 Thank you. All right, let's get started. It's not letting me share screen. Do we want to have another conversation with the rules without the... Well, she knows what time the agenda. Yeah, I know she does, but still. Katie White. Katie, I can't share screen. Oh, wait a minute. Here we go. And if I remember right, rules of procedure. And I looked at my notes from the last meeting and... Oh, I think... I think this might be Sharon. She's always late. So anyways, while she's coming in, there's some chocolate zucchini bread here. Oh, nice. With napkins. But do not leave a crumb. Or I will be indebted to you. Because I'm nice. I'm going to be possibly eating chocolate zucchini bread. I need to leave it. Leave it. Leave a crumb here. I don't think so. Where would it be? We would... It's not. I'm with you. I'm running into terrible chocolate. I brought napkins. Well, you can't do that, can you? I'm going to have one. I'm going to cheat. Because you know what, I've been pretty good. I'm going to be videodocating this. You lost 32 pounds. May I send it again? You're still losing. Yeah, I'm still losing. Yeah. And I did bring napkins. If you can find them. If I can find them. Of course. Thank you. It's alright. Thank you. Okay. So... I think we can... This first one. Now, Katie, are you going to be making the changes? Or am I? You are. Okay. So under Calis rules and procedure... I think that second line... where it says DWMM... just take that line out. Hey guys. Hey there. Hi. Here you go. There's a napkin. So we called the meeting's order at six. And the rules of procedure... to number two. Okay, so this... So you can... I don't... Katie, how do we make it bigger on the screen? I can't tell Denise if someone's... responded already. No. Do I make it bigger on the screen, or do you? Yep. If you're screen sharing what you could do... if you have a touch pad, is use two fingers... and like... on the document make it bigger. Or if you have a scrolling paddy thing... to run it up and down and make it bigger. Okay, I just did the two finger thing. I should explain. This document... is what I did was I took notes... but I took notes off the document... that had Denise's... comments on it. I later discovered that there was a later version... but... And clean. A clean version, but I worked off of this one. Yeah. And what I did is... I made changes, and this is the one that shows all the changes? Yes. Yeah. You can... I have a clean version, but... the point is... the only changes I made were... as per my notes. From our meeting. Or... you remember that you had lots of comments... and then I just crossed them out. Yeah, that's fine. Okay. So that's what this is. Yeah, I got it. This is not necessarily the latest... I wasn't working off the latest... but I have no past here, so... All right. Yeah, I was... I didn't know... I don't know. I would have liked to have known... you guys were working off a clean version... rather than one person's comments. But that ship sailed. I did have a chance to go through everything today. Yeah, I guess I didn't realize... that there was another clean copy. You might have sent it, but I missed it. I put it in every single folder... since the first meeting in July... or the last meeting in June when I announced... that the comments were done in both the clean version... and the strikes in the highlights were in the folder. We didn't take it up for several meetings... and each time we did forward it into a new folder. All right, thank you. You're welcome. Okay, number two. So this one... you guys changed apparently... from May to... from Shell to May. And by the way, we had been through this entire thing. I'll be... yes, before Mark joined us. But everything that was in the clean version... of what we had discussed and already agreed to... this change from Shell to May is one of the ones... that I personally am not okay with. Because what we are trying to do here... is to be true to the commitment... that we asked for our chair... and the board to make in March, February... because I'm on my way. I asked for four things. And one, and this work... is to ground us... in meeting those commitments that we set out in March. So when we go from Shell to May, May, May, May... we are really not grounding ourselves in anything... that has real integrity as far as I'm concerned. And if we had a stronger culture... of actually doing these things, I may feel differently. But while we're in the business of trying to change our culture... for how we work together as a board... then I feel that we need to stick with Shell... so that we are stopping every year... and we have a practice of stopping... and saying, okay, what's our procedures? How do we work together? Who's going to be the lead person on this or that... or something else at a point in time... where we just kind of hit reset? Rather than developing a pattern... which we have at this point developed... of just kind of humming along... without ever pausing... and saying, okay, are we still working the way we want to be working? Rick, you've been kind of lead guy on Highway for a long time. Now is the chance where we revisit that... and say, okay, is that so what you want to do... or maybe you say no? And the new people, if we don't stop and do that pause... and pull these up and say, how are we going to work together? They don't even have an opportunity... because six months a year... or a year and a half or two in recent years... goes by before you even kind of realize that this is a thing... because we're not doing the shall. But I think we can get to the same point... with May. Denise May leaves a lot of room for I don't want to do that. No, no, I don't think so. Yes, it does. May meets May, shall meets shall. But this isn't a legal document. It's where shall... If it says shall, then every year... it's our responsibility to meet shall. What if we don't? What if we don't? There's no enforcement in that condition. No, I agree with that. But it's still, as long as I'm on the board... shall meets I'm going to bring it up. Yeah, right. And May meets other people and say, yeah, no. Well, we could split the baby and say should. So at least at the beginning of each year... this is one of the things we do. But can I have the reason? Are there areas of work where we... there are obviously areas where we do want to appoint. And that's what we've been trying to do. Are there areas where we don't want to appoint? Are there areas where we don't appoint the liaison... and don't want to appoint the liaison? Probably plenty of areas. Most we don't. I mean, we've been doing it as a topic comes up. And the way that this was originally drafted... and I don't agree to in March, except for March... was that we... I've always said I didn't totally agree with everything. So if you could... that's been my position right along. But the fact that you don't agree, Denise, in part is one of the reasons I feel like we need to take it more seriously. Because you're the chair. And what I asked you for in February and March... is a commitment for a new model for how we conduct our meetings. And a genuine commitment that we will work... with equal elected members. And to me, this is one of the linchpins for how that really happens... is that we actually appoint somebody who is a liaison... to particular topics or particular boards... so that there's greater opportunity for somebody else to be the lead... and that it's not... it doesn't necessarily have to start when there's a new topic. I agree that when a topic has come up... we have delegated a person for that thing... but not in a more global way. So we're saying that this or that is going to start... with this person who's going to work with somebody in town... or work with another committee... to kind of get it ready for the board... so that we're not sitting in our board meeting... spending half an hour just trying to get to the nugget of what is this thing... before we realize it's really not even ready to be here. And I think you do some of that now. A lot of times we don't have an opportunity or a time... for things evolving in the meeting... but if we had somebody who was appointed to do that... and we each all had different things... that we were sort of the lead for... for a defined year at a time... we could be more efficient. So I think if we could change the word to should... what if we were to say... I'm just going to try this on. You see in the next sentence... the first sentence says... a liaison to committees... commissions, work groups... and functions of town business. The second sentence says... similarly... various items of particular interest to the town... that frequently come up. So one's the more formal... one's the sort of less... not more formal, more regular... like committees than the others. And in that one we say... for the ensuing year as a lead. So what if we were to say... the body should identify a point person... sometimes a team... from the body to serve as a liaison to committees... to serve for the ensuing year... the same language... for the ensuing year... as a liaison... then just leave the next sentence as it is. So that would mean just... it's a one year appointment... and it has to be revisited in the following year. So I think some of the confusion... some of this is just persnickety... but we were saying... well, you know, these things... these work groups or committees or whatever... arrive at different points in time... they don't like... we have liaisons to highways... on a continual basis. So there are those positions and I think... if that were a shout, that's fine. It's just like we always have a chair... throughout the year we have these many committees... and, you know, five week committees in... Things come up. So the annual thing doesn't work. I think for established committees... and established work groups... you might clarify that... you do it each hour annually... and we revisit that... whether that person wants to keep doing it. There was another kind of... again, we actually cured some minor... free geology issues just by getting rid of stuff... for simplification. So the regional planning commission rep, that's me. They're not, I mean, theoretically they're a liaison... but they're actually in a pointed position. So that would be different. You know, I'm in that role... I'm like... any member of the conservation commission... or the planning commission... I'm appointed by the select board... to represent the town. I'm just going to keep prying language. Yeah, yeah, keep going. You said the body shall... identify a point person... sometimes on a team... on an annual basis... to committees, commissions... and work groups, period. But see, the annual basis doesn't work. For even just those three... Oh, you're saying committees... Well, it depends... Then the next sentence would say... the body may or should similarly... violate for various items... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without the answer. In other words, the first one... those are the ones where we have established... Right. We have established... So we say shall. We say shall annually there. But the next sentence we take out... we just... it shouldn't say shall. It should say should... Right. And then the only thing is... that's what we're trying to kind of... fix here, but that's it. I can let go of the examples, although... I think that they're useful to illuminate things... and illuminate what this language means. Well, just a couple of examples. Yeah. At least one is screwed up. Well, in Central Vermont, solid waste management... just doesn't fit. Functions of town business... we have at... you know, at one point we had... and this actually is part of the... process of where I'm coming from in this. We had at one point... specifically appointed Cliff and Denise... to serve as liaisons from the board... to work with the town office on... you know, stuff. And... and so... that work went on for a while. At some point it stopped. And the rest of the board... honestly, Denise, we were kind of unaware... that you weren't meeting with them anymore. And, you know, maybe... I wasn't aware. I don't think I'm alone. It wasn't happening anymore. And then there was a point where we became aware that it was happening again. And so that... so that kind of... Can I clarify? The... when I finished... the... if we had a stronger discipline... of saying, yes... this is... you know, occurring. And some other patterns that we... we should have where... we are... we each get some time on the agenda to report in on stuff we're working on. Then there would have been a time where you guys would have clearly said we're not meeting anymore. And that sort of maybe has wrapped up. Maybe on a quarterly basis... established committees... liaisons to established committees will report updates... on a quarterly basis. What happened with the office thing was... COVID hit. And we weren't meeting in person. And then COVID hit. So we were doing things by phone. I think we did a couple of Zoom... kind of meetings. So that's what happened is... when COVID hit... we weren't meeting regularly because we weren't meeting in person. So if somebody had said... Hey, are you guys still meeting with the office staff? I would have updated you. And I didn't think to just update. So that's what... it's as we all recall result... some very... some very sad... disconnects. Sad might not... it's not the best word. But we had some... disturbing, troubling disconnects... over... over that whole thing. And then as part of that I think... I guess the other thing I'll say is that when it's an annual thing, that contributes to a culture an understanding on people that you're working with that... you know, these two people are just right now the point people for the boards. It's not necessarily long term. And... you know, it could... it could change in a year. In fact, in some circumstances I think it would be really healthy if the boards appointed people changed just for the sake of change. So that the framework is stronger than a particular people and it kind of keeps things a little tighter. So what are we working on for language here? Well... one more question... one more question and then I'll suggest that I'm not doing this. The first sentence... There is five pieces there. I just want to get up and write it down. Four. Three. I haven't... Two pieces. This is a really good book. I don't know. And functions of town business. That's... yeah. So that was my long answer to why. That is... that is a meaning that is... That's what I'm saying. Is that really belong in that sentence or the second sentence? I think that having a point person to the town offices so that Jeremy can say hey Mark I'm not due to come to this life order until the next quarter. Do you think you guys can have some agenda sometime? And you know it's not your call but you're like well we have a lot going on and Jeremy says here's the things that are kind of on my mind. And then... and he has an ear. Not either side or an ear. And sometimes we all know sometimes those things can be just handled. And then Mark can say I heard from Jeremy I just didn't. I just didn't understand. Here's the thing. I told him you know go ahead and move the port-a-potty from the front of the door to the back building it's fine. I just didn't understand it. Could we say the functions of the town policy? Well I think if you put established after liaison two between two and committees then it's established function of town business and that includes the third. I think that cures a lot. Second sentence serve as liaison to established committees, commissions, work groups, and functions. Establish functions of town business. I think that cures I think the concerns we raised because those are ongoing work efforts. The committees show identify a point person sometimes to from the body to serve as a liaison to established committees, commissions, work groups and functions of town business. Established cuts across all those. And then I would say will or may should should makes more sense because it's in flux. It's various items. It's really up to us. Should identify and then rest. It's kind of what we do anyway but Okay. Kay did you have all that? She's typing it in. Yes one question I had that I wasn't clear on in the