 Coming up on DTNS, what Microsoft is really up to with acquiring Activision Blizzard, Samsung's big bet on mobile gaming and space planes. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, January 19th, 2022 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood. I'm Sarah Lane in Salt Lake City. I'm Scott Johnson and I'm Roger Chang. The show is pretty sir. There is a longer version of this show called Good Day Internet, where in sometimes we cast ourselves in the roles of the A team. You can get that at patreon.com slash DTNS. Big thanks to our top patrons today. They include Bjorn Andre, Jeff Wilkes and Paul Reese. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Ninety one mobiles. Notice that a support page for Samsung's Bixby voice assistant showed an unfamiliar Samsung tablet. The unidentified tablet included a notch for the camera and was attached to a foldable keyboard cover. The verge of speculating this might be the forthcoming Samsung Galaxy Tab S8 Ultra expected to be announced next month. The makers of the Opera browser launched a crypto browser in beta. You can get it on Android, Windows and Mac. iOS version is apparently coming soon. It includes a built in wallet with support for several popular blockchains and you will be able to view NFTs and purchase cryptocurrency directly from the browser. It also supports decentralized apps with a dedicated crypto corner for blockchain related news. Instagram launched Instagram subscriptions for in an alpha test for a very few US select creators who can now offer their followers paid access to exclusive Instagram live videos and stories. Subscribers also get a special badge if they comment on these stories and if they send messages to the creators to kind of say, hey, look me, I'm pain. There are eight different price points. They range from 99 cents up to $99.99 per month. Subscriber only stories will show up as a purple ring to designate them different than the other stories. Re-sharing the content to non-subscribers is a violation of Instagram's terms and creators are being encouraged to report anybody screenshotting or recording their content. Get money from your audience, then snitch on them. Sounds great. Apple sent a letter to the US Senate Justice Committee Tuesday claiming that two proposed bills would increase the risk of security breaches. The American Innovation and Choice Online Act would prohibit dominant platforms from favoring their own products on the platform, looking at you, Amazon, as well as Apple. And the Open App Markets Act would prevent things like limiting alternative payment systems. Both bills would allow for side loading of apps kind of stop you from preventing it. And Apple wrote that if it allows side loading, quote, millions of Americans will likely suffer malware attacks on their phones that would otherwise have been stopped. Almost sounds like a threat. A Senate spokesperson said, quote, the bill does not force Apple to allow unscreened apps onto Apple devices. Netflix continued its slow development of a free mobile gaming service as part of your recently more expensive Netflix subscription. A card battler called Arkanium Rise of a Con and a hidden object game called Crispy Street are two new additions. You can download both on Android and iOS for free and log in with a Netflix account to play. Arkanium launched on Steam back in 2020. And that's why you might find that name familiar. Crispy Street is based on the web comic and the fourth for Netflix is Frosty Pop. Netflix now has 12 mobile games available to its subscribers. That's the fourth game from developer Frosty Pop. Crispy Street is. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, that game is pretty good. Arkanium is pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I have it on Steam. It's it's a good time. That seems like a pretty good get when Netflix streaming was just like a bunch of of movies that you probably weren't that interested in. Everybody thought it was crazy. And then now it's the dominant business model. I don't know. Feels a little similar. Yeah. Build it up slowly over time. Well, let's talk about U.S. based radian aerospace, OK, because they have an announcement. They've announced plans to develop a single stage to orbit space plane. That's right. Everybody get the use of that term. This is a spacecraft that can take off from a runway like a regular airplane can do, ignite rocket or rocket engines and reach orbit and then return to Earth and then land on a runway. Radiant or radian, rather, has been designing this since 2016 and co-founder and CTO Livingston Holder, a former Boeing rocket scientist said, we all understand how difficult this is. Radian wisely isn't promising a date for the first test flight, but thinks it's reasonable to expect operational capability before the end of the decade. The current design could take up to five people and 5,000 pounds of cargo into orbit powered by three liquid-fueled engines. It has built and tested an engine with 200,000 pounds of thrust. That is a lot of thrust. Radian has benefited from the development of lightweight composites, super-chilling liquid propellants for better performance and the prevalence of private money available for space companies. NASA wants to foster development of the private space station in orbit and orbital planes like radians would be helpful in making this practical. It could also serve to carry goods manufactured