 Okay, David we're here to talk about drought preparedness in Australia What do you think of the main sort of issues facing Australian farmers in particular? I think there's a raft of issues that they have to deal with one is the way that climate is changing so 600 mils of rain now is not what 600 mils of rain was in 1950 simply because of the high temperatures and greater evaporation which which means that you know You have to farm with less in terms of true moisture availability. So that's a big issue the other the other key issue is that We've run down some of the really important natural assets on farms farm dams Shelter belts those kinds of things and we need to reinvest in those as part of drought preparedness and getting people ready For the next drought that's going to be inevitable that comes through so Phil from your perspective How do you think farmers are going in terms of their mental health and you know where they're at with these kinds of conditions? it's hard to generalize to all farmers but Farmers do have some protective factors that support their mental health Typically rural communities have fairly strong social connections Farmers tend to be fairly resilient But that doesn't always prevent them from having difficulties with depression or anxiety and so on We also know that farmers can tend to be fairly stoic have fairly high self-reliance which can be a barrier to them getting care and we know that the types of Health services that are available in rural areas aren't really the same as what you see in urban areas So that can be a real challenge for farmers. So Particularly in times of drought when or other kind of life stressors that farmers might face Can increase the risk that that somebody in a rural area will experience a mental health problem And so we've got to think of different ways to deliver these types of services in rural areas to make those sorts of things available When farmers do find that they're struggling. So what what might be some of the differences between say Sydney or Canberra and Wagga or Geraldton, what what are some of the differences in mental health services between those places? Well, the big challenge is the restriction in terms of geographic isolation So we can't have the same sort of Proportion of GPS or psychologists in in rural areas There's probably less incentive for professionals to move to those areas So we've got to think about other ways to deliver services or to encourage Health services into those regions E mental health services are one aspect that I work on in terms of having cognitive behavioral therapy available through the internet And we've shown that these types of services can be highly effective for people who are experiencing Multi-moderate mental health problems so it can kind of bridge some of that gap where we don't have health services in those communities okay, so Does that connect with older farmers as well that night and be as sort of digitally sort of savvy as as younger farmers? Yeah, that is a challenge that not everybody likes to have health care delivered through the internet or a mobile phone But we do find that we do reach a kind of very broad cross-section of the community Often uptake is higher in rural areas where they might not have other services available And we're finding increasingly that older people are becoming more trusting or more more familiar with these types of technologies and using them More extensively when they have the problem. Yeah, right. So so it sounds like one of the things that needs to be thought through here in terms of you know drought policy actually needs to connect with health policy and and Health delivery policy and those kinds of things. Yeah, I think you're right And I think we have to think of it from a multi-disciplinary perspective We're sustainable farms at ANU. We're looking at outcomes from an ecological environmental perspective Which which you're leading. I'm looking at the mental health and wellbeing aspects of farmers and and how they struggle with that or or persevere through difficult conditions and we're also working with others looking at the financial aspects of farming and how Overcome some of those challenges and where those intersections lie because all of these things are highly interactive. Okay, so there's That really is a key part of our project isn't it in the sense of There are mental health connections to how well you're doing financially But there are financial connections to how well your farm is doing environmentally in terms of the assets and then one of the missing links at the moment is that link between environmental Condition of a farm and the mental health state of farmers precisely and that's what we're starting to explore and getting more data around that So that we can answer that question more specifically over the next few years Building on a range of research that's been done in each of these areas bringing them all together So how how might you do that kind of linking what what sorts of techniques and study methods? Would you use to try to get at some of those difficult multidisciplinary kinds of questions? Yeah, well it is a challenge and and we're working on that at the moment We kind of triangulating from a range of different research perspectives looking at how health services play into rural mental health Looking at some of the data on the ecological well-being of the farm and how that relates to the farmers self-reported mental health and well-being And then looking at other aspects as to what can support the well-being of the farmer and how Finances as a will play into that as well. Okay. Yeah, so so This is a sort of fairly broad and provocative question But do you feel as as though there's sufficient funding in place to be able to create the right architecture for Improving mental health outcomes in rural Australia? I think it's always a challenge and mental health has often been the poor cousin of physical health in terms of research funding So we're always looking for ways to further expand our research so we can look at some of these questions It's also difficult to get the mechanisms in place to get funding for this type of multi-disciplinary research Because that's not typically the sort of thing that say NHMRC or AIC AIC might fund So most of the funding for this project has come through philanthropic sources But we're also looking to as to how we can grow this project to Influence policy outcomes Policymakers as well as working with the farmers as well and and through these sorts of mechanisms We can have the impact that then brings in further money further funding to better understand these processes So I guess I'm interested in your perspective on how we can influence the policy debate around what can be done for farmers By policy makers in particular. Yeah, that's that is a good thought because traditionally what I I Perceive in Australian agricultural policy is that when we have a drought it's treated as a disaster and You know we have disaster aid as it were and my sense of it is that perhaps we need to re To reimagine and reconfigure that the discussion around How how do we invest in the assets the natural assets on a farm to to make Farmers more resilient to these kinds of natural events that are increasingly prevalent So there are going to be even more challenges that we're facing So how do we change the way for example farm dams and other water infrastructure on farms work? So that when we have the next inevitable drought period, it's not a disaster. Yes, it's very challenging But they have the the scaffolding the architecture around them to be able to better deal with those kinds of things and My hope would be that that would mean that they'll be financially better off but also physically and mentally better off so that that sort of triangle of Key aims about improving the environment of condition Improving the financial outcome and the mental health outcomes all go together as a sort of part of a holistic approach To tackling the problem rather than the you know drought policy must be the sole Responsibility of the Department of Agriculture when in fact there's a financial side or an environmental side and a medical and and Psychological side to it. Yeah, and it's interesting to see the parallels between all these areas In mental health. We have a big focus on prevention So it's not just reacting to the crisis when it happens But thinking about how we can scaffold farmers how we can make the more resilient so that when these sorts of outcomes Such as drought occur They can be more prepared to face them. Yeah because my sense of it is if the current trends on Warming continue and the current trends on drying continue then conditions are only going to become more and more challenging and and Thinking about how we can equip people to deal with the challenges Rather than coming as an ambulance each time There's a there's an issue like that would would put everybody in a much better better space And I think that the Australian taxpayer would see a better return on their investment In the agricultural sector as well So that's that's equipping farmers to be able to to to deal with many of these resilient resilience issues themselves Because nobody likes to be on kind of agricultural welfare. They want to be able to to Have the capacity to deal with these things themselves. That's that's very much part of the psyche of a lot of these very Rugged individualists to be able to work out how they can deal with these problems themselves. Yeah, and how do you see that link to? better environment Leading to greater biodiversity outcomes as well Well, I think this is one of the the exciting things about where sustainable farms fits is that if we can Start to change the narrative around here are the benefits of improving the water quality and the and the water persistence on your farm That will give you a better production outcome in terms of livestock and weight gain in in cattle and sheep But if you do it in in us in a smart way using good science, we'll get a biodiversity dividend as well and We know that some of the farmers are anecdotally reporting that they're When they invest in these restoration programs on their farms, not only do they do better Financially but it seems as though their mental welfare is in a much better state as well So I think there are some exciting win-win-win outcomes across these social economic and environmental spaces that often people theorize about Rarely realize but I think there's an opportunity here in the Australian agricultural space to really do something quite special