 Welcome back everybody. I hope you're refreshed for our final session here, novel interactions. I'm really excited to welcome you back for this part of the day. We have an exciting group here talking again remotely. We have Aaron Brandenburg who's a director with Kitchen Band Theater and one of my co-teachers for the Albion Library Branch VR project and then we also have PhD candidate in the history department and archaeologist Harrison Forsythe talking from a slightly different perspective which I'm really excited to share with you today and then David Hahn who I met incidentally at the Fiverr's exhibition a few weeks ago who outfitted me to do After Dan Graham before I knew who he was. I'm really excited that we're sharing the stage today and then Anna Cursureno who's from Parkway Forest Park Friends Group and she was a wonderful collaborator with us last summer when we did a workshop at Parkway Forest Park and then finally we have faculty and cinema media arts Tae-un Chan talking about Stratigraphic City. So first I'd like to introduce Aaron Brandenburg who will again emerge from the ether. I did it again! Good to go. You ready to go? Thank you for having me how wonderful it's been to hear all the speakers today. I've been listening in and it's just great to hear from everybody all the inspiring ideas and also shared challenges for working in this VR medium. I'm gonna talk a little bit about today about a project called the Albion VR project. Like I mentioned we are working in a library so this project is funded through the artists in the libraries program through the Toronto Arts Council and through the Toronto Public Library and basically our project is to create a public VR installation that happens in the library spaces in the public spaces and the project is to lead community participants through I think we have 14 week sessions teaching them how to think and create and film and edit other VR pieces and the idea being that we're filming these pieces in 360 video and they will be digitally located in the spaces in the library so that once the project is complete the public will be able to come in to the library spaces and through an interactive map access these films 360 experiences and the idea being that the library is a place that is curated with stories and history and facts that have been put together we wanted to try to tell the story of this community in a way that's coming back from them and talk about what's important to them at the library and talk about who the people are that use this space so the Albion library is located in North Etobicoke of the city of Toronto it's part of Rexdale it's a very diverse community and this particular branch is one of the newest branches of the Toronto Public Library and actually has amazing facilities I'm in one of their study rooms right now that I think there are five or six of them located in the branch there's also it has a digital technology hub it has a makers room that has a fully equipped video studio film editing suites and it's really an amazing space that is so well used by this community it's about to be after school right now and this library is about to be packed with youth from the community we actually did one of our filmed experiences here last week where we were filming in the youth hub and after school there were probably 70 youth packs into this room all using the equipment facilities video games playing games accessing study equipment and so the project is is kind of a mix of we want to hear from our participants in what stories they're interested in telling about their community and also a way for us to reflect back but is how the library is being used and yeah how the community accesses the space so we're right in the middle of the project at the moment I think we're on session 8 of 14 all together and Justine has been teaching our participants along with me and Ian has been also teaching a toaster lab has been our technology partner for this and surprising to us we anticipated that most of our participants would be youth who might be interested in this and who are also interested in technology but our participants have actually come from seniors in the community and older adults who are just interested in learning about technology so that's been really great because we get a different perspective on technology and how it's used and how you can use it for storytelling I think for my company kitchen bands is a performance creation company we work with a lot of different kinds of media and in different communities and so this project is really an opportunity for me to learn I guess how to use VR as a storytelling tool and so yeah we've been really lucky to work with with toaster lab on that as our partners and we are right in the middle of figuring out how to make this whole project work so yes I can update you later on how it goes let's I don't know which time I have left yeah I think you have a few more minutes if you there's anything else you want to say Aaron or yeah I think like one of the challenges of working on this piece is obviously it's in a public area we the staff of it really great here you know we pitch the project as being we want to film in the library well it's open and while people are using it so I'm trying to coordinate you know how people feel about being on camera and trying to explain this idea of what virtual reality is to people when you're trying to get them on camera has been has been interesting and even trying to explain the idea of the project that this isn't we're not making a movie I mean we are we're making some kind of a movie but it's really about trying to capture what it's like in this particular place at this particular moment and share a different perspective with people so we've also written an effort to try and get as many ideas from the community as possible where we've been talking with the staff and they've been super helpful we've also been talking about the history of this area and I think a library is a space that that I know I love using it and this particular space is so well used by the community it can sometimes be hard to see a space that you use in a functional way as a place of magic or as a place of unexpected that will show you something unexpected but I think that's exactly what libraries do so I'm hoping with this project we'll be able to kind of I mean what I'm interested in the story teller is how how do you show the layers in the story right how do you combine design and music and projections and whatever tools you have in order to show something makes you question what you are so I think virtual reality and specifically in creating in a space where we're seeing the unexpected and also the very ordinary in a way that lets people will be filming with our cameras this week and next week and hopefully all goes well we will be able to put a lot of effort into trying to script and create with our participants and something that they find meaningful and and then we'll put it together for the public later on in December so if you're around come and check it out thanks thank you so much Erin and Erin will be available for questions towards the end to I think one of the things that I've loved working about with Erin and Ian on this project is coming up with really like a novel curriculum that kind of extends over a reasonable amount of time rather than like a you know this is a camera kind of crash course is really even able to take our time and work with the participants to come up with original stories for folks who have not really had a chance to use this material and equipment before I'm very pleased to introduce the sage Harrison Forsyth talking about his stark 3d hello thanks a lot for having me here today my name is Harrison Forsyth I'm a PhD candidate in the history department at York University and today I'm here to discuss how augmented reality is an ideal medium for allowing students in the public to engage with ancient artifacts in this case Roman funerary inscriptions or tombstones in new and exciting ways I was hoping to have a working prototype of my new newest application here today but it requires me to do a 3d scan of a Roman inscription that's currently at the Royal Ontario Museum and I'm still need to do a whole bunch of paperwork in order to have access to that so I'm gonna have to sort of speak by analogy or through analogy using this PowerPoint but just a little bit about my background before we get started my background is in Roman archaeology and I work on several ongoing excavations that take place in Spain and Italy and I specialize in a process called photogrammetry so that's taking a series of photographs and making 3d scans of the artifacts that we excavate and also the environments that we're excavating so these are photorealistic in ideal terms usually and in recent years because part of my duties as a PhD candidate are teaching I've also taken an interest in using VR and AR as a teaching tool in the classroom so I've developed several programs that bring the material that I scan in the fields into the classroom for the sake of teaching students about archaeology so some of the examples of this might include this program that I designed in collaboration with University of Victoria for teaching students how to interpret archaeological stratigraphy so this is in the HTC Vive platform I also created a mobile app that allows students to explore and learn about the Lucanian tombs at Rocca Gloriosa in southern Italy so in this case students can navigate the site engage with the environment and learn information about the contents of the tombs the process of excavation etc. I've also had students construct a Roman city using Unity 3D I only gave them a three-hour crash course in how to organize