 and welcome to day 14 of the Level Up Symposium. My name is Andrew Scriver, and it is my pleasure to welcome you to this presentation of Port Paroles, the assembly presented by the Associated Designers of Canada with support from Toaster Labs Mixed Reality Performance Atelier. I'm one of the co-curators of the symposium and a member of the ADC, and I am super happy to be your host for this event. I'd like to first acknowledge to you all that I'm coming from the Chachaagay, which is the unceded land of the settler city of Montreal, which is and was long before colonizers arrived, a place of conference, conflict, and creativity for many indigenous peoples, including the Ganyin Gahaga, the Anishinaabe, the Huron-Wendat, and Abenaki peoples. I am honored and humbled to be able to be here to create and share with you all, and so I offer my thanks. And so in this spirit of gratitude, I would like to, of course, acknowledge the support of the Canada Council for the Arts who is the primary funder of the symposium as a whole, as well as our other sponsors, IATCI, the University of British Columbia, CITT, Alberta Chapter, Concordia University, Ryerson University, York University, and all of our individual donors, of course. Thank you so much for your support. I'd also like to thank our volunteers as well as all of our presenters under the symposium and all of you attendees for making this symposium, what it has grown to be. We couldn't do this without you and it's been an amazing experience so far, so thank you all so much. So for your information, all of our symposium events will be recorded and presented in a freely available archive on our website within a few days of the event. So check back and rewatch some of all of our events. So thank you all for joining us here today live. You are watching this live stream either on the Level Up website, which is levelup.designers.ca, on HowlRound through our partners at Toaster Lab or on the respective Facebook pages for the ADC or Toaster Lab. So regardless of your viewing platform embedded on the same page as the video in the top right-hand corner is the chat function. You can click on the little speech bubble in order to ask questions that way. At any time during the presentation and when it gets to Q and A, I will read them out to the presenters, presenter, sorry. So this event can be enjoyed through auditory or visual access or combination of both. So as I said, I will read aloud all the questions that come through the chat. This information will also appear visually at the bottom of the stream and visual access is also supported with captioning for myself and for our presenter in the archived version of the event. So if you require technical assistance at any point during the event, please email levelupatdesigners.ca for immediate support or to provide feedback following the event or for any of our events. If you enjoy this session, I would ask that you please consider donating to the Associated Designers of Canada to support our National Arts Service Organization in achieving its goals of advocacy, mentorship and industry promotion. Donation links are available on all viewing platforms on our website, the ADC's website, which is designers.ca or on CanadaHelps.org. So please don't consider donating. So thank you for your patience with all of our announcements. It's now my pleasure and honor to welcome our presenter of the event. Amelia Scott is a video designer, projection technologist and new media artist working in theater, opera and dance and beyond. Based out of Montreal and working across Canada, she works in the intersection of animation, video, film and live performance. She's also an instructor of video technology and design at the National Theater School of Canada. Welcome to the show, Amelia. Hi, happy to be here. Thanks, Andrew for the introduction. I really appreciate it. Oh my, I'm losing my voice already. Okay, so I'm here today to give a presentation about projects that I've been working on for the past two and a half years called The Assembly. I'm just gonna pull up my notes. It's funny, I was joking with Andrew and Emily that I'm having to do my job in order to talk about my job. I'm not usually the one on the camera while I'm running a live stream session. Okay, I've got my notes. You can see me, it's all good. Okay, so The Assembly is a verbatim documentary theater piece that was created by Brett Watson, Alex Savanovich and Annabelle Soutar. It's produced by Port Pat Gaule. Port Pat Gaule is a Montreal-based theater media company that specializes in documentary theater. What else do I have to say about Port Par Gaule? Yeah, they create and produce original documentary plays about Canadian contemporary life that inspire audiences to think critically together about current social issues. You may know, what are some other Port Pat Gaule shows? Seeds, they have toured North America quite a bit and Jimi Tro, if you're in Quebec, they've toured that quite extensively. They produce work in French and in English and now in German. So, The Assembly, it started in 2017 as a long-term documentary project. There are four assembly plays. There are two that were created in Montreal, one in English, one in French, one that we did in the United States at the University of Maryland and now one in Munich, which is in German. And that premiered at the München Kämischwilde in October of 2020, which was a great honor to be able to create that work and present it to a live audience for two performances only before theaters got shut down again in Germany, but it was an honor nonetheless. So, what is this play that I'm talking about? In each touring city, the play's creative team sets up and records encounters, which four strangers of wildly different ideological leanings face off and candidly confront the issues that most divide them. So, a play script is created from the verbatim content of these recorded encounters and on stage, actors play the four real-life characters in a unique play specific to each city. And we have now pivoted The Assembly experience to create an online version or versions called, you know, The Digital Assembly or Assemble numérique. And these dialogues are broadcast live, so they're not reenacted by performers. They're actually the real participants of live, moderated conversation. I'm going to get to the video part because that's what I'm here to talk about, but I just wanna give some more context about the project just so that when I'm jumping around, we know what I'm talking about. So each play is different in its content, but it's all sort of following the same structure. And so there's three parts to the performance. The first part is the reenactment of this evening that's held with these four different participants. And Alex and Brett moderate those live conversations, or live, well, they are live when they're recorded. But anyways, Alex and Brett are the moderators for those except if it's not in English or French, then we hire somebody else to moderate it. So for our Munich version, there was two company members of the Chemischwita who acted as the moderators. And so whoever the moderators are, they play themselves in the live staged version. So that's kind of a cool part is that Brett and Alex are there for the real assembly, but then they then play themselves in the reenactment of that evening. And the other participants are played by actors. So first part of the show is this reenactment. The second part is what we call the long table. And that's a moment when the actors leave their space at the table and invite the audience to come and continue the conversation basically. And for us as the creators, that's really what the show is about. That's the most exciting part of the play in a lot of ways that really is the play. And what we have presented before then is just a provocation to incite this moment of discourse with the public. So that's what's really exciting. And then there's a little conclusion part afterwards that's sort of a continuation from our first section. So that gives you kind of an overview, basic concept of what this project is about. Emily is graciously controlling my screen sharing here. Just to check in Emily, can you show? Yes, we've got my PowerPoint. Okay, great. We've got the power. So I'll talk a bit about my work on the assembly. So here we see this is the set. And what's really interesting is that we've toured these assemblies around to different places. And created different assemblies in different countries. And it's always these screens and this table that are there every time. So I often have deja vu of being in the same place, but it's a different conversation. So, yeah, we see these screens on stage. And maybe you can't see so well, but there's four little camcorders on the table. And that's