is being gradually emasculated. People are paying salary as implicitly. I can tell you, two months ago, in July, a professor paid $47,000 a salary, a student paid $27,000. And how come you know the university? And what was the issue? They don't say that they don't say whatever they want to do. And pay whatever they want to do. It places there. Then the next month, we were told that a number of our colleagues and people, even those who registered, were paid double salary, were paid double salary. But when we investigated, we found out it was not correct. But if there were a few paid double salary, but people were certain that they were paid double salary to be deducted, this had a crisis we had with that. But your task is designed for the university, but they gave us a challenge. And within three months, we developed a better alternative. We have tested this alternative at the National Assembly to the senior president. We are sure we have developed, we have demonstrated to their candidate office, we have demonstrated it to by chancellors and registrars and bosses. We have also demonstrated it to the grocery unit, staff, each other, paid for in the grocery unit and personnel in the registry. And nobody had to pay for this program. It's homegirl, it will cost nothing. It's free for this country, made in Nigeria, not this one that is made outside the country. All our data are sent to their domain in other countries, which is not done anywhere in the world. And there's 30-some-month program in the system, you can check. Even the doctors and what have you, they will have to do what it is. It's supposed to be simple, but everybody is being mass-culated. No check. People are being recruited without to be called to the center. And what have you, it's a big crisis and there's a need for government to look at our homegrown program and use it for the system. We shouldn't be begging the foreign people all the time. We'll have the brain. And our brain can develop whatever you think of this country. But this country will have to go out and get some from there to develop whatever system at their own rate. And we pay heavily. Nigeria is paying heavily for IPs, very heavily. And which is unnecessary. Now you can do something in your country. And there are checks and balances. In IPs, there's none. Because they will not pay you what they like. Who is checking them? But if a university pays, there are checks in the system that question our university's future. And are comfortable, but not. There's nothing. It's just a candidate. If you didn't want to pay, then how do you pay it? How much do you pay? Okay. And now I want us to talk also on one of the things that I noticed or I read in the report. It says that the federal government has stopped taking ASU's calls. Who has ASU been calling in particular? Well, actually, I don't really press something, but we made a call to the minister, make a call to all of them. So I think that's why I just asked you like… So which of the ministers are you referring to now? You mean self-education? Okay. And there's no one picking the calls. They are returning your calls. Like I said, those ones should not be the issue now. Yeah. I just wanted to clarify. You know, I just wanted to clarify if that was… It was 30 today. If at the end of today, they did not respond to us, then we will know what to do. Okay. And now you mentioned 30 billion Naira Investment Development Fund. You know, I believe that's the same as the revitalization fund that was mentioned. Yes. Okay. Now, what are the true demands and why does ASU need 30 billion Naira for infrastructure development while the universities are still earning from school fees and whatnot? Thank you very much. The 30 billion is not enough for us. It's for the Nigerian university system. Yes. Yes, absolutely. The company is going to the university. Let me maybe better look at the background. As we speak today, our universities are not well funded. In 2012, the Programming Setup Committee is on committee to go around the university and look at the state of infrastructure. And that committee gave a report. We need a seismic report that highlighted the problem in the system. We have a university today that's at that time, I think you see there, we have chemistry. They're using stow as bossy burner. You have a university where you have 16 students in one room, in one room as hosted. And each of these students may have to have a stow. All right. Seems we've lost Professor Osuda Kether, the president, academic staff union of universities, ASU. The conversation is really about the, well, talk about going back on strike at the end of today, the 31st of August. The professor says that the federal government has not, you know, gone forward with some of the promises made in the last memorandum of action that was signed. That includes the revitalization fund, the 22 billion that was also promised to the union and to lectures. Prof, can you hear us now? I'm hearing you. Okay, brilliant. Yes, yes, we can. Welcome back. Go ahead, please. So what we're saying is that this money is part of that 1.3 trillion. We recall in 2014, 2013, two billion were released. They had been released two billion every year for five years. Two billion were released in 2014 during the United Era. And between then and now, they have been 20, 30, and what have you, which is not solving