game objects they didn't really get into the coding but they were able to create this Roman city and present their their creation to each other in virtual reality discussing the context of all the buildings so despite all of this previous work that I've done in using VR technology I've now sort of turned my focus to augmented reality and how this can be used in order to teach ancient history and archaeology archaeology with 3d models in AR so the goal of my current project that's in process is to create an augmented reality application that allows users to visualize manipulate and learn about Roman funerary inscriptions in new and exciting ways so ancient tombstones are quite archaeologically unique since they both have they have both a visual and a textual component to them so you don't only have the object but you have somebody who wrote this is why I made this object and this is why it's here and these are the people who are involved so there's a lot of information that can be taken from one tombstone so some of the features that I hope to include on this or that I have to a certain extent in my early iterations are to allow for a 3d photo scan of a Roman tombstone to be viewed and manipulated using a phone camera and an optical reference so that you can place it on any surface so that object would be attached to like a QR code for example there they're just really easy to work with also I hope to have points of interest on the tombstone on the actual 3d model that can be highlighted to provide details via a text overlay so these would include most importantly a translation of the Latin text information about the people mentioned and also information about the world in which they lived so this is taking specifics and then getting general about it so that it's more accessible to an audience of individuals who want to learn about this type of archaeological material so all of this will allow for complex linguistic and visual subject matter to be accessible to students in the public I have started experimenting with some of my 3d models using augmented reality with the view for yet SDK and here this is a very this is the first 3d model I ever made so please excuse its crudity but in any case so to a certain extent it to if you're looking at a photograph or even if you're viewing something that's in a glass case so it really sort of breaks down that and hopefully in this case it would encourage people to go to the museum and engage more with this type of material so the funeral inscription that I plan on us in any case as you can see there's a visual element to it and there's a textual element to it even though the textual element isn't incredibly clear so since I assume that most people are the spirits of the departed eight years ten months and mark made this tombstone for him this so some of these so we know this is from the late first century or second century CE also you can learn a lot of we have based on their names we know that they're actually probably freed slaves so this this person is a first generation of the first freeborn generation of a conjugal couple and so that also brings up a lot of issues of the nuances of sociopolitical status and all of these things now of course all of these details require context but what emerges here is a snapshot of a Roman family and while many of the specifics of their life are unclear the little minutiae much of their experiences are actually rooted in general information that we know about daily life in the Roman world and so in this respect augmented reality is an excellent way to supplement the specific information with more of the general information that allows a broader audience of students to engage with funerary inscriptions so this addresses a serious issue of accessibility on several levels so using this as an analogy if the app were finished let's just assume that this is the 3d model and it's been highly a particular part of it's been highlighted one could view the 3d model in their home or in the classroom using an optical reference like a QR code and they could highlight parts of the text or the object with a translation of what the text means and supplemental information about that so in this example we have the name of the deceased and additional information is given about each of the deceased's names because Roman naming practices are very particular and completely different from typical Indo-European naming practices which again is another lecture so for example again another area that could be highlighted again the invocation to the de manes what does this mean so this text overlay imagine that this is on the camera of your phone would give all of this sort of supplemental information about the religious significance of that etc again so those are the textual elements and then there's also visual elements that could be commented on right so this could be what types of building materials were used to build the tombstone artistic motifs and overall the general design of the object itself so what are the benefits of this one of the main benefits of studying Roman funerary inscriptions in AR is you get a sense of immersion in scale that you wouldn't otherwise get from a photograph or an object that might not be that might not be generally accessible and again it makes artifacts more accessible so they're viewable at home or in the classroom and in other cases a lot of museums tend to have a lot of their material talked away in the basement they can't put everything out so this is even a way for museums to encourage people to engage with material by making the things that aren't available accessible to the public it's also more engaging from a human perspective there's something very emotional about reading a tombstone no matter what era it comes from or what context the same thing with viewing ancient materials so in any case that's sort of my pitch for this for this application that I'm working on and I just want to thank everybody for coming here and thanks for the opportunity David Han talking about after Dan Graham and David is a PhD student in the Department of Cinema and Media Arts here at York hey thanks for coming thanks to Toaster Lab just Ian for inviting me and thanks to sensorium and York for hosting this symposium my name is David Han and I'm an immediate artist educator and PhD student here at York my doctoral research creation work explores the poetics of VR using an experimental structuralist approach informed by media arts from the 60s and 70s it's research that's supported by the social sciences and humanities Research Council of Canada and today I'm going to be discussing my latest work after Dan Graham with a focus on how I view the work through the lens of research creation so I'm going to start with a brief description of the work along with a brief description of the work this work is based on and I'll touch on how I believe this work of research creation generates knowledge just what kind of knowledge that might be and why that knowledge might be valuable for helping us think through or understand the kinds of challenges posed by the immersive media technology we've been talking about today so after Dan Graham is a mixed reality art installation and experimental virtual reality experience the project was born out of a desire to investigate the poetics of VR and seeks to examine the creative potential inherent in VR's ability to create affective kinesthetic experiences I'm wondering if we could run that video the first one the installation takes place inside a single room which is empty say for four monitors two mounted on one side and the other two mounted on the opposite side maybe we should just pause that it's a little nausea the installation takes place inside a single room the single participant is invited to put on a VR headset carry two hand controllers and put on VR trackers on both their waist and their feet and inside the virtual reality environment the participant is placed inside the body of a featureless humanoid avatar whose movements correspond directly to the movement of the participant looking around they see a recreation of Dan Graham's video art installation time delay room one and every 16 seconds after the VR experience begins a new virtual agent spawns in the initial location of the participant and as shown what you're looking at here is this virtual agent that spawns looks identical to the participant's avatar and its movements are based on the movement of the participant on a 16 second delay so over time the room becomes populated with a crowd of virtual agents all echoing the past movements of the VR participant wonderful thank you those outside of the virtual environment not wearing the headset are free to move around the installation and observe both the VR participant and the four monitors these monitors display the same images as the four monitors inside the virtual environment so two of them are showing a live camera feed of the virtual environment and two are showing those same feeds but on an 8-second delay and in this way these monitors provide or sort of windows into the virtual environment an environment that sort of exists as a virtual palimpsest of the actual environment in front of them the installation is on which this work is based is time delay room one a closed circuit video installation created by American artist Dan Graham in 1974 and as seen in this illustration the installation featured two identical rooms each surveilled by closed circuit video camera cameras A and B and in each room were two monitors one monitor displayed the real-time video feed of the other room the other monitor displayed the video feed of the current room on an 8-second delay in time delay room one Dan Graham explored the unique ability of video