second sentence under number two. Who the words for the ensuing year or was that ensuing year distant struck from the second sentence? I think I could say in myself that just means it's an annual appointment. Did we put annually back into body? Yes. I thought we weren't using the word shall. I thought we were using the word should. The body should. Shall on the first because those are established committees. We narrowed the first sentence to be established. It's like re-appointing planning commission members. I get re-appointed to their regional planning commission. That's part of our annual rhythm. That's what we do anyway. And this just distills it in writing it's not. I think the concern I can speak for the pope here last time was it said shall annually appoint person. And you know these ad hoc committees that show up talking about highway salaries and benefits across central Vermont. Evaluation. That's different. That's not established. And so shalls in there. We're going to try to figure that out as we go. And maybe it doesn't always fit. Maybe we want the whole select board involved in something like bargaining. Like we wouldn't have a liaison to bargaining for reasons that are obvious. Sometimes you don't know that you even need a committee until something comes comes up. And then it's like, oh, this isn't a share. Or a member brings up, you brought up the idea about the highway committee. Or sometimes it comes from a group of citizens. Right. Well, like the ordinance, livestock ordinance, that was something that made sense to have a separate ad hoc committee. Oh yes, the livestock ordinance. That is now an effect. It is. Yeah. By having a liaison to a committee like the livestock committee, it prevents a lot of horsing around. Listen. You voted for it. You voted for it. You're agreed because you're changing this into New York City. Well, that's no long island, even worse. Okay. Okay, number three. This came from other, this came from Hang on, hang on, take the back up or preserve the jar. Did you get it established? Yes. Oh wait, I'm on the wrong side. Sorry. Number three. The select board made a point. I mean this goes back to number two which is establishing committees. This is committee, this is not a liaison. Right. And yeah, that's open meeting. It's subject to the open meeting. Yeah, well it says it up here, right? We're clear that if it's two of us that's not a quorum. You're not a quorum. Right. No, this is a good ad. Let's start again. I could not, by the way, Katie, I have a couple of words. Sometimes quorum and name, name and number. I could not get that to I just couldn't get that to work. So good luck. Oh the renumbering and Katie, I'll figure it out. No, it's not just renumbering, I couldn't get it to paragraph. Oh, yeah. Well it's hard. All the changes are there too. The next one you guys took out or the town which Can you give us a line number? No, I'm on the top of that. Number four, no single member? Yeah. We actually had that originally. We took it out and went around which was just for fun. I thought we talked about taking it out. No, you guys put it back in. It had been in originally and then we wanted it out so it came out. Right, then we put it back in. So it's fine. Okay. Four, five. Senility is settling settling in with a few numbers here. Oh wait a minute. Hang on, what I wasn't fine with I wanted to understand we could delegate authority to a person and why would we want to take that out? Where are you talking about? No single member of the body or unless we, the body, have delegated authority broadly for our annual organizing meetings. So So Well it's covered by the previous sentence where it talks about delegated authority and I'm misunderstanding that. And every board member It's almost redundant. All right, so we just want to make sure that we're clear on where it's redundant. That's fair. Okay. Any member of the body may request a roll call vote. Where are you? Yeah, we found out during COVID if anybody is on by zoom we have to do roll call. All right. Maybe amended by majority vote. Wait a minute. I want to understand this one. There's no limit to a number of times a member may speak or make a motion without being recognized by the chair. Are we saying that by striking this that we're going to we're going to get more far more formal? I don't know what you mean. Could you read it again? I think the issue was this hasn't been an issue. Our chair allows us to speak. So it's what's that term everyone uses here? It's a solution in search of a problem. I think that's what we were kind of concluded. That's on the old six mark. Yeah. I think that was like so what maybe in Danville or Bennington. That's not been an issue here. No, it hasn't been an issue, but that's to me why we would put it in so that when other people see how we work together it's kind of quantifying. Yeah, the practice is expected by other people who say, well hey, how come for a future chair or for a future chair so the silence I can't. Motions to close or limit debate will not be singing blue. The struck out language in blue. As a member of the body may speak to a question. A member may speak or make a motion without being recognized by the chair. Motions to close or limit debate will not be entertained. I would say that this is our practice I don't at all dispute that but it's a good one to have in there because John you said it. Why don't we then say as is our practice that's stupid to say I have a I don't understand the sentence motion to close or limit debate will not be entertained. What is that? Well there are people who do that to shut down the discussion and tell me we don't do it here. We don't do it. You're not always going to be the chair and this is establishing the way that we work together by putting it in right and right. But any board can take these rules and change them as they say. It makes it harder. Yeah it makes it harder. It becomes politically difficult. Can I get to the substance of this for a minute? I've never been a body that has this rule. First of all you have a strapper member of the board who is obnoxious and never shuts up. We say later the chair has to have an order to eat him. If the chair doesn't have the ability to do it and finally the chair could say can I have a motion to limit debate and if the board votes it's over. I'm just surprised that you could carry on business in the face of a difficult board member with this. Right so this cuts that way to I didn't think of that. That's my concern frankly but I'm very aware of you and I don't want to do so. You don't look so new and I know the hell with you. Look as old as me man. There's no other board that I serve on that has anything like that. I mean I don't think we can have a chair that's really tolerant. I don't think I didn't bring the original VLCT stuff but I don't think I'd make that up. What do you think came from that? I wouldn't have started from scratch because I wouldn't have. That came out of my brain. I don't have a strong feeling. It's not maybe too amended to what our practice actually is. It might have said something in its beginning that was not what we do and so maybe I don't remember. I might have revised it to be what we actually do but I didn't sit around and say we're not out there. So I'm okay I guess with the limit and I'm okay. We could just strike the last sentence. The limit debate will not be entertained. That's really... That's hard because at some point you have to strike that one sentence and then keep the part that we value that's part of our practice. Kay do you got that? Yeah So that's where we're going to strike that one. Okay. Got it? Thank you. I pulled this one off the drive, Google Drive. That's the stuff I think. So this is the one rules of procedure. Can you see it? Yeah, but now I can see it here. Okay. Okay. Got it? Did you sleep? Yeah, it looks like you did. Who was here? We were just outside. I heard he's going to come back. Okay, can we move on? We've got 20 minutes. The chair, reserve order. Are we ready to move to agendas? Yep. I think it's still an opportunity for us to get more specific about times, but we're getting more moving in the right direction. Yeah, it's nothing people say it's only going to take five minutes and never takes five minutes. Because everybody needs to have an opportunity especially on the board to weigh in or speak and that's how it works. We discussed this just so you know. And I advocated that it was a really good planning device for making the person writing the agenda was to go through the mental exercise of thinking how long would it really take. Right. And so this was the topic. Right, and having a liaison who can beat the thing down to put 10 minutes that you negotiated up for the agenda. But even during that you can still have the board that have questions that they want to ask that aren't have been answered by the liaison. Okay. The re-numbered two then it should include a statement. Now, I put this my language in brackets because I thought that was at least sentiment, but it wasn't in my notes. Yeah, you translated the ask into yeah. Okay, so Katie take out the brackets. Then to note the language. Yeah, and the clarification. Yeah. That's the number three, Katie. By the way, you're in the room. I see the brackets get removed. I see. So the brackets on the first bracketed sentence get removed and the second bracketed sentence gets deleted in total. Thank you. Oh, I was on the previous one. But yes, this is this is good. So you guys, you just added the East Calis. Yeah. My name is that are reflected. But the six in regular meeting will generally be held. This just talks about the posting which I don't know. Because that's the one that's not open now. But it could be of course the door next year is closed. Do we want to move? But it's not. East Calis story right now is not even functional. Right, if we say I'm fine with it. If you say when open, then people are going to think you don't put things up on Sunday. So I'll never mind. We can just say when operational that should be in brackets. Right now, we used to post it, you know this at the store. But since the store closed we've been posting at the post office. So the store one doesn't even really need to be in here. We could just say we could just say we should be posting the post office and the post why don't we just say I just changed it. The post office and the community stores. No, because you have to. You have to. When we do our annual meeting after March we pick the posting locations they currently are. East Calis post office because the store is closed. Maple Corner store Calclerc's office website and front porch form. And this doesn't have website on here so it should. It's a single document then on the website that tells those posting places that way if it changes it's we don't have change. We probably should. I just put in brackets when we opened. Open bracket when we open close bracket. I would think you know I would think that posting time that's something we would actually want on the website. And in a prominent place that way anyone interested in that they would know right where to go. And then we would also only everything anybody doing town business that would post. You essentially just reference that one location. We have to figure out a place to put it on the website. So this can be changed at a future select board meeting easily with a simple vote. This is our current practice. Right Katie could you add website before and front porch form add website because we do post it on the website. Town of Calc. Yeah. Web page. Yeah our town website web page where you want to call it. And I think that's covered in the next sentence as well. Emergency meeting. Now emergency meeting you have to do the meeting without public announcement. But you have to post an agenda after which makes no sense. Super public. We hardly ever do that. I typed in the town of Calc web page before from porch form. Just showing up up there. Yeah. There's emergency meetings are clearly for evaluating circumstances. When you don't have the luxury at the time. Right. Six. You didn't change anything. No. And seven. Seven. And I don't, I think this is something we went through before. The order of use is different and maybe you guys talked about it. But what I've seen on other boards that I've been on is that the motion the ask is first. So it's kind of held up as this is where we're headed. And so in the clean version that was item three. So there's somebody presenting a topic. You summarize, you know, maybe sometimes it can be three sentences but we're all seeing this. We're looking at blah, blah, blah. I make the motion that so many seconds then you have this discussion. And then that way, as I said, that way you know where you're headed. You know, exactly everybody in the board knows what they're going to be asked to vote on. Unless there's an amendment, of course. Yeah, but not all items are something you vote on. Right. So the motion here is just further along. So my suggestion is to move request the motion up so it comes between B and C. Where I should say then between B and C should then where a vote of the board will be required at this point a motion should be rendered with a second. I support that. That's fine. I think it's good to get a motion out of the board. Me too. Forget with the motion. Well, that is up to the chair. We got Katie. The other thing it does is it forces you to know ahead of time. We get clear. How much time do we spend futzing around worse-looking motions that one person could have drafted shoot to Katie an email. Anyway, so in this version, the clean version that was in the folder, it's item C. Yeah. Okay. So would that I mean, I had to have the question of would we even be voting on something where there was a warrant already, correct? I mean, it would be warranted. Well, then why not just make the motion right up before you have discussion. That's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. Where a vote of the board would be required. He's even wondering whether it should go top. Yeah. Before you do discussion like you would do in town. We got introduced. By the way, do you mean when you say presenter, do we mean the presenting board member? It could be. Or it could be the person invited to come forward. Right. It could be a motion on whether to do a bond issue for the dam. And you might say, I'm the liaison or whatever and you come in as a board member and maybe recuse yourself when you come in. So is that, but then again, I beg, the good begs the question if we were already warning a vote that's anticipated. I mean, so you're really you're there to vote. You may not vote, but you make the motion. Someone has to make a motion. Right. That should happen. Well, you have to introduce the person in the topic that you're going to even have the motion on. John would just say, okay, so the issue here is blah, blah, blah. And here's what's before the board. And then she says, okay, do I hear a motion and probably Denise would say, well, we need this needs a vote, a board vote. It's a monetary. I'm just thinking about town meeting protocol. You've got that in terms of what we already know. Well, Gus does the introduction. So Denise is the Gus. So Gus says, okay, item number 10 on the warning which discusses whether the fund the rehabilitation of the second floor to town hall. Do I have a motion? And so he has to introduce. So Gus is the introduction. He's the introduction. I understand. Everything is just introducing the subject. And then the discussion. Can I say, but I want to point out something again that was in the queen version. So one of the things we really grappled with back in March is where does the public fit into this? And so in this version we had so now we've got introduce a presenter, invite the presenter to summarize, get the motion, invite each member of the body, then the chair asks questions, sort of does speak, okay? Good questions. I don't have any more questions. I have a couple of questions. And then this is where we built in where do we have? No, no, no, look at D. It says the board members shadow out and then after we get our opportunity. Then the public. So where is the public? D, look at D. Second half of that. Put on your glasses and look at D. No, it's E actually. It's bits and pieces. So G then would be struck. Where is public testimony? It is under D. Invite each member blah, blah, blah, before allowing members and seek clarification before allowing members of the public to weigh in and ask questions. So hang on. We have that. No, so this is just reinforcing that there's no public here and then the chair asks questions. And then item E, the chair asks if there are any questions or comments of the public in attendance. Which is what we usually do. But this is really important for procedure because we often have people just wanting to jump in and you know, and then so we can actually get rid of G because we've already made the motion. Well, but after the public after the public speaks and says I've listened to you guys for 10 minutes and nobody said blah, blah then you want to circle back to the board and say so the board can say oh, she made a really good point. That's right. It's the way in the public comment. Public question comment back to the board. Is there any further discussion? So G should be G should be appended to end of C. We could add that to the end of C after discussion. We got to merge those two. