 Good morning and welcome to Moments with Melinda. I am your host, Melinda Moulton, and today I am honored to have, as my guests, Shirley Jefferson. Hi, Shirley. Hi. How are you doing, Melinda? I'm doing great. And how did you fare okay with the floods and everything? Yes. Just a little water in my basement, and here in St. Louis, we have a bowl of water effective, but other than that, we're okay. Okay. That's really good to hear, Shirley. Well, let me tell my viewers a little bit about you. Shirley Jefferson is the Vice President for Community Engagement and Government Affairs for the Vermont Law and Graduate School. Shirley was a longtime professor and administrator and graduated from Vermont Law School in 1986. Is that right, Shirley? That's correct. Well, let's start at the beginning. I've done a lot of research on you, and you have an extraordinary life and career. Let's start at the beginning. Can you tell us a bit about your life growing up in Alabama and your family and the rise to your illustrious career? Okay. I was born and raised in Salem, Alabama. I was born into segregation. I was the third child of nine children. My mother died when I was about 15 years old. At an early age, I learned what my color meant to me because I asked my father one day if I could have some ice cream, and he said, no. And I said, why? He said, because we couldn't go in. You know, at that time, black people could not go and to rest around some places, you could go through the back door, but a lot of those places, you couldn't go at all. And so I learned at an early age what black meant, the old black book, the old black hat. Everything that was bad was black. Everything that was good was white. So I learned what it felt like to be judged on your color. I can remember John Lewis and coming to Salem, he and Jose Williams, when I was about, I think about maybe 12 or maybe younger, coming to Salem and telling us kids that saying we should fight for our freedom because we wanted to be included in today's equality. We wanted our schools to have test tubes in our chemistry labs. We wanted our schools to have heat water books. Didn't have books that George Wallace gave us both. And so we really just wanted to have the same. And so they came down to try to encourage George Wallace and the rest of the folks in Salem to try to not so much integrate. That's what people get all confused. It was that we could have equal things. And so I enjoyed going out to the freedom, to the margins, seeing Dr. King, you know, at those math medium scene marching, I remember Bloody Sunday. You all, and students read about it, I saw it. I didn't participate in it, but I could smell the tear gas, the horses, the water hoses, the cow prongs and all of that. I was able to march to Salem until Montgomery when we were able to march. It took a while. My cousin and I, but my father had been threatened by his boss. Daddy was their big white man, not participating and not having the children participating and they would lose their job. And so I learned at an early age that I wanted to fight injustice, that I didn't want other people to have to go through what we had gone through, especially what I had gone through. And so I learned then that I wanted to be a lawyer so I could change these laws and things. And so I integrated my high school in 1971. Brown v. Boer came through, you know, 1953-54. And so as I integrated my high school was first class graduate, I moved to Washington D.C. and worked at McDonald's as a French fry girl. And I worked my way up to a manager, a woman manager in those days. And I wasn't many assistant managers, I should say. I wasn't a manager. And so that gave me confidence. I went from Baltimore to Washington D.C. I said, oh, you want to be a lawyer, you better start going to school. So let me backtrack. You know, my education, because we didn't have books. I didn't know my mother vacation papers when I graduated from high school. And so when I started going to college, I started learning all these things. A whole new world opened up for me. I realized that I really loved learning. And so I graduated in the top of my class. And I decided that I want to go to law school. And so I applied to, well, Vermont Law School asked me if I wanted to apply. At the same time, it was Franklin Pierce, a university at Lancer. I accepted Vermont Law School because it gave me a scholarship. The Thomas Delmore scholarship. I don't know if you got a chance to meet Ed Delmore. Who was that? Our open house. That was her husband. And they'll say, would you probably not going to be to have anymore because of what's happening? The scholarship was for black folks and for single women with children. And so, you know, we can't have those scholarships like that now. But anyway, I ended up coming to Vermont Law School. I was the second black woman to be admitted, the third black person to go here. I graduated, went to Washington, D.C., worked for a politician. Will it mean a roll-on? I know some people might remember Mary and Barry, all of that era. And I became the general counsel for United Black Armed, which is just like United Way, but it's the black armed that has these 60-some agencies under it. And so I used to incorporate nonprofit organizations, having them to attain their 501c3. Then I ended up coming back here in 99. I started off in the alumni office and then admissions council. And then I moved over to Student Affairs about a year later. Then I started teaching. My first course was really nonprofit organization. I talked there for about three or four years, and then I moved