the problem. So this one that is going to be released is also from that fund, which we believe will also help to address the equipment you have with the university. So they agree and the money they said is there. They showed up evidence, showed up a bank statement from CPA showing that you see how 34 billion are in that account. We indicated that the ministry of education said we're going to write to CPA to transfer the money to the assessment account. And for us to ensure that that money is not mismanaged, there's a committee put in place, do that in the Petition Monetary Committee. That committee was supposed to not sit down and look at that money to the university based on needs, but you know that committee have not met. So that is the problem for the people. Yeah, on the average, you know how, I'm not sure if you have this information, but on the average, how much was each university meant to get from that 30 billion? Thank you. That is what the IMC ought to do. They will sit down and look at each university, look at their size and then the year, the problem they have, and then decide how much each university gets. That's what the committee will do. And money that is well spent. That is the idea of that IMC meeting to look at those particular how much each university should get. Okay. There's people who have mentioned that it maybe is time that we look also closer at what universities make annually and how some of these funds can be used to better fund infrastructure because it's heartbreaking. Like you mentioned 16 people staying in one room in the university, that's not even human and convenient for learning. I've seen also videos of some university hostels and it's really, really heartbreaking seeing that human beings live in those conditions or have to use those bathrooms. So has Asu also taken time to speak with Vice Chancellor's to see how, in any way, that they can also fund certain details of infrastructure here and there. Thank you very much. If you watch today, the third-lar universities and most universities are not charging tuition fee. What they are charging, they don't charge is, for example, the ICT, the development ICT, let me pay for hosting accommodation, they pay for health, medical services, and what have you. These are what they pay the pay, which you have to use specifically for small seats. Are you following? So that is what they are supposed to pay. But I also agree with you that in many of these universities, these funds are not mismanaged, which we are also working on now. I can agree with you. The fund are not properly used. We are hearing now, I hope it's not true, that even if the federal government is trying to get this by chancellor, I mean between 20 and 40 percent of this one to the political, this account where they share money, as part of a revenue generation, which is not correct. It's still not going to happen for any country, and you want to take 20, 30 percent of the money to go and put it to what you call it. That's account for sharing. I don't think it makes sense. That's the problem where it has been. Are there interferences by the ministries? As we speak so, on the yearly basis, not less than 30 to 40 groups, who want to receive universities for X, Y teams, which is not necessary in those days. It's not necessary. University autonomous community. But today, all the veterans who have been to that pleasure, today, to what they call them, we want to have a project. This one you call you, they call you, where they send teams. Even a team who went to a university to look at number of people who have died in the university. If a team from a ministry, Mr. University, look at how many people who have died. This interference is actually the problem in the system. And I think it should allow the university to go on as autonomous, even if they have autonomy, and they also step on how the presidency can step in by saving the station every five years. And at the end of that visitation, you can't deal with those people that have been managed by me. But if you watch out until our last strike, the president did not say any visitation to the investor, which is completely wrong. So if these checks are implemented as the aspects in the law, we will not have to visit Miss Spanish South. But I can assure you, we're also working on that as a senior one. We're going to let you know in the picture, but then we're going to have a visitation in many of the universities. Before we move on, I think it's important that that conversation is had. Because if those things are not checkmated, then Nigerian students will continue to, of course, bear the brunt of these bits of mismanagement here and there. Vice chancellors have a lot of questions to answer. It's pretty much the same thing with CMDs in hospitals across the country with regards to mismanagement of funds. But also, I hope that you can get with that. Some other thing that I want to ask you, and these are just ideas. Hopefully we'll get to speak with the government. Sometimes we can get their own side on why they've not been able to fulfill the promises made in the memorandum of action. But some other thing that I want to ask is, I'm sure you've also looked at universities outside Nigeria and see how they also derive funding. You see a lot of universities doing very, very interesting research, being able to sell courses, online