 Good morning, Tracy. Good morning, Dano. Hey, Hart. Good morning. David, do you know if we're going to have a ride today? I don't actually, I can check in with them. Okay. Can you guys see the address policy? Yes. Okay. Great. Loving it. So Tracy, I ping, right. I haven't heard back yet. I mean, I want to respect everybody's time. We can go ahead and get started. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's fine. David, would you mind updating the attendance? Of who shows up as we go through. Sure. I can do that. All right. Appreciate that. All right. It's just counting people. I think we have the majority of the folks that we're going to get today. I did see. The number of people that have been asking for this call, I don't know, had sent me a regrets at least for the first half an hour. We'll see if he can make the second half an hour. So we are missing, I think a few people from the list, but given, given time, let's go ahead and get started. So as. You are all aware. Everybody on this call has been here before. This call is open to everyone. participate in that is the antitrust policy notice that you should be seeing on the screen and hopefully has been displayed long enough for you to completely grok that the second thing is our Hyperledger Code of Conduct, which is linked in the agenda. So as we start, we've got three separate announcements that are here. The first one is, I think, David, you added this one, maybe? Yeah, yeah. Just as it says, we want to thank everybody, not just everybody on the call, but everybody in the community for the contributions they made in 2021. So we put together kind of a small just thank you gift, a Shrag Pack from the store. So we've emailed people who we saw had made contributions in the year. And so look for your email in that. If you don't see that in your email, check your spam box because it might have gone there. But there's a code to use in the store to redeem a free thank you gift. So please feel free to use that. If you don't, if you do check your spam box and don't see it, feel free to reach out to us and we can check with the store vendor just to make sure that the email was sent. But again, just we want to thank everybody for contributing. And we thought it could be a nice way to incentivize people to contribute for the end of the year. If people want the Shrag Pack, but haven't contributed yet, you can contribute and then we'll send you the gift. We'll do another, we'll check for contributions at the end of the year and send out another round of thank yous to the people who contributed. So that's it. All right. Thanks, David. The second one here is, as always, there's the Dev Weekly Developer Newsletter that goes out each Friday. And so if you have anything that you'd like to include in that, please do so at the link that's given there. There's a wiki page that you can update for upcoming newsletters. The third item here, I did see David's email go out to the different mailing list about canceling meetings the last two weeks of the year. So this is just a notice that we plan to cancel the December 23rd and the December 30th TSC meetings due to the end of year holidays. Are there other announcements that anybody has that they'd like to add at this time? All right. I will take silence as I know. We do have three different quarterly reports that have come in Hyperledger Grid, Hyperledger Transact and Hyperledger Cello. When I checked these, I did see that we've got some people who haven't yet reviewed them. So please do take the time to go through and review them. At the same time, I didn't see any specific questions unless they've just shown up. So I will assume that we have no questions at this point. But if there are any questions that people do have that they'd like to bring up, please do so now. So we do have quite a few missing reports. We've got four that are missing the upcoming reports that we have. We do have, for the rest of the year, four additional reports that we expect to come in. So as they come in, please do take the time to review those, ensure that you don't have any questions about what's happening in any of those projects as they come in. I know, Dana, I saw, well, I see you have your hand up. So I will let you, I will let you speak now. So first, is there a quilt on Dormant State so they don't do reports? Yeah, I don't think we ever specified that necessarily when we went through the Project Life Cycle, but I would agree with you, Dana. Yeah, if no one's taking care of it, no one's going to be there to put a report in. That's right. So that'll probably need to be updated on a 2022 calendar. Also, an important thing to note about the dates. These dates are the Monday, not the Thursday. That's because they are supposed to be due on Monday. The week of the TSE meeting. So then the project reports, it does show that they're the date of the TSE meeting, but at the top it says something like, you know, these are due the Monday of that week. So I have been specifically calling out the Mondays. So for like this week, we had Explorer and Firefly that were due. So I called out the Mondays here because I do want to make sure that everybody has the opportunity to review these reports before they come to the TSE meeting. So yes, you are correct there. The other thing that I thought about when I was looking at this is wondering if at some point we want to think about what happens when we're not receiving a report within a certain timeframe. Is that a point at which we look to put a project into a dormant state or not? That's obviously not a discussion we should have now, but it is something that's on my mind and something that, you know, maybe we should think through. Yes, Dana. I kind of agree, and I think the project should be one of the auto triggers for involuntary dormancy. So maybe we should discuss it next week so people can think about what it means to force a