 I'm now delighted truly to welcome our speaker, Richard Benjamin is visiting professor in slavery and public engagement at the University of Liverpool. And he is on secondment from his role as head of the International Slavery Museum and co-director of the Center for the Study of International Slavery. Richard gained his first degree in community and race relations and an MA and PhD in archaeology. He's been a visiting scholar at Harvard University as a trustee of the Anthony Walker Foundation and advises Everton Football Club on equality issues. His current research focuses on black museology from diverse museum practice to the development of black cultural spaces and associated artistic cultural and social movements. So Richard over to you. Thank you, Ed, for that kind introduction. Thank you for the invitation to say a few words here today from yourself and your colleagues in Research Libraries UK. Let me start by saying what a friendly bunch you all seem to be there's a good 50 comments already so that's really nice to see. Jane from Sparkling Pontypool, I believe you're there I've not been but if it's sparkling I might do in the future. Scott Research Centre, I've always found that fascinating I'd love to find out more and Edge Hill. What can I say Edge Hill is close to my heart as we all stomping ground so thank you everyone for taking the time with us on this yes rather gloomy and overcast afternoon. So I've got a few slides that I will share with you I'm going to share my screen in a second. But just to say, it's a bit of a walkthrough really both my personal and professional journey at the International Slave Museum and National Museums Liverpool. So I'm going to take you on a bit of a walkthrough that some of the issues and challenges that myself and my team have had to come tend with. And then I think we're going to have some time for some Q&A and some discussion. I think we're all agreed, myself and Ed and his colleagues that you know when you give your time over for events like this let's walk away let's go away with something practical. So when we do have a conversation, maybe if we all come up and have a very open talk and maybe you'll all go away thinking it was worthwhile so I'll share my screen let's get underway. Right so hopefully you can all see that please tell me if if you can't. So museums in the making of us. So let's start. I was recently reading a very well known publication museum time machine. I'm sure many of you have read it as well I won't go over all the course you can read them yourself here, but I just wanted to spend 30 seconds as I was talking about how it's not a recent discussion about what museums, libraries and archives are or what they can be. The title of this talk was in the footsteps of giants and one of the things I often say to colleagues is that very rarely that we come up with new ideas we always follow or mainly follow on the backs of pioneers before us you may change things and tweak things and obviously society changes but very rarely is there something absolutely new and I think it's important to know where you've come from so that's why I will talk today a lot about a journey for myself and for the museum. So you have a quote there in 1998 about what museums can be it is through museums that societies represent their relationship to history and to that of other cultures and peoples and you can read the rest yourself. And then very recently, some of you will have been involved in this discussion. I come after many, many months of very difficult discussions and debates and I know quite a few people who involved in this. They eventually came up with a new museum definition. So decades and decades later we still haven't actually quite got there and I'm sure this has changed the definition many, many times, and it will again. And I think this is just an example of how everything that we're going to talk about today, all the work that I do and all the work that you do is organic and changing. I don't want to be pessimistic in any shape or form. But if anyone starts a conversation thinks thinking there's an end game and that things are going to be just right. I don't think that exists. So the International Slavery Museum. Some of you I know will have been there. Some of you will have heard me talk about this before. Apologies to those people that have. So one of the things I often say, particularly to new members of the team that joined the museum was be aware of, of your past. Because if you don't, if you're having conversations today with new audiences and new groups and individuals who've never engaged with what you do, that's good. If you cast aside decades of discussions, then you're casting aside input advice wise counsel from individuals that have been on the journey with you. So it's a very fine line. Yes, we want new audiences. Yes, we want new discussions, new groups to engage with. But we have done that many museums and galleries, maybe to a different degree. And, you know, we're here today and we're hopefully going away. Some of you will think I've never thought of that before or there's new contacts and people I can meet. And that's great. But just have a look at how you've got to where you have. And there's very often people who have helped you get to where you are. And that was definitely the case with the International Slavery Museum. So very, very briefly, you know, a little bit of a backdrop about Liverpool. And sometimes people say to me, oh, you know, you're leading the way in Liverpool, your pioneers in the way that you engage with communities. And that's great that some people think that. And there are obviously many things that we've done that I'd like to think have led the way. But looking at all the comments that you made, there's people here from the States, around Europe and most major cities and towns and smaller places within the UK. You've all had your discussions. You've all got your own histories. And I'm not familiar with all the work that you have done. So I don't really see, I see the situation in Liverpool have been quite interesting and encompassing many of the discussions and debates you want to find out more about. But leading the