 I'm Jay Fidel, and I am sad to say we're talking about coronavirus today. The topic we have defined is the national COVID crisis and madness, and it's getting worse. What a day, everything going on. I hardly had notes, you guys, to tell you all the things we we should discuss. Cynthia Sinclair, Winston Welch, Stephanie Dalton, Tim Apichella. Let's go for it. Let me be very brief. Yesterday, amazing 3100 deaths, more than 911, and it's still going up, and there are still people in this country that deny it and don't want to do masks, including in the state of Idaho, unbelievable in boys, where they are, you know, threatening members of a mask commission to stop any regulation on masks. We're talking about madness here, and it seems to be spreading like a virus. So I guess my question is, Winston, how do you feel about all this? Because I'm getting downright depressed. Depressed about the corona and the state of our nation? Well, it would be hard not to, but you know what, there's a lot of good people doing good things, and however, we're facing, you know, I mean, a lot of it feels like a thimble bailing out the lifeboat, but we have to keep our eyes a little bit set higher on the horizon, because if we look at the daily stuff, this death toll, the news about the CDC, Director Redfield apparently telling his staff to delete emails that had a political tone that's from the White House saying we got to change the message on COVID here. There's a lot out there that is depressing, that can consume you, but there's a lot of, I don't want to say hope on the horizon, but it is hope on the horizon. There are vaccines coming. Why did I know you'd be off, you know, in a relatively optimistic mode? And I'm not that optimistic right now because we're in the thick of it, and if you go outside right now, especially if you're in the mainland, you're just playing kind of Russian roulette out there, and the fact that there's so many people that are still denying this, that still think it's some sort of plotter or whatever that aren't wearing their masks, this is astounding. I think, you know, Tim, I think that what bothers me so much is that he has still, he's still got control. He's got control of the people in Idaho. He's got the Republicans in the Congress. He's got the whole country under control. Whatever mechanism it is, whatever social psychology, strange human flaw in the species, he's got control. And what I worry about, and I like your opinion on, does he have control over the Supreme Court? As I was telling you, you know, you never be sure what a court in this country will do, what strange variables will enter into a decision, even in a cockamamie case like the one that is before it now. What do you think? A lot of questions there, Jay. Good morning. No, he does not have control over the Supreme Court. And if he did have control, it would have been very evident in the nine to zero decision of the Supreme Court challenge in Pennsylvania. They didn't even take the time to write an opinion. They just wrote a 10-word sentence saying, and the last word was denied. This proposal in Texas is even more cockamamie. So I'm not worried about your question about whether or not he has control over the Supreme Court, because three of his appointees also joined in that decision, and it was a nine to zero decision. We're in the dark ages here, as far as I'm concerned for this country. And there's only one person to blame, and that's Donald Trump, because he set the tone. He lied and he denied. And his loyal, brainwashed followers are denying to this day that there is a real disease killing off people. As you said in previous shows, people are dying. They're on ventilators, or it is coming off ventilators, but we need to go on a ventilator denying that they have COVID and denying that it's COVID is the reason why they're going to be placed on a ventilator. This is madness. You're right. This is madness. Well, what about the state of the COVID here? Stephanie, if you look at the map, you see that the red states are all red. They're all red, rife with COVID. The chart is logarithmic, and it has every indication of going further logarithmic. As Tim says, it's really scary to go outside, and rational people are going to just stay inside. But aren't you comforted by the vaccine? Yes, but we've got the parking garage now is a hospital in some places, and we're still 90% full in the hospitals across the nation. I think the number was one out of three hospitals are at least 90% full and without much to go. We're not going to get that vaccine like I thought I was going to make my plane reservation to get out of here next month or February. No, because he turned down the 100,000, the much bigger order opportunity. He made that 100 million, 100 million. Why did that get turned down? Why isn't there more discussion of that? And we're too late. Now everybody else is all lined up, but wait a minute, remember Alex? Alastazard, he's the human services guy, health and human services. He said no problem. No problem. We'll have this all done in a few months. We'll be able to inoculate everybody. How common what he says is different than what you're saying? Well, you know, but that's lying for Trump, because they're all doing whatever he wants. So I'm just like, so the preacher who's still got people coming in by the hundreds, no masks and saying, no, I don't believe in, there is no COVID-19 and the idiot interviewer, I don't know who it was, but she never could ask him, well, then what is it these people have who are in all our hospitals and are not going to take you in for your heart attack? So the other the other point