 Hi, this is Sandy Baird and I wanted to tell everybody that this meeting will be recorded and then later shown on channel 17, CCTV public access television. So thank you all for being here. Tonight, we are going to be discussing the world as it tumbles into war between right now between Russia and Ukraine. And I say that guardedly because tonight I would like to have a discussion about that war and its implications for the rest of the world. Remember that it has thus far defined mainly by the US media, perhaps by the Russian media also as a war between Russia, which invaded Ukraine about one month, 29 days or so ago. I would like to broaden the discussion because the war has also been presented as largely a war against Vladimir Putin. That Putin has been described variously as a monster, as demented as mad, all of which might be the case. However, I think it does not define what is really going on in the world and it's rather irrelevant because this is a war that involves the whole world or might involve the whole world eventually. And so I would like to broaden the discussion tonight. And I would like to broaden that by bringing in the perspective of my guest tonight who is Eric Onero, a colleague of mine in what I would call the People's Law School, which I am developing and we'll speak about it sometime at a later date. But Eric is a man from Ivory Coast who is just in Africa. And at the time that he came back from Africa, he offered me the kind of transformative information that everywhere he went were signs that were pro Russia or pro Putin. And that really made me think hard about what is going on in the rest of the world. We think about mainly this war is of a concern and has been defined essentially as a European war, a war between Russia and between Ukraine where Russia invaded Ukraine about 29 days ago. And we are not thinking of it in broad world politics or even the consequences of what it might mean for the rest of the world. So I wanted to do an update with Eric about that. We did another program on that talking about his information from Africa. Also, the consequences and the underlying causes of what is best, it could very well tumble into World War III and that will be a whole world and not just a war between Russia and Ukraine. Eric is a former reporter for CNN. He is from the Ivory Coast. He is joining us here in Burlington and he is helping me develop the whole idea of the Vermont Institute of Community and International Development and also the People's Law School. So I guess I will turn this over a little bit to Eric and just get his perspective really from the third world. Okay. So, Eric, what did you find? Thank you, Sandy. And thank you to everybody to be with us tonight. I was in Abidjan in Ivory Coast and in Ghana when the war started in Ukraine and I was quite surprised to realize that among the Africans there was some kind of sympathy, some kind of backing, not like the war against the Ukrainian people, but the Africans in general were in favor or were behind Putin. So I asked the folks over there if it was are you okay for Russia to go to Ukraine and kill people eventually? And then as an answer I got the sense that it wasn't that people were condoning the war, so to speak, but mostly they were behind someone that was standing against the West. So why? That's important. Yeah. Okay. I think it's important. Unless somebody else wants to ask another question, what do you mean by the West exactly? I mean by the West, the US and the former colonial powers because the West or Africa is mostly the US and the world that is behind the idea of bringing democracy and bringing a more liberal world to Africa. So mostly the former colonial powers in the case of the Ivory Coast, it's France. France that even though these countries have some kind of independence on the papers are still ruled economically, politically and geopolitically by France. You have also former colonies from Great Britain and then other colonies from Portugal and Belgium and Belgium with the notorious King Leopold who chopped thousands, if not millions of hands in Congo. So it's a bitter Africa, I think, that is seeing Putin as someone that is standing against the West that has failed to bring what he promised. A few decades ago, the world was divided between like those who were for Russia and the USSR and those who were for the Western bloc. Most of the countries at that time didn't have the luxury to choose. Some did choose, they were more powerful but most of them were under, for example, the countries under the French rule were just had to do what France was asking them to. Which is what? To oppose the USSR? Right. Some other countries which were more daring and more, you know, less docile and a little bit hostile to the Western world because the Western world is linked to colonial power, you know? So these countries, like most of the countries that used to have revolutionaries like Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah, you know, were aligned with the US, I mean with the Russians, USSR at that time, or were non-aligned because there was this movement of countries that didn't want to join either with the West or with USSR. Today, things have changed. These countries are, you know, seeing new powers. Hold on for one minute. So I think that one of the problems that I've seen in recent, in all the coverage, is a kind of a mindful forgetting of that past in Africa. It seems to me that either Armenia is willfully ignorant or ignorant. I mean, I think there's no real understanding that Africa was imperialized never by Russia or never by China, but by, in fact, the primaries of the NATO countries. If you want to think of it that way. Yes, and then it's interesting because the media tend to see what happened, what is happening to Africa today