way. No, not necessarily. That's how I wouldn't place it. But one of the things that is important, as a city, now we got to the International Slave Museum in 2007, opened on the 23rd of August, was to look at some of the institutions and individuals that were there before. So this is just a short list. It is much longer than this, but these are just some key moments and institutions. Charles Newton College, 1974, one of the first colleges further education colleges in the UK that had anything to do with black studies. Okay. So there was a library and resources that was attempting to engage people in what black history and the black experience was isn't a new discussion. This is the 1970s that we're talking about. This is in the shackles first report of the Liverpool eight inquiring to race relations. Many of you will know early 80s in Liverpool, something that many of you will have obviously lived or you'll have seen the news at the time, riots, stroke, uprising, and then tensions between the youth, law enforcement, central government that led to several days of disturbances in the city. But it's really important that depending on who you're talking to, there is a big difference between what you class as a riot and an uprising. So the terminology and how you describe it is really important. Transatlantic slavery gallery, the precursor to the International Slavery Museum. So even though we were established in 2007, we built on the backs of the work and discussions that have been within the Merseyside Maritime Museum building. For those of you that know it, the Slavery Museum Despair Gallery is on the third floor. You actually have to walk into another museum. The entrance is in the Maritime Museum. You've got to go and find the ISM. It's not easy. You don't just walk past it. You've got to really go and find it. Liverpool is one of the only. Is it still only? Not sure. Somebody might say it isn't, but I think it might be. The only council that has actually made an official apology for the city's role in the transatlantic slave trade. You can't react to that. What that is worth and how it actually affects people in their day to day lives is highly debatable. But the fact is, there is something hanging up in the town hall. Make of that what you will. But at least there is one to have a discussion and a debate about better than not having anything there. By centenary 2007, some of you here will be former organisations who were involved in that. There may be somebody from the Museum of London, the Sugar and Slavery Docklands. There was institutions in Bristol, abolition 200 organisation with many faith groups and community organisations. I know was existed in Bristol because we worked with them. In 2008, well, the emphasis kind of dropped off and government didn't necessarily support it as we thought there might be. There wasn't necessarily a legacy, but obviously as an international slave museum, we were permanent and we were still about. But I always think there was a missed opportunity there that there wasn't a greater emphasis from central government on funding organisations and projects that kind of had the stimulus from the by centenary. I said 2017 and we're going to finish on what's happening today in Liverpool because there's a major capital transformation project and the next phase of the International Slave Museum. Located on the Albert Dock, one of the most important buildings and iconic building is the Doctor Martin Luther King Junior building as you went to the Albert Dock, and it's not been open to the public for many, many years. So the aim is to make that the front door of the Slavery Museum and join up with the Maritime Museum, so it's a major project. So I mentioned the Charles Routen Centre. Sadly, the building is no longer there. It went and turned into flats many, many years ago, but the International Slave Museum, and this would be of interest to many of you here. We actually hold a large number of the library books that were in the Charles Routen Centre and for many reasons. They weren't taken with anyone when the building finally shut, and it was derelict for many, many years, and I was contacted in 2007 with a number of leading community activists who I know for many, many years. And the contractor said we found lots of boxes with loads of library books. We think they belong to the library and we went there and thankfully they were saved and now they're in the International Slave Museum Reference Library for future generations to be able to access. And this is all part of the capital, the capital transformation project to make them more accessible. I mentioned the Chattels. There was a number of recommendations that were made in that report. Okay. And as you can see in front of you now, this is one of the most important. Liverpool's museums and public institutions when they represent Liverpool's history should give a full and honest account of the involvement of black people in the city. I was interviewing a leading community activist, someone who's very active on the cultural and artistic scene in Liverpool. Only a few days ago, I asked them, I said, well, do you think we've got there? And they said, not quite. We've done a lot, but there's a lot more to do. So, like I said, there is no, there is. Is there an end game in the sense that there will be a museum on Liverpool black history? It doesn't necessarily have to be one place. As long as the other cultural institutions in the museums work together, that includes the archives, the museums and galleries includes the city council includes the public library. Together, you may be able to have that offer, but it's not quite there yet. And it's all about joining things up. Maybe that's the discussion we have at the end. I'm going to show this, I've never actually shown this before. Okay, so this is this is half the press. This is the part of the speech that Mayor Angelo made on the opening of the Transatlantic Slavery Gallery in 1994. Okay, so not many people will have seen this. And I only recently came into contact with it. It's several pages long, but I won't read all of it. I mean, she's a fantastic bit of poetry at the beginning. But one of