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think so. But you've already got the motion so why would you No, you remove the request but the board member liaison generally makes the most is a clarification here. We already moved that we already moved. Well, we got but the idea is who makes the motion. So it's a different concept. So if we move the board member liaison generally makes the most we say we're emotions requested blah, blah, blah. That whole section should go up to right. So don't waste that Katie. That all goes up to C. Katie's got it. But then H should say invite any further discussion on the board right on the board right on the board. There are going to be and then there are times when we're having that discussion and a member of the public wants to speak so are we saying we're not going to let them speak again? No, I think that's up to the discussion of the board. My feeling generally is I've talked to you about this if you allow public testimony and you've allowed board members to ask the public questions then there's got to be a moment when the board can talk about it without interruption. Right. Kind of like we did on the horse ordinance. We're giving the public. And that's typical. That was not in a desk that exchange. That's a typical town meeting kind of small town exchange. There are times when we have permitted members of the public to be very conversational with us and I think that that is appropriate in very discrete circumstances and in those circumstances it's really are where that person should be sitting because they have more expertise than all of us do. If it's just somebody who wants to keep arguing or being part of the conversation because it's interesting Who's it? And that's the chair's job really to figure that out. Are we in the second session? No. Right, I agree with that. So now what we have is a board member and their item C the board member liaison each member and then the chair asks questions then public then any further discussion then public. Looks good. Public participation. All right, so we've got can we get through this? Yes. Yes. Okay, number two. So my dilemma with this and I'm asking you guys for some help. So you we start the meeting at seven. Public comment is for 15 minutes. Right. So if there's no public we don't do it. But then if you've got agenda items scheduled for after the 15 minutes then what do we do just sit here for 15 minutes? No. In the clean version that's on the folder I think we talked about it and I wordsmithed this. So the first sentence says as we as we're seeing at each meeting there will be blah blah blah for a future meeting. To account for the possibility that there will be no public comment or that the entire allotted 15 minutes will not be used the agenda will improve the following note agenda items may be taken up earlier than noted if the 15 minutes set aside for public comment is not used or if other items are completed more quickly than anticipated. Right. And at the top of the agenda for years it has said please note except for the start time. It's always said that. Well but this is more clear that we're going to generally take it in order and so I can shoot if that sounded good to you guys we can do that to Katie and Katie we can add that or I can hand it to John and he can just type it in in a couple minutes we're almost done here. I like that. But that note is that we do talk about that and I had some notes in one of my It's what we do, right? Yeah. But right to me that solves the problem of the 15 minutes to just sit around. No. And it's not just the 15 minutes other items might move along more quickly so we want people to know things could get moved up. It's different than a shuffle. Yeah. I will send that those two sentences two or two sentences to Katie. I mean and I think I answered I did respond to your question Mark and we come up and we realize that it's something that needs to go on the agenda because we need to take action we can't take action on an item that hasn't been more. Right. Where did you mean you were talking about and you say members of the board shall consider and make decisions on the matter where are number four and that's not right that's we maybe acknowledge but the chairman was speaking about it. Oh right you're right. No you're actually right that was a mistake. Yeah. To me this section should be more kind of focusing itself on that the 15 minutes. Yeah I know what it was I thought this is this wasn't about the 15 minutes this is just the fact that you can't have members of the public popping up this is sort of how the meetings run. So we did spend some time on this back in end of March and what's in the clean version in this version I move things around a little bit and try to crisp them up so that it is not inconsistent and largely not repetitive but bolsters the other section and creates space for the 15 minutes I don't know if we want to. What does it say? Well it's kind of different. It sets out it's just lays out differently so item two we just went through item three the way that we talked about it a while ago the board will entertain public comment on agenda items but the board retains the authority to impose a time limit on public comment. The chair will not acknowledge or invite comment from members of the public on agenda items until all members of the board have completed their comments and questions on an item. So here's one of the things that we talked about we talked about the fact that we've mentioned the public in the earlier section while we're kind of going through the procedures of the discussion at the same time we've got the section called public participation which is what people will read and so we wanted the two sections to fit together really cleanly and not be inconsistent so if people only read this section I'll read it again. The board will entertain public comment on agenda items but the board retains authority to impose a time limit on public comment. The chair will not acknowledge and this is what we just said chair will not acknowledge or invite comment from members of the public on agenda items until all members of the board have completed their comments and questions on an item so that just bolsters in this section so that if this is all people read they see the exact same thing they were experiencing in the earlier section that's item three how does that sound? It works for you. It's seven o'clock. It replaces four, right? It actually replaces three and then in four what I had left after our last discussion at all times members of the public must be acknowledged by the chair before speaking which is what this says and at all times comments by the public or members of the body must be addressed to the board and not to any individual member of the body or public which may or may not be what was said here I'll just keep going and if you guys we're going to have to go into a regular meeting no I know if a member of the public has already spoken on top so this is the same so I think the big differences are in those two sections we're going to have to choose that language to Katie and then we'll finish this up and then we can take this up we're getting there so we're almost there alright so we're going to have to our regular meeting I hope I can do this did you get most of that Katie? I think so I'll save this I'll duplicate the document and tidy it up so we can look back at it too and then I'll let you all know it she's going to send you you're going to get comments you're going to get more language yeah thank you we have several people joining us so I just want to we called the meeting to order at six and just want to remind folks on zoom that if you could not if you want to speak raise your hand thing under the reactions because if we're sharing documents we can't see everybody that might be raising their hand in person and also that if you're on the meeting if you could mute yourself or turn the camera off if you're not interested in the topic we're discussing because what happens is people get to moving around eating their supper things like that and it's very distracting to other people so if we could just have those that be really helpful um are there public comments or items not on the agenda Denise I have an agenda item that comes much later in the meeting that will take me 30 seconds to report on and I see people who are likely here for that there's only one person here only one but what my thought is I can share my 30 seconds now again later when Lori signed on ages ago somebody's got that's me what are you doing so you're saying she's just sitting here and she'll come in later we talked to her about that okay Cliff I have a copy Denise with the select board that's not on the agenda coming compliments of the friends so I'm in very exciting news to share about it I'm very happy to report that the friends and the town of Calis are the benefactors of a baby grand Baldwin channel that has been donated compliments of Mara Brooks amazing Mara Brooks donated it I don't know her but she deserves definitely she writes for the Hardwick Gazette and she covers Calis and East Calis and she was aware of the work that was done on the town hall and she's in the process of downsizing she hopes to actually move to Calis someday and she's in the process of downsizing and she thought she would like to find a civic organization that she could donate the piano to and the town of Calis and the friends of the town hall were her first choice so where would you store that that should be in a heated space we'll actually arrange to put it upstairs it can be stored upstairs even though it's not heated it will be okay we will locate it so that it's not adversely by an exterior wall and you know we can move it around in the space as need be to accommodate various activities and whatnot that goes on there doesn't the upstairs get like zero degrees in this so this is totally keeping of the hall my connections intermittent I might have cut out on you hopefully my connections are stored now we will be meeting with a piano mover on the 23rd to discuss the installation and placement of the piano within the upstairs they'll bring it in through the front doors through the steps at the front there right off the road and the friends will be on site to ensure that they're following the proper protocols and no damage is incurred in the process of moving the piano into the upper floor okay a couple of board members have questions I think Sharon was first and then John this is really exciting and Cliff I know the friends have a bunch of music people but I'm a piano person so I can't stop myself a couple of things to think about one is having you know a cover like a tarp one is enslaved things and then the other thing is a climate control pianos there are climate control mechanisms that you combine and install that will yep you are that one so Katie for the minutes maintain the proper humidity and temperature for the piano across seasons yes we're definitely aware of these considerations June Morris is also involved in this process and advising us accordingly and as you noted Sharon we do have some music people on the friends group but yeah I remember years and years ago I was living in the Rocky Mountain region of Utah and we had a piano in an area that wasn't heated we had to do similar considerations okay interestingly enough it was an old church that originally had purchased and was converting into a municipal building so very similar set of circumstances yeah and my question was along those lines because my understanding is a piano that is not good for a piano for it to be swinging from you know zero degrees to 80 degrees especially if it's an extreme change it's a gradual change it's one thing it's extreme change that's really problematic and humidity so my question I always have down the road considerations when I ask these questions so first off thank you for the piano and this is wonderful news but I just want to make sure that after we put the piano up there we don't get a letter that we need to find a way to heat that building keep it at 45 degrees year round and that wasn't budgeted or considered as part of except in the piano because my sense is I'll just tell you right now I have a small little Baldwin spinette altersonic it's like the generic Baldwin I wouldn't leave that at zero degrees in Vermont because there are things that happen like Sharon made mentioned it's not only temperature it's humidity and when things get that cold in Vermont there's no humidity zero humidity in the air and the sound board is typically wooden and there are drilled holes I've tuned pianos I tuned my own there wouldn't it's a wooden sound board with pegs and those crack from dryness and temperature shifts and once you get a crack in the sound board it's pretty much it's either a major repair or you get rid of it so the pegs will not hold their tune so FYI I just wouldn't I personally think it should be stored down here until we get the upstairs insulated my personal feeling Cliff you feel like you guys are not but as long as you understand that you guys got it under control we got it under control and if the determination is made it's better to put it downstairs then with the blessing of the sound board that's exactly what we would do if that's what it takes to properly maintain it okay sounds good based upon what I very knew we have that option should we determine that yes I think I think you should do that in the first instance I think right here where we're sitting would be the best place frankly you want it in a corner because that takes a big animal can we get it in here yeah baby crayons are not that hard to move they're easier to move because you take the legs off and stand them up so you have a safe bed and try to come and tune it because he moved it but oh wow and then it's a lot simpler then you've got the heater for the summer that keeps the humidity down keeps it from swelling too much and in the winter you have the humidifier so my personal feeling is you should put it here and it's on wheels somebody hires out of the place for a wedding they can pay them they can move it and I don't know if Cliff is aware of this but he might enjoy this years and years back the folks used to own the house that we live in now the Sid Lyft in the wintertime would as did many people in the callous east Montpelier area where the adamant surrounds would accept pianos in their homes to protect them because the adamant music school shuts down all the heat and drains the pipes and all that jazz and so they brought all the pianos into locals homes and then so that was a biannual moving event in and out to protect those pianos so anyway I'm sorry it's those days I don't buy one yeah I think you got the word that maybe put it down here because there isn't any heat and whatnot upstairs well it's okay really it's okay they should do it I just think they're going to ruin it we'll take every precaution it's obviously a big value for the town we will need to look into making sure the insurance policy that the town has would cover it in the event something does happen to the piano and