as something that just come out of the blue. They don't see it as the result. And then it's a little bit like... Okay, but what's coming out of the blue, okay. So the old imperial powers are what we're talking about France, England, Belgium, Portugal, and Spain. A little Spain, yeah. They have ruled these countries in Africa. Rural, and then they have continued even after the, you know, the independence. And independence occurred in the 50s and 60s, you know? But most of the countries were locked into treaties with the former colonial powers, which gives, you know, for example, France, the priority on the resources. So much so that, for example, Niger, which is one of the major supplier of uranium for France, you know, doesn't even have electricity. So the Western media is like, we have the feeling that it's all these Africans, you know, do they know better? You know, they better be ruled by the colonial masters. Nobody goes deep into what happened over there and what can be the reason why today these countries are seeing Vladimir Putin, not as, you know, the savior or whatever, but someone who's standing, someone who was like, at least, you know, telling the West that enough is enough. They are countries that want also to be, you know, to be free. So the problem is in this dynamic, these countries can also go towards new power, new, not colonial power, but, you know, China and Russia. They are there for business. So, oh, yeah, China is China is the major competitor for, I mean, for the West over there in Africa. China is in Africa. China doesn't ask the Africans to come up with, you know, good grades when it comes to democracy of human rights. They don't care. They don't care. They don't care. So because, you know, the Africans are saying, anyway, the US is asking us to have good grades when it comes to, you know, human rights and democracy. But are they example of such things? When, for example, in the, in their own countries, you know, minorities are being, you know, have been for many centuries, you know, oppressed. When, for example, they're waging wars in other countries, proxy wars, when they went to Iraq with false critics, when they, you know, so the main issue is, is the West? Does the West have enough credibility to, you know, to, to be, you know, the gendarme of the world? Okay. All right. So in other words, then you did find sympathy, sympathy for Russia. And then. Why, the why Russia? Isn't that a white country also? Yeah, but there's no, there's no history of oppression in Africa. Right. From the Russia. Or Chinese? From the Chinese. Even though China is doing business in Africa, sometimes there could be some problems. China tend to come to countries with their own workers from China. Anyway, Chinese are not angels, but I remember when I was working for the African Union, Mugabe is saying one day that Mugabe is like the former, you know, former president of Zimbabwe, who used to be a good boy to the West until he asked Clinton and Tony Blair to help him get a little bit of the lands that were confiscated by, you know, the white farmers from England over there to his fellow Zimbabwe. And then it didn't happen. So Mugabe became. Wait a minute, did he confiscate the land? He confiscated some of the lands over there to give it back to the people over there. But from the Western world, he was like one of these barbarian, you know, dictator again, you know, going towards like. He was another Putin. He was another Putin. Mugabe was not an angel. But remember, any time the West put pressure on a leader in the third world, this guy is cornered and becomes someone a little bit heretic. So this is what happened to Zimbabwe. So Mugabe was saying at the African Union at a big meeting one day, we were raped by Europe. But with China, we can decide to go to bed with China. And that's, you think that's accurate? China, right? I mean, I mean, you know, someone who raped you and then continues to oppress you through the UN because most of the decisions about Africa is taken by the former colonial powers of the UN, who continues to oppress you through, you know, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, which has applied very, very, very difficult, you know, measures to the African economies, sending, you know, these economies to be privatized, you know, and cutting down on the social, you know, investments, no more hospitals, no more schools, but just pay back your credit cards to the Western banks. So, you know, at the end of the day, China is building roads over there, without condition. Why then? Because China is making money. China is doing business with them, you know? So I think it's about time the West understands that things have changed, you know, that the new generation of leaders want to do business with whoever comes to them without, you know, patronizing them, without thinking that they're subhumans who don't even know how to take care of their own resources. The continent has changed. The continent now wants to do business the rest of the world with no, you know, father or mother who will come to dictate what they have to do. And without the history? Without the history. It's a thing maybe of the past, but, you know, how could you forget when you continue to be exploring Niger, in West Africa, I mean, in the Sahel, continues to provide uranium to France, but Niger doesn't even have electricity. Any electricity? I mean, barely, barely, Nigerians are living in extreme poverty. And you go to Mali, Mali has gold. All the gold that is in France comes from Mali and all these countries, you know? But Mali doesn't have decent hospitals. You go to Ivory Coast, Ivory Coast might be famous for, you know, chocolate and everything, but the Ivorians don't own their own country. It's all decided in France. So, you know, at some point, you