to race and law, and then I taught civil rights off of. And so that's it in a nutshell, just trying to move no more things long. But to show that I am a direct victim of discrimination. And if it wasn't for this great man, Gail Kajovic, who had just lost school, I would not have made it through this. And he made sure that I had everything that I needed. And he gave me an opportunity to this law school. That's why I love it. He gave me an opportunity when no one else would. And that's why I have worked so hard to make sure that we continue to do that and that we continue to meet unmet needs here in the month. And so I'm thankful to have this job. I moved over to my new job last June. I'm beginning to really understand it and turn a corner. I met you, which was very... Yes, you did, Shirley. And we met and it was like love at first sight. And I want to ask you a little bit about the fact that you have been called the heart and soul of Vermont Law School by President Smola. Now that's a fabulous accolade to be the heart and soul. Can you talk us a little bit about that? I think it's my love because you just, if you see me and you hear me talk about this law school, I just love it so. And I just worked so hard to make sure that other people love it. You know, students, I'm student driven. I love students. I love the community. I love people. And if you come here on this campus, if I see you, I'm going to stay high. I'm going to stop. I'm going to talk to you. And the soul of it is that I have given my life to this place. I absolutely have, remember. Been here now, 20th, 19th, never, never. I've given my heart and my soul. You have. So, you know, the thing about you, Shirley, and if anybody Googles, you know, Shirley Jefferson, read her bio, go to her Wikipedia page. It's really in depth and amazing. You have an illustrious bio. Now, you've said, you've said, and I saw this in one of the write-ups, in quotes that it is time to confront some of the world's most complex challenges. So connecting our students, faculty members, and initiatives with community leaders, elected officials, and on the ground activists is essential to overcoming the many issues in our society today. Can you talk to us about this initiative that you have been devoted to now for so many years? Well, for one thing, just like you said, veterans, you know, we have our veterans going to have, have veterans here, here in Vermont is very essential to us making sure that we're helping everybody, you know, also immigration, food, you know, we have food and ag, you know, there's a food desert and a lot of things like that. Energy, you know, even animal law. We have so many things here in Vermont. A lot of people don't realize that Vermont is such a rich as people think it is, that we have a whole lot of things that we can do in our community. You know, just getting together, I brought back the annual Thanksgiving dinner here in town, with all of the people fed 400 people, you know, just simple things like that. But just helping, I walk up and down the street, I talk to business people. I ask them, hey, how are you going? Can I help you fill out papers? I'm not licensed to practice here. I'm licensed to practice these things. But just getting out here, trying to connect our school, connect ourselves with people. We have a program here, which Nicole Caloran runs. It's called V-Sail. It works with small business owners and helping them to understand what they're right for to get, get lawyers and all of that. There was quite a few agencies there who are grassroots agencies that came to our open house. But my thing is to get the people to know here in this state, great state, all the things we're doing, you know, our students, we bring a lot of diversity here. A lot of these government agencies and all the like, and if there are a lot of people coming there from here or our students working here, you know, making changes and trying to do the best that we could. But there are a lot of things that I'm trying to connect. I'm having an open house up here in Upper Valley in October, because I want people to know what we're doing. Well, I love the one, I love the one that you had in Burlington. Now, now, now, Shirley, you are a native of Selma, Alabama. As you said, you marched to Montgomery as a child alongside Martin Luther King and Congressman John Lewis, who has now passed. You are a frequent public speaker on race relations, and you pushed for the removal of the controversial mural depicting slavery from the Vermont Law School Student Center. Talk to us about that experience and a little bit about your activism. Well, when I first came back here in 99, students told me about that mural. I believe it might have been put up since 95. And so they would bring me over to the Chase Center because that's where it was. And as I'm walking over there, they would be telling me about it. So when I saw the mural, I say mural people are not pronouncing it correct, but you know, the southern accent and different things I call it picture. When I saw it, yeah, hey, I'm real. When I saw it, I was just listening to what they had to say. And they was like, look at us. We look like we look crazy. They got big lips. We got big arms. They're making fun of us. Oh, we don't like this blah, blah, blah. So I was like, oh, and then when I became the Associate Dean for Student Affairs, and students would take me up there and I would say to them, look, don't worry about that. You didn't come here to fight for that. Because when I took this job, this campus had been split on race. There had been something dealing