project into dormancy when it's not responding to things for project reports. Yeah. Okay, we'll add that to the discussion items for next week. All right, any other questions slash comments on the reports? All right. So Bobby, I'm going to stop showing my screen and I'm going to give you about 15 minutes just so we have enough time to get to the other two items to do your presentation. Sounds great. Thank you. Let me share my screen. Figure out how to stop. There you go. Okay, so is everybody seeing my screen? Yep, we can see it. Awesome. So we were discussing the bridging the silos and trying to get more communication flowing between the working groups and the special interest groups at the TSC calls. And one of the ways that we decided that this could be accomplished was to have different groups come do a short presentation at our calls to let you know what's happening in the community that might go under the radar of the Technical Steering Committee. So today we are going, Nico and I are going to present a community project. So it's the Giving Chain project, which I'm sure everybody has heard about at least once, which is a social impact project and we're building it on Firefly. I'm Bobby Mascara and Nico and we're going to be discussing this today for you. So what is the Giving Chain? It's actually a social impact blockchain based project to track donations through a supply chain. So you have a mutable record of where the donation went and you can see exactly where it is along the way. It started through the Hyperledger communities and it actually touched at least six of them. So the first one was the Social Impact Special Interest Group. I was a member of that group and they had a speaker from the Microsoft Social Impact Hackathon in DC in 17 and they gave us an outline on how to build a social impact project and they also gave us a lot of information on how blockchain can do that in the social impact group. Then I run the Princeton Hyperledger Meetup Group and we have a lot of members, over 300 in that group alone and I run the other Princeton group with 2,000 members. We got together in summer of 2019 and we decided to actually try to do those steps we picked up in the Social Impact Special Interest Group to build a blockchain project for our summer meetups instead of meeting and discussing and having guest speakers and panels. We decided to just kind of do a lab or like a little hackathon ourselves. The Learning Materials Working Group which I am one of the co-chairs of decided to record this so if you go to the Learning Materials Working Group page under resources there's a tab that says Meetup and if you ever wanted to do a social impact project this steps are there for you to follow. And Sawtooth got involved in our first project which you'll see I'm going to go very quickly through the steps that we got there. In our first project we used the Sawtooth example so we were dealing with that community for a while as well. After our first proof of concept ended in the end of the summer of 2019 the project kind of went away. Also COVID came but after that the Linux Foundation had the mentorship program and I put up the giving chain as a submission which got accepted and we had a mentor assigned to us and two others that did not make the project join us anyway and did the same amount of work as the paid mentee so it was a fabulous experience. The trade finance group also got involved because my friend Andre from the trade finance group wanted to see how they could help with the shipping because once this project gears up one of the issues we ran into in the second project was how to get items from the United States over to India in just one example but as you'll see the giving chain can do a lot of different examples so shipping and transporting are going to be something we have to deal with down the line. And finally the Firefly people came in in the second time we did the project with an unbelievable solution for us which Niko will demonstrate at the end of this presentation. So very quickly the business model the first project we went from donors to volunteers to recipients in the second project two things changed one we have a model now where the NGO when a crisis occurs can query the system for help so that will alert donors to start a project and the second part now that when we did the project in 2021 there were three instances of the giving chain happening at the same time so we needed a project manager for each project so that's something that has to come along from the extern like whoever wants to run a project they need someone a point of contact to do some of the registration pieces so NGOs and project managers are new for us so the workflow real quick the donors gather food we gather farm fresh food we collected it and then we you know delivered it and we used the sawtooth model we forked it we took out the fish and we put in a giving bag we had this is the technical model you'll see those little tags above all the transactions and those were actually barcodes that we printed and would three-part barcode we would tear them off and scan them in to get the transfer registered into the system very not very efficient but it worked for our proof of concept which we delivered all this wonderful food and helped our community at the end of the summer and this is basically the interface we used again we had no consensus model once we turn the computer off the instance of the blockchain went away but it did prove our proof of concept that you can track something on a supply chain blockchain for charity and then the mentorship program got involved in 2021 and we did have a new life infused into the project so we decided to do again a three-part project at the same time so we're trying to scale up and we're doing some shipping over to india and some projects over in india as well because that's where the mentees were from so we added