in space and potentially speed up point-to-point Earth on service or service on Earth, rather, Earth on service. Bring me Earth. Bring me Earth now. You could carry Earth from one point of the Earth to another. I suppose that that would be true, too. That was the thing that struck me is, listen, I'm not I'm not going to space. If you listen to the show often enough, you would know that just not going to happen. But the idea that this could use runways to take off, be able to get up higher, go faster, quicker and bring goods and services to other places on Earth. That's cool. What about? I don't know. What's what's a place you really like? Paris, right? You really like visiting Paris, right? Totally. Yes. What if you could go San Francisco to Paris in an hour? I would want that. As long as I don't have to go to space. You're with space the way I am with like deep, dark water. I totally understand this feeling. I totally get it, but it just it just frightens me. You know, it's I don't think it's it's not that I'm like, oh, space is uncool. It's very cool. I just want all of you to go and let me know how it is. Take photos. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the, you know, obviously a lot of you are probably like, oh, people have been talking about doing this for decades and they'll never make it work. And I think that's why Livingston Holder, who previously worked on the X-33 projects for Boeing when NASA was trying to develop it in the 90s is like, look, we understand how difficult this is. He's trying not to say like, we, you know, we're going to over promise and say this is it. But it does feel like he thinks he's got a shot. Anyway, Roger, I know you've been following this for for a long time. What do you think? I think the biggest change that we've seen with with this product or at least this proposal is that the the space for investors in the non-government commercial area of space launches has grown considerably ever since SpaceX has become a household word for a non-government agents or entity putting up payloads in orbit. I think there's a lot more investors and I think Radeon is trying to leverage some of that investment momentum into their particular design. Now, this is the thing, his this particular design is, as you said, has been tried before but has so far been unsuccessful as in there has not been a single stage use rocket or not rocket but space plane produced to date. And in some fashion or other, it's been stacked on top of a rocket booster launch in orbit or like the space shuttle where it glides back to Earth but it does not go into orbit on its own power. If they have something here, it'd be great to see but so far the details are a little too vague. Yeah, yeah, but they're just coming out of stealth so we might still get the details or they might not have them, we'll just have to wait around and find out. Well, speaking of details, we mentioned yesterday that Samsung finally announced its Exynos, I always want to say Exnyos, Exynos 2200 phone chip. This is the flagship chip that goes into Samsung phones and some parts of the world, mostly in Asia and Europe. The US generally get Samsung phones with Snapdragon inside but this Exynos chip is different and worth examining a little bit more closely because as we said yesterday, it's the first mobile system on a chip with a GPU known as X-Clips with an X, running AMD's RDNA2 graphics architecture and manufactured on Samsung's four nanometer EUV process allowing for hardware accelerated ray tracing. It's the first hardware accelerated ray tracing meant for a phone, so that's significant. You may recall that ray tracing got a bit of a moment in the sun back in 2018 when Nvidia introduced the RTX line. The Exynos 2200 won't be equivalent though. It's not quite as powered as current Xbox and PlayStation chips but it isn't far off either. CNX Andrew Hoyle points out that older titles like Skyrim, The Witcher 3 and Dark Souls could do well off of an Android phone using the Exynos 2200. He writes, quote, I can see a time when I opt not to renew my Game Pass subscription in favor of a mobile based gaming platform similar to Apple Arcade perhaps that offers a quality of game not so far seen on the Google Play Store. Of course he notes that Samsung needs to actually put out the chip in a phone as it is expected to do in the S22 and we can see how well this all performs. But all the same, it's intriguing. It's a step forward to mobile gaming, especially given the growth in mobile gaming. The Verges J Peters points out on Marketplace, pointed out on Marketplace last week that console gaming now has 28% of the market. PC gaming holds 20% and mobile gaming is the vast majority. Yeah. And now mobile gaming can do ray tracings. Yeah, it can. Ray tracing when it first happened, the original RTX stuff that came out with the 2080s, or I guess the 1080 had a version that had maybe supported it a little bit, I can't remember, but the point is when that first happened, there was a lot of excitement but very little of anything came out of it because A, it wasn't that powerful so you weren't seeing it in newer titles. And if you were, it was like little bits and pieces not the full experience wasn't shrouded in real time light physics, the way that we kind of expect out of the ray tracing promise. But enough time has passed now and now that we're at 3080s and beyond and some equivalent cards from AMD