with Black students, white students had something to do with the newspaper, and a faculty member saying things about a Black student. So the school had been suited and split. My theme was that I wanted to try to pull us all together. I held hearings. We had diversity hearings. And so we compromised one time. Was to put, but it depicted what it was to say I'm cursed. And he was trying to say he was trying to depict the Underground Railroad here in Vermont. And so we put signage to say what each panel was, because I think it's about four or five pounds. And so that went for a little bit. But I had a couple of students, two students, Jameson and April, who was just not going to give up. And but I'd say they listened to me. I said, hey, you didn't come here to fight for that. We're going to split the campus. We're going to have a big mess on here. Why don't you get your education? Then you can come back out here and you can fight. Let's do that. And so whatever George Floyd was murdered, I was like, oh my god. Oh, that picture got to go now. You know what I think Belinda was that? I was ready to fight. I was ready for whatever happened on this campus. If it tore the park, if it tore the town apart, I didn't give a damn. I had a rally right there on South Royce. And I don't know if you found that awesome. It was about 800 to a thousand people around. I have a community of people that came from all around. It was in the Valley News. I decided because I know how to protest. I know how to march. I know how to do all of that. I'm picking my undergrad. And so I was like, I felt like I felt when I was fighting back in the cell. I was willing to die. If this campus, whatever happens, it's going to happen. I was ready. And so we wanted to remove it. And that's when we got in for this suit with this visual artist act and all of that. And then the artist, he said, he wanted people to look at it and suffer. I said, why do you want people to suffer? We have enough suffering already. And when the two students that I told you about, Jameson in April, and I won't say their last names because they got a lot of slag, he made fun of them. He made pictures of them. He depicted them in a negative way. He made fun of them. And it was like he had no intention of really, really understanding how people feel than what it does. He said he want people to suffer. I hope one day that, well, you've seen pictures of it, but I don't want anybody to suffer in this country anymore. I don't. Well, is the mural still there? Yes, but it's covered up. Oh, it's covered up. It's covered up in a certain circuit. So we're waiting. I think either way that it goes, I think it's going to the Supreme Court. All right. Well, that will be a really interesting case. I think our president, you saw Rodney Simola. I did. He's extraordinary. So we're going to talk a little bit about some of the things that he talked about. But now, Shirley, you were recognized by the National Black Pre-Law Conference for Legal Education Access with their Legal Education Access and Diversity Champion Award. And in 2022, the Vermont Law School Alumni Association named the Dean Shirley Jefferson Distinguished Service Award after you. That's pretty outstanding. Wouldn't you say? Yeah. Well, bravo to you. Bravo. I wanted to mention that to my viewers and to call you and to let you know that I am that's just extraordinary. Now, listen, I'm going to move on to something else. I'm going to move a little further into our country. Do you feel that our country is moving in the right direction as it relates to equality and racial diversity? We've taken a couple of steps back, but for them, I believe they're going to get there. I believe we had to take those steps backwards to move forward. Because again, when you're talking about Brown v. Board, we didn't want to emigrate. White people didn't want it. We didn't want that. We wanted equality. We just want to be equal. That's the same thing today. But that was never happened because of the court, the women, the people. It's going to take people like you and I and everybody else. We're going to have to make the change. We can't be waiting on courts. We can't be waiting on the senators. We can't, it's people. I believe in the power of people. It's us. But we have to take those steps backwards to move forward because we never really, really address what we want to live next door to each other. We only decided that we want to go to the bathroom next to each other. Churches and neighborhoods are still segregated. We have to decide the courts can't do it. So how did you feel when the Supreme Court recently shot down affirmative action? How did that, how did you feel? Because you received your scholarship and the opportunities as did the Obamas and so many, so many folks in this country who were, who benefited from affirmative action. And just like that, it was, so where, where do you stand on that? And I think President Schmollett, I think he talked about that at the, he did talk about it at the opening. Students can still write about their, whatever they, about them. You know, tell us your story, you know, about a lot of things. There's still, there are still ways to still derive that diversity if you want to. There are still ways. You probably can't do some of the things, but you have to remember, you weren't just looking at grades when you were admitting students. You looked at the whole holistic approach. You looked at the whole picture. You looked at the latter for recommendation. You looked when they went to school. You looked to see what courses they took. You, you