ukutahan india the flood victims that was my mentee hardix project because he lives in an area where that is affected by floods and he wanted to be able to set up that charity supply chain for people to help out when they wanted to also madhu was one of the volunteer mentees and she wanted to help the women in india there's a humanitarian crisis over there for them they're not receiving hygiene projects products and she wanted to fix that so the model validation was just basically the same we collected goods we transported them and we delivered them but the only difference is in madhu's model the NGO requests the donation or kind of files a humanitarian crisis that needs some help so that was basically the new business model and the new technical model so instead of using sawtooth to track it that example isn't really up and running right now they have a more complex example and for the scope of the mentorship program we didn't have much time to build so we needed a quicker solution something that would get us up and running and again you know they're number one in my book the fire five people came through we'd request something and they would literally write it as we asked them to and nico we'll get into that in a minute so again i just wanted to thank everybody at hyperledger for this journey with this project as you see it touched a lot of different communities and it has some wonderful impact that it could do and i encourage the people at firefly and anyone on this call if you ever need an example to use for explaining what blockchain does this is a really good one please use it and i will turn it over now to nico thanks bobby one moment um just before we get to to that i have a question for bobby um the question that i have is what sort of recommendations do you have for how you went about getting the different groups involved right um going back to that one slide where you have basically everybody that got involved in this across all the different projects and the working groups and mistakes and all of that right i think was it was really telling right that that it went through really a life cycle of of getting people involved so so what kind of recommendations do you have for the community and how best to to work across all of these different groups and and get the involvement that you ended up getting um i think that the point for me where we actually change like we were trying to do this you know within the social impact group within the learning materials group you know in the media group um and i think when the mentorship project came that changed everything because we had um three new eyes looking at the project that was when um i got out of my comfort zone um and actually went to the meetings for sawtooth and uh firefly because i needed to get this done and or we needed to get this done and we needed to see if these solutions would work and that was the i guess that the what to what you're speaking of where we like jumped over the line there is when we actually like made the call like can we come to your meeting and talk about this because we have a you know a project we're working on and they were like yes everybody sawtooth was like yes yes come so it's actually just reaching out i mean everybody is welcoming thanks Bobby that cues up our uh later topic really well um because sorry to have interrupted jumped in there um please feel free no worries all right thanks for that introduction bobby and just for the the background there yeah it was it was really great uh collaborating with you and with the whole team building the giving chain demo here and i'm really excited to be able to show it off so um before i demo i i don't get to take credit for anything that i'm about to show in terms of the the actual demo that we're about to see this is this is all the mentees code um they couldn't be here today so i i picked up their code i tweaked a couple things to get it to work with the newest version of firefly and and i'm just running it and i would love to walk you through what that looks like today so i'm going to go ahead and share my screen and uh you should be seeing my browser and should say uh blockchain powering generosity okay so i have just started the the giving chain app and also running on my machine is a firefly network of four members so probably by now most of you've seen the firefly cli how you can stand up a firefly stack locally and it runs all the different microservices that you need to run firefly and it's really easy to get started so the giving chain demo uses four members and i'll get into just a second what those members are um and so so i've just i've started everything up and i haven't done anything yet this is kind of the home page we can scroll down it will tell you a little bit about each of the the projects that they have going on right now um and then there's one because this is like a fresh setup there's one manual step that i need to do so i'm going to go create a token pool so there's an admin interface for that and i'm just going to hit this button here and so what this is doing behind the scenes is i actually have the firefly explorer tab open here and we're going to be hopping back and forth between uh seeing what's happening inside this app and seeing what's happening in firefly and so so to me one of the really exciting things about this demo and this project is it it illustrates how quick and easy it is to build a really powerful application on top of firefly and uh it it makes me excited because it's a realization of the vision of like hey if we created this rest api that's really easy for developers to use they can unlock the power blockchain really quickly so so that's to me the most exciting thing so let's go take a peek at the firefly ui this has probably changed since the last time you've seen it there's been a lot of updates to the ui um we can we can reload this here so we've got