want to go beyond that. So that's why I think these countries, I mean, these, the Africans are behind the Russian, but even for the sanction, Europe is the only continent or at least Western Europe. It's the only one in the US that are applying the sanction. Okay, that's important. So let's pause there for a minute. In response to the war in Ukraine, the United States primarily issued sanctions against Russia, which means what? That we're not doing any business. That's not true either, we're still doing business with Russia, right? Yeah. But these sanctions are really meant to cripple Russia and punish Russia so that Russia changes its mind. Yeah, but, you know, in fact, it's only European countries, Western European countries and the US that are maybe somehow applying these sanctions. But if you go around the world, no country from Africa would do that because, you know, it would be, you know, a suicide for their economies. They don't want also to be in trouble with Russia because in this new world, nobody is the master of the world now. Is that right? Hey, look at India, India, Russia, South Africa, Brazil, and China are together in a new block that is called the BRICS, 40% of the population of the world and major contributors to the economy. These people even though, you know, the US is still the mightiest country in the world, but is it? I mean, let's say, yes, militarily, economically, you know, even China was trying to be there as a, I'm not saying a long way, but you know, yeah, as a way to, you know, let's not think that the US is a major, you know, player on the international, but the US cannot no more be like they used to be like 10, 20 years ago, you know, the superpower, because they are mid-sized powers like India, Russia, China, that could, if they get together or even alone can stand somehow, you know, in front of the US. So the sanctions are showing that it's only Europe, even Europe is divided. Right, right. You go to France television, you hear some leaders of political leaders that won't follow the landscape. They can say, yeah, some of them have said that, but, you know, of course, mainstream France, because of, you know, the links to what I mean inside NATO and stuff has to be aligned to, you know, the, you know, the NATO. But in reality, some of the leaders in France don't want it. And then a lot of, a lot of companies even in front, and Zelensky, when he was addressing the France parliament has named some companies from France that are still doing business in Russia, you know. So the world has changed and then the countries like in the Third World, even if you go to Latin America. No, no, I want to get to Latin America in a minute. But it seems to me that what we're talking about honestly is that our media here and the media that I see all over the United States is when they talk about the world does not support Putin. They're talking about the white world a lot. They're talking about NATO countries, period. They make no, they don't have any consciousness that Latin America probably does not stand with the United States and NATO, or that Asia does, or that Africa does. Yeah. So what are they talking about? They're talking about France. They're talking about the NATO countries, correct? Yeah. This shows also the bias because for a long time these countries, you know, didn't represent anything. But they still think they do. But you know, I mean, the realities or the white. Well, let's talk about that reality. Okay, so you mentioned a very key word and that is BRICS. I'm not certain that most Americans know what BRICS is or how long that semi-aligns. It's not a military alliance, correct? Yeah, it's not a military alliance. Okay. What is it? Economy. It's an economic agreement. Yes, because you have Brazil, Brazil. For example, Brazil says we cannot apply any sanction. Brazil is a major agricultural power. Correct. In Latin America. And Brazil needs, you know, fertilizers. Where do we get Russia? From Russia, you know. Most of the countries use wheat for bread. And so, I mean, the world is so much integrated today economically, financially, that, you know, you cannot isolate a country like a major player like Russia. Okay, so there's Brazil, and you're saying that they won't do the sanctions? They won't do the sanctions. China won't do the sanctions. And that R is Russia. Russia. India. I. Yeah. China. China and South Africa. And South Africa. Even South Africa, the beginning of the crisis at the UN, South Africa, issued a statement asking the Russians to get out of Ukraine. But two days later, they came back. What they say. They don't say anything anymore, because they know that, you know, they, you know, they're part of this alliance. And then even Russia has been very important in the fight against. Against what? Apartheid against, you know, the oppressive regime in South Africa. So Russia was. Yeah. So the world today is like not the world of a polarized world with USSR. Even the Russians are no longer, you know. The USSR. Yeah. Yeah. So the world has changed and there are mid-sized players, mid-sized powers that can enter in the, in the balance and then look, even in Europe, you have, you have Turkey. Right. I was thinking about Turkey. Turkey is mediating a peace agreement. Can you believe that? Of course you can believe it. Yes. And Israel, Israel is. In Israel. Israel is, you know, Israel is, is kind of, you know, playing soft with Russia, because they need Russia to counter the influence of Iran. Right. You see, so it's a word where you have to understand, okay, take a deep breath. Okay. I'm still a superpower, but I cannot no longer dictate, you know, my will to the rest of the world. That's too business. And that's, believe me or not, you go through Africa. They still like Trump, Donald Trump. I know. You know