I wanted to make is Jay, you're so right about the power that he still has and the articles I've been reading that have to do with what we need to do first as soon as we get into the new administration is one thing that has to happen is we must contract the time between election and taking over. We're the only country that has this enormous gap of a lame duck. Others have three days or something like that and that's one of the things we've just got to make a change for because this is really taking us down the wormhole. That's a very good point, Stephanie. It's like we need a Constitutional Convention once in a while because our Constitution, we worship our Constitution but it's really ancient and it hasn't been amended on critical points like that. We're not keeping up, we haven't been keeping up. So Cynthia, like we looked to Congress for help, we looked to Congress for relief from COVID, we looked to Congress for money for PPE and for unemployment, but we're not getting, how shall I say this, we're not getting anything. I mean zero. What is going on there? Well, I watched a number of senators and representatives stand at the podium today and go on and on and Willie Gohmert was there for a whole hour even and all we want to talk about is the election. No mention of what's happening with COVID, no mention they got all the time in the world to make time to go out there and make these big speeches about how Trump is being robbed yet they don't have five minutes to meet and get some good solid relief out to the American people. To me that is criminal. You say they don't have five minutes but is it a question of time or is it a question of you know loyalty to the to our fearless leader? It's a mid question of loyalty and that's sort of my point was I didn't make it clear enough I guess. It seems like they've got all kinds of time to support him and no time to support the American people and I guess that's what I was trying to say. Now one of the things that came up Cynthia was I guess it was in the defense spending bill. He said he was going to veto it. It may be veto proof depending on you know how much pressure there is on Congress. Unless they pulled out the provision or rather included a provision providing protection for employers against suits by employees. The liability provision there. He's insisting on that and so is Mitch McConnell. What are your thoughts on the pros and cons and and the politics of that provision? Well you can just look back to the meat packing plants that he forced to go back to work. When they were not prepared to do it safely he did not care about that. So he doesn't want anything to come back on those companies or any of the other companies that are Republican run that forced their workers to go back to work and and I think that's just wrong because we should be putting our health first not our pocket books and so that just bothers me a lot. You know you know what occurs to me just hearing your thoughts about that is that if I sue a given meat packing company the defense of that meat packing company is well that they had passed from the administration. The administration was either talking to them publicly or privately and saying it's okay it's more important that you bring your people back and have them continue working on the on the production line and that means okay the administration is subject to political attack, political vulnerability. So I think what McConnell and Trump are doing is more than just a theoretical thing about protecting employers their constituents big companies from liability to employees it's protecting Trump and McConnell and Congress and the Republicans from getting blamed in every single suit because that's what the employer is going to do right? Absolutely because they can because if the employee sues the employer the employer can turn around directly and go to the Trump administration and say well they made us go back so of course they're protecting themselves as they're always. Right you know every single suit would be met with that. So you know you know Winston it's about fear a lot of reporters that we read talk about fear I mean it goes back to Ann Applebaum in the Atlantic 90 days ago with her comparison of this in Eastern Europe in the 40s and there are various reasons why people are complicit with what Trump is doing but you know what do you think is operating to make the country so skewed now even at a time when he's going to be probably out of office why are people still faithful to him? I do not know I cannot understand it and I think we're going to be spending the rest of our lives and beyond in trying to understand this effect and the hypnotism that Donald Trump has had but I think it's it may be helpful to try and google why I love Donald Trump or why Trump has my support or something along those or the best things Donald Trump has done for this nation or something along those lines so you can try and at least delve into the mindset there ignoring all of the other reality to try and understand how he has the support and when we talked about the red or the blue states there are no red or blue states we're all purple even here in Hawaii it was 30 percent supported Donald Trump in this last election so we're shades of this but maybe it is it it's a loss of a way of life it's nostalgia it's whatever it is I don't know what it is because I can't wrap my head around it even when I'm presented with okay this is what he's done it just doesn't it's not logical it's maybe there's some strange emotional appeal that goes right to the very back of your your reptilian brain I could understand that but our nation is not