to capture transmit and display real-time moving images he was interested in the way that the unique temporality of video as instantiated in this sort of closed circuit video feedback loop could be employed to alter a person's sense of self-perception and so he writes if a perceiver views this behavior on a five to eight second delay via videotape so his responses are part of and influencing his perception private mental intention and external behavior is fed back on the monitor and immediately influences the observers future intentions and behavior by linking perception of exterior behavior and its interior mental perception and observers self like a topological mobius strip can be apparently without inside or outside video feedback time is the immediate present without relation to past and hypothetical future states a continuous topological or feedback loop forward or backward between just past and immediate present and I think this is a familiar feeling for anyone who's ever gone money at the bank machine you see yourself on the camera and there's this sort of moment where it's you're sort of inside and out of your side yourself at the same time I think that's sort of what he's describing here so Graham argues that the unique ability of a closed circuit television system to externalize a perception of ourselves results in the collapse of interior mental perception and exterior behavior and this creates a sort of unique form of temporality that he calls video feedback time in time delay room one he pushed this unique temporality into the physical space of the gallery so what we're seeing here is a documentation of an installation of this of Graham's original work at ZKM in 2001 in doing so it only became activated in the presence of a participant and this created conditions under which the collapse of subject and object interior and exterior private and public could only be understood through the participants embodied presence in writing about closed circuit video installation aren't media theorist Margaret Morse argues that the extension of the temporality of the video apparatus into physical space is the raison d'etre of this type of art she says while an installation can be diagrammed photographed videotaped or described in language it's crucial element is miss ultimately missing from any such two-dimensional construction that is the space in between or the actual construction of a passage for bodies or figures in space and time indeed I argue the part that collapses whenever the installation isn't installed is the art and Morse argues that the affective experience of closed circuit video installation art lies not in the content of the medium but rather in the encounter of medium and body and she concludes that the underlying premise of the installation appears to be that the audio visual experience supplemented kinesthetically can be a kind of learning not with the mind alone but with the body itself and that this learning occurs at the level of the body ego and its orientation in space and it's this kind of learning this kind of embodied knowledge that the research emerging from after Dan Graham produces in that sense it's much different than the kind of knowledge that other more traditional research methods might produce writing about this difference in the kind of knowledge that research creation produces media archaeologist Wolfgang Ernst writes academic media theory brings out the epistemological surplus which is dormant within media technologies knowledge needs to become explicit in order to become reflective and this primarily takes place in the medium of verbal text the classical cultural technology as practiced in universities different from that logo centrist application of knowledge there is implicit knowledge and here he's making a reference to Michael Polly Annie's idea of tacit knowledge and this knowledge stays in a kind of latency within within the media artistic practice can evoke this implicit episteme to create affective forms of insight but both academics and artists must be tuned in the right way to be able to resonate with that knowledge and I really like this quote because I think it speaks to what happens in after Dan Graham I see this work as creating the conditions for participants to both consider the implicit or tacit knowledge rooted in their very own bodies by confronting them with that data they impart through the use of the VR technology and so this is the third clip if we can play it hopefully it won't be great on this latter point the pro on this latter point the project's use of the feedback loop to incarnate a participant's corporeal data in the form of a population of virtual agents expands subjectivity beyond the participants virtual body into a multiplicity of exterior observable bodies foregrounding the internal operations and unique temporality of the VR apparatus and making evident the corporeal data that is the very foundation of VR indeed the data collected by the surveillance of the body of the participant is fundamental to the creation of the illusion of immersion within the virtual environment we simply cannot have VR without this data this also suggests that the structuralist approaches of the artists of the 60s and 70s whose work foregrounded the materiality and temporality of the time-based media with which they worked are important perhaps even vital for understanding contemporary emerging media technology furthermore after Dan Graham virtually recreates what Morse called the space in between offered by the original artwork the multiple virtual agents that populate the virtual environment are felt as much as they are seen and echoing Morse's sentiment regarding the closed circuit installation art of the 60s and 70s the part that collapses whenever the VR headset is taken off is the art and this position's closed circuit video installation art is a sort of proto VR and suggests that the affective potential of VR lies not solely in what is represented but rather in the encounter between body and media content thanks if you like to see those video clips that are not stuttering you can go and check us out on the online thanks thank you so much next I'm happy to introduce hello again I'm happy to introduce my friend Anna Cicereno who's from the Friends of Parkway Forest Park to come join me to talk about our Parkway Forest Park VR project hi everyone so just in mentioned my name is Anna and I'm part of Friends of Parkway Forest Park and actually the image that was on the screen just a few minutes ago that was taken in my backyard so if you close your eyes you can really pretend that you're in our community so today yeah that's the one I can't remember the name of the artist but the colors there's a lot of these poles around the community and they represent that you know any community it's it's composed of all colors of the world so that was a good sculpture and anyway today I wanted to talk about a project that's called that was part of Arts in the Parks and if you're not familiar about what Arts in the Park is it's a program that is sponsored by the city of Toronto through taxpayers money that is produced from construction sites and there are all around Toronto and actually around this area we've been having construction for the past maybe seven years or so so all that money that is collected from this construction site actually gets and but it's being placed back into the community to animate the community to make people happy and engaged and so Arts in the Parks is sponsored through this funding by City of Toronto and is managed by the Toronto Arts Foundation and Toronto Arts Council in collaboration with Park People and Park People is a charity that has started in Toronto and now today is actually nationwide they help groups like ours so community groups like ours to animate parks so they help us put on events like park cleanups, Arts in the Parks, also community consultations so let's say if there's another construction project going on in the community they will help us get the community together and talk about how can we revitalize the park how can we add amenities to the park that would be beneficial to the entire community so these are very great resources to have for communities because not everyone knows how to reach out to all these resources so Park People along with Toronto Arts Council and Toronto Arts Foundation work together to put together these Arts in the Parks programs and Justine and Ian as part of Toaster Lab they were granted to come to our park to put on these events and artistic engagements and I think the program started about four years ago and every year about 33 artist groups get sponsored to put on events in about 23 parks across Toronto so during the summer period you can go to any parks it's all free of charge so you can go and enjoy amazing artistic programs so Toaster Lab our park was actually selected from the beginning from the pilot and when it started four years ago and every year we had the opportunity to work with artists or different artists groups to put on events in our park and I can tell you very honestly that working with Toaster Labs it was an amazing experience because a lot of the times and I think even during the session before it was brought up the idea of consult consulting the community or consulting the indigenous groups or consulting the people that actually live in the in the area about what kind of programs you want to us to want to put on and Toaster Labs was amazing to work with because even before they actually applied for the funding they came to us and they were like hey we have this idea what would you like to do or would you have any ideas where should we locate it what are the best times that you guys can attend our events because