 from UK it's battling jet lag um his slide is about a huge topic condensed into say 30 40 minutes so if you don't get anything feel free to engage him afterwards it's going to be around so Adrian thank you hi John I feel like that came with a heavy disclaimer hopefully my presentation is better than John assumes it will be he just he just seen first time at jet lag they've been for the last couple of days so he's vexed the worst but yeah I'm Adrian McShane I work for Human Made I don't know if anybody's heard of Human Made but we're an agency we're not really based anywhere we're a distributed company we've got people based all over the world reasonably high concentration in the UK but we have also a number of core WordPress contributors work within the agency as well and the type of work we have is pretty varied but we do work for quite a lot of big publishers companies who produce a lot of content they're not publishers but we do enterprise WordPress essentially and we're also a partner with Automatics VIP platform if you don't know then they do hosting and development for again quite big enterprise clients and today we're talking not so much about WordPress in a way it's more about publishing as a whole and how that's applicable to WordPress and when you get to a certain scale of people like how WordPress tends to fit into that ecosystem and potentially where WordPress may continue to evolve in the future so big brands love WordPress these are probably all people that Human Made work with I guess it's actually still this slide for one of my colleagues let's start again and they all use all of these use WordPress I think they probably all VIP clients as well they use it as part of the solution some use it as their their complete publishing solution some some of them it provides a part of it it's probably a big part of their front-end delivery for digital and from what I know they're all quite happy with what WordPress does for them and just a few examples I'm sure some of you may know the New York Times use it they don't use it for their core offering they have a bespoke CMS that covers quite a lot of it but they use it for a lot of their subsites and sort of microsites of which there are many I think they have a I'm not sure if they're multi-site based actually but I know they've got many many sites that are all based off one WordPress offering and a project that I worked on relatively recently the Sun recently we launched on WordPress they came from an enterprise solution and ported over to WordPress relatively recently and they did quite a lot of work on workflow which we'll get into a little bit later this is Ted and just an example this slide I feel like this slide probably needs a disclaimer I've shown this to a few people so far and I've tried to explain it and they've all looked at me very blankly and it's the kind of thing that like an information architect would love but for everyone else it's kind of doesn't make a huge amount of sense but I'll try I'll try to explain it so on the first column so this is information was in a large publisher kind of going from right to left or left to right and what we're standing and CMS one typically represents print systems probably not WordPress something that's probably paid for and it encompasses a lot of enterprise great things you know publishers are quite mature companies you know they've been new publishing for 120 years they've got lots of people lots of workflow they deal with lots of different sort of people with different roles and they manage media in different ways etc and a lot of these print systems actually are pretty good at that you know the their enterprise solutions they cater for all these sort of types of integrations and they also handle this sort of sort of waterfall or sort of multidirectional flow of content and this example it's actually based on a on a on a CMS it'll not be an end that I worked with in recent times but this CMS it has like a non-channel which is kind of where content starts and it's saying that it might come from a wire or or journalists submissions or something that comes from from some source and it hasn't been determined where it's going to go next it just sits in a pool of collections and it's been organized kind of at that first part of what a publisher does and but it's ready to go probably to print next some people are web first it's not I don't know how I don't know what the percentage is but I would imagine still a fair percentage of larger publishers are still print first they're still print minded they talk about digital and they want to be digital need no digital's future but print is still makes them more money because you get better returns on advertising you know they've still although it's a degrading audience they still have large audiences typically and obviously different pair of country everybody's got different growth patterns etc but yeah for quite a few print is still really important and within print you also have it's probably this system is probably going to handle print it's going to go from here to a print system and to the printers and I've had the opportunity in the past to visit the the print operation and where they actually do all this work and it's it's very impressive you kind of think that's the past and you know we worry about you know websites typically within audience like this but print you can kind of see those years of maturity kind of sitting there it's a very tight ship and they can't make a mistake they can't lose money they have to stop the presses you know they lose untold amounts restarting etc you've got big belts to go around massive buildings that run about 40 miles an