 I'd like to welcome all of you to another episode of The Nonprofit Show. So glad to have you joining us again this morning. Julia is going to pull up our sponsors so we can start every episode with a little bit of gratitude to our presenting sponsors. These companies are in your corner, not only here to support The Nonprofit Show and the work that we do, but they are here to support everything that you do in your community and throughout your mission and your cause. So most of these companies you are sponsors you might have seen for many months. Some have literally, Julia, been with us since March of last year. So we are coming up on a full year and want to continue to extend our gratitude to these sponsors. Thank you so much. And thanks to Julia Patrick for having this wonderful idea to start The Nonprofit Show. Julia is the thought leader and the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Check out that website, AmericanNonprofitAcademy.com. And I'm Jarrett Ransom. I serve alongside as Julia's co-host. I'm also known as the non-profit nerd, her non-profit nerd, your non-profit nerd, but also the non-profit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. And today's deck, as you see, is bright yellow, just like our guest is wearing today, Jennifer Hudson, president of Think Beyond Public Relations. And Jennifer is coming to us today on this episode as a thought leader. Welcome back, Jennifer. Thank you very much. I'm really excited to be here. Love talking with you and Julia. Thank you. Well, you know, we loved having you on several months ago. And then we had a really interesting thing is just an aside with a communication through email. We learned that you were part of a board or really closely aligned with an organization going through a major crisis. And we weren't privy to really what was going on, but there was a lot of tumult, a lot of heartache, I'm assuming. And you were kind of in the mix of it as a professional helping manage organization. And so Jarrett and I were like, wow, we don't know what's gone on, but we loved your comments and kind of the flow. And so we thought, you know, let's get you back on to talk about it. We're not asking you to identify the organization or maybe even give us direct examples of what went on because we want to maintain that privacy and that ethical position. But we were so like, wow, this is something we really should be talking about with a professional. And so today, we really want to talk about authentic crisis communications, because I've always thought it's not when it's not if it's when Exactly. Yeah, you know, the authenticity piece is just so very important. Do you want me to address this now? Yeah, I do. Yeah, the authenticity is so important. And in the aftermath of George Floyd, after his murder, so many different brands tried to respond in ways that were either effective or not very effective. When they were effective, the authenticity truly came through when they were not the public, let them know their staff, let them know. And so the authenticity is really important. And I was, you know, I think that authenticity is very closely related to empathy that when you can respond in a way that is empathetic to not only the situation, but to employees, to your key stakeholders. And you're doing that on an ongoing basis anyway, you're listening with an empathetic ear to your different stakeholders. It allows you to be authentic in the way that you communicate in the midst of a crisis. But the authenticity is very, very important. And, you know, it's also important to recognize that you need to match your words with action. So you can't make promises that you're not able to deliver. And it's okay if you don't have all of the information or everything that you need in one moment to take that action. But the public, your stakeholders want to know we're working on it. We recognize we have an issue and we're working on it. And I think the authenticity piece is so critical. One of the major issues is when you attempt to portray yourself as something externally that you are not internally. And that also goes back to core values, which I believe we may have talked about the last time we spoke. But your core values are your North Star. And if you are true to those core values, that also comes across when you're communicating during a crisis, or it should do, right? So the authenticity also is connected very closely to your core values. What is it that we believe in? Who are we? And when we do get in moments where maybe we don't get it right, we should, you should be leaning into those core values to respond. Wow. Jennifer, I have to say already within the first five minutes, I hope you just saw Julie and I go, whoa. I walked her head and was like, you know, because one of the things I said to you, Jennifer, on LinkedIn, because you were promoting that you were coming on this episode, I said, I'm going to have a pen and my paper ready, because I know this is going to be juicy. And who else can make this topic of crisis communication really juicy other than you? And I love, love, love the connection that you made between authenticity and empathy. And wouldn't you know, I think last week, Julia was the National World Day of Empathy, so. Well, I said, really, I haven't been done with that. Yeah, it was, it was all, we, I think it was on Thursday and we, we recognized it because it was, it really was tagged to social justice, but it was just generally the concept of empathy. But I have to say, I don't think in 30 years of this work, I've ever heard anyone tag authenticity to authenticity to empathy. So I'm very, very interested in that. And I'm going to, I'm going to have to think about that because I think that that's a way to communicate a mindset that's maybe even more important. You know, it, to be honest with you, I was thinking about it and I was like, you know, if