the things that she goes on to say is how important the gallery was for her. And I think that's a really important point that all the things I'll talk about today, you have to think there's real people involved. We often use terms like community, you know, the public with the very generic terms. Okay, but the end of the day, it's about people. And if you're ever going to make, I think, organizational change, and it's a difficult journey sometimes, you've got to know the people that you're talking about. I'm not just talking about statistics. Okay, we all have statistics on pursuing most of you do, you know how many users you get to your facilities. You probably have a demographic of where they are. So you probably know where there's blockages or those things that you want to improve. That's why you're here today, isn't it? And there's some things that you can take away with you. But I will emphasize from the beginning, that for me, it is about building trust with people. And even though people might not do what you do, and that is definitely the case with the work that we've done at the International Slave Museum. We've always had members, particularly the local black community, and it is incredibly diverse as well, is that it's not one homogenous group. Now, those people, second, third generation from West Africa, and the Caribbean settled in local activists, historians, who, you know, people who are aware of Loosen the Shackles as a report, and that the city needed to address that. And if they're with you on your journey, critical friends or not, the point is they're engaged and interested. So even though you're going to have some comfortable discussions, if people are giving their time to have it with you, then you take that as a positive. These are just a couple of pictures of the actual galleries themselves, but I have to put this in context in two years time as the Capital Transformation Project developed. We will be closing the galleries, we will be revisioning the galleries, and we'll be looking for fresh content, new ways of doing things. It's an incredibly exciting time. But equally, I think the word that we have done in quite a small and limited space, you know, it's the third floor of a much bigger maritime museum. I think we need to not only commend ourselves for trying to make a difference, not saying we always do make a difference, but nobody can ever tell me that me or the team or my colleagues at NML, and all the partners and friends that we've made over the years, particularly with people in the local community, haven't done things for the right reason to try to make a difference. And I think if that's your starting point, yeah, maybe when I first started it was a bit naive to think we were going to change the world. But you know, if you've got a starting point, you know, there's worse things you can think you're going to try to do. And that's how important an influential I do think museums can be. There's an ongoing project. Literally it's just started as you will see from the fly there first day was 24th of November. So what was that was last week. And Dorothy Cuyer was when I mentioned to you about going in and rescuing the Charles Winton Center reference library. I went with Dorothy Cuyer and the local historian called Dr. Ray Costello who's written many books on the book Black History. And three of us went down because Dorothy obviously knew people who were teaching at the Charles Winton Center. The reason Dorothy came with me is because I contacted her because she was someone I had got to know as I started this role in 2006. Or when I was in, you know, I was head of ISM from 26 to, you know, September 2021. And obviously now I'm on secondment for a period. And Dorothy and Ray Costello myself, we went down there. Dorothy was a leading activist and historian incredibly influential. She would be very open and honest in her criticism, but equally she would always be there as well to give wise counsel. Sadly, she passed several years ago. But her family when she did pass were very keen on her personal collection her own archive her own. And the reference library in her house in the house that you live that in Liverpool, a in Granby, Liverpool late. So the museum and members of the archives team the curatorial team we spent several days there with the family. And as a holding it was taken back to the maritime archives or the archive centers it's now called it's actually the maritime slavery archives. It's an active project now to be able to make Dorothy's life accessible to a new generation. So if you actually go on to the website of writing on the wall. And I mentioned the individual who I asked only a few days ago, whether Liverpool had got to where it should have been because of the recommendations from losing the shackles. That individual is co director of writing on the wall, writing on the wall, Madeline Hennigan. So if you go on their website, you can see all about this project. I've talked a bit already about that personal element of everything that I have done and the team have done. I don't think anything emphasizes that more. And Ed mentioned, I am still a trustee. I've been a trustee of 10 years now over 10 years of the Anthony Walker Foundation and marvelous foundations doing really important work on hate crime. And look at their website, please do the walker foundation. It's incredibly active and incredibly proud and honored to be on it to work with the family. And one of the reasons I've got a close relationship with them is because when we opened in 2007, G Walker Anthony's mother had come to the museum and she'd left this message on the chart bulb that we had there. And obviously we couldn't lose that. Do not let my son's death be in vain, she said. And it made us realize, in one sense, the weight of expectation we had on our backs, rightly so, because we were a nationally funded facility that had just opened, saying we wanted to make a difference. So very shortly after that, literally weeks, we went back to the family and asked if we could name our education center the Anthony Walker Educate Education Center and we've had over 5 million visitors. So there's hundreds of thousands