really what we're working with. So this video system was designed by Guillaume Asseneau. He was brought onto the project earlier than I was with the challenge of how do we have four live camera feeds that are going to eight displays? There's eight displays because the audience is on both sides. We have performed it on one side, but the two side is really the best experience for the show. But how do we have four live cameras, eight displays on a modest theater budget? We wanted low latency and to have control over the camera feeds. So that means that the cameras aren't going direct into the displays, but they're routing through a computer where we can manipulate the cameras in a show control software. So that's Guillaume's part. He was the system designer and started in the rehearsal process, he started with the integration, but eventually I was brought on to continue with that work. So I'm basically acting as, yeah, video integrator. I'm looking at the use of cameras from more of a dramaturgical perspective, a narrative perspective, and I'm programming the show file and acting as head of video during tech. So I really consider Guillaume and ITB Co. video designers on this project. And I just wanted to say a huge thank you to him because it's been such a pleasure developing this project with him. But for me, it really shows that video is such a big medium when we're integrating it into a live performance that uses technologies and expertise from various different backgrounds. And I always find that it's a much more powerful experience when we have more than one person on the video team. So anyways, I think this is a great example of that where Guillaume really knows the tech super well. He's like an expert in low latency systems and also has this vast IT background, which really benefits us. And then I came in a bit more of like as a designer perspective to kind of shape the dramaturgy of the video. I'm gonna dive a bit into the tech while I'm not diving in that deep here. Whoopsie, I just lost my place in my notes. Bear with me, folks. Okay, video system. I have to click on this window. Okay, it's happening. Oh, I meant to show this earlier. This is Annabelle, Brett and Alex, who are the playwrights and creators of the assembly. This is for one of our digital assemblies we did in December. And I just love that we're still able to work together and that they have these nice colorful masks that match my video test signal. So, video system. As you can see, we've got our four displays. We have one camera on each participant. The two people seated at center, those are the moderators. We don't have a camera feed on them because they're really just sort of shaping the conversation and our focus is on the participants. You'll also see we have four cameras. They're kind of in this big, I don't know if you can see my cursor. Can you? No, you can't. That's okay. They're in a bit of a spousal with some cables there, but they're just little cameras that we have on stage and they're focused quite tight to each participant's position. Kind of the magic piece of hardware that makes this all work is we have a couple of these deck link duo cards. They can be used as capture cards or as outputs. So that allows us to route four camera feeds into a laptop and we have another card that can route four outputs out that go to our displays. We've now switched our system to use an external GPU. We found that that helps with the processing because it's a lot for one laptop to be doing, but I still think it's incredible. Every time we go to a new theater, people are like, what? You're running four cameras and eight televisions off one MacBook. It's a lot. The computer's working hard, but we've found a way to do it where it's quite stable, which I'm really proud of. And this is a shot from when we premiered, we did the English Montreal Assembly at Crow's Theater in their Crow's Nest studio space, which is like, it's a huge show emotionally and it was compacted into this tiny, tiny space and it was just, it was very, a very explosive experience. But you know, here I am at my tech booth and I'm literally like two meters away from the stage. It shows you how close you were. But as you can see on my laptop screen in the corner, we're running this off of Malouman, which is a show control software. I think in Canadian theater, we're used to using QLab, we're used to using Isadora. Malouman is another option. I'm not a Malouman rapper or anything like that, but just to let people know that it's out there, you're also able to rent licenses for it. So it is quite accessible for projects. And I just find it's really robust. It's very stable and it has a really intuitive interface, which I think is really helpful for people maybe who are new to video. So that's what we're running the show off of. There's nothing particularly in Malouman specific as to why we're using it. We have some, I'll get into it, but we have some effects on the cameras that allow us to zoom in and to pan that camera feet around. And that is like a shader in Malouman, but it's actually being controlled by a little piece of software that Guillaume wrote for the show. So Malouman's not, anyways, Malouman's great. But just to say this project isn't quite specific to Malouman, it just was our choice because the interface is so easy to program in. And it's a nice program to use. So let's go back and I'm going in the notes. Okay, I'm gonna talk a bit about this video integration. So like I said, we have one camera on each participant who's agreed to participate in this assembly this evening where they're brought together with people of opposing perspectives. Bret and Alex are off camera as the moderators. And so in these shows, each participant has different political ideologies and affiliations. And throughout the evening, they're being asked provocative questions about current divisive issues. And so each of these personas, they're sort of calculating throughout the evening how much they want to reveal about themselves. Some of them stay guarded either for the whole show or up until a certain moment when they expose their positions on certain issues. Some are very upfront about where they stand. And we basically use the camera to give us more intimate access to each of these participants. So we see their reactions when certain things are being talked about at the table. We see their hesitations that maybe they wanna speak about something but they stop themself. So the camera really permeates any boundaries that the participant is trying to set up. And so we get a closer look into each character's experience through this often very uncomfortable social situation that they've been invited into. I'll just stay on this image for now. So the movements of the camera is really deeply tied to the conflict structure of the play. So there's times when we'll zoom in on one participant or maybe two participants to highlight a conflict or an alliance that's occurring between them. Other times we'll do a close up on someone who isn't speaking and maybe they're implicated in the conversation but they're trying to guard themselves from a perceived backlash. I'm gonna kind of talk, I'll show an example of how we've used video in one show and I'll show some of those camera movements for you. Other times there's a participant who doesn't have an opportunity to share their thoughts, maybe they don't feel comfortable sharing or they're being talked over but their reactions visually kind of shows where they stand in the conversation. So it's really just as much as we wanna highlight who's speaking, we also wanna include the experiences of those who are listening and witnessing this conversation. And in that way, the video acts as a bit of a balance or the video can recontextualize what's happening around the table by elevating the presence of one participant over another. And so for the live play, the audience gets kind of a dual perspective where they're seeing this conversation play out with the actors and then they get this recontextualization in how we've balanced their presence on screen. And so it's a bit of a push and pull of trying to highlight who's pulling focus in the conversation, but sometimes somebody has too much airtime and we wanna focus on somebody else. And that's really where it's verbatim theater. So if somebody doesn't speak, we can't put in words for them. We really only have the materials to work with this is what was said on that evening. And so there's been times when, yeah, a character hasn't been able to get a word in, but maybe had things to say. And so rather than having that person just sort of sit and bear witness for the whole evening, they can be quite active in their reactions. And so maybe we don't hear what they say, but we still know what they