hour and they splice paper in without losing they only lose about this much paper on a run like it's all these things go on and for me it's it's it was hugely impressive and within these types of cms is they some some of them use I mean I can mention maybe adobe for example I know sometimes either offer the solution or become part of it and because within print uh the content and the layout and the presentations user kind of all go together within web we tend to be a little bit more basic we have more or less one output or one article page in one section page and we just throw content at it and it comes out the same way to the consumer within print actually sometimes the layouts can be much more advanced they want things to be all different sizes across it and they've got tools to allow them to do that and magazines obviously even more so because it's very much a visual exercise and it's kind of how it looks first and then content goes on top of that etc so all those tools tend to be there um and then you'll you'll flow potentially from the top or from print uh to web to tablet mobile publication x all these different channels kind of get snapped off from here uh some content only exists in web because uh it is content that uh you know for some publications their print voice is very different to their digital voice things that they'll put in the web sphere just will never make it to print because it's kind of throw away or it'll only be relevant for that hour and it's going to instantly be discarded that type of thing um and uh yeah you just get a different editorial voice sometimes these all these three go together you know in a responsive world but quite a lot of publishers still do uh big fairly big dedicated uh operations where they have teams of 20 or 30 people um in tablet and mobile even bigger for web even bigger again for print you know you're dealing with hundreds of people um across managing and pushing all this content through this flow um and the second volume is kind of where that content goes next typically as it moves a little bit closer to us a little bit closer to what we're doing within digital itself and it ranges anywhere from like copying pasting content from this system they don't want to either the integration isn't very good or or it's just easier for them to move content to the left so you'll have your your uh digital CMS sitting over here kind of open and they'll go into their print cms and they'll just copy stuff across and then they'll start changing it within it um and then you know you'll you'll deal with actual integrations which is Paul which might be an rss feed that uh this system opens up and then your your downstream system can pull stuff out and make it ready and available for them to then take it into a into like home pages or article pages whatever uh push which has become uh more common when they try to replace some of these legacy systems i don't know if any of you've heard of pub sub hubbub pretty sure it's pub sub hubbub uh which is a a google protocol that just is a way to uh subscribe to something that wants to push content it's like a way to have instant almost instant recognition of a piece of jason or or xml and being able to push that really quickly between these two systems without any lag or anything and in my experience there's quite a lot of legacy glue in there as well there's a lot of bespoke things that have been built over time that do parts of these other responsibilities but yeah it can be quite a big piece and it all has to be managed and you get you know uh big outheed compartments doing etc and then within the the cms uh column which we're getting a little bit closer to wordpress finally um you've got uh some used uh paid for offerings obviously i mentioned it will be previously um misinic uh method uh there's a number of uh licensed uh uh uh cms is um that do they i don't know if there's that many that are that from that common or feel the same as wordpress i think they tend to be more uh although wordpress has become a cms these very much are a cms and you just get a different tool set within them um and then open source obviously where where wordpress would come in um we're seeing well i'll get into that a little bit later uh and then bespoke solutions like this which might be uh kind of mingled and along with your paid and open source offerings or they might be things in their own right but some people say uh i don't know if you've heard of chorus uh that the verge use within their overall lsb nation all those guys and there's a number of other examples as well they spend a lot of time and effort creating something new they say oh you know these all these things all these tools are fine but they just don't are they're not fast enough or they don't do and everybody loves having a goal at creating another cms um and i think some use it almost as a uh a hiring vehicle as well you know if you invest time in your tooling and you're really kind of uh on the face of it passionate about creating the best experience for writers i think it does actually attract the people that you want to hire within that ecosystem um and it's kind of a secondary benefit of doing something like that but i definitely see that type of thing happening um and then our our last integration which is kind of how it gets from there to start starting to get to the actual person who's consuming that content and within that uh we might be transforming content we might be saying okay we've created something for web but it also needs to go to our mobile application and our mobile application can only read jason therefore we need to transform uh parts of what we've done into something else