and also these new consoles, they all support various levels of real time ray tracing technology. And it's impressive to the point that it will become standard at one point. At some point or another, this will all be what we get in terms of how it applies to mobile. I don't know that part of my problem with some of the quotes there are that the idea of playing the Witcher or some of these other kinds of games, which by the way is like seven years old now, the Witcher, Witcher three, playing those on phones is a fine idea but it doesn't account for touchscreen, it doesn't account for a lot of things. So ray tracing is the least of my questions there. That being said, mobile is here to stay, mobile will continue to grow, mobile will continue to have better access to controllers and other ways of making things happen on these devices. And just like desktop GPUs, ray tracing will sort of creep in a little bit slowly at first and then become standard. And then we'll just be used to seeing cool, real time lighting physics as if it was no problem. Whereas in the years past, it took Pixar, a giant server farm to create fake light. Now we can do it in real time and that's huge but I'm not sure it's the boon to mobile gaming that some people think. It's a boon, but maybe not the boon. It's a step in the right direction. It's kind of like when phones went 3D in general or when phones added, not ray tracing, but like bump mapping or environmental reflection effects or 60 frame per second or 120 Hertz refresh rates. These sorts of things are all incremental changes that make it possible for something like ray tracing to come in, but as soon as it does and becomes mainstream, we're not going to call it anything or think of anything. This will just be how games are rendered and we're all going to live in a fantastic future where we don't appreciate what it used to be like. That's how it will be. I think I've got two thoughts on this. One is it is interesting to see mobile chips and Samsung is the one ahead right at this moment with this release, but see mobile chips get closer to console chips faster than console chips are improving, right? The gap is narrowing. Even if the gap is not near gone, the gap is narrowing. So that is interesting. And I think that's where you can rightly be excited. And I think that's what Andy is excited about here. The other thing is he mentions the idea of like, oh, not renew my Game Pass subscription. We're going to talk a lot about Microsoft strategy with Game Pass later, but one part of that is streaming games becoming a bigger and bigger part of that subscription. And once you can stream a game, it doesn't matter if your chip can do ray tracing or not, as long as your internet connection is good enough and the latency is low enough, you can play whatever game you want without worrying about the stuff. So then it becomes like, there's a race here of like, how fast can chips improve and be compelling before these services maybe get so popular if they ever do that no one cares about the hardware anymore. Yeah, and it will come down to, it's not that Tom won't appreciate ray tracing when it's coming to him, but will it be coming out of his phone in his hand or will it be coming through the internet from hardware that supports ray tracing that is nowhere near you? And there's a big argument to say that that's the future and this is very interim, but we'll see. Yeah. Well, folks, we take a lot of cues about what to talk about on this show from you. One way to tell us what you want to hear on the show is our subreddit, submit stories and vote on them at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com. All right, let's get at it. Microsoft CEO Sachin Nadella delineated cloud community and content. Mentioned that yesterday as three main areas, the acquisition of Activision Blizzard addresses. This also diversifies Microsoft's growth away from enterprise. There's a whole question about whether the US antitrust forces, Lena Khan are gonna go after this and stop Microsoft or not. It's a vertical merger. Those seem to be out of favor. But for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume that Microsoft still in the good graces gets this done probably sometime in 2023. Why do they want it? If they don't want to monopolize the market. Microsoft's Game Pass, I think is a big part of the answer. It grew 39% in the past year to 25 million. But that's still behind PlayStation Plus. PlayStation Plus had 47.2 million as of September 30th. However, Microsoft may be making more money off of theirs. Research company Omida says consumer spending on cloud game services reached $3.7 billion last year and Microsoft's Game Pass accounted for 60% of that. And as we just kind of mentioned, mobile is dominant. People are playing on phones. You may not like it, but that's what's happening. And the big money is in the big titles that aren't on mobile. So who wouldn't want to take the big money from the big titles on consoles and PC and put them in front of that huge mobile audience? Cross platform cloud services marry the big title attraction and money with the big mobile platform. And Microsoft is out to an early lead on the streaming side of this, nudging in front of GeForce Now while Sony still deals with downloads. This may inform what exclusivity means in the future. Bloomberg says Microsoft, quote, plans to keep making some of Activision's games for PlayStation