obviously in the insurance policy that the friends encourage for third party nine municipal events we'll have to cover it as well yeah okay that sounds great and I know Mara so I've thanked her myself for the donation so that's great alright just so everyone's I think I said this but in case I didn't just reiterate the September 23rd looks like the day that the piano will be moving into the building thank you I will advise the board accordingly alright thank you very much thanks Cliff thank you enjoy your internet before I go any questions on any of that no it seems to be holding up okay what work you did to get things fixed it seems pretty speedy is it correct that it's faster than it was previously it is the new modem is capable of processing and approximately twice the speed of the old modem it's not to say that we have more bandwidth it just takes better advantage of the bandwidth that we have great and thank you I know you spent countless hours on it so thank you very much I don't even want to I have to be of service and you know where to find me if you need me in the upstairs apartment right right okay is there any other I don't have to scroll up like the baby grand very good is there any other public comments thank you I think I've got a comment from Marine I think she's probably on here and I haven't gotten to talk to her yet which my wife took about speed limits I got calls too I've been reading up on how we go through that process it's not just like you just do it it's 85% we've got to look at the statistics it's been on our future agenda list for a while so I've been reading up on it and yeah it's worth discussion it jumps up and down along that corner because of Maple Corners and then East Montpelier so it's definitely worth discussion okay the warrants are circulating somewhere in a big yellow folder languishing actually oh okay and you might all have noticed that the town hall outside has been washed I noticed it was really bright I actually didn't notice it looks really nice and it's nice to have it done now because Grady is going to come close to playing telephone tag with Grady they're the one who painted the exterior of the building initially so he's playing telephone tag with him and he's going to fit us in before the season right to get the paint chips and stuff fixed on the exterior of the building so it was good to get it washed before that happens okay are you ready to move on okay road commissioner do you want to I guess you're okay I guess you're pretty close there I'll see if we need to make them more speak real loud what are you grumbling mumbling about okay so you can come close to the camera did you guys have something on the side no secret can't tell you we'd have to kill you consider a reappointment of road commissioner that's a personnel one we just do it with your road commissioner sit in there so we would typically none it seems like it does happen so is there any well usually I think it's effective it's July 1st temporarily didn't we do that no we didn't do it in July no no we did it in the spring knowing that it was we do each year in July we did a performance appraisal in June or July we had a number of changes which I can still those can still happen right I mean we haven't met about those again I think that's kind of my life of unless unless unless you guys talked about it at the last meeting that we did and we haven't had a chance to hear from Alfred what his thoughts are on all of that like I said I think we still can we just need to schedule a time when the full board's available and Alfred's available to rediscuss or further discuss the evaluation right but that doesn't prevent us from making the appointment reappointment right this is something that normally is supposed to happen at the beginning of the year yes and it just didn't he's been volunteering he's been volunteering he's been volunteering I don't even say that you guys there's so much confusion Alfred is the road commissioner unless or until he isn't the road commissioner for whatever variety of reasons however it is important that we have a check in where we say yes you're still the road commissioner so everybody knows that's our you're talking earlier about when you check in when you say how things going and so yeah the changes are really important to us and that's the only thing I don't want lost in a reappointment process and I don't want to have lost in the reappointment process the changes that we talked about oh right well I was going to see at the end of the meeting when we were talking about future agendas when we could schedule a time to re-meet with Alfred in executive session to further discuss the evaluation so there's two clarifying right here what's on the agenda is to do the reappointment for one year until July of next year right that's the way until June of next year Alfred is road commissioner another issue is we have to complete his annual evaluation process in the meeting with him he's just talking about you Alfred likes the barrels when he's here are you sure okay third one of the things we talked about how do we want to structure the whole issue of road future do we want a public works director and a road commissioner what do we want that's a different way to talk about trees that's a different discussion I think it loops into our discussion with Alfred in executive session I don't have any strong feelings consistent with the policy that's still in draft unless it's what we want to follow I would move to reappoint Alfred Larraby as road commissioner and I'm looking for a second and then we can have discussion good job guys thank you so I think we sort of did it a little backwards but I think the discussion was there with what the process will be is there's a motion on the floor to reappoint Alfred as road commissioner we discussed setting a time and a date in executive session to further review the evaluation and also to talk about fine tuning it I guess that's the right word fine tuning the evaluation after input from all sides and then we can talk about Mark's other point that probably wouldn't be an executive session no that's a bigger that's a whole that's a public thing so that wouldn't be an executive session all right so there's a motion in a second any further questions comments Alfred Alfred have you had a chance to read the and so you're ready at any time for discussion yeah I would take some more time and make some comment yeah okay all right so we'll give you enough this is your last chance to decline well yeah so I think we should have a vote I got the ball on chain in my car I forgot to bring it in all right are you ready to vote all those in favor please say aye aye and the opposed all right thank you thank you but hang on Alfred because we should set that next meeting so we're needing to move this conversation forward so we want to get while we get out for here updates some highway stuff oh that's all this is sorry I think slow process slow sorry James yeah I misunderstood Carmichael curb cuts remember to bring the floor on this slide so Alfred do you have met with on site the folks requesting the curb cut on bliss road not this one I was well I emailed you I meant right away oh because I asked you if you had done this one too I looked at it but I hadn't met with those in person I met with the right away people we'll do this he's looking at what measurements need to be I will say I'm a little disappointed that all the work is already done what we can deny it if it were inappropriate the good news is it's done properly and there's no site there's no issues this is the Carmichael one yeah I wonder do they have a company putting in well you know they do that at their own peril you know if the road commission decided that's the wrong location it gets ripped out the culvert's not rightly sized it gets ripped out well it's incidentally it's all I mean it doesn't need to read a culvert site distance is fine it's all good it's just they did it without I would want to have them come to a meeting where we get to say do not do that do not do that but it's not okay it turns out you're fine but but well they received a copy of the agenda I emailed it to them they live in Shelburne we could delay the approval until they come and talk to us over zoom about what's going on there yeah I'm sorry no I'm not saying that in that way no she didn't say she said that no it's no matter where they live all I'm saying is that I would expect that folks who live in a municipality with a structure someone has would not just do this I'm not even saying it out loud we're not I am majority of us so let's put in the minutes that we're going to delay this until the Carmichael's are available to to attend a board meeting but they could do it by zoom or in person they just sort of that's a presence they'll start building a house without a building permit right same thing explain why they did this without a permit man frankly so who will invite them to an next meeting how do we do that I can send them an email but I get the minutes can say this is this was not okay this is not the process not appropriate okay Dan George I see Dan's on zoom hi Dan are you there you will be oh there you are you want to oh there you are thank you thank you for following the process and your application Alfred you've been on to I know where the project is and I've driven by so it looks like it needs repair um do you want to give us an update from your perspective Alfred um well it's clear that the wall has failed it needs to be replaced it is on our right away um they have replaced the wall in the prior years that was not in the right way it was outside the right way so they didn't need a permit for that mm-hmm and the way it was handled was satisfactory to me and I trust that they'll do the same I have talked to the contractor uh that is going to be doing it and it seems to be very easy to get along with and willing to do what it takes uh they need to have signs up signage while doing construction mm-hmm when you say it was done properly you were saying the last time they did it everything was following you're trusting at the same level integrity of the structure yes so the piece they're working on now is in the town right away and is there a height 4 feet 4 feet 12 feet 12 feet to the center of the road do those 45 feet long and that works yeah they're going to put it right pretty much in the existing location that it is now um it's a dry laid-up wall that's failing and they will have to put drainage behind it and they will run it to one of our culverts so it drains through okay so then we want to say that then well it goes without saying if you build a wall you're going to drain it so appropriate so appropriate drainage and that is to the town culvert yeah it's just it doesn't hurt make it clear anything else you know make sure a traffic can flow through as safely as the construction and process do you know what town highway number that is um I don't know okay but that is number 10 right yeah 337 so Dan did you have anything you wanted to ask no I don't think so okay Madam Chair yes move the approval of the retaining wall subject to what's conditions to um signage during construction appropriate drainage to the town culvert safe travel safe arrangements and ensuring safe traveling traveling of the traveling public the sure safety of the traveling public sure safety of the traveling public so move that way okay second and before we vote I'd just like to make clear that you know as a member of this board generally more in favor building bridges than walls but in this case I'll support this oh you're just full of it tonight you are full of it tonight I am full of it okay are you ready to vote what Dan what's that Dan I'll let you know and as long as it's not a bridge to nowhere it'd be a style over it okay all those in favor please say aye aye alright I will pass this around for signing and I'll need to get that town highway number from you and I can fill out the rest Madam Chair you know someone who wants to be admitted Jessica okay thank you Katie alright I'll pass this around alright next up we have one question do we pick this up at the town clerk's I'll when it's all signed and I have the top piece filled in I'll email it to you and I will drop it out the town office because they need the original for reporting okay thank you yeah I mean it's approved ma'am you just don't have to okay thank you you welcome you walk out he's a penalty oh well I might not ever see a penalty that's right okay what's going on with the hiring sadly you need to say negotiating with Ed Rao trying to figure out the best way to get him back on board full time he's willing to come full time I'm sure about how that will affect his retirement right we're going to check in about whether it was a contract employee or yeah I talked to Sandra as I was supposed to do and she was she suggested that one Ed make an appointment with the Social Security Office well that's covered Social Security is fine he's a state retirement he's eligible to make as much money right as he wants and then also to schedule a meeting with beavers beavers is the one that's in question whether he can stop drawing and start contributing or or not that's the question so and as I said in the last meeting because I've seen this across state government it's pretty common for state employees to retire just like municipal employees the same set of standards they retire and then you see them in the office the next Monday and when they come back they are private contractors hired by the state and then it doesn't affect because they're not an employee a matriculating employee whatever you call it full time employee so that's what I had hoped that we could figure that out and just confirm that that's allowable employees retirement plan so that would be the question to ask beavers if Ed Rowell were to come back not as an employee but as a contractor to the town but performing largely the same role roles would that be in any way conflict or cause and issues and I expect they'll say no because this is going on there's probably 100 state employees doing this right now I'm guessing municipal employees too so the question to be asked for Ed to ask beavers is can he come back as a contracted as a contractor to the town of Calis contracted to do road work on a full time basis okay not as an employee right well some of the issue has been that he wasn't fully committed he doesn't really want to come back full time he wants to be our part of the contractor maybe you just even as it is but he's so loyal to the town he doesn't want to leave with short handed so that's why he's coming in every day the other issue that we need to be thinking about is right now he's acting like a full time position with no benefits like no vacation no vacation he's got health insurance part time isn't there a limit for how many hours part time work if he's an employee if he's a contractor I'm just saying like right now so I was thinking the pressure is on to get the contractor idea implemented or whatever is what's happening because right now he's working at 40 hours so that says full time what I think what you're saying so that entitles him to benefits because he's more than he's 20, 40 hours a year and the benefits we're thinking about is leave time benefits we're not talking about health insurance because he's already got health insurance under the retirement plan if we had a contracted arrangement with them we could include some paid leave sick and vacation did we know what we need to know what we need to know what we need to know I mean I'm hearing you guys I'm hearing us talk about somebody being a contractor versus an employee for the exact same job and all of the tests I don't know we might read my fail the state does this so maybe they're violating the law too the state is different but there's probably rules about how many hours you can work we provide the tools and we all I know is that the IRS has strong feelings but there's more to do with workers comp and whether the employer pays workers comp that's been the issue not whether so you can have someone as a contractor but they're working as a contractor 50 hours a week for you well then their role is essentially the same as an employee so then our responsibility is to pay workers