 Welcome to the Geotechnical Engineering Podcast, a podcast focused on helping geotechnical engineers stay up to date with technical trends in the field. I am your host, Jared Green, and I've been practicing as a geotechnical engineer for over 17 and a half years. In this episode of the Geotechnical Engineering Podcast, we'll be talking with none other than Dr. Kanchipuran Gunalan, also known as GUNA. GUNA is the American Society of Civil Engineers, ASCE, National 2020 President, and he's also a Senior Vice President at the firm AEcom. I'll be talking to GUNA about his career in the geotechnical engineering field and also about his time as the ASCE President. Before we jump in, let me remind you that you can find everything you need related to the Geotechnical Engineering Podcast at the following website, geotechnicalengineeringpodcast.com. There you'll find all the past shows as well as links to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts in a form where you can submit topics and guest ideas. Again, that's geotechnicalengineeringpodcast.com. And please, if you've enjoyed the show, please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, as doing so will help Geotechs find the show. Now it's time for a conversation with our ASCE National President. Welcome everyone to the Geotechnical Engineering Podcast. We are glad to have the ASCE National President, Dr. Kanchipuran Gunalan, also known as GUNA. GUNA, thank you for being here with us. How are you feeling? Thank you and thank you for having me. Yes, feeling great. Excellent, excellent. Well, we know that your time is precious. I know that we've been inside a lot. We gave you, we gave the introduction and bio earlier today, but if you can help us out in your own words, let the listeners know a little bit more about yourself and what you do on a daily basis at AEcom and also for the American Society of Civil Engineers. Okay, as probably most of you know, I was born and raised in India. And my given name is Gunalan. I go by GUNA for short. Kanchipuran is the native town where the family hails from and the middle name is my father's name. Come from Southeast India. And as I said, I was born and raised in India, got my undergraduate degree there, got my master's degree there before I decided to pursue my PhD here in the United States at Texas Tech University. I came to Texas Tech in 1982 and graduated with a PhD in civil engineering with emphasis in geotechnical and structural engineering in 86 and worked for a small geotechnical material firm called testing in Lubbock, Texas. Got got my feet wet there for about eight to 11 years there and then moved to the Pacific Northwest because I wanted to explore the Northwest and also hone in on my technical skills and earthquake engineering and so on. So came to Utah and worked with the company, which was then called Chen Northern, then changed to Huntington and then changed to Maxim Technologies. Now I believe it's part of Tetra Tech. And while I was there, I had the opportunity to go market the services to Parsons Brinkerhof and while I was having lunch with the area manager and upon returning from the lunch, and I was making my notes and then realized that maybe he was trying to make me a job offer. So I called him back and asked him what was he trying to do? And he said, yeah, you're so busy trying to sell yourself in your company. I didn't know how to interject. And I asked him what the opportunity was and he explained it to me. It was one of the largest design build projects at that time in the country called the I-15 Reconstruction which was being rebuilt as a prelude to the Winter Olympics in 2002. So after I talked to him for a little bit, seemed like an exciting opportunity. It was tough to leave the folks, leave the firm and make the switch, but came to PB to help with the big design build project, develop the first of its kind performance specifications for the geotechnical pavement, hazardous harmful materials and so on, took on the reins as an engineering oversight manager and the PM for Parsons Brinkerhof on the project supporting the DOT. And then I always tell people my first love is geotechnical engineering. And my second love is alternate delivery, which is design build, public-private partnerships, CMGC and so on. And that's how I got into the alternate delivery business. And I stayed with Parsons Brinkerhof for almost 17 years before I made the switch to AEcom. Currently serve as a senior vice president at AEcom with alternate delivery in the transportation business line, sharing best practices, lessons learned, helping with the capture of major projects around the country and in Canada and supporting the execution team with the things that they need on an ongoing basis. More recently I was asked to help with the project in Texas related to geotech. So they still allowed me to stick my nose in some of the geotechnical aspects of projects, which is where my heart is and I enjoy doing that. But I've been come to know as somebody who manages large programs and projects and that's what I do for AEcom. And AEcom has also been very supportive and encouraged me to pursue the office. And I ran for the office a couple of years ago and was fortunate to be elected and currently serve as the ASC's president, managing the volunteer side of the business, supporting the organization and doing a lot of things for our members, the profession. And during this time, the things that I've been busy with is lighting letters to legislators, to the president, to the speaker, and others about how making the investments in infrastructure makes sense, especially during these hard times to help us come out of this pandemic, you know, and have the economy rebound in a way that's going to benefit a number of folks, not only in our industry, but the country's