four members and uh there's a new tokens interface here so we'll pop into there and we see that when i clicked this button here to create a token pool that created a new pool in the ui called donations so there's nothing in here yet we haven't minted any tokens but we'll we'll start to see some things appear here as we're interacting with the giving chain app so out of the box when you run firefly locally with the firefly it creates a an erc 1155 token connector and this is it's sort of a um it's a reference implementation of a token connector we don't necessarily recommend that you take this particular token connector to production because um tokens are the type of thing that just about every use case is probably going to have different rules that they need in place around how their tokens are going to work how their smart contract works and so we want to leave it open-ended and pluggable so uh in this case uh the giving chain right now is just using the the the reference implementation of erc 1155 and they're going to be minting and transferring non-fungible tokens so um talked about you know earlier how each in sort of the first iteration of the giving chain uh each donation was tracked by qr code that has linked to some data on chain in this iteration we're using nfts so each donation is going to be referenced by uh or represented by an nft on the chain and it will have some data that points to what it is in the real world and we'll we'll take a look at that now so so basically the the way it'll work is we'll mint an erc 1155 nft that will get transferred to the various members of the network to represent the the donation moving through the system so hopefully that makes sense uh let's jump in and actually do some donations now so i'm going to go back to the homepage so uh we've got four tabs across the top here donor driver ngo and recipient so in the real world in non-demo mode uh these would probably be four different firefly systems running on four different servers with four different access models but for the sake of the demo they're all on one ui so i can just click through and show you everything but just wanted to throw that out there that normally uh in a in a real production firefly network these would be isolated so uh we're going to sort of take on the role of the donor here and we're going to create a donation so i'm going to come here and i'm going to add donation i'm going to fill out this form as a kaleido person because that's that's who i am today i'm going to say i'm going to donate some apples and i'm going to choose a file so here uh you know i'm i'm taking a picture of my donation that i'm about to give i happened to have a picture of a box of apples on my computer already and i'm going to hit submit um so this this form will take a little bit unfortunately we don't have a like a little status spinner or anything but it is actually uploading that jpeg it is minting an nft and this form will disappear and it will show me the the nft here shortly when it's done i think there are maybe a couple other calls that happen in the background here while this is going which takes a little bit but we should start to see if we hop back over to the firefly explorer here we can see now there's a now there's a token in this token pool and it has been transferred we can see this this transfer event this is this is the mint event so it's basically just transferred to whatever address created it which is the donor's address okay so here we are so there's there's a donation there's my little box of apples i'm going to go ahead and do one more yeah this one looks really similar but we shouldn't really compare you know because apples and oranges here so no no no comparisons between all right we'll give that a second we'll go reload this and okay there's our so now we can see we've got two nfts they're currently both owned by the same address which we can see here and this is the the address of my donor on chain all right i'm just gonna poke this real quick okay there we go so there's there's my my apples my oranges so now at this point we need to transfer this to the driver and so so right now that the the driver organization the transport company has no they have no nfts they they're not in possession of anything and just to just to illustrate the other views same with the ngo and the recipient so basically we're just gonna we're gonna transfer and we're going to go from one to the other so we'll hit transfer on the apples we'll give these to the driver so they disappeared from the donor's view and just to just to show that we're going to hop back over to the firefly ui and we'll see now we have a transfer event and we can see it went from the donor address to a new address here and this is the this is the driver's address so if we look at the giving chain ui now in the driver view we see hey there's this my box of apples here again the ngo has nothing and then the the donor just has the oranges so let's let's hand that out say we've delivered the apples to the ngo transfer that there shows up on the ngo's view and then finally we'll transfer it to the recipient when somebody picks up those apples and there the recipient hasn't received the apples there's no more transfer button because we're done with the chain now uh we'll hop back over to the firefly ui we'll take a look and then there we can see all the transfers there that occurred so uh that's that's really it there's a few other little features that bobby described and you know the ngo can request a donation and things like that um i don't have time to to demo every little nook and cranny of it but uh really excited to to have a kind of a use case as bobby said we were actually building all of this functionality in parallel with the giving chain project and so so we had a lot of great conversations of like hey this is what we want to do with nfts and we were like hey that's