and it can go to those jason can go to a file system or to an api or something like that and and once it is transformed uh our application or or or microsite or something else can can read that content um poll which might be just rss for for consumers a lot of people have kind of abandoned css because not that many people use rss readers anymore um but for the last point for syndication you end up with like quite there's still quite a lot of bespoke uh rss etc that you'll never see um that's used to for publishers to interact with um other other publishers because they're syndicated in front and to a wider network or maybe for part of our marketing exercise whatever but there's kind of a technical reason to syndicate and and posh as well where you would just want to get that content as quickly as possible to a consumer and pushes kind of a technical mechanism to do that and then in the very last you've got like you know your cds and obviously amazon have an offering within that i would have to mention them here and uh and files it's become more common for uh and the clients that we work with actually and as well as into wordpress is fine you've got wordpress um but a lot of the bigger publishers or uh potency banks or or some or people who uh typically uh serve a lot of content they want to deliver to their customer as fast as they possibly can they want it to be secure and a lot of them have kind of abandoned web based web server based applications doing that it's like it's a bit slow it takes a second or two to render but if you put it if you flatten that and put it straight back into flat html and css and gs etc um and put it into uh maybe a cdn it supports like a file system and or s3 obviously is a well-known one um then there's nothing to render you don't have php rendering stuff you just have something it's ready to ship directly to a browser into a user um and more and more seem to be opting for that it's it feels a bit backwards because we were kind of creating static html etc 10 years ago it feels like it's all gone a little bit full circle and obviously the the web based solution will always exist but uh yeah it's funny at scale it kind of it becomes a little bit less uh less modern in some ways and some solutions still use like origin for want a better word but uh having probably a caching strategy in some place in place within wordpress where you're not like just rendering every time you come make a request for a page um but you are um uh probably have a relatively light touch hung on cdn maybe or something like that um the bigger publishers tend to shy away from that because they're they're nervous of security and things like that but yeah that's a i did did give a disclaimer for this slide hopefully that was kind of made halfway sense but if not you can tell me afterwards um and one thing i thought would be worth mentioning a lot it kind of comes back to the print thing i think there's still it's still a mere it's still an emerging thing up to your point but uh quite a lot of publishers like editions uh with the web it's typically or it has been uh the last one here which is the timeline you know the the latest content comes first so you you publish something just now and you want to get that out and it'll go to the top of the list and they'll say okay people really will read that and it'll just push down as new content comes in um quite a lot of publishers um still think in a print way you know they're not probably digitally mind is the wrong word but um they actually like the fact that they're editors they create content they create collections they create uh an overall reading experience and includes it specifically that okay this is our big story and our big story should be at the top like for four hours or nine hours depending on how big the story is and it should only move when i say so it doesn't it doesn't they don't want it to be free for all set because some content is never really important enough to make it that top part and it's not something that wordpress does naturally it kind of wants to be a timeline based thing but obviously it's completely possible and it's partly it comes into page builders kind of can do it and we see we've seen kind of a rise of those you've got like sort of a halfway house which is kind of collection management we're okay timelines there but you'll create widgets or rely on a third party um that takes your content and then surfaces them into sidebars and uh but blocks of content in the middle and things like that um and uh there's plugins such as like zoningator um that allows you to within wordpress to create little collections of ordered content that you can place however you like um and just spend a second on on a few workflows so and this is relevant within wordpress we would map to the equivalent of roles you know we have roles in wordpress it goes from a contributor to author to editor to admin to super admin and when you map those to people it doesn't quite match to publishing you know a lot of people need to be almost administrators it kind of jumps quite quickly because they need almost a complete tool set but they shouldn't have a complete complete tool set because they shouldn't be self-publishing right to the front because an editor will be very annoyed if they do so but the type of people you get uh within this chain is it kind of starts out and that's sort of wire reporters thing you've got some sort of uh story that's come in somehow to the top um a sub editor some of these roles kind of reverse a little bit but some a sub editor may be the one responsible for picking up that uh editor that they can in some way getting it ready for whatever uh