comp and FICA I have a suggestion let's pick a date when we're going to meet with Alfred to talk about his evaluation and at the same time because I think this could be discussed in executive session as well as a personnel issue and have Jim on zoom and he'll have done a research in advance so I'll contact Jim and say this is the situation let's pick a date when we can have a discussion with Jim on zoom and he'll have done research ahead of time and I'm willing to check in with the state parallel like I've been beaten to death here I'm willing to check in with somebody if I can reach them at D8 Department of Human Resources to see how they navigate that maybe there's a contract that we could borrow there's laws that don't apply to the state state has to pay federal social security FICA state has to pay workers comp this is wage an hour overtime they have to pay that too depending on the type of job they have to pay it on highway employees have to pay they have to pay time and a half has to do with whether a blue collar or a white collar I think as long as the city attorney the town attorney is notified of what the issue is can't be there and I just think that it would be nice to sew it up quickly so that he can sew it up with him we want to be fair with him too we don't want him to lose anything in this place that was the whole point suggesting he talked to VMware suggesting he talked to social security we can't tell him he has to but those are the recommendations and then if we get Jim involved what this would mean and how we have to follow the law is this something where one of us can be the liaison I don't know whether it's you because of roads or you because of your expertise or one person can be the liaison and work this out I'm willing to check in with DHR on it well I'm willing to contact Jim yeah and then and then coordinate me with John is that alright? do you want to do that piece? I'm glad to help out I think I have a personal we're going to end it alright so let's do that while we're talking about a meeting and then we have one more road thing to talk about with Alfred everybody got a calendar do you have a calendar? there's next Monday I'm out of town next week John what's your availability availability next week Monday what's the date next Monday the 20th I believe I'm available on Monday what's going on do you want to do a special meeting to talk about these two issues what time I'll be back in the evening yes 7, I don't like 6 I'm still chewing my eggs are still chewing I'll shuffle them 7 o'clock next Monday special meeting for those two items alright work for you? we'll have to can we want to get this done quick? yeah the other piece of this if we do settle with that we still are looking for another full time hopefully a part time right because we want to have some time off with the guys so what suggestions are there for trying to get more people interested I'm getting out the odds are out but nobody's getting any I've talked to other towns that are looking for road crew people it's happening across all the contractor bases it's not just road crew people it's like all of our contractors Adam Lane said tractors supply can't fund people I don't know we could pay $200,000 a year and I'm sure they'd flock but I don't think that's an option I mean there's other companies that offer you a sign on bonus yeah they do I don't know if we were going to do something like that I would want us to say it out loud again after brainstorming sign on bonus because we need to be make sure that the town hears loud and clear about the issues around hiring and you've said this before how we solve these issues we might have to get creative in other ways there might be a point where we don't have the crew to meet expectations and so what does that mean and how do we service them could we share a part time is Woodbury or East Montpelier looking for a part time person as well that we could share somebody so it would be more hours for a part time person maybe well it's not about the hours we would take that part time person full time but there's no person no but there might be somebody who wants to do like a weekend when they're looking for a weekend off and maybe East Montpeliers I'm just trying to think outside the box I think all towns are looking for a spare as far as I know East Montpelier don't have a spare right now and this Billy who's doing stuff he's not going to see he all wants to be a spare right oh yeah he is very much qualified but oh right right we should we don't want to use names when they're employed by somewhere else you don't want to use names when they're employed by us for where they work yeah right right right they get in trouble with their employer Alfred I would ask you to I love that you're bringing this to us and that you're brainstorming a branch of your brainstorming that is contingency planning right contingency planning around we don't get the staff what does it look like what doesn't get done what doesn't get done because we might be in the position of having to you know roll up our sleeves and say this is what Plowin looks like folks and message that and support you implementing it right before winter so that people have a heads up that we're having trouble just and it's not just callas I don't want people to get in I mean there's places I've gone to that have closed early because they don't have staff you know it's all over so don't assume that we're going to do or that we could even do whatever it takes to get the people we need and what does it look like when we don't have the people we need how do we do the best job we can with the resources that we have and how do we help people understand this is what it looks like right now can you come back on the 27th to further that's the third thing we just have the third thing right to talk, no the 27th to talk about you know what does this look like if we don't have we never had a fifth person so that's kind of but we normally had a spare so what does it look like well I can give you some scenarios now let's do it on the 27th when it's on the agenda put it on paper so we can look at it have a document and see what it looks like because we also want to get the message out to the talents folks this is an issue we're working on it you know this winter could look like for plowing so we want to figure out we want to have a way to message it based on the information you provide us so send us something in writing for the 27th and we'll put this on the have a discussion I saw recently this is an aside front porch form something big and provocative off the top of my head I don't remember the topic and the slide forward it wasn't Seth or Bruce it was somebody else on the board said we're going to be talking about this guy this is a big thing if you have thoughts please get in touch with slide forward or come and listen something we might think about when we have something of this magnitude okay the study I sent out an email twice to the folks that we agreed to and Cliff is not available he's got a whole bunch of other personal stuff going on and Mr. Hyde wrote back that he was unavailable, that he was doing other volunteer work so we need to come up with some potential people to work on this committee there was Bill Davis, he hasn't responded there was Don Singleton there was we can look at the notes then we'll get official minutes the notes and see who else was there I was actually thinking about Rose Rose Pellchuck was she I didn't ask her because I wanted to run it by the board so I can call her and ask her I'd be willing to make a phone call to Bill Davis if he hasn't even responded and say hey you were at this meeting, I was there we wanted to take some next steps with all of the good discussion please be back to us hope you're well yeah and then also I want to look at the notes and see who else was at that meeting in the audience I don't think so anyways, I just wanted to bring that up that we don't have a committee and we need to find some names so I'll contact Rose Cheryl's going to call Bill Davis for anything else and I'm going to come back on the 27th with contingency plan right and he's going to come back we're all coming back and it doesn't have to be one plan you know, different options well yeah, I think that's my vision it's just certain circumstances some of the roads aren't going to get cloud long time some of them aren't going to get extended as much there's going to be bus routes the bus routes we know are emergency routes some of the secondary roads like my road you know, so you have to wait maybe we roll the roads and we start taking slays they have a bunch of snow goers we'll talk about that they do okay, I know and they would be of the American Snowball or the museum really I can try to go I can try to see if he did I haven't seen it by her I don't know alright we're actually ahead of schedule East Calis stormwater treatment planned and Rick asked for a half an hour so Rick well, let's go let's bring in, I think we've got we've got the consultants here to talk about this why is Katie are you there? Jessica it's all down the zoom it's all gone hold on I was on zoom too just here that's great and everybody in the audience did you sign in? that's good, Jessica and Katie here we go again you know what, we lost wifi again? well that was nice while it lasted let's see here I've got a phone there okay you've got to reconnect the wifi you've got to go up into the wifi turn your wifi up on the wifi button it's back on oh it is there we go Katie, we lost you there for a second zoom shut down we lost wifi here but it's back I've got to find my password okay hey, Katie Katie Katie I just turned my audio on on my computer, I'm on zoom Katie, how do I sign back? chat Katie, they were realized people quit talking please I need you to stop talking for a minute please relax you're not turned on you have to be a better you use my computer oh wait, I think I'm on mute alright so on the computer screen it says callusadminatgmail and it says enter your password yep how you're going to text it okay, I think it's me password's on the agenda I think it's here I'll get a cue no, it says zoom that's it, that's your zoom password 217042 excuse me, ministry right, that's what I was saying click there's an administrator password right, so I'm gonna alright, so I want to on my little cheat sheet, I've got a password that is associated with the callusadminatgmail is that the one I want yes that's right you ready to take it I'll just hold it okay it says is it correct okay so Katie I can't hear you Katie have to quiet down everybody what did you say Katie I'm trying that work alright, so did you put the maybe I've got the wrong password no, that's the one that's the one I tried no I just sent it in the chat yeah no, it's not Katie oh yeah, you're already there you're already there, capital A alright, now I gotta start over C at one okay, I'll mute myself okay, thank you so C at one, capital A yeah, little I dollar sign dollar sign skirt now we're cooking with gas recording in progress oh, games all year games all year alright, share screen alright Katie, it's not letting me share Katie it won't let me share you have to give me permission Katie she's unable to share can you hear me, can you hear me now she can I can't can you make me co-host yeah you are co-host Denise, you've signed in as co-host do you have screen share option yeah, and how do I get rid of this little box that's weird we lost Wi-Fi here totally, I wonder why because you all said it was so awesome right, I can't I'll close out, I've got to you are screen sharing okay so now I want to close out of this document Katie that we will work again I can't hear you Katie, can you yeah, so can you move over the zoom screen so that you can see behind it is this internet browser that you have open I don't see anything hit escape on your keyboard and I'll take you out of the pool Denise, you might want to stop share screening or screen sharing yeah and if you want to share something different now it might be easier to move this screen over and open what you want to see or I can share screen if you'd like me to open the next document yeah, I just want to get to the document that has to do with the stormwater can you, if you minimize the thing Denise up there and now try to get out of this Denise, if you're looking for the stormwater design I can always share myself as well this is Jessica oh, yeah it's not letting me work on this work offline and this little box if you don't mind sharing the document I hate Google Docs thank you, Jess Pam, do you want to do a little intro while I get that shared oh sure, let me yeah, let's yeah, let's do that, Jess thanks everybody for having Jessica and I tonight I just wanted to just remind folks what this is about and also talk about what stage we're at and what needs to happen moving forward so this is for the stormwater projects where we've gotten funding for you folks for final designs for one project at the post office in East Hallis and the other project is to do some work on the long Moscow Woods Road and restore a gully that is developed down by excuse me, down by the Kingsbury branch as a result of stormwater runoff so this is the 90% design stage and we got comments from the steering committee from the town and the landowners already and Jessica will be revising questions based on some of that input but we also wanted to take the opportunity tonight to present to the select board and get any comments from you folks and answer any questions I also sent Denise a letter of intent for her to sign tonight and it's basically real simple language that says that the town intends to move forward to the construction stage of the project and that you will commit to operations and maintenance moving forward and that's something that's going to be required for a grant application and just basic letter of support and just intent to move forward and to sign on with the O&M which is what the DEC requires the clean water fund requires for any kind of funding that would come out of the clean water fund but it's also if we have time tonight we should probably touch on easements that will need to happen between the landowners and the town just to gain access for both construction and for operation and maintenance so that will include the rec association as well as the private landowners John Reesey and the other is Dwinell I think associates remind me of those guys so we'll need to get some easements in place and Denise and I have been emailing back and forth and the lawyer I believe is going to help us help you guys come up with that and we'll move that we can do that more during the construction phase but that can get moved forward I just found out on Friday that there was a grant announcement for the block grants for the clean water fund that we could potentially fund these projects directly from the DEC as opposed to going through the block grant this particular final design Denise wanted me to mention the designs were funded with the block grant program and that money went from the Department of Environmental Conservation to the Southern Windsor County Regional Planning Commission and then they subcontracted with CVRPC for the funds for the final design the block grant that was announced Friday would be the same process so it would I could either get a grant application in with that program or directly through the DEC but I haven't heard from the DEC yet for a definite on that that grant the block grant the block grant application excuse me is due on October 18th so I will let you know whether or not I guess what I would want to know right now is if that program is available if the DEC doesn't want to directly fund this if I should if you guys would want me to submit a grant application for these projects through the block grant so that's something you can decide tonight is fine or shoot me an email later if you would like Rick Rick is our kind of our point of contact on this did you talk with him about the grant options we talked about that 100% right and then that fat is available to us that would that would be the better one they're both pretty much neither of them require a match so it looks like from what I saw on this announcement on Friday that they have it might help your chances