of young people that have used that room. And it's still an active relationship. So that's over a decade. So it's, it's a long journey. And that's a lot of trust that has been built. And for the family to still think that the International Slave Museum, National Museums Liverpool, and myself even have something to give. I take as a positive that we've done something. I've done something right. And there's also an image there. It was just one of many I could have shown. When you start doing some of the work that some of you are going to be on your journey starting as well. You will get people who don't want you to do that because they will see in some shape or form that you are challenging. What they see is their comfortable accepted narratives. Okay, you're going to have a whole conference and we're going to have these kinds of discussions. People are talking today about whether someone's woke and right wing commentators or whoever, we all know who they are. And they will say, oh, you know, museums doing this and archives doing that, why the National Trust doing this, what are you doing it for? What are you there for? The point is people will knock you. So again, you've got to be prepared for that. And you've got to be strong in your convictions because in one sense it gets people, you know, when people raise their heads. And sometimes some very controversial and offensive ideas may make it into the public realm. You've got to be prepared to challenge that. And I'm not saying that's easy. I was recently an event at Lancaster University. And it was with the Lancaster Black History Group, community group, marvellous organization doing lots of things in Lancaster heritage trails, research on Lancaster's links to the transatlantic slave trade. And this was just something when I was leaving. It wasn't even something I'd been told about. I thought it was a great idea. It's just one practical element and the many of you here maybe doing this already. But it was just, as you can see there, the global collection on transatlantic slavery. The aim is to get members of the public and local community to make them aware that they can access the university reference library. And I thought, because I hadn't seen that before, and you might tell me there's things been going on after you, which is great. But just a simple thing, which I really like that we've made an effort for, was that they had an undrinkable symbol that you can see on the spines of the book just to make people aware that there was a grouping of books where there was a number of narratives that in some shape or form were connected, whether that be on Black Studies, the Black Experience, politics or transatlantic slavery, and it kind of meshed them together. And I thought that was quite a simple but effective way of doing that. So again, somebody might tell me that that's already in existence somewhere, and great, but it's a very practical measure. And one of the things it leads me on to say is, if you're looking at a starting point to do something, one of the places to start is to try to make something human, so people can engage with it. So for our 10th anniversary, we made a real deliberate effort for people to understand that anything that they see in the museum, anything, whatever it is, the end of the day is about people. People that lived and breathed and had brothers and sisters, some who'd been enslaved, others who'd achieved great things. People who'd been freedom fighters, activists, what have you, but it's about people. So for income blood, stories of abolition, it was literally 10 stories from individuals around the globe, we're not just on West Africa, but in some shape or form, our stories about rebellions and revolt and resistance to being enslaved. So it was in one sense a very simplistic kind of concept, but it tried to make it about people. And sometimes we forget that. This is just an image of the actual capital project that I've talked about the International Slave Museum, the Dr Martin Luther King Jr. building link bridge with the Maritime Museum. There are ongoing discussions. This is not a failure completely by any shape or form. There's new conversations and engagement going on all the time. So even though there is a vast amount of engagement discussions and conversations that we've had during my time, more probably than many, many museums have ever done themselves. It's a real time discussion. You don't just think we've got enough data now we'll carry on. This is continuing for the next couple of years. And then I go back in 2023 and we'll see what happens that next stage. But it's an enormous project. And one of the things that you do regularly, we did regularly then and there's more of that now is to have open and honest dialogue and conversations. And these are just some minutes that we had taken by local artists when there was various discussions and conversations with various kind of stakeholders. The International Slave Museum has a group called the respect group and it's made up of local organizational leaders, individuals who are engaged with supporting the museum on its journey. And it's an advisory, it's an advisory body. I won't actually tell you which one I am on there. You can probably work it out. I've not got my glasses on at the moment, but I am actually on that on that picture somewhere, a bit younger, but I am on that picture. So I'm going to finish off now. I've probably been talking about 20 odd minutes. And maybe this is more just for a discussion for us to have afterwards. Nothing that any one of us are doing here is in isolation. Okay. And I've been reading some of the material from Research Libraries UK. I've got the conference material in front of me here, which is fascinating. I'm going to attend and sign up for it. And he says in here. We emerge you from a period of rapid transformation, working as a partner and pioneering the research process, and as a catalyst for change with scholarship and society. Moving on. Talking about the wider community decision making planning and to make and build libraries that are more inclusive, diverse and equitable. We provide for and monitor the welfare of the community it serves