looked at their community work. You looked at all of those things. You didn't just look at grades. And we weren't, people were not just, I know we weren't, we're just letting people in because they black, white, green or purple because we wanted them to be on our count. That's unethical. No, no, no, no. It was something, it was giving them an opportunity to say, we were the gatekeepers. We'll give you an opportunity that was given to me and it's still today. If you give people opportunities and you have resources in place, you have to have resources in place for them. People can make it. But you just can't let people in that don't have any resources for them. You just bring them in so they can fail. But we still have to work. We'll work at it. We'll get it. I think it'll pull us all together because maybe we'll become complacent and complacent and thinking that everything is okay after President Obama got in. No. And so we must continue to fight. And we need love. What the world needs now is more love, love, sweet love. I believe in love. And I think, and I think more women in positions of power too, because we are nurturers. So talk it. Dog frightened me. It wasn't so much about the affirmative action. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about your position regarding the end of reproductive access to abortion protected by the federal government for the last 50 years and the fact that Vermont passed the Reproductive Liberty Amendment in our Constitution. But of course the government could if they wanted to dig into that. How did you feel about that? Scary. Because I can remember. I can remember girls in my class who didn't want babies, who had clothes hangers. I hate to be so dishes on here, but I won't go. No, you go. This is no. You say it. Yep. What's that as abortion? Who died and who bled to death at school? Because I'm telling you, okay, affirmative action, another thing, but this is your body. And if you don't want a baby right now, you think it's psychological. You feel it. Some of the girls that say it, I'd rather die than have a baby. And so that's dangerous if that was frightening to me. So, Shirley, why is it that places of education, I mean, certainly during the 60s and the 60s revolution, we had colleges all rise up and fight for these things. Why is it that places of education are not taking political stands against the backward movement being perpetrated against our society? I mean, we have politicians striking down the right to read books, gender, health, care, women's reproductive rights, racial equality, climate change when most Americans are strong supporters. Why aren't colleges willing to step out on the limb and fight for these things? I think that people are afraid. They are afraid of what might happen to them, even if it's along their jobs or in their community, how people will perceive them. People, we're so caught up on how people are going to perceive us. People are going to perceive us. So, we are afraid. We say something in public and we do something different in our own private places. And I think a lot of this, too, is due to ignorance. They don't understand the history. That's why I'm a racist law player. We can talk about history. They don't understand the history of these things. Most of those affirmative action cases, when they first started out, they were trying to remedy what had happened in the past. Well, then you saw that it was affecting people who had nothing to do with that, but they might have benefited from it. And so, but then you have to look at both sides and balance it and say, is that fair? Would it be fair? I'm just saying, Melinda, if I took it out on you, you know, just to say, oh, but you're white and you blah, blah, blah. And I should have this job. I should have your job. I should be the one doing this. That's you. You know, but you have to take it in consideration. We all got to be considerate of each other. Being afraid. And I think it's being ignorant. And we haven't told the history. That's why I don't want the history. Yeah, exactly. So well said, Shirley. So let's segue for a moment into criminal justice reform. What is your position on how this country deals with criminal justice? And what's your position on restorative justice? Because there's the new the new school at the law school that's focused primarily on restorative justice. Talk to us a little bit about that. I think the criminal justice system, and the way that it was first set up, you know, that was first to catch runaway slaves and all of the rent locally and for indentured service, white people who came over from England, who was criminals. I mean, it's always been set up for that. But I think that what was happening was that again, the system was used to incarcerate people of color. And you really to use, you know, Michelle that exam, do Jim Prok be used as the same slave labor. They were doing stuff free. Used to answer the phone. I remember when I first moved to the Republic, used to have the prisoners after the phone when you call a certain government agency. We had to reform it. And so I think looking at it differently, you know, we don't have to incarcerate everybody for every little thing that they do. I think if we try to help them to understand what they had done wrong and how they could move forward, I think we'll be in a better position. And also I think our center here, our justice, our program, the justice, you know, you get both dirty confused, the center for justice before, that's where the students can come and get their degrees from here. And that mostly I think doing, like