section or uh medium that they are responsible for uh they'll push you to a section editor which actually make a choice about whether it it belongs in their section and and possibly do some more edit to it or uh push it back up the chain if it's not quite ready uh a deputy editor who will then start shouting it's probably the last two um and tell them that they've done a terrible job and it's not fit for print and possibly push it back down the chain again they do shout a lot well the further up each chain and publishing you get the more shouty and they curse a lot as well that they're kind of angry people i like them they're really good fun but yeah it's working in and publishing can be quite fraught at times um and then you'll have an overall editor which for the most part won't have a final say he'll usually get involved uh posthumously if something goes wrong or they feel a story isn't shoot isn't as prominent as should be they'll get stuck into the fray and make decisions and act as publishers do and then the the things that left is kind of a repeat of partly what was on the previous slide but uh within print you've got an edition based uh they can be more particularly about layout which you mentioned a web uh which uh sometimes starts in print but it can be unique confidence the web it's updated through the day uh mobile there's a lot of responsive sites uh but uh there are a lot of publishers that do unique layouts and and specifically create content for mobile and that might be to an app or uh there's still m dots around uh although a say responsive is kind of taken over in that year but they do exist um and within tablets kind of hanging in there a lot of a lot of publishers have kind of lost interest in tablet and not so much for subscription based services and people who offer paywalls etc and because actually tablets the closest you get to print um I previously worked for uh The Times newspaper uh in the UK um which are one of the bigger kind of paywall based uh uh publishers out there and they they love their tablet solution they very much offer a fully curated design uh they put a huge amount of investment into making tablet and and they charge accordingly for that it's it's the it's the backbone of their digital subscription model um and it's a good experience well I'm a bit biased because I helped build it but um and uh this is is this something that I can't imagine word press here but image workflow in another fairly big area uh what publishers need to do is part of an image workflow is they need to source the images lots of images come in from all sorts of different sources like getty or off-wire or more more recently like social media etc somebody needs to thin that out and get all of that content into a fit state for for a printer for a web or whatever that might be um and uh they might need to pay for that content it's coming from getty it might have a specific license applied to they it's cut into all sorts of tiers uh for web they typically a lot of publishers don't pay even though they should because there's no actual mechanism for them to track it properly because partly because they might be using something like word press and word press doesn't have support for something like that it's very hard to to monitor that usage it just gets sent out um so a lot of them will pay for a kind of almost like global licenses where they can put out any images you want but it's it's beneficial for them to able to track and invoice all those things completely apical print um but they would they would like to do it in web 2 it's just sometimes the tool set can't do it um and you've got different teams in that as well you've got like uh usually a picture desk uh who does this all all this organizing and pushing it up to copy editors and saying a copy editor will write a rant email to a uh uh a picture desk saying that you know the the image that they have on the home page isn't right and we need to get a better one and they'll go off and they'll create a set of options and uh and there's there's there's a lot of uh specific platforms uh specifically around this you know that there's cms's for images if you like um can't think of the top of my head i've used quite a few but i can't think of their name um and but some people just uh might use email you know they'll fire emails around between these pictured editors and copy editors and stuff and they'll take that attachment upload directly into your cms it might be wordpress um or a lot of people use both they'll have this thing for managing it but ultimately they'll use something a little bit more dependable in an arcade like email um to be able to push these assets around and get them into uh said platform um and uh they also do things like uh you know producing composite images uh again within wordpress you know you've you've got some editing tools in there uh like cropping and uh some basic image enhancement things uh and and they're good um but they typically won't fit uh publishers use case you know that they'll usually have adobe open somewhere uh photoshop and they'll have to actively do some work on on every image um as they come come composites being one of those um but they would love for that to be in wordpress they would love not to have to jump out because they have to pay people to do it and all all these operations want to slim down but but they can't because the nature of the businesses they want to produce as good a product as they can um and what wordpress does right now is allows you to upload images there's kind of a basic relatively basic search there i say basic is kind of unfair to it but uh again when you see what a publisher actually