 Hello and welcome to the second of our series of Birnaur Dialogues with me, Vinay Tiwari. Joining us today is someone who's got a decade, more than two and a half decades of experience in an industry that possibly is one of the most important for not just the economy, but for the way India moves around, something that we saw getting hit last year because of the pandemic and the log on restrictions. Tarun Gar, director of sales and marketing and service for Hyundai Motors, India's leading auto and car manufacturer, someone who knows a thing or two about cars. So I'm delighted to have you, Tarun, on board to have this conversation and to talk about how the auto industry is facing what Hyundai is doing and how you see the year and a couple of years planning out from now. Thank you very much for joining us and giving us this time. Tarun, let me start off with a question that probably everybody has been talking about, everybody has discussed, and of course, is something that I'm sure is a big part of what the auto industry is going through. And that is, how does one recover from the post pandemic fallout? I mean, of course, all of us knew that the last year has been fairly devastating for the auto industry, for the car industry specifically, but I think it's very important to keep in mind that the auto industry was facing a little bit of a slowdown even before the pandemic began. Now, keeping both in mind, how do you see 2008 even now rolling out? I mean, things are coming back to normal, to a large extent, there are of course newer challenges, but how do you see the year coming up, keeping in mind what you've experienced in the last one year? Thank you, Vinay, and yes, you're right. So the pandemic was something which nobody had foreseen and it taught us a lot of things. The most important of which was, of course, to be really agile and flexible to consumer trends. And some very clear, strong trends have emerged, which are actually surprised many, because if you remember when all this talk about the pandemic was happening, there was a talk that maybe because of the economic distress that customers are in, they would rather go for entry-level cars only, maybe they will downgrade their purchases, maybe people will not buy cars because it is not a mandatory kind of a thing, but Indian customers have again proved us all wrong. So what has happened actually is that customers have really shifted to personal mobility and they are really wanting a safe mode of transportation, especially when the economy is opening up, they have to go to office. But not only that, the trend of SUVs, which was very clearly visible over the last four, five years, it only becomes even more. In fact, last year SUVs contributed 29% to the overall sale of the auto industry. It was 25 in calendar year 19. And in fact, first two months of 21, it is now 33%. So it continues to go up. Connected cars customers are wanting, because what is happening is there is a place called his house, which is his first space. Then there's an office, which is his second space. And the third space for the customer is actually a car where he wants to feel as safe and as connected as he feels in his house and in his office. I think that has become a very, very key trend and in fact, what we have witnessed is that customers now want to go for vacation in places in his car rather than really taking a flight or going by any public mode of transportation. So in fact, even journeys as long as four to five hours or six hours are being made by car. The families have become very closer. I think all men have realized the importance of women in our life, how they have managed, this pandemic with no maids, really all of us at home and asking for food. We want to be very much closer to the family. We want to really spend as much time. So I think a big paradigm shift has happened. And yes, auto industry, I think last seven months, a very good growth has been witnessed, which is very good. And as OEMs, if I talk about Hyundai, our endeavor has always been to really excite the market by new models, new technologies. And that is what we have tried to do. And so far, so good. So things are looking up. And like I said, we are not looking too far ahead in the future. But as of now, the customer demand seems to be quite good. Right. So I mean, very interesting points you've made. And I'll come to some of the points that you mentioned as we go along. I'll also talk a little bit about the CRETA story because when you mentioned the SCOV, the first thing that came to my mind was the remarkable success of CRETA and how it changed virtually the game of SCOVs in India, so to speak. So I'll come to that in a bit. But one very interesting point that I take out from your answer is this. Before the pandemic and the lockdown happened, one of the challenges, and I'm not for a second running down these concerns that governments or activists raised, but clearly the auto industry has to be very mindful of some of the issues that are raised vis-a-vis, say, for instance, urban pollution or the emission standards, for instance, the government has now mandated BS6, even in the middle of the lockdown, they've mandated that, there are various other issues. And that, there is always a public discourse about big cities moving to public transport as opposed to personalized transport. Would you say that the pandemic in that sense has balanced that debate a little bit? Because just as you mentioned, with worries about the virus and the safety of a personal space, so to speak, and car is a very important personal