that's great uh this is how we're thinking about building an api that will allow you to do that and uh so great great collaboration between the firefly team and the giving chain mentorship program and it was just a fantastic experience all around so thank you bobby for for inviting me thank you for letting me do this demo and it was great to work with you and your team really appreciate it no thank you niko seriously so if anybody has any questions for us please go ahead hi i don't have a actually question but it's more about thanks for the demo and i personally involved in in in similar project that we developed a platform on top of hyperlager fabric to to to basically run charity foundation organization that they can come up and basically ask or collect donations for for different purposes for the social goods and i think that will be nice if you can collaborate and see how we can bring this things together because i think that there is a lot of things in common and you know i really i really glad to see that it's not only us who trying to do that things and the you guys from firefly also looking into that so yeah look forward to working with you i sent you my email in the chat yeah i will i will follow up on that thank you thank you very much uh niko i have one question so with the firefly are we using any a dlt like sartooth for fabric or is a plain uh firefly only uh sorry was the question was firefly using fabric here or or does it have support for fabric i mean uh is a firefly have a fabric here in this given ten demo i mean yeah great question so in this particular demo uh the blockchain being used was ethereum uh firefly does have support for fabric um the current tokens connector the reference implementation of the token connector that exists today uh depends on ethereum tokens it's the urc 1155 um we've talked about the possibility of implementing tokens on fabric it's a little bit more uncharted territory but um and there's also the possibility of using fabric as the primary transactional blockchain for uh just you know firefly broadcasts and definitions and and all that stuff and possibly using an ethereum chain just for tokens so there's a couple different possibilities there if you want to get fabric involved but a lot of those need some some more exploration still so niko i'll just add to that i i'm not i'm not sure if you're aware but there is a fabric token sdk lab that exists that might be useful in just thinking about what's what's there for the future with fabric yeah definitely um we we did stumble across that some time ago and uh thought we should look at this and figure out if if and how we can use it in firefly cool yeah i know um angelo yeah date go ahead yeah i was gonna say there there has been some confusion about the token sdk so fabric supports you know fungible tokens and non fungible tokens through chain code since version 1.0 so there is kind of that support that's already there the token sdk brings additional privacy considerations like zero knowledge proofs uh for token transfers so you don't have to use the token sdk to do tokens in fabric great thanks day yeah thanks i'm gonna move us forward uh bobby niko thank you so much for um providing the the presentation and the demo i think uh definitely really good insight and as i had mentioned uh when you answered that question bobby i think really good um set up for the the discussion that we are going to have now around um attending project meetings so uh hart i think uh i think i'm gonna hand it over to you i can definitely bring up the email if you want me to share that or how you'd like me to proceed but uh i think you're the you're the inspiration for this sure i added an issue late last night um and i put it in the the tsc uh i linked to it in the meeting actually okay great um sorry for my my usual uh late submission um so i think this is this is something that is pretty simple and i think we've probably already explained it a lot and i think most people here have seen it but the basic idea is we want to ask tsc members to attend one uh either project or working group or sig meeting a month for which they're unaffiliated and not a contributor and then just write it down in some wiki and this is mostly just so we can keep track of the overall coverage of who's going to what meetings and try to make sure some of the the less common meetings are attended uh the the time commitment should be pretty small and as david boswell suggested we could also uh let tsc members that wanted to report back during tsc meetings about interesting things they found uh have some time at the tsc meeting but this wouldn't be a requirement um and i think this is pretty simple and i think the only concrete uh the only concrete action of the proposal is to just create a wiki page with all this information on it and i can do that at some point if this is approved so i guess with that i would just like to open it up to thoughts questions what do people think about this hey hard oh sorry uh do i need to raise my hand don't go ahead okay we'll raise our hands after this but uh okay go ahead yeah some of my phone started to see if others have done that um quick question hard um would there be uh like strict uh criteria on what's counted as not an affiliated uh like i'm a you know co-contributor to far fly obviously uh but i'm also uh liking pretty active discussions with the cactus folks uh would that be counted as uh affiliated so you know attending cactus meetings wouldn't wouldn't count uh into my uh monthly ration it's up to you um i don't think we want to strictly enforce uh what affiliated or auto-affiliated means or even define it rigorously but the idea was you'd want to sort of rotate your meetings um so the intent was that you would not attend the same meeting every month i guess maybe i need to add that to the proposal because i think yeah i'm about to include it in here