economy as a whole. So that's kind of a brief nutshell as what I do for AEcom and ASCE. That's awesome. I don't know what the secret is, how you're able to keep up with all that. I mean, the large projects and then, you know, to be the head of an organization like America's Side of Civil Engineers. It sounds like a lot. Do you have a secret for 25 hours or 26 hours in your days that I don't know about? Yeah, it takes a lot of time, but as I always tell, you know, a lot of help, a lot of people help make this thing easy for me. So I have a lot of support as well. So without which, it would be a tough choice and tough to deal with on a day-to-day basis, but it's been a pleasure and a privilege. That's awesome. Well, we thank you for your service and I guess there's really power and having a good team, so it's awesome to hear that. And I heard you say that Geo-technical engineering is your first love. Tell us more about that, that first love. As I said, I graduated with an undergraduate degree, a five-year program in India in one of the oldest civil engineering schools in India called the Survey School of India under the British. It's over 285 years old now. And then at that time, my father, who believed in good health and education to sustain one through life, encouraged me to pursue a higher education. So the choice was then where the first choice in India was once you finish, either get into structural engineering. The second one was Geo-technical and then, of course, the other disciplines fell behind those. Structural engineering was being computerized at that time. So when I started looking around and I said, well, given my personality and my desire, you know, wanted to see what was offered through the then called Soil Mechanics and Foundation Engineering. So I thought that, well, it's not going to get computerized. You still need to have some kind of experience and knowledge and use your common sense pragmatic approach to solving engineering issues. So I thought, maybe this is the field that I need to think to make sure that I continue to stay gainfully employed through my career and also contribute to the profession and into the infrastructure industry. So that's kind of where I made the choice to go into Soil Mechanics and Foundation Engineering. Unfortunately, for me at that time, the department was not very big and it was headed by one Dr. Sargunan, who was a graduate from UC Davis. And my master's thesis advisor was Dr. S. V. Ramasamy, who was a graduate from Purdue. So the system was set up like the American system in the department, which was different from some of the other departments. And that's when I was doing my master's research, I got exposed to using the geotechnical journals, ASE's Geotechnical Journals as references and so on and so forth. So that kind of exposed me to not only to the outside world, to all the stuff that was being done in the field by some of the icons in the industry at that time, and also to brand ASE. So that's kind of got me engaged there. And so once I graduated, I stayed on for a year as an associate lecturer taught the Soil Mechanics Lab and did some consulting and things, because I wanted to pursue my PhD overseas. So that's kind of where I got my feet wet, got exposed. Unfortunately, they had the curriculum set up such that we had two year program of which three semesters, which is 45 credit hours of nothing but geotechnical engineering courses. So when I pursued my PhD at Texas Tech, they didn't have enough courses in geotechnical engineering to offer. So I started taking a lot of structural engineering classes as well when I came to Texas Tech for my PhD to fulfill my credit requirements and stuff. But I also decided to keep my whole PhD program mostly technical. So my major was in geotechnical structures. My first minor was in geosciences. And my second minor was in soil science. You know, at that time, everybody was saying, well, why don't you get a minor in business or computer science or something else? I said, well, the best place to get your technical background is within the four walls of a campus. So I said, let me get all of that there, because some of the other skills I can always pick up as I start to get into the industry and stuff. So that's kind of how I did it. And so yeah, I've done clay mineralogy, remote sensing, soil suction, and all kinds of things during my PhD program. So that is my exposure and background from a geotechnical engineering perspective. You know, a lot of geology as well, to have that kind of a background. So that's awesome. And I can I can tell you love it. Yeah. Talk about I can tell you love it. Yeah. Now when you think about your career, it seems that you had many opportunities. And I assume some of these were created by you and others were presented to you. But can you talk to about, you know, some of those opportunities and how you approach them? Basically, as I said, as soon as I graduated, I worked with a small firm. I got to work behind a drill rig, worked with the soils lab, learned a lot of material testing. I've done my fair share of concrete cylinders with a sulfur cap. I've done a lot of asphalt testing. I've done a lot of nuclear density tests. I've even done the water balloon, the sand cone, you know, got got all of that exposure very early on. And then I decided to say, well, I needed to explore the Northwest part of this country. And so I said, you know, let me move. And so left Texas because it was pretty well established. And it was a good practice. And wanted to get a little bit more exposure on earthquake engineering and stuff. So I came to Salt Lake. And but unfortunately, I wanted to focus more on the technical side, but they said once you had some management background, you know, you're not going to be able to shed that off. So I was immediately