think based on how we see them react. And in that way, we can kind of elevate the presence of maybe the quietest person in the room. And these conversations do get quite heated. So it's nice to be able to have some control over that balance. So, okay, I'm going back to the stream. I can see what's happening. Emily, could we play that first video? I'll give a little spiel before we play it actually. Could you pause it? Thank you. So this is a recording from rehearsal at the University of Maryland. We were doing a bit of a publicity shoot and I was capturing the screen. So this isn't, the lighting and everything isn't quite set here, but we're gonna watch it. We're gonna watch this clip and then we're gonna go back over it without the audio and I'm just gonna talk about kind of how the cameras are moving and what, where with me, I'm trying to emphasize with it. So go ahead, Emily. Clapper. Can I get some more wine? Of course. Yeah, sure, go ahead. Bring the bottle. Bring the bottle or an IV drip. So when everyone's ready, who wants to ask their question first? I can go. Sure, go ahead, Joe. So kind of what I was getting from the interview was that like, and a lot of people might disagree, but my question was, do you think it could be a problem that we're diminishing racism towards white people? Well, okay, hold on. So when you clarify, when you say diminishing, do you mean that we're not properly recognizing racism towards white people? Yeah. What is racism? The discrimination against a certain race, a certain ethnic background, sometimes a certain color. That's kind of what I've gotten in the past, like what I've taken classes and stuff and talked to people. I'm not sure that's how I would define racism. Okay, how would you define it? What I hear you talking about is discrimination against white people or bias-related comments towards white people. But I don't see white people being systemically disadvantaged in our society. Okay, so yeah, so going off of what you said, do you think there's no racism of white people? Have white people been systemically disadvantaged in our society? Sometimes, yeah. Where? There have been businesses that promote other races, other backgrounds, rather than white people. What I'm talking about are policies, laws, and practices that advantage one group over the other across the board, right? So yeah, so totally, I agree. I think there hasn't been anything towards white people like that. I'm just saying, like in general, I'm not disagreeing with anyone, obviously. But- The reason I bring it up, because it kind of takes the air out of your question. Okay. And I could hear you saying that people are making generalizations about white people. But to make generalizations about white people in our country doesn't mean that white people end up dead. And it doesn't mean that- And then loans get denied. Okay, but if we were really trying- So we're gonna play it again. Emily, if you're able to play it with the audio, maybe just on low so I can kind of talk over it, that would be perfect. Awesome. Okay, so, as you could tell, quite intense subject matter that we're digging into here. We're sort of starting off, we do a bit of a zoom in on Davis. Davis is this man on the third screen, because we wanna catch his reaction when, oh, I can't remember her name, Jill. Jill says something quite ignorant. And we wanna focus on Davis. We also have quite a close-up on Maria there. Maria's on the first screen. And that's, can you see my cursor? No, that's fine. Maria's on the first screen. And what we're kind of doing here is that we have this character, Jill, who's making sort of an ignorant comment and emphasizing who's maybe more hurt by that comment, seeing their reactions. And then as Davis basically starts debating with her, and as he says, taking the air out of her question, her debate, less of an emphasis on him, less of an emphasis on Maria. And on the second screen, we have this character here who's not saying anything throughout this whole debate, but we learn further in the play that he agrees with Jill and her perspective. And so this is a moment for us to do a bit of foreshadowing to kind of zoom in on him and see, he's nodding along with what she says, because that really resonates with him. He really feels that. But then when Davis kind of contradicts her, he stops, he feels nervous. Little moments like that that we're trying to catch. And the woman on the first screen, Maria, that character, it was really difficult because it was really an instance where she didn't get to say much at the table. And there was quite an imbalance in the personas that we had. We had these two older men and two younger women. And the younger women certainly did get talked over. And Maria didn't always get a word in, but we were able to give her a voice in a way by the performer being really active in her reactions around the table. And so in that way, we did get to hear what Maria had to say. So that's an example of sort of the work that I'm doing during the show. It's, you know, I'm spending all my time in rehearsal, watching these screens, following the actor's movements, trying to highlight little moments like that. And so the final experience, you know, it's not super obvious. In fact, I'd say it's incredibly subtle what I'm doing. I don't expect anybody to really pick up on it, but that's sort of the delicate nature of the conflict structure of this show and how I'm tying into that. I'm going to go back to my little PowerPoint presentation. Thank you, Emily. And I just have some photos of other versions of the show. And so I'm just gonna talk a bit about like, what's happening there and why are we using video in this way? Because I guess that's what you're here to hear from me. So at this moment when we see Hope, she's across all four screens. We have a moment earlier in the show where each character presents themselves to the rest of the group. And so they're able to say a bit about their politics and their beliefs. And at that moment we zoom in on them, they're across four screens and we're really just highlighting their eyes and we're getting this kind of nice poetic introduction, nice intimate moment, seeing them really up close. This is a moment, this is from L'Assemblée, the French Montreal play. So there's an English Montreal and the French Montreal play, but they're completely different plays, different participants, different conversation. And this is a moment when they're listening to an audio recording of a polarizing figure that they then later react to this recording. And so we have quite tight close-ups on each of the performers at this moment. And it's just this moment where for many minutes they're sitting and they're listening. It's not super active, but the cameras in this way make it a much more dynamic moment because we're able to get access really to sort of their, not their subconscious, but a bit. And for me, that's really exciting because I get to work with the performers in this way where, you know, seeing their performance, trying to capture it, but also giving feedback and saying like, hey, just so you know, we're catching you at this really great moment, like that is very visible and it's telling us this on stage and so that they're kind of aware in a way of these small movements that they can make and the power that that has on stage at certain moments. This is a moment where we have kind of a cutaway interview to hear the perspective of this one participant on the left and we have the other participants who are staying at the table and sort of this, they're sort of frozen in time a little bit. And we've chosen to zoom in on both of them to share the screen because they're two characters that have a bit of a conflict. And in this person's interview, they're not directly talking about each of these people, but they're talking about concepts that were discussed at the table that implicates both of them and the conflict that happens. And so we just get this sort of window into them frozen in time in the conversation, sort of paired with commentary by this one participant's experience. So that's a nice little moment we've created. I already talked about hope. This is another moment when we have sort of a cutaway interview. And again, it's to sort of have these, they're almost like living portraits when we freeze on these people around the table. They're not like actually frozen, but they just sort of stay in the moment at which we cut away from them. And we get to hear, we have this woman in the foreground, we get to hear her perspective of what was happening at the table. So it's nice that we can kind of have them balanced in that, especially this woman was very loud in her perspectives and her beliefs and took up a lot of room at the table. So it's nice that we