better than it was four years ago by any stretch of the imagination what's really a hard question for you Winston well what what's real though I just want to point out to viewers is that what I find a little bit shocking we you know we and I do have I have said let's follow the CDC let's follow Dr. Fauci let's follow Debra Burks and our state health folks they're all kind of overwhelmed with this the CDC for the first time this week just said wear mask indoors this is insane after a year of this pandemic but Dr. Burks she's she's breaking with this she said this is not just the worst public health event this is the worst event this country will face not just from a public health side on Meet the Prestus last Sunday you know so there are there are people here that are saying reality as it stands they're just being crowded out from everything else I do I sort of really good that I'm forwarding to people that still believe in Donald Trump and everybody else an article in The Atlantic what New York doctors know how bad the pandemic can get and that it's the title those headlines don't capture the horror we saw because this is not a real it's not real for people somehow they need to personalize this Washington Post had what seven ICU nurses want you to know about the battle against COVID-19 very personal stories from these folks on the front lines that make this real that can help us understand whatever the noise and drama is surrounding Donald Trump we are facing a mass pandemic where 3,000 people a day are dying and soon it's going to be five and we're looking at a half a million people dying from this thing and still you have people denying that it exists or that it's spread by anything we got to go back to what I said a lot as a personal responsibility don't go out wear your mask wash your hands if you have to go out exercise extreme care deny all people and I'm having a tattoo made from my left arm I want to write no tattoos that's personal service you're risking yourself and the tattoo artist we got to get them so Tim I'm going to ask you this Tim but you know when when is the bubble going to break this is also a hard question when is the bubble going to break on this I mean is do we see a change among the Republicans among the the conservatives in the country are they are they getting wise to it or are they just continuing and doubling down and up under the hip not expelled no matter what now some people say that when you know the electoral votes are counted which is next Monday that ought to be a new kind if it works the way they say it ought to be a new national holiday I think if they're when they're counted and and Biden is shown to be the hands down winner then Trump's bubble will burst you agree with that not entirely I do agree with your theory that you've mentioned in weeks past on my show that once he is away from the bully pulpit a lot of his followers will peel off and a lot of the intimidation goes with it the intimidation to all the Republican senators that are mortally fearful that he's going to say something bad about them so that their constituents and their districts are going to think badly of them and they'll be primaried out I think that goes away and once that intimidation factor goes away senators will then discover their little backbone so they don't look like they've been you know scared little sheep and they'll start speaking out I think that happens after January 20th and I think it'll be slow and coming thank God we have five or six GOP senators that have already done that they've taken that first step and my hat's off to them and I just wish it was a little bit earlier and I think my hat really goes off to Mitt Romney because he had the fortitude and the guts to also vote during the the um impeachment impeachment thank you that's the word I was looking for and we almost forgot about that didn't we no one else had that and you know he did well he did well for the nation yeah but what about these Republican governors we were talking about it earlier you know the 17 of them and sort of taking it by the horns them all by themselves regardless of how people voted and trying to turn over the whole national election in this cockamamie case we talked about I mean what what kind of crazy loyalty is that and is that going to stop is that going to keep is the Republican party and these governors continue are they going to continue to be infected with alternative truth well what's good I don't think they're governors or the Attorney generals of those states and what scares me about that is they are the top cop for their state and they are the you know the protectors of laws and then they're the ones that you know make sure that justice prevails so that scares me but what doesn't scare me is that those are amicus briefs and you know I Jay you know as well as I do as an amicus brief is is a statement it's a symbol it's not really an earnest law challenge yeah it's not skin in the game you're right well hold on to that thought okay Stephanie so you like parties they had a party with several hundred people in the White House yesterday they called it a Hanukkah party I disavow all connection to that and and they all came on Trump's explicit or implicit advice not to wear masks and they hung around kissing each other what kind of insanity is that it keeps on happening and by the way you should also mention in your answer that your friend I say is your friend because I know he's not my friend Rudy Giuliani okay had had that Regeneron therapy and was out of the hospital in like two days unbelievable just like Trump cannot can you reserve some of that Regeneron for