why? I know why. Because it didn't change much of the, you know, the international policies of, you know, but it was mostly business. Right. Of course. At least that's what they perceive. Because it's true. From Trump. That's always been interested in making money. I tried to tell them, okay, listen, do you think that, you know, they said, this is the problem of the U.S.? We want a business partner. We don't want like someone who comes to give less. So the world has changed business. And then this is also the occasion for, I mean, the opportunity for the U.S., which has still, you know, a good audience in Africa. I do. Yes. I mean, China might be, you know, nice. We're coming with these, you know, new toys and things. But, you know, come on, it's the U.S. Why? It's the U.S. Why? Who went to the moon? Who did that? Hey, but you weren't saying it was because of Elvis Presley. But culturally, economically, I mean, whatever is happening here, even socially, the social movement, even like, you know, the right for women, even the U.S. is one of the first countries in the Western world that is tackling the race problem, even though in terms of, you know, race, even looking at the past and trying to find at least talking about it. Go to France. Go to Europe. Nobody is talking about it. No. It takes like, it takes, it takes, I don't know, what for, for, for Belgium to recognize that King Yopoul of stopping hands in Congo. Over rubber, over rubber. Yeah, France is bragging about being a country where everybody's equal. It's ridiculous. There's still, you know, I mean, me, I worked for the U.S. I worked for the voice of America, even though it was, it was a propaganda. It's a U.S. government office. But go to France for a fellow Ivorian to be able to work at that level. I have Ivorians here that have houses. I have Africans here that can buy a house that can go to work. That won't change the way maybe a white guy or another race will look at him. But at least if there's a problem they can do, they can go to court, you know. So it's still a great country, but the world has changed. It's no longer, you know, a world where you come with the big guns and make law. It's a world where you come with diplomacy. Except that the West France, U.S. is still militarizing Africans and African countries, right? Yeah, but it's a fantasy because they think that it's the solution would be, you know, a militarizing. They won't, what? Against terrorism or something? Terrorism is just a pretext to be there. Why do we want to be there? You know, you know what? Futurism is when you when you when you when you deplete Africa from its resources, when you put, you know, you know, tribes, you put, you know, political camps in confrontation for you to be able to snitch, you know, the resources out of country. That's what brings, you know, terrorism, give access to education to everybody, give access to, you know, electricity. I mean, these these I told us that wouldn't have any audience to talk to. What kids have to have to take like small small boats to go to Europe because their countries are being depleted of their resources by the same colonial powers that are, you know, to be giving lessons to the rest of the world. I mean, how can't you have terrorism? I mean, it's not that simple. And then talking about terrorism. Do you I mean, the Western world went to like to bombard Libya. Yeah. Gaddafi wasn't Gaddafi. The the the Libyan leader wasn't an angel. Oh, oh no. But at least, you know, there was some order over there. After the war in Libya, all the hoodlums that were operating over there left the country with guns and, you know, slaves, slavery again. Hey, Yemen, what's going on in Yemen today? You know, terrorism, it's poverty. It's poverty. I mean, the world is not a place like a kindergarten, you know, a playground. But we have to go by some rules of decency and not treat, you know, the Africans as subhumans or the people from Latin America as subhumans to whom you can apply rules like without, you know, you know, expecting any backlash. It still will still have as a country, the US, the mightiest country on the world, the, you know, the, you know, one of the bright, I mean, the country, the brightest mind to change the way we do business in Africa. We have like Africans that are, you know, now new Americans that can be the trailblazers for, you know, right here in this community. Yeah, but that can be the trailblazers for like a new way of doing business in Africa. They have collaterals here. The kids are here. They can be given loans to go to Africa. The same way China is financing. It's, you know, it's economic operators to go to Africa. The same way Turkey is giving everybody is, you know, subsidizing the business people to go to Africa. We have, we have, we have Erics. We have people that are still loyal to America that could go there, open McDonald's. I mean, I'm not, I'm not calling, I'm not calling for, you know, but that could open like franchises that could do business and change the way. And that you say is what Russia and China are doing. That is what Russia are doing. They're not coming. Of course we have to ask for, you know, human rights and so. But the best, the better way to have someone, you know, talk about human rights is to have him like, to be prosperous. And then you can start discussing about what, what do you ask for human rights to someone who doesn't even go to the hospital? It's like a secondary thing. I'm not, I'm not like minimizing the fact that we have to be, we have to hold some people accountable. But who are we? Are we credible enough when we, we let Saudi Arabia massacre people around? There's almost a half a million people that have died. You know, I don't know. In Yemen is correct. Yeah. You go to Congo, you go to Congo. Kids are dying