can kind of balance that by having the other characters present when she's speaking. This is quite a controversial moment in the play. We created a restaging of a speech that this character gave at, I don't know what to call it. I think it's been a while since I worked on this version of the assembly, but anyways, I'm not gonna get into it, but basically she is expressing in a public platform some very dangerous beliefs that she has towards immigration. And so we restaged this moment of her giving this speech and in this moment, we have the performers manipulating the cameras at the table to give an alternate perspective of her and her face. And she's taking up all the screens. So I'm kind of throughout the piece trying to balance this loud character and give presence to the other voices who maybe aren't getting to speak when she's speaking. And then this is a moment when we give her the microphone literally and the cameras focus on her. So that's the stage play. That's what I've been doing. And it's an ongoing project. Like I said, we've done four versions now and there's more that will be coming. So we're always kind of evolving this project and always exploring new things that I can do with the video in the piece. And again, it's really, really subtle, but I really enjoy that detailed tie to the text. Next part of my presentation, I'm gonna talk about our pivot to our online assemblies. So as we all know, COVID came and we weren't able to have the audience with us literally, but we created a format for having live discourse between different participants. And we've discovered a way where we can have the audience with us. So this is from our first online assembly in June 2020. This is kind of what my life is like looking at all of these screens. And so I talked about there's this long table moment where we invite the public to come to the table and speak about their thoughts. And for us, that was the challenge in trying to create a live version of the assembly because that's really the most important moment of the show. And what we're seeing in this photograph is how we created that moment, how we were able to have the public there with us. And so it's a lot of Zoom hijinks, I will say, basically capturing the gallery view and being able to manipulate that and disseminate that inside of our online streaming system. But here we have the table on stage. It's separated to give more distance between each of the participants. Again, for these online assemblies, it's actually just like the real people coming to speak rather than an actor playing somebody. So that's different as well. We have way less control over the conversation. And so it's really exciting to be layering theatricality over top of something that's happening live in front of you. So there at the tables and projected on the back wall, this is our long table moment where we have the public who are in sort of a private Zoom chat here with us on stage and those watching at home are able to see the view of the theater with those people, they are having the conversation. And we kind of cut between the two experiences in order to hear them. So I've got, this is a... Unfortunately, when I'm working on the show, I don't have a lot of time to take photos but I did get this one snapshot. So this is sort of what the experience looks like at home. You're in Zoom and we're capturing the camera feeds from each of those participants at the table. And here we have cameras on Alex and Brett because otherwise you wouldn't see them. And I do the whole show in OBS which is an open source streaming software. And I've created all these different compositions of those cameras to allow us to have different combinations of conversations basically. So trying to anticipate who's gonna talk to who, how can we capture reactions? How can we get a sense of the whole group in the theater? How do we have the audience at home viewing this experience? And how do we focus on each individual? So I have, this is me, this is in December we did another online assembly at my little work station. This is a setting up. So it's really kind of a haphazard thing and we're developing the system as we go. We're always creating new additions to it. My station is over on the right. I have this nice preview monitor and I've got this beautiful touchscreen. So I have most of my compositions on this touchscreen and I'm just watching that, listening to the conversation and I'm switching between the different feeds throughout the performance, throughout the conversation. And to the left, this is Guillaume's Zoom station. So he's doing a lot of Zoom dissemination, Zoom management and DI feeds going between computers. There's certain things that he's capturing that he's sending to me that I'm sending back to him. There's a lot of routing going on. Oh dear, I'm getting a conversation. I'm getting a phone call. I hope you can't hear that ringing. Okay, that's gone. So what's really nice is that Guillaume and I get to work again together on the online assemblies which is really great because I sort of took over on the live place. What else can I say about it? This is our video tower. So Guillaume created this big beast in order to run OBS because we've got eight cameras coming in. That's going to four displays, plus, plus, plus, we're always adding more screens as well as sending out to Zoom. So he's built this big beast as a whole mess of cables going in and out of it. But that allows us to have eight HD feeds coming in and to have it nice and clean with low latency. And this is a better shot of my setup here. I've got the script and script. It's really like a show flow document. That's what's exciting about it because it's live. You never know what's going to happen. We just sort of have a series of steps that we're going to go through and Brett and Alex try and form the conversation to make that happen. And yeah, you can see, I've got all these different compositions. It's kind of hard to see. I mean, really it's just a whole bunch of faces, but I've got split screens and individual close-ups and combinations of things. There's also moments where I bring the Zoom kind of gallery view into it so we get the sense of the audience being there with us. And my position through the show is I'm just watching those screens and I'm listening to the conversation and I'm chasing conflict, basically. So just as much as I'm trying to follow who's speaking, I'm also keeping an eye on who disagrees and how are they reacting. And that's where I have these kind of split screen moments where if two people are opposing each other, they're talking to each other, we can get them side by side and see them sort of hashing it out as well as alliances, that form. Yeah, it's really exciting. It's always just kind of a big, I don't know, it kind of washes over because I'm so in the zone that at the end of it, it's like, what happened? But I've prepared, I guess I'll check in with Emily, do we have that final clip that I've ever sent to you? Oh my gosh, it did amazing. Thank you, Emily. Emily has been helping me a lot with technical assistance today. So we're gonna watch, this is an excerpt of our most recent online assembly. This was in Toronto produced by Crow's Theater. And let me look at my notes here. Okay, this is just a little blurb about it. So this virtual experience is a theatrical response to an essential but polarizing question to whom are corporations accountable? Should corporations primarily pursue profits for their shareholders or be responsible more broadly to various stakeholders like employees, civil society and the environment? So with these online assemblies, like I said, it's not actors performing, we just bring the people together and corporate role are really exploring this format of creating discourse around different types of subjects. So this one is about corporations and it was kind of created for the, I don't know, Toronto finance community. And we were set up to do our traditional live stream system and while preparing for that event, Ontario announced a stay at home order going back into lockdown. And so there was a bit of a gray area. If theaters were able to continue what they were doing and streaming or if they would have to shut down. And so finally we had 24 hours notice to change the whole event to be able to be done virtually. So all the participants could come in over zoom. And that was, that was crazy, but we made it work. If we had more time, it could have been a little higher quality resolution wise, but we were still able to create, I think quite a dynamic experience for people at home. So Emily, you can play this clip and we'll see kind of what that felt like for those people watching at home. We're going to do, an exercise together, part of solving problems. You know, wait