consoles, but will also keep some content exclusive to Xbox. An easy way to have Microsoft own games on PlayStation though, would be to have Game Pass available on PlayStation. Now you may say, why would Sony ever agree to that? Microsoft's gonna have 32 internal studios if this acquisition goes through. Sony right now has 17. So Microsoft will have an edge in content. Microsoft could use, let's say Call of Duty as well as other titles as leverage. It's tough because Call of Duty going off the PlayStation would hurt Microsoft a lot, but the carrot they could put in front of Sony is the idea that maybe all Microsoft exclusives would be playable on the PlayStation through Xbox Game Pass, if they were to allow that. The other carrot would be cooperating on PlayStation Plus on PC. Maybe you say, let us show up in your platform, we'll let you show up on at least one of ours, if not both. Don't forget that in 2019, Sony and Microsoft agreed to explore Azure, the cloud service that Microsoft provides to Power PlayStation Plus. So they're already partnering up. Wednesday, Sony told the Wall Street Journal that the two companies are still talking about jointly developing cloud solutions for video games in the medium to long term. Now, we shouldn't overestimate the pressure Sony feels by all of this, while Microsoft's game revenue will get uncomfortably close if this acquisition goes through, video game business made up a little more than a quarter of Sony's operating profit in the most recent half year. The rest of it was Spider-Man. Well, not exactly, but don't forget, Sony's got a very profitable movie arm. It sells image sensors to Apple. Its other businesses feel especially strong right now. And in gaming, it has twice the subscribers member to PS Plus and the PS5 is the world's top selling console. So it has a lead. Microsoft just needs to convince them that cooperating will make sure they don't blow it. What do you think is the likelihood that Sony and Microsoft would come to some sort of agreement, and this goes both ways, where say you have a PlayStation, you can play whatever you want through Xbox Game Pass, if that's the way you have to get that game. Well, Phil Spencer has been on the record as saying they approached Nintendo with this information because they thought maybe the Switch would be a perfect portable window to all things Game Pass and doing it all via the cloud. And he's right, it would be. And they just flat out turned them down. Now that's a little different because it's Nintendo, they already sing to their own song, they already danced to their own tune. They're not really playing in this console. This traditional console war we think of has not been Nintendo's place for a long time. They have their own place and it's weird and good on them. But in the case of Sony and Microsoft, this is where the war is. And I think this signals Microsoft saying we don't care about what's happening on the ground of this war, we care about what's happening in the air of this war, or what will happen in the future of this war. It's not about the console wars anymore or hardware, it's about dominance and services and bringing games to people on whatever platform they're on. That's a game changer just in terms of the conversation. So to answer your question, the chances of Sony capitulating, I think at the moment are low, but I think in the long term might be okay. I mean, there's plenty of rumors still floating around that Sony is working in the background on a improved plus system. They stopped selling PlayStation Plus cards at stores. So many think they're gonna refresh whatever that means and maybe come up with something that's like Game Pass. The problem I see is it feels a little stopgap. A month ago, I may have told you that that was the right thing for Sony to do and the best chance for them to compete in this future. But after this acquisition, I'm more convinced than ever that even Game Pass as a download service, which it still primarily is, is still just a stopgap temporary thing that the market will bear for as long as it bears before everything goes cloud-based. And like it or not, we're heading that direction. So if Sony equaled Game Pass with their own first-party titles plus third-party titles and at least gave an equal sort of value there, I'm not sure that's enough. I think that just does the stopgap and not beyond it. So I think there is a future where Sony but other platform holders of lots of types, Roku and Amazon Firesticks and Apple TVs and a lot of people would maybe line up and say, well, Microsoft is like, it's like Netflix now and we all want Netflix apps on our devices, right? Why aren't we making a deal with those guys? I agree, it's not that simple. It does feel a lot like apps that are built into TVs or you could get on, I don't know, Apple TV or Roku or Firestick or whatever. Same idea, especially with PlayStation 4s, you don't. Sony's gonna be shipping quite a few of those consoles for some time now. And PlayStation 5s as well, but still hard to come by. And the idea that it's like, listen, we got all these consoles but we don't want people to say, well, okay, you've got 17 studios, Microsoft is 32. Like, it's like way more than you. And that's where a lot of the cool new stuff, supposedly, will be coming from. So yeah, I don't know how long this whole exclusivity thing can go on without the consumer saying, well, okay, I just have