we realized that you also have other events that you put on during the year so it was a great collaboration from the sense of being included so today I wanted to actually touch up on three amazing learnings that I actually got to experience in working with Toaster Lab and first one I just mentioned is really including the people from the start and asking for a people's opinion for example everyone goes through their community walks from through their community they understand what are some of the groups that are more isolated than others a lot of the community groups for example we have a what's up group where we there's about 500 people that are on this what's up group and everyone helps each other so if there's a person starting a new business or a person needing some extra cash to rent out a place everyone posts on this what's up group and you have the whole community coming together to help each other so when you're coming into the community of putting on an event you may not know that these community virtual communities exist so I'm being connected to someone in the community from the start it's very important because you can get quick access to Dean talk to a group a large group of people from the beginning the second learning is that it was really nice how Toaster Lab for example they made it about the users so the event was a workshop series of four days for kids to learn how to use VR technology and to put on a theater play and also to show community members their theater play so over these two weeks two weekends they learn how to use the technology shot the movie then they put it together and then they taught they showed it to the entire community and kids the kids were doing everything and they loved it they came up with the idea what to shoot they came up with how to work together in groups they were the ones who were trusted with the technology so I remember you and saying oh you guys you have to be very careful don't put it in the sun and you know it's sometimes it's very scary to let an eight-year-old you know deal with all this high-tech but it was so great to get to allow them to to fully trust them with the technology and also to fully trust them with explaining what they're doing and you if you were there you you could see their smiles and how excited they were to show just random people passing by what they did during that two week doing that two weekend workshop and then the third the third learning that I drove from this experience was to really be flexible and manage things as you go along it from my experience in participating community projects stuff happens all the time and sometimes no matter how much planning you do it doesn't go your way so for example sometimes facilities may be closed sometimes maybe not everyone shows up at the same time you have to be flexible the one learning that I really loved was for example a majority of the kids were about eight to three maybe twelve years old but there was one one girl who was about a 16 years old and maybe for us because we're like past that age a 12 year old with a 16 year old they look kind of the same or they act the same but actually for them it's a huge difference so the 16 year old wanted to be part of the group and felt included but at the same time wanted to feel different so you saw when you looked at the whole workshop you saw like the little kids working together and the 16 year old hanging in a tree looking down on them and then experiencing the event from a different perspective but what I liked about Toaster Lab was that actually they catered the learning experience to both to include her as well so they noticed that you know what this kid has a different has different needs or likes enjoys different things so they're like okay what do you want to do so they it was never a prescriptive event so I really enjoyed that because you can see how they're able to adapt as they went along and actually made the whole experience much more enriching for everyone and inclusive so that's about it thank you I'm gonna jump in on the presentation and yeah you can sit down if you want oh I wanted to show a couple more slides from that one if we could go back to it okay no worries so here's the youth doing some warm-ups in the community center and as you can see like that looks just like a stick but it is a 360 camera that a child is holding there on a monopod and we got some really incredible footage that the kids were like creative and really reckless with the camera is at the same time but it also made for some like stunning footage that we would have never been like bold enough to do like dragging the camera through the grass which created incredible like very animalistic experience and as Anna said that at the end of the workshop on the second weekend we had a pop-up VR cinema here and this is what she was talking about where the the kids actually were providing the instruction to the adults to their family members and community members about how to use the oculus go headsets that they learned how to use which was really fun the movies themselves the videos that the children produced were like a wildly varying quality but that was completely immaterial anytime you watch like a home movie of your family or if your kids you're gonna love it no matter what so the kids had a great time they learned about the material and the equipment they felt confident about sharing it with their family members too and then at the end of the summer we were able to create working with Andrew a using the map tool as a web app a basically like a web app version of the videos of this the kids had created so we were able to provide headsets to the community so versions of Google Cardboards to everyone for free and we coincided it with a larger cinema event that was already scheduled for the park so it was really exciting was a fun way to see the kids again this was the end of the summer we did the workshop in July and then this was in August that we were finally able to share it and here's a here's our friend Ian looking very pleased the hour for the masses but everyone had a great time because there's a lot of 360 videos that you can watch if you only have this cardboard so it was really wonderful to get the funding to be able to share this this is a quick walkthrough of the web app here so the videos that the kids created were then geolocated just within the park and so you were able to locate adventure story and they had a lot of fun coming up with the stories for their for their shows too so it was a really fun project and we had such a great collaboration and it was really wonderful to be able to be like present and open to what the community wanted and it was like at times extremely challenging as Anna said because the facilities and working with folks in in an extremely hot it was like a record-breaking heat wave on the first weekend and the kids were troopers they just wanted freezes and it was fine so yeah thank you and we we have strata Jeff stratigraphic city from faculty and so many media arts member and Chan oh at last I'm here so my name is Tane in Chan I'm teaching media arts here cinema in media arts department and I'm going to talk about my work stratigraphic city which is a site-specific work that has been shown in about three different places so far so there it is and so I'm going to just see all right so it was originally presented at the annual of contemporary art in Windsor the art gallery of Windsor in 2017-2018 and so because it is site-specific it's basically a tabletop diorama with video projection on it and then it's interactive using a connect depth sensor and programming with max nsp so here's a little video from the opening play that I'll just talk over it as it plays I guess if it's gonna play oh yep so none of the video does does any of the video play okay well I'll just talk while they see if any of the videos play so I'll just go back here if you can see it actually in action anyway so it is interactive and you basically move your hand over the table to reveal the different layers of the video map projection so I'll show you the different layers of it so this is the projection that's on the table at the when you first encounter the table and it's just blank and it's sort of the idea of a blank city like when you first encounter a city and you don't know anything about it right it's just a blank map and what is the first thing that you do when you go to a city and you don't know anything about it well generally you Google it right so you're the Google map layer is like your your first encounter with any place and so that is the Google map layer there and so that is like the first layer of the the three the three layers and then the second layer and you won't be able to see so here if you if you could see the video it would be the all the information that comes up when you Google a city and it's usually touristic information right it's where to eat generally what things that you do and so it's all text that would be flying over the this map the weather you know hotel tourist information and then on this layer if it was working you would see little images of the city so the idea of the city image all the things that you know generally they are landmarks the skitties the city skyline things like that so the digital image of that city and you would see the little images flying around this video that you can't see and then this the final layer and so these these are different layers over the map right so depending on where you you interact with the the installation the lowest level would be the the Google map layer the second layer would be like the the city image layer and then the very top and generally I have to go on my tippy toes to get to that layer is the poetic