a second, I've got to interrupt here. You've got to jump in. Go for it. David Miller said a whole bunch of nonsense. The first of all, he talks about the last 40 years being some kind of devastating experience with corporate governance and with the world economy. If you look at any statistics over the last 40 years or the last 50 years, you'll find that global poverty has declined. Global standards of living have gone up. International trade has expanded. Goods and services are available on a wide scale basis. But can the planet, can the planet actually host all that growth? That's a separate issue. But is it separate though? Well, if you want to- How many planets do we have? We've got one planet and what am I supposed to say in response to that? Well- And he's got his way. Now, the reason the fishery industry went down the tubes is because there was no property rights involved with the fishing. Anybody could go out there and fish. It didn't matter. That was an environmental travesty in its own right. But it was because there was no property right. There was nothing. You just got a ship, dragged it out, took it away. Whether it was diminishing the resource or not, nobody noticed or gave- Or somebody else. Not nobody noticed or gave or somebody probably did notice. But they didn't do anything about it. So the government should have handled that. The government should have stepped in and managed the resource or should the corporation have managed the resource? This is the question. Well, the corporation- The resource. It was a huge public resource. The regulation of the oceans and off the coast is all based on government regulation. Wait a second. Sorry. Go ahead, Amy. The idea that you should ask a corporation to regulate that. Yeah, I know. It's a juice. Well, I'm trying to place the responsibility somewhere. Where is it? Thank you. So that's a little snapshot of what the online assembly is like and throughout that, you know, we had Terrence talking. So I'm listening to his conversation. I'm watching everybody's faces to see their reactions, trying to give a sense of the group, the individuals, what he's saying, his reactions, Alex kind of shaping the conversation. You're basically watching all six people all at the same time and just cutting between all those different compositions to give the most dynamic experience for people at home. So that really, that concludes my presentation. I'm sure people have questions I'd be happy to answer. I think, yeah, yeah, that's my work. That's what I've done. That's great. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. I actually, I have to, I have to divulge that I did obviously, you know, but to the audience that I worked on the version at the Segal Center. So I have had like a personal experience with, with putting this show together. And so it's actually really great to hear about the other versions of it because I didn't know everything that, that you've been doing. And especially with the digital version, I didn't have any idea that that was happening. So that's really great. Thank you for sharing that. I actually wanted to ask, because we were just talking about the digital version, let's just really get into it from, from your perspective as a theater creator, as a designer, how, how is this digital version theater? Because it's being done live with, with people that are not actors, mostly. So how is it, how do you think, how do you feel about it being theater? How is this theater? You know, it's a, that's a tricky question there, Andrew. What I will say is that, you know, even in the stage version of the assembly, I think I already said this really the whole purpose for that show is to create discourse. It's about polarization and how people aren't talking, where they're just fighting and we're trying, I mean, I don't know if we're successful most of the time, but there's the hope of coming to some sort of middle ground through discourse or at least creating a space for discourse. And so in that way, our objective isn't even really to be doing theater, theater is just a tool to bring people together. And so this online version serves in the same way where we have these people coming and speaking. But we have a long table moment where those watching from home are able to come in and give their perspective, talk amongst each other. So live stream or play version or not, that's what this project's about. And I think that we've been successful. And in fact, I actually think that the online version sparks more engagement because there's the chat that's happening throughout. And we have part of it where we cut to somebody who's moderating, well, observing moderating kind of the chat. And we get to hear comments from the audience that way as well. So there's that opportunity and then there's the long table moment as well as after the show, there's breakout rooms that people can go to to continue the conversation, you know, as if they're in the theater lobby and people have been so active in that. So that's where I think that this online version is successful in that that's what the show's all about is just bringing people together to have conversation. Okay. Yeah, it's great actually because I mean, honestly, 90% of theater, the whole point of it is to create discourse and to shift perspectives. I think that good theater is meant to do that. So yeah, that's great. So we actually have a question. Did you notice a difference in comfort of participants of the theater versus the streamed? Were they more open and confrontational when at home? Good question. What I would say, what would I say? What am I going to say? You know, the theater experience is really interesting. I think people are a bit more hesitant, but the plays I think are much more emotionally charged and provocative than these live stream conversations because the plays are something, a conversation that occurred over several hours that's being reduced to about an hour or less. So it's super intense and super condensed, which is really, I don't know, triggering and provocative. So I think that audience members may feel more shy, but I think that they feel more activated to come to the table and share their perspective. Whereas the online experience, I think people do feel more comfortable to share, and in that way, we often get in those conversations, people sort of taking turns sharing their opinion rather than actually assembling around a table and having a conversation. That happens sometimes in the live version where people just sort of say their bit and leave the table. That's something that I've observed. All right. In terms of your process when you're doing the live version and you're actively doing like dramaturgy of the piece during the piece, which is quite fantastic just to see your process in that. What do you think as a creator, what are you learning from this and that you can take out of this digital version into your future? What has really been an aha moment? This is perhaps less artistic, but the online version is incredibly intense. I'm like programming on the fly, and it's this hyper focus and presence in what is happening in the room. I have noticed since then just my, I guess, efficiency in which I'm able to sort of observe, make it happen. While I've been exploring some new creations, luckily we're still able to do that in Quebec, so that's something I'm taking away from it. What else about the live version? Yeah, that's the main thing. It's sort of this hyper focus and presence in the room. Sometimes as a designer, you're observing, but you're not super engaged always. You're kind of, oh, I'm seeing this. I'm thinking about it and the live one, it's like you're there. You're in it. You're a part of it. So that's an exciting position to be in. Yeah, it's not something that we get to always be in that position as designers. It's only when you're doing the technical portion of your job as well, when you're also an operator, that you suddenly get to experience the emotion of what you're creating. It can be quite jarring when it doesn't work, but when it does work, the energy that you get out of that, I imagine is a similar kind of feeling. I haven't acted in 12 years, but it's the same kind of feeling of when you're performing live on stage. Absolutely. I'm not a performer, but the audience at home, everything that they see is because of choices that I'm making. So I am in a really important role there. And I often have Annabelle over my shoulder. Chris Abraham was there in Toronto. He was like, bring the audience in. We need to see this. So I'm getting kind of feedback, but mostly I'm just jiving with it. So I don't know. I feel quite privileged that they have so much trusted me to be in that position. It's awesome. How technically is that screen set up with all of