for some big terms in that. Another material as well talks about decolonization. And one of the things is I think people need to hone it down. Okay, to have a great understanding of what they mean when they use that. Because at the moment, there's probably not one person in the glam world that isn't talking about decolonization. But if I was to say to many people, let's say, well, actually, what does that mean to you? You know, it's not a new term. It's been invented, been around for decades and decades and decades and decades. So what does it actually mean to you? And part of that is being aware of all the other discussions that at first you might think what's that got to do with me street signs in Liverpool street signs in Hamburg discussions about changing street named in Glasgow. What's the Colston statue got to do with me. And also what are things like Black Lives Matter movement got to do with me. So one thing I will end in. There's probably not anyone here who doesn't know about the Black Lives Matter kind of organization and the projects and all the discussions and debates. If I was to say to you how many of you now still have a work for an organization that made a statement, and we're very active at the time still do now. Can any of you after we've spoken today can any of you go away and pick it out of the shelves and go well that's what we're doing. Is there any working groups that still exist. This sign here is in the International Slave Museum it's still there and there's a working group at National Museums Liverpool. Okay, how long will that be there. So just to, I'll finish on that, that we need to have an active and open and honest discussion to move forward. Okay, head over to you. Yes, that was tremendous, thoughtful, and hopefully provocative for us to have a debate on some of these issues I certainly have lots of thoughts running through my mind. I will invite everyone to please reflect on what you've heard do add some comments and questions into the Q&A into the chat, and I will pick out themes as they arise. There was a number of things that struck me as you spoke Richard and I loved your phrase that if you have a start there's worse ambition than trying to change the world, which is fantastic. But then reminding us also at the end that it's not so much about the grand ideas it's about the actions and sometimes the small actions are both a good start but also really significant and a way to progress your own practice. And it was struck by what you said about the involvement of the people. So moving from that idea of a community to recognizing all of us as individuals. And it struck me that when you spoke of engaging with individuals within communities that have partnered with you on this journey. You often spoke of people, both as historians but also as activists. And then what that might mean for our practice as professionals within this space. How are those things different being an activist being an historian. In fact, are they different, or do they need to be the same. Is it necessary for us to be activists. That's a really good question. Well, let me let me say this it was a discussion we had internally with with the International Slave Museums team a couple of years ago about who is an activist. And there was a we felt there was a sense many of us who worked within the organization that we were often not classes being activists, but many of us when you look at our background myself included. You know, over the years, and right now was, you know, very political and often we did many things that activists do to different degrees I mean obviously as you move on in your career or change or your family and kids think things change. At the end of the day, we often found that the museum and many of you here the organization, it's a bit of an us and them as like we work with activists and historians what so no one here is a is active in somewhere or is a historian as well. So I wouldn't necessarily put yourself out of the frame here. You know if you think you've got something to offer and you have experience, and there's no reason why when you're having discussions about what activism is that you use the skills and the experience of people that already work within the organization. That's not for everyone. Many of you here that will absolutely not class yourself as an activist, but equally there are many people who will have those skills, and that's a good starting point, because there may be ways of building bridges, because of your own experiences outside of your work that you're able to to utilize. So don't necessarily think it's an us and them. Because sometimes you probably do have to just sit back and realize you know I've done quite a few things myself that will that will help us along this journey. Absolutely. And that's part of this journey I think as well isn't it is thinking actually what is what is defined as the us and then what is typically realized. I mean that that kind of us and them is interesting and I see some comments are starting to come in now which is great and I'll start to have a look at those I was just in terms of that that kind of comments about us and them you have touched on what's commonly called the culture wars. So that narrative within the media that we shouldn't be rewriting history or raising these sorts of issues. Because as I've been assured by a very senior historian here at the University of Bristol actually that is the business of historians to be continually rewriting history. So that's in itself is, is, you know, a kind of missing missing the mark as it were. But I just wondered about your personal experience as you've gone on this journey, what have you encountered have you got any moments that really struck you as either really kind of highlighting some of these aspects of the debate or perhaps how you responded to what it means for you individually and how did you approach that when you were perhaps on the receiving end of some of that. Yeah, that's an interesting one. This is where you can never talk about large groups, just as long as things are not always homogenous you have we all have our own journeys and experiences. For me it helps one that I'm