getting the grant if there is a match but I have to find out from the Basin planner what the intent is for these projects first I think before we would start with a grant application but Rick why don't you and I stay in touch with that about which grant applications we would go for and I can probably do that as soon as next week but you want us to make a decision tonight and we don't have all the you can't really make a decision tonight on which grant you can make a decision whether or not you want it wouldn't need to be managed by so and there wouldn't necessarily need to be a match at all so I guess the decision really lies do you want to move forward with a grant application period for either of the programs at this point is there a reason not to no we have to make a decision I think we need to do this I mean of course we've got a failing system over there I don't think the question is do we need to do the project the question is which grant when is your next meeting the 27th okay well that would leave us plenty of time to put an application together if you want to wait until then and I'll have more information for you how does that sound okay so we need to get that letter of intent no matter what because that'll be needed for either program so we'll need that I took the letter of intent that you sent and Katie can follow it up and put it on 10 letterhead for the board to sign do you want that tonight as our letter of intent that we want to move forward with the project it doesn't say anything about the grant because you're just telling us now that you have information on the grant information on the grant correct it won't be specific to the grant it's just clean water funding period you don't need to put specifics about the grant in the letter that's fine because this is an actual deliverable for our current grant funding for the final design this is a deliverable but I can also use this deliverable as as a submission with the grant application because that makes any sense and it's the same label they'll have it anyway so this has to be bundled in with the application wait a minute I'm pulling Sharon? Yeah I think I'm in the same place you might be Jason Pam and Jessica what what can we do tonight that is ready for us to move forward it sounds like we can sign a letter of intent because you have it printed out and then we can Rick is already our point person but we could if there's a pro con on which grant to apply for maybe we can we can express a leaning or we could let Rick do that filtering Rick and John as our liaisons and for good reasons move that whole conversation a lot more forward so that on the 27 that's ready to go and we're not either leaving you guys waiting until the 27 or taking up time here asking you a bunch of questions that you know it would be good it would be good to come back on the 27 with the information regarding the two grants available and what the recommendation is and why yeah and I will be coming back with what is available like what the DEC wants us to do in terms of funding so I will come back with that on the 27 for now I think also we want Jessica to share the plans again if you can let her screen share and just do you know have Jessica just briefly go over the plans and what we intend to do and if there are any comments or questions at this point this is your opportunity to do that and John I think you have been through these quite a bit so they can help clear anything up Jessica do thank you thanks Pam so I'm going to start with the post office area so as you probably remember there's kind of two separate projects within this project so one is focused on the post office area I'm going to make it a little bigger do the two finger thing and make it a little bigger yes well I can't do two fingers but I can use the zoom button so essentially what you see above ground in the parking lot is going to be very similar to what you see today out there the difference is being that in the the swale across Batten Road we'll have some check dams and a new pipe that's going to be under the road that brings storm water across and then you'll see a great inlet here where storm water can get into the system and then the underground chambers the infiltration chambers are going to be below ground with some additional parking lot grading of the existing or replaced gravel parking lot that would direct water over and into the small grass area where water can also enter the system with a catch basin and then water exits the system with a manhole cover so you'll see kind of these great inlet and manhole cover and then at the outlet of the system we're going to be replacing the pipe under your driveway entrance and replacing a section of pipe or putting a new section of pipe underground in what's currently a pretty deep and eroded swale so they'll just be a very shallow swale and most of the water is going to travel through a pipe down to that first driveway and we're going to point out a few things so we had some really great questions and discussion at a meeting about two weeks ago and some of the same kind of people in this group and I wanted to report back on some of those it's going to change things very very slightly so there was a discussion about how you know this manhole or kind of how do you access the system for maintenance and I had a really great follow-up conversation with contact who designs or who manufactures the system and we decided we could streamline it a little bit and one of the things that we had talked about and shown in the plans previously was having kind of observation ports along the system where you could open up a little cap and like look down into it and you know after talking that through with contact we actually decided that you don't really need those because you have a really robust system for isolating the sediment so what we decided that would probably really isolate the system in the areas where you can get the vector easily accessed so one thing that we're going to do is we're going to actually add an additional manhole right here so you'll actually have two spots at the very beginning of the system where you'll be able to vector out you know open up the grade at the top and use the vacuum truck to get sediment out and then also this first row we're actually going to put fabric around that and have it be called an isolator row so any additional sediment that really gets into the system is going to be isolated there and then you know you can actually vector that out with the manholes and existing access so what that means is that you don't need kind of all over your parking lot these little kind of caps and things that's going to get in the way of plowing and get in the way of you know rutting and wind up being stuck above so the things that are going to be above ground are the two manholes that are going to be in the grass area because this small area will remain grass so that should be kind of out of the way of rutting you know the plow I would guess doesn't need to plow the grass area so that addresses that and then up at the uphill side, upstream side will have the hydrodynamic separator you can see here the man or the manhole cover and they're going to be right next to each other and what we were thinking is we could have just a small paved area and I know this isn't on the plan yet I wanted to run it by you before I changed this but you know I was thinking just a few feet all the way around to have a paved pad you know that those the structure rims are going to be set in so there would be a little bit of protection from rutting and gravel moving and you know you wouldn't hit the structures with the plow then and it would be pretty similar to you know right now you actually do have a little paved section here that's going to be removed so I think it would function very similarly to you know what you have out there so I don't know if Rick or John you know that kind of addresses some of your concern that we had talked about a few weeks ago right we did bring that up and thank you for doing that is that an asphalt going to heave or if you whatever you put as long as that's drained so that's the lift and right okay yeah it's very well drained and you know I was thinking pavement like asphalt because you do have a section of pavement right near the building and currently you have a section that's going to be removed kind of near the grass area and it seems like that's held up pretty well so I was thinking asphalt if that's okay really sandy there that's why we're here that's true oh good so I guess we'll is the paved piece going to be it's going to be on the edge of the parking lot of the post office to protect the inlets basically or the so cloud is attached to okay so we will add that so you know then for maintenance it's actually simpler than we even talked about two weeks ago so there would be the two manholes at the upstream and and then and pretty much it that's it so it would all be really concentrated here and then also the cleaning out of the swale you know if the swale gets sedimented in and just so that the everyone understands that's designed the systems designed as an overflow I mean that's where the primary flow runs into those that tank system but if the system gets overwhelmed it then the level rises about the inlet the invert on that the pipe that takes the tanks and it and it will take the overflow down to the existing gully and across the road but it's a far diminished flow because it's buffered by the tank system so it's really good in that big thing the one with the four baffle things okay so jessica said that the one on the left was going to be wrapped in some kind of geotextile that's to keep they don't need to be they're basically you've got water the first one is any solids that happen to get in are going to go into that first chamber the one that's got the geothermal stuff or the geotextile because that will filter only water will filter through that so those other tanks aren't going to accumulate particularly it goes from that one to the next it's already filtered it goes in order but the sediments all happen in the first tank it's water that goes in and that's the one that has to get back yeah that's right so I guess it's a good thing to talk a little bit about the vector so as we've heard you don't currently own a vector truck so we did look into what it would cost to rent a vector truck you know I know this is pretty limited it isn't going to take that long there's also one structure over in your fellows road I'm going to show you in a minute but you know essentially for these three structures you still need to have the truck you know come and you know drive there and set up and you know do all the things it needs to do to then clean it out afterwards so you know if you do need to rent it for a day it's fifteen hundred dollars you know you wouldn't need a whole day worth of work here so you know PAM had described how there's some other adjacent towns including Woodbury which is going to have some similar systems and would be you know renting this kind of equipment periodically we also don't really see this as needing to happen every year part of why we have the open swell and the check dams ahead of the system is to you know catch a lot of that bigger debris in a way that you know your current equipment and road crew would be able to you know perform the maintenance first part without any special equipment they take it as part of that fee I just wonder where I think they might need to put it on I'm actually not really sure I think it depends like which vector company you're hiring and what their agreements are you know some of them may have like a pit that they own themselves and just take you back to their facility yeah it's a different truck right good point Alper said there could be other debris in there like soda bottles well in oil it's like a toxic waste but it's contaminated it may be I don't think it's going to be I don't think they're allowed to just throw it in an open pit or anything like that like six ML I think it's going to consider hazardous waste but they're they have restrictions on it's the same sediment that runs through every ditch in the town of Callis except this is sandier that's why we're here tonight but it could have you know oils we've got ten minutes we're not allowed to just like throw it wherever we're in ten minutes do you have any other questions about this post office area or any other follow up because otherwise I might switch over to the gully area the only thing I wanted to add just is that you know we've talked with Scott and pressed a lot about this and we're going to ensure that there is at least one during construction that there is kept open one access into the post office so we're not going to be blocking that that was in the memo of the recreation center yeah that was in the memo that Jessica sent yeah there's a whole sheet that talks about those details and how that access needs to be maintained I know something else that came up was also the large trees along Baton Road adjacent to the post office we wanted to make sure those weren't disturbed that's also on the plan thank you looking out for the trees yes they are great so switching over to the other piece we're calling this one the Moscow Woods gully it does have two different components I guess I'll actually do this zoomed out view first because I think this is helpful yeah so here's Moscow Woods Road up here with Fellows Road the post office is just off the page to the you know north west or northeast there and then the gully itself or the erosion is really the worst is kind of way back behind the village buildings and can be accessed through a pound path and I can show you that in a minute right it's going the right way right well it's the road that the road to the mill I'll actually zoom forward so excuse me like clicking through here but I think this will be helpful so this really shows the whole project area with a stormwater area up at Fellows Road that you can obviously get to right off of Moscow Woods Road and then the gully area back kind of behind everything and then this shows the existing kind of historic town road or path that comes around to access the gully so the town right of way comes all the way into this area but the gully itself is on two different properties there's the John Reese property and the Dwynell associates and I might be pronouncing that wrong but they they kind of they own part of the gully as well so when Pam was talking about easements that's kind of part of it to be able to get all the way back to the gully itself while we're on this view there's a small amount of kind of road maintenance work that would be done as part of the project to make sure that the contractor would be able to get back there we did walk this with a few of you for input and we put the things on the plan so kind of widening out the road in this location so we didn't disturb the historic stone wall and adding gravel to the steep location and those could be left in place post project and then also having some there's the path continues through here you'll see this on the next pages but making sure the path connection continues to exist there and then you know I think related to these this is the only the road improvements are the only piece of the work that's in one of the regulated environmental resources it's in the river corridor and we did get confirmation from the state river scientists that this project would not need approvals for that because it's maintenance of an existing road so you'll be able to do this work here without a permit but as you look at the entire footprint and then add in the post office work you've exceeded one acre of disturbance so we're going to be putting together a draft construction general permit which is the construction stormwater permit that would be submitted kind of prior to construction so you'll have all that information in place and have the permit kind of ready to go when you're ready to go with the project so that's the entirety of the permit and I think it just makes sense to see it with this overview slide here so to zoom back through the plan set we have a stormwater settling area or infiltration basin right next to fellows road so kind of right here is fellows road and here is Moscow woods