the touch buttons in order to run that? How have you built that? So that's really just OBS. There's a multi-view out. So you're able to have your program, which is your preview. So you're queuing up shots, and then there's a multi-view option. And what's great about the multi-view is that if it was just on a normal screen, you could click on your different scenes to activate them, or at least preview them. And so we basically just have that multi-view set up to go to the touchscreen, and I can through them. What I will say about the multi-view is its limit is, I think it's 24 compositions, and I have many more than that. So I've got the most important ones on my screen, and then I've got a separate keyboard with a whole bunch of stickers all over it, labeling different scenes. And that's where OBS is really great for having these compositions and being able to switch between them, but it means that every different composition needs a different button to activate it. And so I get into trouble where we want to have title overlays or logos and a different, you know, we have the compositions, but then we want to see the composition with the zoom gallery around it. And it's like, you need a button for all of those. So I end up being a bit of an octopus with like my eyeballs everywhere and my fingers everywhere throughout the show. But it's quite a nice system with this touchscreen that allows me to just be more engaged in the conversation and thinking less about what button do I have to press. Do you have any like delightful, horrible experiences with anything where you've accidentally pressed on like four buttons at the wrong time? Oh, nothing that way. You know, it's more seeing a moment happening and you're like, ah, I want to get that. And it's like, what button do I press? And the first time that we did this online version, we didn't have the touchscreen. And so I just had a keyboard with a whole bunch of buttons. And so for each shot, I was having to think of, I want to capture those, those two people in a split screen. Which button is that, press the button, send it to program. So it was like, I was having to do so much brain work for each shot that it was insane. And it, you know, I think I did pretty good, but it was very intense. But certainly now with the touchscreen, I'm able to be much more quick on my feet, which I appreciate. Yeah. Touchscreens are great when you have multiple buttons that you need to press and not, you don't have to necessarily think about jumping from one window to another. And it's all just invisible in front of you. Yeah. For like live VJing. Touchscreens. Great. Touchscreens. So we have a question here. I don't, maybe you can answer this. So they ask, I haven't found reports yet on outcomes for the participants. Does anyone check in with them about what's changed after they agreed to be part of the assembly? What effects does this approach have? Yeah. So part of the show, the staged show, I don't know about the live stream version, is that they do follow up interviews with each of the participants and they record those. And those are included in the show. So I talked about moments where we have these kind of breakouts to an interview. So we're reenacting the conversation at the table and then we'll cut away to this interview that was done with one of the participants afterward. And that gives us, so literally two people have a confrontation and then we'll go, and they'll get up from the table and they'll say, I can't believe that Shane said that to me. That was so insulting. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we get to hear what they think. And then we'll go back to the table. So that, in that way, that gives us access to their thoughts on it. Something that we've really noticed in creating the assembly is like, just in general, in trying to create change, people need time to process things and absorb things and experiences. And so the speed at which these assemblies get created and the times at which the follow-up interviews are had, we get very different perspectives. But I think giving people time is important to allow them to reflect so that they're not like, oh, he said this and it made me feel bad. But for them to say, he said this and it made me feel bad at the time. But now I think about it. Oh, what I said was actually rooted in some prejudice that I wasn't aware of and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know? And that's where, I don't know, but also maybe if there's too much time, people forget about certain things. So that's part of the process and that's part of our fallibility, fallibility, I don't know, as creators trying to create this thing, it's not a perfect model, certainly. And I will say, you know, there's participants who don't want their names used. So they're kind of anonymous and have cut off contact with the creators after participating. And that's something as a team that we're trying to mitigate. It's like, how do we create these situations? How do we talk about these issues without causing trauma? It's really delicate. And as part of the creative team, where, you know, each time we do the assembly, we're learning more and more about the effects that that process has on each of the participants. Again, we are working with the public. It's not fiction. So, yeah, we're working on it. Okay. How much interaction do you personally, have you had with the real participants? None. Okay. Yeah, the first, the original like meeting that they have, that they record, I'm not there for that. So I'm coming in when it's already turned into text and it's actors playing these people. However, sometimes the participants come to the show and that gets very meta because they are in the audience. Seeing somebody play them, we've had instances of those real participants coming to the table and the long table and sometimes being lovely and just wanting to be part of the conversation, other times being a bit of a bully, maybe upset about how they were represented. That's been quite dramatic. But I've never actually talked to any of the participants, even though I've seen some of them. I just haven't wanted to engage that far. Let me just jump back to the tech a little bit. I had, because I know that from the version that we did at the Segal Center that this came up a couple of times, in terms of your cameras, because you don't actually have control of the focus during the show, what do you have to deal with when it comes to the zoom ins and the zoom outs and all that fun stuff? So really, that is we focus the camera at the top of the show and no touchy, it stays there for the rest of the show. And so that means that if it's focus is slightly off, it's off for the whole show. So if it's slightly off and then we do a zoom in on somebody, we're just catching this part of their face. It also means that if the performers are really switching it up with their movements, it's hard to capture them. And that's why I'm in rehearsal every day. I'm in rehearsal with the system. Basically, as they're developing their performance, I'm developing how I capture their performance. And so usually things are kind of all over the place at the beginning and I'm zooming in the wrong place and they're changing up where they're moving, but it all kind of falls into an equilibrium where I know, okay, at this moment, they're going to be leaning like this. So when I zoom in, I also need to move it over a little bit to catch them. So that's just like a huge level of detail that I have to put into my programming that's like intrinsically tied to each performer. But I don't know, it's exciting. And for the performers themselves, does this come down to specific blocking for those moments and working out with them or do you have to follow? It's really that I follow. What's interesting is that we really... We want them to be aware of the cameras, but we don't want them shaping their performance for the camera. So we kind of don't talk about it until we really need to. And so my job is really to follow them and then there'll be certain moments where we kind of go and it's not like I can't talk to the actors or anything, but it's just giving them the freedom because they're in a very difficult position of having to really capture this very real person and speak their words in a very naturalistic way. And so through all this really charged conversation. So we're just trying to give them the freedom to really be present in that moment and I'm doing the work of trying to catch them where I can. Okay. So just as like a much larger question and I might... Yeah, I know you talked about this a little bit and I apologize if I put you more on the spot for this one. But what do you think that we gain with the use of cameras in live performance and what is lost when you