space, that debate has gotten a little balanced, that people have once again started thinking about personal transport, even at the cost of not getting so worried about congestion that typically mars some of the bigger cities in India. So I'll try to bring in a different perspective here. If you see the car penetration in India, it is just about 26, 27 per thousand. So we are far, far away from the saturation or you call about, you know, okay, there are so many cars on road. It's not the case in India, because we are still an evolving, developing economy, where, so where people are, their incomes are increasing, their aspirations are increasing, and of course the need for personal transportation continues to go up. The second aspect is of course that responsibility towards cleaner mobility. I think that is extremely important. And as you said, even before the pandemic, all this confusion and shifting from BS4 to BS6 was happening. So so many customers had with held their purchase. And of course then they wanted to see, okay, which manufacturers will be able to really give BS6 engines, and not only in terms of emission, but also in terms of performance. With the humility, I would say that Hyundai was able to not only do a BS6 for petrol, but also for diesel, turbo, we brought in CNG. Then of course our electric car, Kona. So very clearly the move towards, kind of cleaner mobility has begun. In fact, I would also like to take this opportunity to say that even though we were so happy when we saw the hydrogen mission in the budget, because as you know, we are already selling the Nexo FC EV in Korea and many other countries. We are setting the feasibility now in India to see what is the customer perception about that. So I would say that the direction towards cleaner mobility has clearly been made. And as auto OEMs, we have to show more responsibility towards really looking at introducing new technologies. And I like to say that, when we introduced the Kona in 2019, actually it was the first full-fledged SUV, which was also an electric car. So here we have to sometimes sacrifice the need for volumes and see that, okay, let the customer experience it. Maybe it's a niche product, but as more and more customer experience it, charging infrastructure will come in and automatically the direction will be made. So this is what I think is very, very... So let me ask you two, three trend questions which come out from your answer very clearly. I mean, clearly we've seen that in the last couple of years or so, there have been two or three distinct policy shifts that the government is making. One is of course to shifting to say the electric vehicles. The famed two is being rolled out so to speak and the government is actually trying to make some push off towards that, the budget speech mentioned a bit of that. And the other thing that they're pushing very clearly is the safety features in a car. I mean, they've just made the front airbags mandatory for instance, even at the entry level for all cars, in fact, and there seems to be a move to now reduce many more mandatory safety provisions. I mean, whether it's rear parking sensors, whether it is the ABS systems, those are the things that the Ministry of Transport is pushing a lot. Now, do you believe that Indian customers are typically a very price sensitive and every time an added feature has to be given in a car mandatory, it does put some kind of price pressure. Do you think the Indian industry, even at the entry grade, is ready to actually roll out all the safety measures the government is pushing the industry as well as the issue of the electric vehicles because clearly with pollution, acquiring a center stage in cities where you are, for instance, in Delhi, every year it's an annual thing, that again becomes a big part of the strategy of any company. And I'm sure Hyundai is looking at the electric vehicles way more seriously than possibly 10 years ago. Absolutely. In fact, answer is to both your questions as far as regulations are concerned, Hyundai has been very proactive and we will continue to meet all the regulations much in time. I think that is the prime responsibility. So no two ways about it. In fact, if you see the customer is evolving even this both in terms of safety, as well as emission because even this BS4 to BS6 transition happened, it led to an increase in cost. But I think customers getting mature and they understand that, yes, this is extremely important. So that covers the first aspect. As far as the second aspect of electric mobility is concerned, it's always like a chicken and egg story. So I see so many industry experts talking about where is the charging infrastructure, let it come and then EV will come. So my point is I think it has to move parallel. So sometimes we have to take a lead, introduce some technologies and then the charging infrastructure will also start coming in. So that is where Hyundai has taken a lead. We, I think globally we understand that, we have a lot of options. So we are really monitoring this situation very carefully to introduce more and more clean mobility vehicles. Talked about EVs, I already talked about hydrogen. So I think we're looking at all options to make sure that we really work with the government of India to take India towards its logical, cleaner mobility part. Let me ask you one more question because this is one issue that interests and intrigues me a lot with the shift towards electric vehicles simply because there is a large element and I'm talking anecdotally right now Tarun, you're the expert and that's why I