yeah i think yeah it'd be uh useful to clarify that to rotate every month absolutely that makes sense thanks heart no thank you for the suggestion from lush yeah so i agree with uh hard's proposal and additionally i think we should record uh the what the observation particular uh person have in the s i g or any kind of working meeting because uh in the if i see my personal experience with joining some health some a working group s i g meetings so some even uh some of the s i g chairs are running the meetings outside the agenda like for example take example of healthcare group in the health group healthcare group healthcare s i g sometimes even as end of the meeting is outside the healthcare group itself someone talking about the crimp to concierge someone talking about the non-healthcare initiative in the blockchain so if we have some person to join such kind of meeting and even aids observations in the wiki where heart is trading so and some kind of monthly or quarterly review of those uh details good for the i believe okay Peter just wanted to echo the plus on the idea and report that i have been to one of the basic meetings and it was great so i recommend to everyone that they also try this practice of being a tsc member who just goes around in the meetings and checks things out okay so peter you were plus wanting the proposal um not necessarily the report back uh piece is that did i get that right uh well i plus some both okay all right come let's you still have your hand up i don't know if that's uh came back yeah yeah i'm loading no okay don't worry any other thoughts on the the proposal anything that you'd like anybody would like to add this to be clear the reporting is voluntary no one's required to report back to the tsc on this but it was just a suggestion that if if there was something it could be brought up yeah i think i think definitely uh to me i see two sorts of things that are um possibly interesting right in attending the meeting as a tsc member right one is couldn't making connections right and being able to form that that larger network of you know hey this other project over here is doing something interesting or this working group is doing something that maybe this project or this lab or or whatever might be able to um lend a hand with right uh and then uh secondly if there's things that you know we could improve from a tsc perspective right of you know our processes and the way that we're doing things um to me those seem to be the the the keys uh the the sorts of things that we will want to think about um you know reporting back for um making the connection with the other group yeah that's that's exactly right tracy okay any other comments that speak back on this as it's existing right now obviously i know most of us haven't had a an opportunity to read through uh the proposal is hard to written it here um but hopefully you did have a chance to read through the email chain so if there's any other additions or thoughts people want to add now is your time dave uh yeah i think it's a great idea i think we could have maybe a standing topic on the tsc for a while and to see how this is going and maybe that's where we ask people to provide their uh comebacks in terms of did you learn anything interesting that could be applied to other projects and things like that yeah great idea anyone else is there anybody who doesn't think this is a good idea because i've heard a lot of yes this sounds like a great idea so anybody who thinks oh my gosh adding one more meeting to my monthly calendar is going to be so painful that i'm not going to do it sure so um i guess adding additional meeting to our calendar is is fine but i'm also thinking through another possibility through these meetings and and that could be the much needed bridging with project teams and the tsc as well i mean if we are attending those calls which we let's say do not associate ideally with or maybe through our day to day activities maybe that's a place where we get started and engaging in terms of giving them updates from the tsc calls or probably asking them for feedbacks on certain things that we work here let's say making some um hard calls assuming certain things about different projects i see a lot of value in in doing that yeah i think making it to a communication street right learning what they're doing as well as helping them understand what's been happening in the tsc that might be impacting them or that they should be aware of is obviously a good thing nathan i was just wanting to provide a bit of a testimonial i tried to attend a meeting i didn't normally attend this last week and found a bunch of stale information on the hyperledger calendar that was able to get fixed so as we do this it also helps us see a project like a new contributor would see it um but with the eye towards um helping with our best practices and doing some simple things that make the overall hyperledger experience a lot better so i'm hoping that you know as i poke around and try to attend some meetings that there's some things i can do to help definitely thanks nathan bobby um i think that um this is a great idea and i'm well for it i i have a wiki page started like as an example on how to keep track of this stuff which i'll send over to heart in a second but i think it's really important not just to um have us go to this the working groups and special interest groups and projects but we need a way to communicate what happens in the tsc meetings to them on a regular basis um i know like when the working groups decided not to do the or the tsc decided the working groups didn't have to do the quarterly reports there was never anything sent to the working groups to tell them that if you weren't on the tsc call you didn't know that so i think that that um needs to be a two-way you know maybe there's something that talking points the tsc can you know we need to make sure the community