me too we better start buying it now you know but hopefully the vaccine will keep us away from it but I mean I want to get real I want to go mafia and I want to talk social science this guy is the reinforcer and he is in position to reinforce out of the donations he's getting from people and he's able to give positive reinforcement to those that are big positive reinforcement Dr. Birx getting up there and saying those things on Sunday TV oh yo ho ho hum okay but he's the reinforcer because he's got positive reinforcement all that money coming in all the power pieces that he can give people and they believe it'll go beyond the election beyond the inauguration obviously they believe that okay because that's what's holding them firm but even more importantly he has the negative reinforcers okay called punishment so he's and he has no problem distributing any of that and that is what's keeping people in line and that is not anything all of this other stuff is beside the point he's in control and he's the reinforcer and he has the goods to do it at this point so he needs to not have those goods anymore and get out of the power and hopefully out of the money because he's going to be sued etc but people are terrified because I can imagine remember we've talked about this before all you need is a call from somebody about your kid might be having an accident you know oh yeah we we should explore what happened more of what happened in Idaho because that you know I don't know if you guys saw the footage of the zoom show where all these commissioners on a mask mask regulation commission were in a meeting and one after the other they were getting text messages that their home their home was in battle Cynthia and I just wonder what that what that shows us what that tells us I mean about about the way our American democracy is and they and the meeting broke up because they all went home to take care of their spouses and children this is fantastic that people would not only disagree about COVID and disagree about masks and and like Winston's tattoo and all that oh I'm sorry it was my tattoo thank you but they would actually actually parade outside your house and threaten public officials so what is what does that tell us you know I guess my question Cynthia is this going to happen again because it shows it shows such hubris that it may very well happen again I think it will absolutely happen again I think it's going to be ramped up after the 14th once we provided that the electors follow the popular vote anyway then it's going to happen and even if they don't it may happen that the Democrats decide to go crazy too hopefully not but what else are we supposed to do right what happened with that woman when I heard her that the fear in her voice when she said my 12 year old is home alone and they are pounding and on the door and pounding at my house banging on the door while the meeting's going on if these people know that they are there to protest against a meeting that is going on why aren't they at the meeting why are they at the people's homes when they know the people are at the meeting you know it was to just wake up the meeting which worked but so there was never a vote that was taken this is just about masks you can imagine if these people are going to get this outrageous and threatening is the word these aren't protests these are threatening I don't even know what to call them but they are all full of threats with gun toting people so this isn't just a bunch of people sitting around singing kumbaya we want peace this that's not what's happening these are angry violent people that are threatening homes they're threatening secretaries of state they're threatening and now about governors governors yes it's it's very scary to me that this kind of stuff is being labeled protest so that it's allowed to continue because I think it's a very big mistake and it's a misnomer that they're calling it a protest yeah Winston you know did you see Trump's tweet this morning it was a one word tweet I don't know if anybody caught it fairly recently and it was something like and I don't remember the exact word but the the connotation was turn the election over turn everything over oh yeah later something like that you know yeah and you know I mean I think it's getting worse in the sense that he's getting wilder and people are following him and the kinds of statements he is making um those statements speak of completely turning the government over it's a revolution in place it's a revolution by by a sitting president what can we do about this I mean I know that we here we do our job we talk about it but what what can the country do when he's sending out tweets and people in Idaho and was it Michigan responding to those dog whistles with near violence and maybe soon real violence what can we do when he sends out a tweet that says turn the government over well we still are ostensibly a nation of laws we still are a democracy we still have very robust structures in place granted our system has taken a beating these last four years on on so many levels and this is this will be donald trump's legacy is he's delegitimized the process of of a proper grievance he just says if it's not my way it's the highway rather than what we've been used to for the last you know 50 100 200 years of going and having a reason discourse what can we do what we can do is we can educate ourselves educate others we have to remember also where this is happening now it's going to be scattered everywhere there's sort of been a I guess a mass sociopathism released in our society where it says do anything say anything but this organized sort of