put cameras into a show? It really depends on how it's integrated in terms of just cameras as a general video tool in performance. Sometimes it's much more of an aesthetic thing that we're trying to use. I would say like this show is one where I feel like best about the use of cameras because it is so intrinsically tied to the conflict structure and it does give the space for recontextualization of the conversation and gives us access to the performers in a really intimate way. That's what I think is really strong about the cameras in this piece. And we know that they're very present on stage those televisions and that the audience... I mean, I can't speak for every audience member but they probably spend a lot of time looking at their screens and it feels a bit like, oh, like that's a shame to be in a live performance and watching screens. But for this play, it's just six people sitting around the table. Like there's not big blocking or big moments. It's just people sitting and talking and so the cameras really again give us access to this performances but make it a dynamic experience. Yeah, I don't know. I've worked on shows with cameras before where... I don't know if the cameras had such a dramaturgical purpose but it was something that we were exploring. And so, you know, just when it comes to video, I think that that's important as well, that there's things that we try in performances that aren't always the most successful but I think there's merits in doing it anyways. You know, obviously if it's in conflict with the performance and not serving the story, that's bad but I think room for experimentation is always beneficial. That's great. Yeah, from my experience of working on it and watching it several times, I found... Yes, that was definitely a key part of this performance was getting to look into the people's eyes from that close but we were coming at it at the seagull from a version where it's only on one side as opposed to on the two sides and so I'm wondering as well from your experience what do you think is lost when you... or changed? How does the experience change when you're seeing it from one side or from both sides? Well, you're always only seeing it from one side, whether the audience is on one side or two sides. You're always on a side and that as well like the video kind of serves to give you access to the people who might be sitting further away from you in that one-sided procedure of staging we had a moment where everybody switched positions at the table so that you didn't feel... basically so that people didn't feel like so far away from you for the whole show but if it's a two-sided performance there are two people that are far away from you but that means that they're closer to somebody else and so that, I mean, in a grander conceptual way fits into the sort of, I don't know, presence of polarization and having access to other people's points of view and needing to come together to see all sides not to get too cheesy. That's just the right amount of cheese. I didn't actually know that you had built the turn in the performance into the one-sided. Is that something that you do with all the one-siders? I would just see the thing that was so specific. That's just for those one-sided. Yeah, so that there's not... well, and it's also for Brett and Alex basically one of them has their back to you for the entire show so that's also a purpose for it as well that you get to see that person's face at some point because they're not on camera. I mean, we didn't build that moment to the show just to see one of their faces Yeah, and doing that flip that actually created a whole bunch of work for me because I focused the camera to each performer and then halfway through the show a different performer sat there and so I had to develop a way of... again, I can't touch those cameras so being able to kind of have a wider shot that's pushed in custom to each performer so that when somebody else sits there we're locked into them. I would say that was annoying. That was very annoying. Okay, great. That answers my next question. And how do you feel about that? Yeah, and how was that? Yeah, annoying. Great. Sometimes that's how it is. What's interesting is we did the same thing for the French assembly. It was playing at Espace Go at the same time and it was also in Procedium for that performance but all of those actresses are about the same height so I was able to keep the same focus on the cameras I didn't have to change anything in the programming but then for the English assembly we had some really short people and some very tall people so that's where it was difficult. Right, yeah. I remember I loved that one during one rehearsal where it just came in and it was just perfectly on the performer's forehead says their name and then their forehead and like, great. Yeah, and you know what? That's also part of the process like I'm in rehearsal every day. I know their performances. I know just how to focus the cameras and then in tech I have to like give that to the stage manager or the technician and they don't intimately know those camera positions like I do. So that always opening night I'm like because I don't know how the cameras are going to be but usually they get it after a few tries. In terms of focusing those cameras what kind of information are you giving to the person who's actually going to be doing it? Good question. In development but usually we try and take a screenshot of the ideal position of the performers. Typically when we do the focus we have the performers sit in a particular way so that we have something that's standardized and we try and take a screenshot of that as well as having them fire those cues where we do those tight zoom-ins where it's just their eyes across all four screens so that they can verify if the position's right but it's never totally right because sometimes when they're in there I'm getting my camera focused on me position but when they're in their character intro they might be like this. It's delicate. As well I give them guidelines about how if the scaling is right. How to compare between two people's heads the size of them and we have some crosshairs on the camera. Usually I try and align the eyes with certain points of those crosshairs so we have at least a stab in the dark about zeroing in on something. Yeah, okay that's great. A question that just came in what resolution were you working with and what a 4K camera with in-frame cropping have helped? Oh hell yeah, we'd love some 4K but again we're running it off of a MacBook we're actually running in 720 so we we really wanted to run in 1080 which is the max that those cameras do but say la vie little MacBook couldn't quite handle four cameras in, four displays out at 1080 so we dance scale to 720 but I feel like it doesn't I mean it would be nice for those big zoom in moments it would be nice to have the resolution there but as it is on the screens I'm not both foot as some people say 4K obviously that would be great so that's why for the live stream assembly I showed photos of that like giant video rack with all the cables coming in and out and the reason I designed that was because we had eight camera feeds we wanted it to be 1080 so he designed a computer he like did the whole like it's running off of Linux he really customized it just to run OBS so that we could do 10 HD feeds in or sorry 8 HD feeds in we're running four displays out plus like streaming so that's a custom piece of hardware that is a robust system for the stage version well there's time there's time yeah I said because I guess a thing about the 4K cameras that even though the resolution would be nicer if you zoomed in you're still not going to have control because your focus point is always still going to be the center of the camera so even if you zoom in on a 4K your resolution might be really great but it still might be there so the thing is like you could have a wider shot that you're zooming in on but you still have to be really specific about what you're zooming in to and in my mind there's a version of the show where we have four like PTZ cameras that are like controlled what's that called robotically manually motorized and I've imagined like a system where I have all these joysticks that I'm like zooming in on people but that would also be completely ridiculous so yeah it's this thing where we want it to look like we have control over the shot but actually we have zero control during the show and it makes me very nervous I mean I can imagine a system that's built custom system built in touch designer but that involves like something where you have to we have like little buttons that you could up or down if somebody happens to miss it and then you just change the focus like ever so slightly right absolutely and you know