in these mines. Like people are killing each other for just the ways to have cell phones. Of course the politicians over there are corrupt, but they are, they are peons. They are puppets of, you know, of most of the Western government and China and Russia. Okay, so I did want to talk a little bit about Latin America before we ask for questions. Because what you, what you also said was really curious to me because at one point I'm, to my thinking really has gotten transformed by what you're saying. I was seeing the war as it was presented by the media that this was a war between Russia and Ukraine for underlying reasons that invasion happened for, for other reasons that don't justify the invasion. Nevertheless, there are reasons why that happened. But I wasn't thinking about the fact that it is the NATO world only that is the European countries that appear to be behind the NATO countries and not with Putin. But in fact, the rest of the world has been very silent about this. I haven't heard of one protest pro-Ukraine in all of Latin America. None. Have you? No. Okay, or from Africa or from Asia. The big support for Ukraine seems to be only in Western Europe, Canada and the United States. Of course, because you know what is that. No, no, this is, now this is key. So the perspective is really in my mind from our country really screwed up. That is, is that because they're ignorant of the way the rest of the world thinks. They don't want to inquire how the rest of the world thinks. They're so narrow-minded that they're not even willing to consider that there might be another point of view. I'm pretty sure, you know, most of the Americans know about it. No, they don't. No, they don't. Because like whatever is being seen on TV is not the truth. Yeah, you know, I've said enough in this country to know that people have, people have, you know, intelligent. But yeah, it's just that, you know, the media are manufacturing these, you know, these, of course, if a country is, you know, if a country goes through war, you have to have sympathy for the population. Of course, of course. But it looks like we have only sympathy. Not even the Ukrainians are not even like in the mind of people. It's Zelensky. Zelensky is just like a guy who's like agitating his cell phone and things. People don't get the sense of like the gravity of the problem. Right, right, right. It's like it's being like so much trivialized on television that we don't understand that it's, you know, a geopolitical war. It's like NATO going to look for trouble in Russia. And Russia being, you know, it's not, you know, saying that Russia has the right to go and start bombarding the country. But they've been a precedent. You know, they've been, you know, even the West said we won't go further West, a further East. But in reality, that's not what was happening on the ground. So, and then under the same pretext of, you know, the world is divided, you know, the Monroe Doctrine. Nobody can come and do whatever they want in the backyard of the U.S. So even in Yalta, Yalta divided the world. Even prior to Yalta, Berlin, the conference of Berlin divided. We were even dropped into small countries in Africa. So why do you accept that for your backyard? And you don't accept that for the backyard of Russia. Maybe it's about time the whole world make, put an end to all backyard around the planet. And then, but it can't be only for one side. It has to be for all the, all the, all the parties. Right. Okay. So before we get to that, though, okay. So I wanted to speak a little bit about Latin America because I'm going to, with you, I hope be able to go to Cuba, for instance, in a month or so. So it hit me too. Cuba probably is not anti-Russia. And why is that? The reason is, is a big history, really in all of Latin America, but particularly in Cuba, where the United States has decided that Cuba is going to have an embargo against it because it's a socialist country is what I believe. And it's because Cuba had to, in a lot of ways, accept assistance from the full Soviet Union and also now from Russia. There's these similar feelings, I think, throughout the Americas, except for the U.S. and Canada. The sympathies in Latin America must be all very mixed. And they must, too, be seeing that they might very well be not sympathetic to the NATO countries. In other words, I guess, put it that way. Yeah. I think at the end of the day, people are tired of a word that is about, follow this camp, follow here. People just want to have prosperity. But they want to, as you said, they want to do business. They just want to do business. And then so it might be, however, tragic the situation in Ukraine. The Malians have a problem. How are they going to feed the people? How are they going to have electricity? So would they spend time wasting their time following two elephants that are fighting? In Africa, we said when the two elephants are fighting, it's the grass underneath that is suffering. And that's true of Ukraine. Yeah, that's the grass. Ukraine has been the grass where two elephants are waging a proxy war. That's an important word, though. It's a proxy war. Between the U.S., I mean, the Western world and Russia. Except I'm not certain that it's even the entire Western world. I don't think Germany or France want to go to war in Russia. But they are NATO. And so what? What is NATO? When you agree to join an alliance, you lose a little bit of your sovereignty. Okay, so before we open up for questions, NATO, in my understanding, and I'm a historian, I love history. I've studied a lot of history and I taught history. In my memory, NATO was formed in about 1947 out of World War II. And it was an alliance. They said a defensive alliance against whom? Who was it aimed at? That alliance, Russia. Out of World War II, where the United