you want to demonstrate authenticity authentically to your core audiences, you have to really understand those audiences. And those audiences include internal and external. And the way that you truly understand them is by being empathetic and listening. You know, one of the things I'm very, very passionate about is listening to the diverse voices behind the brand. So that when you are creating your plans, when you're deciding how you tell your stories about the organization, you've got that input from the people who are working behind the brand. And I think it just makes your messaging stronger. And I think every, specifically nonprofit leaders, especially nonprofit communications leaders, we should be constantly listening to those diverse voices behind the brand to help aid in the way that we communicate about the organization. And doing that inspires empathy, right, because we're listening to those voices, which allows our messaging to be much more authentic. Right. So let's talk about this a little bit more in terms of then like dealing with a crisis. And you always say, you know, you got to get out in front of the crisis. But what does that actually mean? You know, getting out in front of the crisis, when you're in the moment, it means all of the things you would think, well, that I guess I think of, that you should think of, that you are, you're communicating honestly, you're sharing what you know, you're responding appropriately. I think, however, that getting out in front of the crisis, like, you know, the planning that you need to do before you ever get there is really important. I know we're going to talk about planning a little bit later, but that's the way you get out in front of it. And there's a process that allows you to do that. Right. Crisis communications planning is very, very, it's a lot of the initial part of it is a lot of brainstorming and role playing and thinking through what are the different scenarios that we could face as an organization based on the services that we provide. And don't rule out things like, you know, just hate the bombings of our offices or kidnappings, or, you know, think of all the various scenarios that could happen. And, you know, with a background in the airline industry, we faced a lot of those things around the world, bombings near our offices, obviously incidents with planes. And so the first step is to really like brainstorm and think about what are the potential crises that could be facing our organization. And there's a difference between a crisis also and an issue. So we call issues management, those, you know, those nagging things that come up that you need to monitor and that you need to respond to as well that could rise to the level of crisis if left unattended. And so it's also important to think about what are the issues that we could face, you know, if you're a nonprofit that serves children, or that serves women and sensitive or domestic abuse or any type of situation like that, what are the potential issues that we could have in our different offices with our clients, with our staff, brainstorming those scenarios and then thinking about responses. If this happened, how would we respond to it? Going a step further, making a commitment right away, again, based on your core values to tell the truth about the situation, like being grounded in truth and being bold and courageous and not shying away from the need to respond. I think that should be a part of a plan, right? When incidents happen, we will respond. And having that operationalized is part of your policies and procedures. Because when a crisis happens or when an issue happens, it's very easy for management or staff to say, you know, we just need to put out the brakes. We don't want to talk about this. That is the exact wrong thing to do. So those scenarios, making that commitment to respond, deciding how you respond, if you're wrong about something, apologizing and admitting that you were wrong. And then going further and saying what you're going to do about it, right? Assigning roles and responsibilities, who's going to do what? Who are our spokespeople going to be? Training those spokespeople. Who can speak intelligently about this? Who can speak with the most empathy and understanding? Most of the time it should be someone high-ranking, because if you're going to be talking to media, they want to talk to the person at the top. Training those people. And then always building in time for debrief. After things have subsided, you need to, and the pressure is down, you need to think about what happened, how you responded, and what you might do differently in the future. I mean, those are just some of the basics of crisis planning. But the way that you get out and get out in front, and you're never going to, your plan is never going to address every single issue that you might face. Someone might be away on another country or something on vacation, who's a part of that. So you've got to make allowances for those types of things as well and then recognize that the plan is just that it's a guideline for you that you need to, it's a guideline for you to respond and for you to address. But it will never, there will always be something that comes up that was unexpected, and that you should prepare for those unexpected things as well. But that's the way you get out in front of it is planning. I was going to ask with that, Jennifer, what is the timing of the communication? How important is the timing of the communication with the media, the community, you know, all the differences? How does timing play a part? Because I've heard from, you know, so many others that if you don't tell your story, somebody will tell it for you. That's exactly right. Someone will tell your story. And the timing, it needs to be as immediate as possible. I mean, I know that's a little scary. As immediate as possible, when you have