road so this culvert is the culvert that runs under Moscow woods road and then takes a sharp steep bend down the road embankment that will be replaced we will be adding a stone splash pad here at the base there's existing stones we hadn't put it on the plan but we want to make sure that that's done right there and then there's some other stone where the overflow from the post office system outfalls as well as some existing bank erosion and rearranging all the stone down in the forest at the base of the road embankment to help capture and spread out stormwater what you will see up from Moscow road is essentially a just kind of cleaned out deeper settling area right now there's a little bit of a depression here and a lot of knotweed so we're going to have that reshaped check dam kind of a thing at the one side a stone swale where water comes down off fellow's road any questions about this piece no okay then let's move down to the gully so we're zoomed in on the gully I think I have a global question yeah we talked about next steps Jessica as you move through different pieces and visuals we're not hitting into other things that we need to be aware of us next steps we covered all that already correct side of the letter of intent explore grants grants come back with a recommendation for us to act on at the next meeting yeah the other next step Sharon is the easements with the land owners so that's a next step as well Jim said he will work on those and permits so you know Jessica will handle the required permits and then when we get the construction she'll do drafts and then when we get the construction funding we'll put them in you know I think one thing I may not have specifically said is our grant actually ends at the end of this month so I'm taking the feedback that we got at the meeting two weeks ago from some of you there in the room and then any additional feedback we get tonight or follow up hopefully within the next few days to make sure we have time to do the edits but we'll take that feedback and make sure it's included in our final design here Jessica so then I guess a next step thing is if you guys are done with your work then who is taking over Pam that will depend so who's taking over is we'll discuss that next time because you have to get the grant funding to take it to the next step so Pam's an overarching coordinator she's going to apply for yet another grant and I'm going to collect it right now we'll talk about the grants next time but that's so what we're doing now is just getting any feedback on these plans for me tonight Jessica will finalize them to 100% I will send those all those 100% designs to the town and the stakeholders and then with the next meeting we'll figure out the grant funding and then the project moves from final design which is what we're in now to construction and so it's all who's in charge of it is going to be CVRPC if we get the funding to move your projects forward are we going to have easements not by the next meeting probably not no you won't need those really until when you're actually starting construction so can you make sure the plans are posted on our website when they're 100% before the meeting oh yeah because the memo is on the website you mean the google the google we'd like to make sure that we have a chance to look at the plans before the next meeting yes if we're meeting on the 27th I will provide the plans at this level right now because Jessica doesn't really have to get them to me until the 30th so I can give you the 90% plans which I did email around to everyone and tell them to you Denise to be able to put on Google Docs for the board for the 27th because it's all new to me and I don't fully understand yeah okay so they haven't we're at 8 30 is there anything else you need to show us tonight or can we move on I think those were the big changes we had made and if anyone else has any comments let us know that's Edward Jessica it looks really good thank you yeah nice job thank you and thank you guys this is all you know a lot of technical it's really technical and I'm I'm really appreciative of Rick and John for taking the lead and bringing your expertise of half the board and easy with these guys I'm glad you guys understand yeah and Alfred has been very very helpful as well he's worked the site with us multiple times to really make sure we understood me yeah I just want to say that everybody's been great and John and Rick thank you for your help and input and Alfie's been amazing and the landowners have been really wonderful so if you can give us any information on other people that are putting these in a round that might help us and you know when we start factoring these it may be coordination would vary yeah and it you know I don't know whether they're going to get funded at the same time or constructed at the same time so you know that'll be determined tonight you need this letter and this is a letter to Thomas Kennedy executive director Southern Windsor County RPC and it reads the town of Calis Vermont and tends to move forward to the implementation stage for the Moscow Woods Rogue Gully and East Calis post office project contingent upon availability of funding and will be the responsible party for the execution of any operations and maintenance plan for both projects once they are constructed so does somebody want to move this letter I will move for the discussion all right all those in favor please say aye aye all right I'll send this around for signing well circulating case I have a quick question thank you earlier Ham and Jessica mentioned two grants did you get those clearly for the minutes which two just just put down clean water funding there's just different programs within the clean water but you mentioned two specific grants Ham could you send two sentences for Cade for the minutes thank you because you said there were two different and that was also alphabet to me okay thank you guys thank you thank you so I'm clear we need to put something on the agenda for the 27th again how much time it can't be a half an hour 15 minutes okay half an hour is like a quarter of our agenda Katie can I put that information right in the chat here for you is that okay all right thank you ladies guys we're going to move on while you're doing that um um um um Village Centers Village Designated Village Centers I thought maybe um Jan or somebody would join us but I don't see anybody I'm only related to the agenda so Jan's email explained um authorizing the planning commission to apply for renewal of the Village Center designation for Maple Corner and East Calis in a motion that authorizes the planning commission to apply for Village Center designation for Adamant and North Calis and these are handled through ACCD um agency of commerce and community development um the department of housing so um is there any discussion we've already previously authorized the designation for Maple Corner and East Calis so this is just a reauthorization so I guess I would make a motion that authorizes the planning commission to apply for renewal of Village Center designation aka designated Village Center for Maple Corner and East Calis so move any discussion just to point out that um I think I didn't actually notice whether it's in the folder or not Katie if you Katie yeah you're on the emails there is an attachment that Jan sent us that is the benefits of being of having just here just to make sure it's in the meeting is it in the meeting folder shipping okay so it's on the record that's all that's all I think it's all taken care of all right cool I don't think we voted all those in favor please say aye aye okay next up um make a motion to authorize the planning commission to apply for Village Center designation for Adamant and North Calis second any discussion all right all those in favor please say aye aye I do have a do we have to sign something for this too no just the motions which Katie has um and then we can send the planning commission the minutes when they're ready so Rick or John this letter do you want me to scan an email to somebody could you email that to yeah to write to Pam Dan that's good my scanner is down right now there was a that's fine all right East Calis easement yeah so Jim after our last meeting on this topic Jim Barlow on behalf of the select board drafted or I guess tinkered is it more accurate or because the Lisa the seller's attorney drafted the original pursuant to discussion with the board Jim made some tweaks and send it to the seller both by her and seller's attorney and has yeah Gloria and James Gloria the seller's attorney James Palmezano the buyer's attorney and checked in with them and we have not heard anything back I went over with her to Lisa to ask if she had news that I don't have now and I guess he answers now but do you know when Jim Barlow said that it went I would say at least a week ago he did it really quick very shortly after our meeting I heard unofficially that everything was set so I'm guessing it was received and looked at that just not responded to so I will put the attorneys on the other side and ask them to respond that's all we need to do and that's fine and that's why I'm here tonight just to hear what needs to where things are at and if there's hope once we have approval that everyone's good with the same version of a document that we just wait out for 30 days and then select work inside and that's going to be on the 27th that everything is all set right yeah we went out to 30 days from the original action it was posted on the 26th so okay yes alright so all you need or your attorney needs can you guys share will you share with me Jim Barlow's email address so to speed up the process so I can email him too instead of doing this whole job back and forth I think somebody from the board should poke Jim I don't want to poke him I've been an email conversation I've been an email conversation with him I thought he wrote back no he did what's going through my head Lisa is is represented by counsel and all that legal stuff so I think that I will follow up with Jim and then you and I can have a direct you would let me know what you hear from Jim I will let you know what I heard from Gloria and then if there's anything other than everything is fine then the two of them need to be talking because Jim represents us and is our counsel Florida represents you as your counsel waiting to be talking to each other absolutely but I'm thinking what probably has happened is all that Gloria has represented me is the buyer's attorney is the one whose title and insurance has to be okay with the document so Gloria might pass it on Jim follows on you can let her know the board the worst case scenario is that they're not okay and that really puts us in a pickle because our next meeting is 27th and 30 days is up at that point that's what we need to have something as our target we want to be able to sign off on this if we can we want to sign off on it also I know you do so that's fine I want to talk to all of them and then what I'll do is let you know that I have sent an email it's just and then that way it's time to stand for whatever and then you can let me know I can let Jim know similarly that you haven't heard any I'll just relate to the company it was kind of coincidental I was going to give them till the middle of the month and then say are we all set because I haven't heard anything so this is kind of timely that it came up at least I can hear from your side we had it or not happen well we had it unjust in case it was something some teed back going into the process so there isn't okay let me just ask the board has any more questions nope okay alright so no questions well I want to hear from them what to do about nothing well it's good you guys are here for the storm water stuff yeah it's right I have no idea right you probably won't see me again in regards to that you might see some other people in regards to that we're trying to keep the village from washing doubts that's right you don't give me the easement I don't want to wash away okay so you're moving on from that item I'm guessing yes thank you you're welcome thanks for coming where are you living right now I'm helping my daughter I upload those to her documents for the golly projects into the for tonight's meeting I just uploaded the documents that she used into the google folder I thought they were for the 27th can you guys make a folder for all that stuff yeah I was just talking to her earlier about it because there are a lot of pieces we talked earlier about making this separate a folder for the east calis storm water project yeah we need to do it and then move all of those documents into that one folder that's what I started doing with the ARPA yeah I just have to figure it out we don't want to otherwise it gets lost which meeting was that I really appreciated by the way whoever put the numbers on tonight's agenda that was Katie's idea I didn't compare but I guess it sort of was in order for me it really helped me know whether I'd ever looked at that one or not which otherwise has been a crap shoot Katie can you create a folder in that google doc for the east calis storm water project and once we have the folder we can move those over or anything related to that I'll leave it on the agenda folder too but we'll duplicate it in that we all need to have access thank you town highway 7 so this is just an update we're going to have to look at a new date for was is fall foliage weekend the conservation commission is going to be doing some kind of a tour of one of the forests I can't remember which now one it is but they'll likely want to be able to attend this site visit I would think is this the one with the chamber and everything no this is the town highway 7 this is the town highway 7 Jill and Gary Schultz it's the discontinuation is that the one that we were going to do on Saturday the 22nd yes okay I don't know I have to go back and look no it was going to be in October it was going to be October 2nd what is the road tour that we have on the 25th the road I think that was one of the 10 dates that we didn't go with because this is town highway 7 it's bad weekend is a bad weekend to do anything like this we're all busy you know people are I'm getting drunk on apple cider at that point okay takes longer than that for it to cure add some whiskey so and I've got to read help me out with the name and address of this lumberjack lumberjack something or other lumberjack LLC John and I have been in contact with Gary because we're kind of read knows about it tag teaming on this so we just need to we need to make sure we get all of the right landowners addresses because they have to receive notice yeah okay so that's just the update nobody knows who lumberjack is but the secret we think that we're going to uncover is that read is actually a lumberjack some kind of pancakes he's got an alter ego he has plaid and a hat and a axe he noticed that's required yes but it suggested that you allow 40 days so that you have time to mail stuff to people and it gives 10 days for to be delivered it shouldn't be certified shouldn't it doesn't say that with this outfit I would because it's a whole bunch yeah it's a consortium or something they might want to do that to protect that cover art certified to the lumberjack people I think it's an LLC that is part of a trust the trustee is the Bank of America but I'm not but I'm not a lumberjack pretty sure alright that's it that really was 5 minutes we need another date then yeah I'll have to work that out okay so no we're not saying that right no we gotta figure that I gotta count backwards or forwards one or the other but I want to get all the addresses and stuff first oh yeah getting some of those might be a little tricky alright is there other updates I do want us to go into executive session we do have a comment on the minutes it says review in approved minutes right but we're doing if there's other updates first oh no I want to go into executive session to have a question personally what should we do we're gonna do let's do the minutes of August 23 Katie oh actually I have one other question of update for our business students we were supposed to do tonight at 6 o'clock work on our wishlist for the personality policy yeah we never got to that no but we haven't it's disappeared