knows this to make sure that when we as tsc invade their calls so to speak that we have correct information to give them that they need yeah definitely great park hey bobby yeah i'll comment on that uh that uh in the ancient times uh the hyper alleged tsc calls were very packed and we would sometimes have 50 to 100 people on the calls um and the reason was my speculation was that it was because we typically talked about things that more people would be interested in like project architecture uh we sort of had more technical discussions rather than sort of discussing discussing more like administrative issues and i think this is a you know this is probably an orthogonal issue uh but i definitely agree with you that it's worth considering sort of what can we do to to get more people interested in you know project-wide stuff like the the tsc meetings uh you know the maintainers list sort of all this stuff so thanks for bringing this up no worries great ideas all right so i think that the plan then um is i'd like to give people the opportunity to review the proposal um by themselves with the opportunity to read and provide comments back on this particular issue um in github and we will bring this up for a vote next week unless i see something major come up that would distract us from wanting to have a vote next week and go back to more of discussion around it so please take the opportunity uh now that hartz created the proposal to add any additional sorts of clarifications of how you'd like to see this work so for example hart added this note right about the suggestion of rotating through different group meetings but there's other sorts of things like that that you think would make this an even stronger proposal because i based on what i'm hearing so far feels like everybody is very much in favor of doing this you know feel free to add to the proposal we'll bring this up for a vote next week um bobby you still have your hand up is that you have another comment or no i'll remove it okay no worries uh arun yes so i was trying to go go beyond and probably make use of this time that we are spending in different projects to one more level so i know we have a couple of task force going on right now um one of them is it to start on next monday i'm sorry i missed the announcement section of the tsc call otherwise i would have asked for everyone to attend that call next monday um but yeah thinking through these engagements it would be nice if we can utilize the same time in relaying some of these discussions that we are having in task force or probably start creating a project specific maintainers mailing list that we had spoken about a few weeks ago specifically related to giving out information passing down the information whatever happens in the tsc for offline communications um i think yeah that's all i wanted to say sorry okay no worries um so great for the announcement for the task force the security task force is kicking off next week um related to the maintainers list we do have a maintainers mailing list that we can be using uh to make you know certain sorts of uh announcements or reach out to the maintainers from a mailing list perspective um so that has already been created and then it's just a question of what is it that we would like to to communicate part oh i just wanted to say thanks everyone for your consideration and please feel free to comment and you know criticize what we have in the github issues all right thanks everyone i think the last thing that we have here is uh the services for graduated projects like incubation project slash lab uh draft that uh david and rye have created for us um so david i don't know if you want to to cover this or you want rye to cover this uh well yeah i can say something to start off and then rye can add you know any of his thoughts but before i do that just thank you to heart for bringing up the suggestion about uh what we were just talking about and thank you to everybody else in advance for your time and for your interest in this i think is nathan and bobby already shared you know when we go out and make more of those connections probably you know all sorts of good things will probably come out of that so thanks in advance for that i'm excited to hear people are interested um and then as a segue i mean i think what this document is is similar it's it's kind of bringing lens of how do we provide a little bit more support to the people in the community who are doing things so you know it's been an observation that you know i've had where it's not entirely always clear to somebody running a project or a lab what sort of resources are available so the goal of this document currently right now it's just a draft document on a google doc but ultimately it would live somewhere much more public and accessible you know we'd find a place for it on the wiki but the goal would be to provide clarity to those people running a project or a lab you know what are the things that they have access to what are the things you know that they could you know leverage if they want so just documenting things that maybe people already know but i suspect that maybe not everybody knows everything on the list so you know this breaks things down into tiers so we've got graduated project incubated projects and labs some of the things apply to all of them some of the things apply to some of them and again it's just a draft so we could talk about what goes where or what should you know really apply at what level and i realize we have limited amount of time here so i didn't necessarily think today would be the day to go into all the details you know but just to maybe i point out what the document is give you some time to look at it and then maybe if we want to spend more time on it next week we can get into a little bit more of the details just to share that the document is there it's open for comment and feedback please take a