a fairly plain speaking Yorkshire man, and so I've always been quite confident in my views and understand that I made mistakes. So any conversation I ever have, I definitely don't date the moral high ground, but equally I'm always strong in my convictions. I will never enter any project, or go forward in any exhibition with clearly having an understanding of what we are attempting to do as an output, and it might not work. People might not like it, but don't be half hearted, have a, you know, speak to the right people and get as many people on board. So if you're going to make a mistake you make it together. Okay. Over the years we've had many people who have too many to mention who've not necessarily liked the way we have gone about the work we have done in at the museum, shouldn't museums even be engaging in anything that seems political. And those discussions that you know we've moved on from now surely isn't about the neutrality of museums, archives, libraries and galleries, what really is that, you don't hear it as much. You know in the 90s in Liverpool I heard people saying well we never really got involved in the transatlantic slave trade you know it was more Bristol and London. Seriously people have that conversation with me, you wouldn't really have that now in the city of Liverpool. And what you do have, like I said the culture was in, in particular when people, you know, raise kind of their heads because they do feel as if you're challenging something. And I think that means you're right isn't it, if they can't have an open and honest discussion with you, without shouting and accusing you of something, then something's, something's worrying them. You know when you talk about people all your woke or your liberals it's such a simplistic argument to have. And you're right Ed what you say about that's the, that's, you know the role of historians things are changing you're always looking to rewrite and revision and just to briefly go back to one of the images I only skirted over which is the Colston statue. And as you will know being in Bristol, but the big discussion about pulling down history, you know it rears in history. And actually for those people you know historians are, I'm not a trained historian I'm an archaeologist by trade. The point is, the statue never became, kind of you're not rewriting or erasing history I'm not advocating you necessarily throw something in the river, or what have you. The point is it became more interesting, because one of the things people started doing is actually talking about well you know how was, when was it made, you know who made it, was it made of and I remember seeing a fascinating presentation by some of the team and share the conservation team. I think that apologies if I've got that wrong who it was, but it was someone who had done work conservation work on the actual physical statue and inside there was some material that they found stuffed inside. If I remember rightly it was the equivalent of a some kind of it was a newspaper or equivalent of a gossip magazine. What was the tip bits it was Carl, that was a 19th century magazine or journal again somebody might be, you know, questioning that, but I thought that was fascinating that you're actually talking about what was in it as well. So you're not erasing history, it's living and breathing. Yeah, I completely agree if it's the most debate I think there's been in the open in this city for some time, and actually some of what came before attempted to engage with these issues but always ended up in these kind of warrants or cul-de-sacs where debate was not really pushed into the open. So actually as you get these challenges, if people are actually seeking you know honesty and debate around these things and that is absolutely the way the way that it needs to progress. So there's an interesting question here which I think builds on this kind of context that we're exploring about the situation that these debates are framed within which is always within a community it's always as you've reminded us about people. Our commenter here is asking about the collaborations that you've established both with local communities but also with organizations in other cities and other countries. And they're wondering how do you maintain those relationships and how do you advocate for connections between collections and communities, which are part of that global perspective. So a lot of that depends on where you are. And that's why you know Liverpool does not lead the way in the show performed but it has its own kind of organisms there that are networks. But you get to know what your local communities are and all the different types of communities in the city. I assume and the slavery museum it's on the Liverpool Waterfront the historic waterfront is in the city centre. Traditionally, some of the diverse communities in the city don't always or didn't always go into the city centre that will be changing now of course but it's something that you still hear people say they didn't necessarily feel welcome in the city centre. And Liverpool's not necessarily a big place so you have to be aware of that what that means is don't always expect people to come to you. It's simple, get out there, find out where people live and work and breathe. So that's also about, and we know it's difficult because there's been a lot of funding cuts that sometimes have prevented outreach work or the community engagement work. It's where my background was I was the community consultation coordinator at National Museums Liverpool before I became head of ISM. I don't need to be told about what you have to do to build trust and engage with people. What you do is you take people out. You take senior people out so people get to know who you're even talking about, you know, so many of you here if you actually think to yourself, and you're probably great people, fantastic company, really knowledgeable. How many people know you. So rather than you just being whether it be an email or something on social media, have you personally got an engaged and made relationships with people. Of course you can. But you need to take the time to find out, particularly if you're new to