needs at scale um they if you've got a uh a standard wordpress gallery workflow and there's literally hundreds of images coming in possibly over the hour or over the day um trying to find it within that thumbnail gallery is quite hard and uh there's no they can't really salvage the system from that and so they come up with all sort of creative ways of managing it but but yeah you can't i say you can't but it's quite difficult to use wordpress to manage management as as they these guys do at scale um and uh yeah i say there's cropping there and they all use cropping within wordpress we've had success with that but they'll usually not use the out-of-the-box cropping they'll use set plugin to do that for them um and uh yeah and then because they didn't want to bore everyone i could kind of go into the same level of detail for all these as well but i want because it'll i'll be here all night but uh video kind of similar to to uh to images in a way but uh typically they're not most people in the right way shy away from building their own uh video workflow system uh every uh like uh uala or bright cove are some of the uh some of the third parties that do this as a business and they have their cms specifically for for managing video and again where wordpress ties in is fine you've got this management but then you need to get it into wordpress somehow um some people want to get a short code and then that short code for a given video then gets ready on the front end um some people actually import all of those videos into a custom gallery type thing so they can actually work with those uala videos directly within the cms and without having to kind of have the two systems open so it allows kind of tidy uh transitioning of data uh advertising marketing uh third party apps just that picture that i had before just gets bigger and bigger like you just all of these have the same if not bigger types of systems and workflows that are that are just as big as that kind of first slide and they all have their own workflows and everything else and it's just a wider ecosystem but the end result is it goes into wordpress one way or another you know all these different things that all happen in all different ways and but wordpress kind of models along and takes all of it and gets it together to be able to actually publish the website but it's it's just much bigger than that um and i'm just going to spend a lot of i've got some things around around the type of tools actually in wordpress that facilitate some of these things uh so there's one of the benefits obviously of wordpress is a huge ecosystem of of integrations and apps for all better word uh within within publishing it becomes a much smaller list most uh us as developer a development agency typically shy away from just an e-plug and we don't we don't typically take things just off wpr and hope that they're okay you know we over time we've collected a subset of the right tool for the right job for seo we might have three plugins that you would kind of we would rely on and turn to something we built for ourselves or for analytics you know there's there's x amount of plugins it's kind of a finite subset of that ecosystem um that we that we use um but yeah here's some some ones you probably would have heard of before we've got one for video here obviously youtube that you know for embedding uh twitter uh chartbeat for for uh for analytics and making better decisions about content etc um and uh this is kind of a a trend item but uh and it ties to the addition thing partly but we see a lot of publishers asking for layout management um and it kind of comes back to that collection thing before but they want moral control over the end result the end product they want it to look a certain way and uh they don't want to just have it in a relatively stale kind of uh uh free for all and uh having page builders and layout managers etc uh they see is the answer to that they're hard to build i don't think there's any de facto way of doing it at least not yet um and uh we recently and i was involved in this one for the sun we ended up kind of building our own uh based on specifically to their requirements and it was a wasiwag uh we actually built it kind of in customizer was in wordpress but we didn't use a lot of customizer it was just a way of uh kind of housing our our our tool um and it's uh um i think it's angler based um and uh it allows you to sort of dynamically build a preset grid and layout so they can choose different types of layouts this one is very simple it's just one big grid but you could have that followed by four more and ten more and an advert etc and you can manage all that and this is all of the content that's in wordpress available to see select and click into your sort of canvas um and it allows you to uh handle images you can take images specifically and put it in play i mean this this gift shows you actually editing the content in line it does all those type of things and it works really well and and the editor is really happy with it um and uh it was uh yeah it was it was tough i think it was times when they almost wanted to make it simpler than it was it was it was a pretty tough undertaking but what we did it but um and but the end result is uh under the hood of this is uh it actually generates jason and then within php we we render that instruction that jason gives us to to output that to the front end so it ends up going back to wordpress thing we don't have a we don't have an angular front end or anything like that it's still a very uh wordpress thing uh and these are some of the tools that we use for for some of the areas we talked about and and you would know quite a lot