something of value to share, when you can respond authentically and honestly, and when you know what your next steps are going to be. Sometimes when you don't have all that information is just as not sometimes all the time is just as important to say, this is what we know, and we will come back when we have more information. There is nothing wrong with that. And then if you need to repeat that every hour, do that. But the timing is always as soon as possible. And as often as possible, when you have something about, and then when you have progress and updates to share, then you share those. But the timing is critical. You've got to be out in front of it as much as possible, communicating what you know, when you know it, as honestly and openly as you should do for the situation, whatever it is. So just to reiterate that, what you're saying is, it's okay. I mean, this is what I'm hearing you say. It's okay to go before the media and say, we are just as upset as you are. We don't have all the facts. We're working on it. We've got a team in place to focus in on this. And we're going to give you updates. I always like the rule, exactly what you said, set a time. We're going to give you an update in the next 20 minutes or this time. So is that what you're saying? Because you're not always going to have all the facts. Yeah, you won't always have all the facts. And I would even say it depends on the situation, whether you say we're just as upset as you are. So all of your messaging, all of that depends on what the situation is. Because you've also got to think about legal implications as well. So the way that you respond will all depend on what the situation is. And you should build that into your planning as well. If there have been certain incidents that have happened in the past or something that's likely to come up, you can have your sort of standard responses for those as well. Let me ask you this. There's that whole adage, you know, there are two sides to every story. There are 50 sides to every story. You're right. You're right. How do you deal with a crisis? And you brought up that point, there are legal issues that will come down the path. How do you delicately address that? Well, again, you know, recognizing that there are always going to be multiple sides to stories and to situations, you've got to figure out as an organization what your side is going to be based on the facts that you have. So, you know, the messaging and how we respond always depends on whatever the situation is. But it's very important to when you're thinking through who plays what role, who are the key stakeholders that we need to have involved in creating and responding to crises, legal, your program folks, like all human resources if necessary, the executive team, members of the board, they should all be a part of that process. And there have to be decision makers in place. That's also a very important consideration. Who is when we need a decision, an important decision that needs to be made while we're mad because, you know, you're not just communicating it, you're also managing the crisis in the middle of it. So you're both managing it and you're communicating about it. So who are the decision makers and deciding that who ultimately says yes or no on any particular decision? But yeah, so I just kind of drew a little blank here that I answered. No, that's great. You know, I have so many more questions to ask you, but I've got to read this question that came in. Actually, this is really cool. This comes to us from Tony Beal, who's with the Fundraising Academy, one of our sponsors. And he writes, such an honor to learn from Jennifer. She's truly a communications expert. Thank you for this great information. Oh, Tony. He's one of my favorite people, and we need to catch up. Thank you, Tony. I know Tony. Yes, that's very kind. Yeah, that's cool. You know, Jennifer, one of the things that you talked about, and I think that this is a really interesting thing that I'd love to know more about, that is committed actions in a crisis. So explain to us what that is. You know, I'm going to use this example. I'm going to use all of the cries for racial and social justice as an example. It's the perfect example for this type of thing. You know, many organizations, they put up their black tile. You know, they started showing more black folks in their photos. They wanted to demonstrate that they were a part of, that they cared, I'm assuming, some of them less genuine than others. But there has to be, you can't portray one face externally when there are completely different things happening internally in your organization. Your staff will respond. I'm trying to be very cautious in the way I talk about this. There are some organizations. You're talking to the two widest women on the planet. Well, no, I mean, because there are companies that I've been working with that have dealt with this. But when your staff sees that you're communicating one thing externally, when you probably had issues of misogyny or racism within your own organization that haven't been addressed, it infuriates your staff and it impacts your culture. And so committed action means, what are we committed to doing? If we say that we are allies, if we say that we empathize and that we understand and we want to change, what does that look like? How do you operationalize that support? How do you operationalize it so that you commit to bringing on more diverse board members so that you commit to diversifying your hiring practices so that you are viewing your organization through a diversity equity and inclusion lens? That's the way I like to say it. How can we view everything that we do through a DE and I lens? A good friend of mine, Jim Mueller wrote this book on board governance. And one of the things that I said to him is that I would hope, my hope is that talking about viewing your world through