States and the West had depended on the Soviet Union to help or pay the biggest price to defeat the Nazis. Everybody thought we were going to have peace with the Soviet Union. And in fact, the West developed an alliance against the Soviet Union. And immediately the Cold War started. It's my contention. And then NATO also expanded during the, I think, push. The first, there was an agreement not to expand NATO up to the borders of Russia. And then the Clinton administration broke that agreement and piled all these new countries right into Russia's backyard. Right? Yeah. That were NATO. Yeah. Okay. So to me, this is a proxy war, a continuation of the desire on the part, at least of the United States, to really, basically, to really hurt Russia. But you know, there was. And also Russia took the bait, probably. Yeah. But you know, you have also to understand that, you know, out there also, you know, Russians and Chinese and other powers are not letting the US, you know, rest. They're also pushing for, you know. Of course. So, I mean, one can understand that, you know, the US also is trying to defend, you know. Defend what? Defend its NATO allies, including all the new ones. Poland, for instance. Poland seems to be the ally in NATO that is, it seems to me that is most interested in this war against Russia. But I don't think Germany and France really are. No, they don't. I mean, they're in trouble. Because like, when are they going to get rid of the dependency towards, you know, Russia? They're only going to get rid of the dependency on the United States. I mean, the United States now, it's causing us, you know, it's creating an alternative now. We're going to give you, you know, gas and, you know, but, you know. Gas to who? Germany and France? It won't happen now. I know it. It won't happen now. So, I mean, to me, let's go towards peace. Now it's. But you also say something else. Do business. Business. Let's go towards peace. Let's find a peaceful solution if you create now. Because, I mean, even if Russia cannot invade the whole Ukraine, the rest of the world wouldn't be able to also get Russia out of Ukraine that easily. At the end of the day, it's the poor people from Russia, from Ukraine. And the Africans know about it. They know how, you know, Western powers have been fighting for them, you know, in between, you know, if you go, for example, Rwanda, what happened to Rwanda? The genocide in Rwanda. Well, what did happen? One million, one million people died in almost two or three days. I mean, over a few days. Rivalry between the U.S. and France in the region. What? Really? Or definitely. Between U.S. and France? And France in the region. I thought we were going to France. At some point, the U.S. started to see if they can, you know, you know. Jockeys and shit. But, you know, at the end of the day, it was very tragic. Yes. So now they agreed to at least consult before doing anything over there. But, you know, what happened to Rwanda? A million people almost died. A million people. And that was a contest between the superpowers? Yes. If you go to Congo, what is happening to Congo? So Africa knows what it is to be, you know, used as proxies war. Even between, back in the days, the West and U.S. and South. They know what it is. So Ukraine is living that. And I think that Zelensky should calm down. War is not a game. It's not like a video game with your cell phone and going around. Well, I'll tell you who else should calm down is the President of the United States. I mean, Zelensky and, you know, the Ukrainians should calm down and look for a peaceful solution. But he is, I thought, Zelensky, right now. Let's see. Right. Let's see what's, what's, what happened. And everybody wants them. Everybody but the U.S., it seems Israel wants them to. There's no way but, you know, peace to look for. Right, right, right. But the major, major players are saying to Ukraine, settle this, settle this. Right. Except when the United States, the President says, let's go get Putin because he's a bad guy. That is serious escalation. But, you know, remember that it's politics. You know, everybody wants, you know, maybe this country. Remember, we still want to go to war in Ukraine. I hope so. Are you kidding? I hope so. Okay. I hope so. Anyway, okay. Don't we, don't we have enough to care about here? Yes. Gas is like gas prices skyrocketing. We need to accelerate the transition towards like electrical, electric vehicles. We need to, we need to be able as a mightiest country to give at least a relief to the students that are carrying loans like, you know, you know, we need to be able to give two year free college. Why don't you run for president? You're not a citizen. Okay. Well, are there questions or anybody have any other thoughts? No, I can't. Let's see. We need to maybe mute yourself. Sandy, I can't hear you now. Who is speaking? This is Sharon Buescher. Hi Sharon. What's up? Well, so this was disheartening. Honesty sometimes hurts when you hear it. Very informative. But I wanted to understand in most of the countries that you're referencing, are the governments really dictator like or what are they like? And are they, you mentioned, you touched upon human rights and how the United States addresses that component of livability and just life in general. But if indeed they're aligned with Russia in this confrontation, and yet they're relying on Russia and China for resources and their quality of life, does anyone ever think about how Russia or China could potentially change the leadership in these countries and take away some of the freedoms that you have at this point? I would say that many of the African countries don't have that, don't have freedoms. And that's largely because of their governments and of their past. And also because there's still a rule that leads