but uh for analytics i'd say chart baked optimizely uh which is ab testing i don't know whether i should give my opinions on these of these things but i should do ab testing i don't know it depends on which field you're in um for media get him get the images which i mentioned uh tooling for handling responsive images watermarks perhaps uh for monetization you know you'll be handling adcode manager uh tiny pass which is subscription plugin uh for performance arguably uh well apple news uh instant articles all those types of things that have come on along recently uh wordpress uh they've they started from publishing they're they're freely available um but but word publishers were there first to create the plugins that handle these formats um and some of them are built for a cell by ourselves actually but some were built for somebody by some other agencies as well to support these platforms but they came out really quick but now they're freely available for everyone to use um and they will help your uh seo etc as well because the faster page is the higher ranks within google etc um and for social you know some of those um for uh and then for user management which is pretty important uh some of these are are are feeling a little bit maybe a little bit uh dated now but they've been around for ages and they are kind of the go-to but uh co-author plus being able to specify more than one uh author of a given article sounds like a super simple thing to do but even that can get kind of complex because they have uh five different authors for a given article and they want to credit them all but actually only twos and wordpress so you can't select them you have to put them in as custom fields and how the template handles all those it can get like weirdly complex and the plugin itself when he goes halfway to giving me a solution to that and sometimes actually you talk yourself out of it and end up doing it a different way or just just relying on free text perhaps uh and this is uh for my opinion of what trends are and they might not be everyone's but we we're seeing more and more uh this sort of uh increased need to manage media better within wordpress so it's a problem statement that kind of specified earlier is you've got a straight list and but at scale it becomes a little bit cumbersome and a lot more publishers uh have been asking for better tooling around this you know and from what I hear I've never got involved but uh the media manager within wordpress is a little bit difficult to work with maybe that's why it hasn't quite met me these needs but then who is who is wordpress built for I think it is still built for the community you know it's not built for these publishers so and it you know it's good for us because as agencies you know we're brought in to help with these problems and built on top of it but I think it could end up being back going back into the community to help like people at a much smaller scale as well and because some of this tooling could be beneficial uh page builders which I mentioned there's more everybody wants a page builder um and the rest api I'm some most of you might know that uh the rest api uh with a bit of uh uh sort of drama within the wordpress community the rest api went in part of the rest api went into wordpress core um uh the drama there was a lot of people felt that it should be kind of a separate plugin thing not necessarily part of core but but there's been a shift to the rest api and that'll pave the way for uh better tooling because you can kind of supplement uh wordpress with things or build things on top of it using an api not necessarily with the wordpress itself which can be a good thing and uh with the rise of front end only applications like using react and uh you know name your name your name your front end technology it allows the wordpress to act purely as a as a back end something that allows you to manage content and then separately you can build your your trendy front end um as you want it to be while not having to do anything to glue those two together your api is kind of your your um your your mechanism through that and I put in a multi-platform there it was actually because I was running out of trends to put in I stuck it in at the end but um you know I think the problem statement of being able to publish across different devices and audiences and platforms and stuff it continues to involve it's a bit of no problem now you know people are doing responsive and they know mobile is important but uh within big big publishers especially even though they're getting like maybe 60 or 70 percent mobile traffic and they're still building desktop based web applications you know the designer will come in with it with the desktop first and then the the mobile is kind of an afterthought and a lot of startups as they tend to do are a little bit more ahead on that and they're they're creating like mobile first designs and interactions and UX etc so I think that's something that'll continue to evolve as it tends to do but yeah that's that's it really um I hope that was interesting and uh there's something you could take away from something all right oh yeah sorry questions thanks so what do you think a publisher is really interested in WordPress it's kind of a it's kind of a bottom up thing it's uh that a lot of journalists like WordPress or have used WordPress um they might have it for their personal blog or you know they they they've used it so a lot of enterprise solutions are a little bit cumbersome perhaps or a little bit long-winded but selling a new CMS that happens to WordPress to that general collection of people is relatively easy um and uh yeah and we've met and it has