and personal layer and so on this layer I would have you know poems that I have written about the city or little hand-drawn animations that would fly in and out of the the topmost layer and then you would be able to you know over here you would be able to interact with all three layers you could actually play the city that's the idea of swirling all these different layers together and it's pretty fun you can see the kids really like it and so that was the Windsor the first iteration and then I also showed it at the art gallery of Hamilton the Hamilton now objects show so there's you can see the the table and all the different there are little sculptures made out of plaster and then the very center of the map which is the where you are now it actually I use 3d printing to create a little model of the actual place so it's like you know the very center of the city is the most detailed and then as you move out it gets more and more abstract and then all the little sculptures are made from food item packaging right that you would find at the grocery store so it's on a kitchen table so the idea of the mundane and the everyday in city life and so when I showed this piece in Hamilton I'm part of this artist collective called the Hamilton perambulatory unit and or the HPU for short and we do walks around you know site specific site specificity and we have a very strata walk is one of our methodologies that we use right so so for the Hamilton show the HPU had held workshops where we had the strata walk and we had we would leave these workshops around the art gallery and people would map this different strata so the idea of the strata again is the layers of the city that make up a place and so we have things like the sign strata right identified the text architectural strata non-human animal strata inanimate strata so plants rocks the pre-urban strata so imagine what was there without resorting to you know untamed wilderness electrical strata so trace the power lines where does the electricity come from shiny strata like look for things that are shiny and where does the light come from maybe you want to draw that attraction strata so it's kind of taking from the the situation is deriv and noticing what repulses you and what is attractive to you the olfactory strata audio strata speculative strata tactile strata what is what do things feel like maybe you want to make rubbings storied strata you know the strata are really infinite right we can let you go on forever cinematic strata rhythm strata which kind of takes from on really faves rhythm analysis and if you're in a group you want to be great to this is how we do it we designate different strata so that everyone can focus on something different and so these are some of the maps that we came up with for the Hamilton the Hamilton walks so this somebody here has mapped birds right so we know that there's like peregrine falcons that were close by they have a nest and they actually have a little camera that you can see them all the time she's noticed birds chirping birds flying through the garages this is a graffiti strata that one of the kids did so we just notice all the graffiti as we were walking around the art gallery this one is color strata so what kind of colors on our walk somebody did rubbings with leaves that they found here again drawn trees were actually like the most common thing that people wanted to do trees and plants we had a lot of those kinds of maps this one I really love is a Wi-Fi networks right so as you're walking you can see what Wi-Fi networks pop up and you know on that that Wi-Fi map which is really lovely and you know really funny kind of things like I don't know one of them I think was like get your own Wi-Fi right and so so all of these unfortunately we can't see it in action right now but this video would have shown you know it's an inaction of seeing all these different layers integrated together and so for the Hamilton one what I did for the third layer which was the the presentation or the poetic layer is I integrated all these maps that the participants did into that third layer so they could see it integrated into the the whole sculpture and then I did it I also did at the Lumen Festival in Waterloo and which was really interesting because like in an art gallery people are kind of conditioned not to touch the art and in fact we had to put up a sign saying please wave your hand over the sculpture so that that's how you interact it because interact with it because you know it wasn't obvious to people at first but at the Lumen Festival all the artworks it's all about projection and light and everything was interactive and so so the kids just thought everybody just thought oh you play with the the buildings themselves so we had a volunteer say no no don't don't play with the buildings for about an hour like don't don't touch the buildings don't touch the buildings and finally we're just like oh screw it touch the buildings whatever right and then it changed the how people thought of it because then they thought that the buildings were what were triggering the light projections and not just the movement in the hands so I was like oh that's interesting how you know people think of you know how to interact with with the work itself and like if you I think that the the the documentation is on my website which is soyfishmedia.com if you actually want to see the videos working and also we have a Hamilton Perambulatory Unit with all those projects on there and ah that's it I'm out of time thank you all right and I guess I might as well stay up here because I'm going to moderate the discussion so if I could get all my fellow panelists up here and we can have our question period so does anybody want to start with questions for our panel here anyone anyone it's kind of hard to see anyone out there ah great in the back hello I'm just curious about the scanning of objects I think it was when you scan in objects can you do that like with an iPad or something in real time or does it have to be done in advance or something like that okay yeah so there's different ways there are applications for doing photogrammetry that use cloud computing such as Trinio and things that could that basically will use phone cameras I've been doing this for a number of years so when I started the DSLR camera is usually your best bet one with the largest sensor possible and usually 24 millimeters is like a really good focal focal length like the photo the the program that I use is Aggie soft photo scan so it has like certain conditions that are ideal when you're trying to do a photo scan I would have gone through the process but I just it's in 10 minutes I couldn't really get too much into photogrammetry but it's really interesting and so now so I was talking to the excavation director of one of the digs that I that I do some photogrammetry work for and when he did the data collection for this season's excavation he had already processed a model and he said oh I took these with an iPhone 6 s so you can actually use that those types of cameras that you typically find on a smartphone even on an iPhone 6 s which is a relatively aged phone by this by this point I guess so yeah mobile phone technology is definitely usable I still use a DS DSLR though because I don't know it's more fun all right any other questions out there I have a question to get some stuff going sorry David I really liked your some of the quotes that you pulled out right in relation to your work and with research creation which I really understand as a process of you know what kind of knowledge does art produce that that is not produced in any other method right and this is the kind of question for everybody as well but you were saying that the audience have to know how to resonate with how you approach the work like the idea of resonance and and so how much do you need to teach audiences how to do this because all this is new technology and sometimes people are like they don't get it or they're scared to maybe put a headset on or and you have to like teach them certain things to get them to understand how to resonate right I think that a context matters a lot so we presented this work at five hours which is a festival specifically for augmented virtual reality so a lot of the people attending that festival if they had never done VR before they had already done VR experiences prior to entering our experience at least and so but that that being said I do think that both AR and VR have the advantage of taking advantage of what we already naturally do with our bodies right I mean all we had all I had to do with with after Dan Graham was just once the headset was on and sort of once you're beyond that sort of onboarding people into the actual technology is just say feel free to walk around and people immediately just kind of just kind of get it and I think that that's I mean for me exploring this technology one of the things that's most exciting about it is that it speaks to us in a way that feels very natural yeah so I you know I I'm not sure how much training needs to be done ahead of time but but I do think that because it's tapping into that our natural we have these bodies we're moving through space and they're designed to present us with images that at least try not to make us nauseous yeah I actually get pretty nice just funny because I teach it but does to the rest of you find also that it people find it quite naturally because some of you teach with it or you're working with children or with the general public right some is in case of the library I can say for my for my experience the first time that I met toaster lab I was like wow I don't think anyone in my community is going to know what VR even stands for and I was suggesting like hey you