financially by the imperial powers and those are mainly their old imperial powers like France and England, Belgium and so forth. And I'm not saying that, I don't think Eric is either, that they go around saying that they would vote for Putin is just that they don't trust the Western powers to do anything decent for them because that's not the history yet. And so when the Russians and the Chinese do come to Africa as in Latin America, they don't come with a heavy hand of history or with the kinds of exploitation, at least not the history at this point of absolute exploitation. And so naturally they're not anti Russia. I guess that's the simplest thing, but I'll ask Eric to comment on that. Yeah. The countries over there, there's a strong desire for freedom that has been a sandwich or blocked by the former colonial powers because it will change the dynamic. For example, if I take the example of the Ivory Coast, the Ivory Coast at some point, you know, a leadership like by the socialists over there wanting to renegotiate the treaties with France to have more leverage on their own resources, result is they were sent mercenaries to topple them down. So the deficit of democracy over there is not due to a lack of desire by the people, but it is crushed. Most of the 15 countries that are ruled by France in West Africa have the leaders chosen by France. You can't be a president in the Francophone sphere if you don't have the blessing of France. And most of the time, he went against the people, but our friend is right. And then that's the danger. That's why I said we have to calm down and find a way to preserve because the US is not only an auger. The US also brings ideals of democracy and ideas of civil culture, but he has to be done in such a way that these people don't have to choose Uttan over human rights or the US. It means that the US has to stop only sending condoms to countries that are believed to be doomed to have AIDS. And the US has to do serious business, not to come with a few million dollars just to, I don't know, but we have to be serious about that. We have to be able to also... But we also bring weapons over there, don't we? But for example, what the countries over there have against the US that doesn't have any colonial history is that the US, through its alliance with France, condone the fact that France is still having 15 countries over there on the next rule. So they make it easy to blame the US as a friend of the French. How can the US come say, okay, we want democracy, we want human rights and let a colonial power still screw, I mean, take all the resources of a country and not even being able to have these people have electricity. Sharon, anything further? No, I understood his point about the past rule. I am not a historian, so I needed to be educated about the fact that these countries still select your leaders, which I didn't realize, which I think is unfortunate and not necessary, but I don't rule the world. But that was another piece that was missing for me. This has been a very important conversation for me to understand how complicated the world is, and you've really helped me take a step in understanding that. It doesn't make the situation any easier. I think it makes it more complicated. Can I just ask one other question? I didn't really understand. So as far as the Ukrainian people, is there any feeling of empathy for them or not? I just didn't understand that piece. Probably. I mean, you've got to understand, Sharon, too, these people know what war is like, so of course they have empathy with all people who are under the gun by foreign powers because they have been, for centuries, the African people, the people of Latin America have been the victims of US and Western European militarization and wars. So yes, they have a great, and I do, too. What I think our argument here is or are beginning to understand is that Ukraine is the battlefield upon which the superpowers are playing out their agendas. And it's the Ukrainian people who of course are suffering the most. Yes. I mean, the same way I think they have, you know, and then this is also a danger, you know, so that like you are so bitter that you cannot have the normal, you know, empathy for those who are suffering. But we don't have the right to let it go that way. What I'm saying is like, even at the beginning of the war, we've seen on TV all around the world, you know, refugees, African refugees that were trying to flee from the Japanese that were blocked by, you know, some guys in Ukraine. It's not the Ukrainian government, but you know, even in Europe, some refugees, some African students that were in Ukraine tried to get to Europe to have the same right as the Ukrainian refugees, they were refused that. I remember that. Thanks to the social media, you have like these small portions of information that are coming to you, you know, to you. Naturally, you know, you know, you will be, you know, reacting that way. We need to have a fair word for all and then we do that work here. I'm so proud to be here while it's happening. Now it has to translate into the foreign policy because Black lives don't matter only in the U.S. I agree. All lives matter everywhere in the world. If we have the courage to, you know, face the past that have been an outrageous past, we agree about that. But not only for political reason and then to tame down the anger of, you know, some minorities here. It has to be applied everywhere. How can an African, you know, I mean, how can, even as an African American, I would doubt the fact that Black like mother would doubt that assertion. If I look in Yemen, I look at people being, you know, if I look at Zimbabwe, I look at people being treated like us. So we have to. I wonder if I could just address Sharon, another aspect of Sharon's question. I've