it's not even on the update list so we gotta get at least I mean a future agenda item list yeah yeah that's what the hour we had said we would do that tonight and we didn't get a chance to get to it so we'll have to put it back on we do have the signed contract from Cindy remember we approved it and signed it and I sent it to her she signed it so there's a copy on Clio in the office but we said we were gonna we need to do that we need to do our wishlist there's an idea we'll do our wishlist give it to her yeah and I think well we can meet at 6 on the 27th maybe maybe we'll have some more or maybe 630 on the 27th to talk about the personnel policy because I really want that to get done we should be able to approve if I make if I send a test to Katie and we get another clean version of the guidelines that should take us if everybody looks at it ahead of time that should take us 5, 10 minutes to approve so we don't need a whole hour on that but I think we need to get the personnel policy done no no no I agree with you I just don't want to I'm just saying could you we could the guidelines are ready to be 5 to 10 minutes in the regular agenda we've beaten that to death and then get approved yeah I think and because Mark will need to get up to speed and Rick's somewhat about the personnel policy stuff maybe what I should do is send you the last version of the contract that we were negotiating where we thought we thought we were ready to sign yeah and that's when they we have that okay I've looked at that before when you first came on I gave to you well or another another and different thought is that we in addition be looking at the first proposal that we put in place because that's what we that's what we want in our personnel policy but do we want is what we're looking for a list yes we want a list of what we want in the personnel policy to give to Cindy you know it might make more sense to ask Cindy to join us we have other things too though I think it's because we're paying her I think it's worth our it isn't just it isn't just you know whatever version of the negotiation well let's do this why don't you and I work on the list I think it's a great idea or some subgroup of us to come to the meeting with the list or the second one I think we have a lot I wasn't part of those negotiations I think we have a lot of experience with just what we want in but we should have the discussion right yeah absolutely absolutely yeah and you know we didn't sign it we don't have a union contract it's really to me that's useful because it's kind of an outline of personnel related issues it's no more useful than that it's like okay did we think of this what do we want in this well I think we need to look at the most current personnel policy right so I would ask everybody to look at the most current one I think it's on the town's website and then if you're game we could work on looking at that and coming up with a list so let's do the minutes um I just have one comment on the minutes are we on August 23 yep I'm not sure what wording I want to propose but where are you I'm on paragraph 2 near the end of the paragraph naturally something I either said or intended to say but didn't say right where it says the very end Mark Mahaly identified any members communication with town attorney as a special situation well that's true in which there's a need for all communication with them to be copied I guess I think three things about that and then I'm not sure what it should say but that's what you said no it's not what I meant um any members I think let me say what I think should happen and then you figure out the right language one any individual members written communication with the town attorney should be copied number one can you delete my comment that Mark's kind of glorivation okay I'll just say yeah should be copied and I think that any individual oral communication eventually should come back to the board and be reported to the board in other words you can call the town attorney and talk to them but it shouldn't go very far so any oral communication should be should be well no we have involved conversations I'm sure Sharon had very involved well wait I'm not talking about that but any individuals oral communications should within a reasonable time be reported to the board at the next meeting within a reasonable time within a reasonable time okay however when the board is delegated pursuant to our policies to one or two board members to work on a problem they can talk to the city attorney as much as they need to as long as it's eventually brought back to us depuding the comments of the town attorney yeah yeah that's all I know if Jim if I e-mail him with something and he responds I forward it to the city attorney and he usually does copy he copies the chair he copies the chair not all of us and then the chair sends it for example if I have a conversation with Jim about the dam I'm gonna copy you two I'm not gonna bother you guys until you two decide to bring the dam dam to you mean when you have the conversation as a citizen citizen I'm a member of the board well I mean that's important to get that clarified because a citizen cannot just call him up and use our money exactly if you're having a conversation with him I almost want to say Mark you shouldn't be having conversations with the town attorney as where the citizen has but but all I'm saying is is if we designate what we just went through is a good example we appoint her to talk you know to work out this easement and stuff like that I don't think we need all need to know about it until you're ready to go back that's how we do it I mean this is just a question I've got if we're in all these things that you don't need like for instance you're involved in this is a really good example as a conflict of interest when I got on the board right away I talked to Jim I asked him whether I should do I have a conflict of interest with respect I'm talking about a legal conflict there's a question of perception so someone he can say you don't have a conflict of interest so I asked him do I have a conflict of interest with respect to the East Calus story we talked it through and he said I think you do I agree with him then I asked him I told him all about the dam he said I don't think you have a legal conflict of interest there I think it's more now because you see I own property on the bond so if there were a dam that's like he lived on a road that's going to be improved and you live in Calus and not everybody on the road that does not mean so for example to be very clear if this body said well Mark yeah that's true but we don't feel comfortable with you so it's still your call I think maybe that point is to I only use this as an example it's one maybe in that discussion it's out in the open if we decide what do you think Sharon? well I think one I have two things to say I'm not sure what a legal conflict of interest is right there's a it's very complicated but is that actually the statutes or is that when I say you know we say legal what grounds something is a legal conflict of interest that's frankly a new concept to me the idea we it must be defined in VSA I'm not sure it is because the leak and then the leak has its guidelines I made a folder that's out there it's not very deep I forgot where I put it there's a bunch of different things in there anyway really what we should say is that is a whole other can of worms because the biggest issue we have is whether even on the pond do people in town trust that you can be objective when you own property on the pond that's the perception but it's always when it comes right down to it the perception is always the biggest it's always about perception I'm not aware I'll tell you one that I think if there was a standard out there and there should be if I were a select board member and I were also bidding on a contract for the town is that illegal it's illegal to fly illegally so there would be a bright line I think it should be illegal in the state of Vermont let's take this offline because I'm really curious about where that is purely illegal versus some of the other issues because the leak lays out actually the materials will lay out very clearly for different areas of conflict that you need to be considering and direct financial is just one of them and they line them all up equally I guess financial could be the value of property it probably would but it has to do with others are generally equally or generally affected interests so if like the road I was going to say it's like the road thing so if the folks in my neighborhood think that singleton road should be paved and somehow that's a benefit to have cars go down your house or down or down I mean that could be a financial thing I don't want to see my property depreciated you know because I want to pave the road to the school or something so I have a personal interest in that but there's a broader population that also has an interest so I mean at some point and actually when Jim Barlow was a legal attorney I had this conversation with him because I wanted to know where things went and we explored this area of law and he and I had this part of the conversation and I can't remember who brought it up it's like wait a minute you cannot be a member of this select board unless you're a resident of this town therefore we all have a conflict of interest in terms of trying to keep our taxes low trying to maintain roads you know which include our roads that we live on so there's an inherent understanding in the law by virtue of us having to be residents beyond this board that there's some level of interest that's affected in our everyday decision making here but it gets it can get more increasingly focused and then there's a maybe if there's only two camps on Curtis Pond and you're one of them maybe that's enough of a focus if there's 500 camps maybe that's less of a focus because it's more like the town and if it's only you then that's a real and when it's your road paving a road to your camp everybody has a road but to me that would mean when it's your road that we're talking about it's one thing to say what's the road budget and how much sand do we want to buy we're all affected equally by that but the conversation is is that stretch confronting your road going to get paved that is a you issue and it's true everybody else lives on a road but only one person lives on the road where there's a conversation about paving so my understanding is that that example because I had a direct interest in a class 4 that wasn't appropriately thrown up on my property I recused myself because I felt that I had a personal interest in it but I was told by council to council both Jim as the league council and whoever the other council I spoke with from Stitzel that I didn't have a conflict but I felt conflicted I felt emotionally conflicted so I recused myself you did not have a legal conflict but you felt you had a perceived conflict so you recused yourself a landmark a legal conflict I don't know where that's grounded and I'm really curious because what the league lays out in its materials the conflict that John is describing is the one where he knew he was an objective about this road but the other issue is when you're in a decision making situation whether it's money or not do people trust you to the issue do people trust you to be objective and that's where you don't have to have any financial stake but you're a member of this board and you might be a member of something else with ECCT that's probably why you're in here you've got two different masters looking to you for leadership and having an expectation and you can say I've had this conversation with people saying well, some folks can do that and some folks can't it's really not about that I've heard judges say that it is so not about whether can be purely objective what does that even mean it's really about what do people expect of you to look like and do people trust that you can be objective when you've got another role over here like Tony Bryant on the Supreme Court after all her writings and petitions she signed can she be neutral and objective on the law I think a lot of people think she can but can I make one more comment before we go on that and ask her is that alright this is that question we're in that gray area of this recusal is there a role for the whole board we want to have public trust in what we do so we don't want to give the perception of personal interest interfering with our decision making but there are five board members so and we know each other we work together so in those recusal situations can we some are going to be obvious we recuse ourselves if it is a gray area can anyone of us make appeal to the board say should I recuse we can we can ask you we can direct no we can't tell you you have to but we can say Rick I'm feeling kind of strange about this I wonder if you might have a conflict of interest would you think about that but we can't say that's good I just was saying what we would want to do is we wouldn't lose the voice of any one person unless there really is a risk if we can maintain that in a way with still keeping integrity so for example you will see me doing just what you said we're not ready yet but after I brief these two then when this matter actually comes to the board I will I don't know I was going to ask I mean I've asked Jim and he says I don't have to so the question is well wait I'm just saying I'm going to ask to the board and if people any number of people on this board think I should I would or I'll take that into account I'm not inclined to you can once you recuse yourself say I want to recuse myself when she gets to the point in a public hearing where it's time for the public to testify you can testify as a member of the public although there's times when you shouldn't do that either if it's controversial enough you don't want to be seen as having an undue influence when it's really a problem is when you deprive the board of the quorum and that's where on the other hand we have five people so there shouldn't be a problem with two people recusing themselves fairly readily I mean Denise and Mark did on ECCT we've got three folks here we've got a problem if you have three people so we have a five member board to conduct the work of the board and the irony to me is where you might be tempted to say well they really need my voice they really need to hear from me because I don't think they're going to do the right thing well you hear how you've just crossed into influencing if you feel like you need to be there to make sure they know otherwise they're going to do the wrong thing that's exactly the influence you recuse you're out can we move on or else we need to make this an agenda item right excellent topic so the minutes you've made your changes I moved to end the debate second alright you can't alright that's pretty much it I made a few typos and stuff but I think it's good so do we say move to approve move to approve with changes as noted second all those in favor please say aye alright can we have a motion she's abstaining can we have a motion to go into executive session I hope we can be done here by please do section 313 to discuss personnel matters we're supposed to say what just personnel quick question there's a meeting from June where it was discovered that there was a motion that was made and then not voted I went back and watched the video the discussion was really long and went in a lot of different directions and it's true it wasn't voted I wondered how the board wants to handle that I don't know how I guess we would have to revisit the motion at a future meeting put something on the agenda to revisit that topic and redo the motion I can't remember what the topic was but the ship itself has kind of sailed yeah it has I forget what it was for can you guys see it I'm seeing it Sharon Wooden made a motion that the board respond to Mr. Hyde's request by providing the study of wages insurance we've already done it can we just leave it why don't we just document it tonight some minutes the oversight we didn't vote on it of course it was our intent and we've already got the information as requested the ship's already sailed thank you for pointing that out we voted to go into executive session so we have to ask Orca to leave