guys can you just put virtual reality on the posters instead of putting VR but to my amazing surprise almost everyone knew what that was and it was just me anything about VR and actually I got to talk to a lot of people during the event to and they were they said you know what we've been in Canada for a month this this particular group was from India and they were like yeah we've been working on VR and virtual reality stuff and even back home so I think people are very well versed in how to use technology and they're very very intrigued by it especially using it in open spaces because you technically you feel like technologies for the indoors but now it's coming outdoors and yeah for me I was personally surprised how many people were actually so familiar with it and they got into it right away well I wanted to compliment David too because the at Fiverr's you could give like tickets to pick a certain number of experiences and then you would rate them afterwards and I went after how there was a kid who like who rate you were supposed to rate it I think out of five or something like that and he was like a million and I missed it but you were someone else is just well maybe you or someone else is describing I was like walking around like Spider-Man on the floor and I think kids are like natural boundary pushers as I know intimately and they're willing to like take on these risks with their own body and like hurdle themselves with these technological problems in the way that we might be feel a little bit more fragile about and I think the kids working with our cameras were like willing to be like absolutely I will climb to the top of this tree holding a monopod in my hand we were like please hold on to the tree but yeah forest videos as demonstrations for our project just to kind of explain you know the kind of project we're looking at it so if we just say okay put this on and this is a project that some kids did in a park and the one of the kids where I think they bring the camera up the tree that's been really helpful in explaining you know what you can do with virtual reality because they think it and it also kind of gets people in the framework of they remember what it's like to be a kid it's that experience of seeing worlds through someone else's eyes so yeah and David actually you won an award during five hours right maybe that maybe that kid we won the People's Choice Award for best interactive experience and maybe that kid kids one million points in a long way and stuff in the ballot box so so children seem like they didn't take naturally to technology right but have you any of you encountered any like problems of accessibility and you know because we're not all naturally into technology especially older people or if if you're differently abled in any way right so have you encountered like any problems with that I can just speak from the behalf of accessibility in terms of language so in our community because it's a newcomer community a lot of the events that we have sometimes we need to employ translate translators and when when it comes to technology you can just show what you can do with it without having to explain much and it feels so inclusive it's like knitting you know like you don't have to talk about how to technically knit you can just show someone how to knit and they will feel included so I think in terms of language it's very it's a great resource to use to feel to make everyone feel included like on on the other end of that too like I sometimes when we're talking about teaching like 360 filmmaking and we talk about wanting to like pick up and move the camera quickly we'll just think about like when you were a kid and someone just like picked you up and like moved you around and how like that creates a kind of a lack of agency sometimes like you're in control of like the physicality of someone and that's a lot of responsibility and you can physically make them sick too and I you know I think you really like having at least in knowledge that you're going to could potentially have that impact on someone is really like important to keep in mind too and I find also that like if people are wearing glasses I mean even really simple stuff like that like if you have different of visual plane sometimes that's you can't always ensure that like the device you're using is going to give you the same experience as somebody else it's true because a lot of the headsets do not fit over my glasses right and then I'm just like I can't but also how what about if people were say blind or you know in a wheelchair you know is are there issues around those kinds of things it's probably not something that people think about in with VR right because it's a question like questions of accessibility I know there's someone here who's an expert in that and thinking about those sorts of things that should be further explored and discussed absolutely yeah we're kind of like at the beginning of a lot of you know how do we approach these things right yes let's take a break and see if there's any more questions from the audience hi I've got a question hi Tayan it's actually a question for you Tayan oh I was wondering so I love your work in miniature I'm sorry we didn't get to see the video here but I love the idea and I love the interface but my question especially having attended a number of you know looking at a lot of the projects today I'm just wondering if you could comment on what you think could be either gained or lost if those kinds of worlds and all those palimpsests on the poetic layer were actually brought out instead of being a miniature of the city but we're brought in as kind of a mixed reality going through the city visually I know you've done a lot of sound walks and stuff but I'm just wondering if you've thought in your own practice of what would be achieved what could be achieved or what you would lose that you don't want to lose yeah it's a great it's a great question because you know we think oh there's so much potential right like with your work on the Roman you know the epigraphs and stuff like it can open up all these different layers so with my work of actually looking at layers of the city could really bring out you know like you know historical tours would be a great really great example like what was there before you know or you know when you can go in through Google Maps and you can go back through time you know can imagine like being in the city and being able to go back through time in that way you know there'd be so many great applications that I could see with that but the other I think the drawback though would be of course that you're walking around the city like you know on your phone like staring at a screen right which makes actually moving through the city a little bit harder which is why I do sound like sound is such a great medium because then you're not staring at your screen right you're you're actually engaging it through the sound but you know you don't get the you know the historical photos and stuff like that which would be the best thing I think to layer over and you know and other things too poetry I think there are actually maps like interactive maps in London for instance of all the different poems that have been written about London and they're geolocated to where they are you know things like that could really be brought out so yeah question I was wondering if anyone on the panel can speak to the potential of emotional affect with augmented reality versus virtual reality because I know with virtual reality the affect is quite high I think one of you were talking about how when someone has the goggles on and they're experiencing a piece of theater sometimes it's inevitable that they might cry but what what about augmented reality when you're seeing both the physical and a piece of technology that's supposed to convey another message I mean we could I can talk about our experiences with with with transmission not not necessarily Parkway for force Park and doing augmented reality in that way I think it depends upon a lot upon like the viewer's willingness to hone in on whatever it is that's that's happening on the screen and maybe tune out or either incorporate whatever is going on in the physical world around them so it's highly dependent on someone's willingness to like dive in or the the actual layer that you're giving them to engage with and I think part of what we can do with augmented reality is try to tell compelling stories in any medium that we're working with and if someone is deeply engaged in a compelling story then we hope that the affect is inevitable if I don't know if that I've been successful doing that yet but I'm trying really hard I may add to that too I think that one of the advantages of virtual reality is the form factor in the way that it sort of closes you off to the real world and and hence that that heightened sense of affect I think and and the fact that with AR I mean particularly on mobile phones you're always sort of being mediated through this screen right so I wonder if you know once the form factor for AR becomes something less obviously mediated what if we also get a heightened sense of affect along with that it's an open question I think and and clearly the technology is trending in that direction so like you mean like like if we had Google Glass and we were just like immersed in our glasses it would be there all the time augmented reality also like just adding on to that augmented reality gives you the opportunity of like surprise like finding something like a scavenger hunt sort of joy feeling which I think it's like uniquely suited to that particular medium I think also in terms of augmented reality it would be interesting to see how it can from a community point perspective