actually spent a good deal of time in Latin America. I've been to Venezuela about six times, a couple of times in Bolivia and so forth in Argentina. I can tell you that the role of the sanctions in particular in Venezuela, these are on completely false pretenses. The elections, I've been there during elections actually, they have elections which are certainly is perhaps more reliable than ours. I think that their system is really pretty foolproof and it's, and yet our country has consistently, one of their reasons is a completely fake reason for sanctions on Venezuela that the elections are false. And as a matter of fact, our country is promoting and recognizes as a president, a guy who has never elected anything like president. He's a complete fake. He's actually been, it's quite, that he's a scandal at this point because he and his gang are been stealing millions of dollars. He has almost zero credibility in Venezuela, but we're insisting that he is a legitimate, our government is insisting he's a legitimate president of Venezuela. He's a lapping stock in Latin America. We back and so on. So all of the sanctions are really not to bring about any kind of human rights or anything like that. It's really about gaining control over the resources and putting puppets into power. And I can tell you, I go into great lengths, which are obviously not appropriate at this point, to tell you that the sanctions are really from the Latin American point of view. I can't speak to others, but they're based on false pretenses and they're really very evil. They're killing, literally killing people and people turn in Russia to Russia and China. Venezuela got to vaccines. They were blockaded. We were, they were not, they would not be, could not be bought from the United States. The United States was keeping them from getting vaccines, but Cuba, Russia and China sent them vaccines. That's the ugly thing we're doing there. Thank you, Peter, because that's I think what really Peter, thank you a lot because that again it points out why the real world or a lot of the world does not support the NATO position and they look to other countries as more sympathetic to their real needs like Russia and China. And the old imperial powers, as Eric pointed out, are losing credibility I think everywhere in really in the black and brown world. It's an essential to understand that our media go along with all this. I read in the New York Times and Washington Post just blatant lies, things that I know from being from seeing on the ground what's going on. They're just plain lying and they're building a case so that we can, we can attack these countries through sanctions, kill people through starvation and deprivation, wreck their economies and our media go along with it. And I must say that I've been following, I've actually been looking at media from other countries with regard to Ukraine. And without going into detail, I can say that much of the reporting is so incredibly biased and one-sided and I believe though I can, as the authority I can about that in America, I believe that much of it is just plain lies. I've been a reporter for one of these media outlets and I followed the war and I because my own country, I know my papers were changed overnight just to be aligned with the good news from the, you know, the community powers, you know? So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the brainwashing, you know, people to try to manufacture these, you know, even like today you go on Uber, I'm not doing any advertising. As soon as you, you ask for a ride, there's a, there's a message, would you donate to Ukraine? Would you donate to Ukraine? Not explain to me what's going on in Ukraine. Why should I donate? But, you know, just donate. So it's like manufacturing that empathy for Ukraine and they're doing it very well because at the end of the day, it's the same. You go to France, it's the same oligarchs from France that own all the media. It's the same thing, same thing like here. And then the liberals, the progressive here in the US are playing the same game. They're playing the same game. Okay. Are there any, we're kind of running out of time and I wanted to give every, any, somebody else an opportunity to say something or have other questions. Anybody? Sandy Nancy has her hand up. Okay. Nancy. Thank you, Nancy. Thanks. Well, thank you. I just want to make a quick comment about the sanctions. That's to me another way of making war. The other thing is my limited understanding of Ukraine is in 2013 and 14, the US was over there and helped and changed their government. Right. So I think Zelensky is possibly a puppet and we're sending more weapons to the Ukraine. So it just seems like we're there to make war and the news says, oh, Russia was unprovoked. Well, I don't think they were unprovoked. But anyway, that's just a couple things I was wondering about. I think that was, that's really great, Nancy, that you said that because the media puts forth the note and this is why we're doing this tonight. And we probably should keep doing it. The media is putting forth the notion, the mad man theory of history, that Putin's a mad man and that we have to get to war against that person. While it might be, while Putin did, in fact, enter Ukraine with weapons and is making war there at this moment, there are not, there are reasons for that. I continually say that and then people say I'm a Putin puppet. All I'm saying there are reasons that this has happened that are separate from the fact of Putin's personality. And I thank you for bringing that point up. Are there any final thoughts or questions? Thank you, Nancy. And thank you all for being here. Anybody else before we end? Thank you. Thank you very much. And hopefully we'll see you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you.