thing where they're going to people's houses like this that needs a law enforcement response and hopefully the law enforcement isn't part of the problem and I don't think that it is but you have to remember the anfrank memorial in Boise was defaced with swastika stickers that said we are everywhere this was this week we got swastika here in Honolulu Winston in Honolulu we're okay you know what was walking around my neighborhood the other day I saw three campaign stickers still one for Trump Trump for Hawaii Hawaii for Trump one for Biden Harris and then one other one was Black Lives Matter that was three out of the entire you know when I was walking for an hour so we're hopefully here in Hawaii we're more sane because we realize we've all got to get along there's nowhere else for us to go Hawaii is a different case now if you're living in Idaho what can we do what can we do you know what we got to hold we just have to hold a consciousness that we're going to get through this as things develop or if they develop they need to be met appropriately by our system and I think our system is in place it's going now we have Donald Trump who is completely unhinged and he might call out his troops any day now but the mass majority of people even if they believe the election is stolen they're not going to follow the Arizona GOP's call are you ready to die for this man I think they're just be like you know not really I'd rather just go shopping or I'll wait till after I get my vaccine and then that was one of the tweets yeah are you ready to die for this man it was one of the tweets and the answer is yes because COVID is running wild and there is no so let me let me go to Tim on the COVID issue there you know Tim one of the things that we we absolutely need to have is enough people vaccinated so that we have you know community immunity but the number of people who say they don't want a vaccination in this country is overall something like 40% is higher for men is certainly way higher for Republicans but something over 40% of the people in this country cross the board don't want to be vaccinated it's better than it was a couple of months ago but it's still over 40% and this real question as to whether even if we have all the vaccine we want which not at all clear not clear at all to me that we won't we won't have enough people taking it to really stop the infection what are your thoughts about that stopping the infection is going to be around for a while I mean it's not going to be stopped because of the exact thing you're bringing up but those who do get vaccinated they'll be protected they start leaving the normal life again and I think once that starts happening the anti-vaxxers you know the ones that believe what Donald Trump tells them what to believe they'll start peeling off and they'll start doing it too because they want their life to get normal but the problem the problem is that between the time you start vaccinating and the time you vaccinate to say the 60% a lot of that 60% is going to get sick because the other ones aren't doing it you know what I mean so what you have is a slow roll here and the possibility of large numbers of infection continuing true I think you're right that's why I think COVID will be around the world for years to come it's not a pandemic it's an endemic and I think it's going to be part of our daily life for years and years to come and again I think that I think people are going to peel off they may say they don't want to take the vaccine they're going to take the vaccine sooner or later and if it's not by their own their own judgment then Jay it'll probably be say someone from an employment site that's their employer saying I'm sorry if you want to come work for me you're going to have to take the vaccine there you go that will change it or if the school say if you want to bring your kids in I'm sorry you're going to have to show proof of vaccine it'll come down to social pressure rather than someone's individual perception of freedom and what freedom means to them right and as Trump fades into the you know the past he's not going to have control over those people they're going to be more affected by the school that says your kid can't come without a shot record card so I want to go a little technology with you Stephanie and the remaining moments you know one very interesting story that came up in the news yesterday was about Boston and Boston has a way of determining community spread before it happens how do they do that with this is a Rachel Maddow story how do they do that with wastewater they check the wastewater for the virus so what we have is emerging technologies that will help in a community way that we had not anticipated what are your thoughts about that is that going to work are we going to have other things like that why isn't it already in place because have already done this okay and the other thing so some colleges have test their dorms and as soon as they see it they they deal with the dorm another thing Honolulu dealt with this and I heard from the medical people out here because when they closed the beaches that was where people were starting I mean they closed the restrooms or turned off the water or something then all these people are going to the beaches to take care of business and then it turns out that the experiment or whatever is more efficient in carrying COVID than is saliva or coffee and so people that's one of the reasons they closed all the beaches because they were going to the beaches and polluting the beaches and you could walk through there and be in trouble so anyway my point is that why isn't this already in place