to make a choice now, I can't have both. That's traditionally been the breakdown, right? Is you buy the console because it has the exclusives you want. I think that's going away. I think what we're headed towards is Microsoft, Satya Nadella is like, hey, remember when everybody thought we were crazy for giving away windows because that was our big money maker? And then suddenly we were dominant in cloud and Microsoft Azure made us more profitable than ever and we're a hugely profitable company. Let's do that in gaming. It's a little different because, you know, Windows was a dominant platform and Xbox is not a dominant platform. It has more competition, but they can pull the same maneuvers, which is like, do some crazy stuff, expect Microsoft to do some stuff you wouldn't expect them to do with Xbox Game Pass as far as where they make it available, who they let onto the platform. Maybe, I don't know, maybe a Microsoft studio puts out a PlayStation exclusive as an exchange for this. Obviously there's going to be a lot on the back end where they're getting Sony a deal on Azure in order in exchange for some stuff, but you wouldn't have thought Microsoft would be out there giving away office on an iPad, but they're not. They're getting a subscription. That's what they want to do with Game Pass. They want Game Pass to be everywhere the way office is everywhere. Microsoft 365 is everywhere, and they can handle it across the board. Yeah, and they have all the back end to do it. The other part that they have is being able to compete nicely. They make hardware and yet also have hardware makers as clients, so they may be trying to look at Sony and say like, hey, we make surface stuff at HP still fine with us. We could be the same way. Yeah, and keep in mind, this is, we're now, I don't know how many six, eight months after this happened, Sony and a very weird move let their MLB, the show, very popular baseball game that they've made for years. It's an internally made game. It's Sony produced game. They put that on Game Pass. That's still up on Game Pass. You just play that if you have Game Pass. Yeah, that was unheard of. This is just the weirdest idea ever. And on the other side, Microsoft held to the agreement after buying Bethesda and pushed Deathloop, which was a Bethesda project on PlayStation 5 exclusively. You can't get, well, it's on PC, but you can't get it on Xbox. So they're already kind of playing nice if for lack of a better term. And I think that's, they're playing to continue is to say, oh, all right, well, if you don't want it, that's okay. And then they'll just keep making it bigger and bigger and bigger, and they'll have all the studios in the world. And before you know it, everybody's doing some form of Game Pass. I think that's what they want. Because if PlayStation Plus is running on Azure, then it's in Microsoft's best interest to have PlayStation Plus be very successful. So they still keep getting money from Sony for Azure. I mean, it makes me wonder, especially in Europe, if they're going to hit roadblocks on this deal. I know that's a whole different discussion, probably for many shows in the future. Yeah, there's a whole discussion to be had about antitrust. But when we talk about this, when we talk about this, how they've got like so much that they would not control, but like we have you on Azure. We also have Game Pass. We own all these studios and we just spent 70 billion on whoever. It starts to smell a little fishy, even though I'm stoked about it and generally have optimism about it, it's still starting to feel a little like someone's going to get talked to, I guess. I don't know. Ask the movie industry how the world felt about them owning the theaters, the distribution and the content, the movies and they broke that up. So we might have similar problems with Microsoft here. We'll see. Oh, let's jump to this. Hey, in 2019, this is not the nicest story in the world, but we'll do it anyway. A driver of a Tesla Model S hit a Honda Civic in California. And this accident ended up killing the Civic's two passengers. The state of California is prosecuting the driver of the Tesla for two counts of vehicular manslaughter. The court documents do not mention autopilot, but the U.S. and HTSA confirmed in its investigation of the crash that autopilot was on. This would be the first driver using autopilot to face charges. However, it is unclear if autopilot will be material in the case or not. We were talking about this. If it's not, it's not really a big story, still a sad story and terrible for people involved, this may not be a story at all if it wasn't on. If it is on, suddenly this is huge news. I mean, I know that this is the first of, hopefully not many cases, but I don't know, I fear that it's the first of many. And I could see where somebody who is defending themselves in the court of law would say, well, it wasn't me. I was just letting the car do its thing. I don't really know what's going on with the car. I did not do this. And that is my defense for why it is not manslaughter against myself, but against the car in some capacity. And I wonder what that is going to make the future of these cases look like. Yeah, there is no mention of autopilot in the court documents means the prosecution doesn't appear to be leaning on that in any way. And the defense has not brought it up yet. Yeah. I doubt they will. That's my gut reaction is I doubt they will