 This is Bill Doyle on Vermont Issues and our special guest is sculptor Sophie Bedman-Kirsten. Welcome to the program. Thank you, Bill. You just become recently, within the last year, the editor of a book, which explained the book and why people should read it. Well, I am very lucky to be privy to the inside collection of articles that were written for the world by our most wonderful and illustrious Senator William T. Doyle. And the amount of information that Bill, that you have consolidated on Vermont history is just fabulous. And so when I saw all of the stacks and piles of information that were actually available to us as students of life in Vermont, it was kind of, it answered itself. And so all that information was begging to be put in accessible format. Well, needless to say that that's a very fine comment. But since I had you as a student, one of the defining moments of teaching was a debate that you had with another person. And thank you for representing yourself very well. I would explain to yourself why you are such a good debater. Well, I have a sort of unique history that I was raised within a community that, partially half raised in a community that was very outspoken about humanitarian issues. And I wasn't necessarily a chatterbox per se. And so I was able to hear how people discussed important issues over the years and how to make a point. I think clearly and simply to be understood by hearts and minds, but also not by the economic stimuli. And so I think a lot of the arguments that I find myself in are based on human interest, which is something that, as a human, I feel like we as humans maybe have not given ourselves enough credit. And we are very capable, and I fight for that, I guess. Well, you obviously do fight because when I heard you debate, the only time was that you were on radio. And my impression is that you were so good you virtually demolished the person you debated. But leave it that way. But we want to pay tribute to the fact that you are a sculptor. And tell me some of the things that you're most proud about in sculpting in your career. Well, within my career I was very, very honored to hold a place in the granite industry for some years. That was a big deal for me personally. Recently, though, some friends of mine, Jerry Williams and his son, Sean, and a gentleman, Chris, who also has been working in that field for a while now, got the commission to do the Lady of Agriculture for the State House. And so I got to talk with them the other day when they were having the people's program on the State House steps and Bill McKibbin was there. And they had just gone in to get the specs, basically, to do the Lady of Agriculture in Mahogany. And they're going to put eyeballs on her this time. Are you going to do that? Well, I'll take you to the studio. We can go check it out. But the last version was classically made. And the theory is that you can't see the eyeballs from the ground, so why would you carve them? And so Jerry and his crew are going to carve the eyeballs. I'm quite happy about that. No irises, but, you know. Your career is in sculpting, and what does sculpting have to do with your career? What impact does sculpting have on your career? Well, sculpting, I think, for me, is a great honor because every piece that we do is virtually a monument. And that part of it is very sacred to me personally to get to honor the people who have been on earth and survived, to some extent, unharmed or unscathed and made it through in a reasonably loved fashion. And so that was really it. As a human, it was a great honor to be part of that industry and to be able to honor the people who have come before me or after me, but who have been loved and created and loved on this planet. Speaking of honor, can you indicate some of those you have honored? How do you mean? People that I've carved for? Well, in the industry, you don't really know. So I've done some local pieces, but... Name a few local pieces. Well, I have a piece in Glover for a friend of mine who used to be the cook at Bread and Puppet. And that was a great honor. And I have a couple of pieces around the community for my friends and their pets or, you know, their family members. Well, use the word Bread and Puppet. Most of the people who are listening to this program do not know Bread and Puppet. Why don't you say a little bit about Bread and Puppet? Sure. Well, again, Bread and Puppet is a humanitarian endeavor. And I think this is part of the reason that I've always felt a little bit like an odd duck because I was raised in a very humane fashion in a very economically oriented and driven society. And so it was very clear to me from a very young age that there were human needs that were not being met all over the world. And that there were people on the planet who knew that and who were able to discuss it and participate within or around the issue and to come up with a solution or at least publicity for it so that it could be publicly discussed. And Bread and Puppet was a great venue for that. The director was, is someone who suffered from humanitarian mistreatment and was, you know, part, he was a victim of war, war in society. And I think when a person experiences deep suffering at a young age especially, they have conviction toward humanity that is very strong and holds a place of great importance for them individually. And I think that is where the success of Bread and Puppet really comes from is from his need to stretch out his hand to people and say, we do care. Humans do care about humans. The military industrial complex does not care about humans, but humans care about humans. And so the theater became a real venue to connect with people about very serious issues that otherwise weren't particularly discussable. You alluded to your parents and what impact did your parents have on you? Well, similar, similar impact. My parents were people, are people who are very serious about their interests. And so, you know, a sort of a classic example would be once you have a show you would have an after party, but we really never had after parties. I think I only went to one my whole life and the work was really the joy. And so if you had an idea with, you know, my parents theater, a show was developed around that idea and it was presented in the community or in the communities that created the show. It was a discussion that was created by the community that needed the discussion. And so it was a really huge tool for community building and also for getting issues into the open that might not be, like I was saying, discussable in public forum because of whatever, it was dangerous or it was, you know, politically challenging or, you know, economically not, you know, like my hemp shoelace company. You think, you know, big industry is going to get after that one? Not likely. But humans would. So how did your parents influence the person you actually are? Well, I would have to say that in that it was the seriousness of it all. You know, the seriousness of life that things are serious. If you sign up for the military, you could end up dead. That's real. And a lot of people don't realize that they have voice, maybe. And if they do, they don't know how to express it. And in our family, I would say the personal emotion wasn't as important as the public's ability and also outcome. And so, you know, I've always, I was raised humbly, you know, growing food, eating what we grew, working with the family, making sure that I was, you know, on cue. And so I would have to say that they definitely put work ethic behind their concept of what was important as well. So I think they've affected me in that way. I'm a little too serious and a little bit too much of a workaholic. But I love it. I mean, what are you going to do, you