offered a manager of the engineering department. And within six months, I became the regional manager for that firm Chen Northern here in Utah. And and and so, you know, I still tried to keep my technical interests going. So the thing that I did was I was continue to keep going to conferences, writing papers, presenting stuff. And I had explained to you before, you know, you know, I was approached by Barson's Brinkerhof to come support this big design bill project in Utah. So, you know, I took it upon myself to learn and wrote the first performance specifications for that big project, geotechnical engineering, payments, hazardous harmful materials. And I never turned down an opportunity. Because you never know opportunity, they say, maybe knocks once but may not knock always twice. So I never turned down an opportunity. I've always volunteered both both ASC and at work to when somebody offers me an opportunity to do something, I take it as a challenge. I learn I stumble. And so far, I've been fortunate that nobody has thrown me out. And so it's always that's my advice to a lot of folks is, you know, take the opportunity because it is never a wasted moment. You always learn something. You know, every experience teaches you something. So that's a philosophy I've shared with my children. And, you know, that's what I would like to share with anybody else. Even the field experience, you know, I spent a lot of time out in the field, working with the drill crew in remote parts of the country when I was from Texas, I worked in Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, we had to rig up things to do washboardings and stuff. So we did it, you know, in a very creative way with whatever was available out in the woods and so on. So all that, you know, pulled together gave me the confidence to say that, you know, it's fun, it's interesting. Yes, it's frustrating sometimes. But, you know, at the end of the day, when you look back, I have very fond memories, I don't have any bad experiences that I can share with anybody. Wow, these sound like great recommendations for our listeners, geotechnical engineers that are, you know, trying to better understand what their craft is. It sounds like you're saying get field experience, move around where you can, see different parts of the country in the world. And I assume that these actions together were critical for your success. Absolutely. Even more recently, even as I was managing some of the captures of large programs and projects, I had the opportunity to work in Canada. So, you know, as geotechnical engineers, you learn about frost heave. But you don't really experience it till you get to some of the cold regions, okay, and get to see some of those things. When you get to Edmonton and other places, you need, you can physically see what those kinds of things, ravages it creates to the payments and some of the structures and stuff like that. So, you always learn something new. So, even when I'm managing large projects, always look for opportunities, you know, the things that I can learn. So, I'm still learning. I'm still, I'm still a millennial in my head, I've been at all time to figure out what I want to do when I grow up. Awesome. Well, that's why some people say that's why we call it practicing geotechnical engineering. Yeah. So, we heard earlier in your bio that you have a clear vision for reaching out to younger generations of engineers. And you seem to be really be driven to, you know, increase the impact of engineering on everyday life. Can you tell us more about, you know, where these convictions came from and also what your vision is for the future? Back home in India, there's, you know, I shared this in my inaugural address, you know, I always say, you know, when you look back on your career, you always do identify there were a number of folks who helped you to get to where you are. And without the help and support of a lot of folks, you know, family, friends, mentors, peers, colleagues, you wouldn't be where you are. So when you start thinking about, you know, what is it that you're going to do? What is it that you want to be remembered for? And what do you want to leave? You need to turn around and figure out what can you do to give back to the profession to the next generation? And are you going to be able to leave this profession, this society in a better place than when you got here? So that's why I always say, you know, the sustainability of any society, organization, whatever the entity might be is dependent on how good the next generations coming through are. And especially in our field in geotechnical engineering, as it's a lot based on experience, you know, your hands on stuff, you know, you need to be able to share that wisdom with the folks so that they can do better things as they come along. So I always look to see what can I do to share my knowledge and experience, good or bad, you know, with the next generation, so that they can be better professionals, contribute, you know, to bigger and better things than I was able to. So I always tell people, I'm very passionate about civil engineering. I'm very optimistic. And I think the future is very bright. And I tell people, I said, this is a great profession. And I see a lot of potential and opportunity, simple things. Everybody thinks about payments, right? It's a simple payment stuff. And we, you know, get caught up in whether it's concrete or asphalt or whether the gradation, the drainage, the subgrade, the subbase, you know, how does it perform and so on. But if you look at the future, I think this payment is going to house a lot of technology to harness energy, to transmit energy for electric vehicles, continuous charging, you know, a lot of stuff is going to go into that small domain of a payment framework. So civil engineers need to