that's something about the show is like again theater budget I'm not there for the shows we actually don't have a video operator video the computer's just like sitting usually alone somewhere and it's getting triggered over OSC by the sound computer and so it's really like yeah videos completely hands off once I leave except for focusing the cameras at the top of show so that anyways that's just been our approach because it's more cost effective that way so we found a way to do the show within those parameters but certainly if there's somebody there that could be like throughout the show that would be like much easier which is great but I'm also at that point you're like actors sit up straight keep hitting your marks why it's so much easier it's actually a really good point that you brought that up because I was a guy I had forgotten to ask about that because in my mind I remembered you being there for all the shows but of course you're not you just set it up and good luck stage manager you can figure it out that's great get your questions in we've got about 10 more minutes so if anybody in the audience has any questions now would be a good time to ask I wanted to just quickly check in because you went away from the country during the pandemic to do a show in a different country which we at the time were like wow Amelia gets to go and do something outside of Canada what was that like I mean everybody thought I was crazy before it happened I had all these projects and I was like okay yeah I'm not available after this date because I may or may not be in Germany and everybody was like okay but you're not going to Germany so let's schedule a meeting and I was like but what if I do I'm going to Germany and then I did and it was really like very delicate like the window that that show happened was like the planets aligned just to make it happen because you know there were certain things with the board of purple roll and like who's liable if something happens while we're gone and so the chemistry in Munich they took on the liability and they hired us and brought us over we had a very reduced team that went over so we were supposed to have like our TV wasn't there like it was just me on design and production and then we had Chris our director Ruban his assistant Brett was there as playwright Alex was zooming in and then later in like it just wasn't working we had terrible wifi in the rehearsal hall so it was like kind of crazy because at that point you know I hadn't even been to a restaurant since March and here I was like eating in an airport about to get on a flight it was very nerve-wracking at the time but um and at the time Germany was allowing Canadians in and you didn't need to quarantine if you had a negative test um which was wild but anyways you know we all got tested before we went we got tested you could get tested at the airport when you arrived um so we did that um you know I'd have to say before going to Germany I thought like ah Germany they've got it all figured out they're gonna have all the protocols and it's all gonna be super hermetic and beautiful and things were a little bit loosey-goosey I'd say in the protocols you know which we developed like it was they were just starting to produce stuff under COVID as everybody was so you know we figured things out how we could have better ventilation in our rehearsal hall some air filtration what are the mask protocols we're working with performers how do we block the show as you can see that table is huge which is like right for when people need to sit far apart from each other but when they're trying to move around the table they have these very narrow corridors in which to pass each other so how do we block the show with nobody getting too close to each other um you know you figure it out as you go but I'd say I was really nervous when I went over there but because I hadn't done anything or left my house barely or again gone to a restaurant but it got me a bit out of my comfort zone in a way that sort of made me realize like okay we have these protocols and we have this PPE and there are ways to implement those in my life in a way where I don't have to be hiding the whole time and I can be out and careful but out and you know Brett had a rule that he only ate outside he wouldn't sit inside in a restaurant and I think that was a good rule that he set for himself and it did mean that we were like sitting in the rain shivering one evening like huddled around a heater on a patio um but you know there's things like that where you're on tour you need to be going out to restaurants like you know you can't always cook at your Airbnb with a schedule like that but we found ways where we felt comfortable with it as a team we also knew kind of you know that we were protected if we did get sick in certain ways um but it was different for the company in Germany because they have a lot of protections like they they have like you know five-year contracts with the theater they're not freelancers like the performers for example so if they got sick they knew they'd be fine so they were kind of like yeah whatever um but we were like you know as a freelancer I was like ah but it was all good you know and so when I came back from Germany I had to quarantine and Port Pearl paid me for that quarantine time uh an honor honorarium which I really appreciate um so yeah that's how we did it uh and yeah as I said literally we had two performances and theaters got shut down again in Germany so it was like just we just had that window to really get the show up but now the show is part of their repertoire that's how they work there so it's going to be kind of on and off over the next few years they've uh created an online version uh so it's happening still that's great that's really impressive that it all worked out yeah by the hairs of our chinny chins yeah yeah congratulations on doing that and uh yeah um is there anything else we don't have any new questions is there anything else you would like to uh tell the world while you're here um you know stay safe keep fit and have fun body break body break great okay um yeah I don't know I think I've talked about my work on the project yeah that's great what's uh what's next what's next for you um well actually uh I should talk about this L'Assemblée the French Montreal Assembly is being filmed by Radio Canada for broadcast um we're filming it at Touhou which is a circus uh theater circus venue in Montreal uh which is beautiful and huge and it's going to be like in the round and I just can't wait to see this like floating table in the middle of this giant space so that's very soon that's happening um but like I said Montreal we're pretty lucky that we're allowed to still be rehearsing and developing new work so that's certainly giving me a lot of opportunities to still be creating um even if we aren't you know performing it or even streaming those shows we've got a lot ready when those theaters open oh yeah no lack of performances to be had yeah that's great uh well thank you thank you so much for this thank you for for sharing um being here and uh for your lovely light display in behind you that's really great and um thank you thanks that was great this is great and um we'll be I'll I'll see you around awesome thanks for having me and thanks for watching for people at home I really appreciate you tuning in I hope it was interesting thanks uh yeah so thank you uh I'll echo that as well thank you attendees and thank everyone for watching and um if you like this session any of our other sessions please of course uh donate to the ADC if you can a dollar two dollars five dollars are all welcome uh you can do that on our level up website or on the ADC's website designers.ca or on Canada helps.org um and so next up we have uh happening at 5 p.m. tonight we have a another critical conversation where we're talking about live camera in theater so if you've got some thoughts about that it's still time to sign up and come and join us uh tomorrow at 2 p.m. Eastern 11 a.m. Pacific we have performing live uh with three actor creators from across uh North America talking about performing digitally um so that's tomorrow uh you can also check out uh tomorrow evening or resties with the Tarragon theater is happening that information will be on our website is not currently I'm going to go put it on our website after this uh you can go check that out that's that opens tomorrow night and um yeah there's we've also got some new artworks in our digital art gallery so go check that out a couple new workshops that are available on our website for uh Cinema 4D on Saturday another touch designer session next Saturday and Ableton and QLab also next Saturday so go and uh sign up for those so thank you very much for all your time I'll be seeing you bye