because it is it is also working at other places other than Boston and I was a little shocked that you know it's been so late coming up and that Rachel was talking about this as if it's only one instance so I think all of us ought to have a tap on wherever we are and whatever bodies we're using we need to do something about because we could take care of business that way and also I just want to say we can start listing okay hantavirus ebola the plague okay the smallpox polio I mean they're gone they are gone this will be gone too once America can get its act together okay ebola was gone in three months and that was a biden and of course it was obama thing so it's going away okay it's gone away but you know the recognition here the underlying recognition is that viruses are with us forever it's part of the planet and if it isn't if it isn't this one it'll be something else you know Cynthia I have so many questions left but we have a viewer question and a viewer question you know it takes priority and you are the lucky recipient of this viewer question which is not an easy question either are you ready I'm ready okay do you honestly believe you're perfect for this question do you honestly believe that our vote was counted correctly even with all of the evidence that has been presented if there is a question of voting fraud don't you believe it has to be looked into and we don't know whether the person asking this question is talking about fraud by the republicans or fraud by the democrats so you can you can answer it any way you wish in a perfect world I would say we're going to redo the election point blank hand counted I mean hand marked paper ballots hand counted period and it is the only way to really solve this issue is that realistic no not even at all I have sat down and I read the entire thing that Texas that Ken Paxton put out right entire case that he's put together there are so many fraudulent claims in this case that I read that it just absolutely blows me away and two of the like major points that made me go this thing is a joke was when and number 10 and 11 some mathematician comes out and says well there's just no factual way that the percentages could have gone there's only a 1% chance that Biden could have actually made up that much ground and succeeded in going over but Trump's votes no he didn't take it well they may be but they didn't take into account that there's you know this pandemic is going on and that so they're also claiming that all these other four states they they didn't go through the process of allowing mail-in voting the correct way which is not true because they did the legislature signed off in all of those well let me add this thought and that is you know we we can't tell from the question whether the person is asking about fraud by the Republicans or fraud by the Democrats but let me add I don't think we give enough attention to what the Republicans have done in terms of suppressing votes on a racial basis in terms of undoing the post office which is not yet fully restored even at Christmas in terms of the gerrymandering I mean I could go on and on in the intimidation you know is that not fraud is that not a violation of our voting system and our Constitution everybody talks about you know the Republicans talk about you know so what I call it it's projection right in psychology is projecting you project your own violations onto the other guy and you focus the attention on him in fact the big fraud here and it's already demonstrated is the Republican fraud on our Constitution on our electorate and I don't think we can ever forget that okay we're out of time Tim but I want to go to you for one last thing you know Winston mentioned that this the frontline workers that we really care about the health workers and in fact tonight at five o'clock you know we're having our annual holiday party an awards ceremony and one of the awards is going to Scott Gallagher who is the director of the MIC unit at Queens Medical Center and those guys in Hawaii are the go-to guys for COVID they have three floors of that hospital dedicated to COVID cases and he's the guy that directs it and it's very touching to hear his remarks and how he feels about it so we gave him a community service award and the MICU and all the people in it and I really think that was a very good award the other award that I want to mention is the award that's going to you Tim so I wanted I wanted you thanks Jay you're putting me on the spot I intended to do that for the whole show and now we're here how about a round of applause for Tim yay thank you thank you very much I appreciate it I'm honored and I appreciate it thank you your comments then about it I think I did a little two minute commentary for the show tonight so I'll leave it at that I'll let my word speak later on tonight okay and I'll give you a short praisey on that is that Tim is a man of courage he recognizes the risks and he expresses the courage and well Jay now you're forcing me out of my corner here these shows don't exist unless we all of us as guests have courage and it's not easy for us and it's not easy to take that position and God bless everyone on this show and and God bless all the hosts that stand up and and and speak truth to power and that's what it takes from community to community from city to city from state to state to stand up and and as I say tonight question authority always no matter what site it's on question authority all right man God bless you God bless us all in these difficult times Tim Epicella Winston Welch Stephanie Dalton Cynthia Sinclair you guys are the best thank you so much see you next time