how can how they can the technology connect the people to the places where they live because for example we would have nature walks or just neighborhood walks introducing new community members to the history of the of the community and just probably I'm imagining seeing how the how the neighborhood had changed from time to time or learning the name of a tree that's right next to their home I remember some some of our community members saying you know I may not know people but I know this tree and it's kind of connecting them to the place so I think it there's a huge opportunity the way I see it to kind of make more connections between people and inanimate objects through this like augment augmented reality there's a question in the front there first thank you for all the five hours shout outs I really appreciate it Steph I just wanted to ask everyone how much they think about the social aspect of bringing in a group of people into an experience I've seen so many different projects who have not thought about it or they have tried and failed I'd interested to see how what you think about in that process of creating whether it's an app or a game or a project and how you kind of go about it and what you see well I know for my work for after Dan Graham specifically those monitors for me were really important as a way to have the virtual sort of leak out into the real world and have a way for people who aren't in the headset to get a sense of what what they're looking at because you know you go and watch someone in VR and you just see a person standing around you know like waving at things that aren't there and so I think that beyond just having a monitor that you can see their view I'm really interested in exploring that idea of finding ways to bring the virtual into the real for people who are watching it's interesting I was just reading gunnings article on on early cinema and he's talking about you know the excitement around watching these early films and I was all I could think about was that's a theater full of people who are all having the same experience right whereas in VR it's like one person's going well this is amazing and everyone else is going well look at you and so yeah I think it's really important to consider that social aspect to think about how to bring whatever that experience is out and particularly to explore the differences there right I think that there's a lot of potential to explore that it's a different totally different way of you know consuming media right and that's actually I actually want to get a dome in media arts right so that you have like that be able to have that immersive communal experience together and that's like a whole other thing like you know going to the planetarium like right but but like the dome experience would be able to enable multiple people to have the same experience at once but it wouldn't be as you know the point of view would definitely be very different right because VR is like you are you know you don't have a body or you do have a body but it's a different body but everything is your point of view but in the dome experience it would be more like well another world like but walking through another world together right and I'm interested in exploring that I was on a plane once and there was a guy with a oculoscope headset on a noise-canceling headphones like in a plane in the sky and it was just like the image of like bye do not talk to me and I think that's like that's how it works for some people and like that might give them some sort of social relief from like reality that they really need or crave and I think that's a valid thing too at the same time like something that's really important to me is like especially working in augmented reality it can be a social thing at the same time like you can have a shared experience and and at the same time like depends on what you're showing in virtual reality to like we've taken 360 videos of our kids birthdays and it's been incredible to like really like it almost feel like go back in time and experience those moments again in a way that we wouldn't normally be able to yeah I mean especially with archaeology that's one of the reasons why I thought to take the photogrammetric work that I was doing and and allow people to actually step into the site because like there's all sorts of accessibility issues with archaeological material like whether you know the prohibitive cost of travel or other reasons that people might not be able to visit a dig site while it's happening and in that respect it's also it also has like a social aspect to it as well in the sense that you have colleagues that might be all over the place or you have your photogrammetrist is running around and then your archaeozoologist is in Greece for three weeks or whatnot and then you know you can get together and say oh just put the headset on and let's go through the site and talk about the stratigraphy or whatnot so yeah but I think also to your point and I actually really loved the idea of exploring archaeological sites is because I've learned a while ago that a lot of these sites are actually extremely fragile so the more people actually go to these sites they can get deteriorated depending on how much moisture there is especially if it's an enclosed space so I think in terms of social component you can really use these videos or a technology for generations to come so in not only to just protect and inform about the site but also to help others that may not be able to get there so I think in a social perspective it's not just about today but it could be like many many years from now on so Aaron Aaron did you want to say anything idea for our project is that we are creating an archive of sorts of the community and the stories that are happening in that community so that it will also be available online for people that access or for new people coming to the community to see what their library has to offer them and also a little bit about the people that use it and their stories and history so I think it's it's definitely thinking about who the community is now but also you know who can learn from that in the future. Great and you know what I think we're out of time so thank you everyone and thank you to our audience for joining us today. We have closing remarks from Dean Sarah Bae Chang if she is here. You're here. She's here. Come on down. As we're clear, let's clear but yes you already introduced Sarah. So go for it. Sarah come on up. Good afternoon. I'm not going to take up too much of your time because you've been here all day and it sounds like it's been just an absolutely amazing symposium so I just want to recognize the great folks of Toaster Lab Ian and Justine Garrett right and I believe you heard from Joel Ong of Sensorium earlier and so my just tremendous kudos to these colleagues who've done such a great job putting this together. I am the Dean of the School of Arts Media Performance and Design here at York University so it's my pleasure to welcome you. If I had a real life I would have welcomed you in the morning and in fact you know I'm a relatively recent Dean so I don't really think like a Dean very very much and when people ask me how it's going I'm generally like it's great I'm having a really wonderful time and I have to say that today was the first day so thanks for this Ian. It's the first day that I've not been able to say I'm having a wonderful time because all day I've been in meetings aware that this is happening right in my backyard right right in my very own building and I haven't been here for very much of it so thank you all for coming I hope it's been a really illuminating wonderful invigorating day to share ideas and think about the future I believe this is the first of six so I you know it's as a great kind of kickoff event to a sequence of events I hope it was really fruitful that way. It did occur to me though right as I was sort of sitting here bemoaning all I had missed and listening to the extraordinary panel here at the end just about thinking about where VR has gone over the last you know 25 30 years that I've been aware of it and kind of thinking about it and I was really struck listening to how much when VR first came on the scene it was all about the future right it was like you know William Gibson novels and how we were gonna live you know in the future and what our lives were gonna be and the synthetic food we were gonna eat and the you know weird bland clothing we were going to wear and all of this right it was all these projections about about the future world we were living and I was as I was listening here it really struck me right whether it's like children or archaeology or past performances that we didn't get to experience live how much now VR is really this kind of interesting nexus that allows us to look at the past and how VR technologies inspire a kind of regression and play that allows us to look at things from the perspective of the past like as children right to to go back as kids or to look at a space you know as in TN's work in which we think we have a certain amount of familiarity and to go back and to go under and to go in and so I'm just really struck it at the way that this technology which when it first appeared on the scene seemed to really harken and speak to a future right and that it would ever be kind of propelling us into that domain now becomes this really important way in which we rethink reflect and and even regress into different spaces and into into the past of where we are now so I was I just sort of share that as a kind of closing thought it's important for me because as a new dean and as a new member of this community not just at in AMPD and at York but also in in Toronto and in Canada I'm really thinking a