been it's continues to be a struggle I think there's still a sort of a residing hesitation from enterprise companies to choose something that's open source you know they hear good things about it but they don't necessarily want to make that jump but over over time that keeps becoming less and less and less of a thing um anyone else for another question because I got lots so another question could you like give a quick like a scope of the typical publisher stack like you know from the post and and it's not just WordPress it's like WordPress local um company called Tech in Asia so it's got React running in front end WordPress in the back and yeah yeah you've mentioned most of them um but uh no I think yeah there is a there is a sort of an emerging trend of having a sort of decoupled solutions like that where you might have WordPress there with the API like I mentioned you might have a React front end uh that uh you know performance is hugely important so you'll see um the the CDN slotted on top of probably both of those with some caching in place um I think no matter what scale you're at um whether you're a small business or a publisher you might end up doing parts of that anyway you know it is a it is a sensible sort of decoupling of things um but it's kind of I suppose one point in that is it's it's still relatively new to WordPress I think um WordPress not in a bad way was was kind of WordPress you know you can do everything in it there's no reason to try to be more flamboyant about it like it does templating it does front end it manages content etc like there's no reason to to to separate it out in theory um but a lot of people do for for all sorts of reasons and and WordPress is a good fit for that yeah what are the most typical complaints or limitations that you hear about WordPress I'm switching from Drupal to WordPress yep publisher yeah I would love to hear the downsides of WordPress yeah of course um it's a lot of them aren't really that unique to WordPress I guess but um you know if you're if you're not careful you know it can be a little bit and unperform it I mean it's I think it personally I think it's probably more performant that it has better performance a lot of CMSs um but if you know if you're if you're not managing how many queries it's doing for metadata I mean it's actually relevant to the advanced custom fields things perhaps where if you do advanced if you're using advanced custom fields at scale and and big publishers given too much freedom they might actually create like really bad loops by accident and bring the whole site down or making super slow and and yeah you you have to be you have to be super vigilant to that and but for a publisher sales what they know about I think it probably comes back to the this wider ecosystem thing they might feel it's a little bit limited to start with this is it all the stuff I talked is a little bit insider but they they do want all of this extra tooling that WordPress doesn't come come with um and it's easier for them to pick something or try to pick something that does it all you know Doug there's there's solutions out there that does print plus workflow plus image you know why not just have that um but it's kind of cumbersome it doesn't really stack up and you know it's easy enough to to to dissuade them from that and then choose something like WordPress um and I think kind of leaning it back to positives again uh you know the it WordPress is not free you know if you're if you're if you're an enterprise consumer you know you're paying for development you're paying for hosting you know all these other things you're obviously not paying for any licenses or or getting that thing off thing but I think there's kind of this this can I think one that they almost defeat themselves by initially thinking oh we're doing something free we'll save loads of money and then you have to kind of explain them your wall like it is going to be cheaper in the long run um but it's not that it's not super cheap you know you'll you'll see the bill and there will be a bill at the end of the day questions yep yeah of course uh so publishers as in uh all the people that they were kind of in work on my workflow they'll do everything in production you know they're very yolo about things uh and uh but within digital you know within our side of actually developing things you know uh development staging uh uet you name it uh you know fairly big ua uh qa undertakings etc you know it's it's a big part of it you know you you're building a a lot of a lot of different components you know they don't always fit together as both like any like most technical projects and uh to match this type of scale you've gotten equivalently big digital undertaking that yeah all those things completely come into play um there's no like from local to production setups going on for sure but as far as content goes yeah they'll typically do it in one place what's important to them is they can respond to change you know they make a mistake or they choose the wrong layout um i think i think we tend uh as builders of these things we we try not to give them tooling where they can hang themselves you know you don't want them to come back and say you know you give us the ability for us to break it and you have to explain to them that yeah you asked us to give you that tooling to allow you to break the site like we just don't allow that to happen in the first place and they will ask for it they'll ask for tooling they'll give them all this freedom but if you give it to them you could be opening up a lot of problems so yeah we try to keep it as as contained as possible okay good thank you okay so i'm just going to do