a new job in a new place, find a bit about where you're going. Try to reach out to some organizations. One example I can give you we had an exhibition on the Congo, many, many years ago in ISM called Brutal Exposure. It's about human rights photography in the Congo and it was through the lens of the work of a missionary called Alice Sealy Harris. And we had this kind of juxtaposition this narrative juxtapose against one another. One was saying, look at these images. It was one of the first time someone had taken images of these atrocities being committed in the Congo, and they had lantern shows across the UK. And there's the Congo Reform Association. Equally as images of her as a missionary stood at the top of a group of black children. So it's kind of like, okay, you need to dissect that. One of the first things we did was, you know, do we have a Congolese community in Liverpool? And there was, there'd been a Congolese in community for Liverpool for 15 years. I had never engaged with them. And I met the chairperson for coffee. That person now has a long term relationship with National Museums Liverpool and he's involved in the capital project. You know, take a bit of time to find out who's there and reach out and have a coffee. It's not a bad starting point. Well, specifically then picking up another question that's here, wondering if you found anything particularly helpful for working with people who might object to the work that you're trying to do in this space. Is a coffee a good approach there as well? Does it take something different? It might take a coffee and cake, isn't it, sometimes depends on the level here. You can only go so far. Somebody said to me that museums are always open for everyone and you should never, there shouldn't be anything, anyone you have any engagement with. I always drew the line quite simply is whether somebody was being overly offensive. And I didn't personally want to engage. So anyone that showed any signs of being disrespectful to do someone's ethnicity or religion, then personally I would pass them over to the website and the work and an invitation for them to come and see what we do, but I wouldn't necessarily always give them my time, you know, we have to make decisions sometimes. And if sometimes people are just being offensive deliberately for it, then no, I don't necessarily think we have to engage with them the same way. But if there was a debate or a discussion about subject matter, you would always want to get, if you can, a multitude of views. But, you know, would we have invited the British National Party on the stage to debate some of the things. No, personally, I wouldn't have wanted Nick versus on the stage with me on my team. That was my, because you have, because one of the things that people didn't think about for many years, and you've got an opportunity to think about now, is that emotional labor, and what this type of work will do for those individuals from global communities, or however you may personally define yourself. Those people, and it's not just those people with lived experiences that understand the difficulty here, but particularly those of you that work with staff, or are yourselves from backgrounds where this is incredibly personal. And for me, that was always a starting point, because my family's Guyanese. So anything I ever did in the museum that related to the history of British Guiana or Demirama, but there's a personal element to that. You can, you live it and breathe it, the legacies of your family history. So there does need to be open and honest discussions with members of your team, if they do come from backgrounds or have lived experiences when engaging, even with discussion about what is decolonization. So yeah, you have to be really mindful of that. I was going to save this for the end actually, but just picking up on that theme. Sometimes the areas that we're traversing here can be incredibly difficult, it can be because of your lived experience or even just what you may encounter as you go about this. And you've reminded that of course we're engaging with people, but of course we are all people in this as well, we are individuals. I wondered what advice you may have for us as individuals embarking on this work or progressing this work. How do we navigate those challenges? What advice do you have for us as individuals? There is no doubt it is going to be a difficult journey for many of you here. And that's why I've always had maybe that naive starting point of having a name, something that you know why you're doing it. So everything I have ever done personally or professionally and academically is because I kind of think I want to use the skills and the resources that I have available to make a difference to people's lives. And in one sense when I say that open, I mean, you know, there's a hundred other people and you may be thinking of God, you know, fancy saying that, but that's just how I, that's just me. You know, that's how when I get up every day and I go to work, what I'm doing is because I want to make a difference. It's through the conduit of museums and galleries. But when I was an archaeologist as well, everything for me, even in that spectrum of work was about engagement and increasing diversity within archaeology, which is incredibly still an incredibly undiverse kind of sector. So that's my starting point. So we have, we do have different starting points and we have different hilltops. Okay, so, you know, you might not be thinking I want to change the world on a daily basis. But if you think, for instance, the resources and archives, for instance, that you work with on a daily basis are inaccessible to many people. And due to the fact that they are inaccessible for whatever reason, then they're not having a chance to tell their own stories, are they, the resources you've actually got. I think this is, this is even if you've been selfish in it as a historian or archivist, it's like, you know, are the holdings that you get able to tell their own story. And if you don't get multiple people from multiple backgrounds being able to access them and engage with the same in museums with objects, then you're missing, you're