a DE and I lens just becomes a matter of course and not something that we have to consciously think. I want it to be the way that we are, but that's not the case right now. And so committed action means if you say that you are committed to being an anti-racist organization but you're not working on doing workshops and unconscious bias, you're not in a very intentional way looking at board development, looking at staff hiring, looking at creating an environment of belonging in a real way that inspires that and that makes people who are people of color or LGBTQ or whatever that those differences may be in your organization, people with disabilities. If you're not doing that in a very intentional way, then it just rings hollow. So you have to be committed to the action. You have to be committed to doing the work. And it's not easy. I mean, we're talking about 400 plus years of slavery, systemic racism. It's not easy. And I think that the commitment to actually do the work speaks volumes, even if we know that it takes time. I see this Jennifer, and you're so right when you mentioned the Black tiles. And for those of you that may not understand that reference, right? Social media, in support of Black Lives Matters, you were asked to put up just a simple Black photo or image or background so that it showed it was kind of like a blackout acknowledging that. But what I want to go further with this, Jennifer, is really when I see committed actions in a crisis, it is more than making a statement, right? It goes beyond the statement. Just like you said, it goes internally into our processes and systems. It goes into how do we budget for these items? Because- Thank you. How do we build in accountability? That's right. What I have not seen, and I am still very sad to see, to say this and to see this, is there are statements being made. There are tiles being posted. There are, you know, diverse images being shared. But yet there's no internal commitment to that structure. And for me, that also means where are you committed to building this into your financial budget? Because if it wasn't before, it needs to be. And that is part of the committed action, the way I see it. Right. You've got to be committed to building it into your budget, partnering with organizations that can help you bring in those diverse voices. Reaching out into your community and aligning yourself in a very real way. But yeah, budget, accountability, all of that demonstrates committed action. I'll also say, you know, about the black tile, there were a number of- and that's why it's so important to really understand your organization's place and position and how your stakeholders are thinking about these things so that you can make decisions that align with your core values. There were a number of people who felt that silencing people with the black tile was not appropriate. We should be talking about this right now. And so there were people who were angry about the black tile. But you're absolutely right, Jared, that, you know, money speaks and accountability, connecting accountability and budget, operational changes, changing policies and practices, finding- working with a DE&I expert to build in, you know, you can't be expected to do it if you're not- if you haven't been doing it, if you don't know, right? And so there are wonderful people who are doing this work now who's showing you how to operationalize diversity, equity, and inclusion within your organization. So in terms of a crisis, and let's say it is a social justice direction or thing, it's okay to be able to say we recognize we can do a better job and we're going to- we're going to put more resources to this. I mean, is that- is that enough of a committee? That doesn't go- that doesn't go far enough. I don't think that when I work with a client I want to know what you're going to do before we make that statement. So maybe you can apologize if you need to apologize or whatever the situation may be, but when you say we are allies or we want- we're committed or whatever, I think that needs to be- and we will do A, B, and C. We will do one, two, and three. We are going to provide you updates on when we- on our progress. This is what it will look like. We may not have all the answers now, but at a- at a- at a very sort of general level, we know this is what we need to do. We know we need to work through unconscious bias. We know we need to diversify our board. We know we need to reach out into the community and partner with other organizations. We know we need to be listening to- whatever the issue is, we know this and this is what we're going to do going forward. When you look at the very best statements, there were people- there were companies who said exactly what they were going to do and so that- that's that committed action piece. So no, it's not enough to say we're committed and we're going to do this without also saying and this is how we're going to do that or this is what we're going to do and we're going to let you know when we do it. So then let me ask you about this and- and for those of you that are with us live, we're going to go over a little bit today. So I'm just giving you fair warning because this is such a big topic and- and we don't often do this. We really stick to our time zones with this. We want to move a little bit just for a few minutes. So I think it's important to ask you the question, do crisis plans work? Because you know somebody's arrested, a CEO of an- of a non-profit's arrested for driving under the influence is a problem. But somebody that comes forward to the media and says, you know, I have been treated unfairly because of the color of my skin, that's a whole nother set of problems. And how do you have a crisis plan that's going to go to both of those spectrums? And all the other- all the other problems in between. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, of course crisis plans work. I think the question is, do crisis plans work perfectly? No, they don't work perfectly. As I said earlier, they're a guide, right? But a part of those- a part of the plan is really, you know, and- and- and I would hope that now that we are in the era that we're in, that people are thinking about how do we respond? Not only how do we respond, but how do we change our organization if we know we- we need to change. But yes, they work. Thinking about, again, what are our core values, matching that to potential responses, thinking about the various scenarios that we could be a part of that could happen to our organization, thinking about how we respond to those. Who are the key stakeholders? Who's going to do what? What does the decision tree look like? If you've got that shell of information, you're at least not starting blind, right? You're at least not walking blind with- with nothing. You've at least got some structure. Who will be our spokespeople? But yeah, all of the- the different scenarios that you could- that you could face, you can- I mean, it- it- you can have pretty creative brainstorming sessions, really, just to think about all those various scenarios. Realistically, obviously, like what could actually- what are things that could potentially come up? Issues of racial justice, issues of sexual harassment. We- we know that these are possible. You know, a CEO gets arrested. Those are- those are scenarios that you can consider. And then how will you respond? Now, on the issue of racial justice, I would say that if you suspect that you may have an issue like that, I would be thinking very seriously about how to re- imagine your culture through a diversity, equity, and inclusion lens. How do we- how do we face our own unconscious biases? How do we listen to the people in our organization who may have been impacted? Because as a good friend- friend of mine, Tiffany Lanier says, you know, you're a staff, your employees are not okay. How do we- how do we address that? How do we begin to think about diversifying our boards and- and ensuring that the administrative arm of our organization is reflective of- of the people that we serve? So the basic answer, yes, crisis plans work. They do not always work perfectly, but they are a great start. And without one, without even a structure or, you know, some type of guideline, you're really doing your organization a disservice. And, you know, issues do not rise- can rise to the level of- of crises. Those are- those are things like, you know, issues are sort of short-term. Well, they're not- they're not necessarily short-term as well, but there- there are things that come up that can impact your organization that are not the immediacy of a crisis that need to be addressed like right now. Like you can manage issues so that your reputation is not damaged if you're responding to them appropriately. Um, and this is like a bizarre kind of question, but when you think about writing or getting your group and getting a crisis plan, that's not like a one and done thing. Should that be reviewed like every year, every two years? Give us an idea on that. Yeah, I would- I mean you definitely need to like dust it off every year and- and you need to- you need to go through practice runs, um, and create role-playing scenarios where the- the crisis plan is activated and, um, the people who are- the all of the key players, you know, are contacted. I- you know, I- I haven't ever done this really with a non-profit where we've actually gone through. I've done this in the airline industry and it is very, very involved. Like it's like, you know, it's like a full-on, um, scenario that you're working through, but there's no reason that you can't do that within your own organization. Um, if this were to happen, who gets the first phone call? What happens when they get that first phone call? How do we respond? Who's going to draft the message? Who sends the message? Um, who sends the message out? Um, at what point do we draft the message? Like I- I think that you could create, um, a really good role-play to go through your plan and to test it out. At the very least once a year, you should be- you should be looking at your plan, updating it, people leave, making sure that, you know, the- the contact information is accurate, making sure that your leaders are consistently trained, media trained, so that they're, um, more or less comfortable responding to media, ensuring that all of the key players who are a part of the decision process or who have to provide information for the successful execution of the plan, um, understand what their roles are, what their responsibilities are, um, all of that should be a part of that process. And at the minimum, um, at the maximum one every year. And hopefully you're dusting it off, right? What I heard you- which means you're not using it or you didn't have to use it. The other thing that I heard you say during this episode that I thought was wonderful is to make sure that you build in a debrief time. So when you do work your crisis communication plan, as you said, they work, they may not work perfectly. So during that debrief conversation, that's when you can make some changes and alter the plan for the next time you might need to dust it off. Exactly. Was this individual right in this particular role as we envisioned it? Do we need- was there someone else who became an integral part of this that we didn't realize that we now know we need to be a part of this? Did we respond appropriately? Did we really connect with our mission and the way that we responded? Are our staff okay? Are we okay? What might we do differently in the future? So yes, all of that should be a part of a really solid debrief. And you'll need that. You know, once you've gone through, you need- you need to like take a deep breath and really, um, not only evaluate what went