get hold of that domain and understand not only what makes it function well from a civil engineering perspective, but all the things that can go into it and still continue to serve its intended purposes so that the future is better. And we are also supporting other technologies for mobility and so on. So, you know, I look at it as a very interesting future, you know, the future world vision project that ASC is undertaken talks about, you know, if you remember, you know, we showcase the floating city. So the one question that I asked the geotechnical engineers is, well, if you're talking about a floating city, what's the foundation of a floating city? How do you anchor these things in the middle of an ocean? What are the challenges that a geotechnical engineer needs to be aware of? Things that he needs to do differently, learn today to be able to meet those challenges of tomorrow. So even when I served on the Geo Institute Board, my question to the folks was, what are we going to be doing five years from now, 10 years from now, as geoprofessionals, geotechnical engineers? We need to be start thinking in those directions and get the people prepared to not only compete on a global platform, but to be also to meet those challenges that's come in our way. Wow. Now, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And I think that the key is really engaging those younger engineers, those bright minds. And when we start to think about these younger generations and the future, how can outreach and mentoring benefit geotechnical engineering? Because some people think they're too busy to mentor. What do you say to those listeners? Well, they may be, but at the end of the day, when you look back, you need to make sure that you left it in good hands. So the only way to do that is to be able to share your knowledge and experience. As I said, our profession, geotechnical engineering has a lot of stuff. If you talk to our founding fathers, Kara, Sursagi, or Ralph Beck and others, it's all about observational type of a deal. It comes from both theory and observation and experience. So all that needs to be shared. And a lot of that stuff, if you don't transmit it from generation to generation, you're going to find yourself in a pickle because there is going to be a gap and there's going to be a learning curve and we won't be able to make the progress that we need to to be more effective. Got it. Now, four years ago in 2016, you were awarded the ASCE Professional Practice Ethics and Leadership Award. That's a really big deal. Congratulations again. Thank you. What did you have to do to achieve such an acknowledgement? Early in the industry, our industry is known. So one of the things that I learned is close to 500 million now, it's probably 500 billion. And if you look at the global expenditure on infrastructure, it's in the trillions. A lot of money is wasted in bribery, corruption, and fraud. So early in my career, I got exposure to some of these challenges that's being faced in our industry and I was not very comfortable. And so I've had these conversations with a number of folks. And one of our former presidents, Bill Henry, who was a champion for this cause, he took this on as his presidential platform and he had a group called the Global Principles for Professional Conduct. And we generated a video training material called Ethicana that talks about corruption, bribery, and fraud. As civil engineers, we are all guided by the code of ethics and we need to make sure that we have zero tolerance for bribery, corruption, and fraud. And so I took on the challenge and they're looking for somebody to lead that group. So I chaired that committee for a few years and then it morphed into a committee on ethical practice, chaired that for almost six years. During that tenure, I had the opportunity to work with and provide some commentary for the folks at the World Bank, Integrity Division. And I also got involved with the World Federation of Engineering Organizations Anti-Corruption Committee. So I chaired, served as the national vice president for North America for them. You know, some of the lessons learned and, you know, transparency international and so on. So there are a lot of those kinds of things. And had a number of training sessions at ASC conferences, you know, had a lot of presentations and so on. So they were kind enough to recognize my contributions to the committee, to Etikana and other organizations and thought that it was appropriate to recognize me for my contribution. So that was very kind of them and I was honored to be considered, among others, who received similar awards and recognitions. Wonderful. Congratulations again. Thank you. So Guna, before our end segment, a quick question for you. What excites you about geotechnical engineering today and in the future? Some people look at things as challenges, you know, as programs and projects get bigger and more complex. I know that always comes down to, you know, the risk. And so the risk is always of the unknown. And as much as a lot of people say, you know, well, we probably know what we need to be doing and so on, it still comes to all geotechnical engineering is local, experience is local. And, you know, what do you know, and how do you go about addressing those? While we go about building, you know, we're building much bigger, taller buildings, we're building more complex structures. We're trying to build this thing so fast. You know, there's a lot of things out there that brings that one needs to bring to bear on those types of challenges, knowledge, experience, and ability to collaborate and work with others. So I still think there's a lot of room and a lot of growth in our profession as much as people may think that, you know, yeah, we have done this before and we have a lot of information and we can