you said, trying to restore people. They're being harmed. They're trying to restore them back. They're looking at the criminal justice system. But the national center on restorative justice, which have the partnerships with the Department of Justice and some of these students, they mostly looking at policies and laws, trying to change some of those. But believe me, I can tell you, I don't think that our criminal justice is just the way it will change. Doing, I mean, doing our lifetime. It's like a, I don't want to say a game, but it's like, it's ingrained. Well, maybe you and I can work on that together. So tell you, have you ever thought about running for public office, running for office here in Vermont? Because, you know, I think you'd be extraordinary. Have you ever thought about it? A politician. And so I don't know, people keep asking me to run for our, so I haven't thought of it. I haven't, you know, but I haven't really thought about it. I think, like I said, I think I've been so busy here at the law school, but I think once I really, really go to part-time, I hope I ain't too old about it, I might think about it. I wouldn't want to try to still do what I'm doing now and run for public office because I would want to give it my 100. I'm that kind of person. I think you should think about it. I think I'd get down the road when you're ready for it. I think you'd be extraordinary and I would love to be your campaign manager. Now, we're coming close to the end of our show, Shirley, which I mean, I could talk to you for days. I mean, I could talk to you for days, but I want to end my show by asking you what your words of wisdom would be for our young people today on how to live a life of purpose and compassion as you have lived your life, Shirley. First thing I will say to them is service. You have to help. You have to help everyone. You have to help your neighbors. You have to help yourself, too. We have to help each other. We have to love each other. We have to believe in each other. We have to care about life and not so much about material things. And don't give up. You have to fight. I want to tell you these young people, you have to fight. You've got to fight. You've got to fight. If you think that you can live in this world and not fight you, you're wrong. You've got to fight for things. And so how do they fight? Give you some examples of how are you, for the young people who are walking the show or even the older people? We're going to start with laws of... You contact your governor. You contact your senator. You contact your neighbors. You contact your select board. You get out of here on the street. You talk to people. You go to door to door, telling them what you think, what you see. Go to businesses. Never give up. Go to churches. Go everywhere. It's almost like Jesus and his disciples. Hallelujah. That's right, when they spread the word. Hallelujah. That's what you've got to do. You've got to get out here and spread your word. And you can know people. People got to know you for yourself. Be real. That's what I'm going to say to them. Be real. Be true to yourself. So, Shirley, do you have great hope for the future of our democracy, our social fabric, our planet? And if so, can you share that with us? I think everyone watching this show could use some of your powerful wisdom and hope. What's your hope for the future? Our hope for the country is that we all come together and that we can live together in peace and that we accept each other for who we are and that we love each other, that we be kind and that we have compassion and that we know that this is a great country. We can't forget about our country, Melinda. This is a great country. Love this country. Love this country. I am an American. I know nothing about Africa. That's where my folks or my folks came from. Some of my folks who are the first folks from both here in this country. But I love this country. And so, we first have to say we love this country. And another thing, Melinda, we have to start telling the history that's correct. When we start talking about things, we start with this country with slavery. It didn't start in slavery. It started in Africa. It started in Africa. And we don't ever say that it started in Africa. Though they were the ones who sold us into slavery. Sure, some ships went over in solar. That's the beginning. You, we started in the middle. We got to start from the beginning. You got to tell the story, right? So, this is where we said those things and all those people. They're the ones that sold us. That's how we got over here, just another place. And then you can tell the story. But tell it from the beginning. From the beginning, surely. I was a lot of people going to get mad with me for telling it, but I don't care. I doubt it. Because this is the way I feel. And like you said, I'm no longer. You are not. I'm not. I'm not. I want to start it for you. You're a truly authentic human being. And I absolutely love you. And I adore you. And I want to thank you so much for taking this time to speak with me and my viewers. And surely we're going to get together soon. I'd love to come down in October to the, to the, to the open house. I just love my time spending with you. So, and to my viewers, thank you so much for tuning in and meeting my guest, Shirley Jefferson. And to all of you out there, I want you to be safe. And I hope that you're all doing okay during this flooding. And we'll get through this Vermont strong, Vermont strong. And, and Shirley, I'll see you soon. And thank you so much for being on my show. Thank you for having me on.