right, what went wrong, but just checking in to make sure everyone is okay. And I should say that even while you're going through it, it is a good idea to do those check-ins as well as much as possible. And I'm, you know, again, my point of reference is something so cataclysmic that, you know, I, um, with my background in the airline industry, I'm sort of, I've come at things from that standpoint. And so I want to alarm people. Outside of the airline industry that, you know, a very sincere or severe, apologize, very severe incident may happen with an organization that shuts them down, right? I've seen that and it takes you quickly from, you know, viewing really great in your organization to now you're, you're closing shop and it's not, by choice. Right, right. And again, depending on what the situation is, when you do manage to get through it, because I believe you will, when you do manage to get through it, it's important to think very critically and cautiously about when you begin to tell the stories again of your organization and the work that you're doing, when it is a safe space to begin to do that again. Because, you know, one of the first things is that promotional stuff should stop, right? While you're, while you're managing this, just from a sympathetic point of view and an empathetic point of view as well. But at what point, thinking critically, but at what point do we, do we begin again and you've got to gauge, you know, that environmental scanning, you've got to gauge the environment to understand when it's, when it's appropriate for that to happen, what the tone should be like in your communications when you begin to communicate again. And at what point, and again, communications folks should be very attuned to this, at what point can we begin to shift our tone? Can we begin to be more celebratory in some ways? Or should we be more somber? So, you know, that's all of that is very important in the aftermath and thinking through when we begin sort of our steady-state communications. What's the tone? What's the tone that we use for that? Wow. You know, you have, you're an incredible treasure, Jennifer. And I, I love, no, I really do. I love your, I love your attitude. I love your clarity and your process. I love that you're, you address this as a step-by-step piece. And so, I mean, as, as Jared always says, you know, we've had several pandemics in this last year. We've had COVID, we've had racial injustice, we've had, you know, economic disruption that will be felt for, for decades. I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, it's really interesting thing. And so our nonprofits are then impacted even more. And yet we have our own problems. It's human nature. And we create our own problems. Some come at us. Here's Jennifer's information. Really an exciting nonprofit thought leader that we've been so, so, I mean, we're like your fan girls here, because we're just like so. And girly old. Yeah. I mean, it's been really exciting. We think beyond.com is a really good website. Jennifer has some amazing things on that. So thank you. Get out. It's, it's actually a beautiful website, too. I was showing you. You know, that the website is focused a lot on, on my process of communications planning. And that's why I'm such a huge proponent of planning for anything, right? That when you engage in planning, your communications will flow better. You'll make decisions that are more aligned with your business goals. You'll make decisions that are more aligned with core values. But you've got to go through the process of thinking through that sorting through your messaging as a part of that planning as well. But thank you for the compliments about my website. Oh my god, it's beautiful. Just to let you know on that website, you're going to learn more about strategic communications. You're going to talk about, as Jennifer said, you're going to learn about planning. Corporate messaging, really interesting. And when you do it, how you do it. And then we think beyond.com talks about the mentor and training process. And then, of course, brand development. Is it all fits into that? So definitely check that out. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit academy, joined by Jared Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself. What a great way to start our week. And we want to thank our sponsors who have been with us to launch this week. Just to remind everyone, this week is the year anniversary with Jared and I doing this daily broadcast. Congratulations. Thanks. The nation's only daily broadcast, serving the nonprofit community. So it's gone by incredibly fast. It's gone by wickedly slow. But we've been really excited to be able to meet people like Jennifer, our Hudson. And so without our sponsors, we would not be able to do that. Hey, an amazing, amazing episode, Jared. Don't you think? Always with Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. It's really, really interesting. I've got before we launch off, we've got a question that just came in. I said, this has been wonderful. Thank you for this great information. I would be interested in learning more about how to hold a practice run for the plan. So I would say reach out to Jennifer. Yeah, please do. Yeah. See if that can't be something that you create. And then we want to know all about it. Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. I'm in South Florida. So people do run-throughs for hurricane and things like that. And I've actually been through a run-through. I forgot about that with a nonprofit, a disaster coalition some years ago. But yeah, sure. Reach out to me, please. I'd be happy to talk to you about that. Absolutely. Well, everybody, as we like to end every episode of the nonprofit show, we want to remind you to stay well so you can do well. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Jared. Have a great day and