do this and still people take it and then find themselves in trouble. So I still think the field is still open. There's a lot of opportunities for innovation. There's a lot of opportunities for exciting things. So still work to be done, needing our day to day demands. While we start thinking about how do we use the tools and technology to do things faster, do things better, and make it more cost efficient, because we're talking about reducing the cost of infrastructure by 50% by 2025. And I believe that majority of that contribution could and should come from the geotechnical engineering personnel on a project or a program. I think that's where a lot of people throw a lot of money and, you know, for no reason. I also tell people that, you know, we always feel comfortable because we have been driven to that because of risk and fear of litigation. We throw in factors of safety. You know, I generally tell people if you're going to do something and have a factor of safety greater than three, you can get a monkey to do it. You don't need a geotechnical engineer to do it. So that's where the engineering and ingenuity comes in. And that's what we need to do. I always tell people it's not about what you say. It's how you say it. We need to find a way to work with people, find not only a seat at the table, but a voice. And so I always encourage people to say, don't feel bashful. Don't be overly conservative and don't say that I'm not going to take any risk. Then as I said, you know, if you're not willing to take the risk, then they can get a monkey to do it. So let's make sure that we do what we are trained to do. To use our ingenuity, engineering knowledge, and be able to make sure that we are providing for sustainable and resilient infrastructure that's going to serve the next generation for the foreseeable future. So that's what we need to do, especially in today's time where the dollar doesn't stretch too far. We need to figure out how do you help the folks stretch it. And I think geotechnical engineers are the key to successfully stretching the dollar and making it go a long way. Excellent. What a great note. What a great note. Thank you so much. We're going to stick around. We're going to come back after a short break. And then we're going to ask Guna, our last question, and it's going to be about our career factor of safety. Please stick around. All right. Welcome back. It's time for our career factor of safety in segment. In geotechnical engineering, like many disciplines of engineering, it's important to incorporate a factor of safety into your design, which actually I guess just referenced. But with incorporating a factor of safety, can you also do that in your career? So today, of course, we're talking with Guna, who is the current ASCE national president. And our question is that, you know, you immigrated from India. And I understand that that means that you took on lots of risk and you had to deal with uncertainty. Yet you created an amazing career for yourself. What advice would you give for geotextor listening that may be forced to take on risk and deal with uncertainty? How can they have success in their careers and in their lives? Well, I don't know whether you want to call it sometimes being naive, stupid, or being smart. You know, when I decided to come to the US to pursue my degree, I already, you know, you know, met my love of my life and recorded each other. And we spent seven years trying to convince my parents because that was not the traditional way of how people get married in India at that time. My wife and I come from different backgrounds. But, you know, I, you know, neither one of us, you know, the common language that united us is English. You know, her, her, her lying mother tongue is Cindy and mine is Tamil. And they're two different, totally different languages, totally different scripts and two different backgrounds. So I took that leap of faith and, you know, got married to her before I came here. I was offered a teaching assistantship at Texas Tech at 650 bucks a month. And, you know, it was a three year stint. And we, you know, had a child while I was pursuing my PhD and managed it with 650 bucks a month. And then I was told that the funding was running out. So I had to go seek a job. I was not too familiar and I went ahead and found myself a job in Dallas, Texas. And that's when the market was turning down. I realized it and I lost the job in three months. And then I had a wife and a child and no job, no financial support. I still had to finish up my PhD program. And so decided to go back to Lubbock and finish up my PhD and go back home if I had it too. But fortunately, you know, landed another job and had to work in the field doing the concrete testing, asshole testing and everything else. And I had to commute from Amarillo, Texas to Lubbock, Texas every weekend, leave my wife and child in Amarillo come on Friday nights, work on my dissertation Saturday Sunday, go back home on Sunday night and start working Monday morning. And then ran into one of those situations with my dissertation where my findings were contrary to the belief at that time, this was industrial floor slabs where the concept then was if the loading was high, you have to increase the thickness of the slab. But my finding was now if your sub grade is, you know, sustainable and stable, then you don't need a thicker slab because of reversal of stresses at the stack and high loads and stuff. So the slab has to be thin and so on. And I was told that maybe I need to restart all over again with my dissertation. And I said no. And fortunately for me at that time, my advisor, Kent Ray was kind enough to listen to me and said, okay, add those two as two additional chapters in your dissertation. And maybe we can see if we can convince the committee to let you