know? What did Goddard College have an impact on your family or impact upon you? Well, my parents met at Goddard. And so we always had contact with Goddard, with people who were also graduates or teachers, professors there, and also the theater space. And sometimes the students would come and work with my parents' theater. And again, Bread and Puppet performs there still, you know? So it's a sort of a big community of the sort of liberal thought, if you will, but I think it's a humanitarian concept. It's good food, healthy food, and sincere politics and governance that is respectful and, you know, actually for a positive outcome. And it relies on the individual. And so maybe that's what you're trying to get at, you know, is that it is. It's the reliance on the individual to see the outcome that you want in your world. And that was always a main focus for my family, but also in general in my community. I think that was something that was imparted to me as a kid, was if I wanted it done, I had to do it, you know? You can call your legislator, but there's not necessarily a guarantee unless you really make the call and have the conversation, you know? And then things happen, but it's up to the individual. I think that was mainly what it was. One thing that made things happen was the former president, Tim Pitkin, and maybe just a few words about the influence that president had on the college. Well, I never knew Tim Pitkin. I think you did. I did. Yeah. But you can say it had a lot to do with how it turned out. Well, I think in that era, it was 1955, there were a lot of people who came to Vermont with the intention of starting communities that were based on health. Health of the mind, health of the spirit, and of the body. And the spirit, you know, we live in America, so it's, you know, you get to create your own spiritual world in this one, and that's a wonderful thing. But I think it Goddard, it was, like you're saying, it was individually focused. So the students get to decide what they want to study, how they're going to study it, and with whom they're going to study. And that was a liberation, I think, in that era that was so genius, because I think in this era, we've taken away a lot of the confidence in our students that they were born with a good brain, that they were born with a decent body, and that they were born with a standard good soul. And so it's hard for me sometimes to look at Goddard and feel like we've been able to continue that line of thought, you know. I mean, it's become, it's a facet of modern economy, you know. It has produced a lot of self-motivated people. But I think that institutions in general are the battlegrounds, basically, of this discussion of what is important and how do we make it important. And I think you have particularly focused on what is important, which we would say is the student, right? And how do we make that important? By giving them carte blanche to give it hell, right? To study it until midnight, to push the questions to the edge, to ask the questions and to get the answers. And that was something Goddard definitely gave as an opportunity to their students. And I know that you worked there sometimes, but also had good friends there, right? I mean, for years, right? And what, I mean, as far as your education and the education that was coming out of Goddard, was there correlation or were they very different? When I took from Goddard with Bittgen and Goddard's concentration on conversational skills, you're good at conversational skills. Did any of that rub off on you? I don't know. I can say it has. Oh, you're saying it has, definitely. You went to the college. Is conversation part of Goddard? Well, actually, I never went to Goddard. I didn't go there as a student, but many of the people in the community I grew up in had graduated from Goddard. So maybe it did rub off on me a bit, yeah. Now, let's talk about sculpting and talk about some of the things that you're proud of sculpting. Well, I think in sculpture, I would have to say getting to use natural materials in a format where I'm the boss and they come out the way I want them is stunning to me. Where aren't you at the boss? Many materials where you're not the boss. There are some. You can name a few. Food? No, but I think that maybe that's part of it too, right? I mean, I was in control of the material for many, many years, and maybe that gave me a little bit of a sense of power, which I hadn't really realized, but it might be the case. When you mention materials, talk about materials you enjoy working with the most. Well, I really like working with clay. I haven't done it very much, and I love pencil, but I'm better at a pen. I can draw with a ballpoint pen all day long, and my father's always just horrified. And I do love a ballpoint pen. And then what other material? Well, obviously marble. Marble is just the love of stone carvers, I would have to say, because it is an emotional conversation you're having with a natural element that's not able to speak but can totally converse. It's amazing. You mentioned the difference between granite and marble. You've done both. Marble has more of a natural flow, maybe? I don't know quite how to describe it. It's a softer stone, and so it responds more delicately, maybe, to the carver's interest. So you can push marble really far. You can make it translucent. You can make it very delicate. You can make it very, you know, sort of blunt and, you know, solid. But you can do the same with granite, but there's a little bit of finesse that is different. Unless you're Giuliano Ciacanelli Sr., of course, who can, you know, he's amazing. He can make a piece of granite look as soft as skin, you know. Let's talk some of the benefits of your education. The benefits of my education? Well, I have to say a lot of my education has been hanging out with wonderful adults and people like you. That opportunity to me has been just exceptional to learn about people who thrive on learning and on community and on the actual drive of students and how they will be effective in the future because of your consideration and because of your confidence in them. And so I've had a fair number of fabulous people in my life who I've been very grateful to but moved by, really moved by. And so I sort of got myself ejected from this particular community when I was maybe a sophomore in high school and signed up for boarding school in southern Vermont. And the boarding school didn't have any prior knowledge of me and so they didn't have any special rules for me. There was no, I just was, I was a normal person there and that was hugely liberating to be expected to meet the same grade as everyone else. And I thrived in that opportunity and I really can't state it enough how much confidence you and probably your co-professors for many years how much confidence you've given students by having faith in them. Not necessarily in their work or in their, you know, God only knows what they're going to do in the future but in them as beings, as capable beings. And I have to say that that has been profound for my ability to learn and I thank you for that. Let's talk about others that you're grateful for. Well, we only have one minute left but I would say gardening, fresh food and good friends. Those are things I'm so grateful for. Oh, and hot water. Thank you. What about you? This is Bill Doyle and Vermont. Thank you. Bill, you're so sweet. Sophie, for a great interview. One thing of gratitude from you. I want to know, what are you most grateful for? My parents and the education that I've had. There's two examples that I can give you. Those are wonderful. Now the most important thing is that I'd love to have you interview me. This is Bill Doyle thanking Sophie for a great interview. Thank you, Bill.