lot about kind of the past the present and the future and and I'm tremendously fortunate to join a community of thinkers and artists and scholars who draw so much insight and community and connection to the past who are engaging with technologies of the present and reinvigorating and rethinking and in some cases totally innovating and inventing new things and then really thinking about how those insights can shape and and affect our future and so I just want to to really take my hat off to all of the York faculty and students who are here today as well as all of our guests and thank you all for being part of this symposium to take stock of where we are to share your work with each other and also to think about how we can go for the future so I'm really bummed that I missed so much of it but I appreciate that it happened here I'm grateful for the opportunity to say thank you and and now I will sort of send you on your way to food right or caffeine or whatever comes next right because you're talking about next steps right anyway thank you very much it's great to be with you we're just gonna we're gonna gather around this lecture here so we just want to talk a little bit about next steps because we're coming to the end here thanks everybody who has spent the day with us thanks to everybody who has tuned in either through howl round or through Facebook or through our website and we're gonna make all of that available later part of this whole project is not just the projects that we've been able to talk about but also documentation and that documentation is both for code and what's being made open source but also for this sort of shared learning that we're doing so all of this has also been recorded and we'll turn around shortly to share out so that we're creating a library of people talking about work as was mentioned it is the first of six we've got the slide up here you may see that there are six there world stage design a sort of a culminating event outside of the series of symposia to present the work what what are we what are we working on next we're really looking forward to the launch of the trail off next year with Adrian Mackie we're super in the middle of that right now and yeah great yes thank you everybody's also I feel like everyone's saying thank you but it's been amazing day my brain is very full in a good way so let's see so we have a lot of tech coming up I mentioned at the top of the day that we're working on open sourcing all this technology which we are the thing about doing an open source project is that there's kind of two aspects to it one is the really easy part which is here's the code that's fine the part that's actually really hard is to make this something that's a community resource that could be used and that is as if anyone has been involved and I'm sure a lot of you have it's more than a full-time job to just do that so we're sort of slow rolling this if anyone is interested in the code I'm more than happy to give you access to it this the step where we actually have something that everybody can just download and use is going to be part of this I tell you project so we're just actually even though we have a lot of projects in the works that part is just at the very very beginning so thank you for your patience I do hope you're excited but we're not quite ready to kind of throw that hat over the fence yet but you and had you had you gave me a short list of specific tech things that you wanted me to maybe chat about yeah so I will I will talk about that so one of the things that we were dealing with early on okay so step back a little bit we're doing a lot of work around these phones not you you don't step back we've been doing a lot of work around mobile devices and the really cool thing about mobile devices right is that they're these little computers that a lot of people have that are jam-packed full of location sensors and most importantly internet access and there's a push in the industry of course to offload a lot of the computation to the cloud the problem with this of course is then okay who owns that but then even beyond the kind of conceptual problem there's a technical problem who owns that who pays for it so who's going to pay for that infrastructure who is going to pay or pay to keep that around so we have some some issues here on artworks like archival and history how things get to survive how do you do something like remember me at the Prague quadrennial when we have a lot of international visitors a very unpredictable network how do we distribute the content and we really can't rely on everybody having 3g 4g or even edge or even Wi-Fi so we started to try to unpack some of these heavy-duty infrastructure issues so the map tool that I mentioned has a mode that we can actually turn it completely self-contained so that it just runs on the phone and all the content is there we're working on some of those problems with the swim pony project as well to package the media and have it downloadable so that when you go on the trail you don't have to try to stream the media and then there's another push that we're going to start looking at which is to distribute the content either I'm using Bluetooth as a shorthand I'm not sure that Bluetooth is going to be the technology but we're trying to come up with some mechanism by which we can do multimedia projects that are distributed and don't rely on the network or rely on some kind of peer-to-peer networking so we don't need internet access so that's exciting and interesting there's another part of the Bluetooth part which is using Bluetooth beacons for location work inside if you've ever worked with location data from the GPS it's really terrible inside of a building so there's a lot of indoor projects like Albion is one that we're trying to see what we can do around that okay visual anchors I don't even know what that means yeah sure so that I mean that just might be another way to do it right like trying to come up with some sort of a mechanism that is not too invasive that would still allow someone to say come into a space and and get some content motion data we mentioned that but I think just basically are generally aggregating the data so we have a lot of data that is available on the phones as I mentioned and some really neat stuff like I just noticed that the HTML5 specification for geolocation actually will give you bearing which is pretty neat so we don't actually have to do that work which is cool and binocular vision so some of these projects so a lot of this like a lot of the feature set that we're building in comes from the projects themselves so we're working on integrating some of the 360 video stuff that we can do and that's an interesting challenge because as you saw briefly no reason if you didn't notice this but on the Parkway demo you can access the 360 videos directly on the web version on the desktop but if you're on mobile you have to actually tab out to a YouTube player and that's simply because there is no native 360 player at the moment for the web browser on most mobile devices so we're trying to see how we might solve that problem so that we can integrate 360 video there it might be a native solution yeah this isn't so much a talk it's just sort of a grab bag yeah but there's a lot of really cool stuff coming and I mean this is this is a very dangerous thing but there's a room of very smart people plus the entire internet but if you have some idea where you're like yeah I wish someone was working on that I'm not saying that we'll do it but if you think that it might be interesting for us to consider them by all means let somebody know for sure yeah because we want to make some we want to make tools that are usable so you are the community we are the community so let's talk yeah I just want to add on to that is that as we're working through what we estimate to be 18 projects we haven't we haven't identified all of them there are lots of things that are in the works that don't have specific timelines that have a specific production timelines on it so fitting them within it there they're just sort of some of that sort of comes about organically another part that that we're working on quite a bit that we've run into it and I wanted to ask a question about but we ran out of time in the second panel was there actually around IP so there's a lot of agreements that we've been having to rewrite both between how you work with open source and between these sort of collaborations especially in artistic collaborations and who out of that owns what it's actually really well as we've been working with our lawyer it's actually really easy to make it hard for other people to use your stuff it's very hard because it's not particularly profitable to do all the frame working around that and we've also done that around like just our agreements around IP of who when we're collaborating with somebody such as in Swimpony or when we're working within specific especially indigenous communities where we're oftentimes having to write agreements where we're reassigning intellectual property back to the collaborators and maintain a limited license because it works outside of the assumed ways of working and so though it's perhaps not as tech sexy component to it it's a really exciting part for the way that that this project's been coming together is to be really specific and intentional about the way that we set up our collaborations so the less of an ad hawk sort of we're gonna assume everybody's gonna be collaborate on this together in the best possible way no no I just wanted to say thanks so much for coming we had a wide range of topics today and I know that as Andrew said brains are full in a good way so we just want to say one final thank you and send you on your way