courses, and the person in Ibadon can attend an online course from Yale or from any part of the world. Where do you think Nigerian universities are also failing with regards being able to self-fund and generate income for themselves better? I don't know if they're working enough on new ideas with which they can fund themselves. They can generate income for the university. Thank you very much. This is one of the outcomes of that need assessment report. You see, where we are today in the world, you need well-equipped laboratories to do meaningful research, to do meaningful research that will be accepted. If you apply for a grant, you still get a grant. So what we're saying is that there's a lot of equal universities on what standards. A standard that they can compete with any other university for grants to be funded. That is what we are talking about. A standard for the university in such a way that they can compete with any other one within the world to get grants, to get a national grant that you are talking about. And what that means. That is where we are. I can tell you, you can't spend so much money to buy a piece. It took us, us, to fund that by us a million. It seems we've also lost sound from the ASU President Day, Emmanuel Professor, Emmanuel Osodeke. I hope that we can reconnect with him. These are really just looking at different angles with which the Nigerian universities seem to not be properly functioning. And of course, getting deeper into the conversation concerning the call for another strike or going back on strike by ASU, if the federal government fails to fulfill their promises by the end of today. And that's what I'm going to be asking next. Is that a likelihood that there will be a strike? And what is the fate of those who are currently in universities? 2020 was a tough year for Nigerian students, if you remember. There was a long strike side by side with the COVID-19 pandemic. Are we ready to, of course, relieve those times again? Professor, welcome back. Thank you. All right, so now I want to speak about, you know, what happens after today. What is the likelihood of ASU once again down in tools after midnight today if the federal government does not respond to your calls? Thank you very much. You know, our friends in the press, you know, my press conference, my speaking with the media, I'm not saying we are going on strike. I never, what I said is that if at the end of this month, the government did not implement what they told us on the 2nd of August that they will implement, then the country should hold the government responsible. And you know, you know, we don't just work for one money and go on strike. It's a process starting from the branches up. So it's not, we are not going to just say tomorrow we will start to strike. I was saying, you know, we don't behave that way. But our organs will start meeting. We'll start meeting by 10. I'm going to start some meetings and we'll look at the issues. Then we'll take it off from there. We didn't say we're going on strike at the end of the month. I've never used such questions. Okay. Thanks for clarifying that. And that's also a very interesting point that you've made. I also want your thoughts on Nigerian students who of course went through a very, very torturous 2020, the strike and of course combined with COVID-19 and some of all of that. A lot of them have had their graduation years delayed, you know, longer than they should have. Do you have concerns as the president of ASU for these students? Do you have students who are children rather who are currently in Nigerian universities? Thank you very much. All my children are in public university. Two have graduated, but the other two are in public university. Let me tell you. Once again, of course, every now and then we have to deal with these network challenges. We're speaking with the ASU president and I would really, really love to hear his response to that question. Hopefully we can reconnect with him soon. What is the fate of Nigerian students from the third? Like he's just mentioned that they're not necessarily going on strike today, but, you know, they would start discussions, you know, and from the third, you know, they would continue with those discussions and see what the next steps are to be taken. Will the Nigerian government respond? Will that money that is supposedly with the central bank of Nigeria be paid to the ASU account or not? What are the next steps that needs to be taken with regards to IPPIS and UTAS? These are some of the burning questions with regards to all of this and how much better can the Nigerian government fund education, fund universities, put them in a better shape? Look at the state of hostiles that Nigerian students live in. It is heartbreaking. Look at the level of infrastructure that is in the recent laboratories across Nigerian universities, public universities to be precise. It is really, really heartbreaking and, you know, you can basically watch some of these universities, you know, dilapidate. You know, you can see them break down over time. The universities that you see, you know, currently you could call the pride of a nation 20 years ago, but you know, you can't find any of all that, you know, state of infrastructure in those same universities today. We'll take a short break and we'll be back on the breakfast. Don't go anywhere.