missing a trick there. It's not about what your your aims and ambitions are. But yes, you do have to be aware that there will be difficult discussions, and you will be taking many of you out of your comfort zone. But personally, if I ever had a conversation with a member of staff or a colleague that was beginning a journey. The terminology wasn't quite sure what terminology to use. You know, whether they use someone who was a person of color, global majority, or BAME, it's all these big discussions. I've always said it's up to the individual how they personally define how is it. One of the founders of the BAME staff group at National Museums Loop, but it's now the global majority group, it's changed over time the members wanted to call it something different. Ask your colleagues, how do they feel? How would they like to be kind of discussed or, you know, talked about. And equally though, you also have to think don't just go to members of staff as the go to people if it is around an issue that we're talking about diversity or inclusion, because as organizations there are responsibilities. So you will have documents, you will have policies and strategies. So you do have people who are the, you know, the director of people or the director of HR. And so they, you know, an edge, you know, you know, your people with responsibility who should know about some of the strategies and the resources that are on offer. You don't always have to go to staff with lived experiences. But equally, there may be staff who are very welcoming for you to do that. And I've always been very open. If you've got a question, come and ask me and I'll see if I can help. And it's that theme of trust, isn't it? Building trust, building respect and entering into these areas with good faith. Picking up something you just touched on there about representation within our collections, what voices are present, what stories might be marginalized or absent. There's a question here about the value that's attached to community led collecting and whether that the same value is attached to community archives or kind of individual led collections compared to sort of academic collections of the past. And I'll ask you here is asking how do we change this and is there room for community historians to curate within these spaces. And the answer to that is yes. And if you don't, you're missing an opportunity there. So, and it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because I don't think anybody says when you say community stone, people will stills automatically many people not see that as being a proper historian. It's, you know, and, and that's something you need to check maybe reflect yourself what that word conjures up community exhibition. And what does that mean? Is it is an add-on? Is it an extra? Is it not quite as professional as what your exhibition team are developing? All I know is that I have been in rooms with very influential people who've talked about the difference between high art and other kinds of art. Now, I don't think they would say that openly now, like they did then, because we're in a sector that shouldn't have people in influential positions that think of things as high art and low art or other. So the point is, you need to get, you know, get rid of the misnomer that community means that it isn't professional. OK, because it can be. And again, for me, I've always said, so rather than calls within a community exhibition, it's an exhibition. It's just that the people that you're working with might not be working within our sector all the time, you know, so a community historian is a historian. So it is a fine line. It is a fine line. And you do need to be wary of how you use certain terms. But multiple voices, voices outside of our sector, i.e. people who work in it every day, of course, that will enrich everything you're doing. And I think one of the things I would say about the Salvation Museum, the Capital Transformation Project now, there is an attempt to kind of make these kind of distinct, you know, to not distinguish between the professional and the community as much as there has been in the past, because everyone is bringing something to the table. There's many things that the curators or the archivists have no knowledge about. Equally, there are many people who you work with who may not have certain technical skills, you know, you come together and the output could be great. So it's just about respecting, I think, people who might not necessarily work full time for whatever reason within our field has not been as professional. I think that's it's not a good way of thinking about it. We just have an eye on the clock and there is plenty still that we could come to and so many directions that we could take this debate. You did say at the start, Richard, that you would very much like to pose a question to our audience and they're very chatty lots. I'm hoping that we may get some great answers. I think it was around what people are taking away. Would you like to frame that as a kind of parting question to everyone here today? Yes, absolutely. And just one technical question for me. Will the web chat be saved? Because there's some people who put some really interesting links. So thank you all the people who've been having a discussion about articles and links that you're aware of. I will definitely look at all those afterwards if they can be saved. That would be great. And I'm also happy for my details to be shared with anyone if they want to send me something in e-mail me at the university. Simple question. After this hour and a bit that we spent together, is there anything that you can do in the near future, the next few days, an action for yourself that can start the journey that you're going to go on? Is there anyone you can think about? I want to meet them for a cup of coffee. Or is there anyone in your own organization that you might be able to have a discussion with? So what's the takeaway from this? What are you going to do as an individual? Is there any action you're going to personally take? And is there any discussion or dialogue you can start within your organization? So that was just throwing that out there. No pressure.