because right now there's just no precedent for saying that I was in control of the car. And it's very clear in the Tesla literature that autopilot is not an out. You are still in control of the car. You're responsible for everything. So it would be a pretty weak defense. But if it comes up at all in this court case, we're gonna hear about this again. All right, let's check out the mailbag. Jordan wrote in and said, after hearing your various conversations on DTNS and also GDI about Apple's entry into AR and VR, how they may or may not work with the metaverse. Allow me to offer a bold prediction. Jordan says, Apple will not just avoid focus on the metaverse, they will actively deride and disparage all the talk about the metaverse and turn it into a meme to make fun of while presenting new hardware that skips all that stuff and focuses directly on the fitness and entertainment experiences that their new hardware provides access to. They'll be definitely will have social elements to it, but not virtual worlds with avatars and collectibles which try to replicate boring real world things like meetings. Jordan obviously has a stance on this already. Jordan says, I think Apple may announce that their hardware is similar to how they announced the iPhone and make a meme out of physical keyboards. And later they introduced the iPad while making fun of the stylus and they introduced the pencil later on. They like to take something obvious, something just assumed to be part of the product line because of what other companies are doing or saying and subvert it in a way that only seems obvious and retrospect and makes other companies seem behind the times. Jordan says, as somebody who loves video games, VR experiences and other bleeding edge tech stuff, this metaverse talk just sounds like pure nonsense to me that most customers won't care about. Fluff that gets in the way of accessing the real cool experiences which are possible. Yeah, I've got a tip that won't work forever. But for the next couple of years, whenever you hear someone say metaverse, think VR and AR. And suddenly what they're saying will make more sense. Yeah, because it's so undefined right now. And that's all most companies mean. They're just saying metaverse because it's buzzy. But they're talking about their VR and AR strategies. Right, right. I think he's not wrong. I think he's not wrong about Apple coming out and trying to subvert things by saying, here's a big clunky head thing. Why would you wear that? But now you'll do this. And it may even be something they would introduce later themselves. They've definitely been known to do that. Here's our clunky head thing, but it's very expensive. Yeah, it's so expensive. You may not be able to afford it, but this is the future and then people will buy it. So there you go. I mean, it's not like Apple is any stranger to like cutesy hypocrisy. Well, sure that. But also, you know, kind of, you know, like emojis and, you know, that sort of thing. This is, I get where you're going with this Jordan. And I think you might be right that Apple spins. This is something that, you know, they feel are above the metaverse in some way, but it's all kind of the same thing. Yeah, it is. And they'll have to, you know, they'll take whatever place they take it. It'll be fine. If you have feedback on the metaverse, AR, VR or anything we talk about on the show, anything we might talk about on a future show, please do send your thoughts our way. We'd love to hear from you when you make our show better every day. Feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We also want to extend a special thanks to Edward. Edward is one of our top Lifetime supporters for DTNS. We would like to thank Edward for all the years of support. Yay, Edward. Yay. Team Edward. Whether or not you have scissor hands. Scott Johnson, we'd like to thank you as well. I wish you had scissor hands that would just make you that much cooler, but we'll take you as is. That's hard. It's hard to type with scissor hands. I've learned. Yeah, I've had all kinds of stuff going on. I did want to, it's funny in a weird way. This new show I launched retro, play retro is about retro gaming, which is kind of the antithesis of all this talk about metaverse and Microsoft's acquisition and game studios and, you know, games as a service and all of that. And it might be a nice break for some people to kind of go back to the way things were. But we also talk about playing this stuff today in modern ways and VR in other ways. Old arcade favorites of yours. What if you could put a headset on and walk into a fake arcade and play it there? It's the whole gamut. So check it out. We're really proud of it. We're three or four episodes in right now. You can find it. The name of the show is play retro wherever you get your podcasts or these grab it on all the services. They're all linked over at frogpants.com slash play retro. Well, as always, we thank you for being with us. Scott Johnson and reminder, we are live Monday through Friday at 4 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC. We are on demand, but we're also live. So join us live. If you can't daily technewshow.com slash live is where to find out more about how to do that. And we'll be back tomorrow with Justin Rubber Young and Len Peralta. Talk to you then. This show is part of the frog pants network. Get more at frogpants.com. The club hopes you have enjoyed this program.