graduate. So it was kind of an interesting because back home you grew up with the philosophy that once you get to work for somebody, you stayed and worked for them for life. So, you know, for me to get a job and lose a job in three months and to be away from family and home with the wife and child to support no means of financial income and having to finish up my task of finishing my PhD and then move on. It was kind of interesting, but I kept my head down. But fortunately, my wife was very supportive and strong and she stood by me and we survived. So I always tell people, yes, when the going gets tough, the tough get going. That's the saying, right? So you just need to be focused and determined on what your objective and goal is because even when the choices were given to me about switching from a PhD to a master's and go get a job in Silicon Valley or do something else, my focus was here and I was bent on the PhD in civil engineering, in geotechnical engineering. And that's kind of what I wanted to do and I have the same advice for my children. You know, once you have an engineering background, you will do well in any career, whether it's in finance, whether it's in medicine or whatever, with an engineering way of thinking, you can never go wrong in dealing with life's challenges. So my son, he's finished his MD PhD, he's a biomedical, but he's also finished his MD because I told him, I said, even if you want to go into medicine, you'll be a good doctor or a better doctor with an engineering background. And my daughter's also got a double master's in biomedical too. So that's what I tell people, you never go wrong with any of those types of backgrounds. And you never waste any of those experiences. And you should be willing to take risks. You know, with risk comes reward. And I am here today because I was willing to take those risks. Not only with my, during my PhD program and with the job, then when I decided to move from Lubbock to go somewhere else to try something new, came here, the opportunity to go work for a large firm, one of the largest design projects in the country. And now to be able to go to another firm, one of the largest companies in the country with opportunities are lower, you know, things will show up, you know, you just have to keep your head down, keep, you know, as I said, never say no, take on every opportunity, learn something, don't make the same mistake, don't don't do stupid things. But at the same token, you have to have that balance of life and work and enjoy what you're doing. And as I've told my kids, you need to get up every morning and wanting to get up every morning and go do the things because you're passionate about it. Don't chase after money. Even with my employees, I tell them, don't compare yourself with somebody else with whether it's position or salary, because you'll always find an idiot somewhere higher than you making more money. And guess who it's going to make, make, whose life it's going to make miserable, yours, not his, because he doesn't care, he's making more, he or she's making more money and having a better title. You just do whatever you want, you challenge yourself and be happy with what you do. And then you'll get there. So my thing is, you know, be optimistic, be willing to take some rest. And, you know, good things will come to you. And I'm very optimistic, as I've said, I'm a fairly optimistic person. I think the future is very bright for our profession or our industry. And I think, you know, for generations to come, but the national, the global population growing, there's always going to be need for infrastructure. We're going to hit nine billion people. And there's going to be a lot of need for good infrastructure to improve the quality of life. So who better to do it than us civil engineers? And who better to build the foundation for the sustainable infrastructure geotechnical engineers? Even to that. Thank you so much. Guna, I tell you, if I wasn't a geotechnical engineer, I'd become one tonight. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing such great insights with us. And we thank you of course for your service to the American Civil Engineers as the president. You've shared some great information for our listeners and some advice that's really going to help them and myself. The question I have is where can listeners find you? Are you on social media? Yeah, that's one of the things, you know, you're talking about mentoring, mentoring both ways. You know, my daughter, you know, she she mentored me, she got me on all the social media platforms. The first year she told me don't post anything without checking with me first. Now she thinks I'm mature enough to post on my own without checking with her. So in my hand is Gunnarlin KN at Gunnarlin KN. So you'll find me. I've got a web, they've got a web page. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Facebook. But one thing that I promised when I ran for this office, I said I won't tweet in the middle of the night. So deliberate because I'm respectful of the position that I hold. And I'm very careful and deliberate about what I tweet or post. So, but you can always reach me at kngunnarlin at gmail.com or k.n.gunnarlin.com. Excellent. Thank you so much. We appreciate all that you're doing. It's a pleasure and a privilege to represent all of you. Thank you for having me here this morning. I hope that you enjoyed the episode today. We would love to hear your feedback, your comments or your questions. Please feel free to go to geotechnicalengineeringpodcast.com where you'll find a summary of the key points discussed in today's episode, that being episode two, as well as links to any of the resources, websites, or books mentioned during this episode. Until next time, we wish you the best in all your geotechnical engineering endeavors.