look if you have suggestions comments edits you know certainly we can do you know make those edits you know add make some changes but the again just the goal would be how do we give people more clarity about what they can tap into because again there may be some things that would be useful for you that you didn't even know about right so that's that's the goal i don't know right do you have anything to add uh no not really that's that that's pretty much yet and this uh i think a lot of the the confusion or the wording previously was uh influenced by when hyperledgeries to pay for a lot more stuff so that's uh why it might have might seem a little bit fine grained but uh if you have any questions about you know can hyperledgeries support this or will hyperledgeries support this just ask we'll figure it out just because it's not on the list doesn't mean there was a decision made not to put it there yeah i think that's a really good point why i i know that uh dino and i had a a pre-read the opportunity to look at this prior to um prior to this being shared with the the greater tsc and we definitely did find some things that were like what about this and how does this work and that sort of thing so recommend the the tsc review this document ask questions comment make suggestions and uh you know that that will allow for david and rye to make this an even even better document for people who will have questions about what it is that the the staff is going to be able to provide them if their project is a graduated project or their project is an incubated project or um they're in the labs area right so um i go through here uh ask questions comment and we can definitely bring this back in the in the agenda next week and see where we're at with it see if there's any other concerns that people want to bring um bring up on the tsc call dino and another reason i wanted this list is to give projects more of a carrot to move up the list rather than a stick say well i want paid circle ci it's like great um get get a proposal together in an incubation and we can do more fancy sky stuff for you so that's the sort of motivation i have and i was requesting some of the details is the carrot for what do we get at the next level yeah i think that is a really good point dino and maybe i'm wrong but yeah there didn't seem to be much differentiation between the between the two levels of projects at least as far as i could see in terms of you know why would a project go through that who but yeah i think this maybe clarifies that a little bit more park yeah i'll agree with both dany or sorry dino and uh david strongly like we for the past like three or four years we have not had really any incentives for uh projects and incubation to become active uh and if we had some i think that would be a great thing and for those of you who haven't been around long enough for activities become graduated um sorry dracy sorry about that well i'm glad to hear i'm glad to hear a heart that makes sense and this maybe is where the details matter so again i realize we have limited time but if people do want to look at the document and say hey this this really does make sense at the graduated level versus some other level you know but we do want that level of feedback on the detail so please edit the document mark it up leave comments whatever we really want to make sure that this is kind of aligned to you know what the community is you know needing so feedback certainly welcome part and i think where this gets complicated is dependencies so like right now we have a situation where like aries is a graduated project and they want to run like a thorough audit but they use ursa code which is not graduated and you know right now just doesn't have the community support to be graduated uh so then then what do we do um but but i don't i think this can be a discussion for another time nathan well and i think one of the points there is that we our hands are tied if it's in hyper ledger's best interest to provide a service because a lab is just really exciting and we we ought to do a some marketing around it or because you know there's something that is a a shared dependency and we're trying to encourage cross project collaboration i don't think it's invalid for us to say well let's make an exception to provide a resource because there's a real pressing need that you know we agree is something we should cover but i i still think it's good to put together kind of a here's what to expect and here's the incentive to try to move forward through the steps because um it does provide a lot of motivation if you know you know if i if we start incubation it'll unlock some things that we need or if we can get to graduate it then i get to do this i get to participate with the security audit or we're going to get this kind of regular release marketing yeah i think some of those incentives can be very motivating for the companies that participate in those projects can agree more um anybody else have any final comments right so uh two kind of action items well maybe three kind of action items for those of you who haven't yet reviewed the project reports please take the opportunity and time to do that um secondly please have review of the proposal that heart put together regarding attending the different meetings provide any sort of comments or feedback on that and then third action item out of this for the tsc is to review this particular document provide any additional comments feedback thoughts on this we will be again hopefully bringing up for votes the proposal that heart has given us and um digging in and looking at this and providing any additional commentary next week on this particular item so if there's nobody else who has any comments or questions at this point i think we will close the meeting all right so we will see you all next week have a great week thank you bye thanks tracy thank you spacy bye