thought, let me cross-match my anecdotal evidence with your industry hardcore empirical evidence, which is this. Electric cars need a trust factor from the consumer. I mean, Indians are typically used to the idea of getting stuck in traffic jams or taking double the time that they would normally expect in a commute. Do you think there is a some element of lack of trust over, will the electric car take the kind of requirement that you need on the Indian roads? Is there a worry or a fear or a trust factor that you think is still missing? And maybe that needs to be developed a bit more for it to become more popular. The people trust a fuel because you used it for that long. The only experience Indian consumers have with electric or batteries is your cell phones and your gadgets at home. You really don't have any experience of mobility so to speak with an electric process. Do you think there is a trust problem as of now at least? Actually, you're right. That is why I think it is our responsibility to ensure that we give the proper range and that kind of confidence to the customer. So when I talked about the Kona, it had a range of 450 or kilometers, which was one of the highest in India. So that gives the customer a confidence. Yes, even if I'm stuck in a traffic jam, I will not be stranded. The second aspect is that charging at home. That kind of a paraphernalia to make sure that you have a charging at home. And so I think both the aspects are extremely important. So we have to continuously see that how the customer concerns are addressed. I would also like to answer your second question about the, not the question but a comment about the movements. I think that's also very important. And if you see that is why we introduce wireless charging phones in our cars. So most of our cars have now wireless charging phones, which is so very comfortable for the customer. Because without phone, you are almost like immobile, almost. So, and that has been really appreciated. So I think it's all about identifying the needs of the customer, sometimes spoken and maybe sometimes the latent needs. Because this need for a wireless charging phone was not actually spoken by the customer. But then as an OEM, you have to go ahead and identify and give it. And the customers then really laugh it off. Like one more question. Do you have a view on the same new emphasis again or a little bit of a nudge that is coming in on company, on OEMs going in for flex engines? I mean, government wants more and more companies to come up with the flex engines and to have a dual fuel process going. Do you think that's a smart idea considering we still don't have any headway into the ethanol supply or even an availability at a regular basis? Look, like I said, as OEMs, our job is to really, really support the government. That is the first part. The second part is we have always believed that it has to start with some vision and then slowly things will move. If we try to really solve all these problems today, then things will never happen. I think we should not kill innovation. We should always look at every idea in a very, very supportive way. And then slowly look at the bottlenecks and work towards really improving them and getting over them. I think that is what we have always believed in and I believe that's a reasonably good strategy to have. Right, now one other thing that the industry has been asking for a very long time and it's something that happens globally across the world with great success, which finally happened this year in the budget, which is this new scapage policy that the government announced. And just about a few days back, we heard the government saying that this will be a policy which will have 5% rebate for customers who want to go in for this policy and buy a new vehicle. Do you think that this particular 5% rebate is enough or do you think that there are huge handicaps still in people actually going forward and accepting scapage policy? Because mindset-wise, Indians have a typical tendency of extending whatever position they have for as long as they can. I mean, our parents and our grandparents took pride in saying that this car is 40-year-old and it is still as good as new. I mean, you still hear them say that. That's the mindset with which we've been brought up, so to speak. Do you think this scapage policy, something Indians would adapt to fairly quickly? Yeah, actually, you're absolutely right. I'll answer the second part first. I used to live in a society which had 200 flats and there were about 40 cars. In 10 years, I saw them just covered in a car cover and not really moving out. So that is how we, some of us have always looked at that those assets, that's okay. Even if they're not used, let it be with me. So coming back to the serious issue of scapage policy, I think this is a very strong initiative by the government and we fully support it. And so we have to still see the contours of the policy. But one thing which it will surely bring in is that the policy will really motivate people to really let go of those cars which have the probably not so modern technology. Maybe they are very, very polluting as well. So I think as Indians and our country and as Mother Earth, we all deserve cars which are much more cleaner and I think it will really move towards that. Yes, commercial vehicles I believe are the ones which is the primary kind of beneficiary of this scapage policy. And regarding your other issues, I think we're still waiting for the policy to come in because we have been talking of course about it but to make a concrete strategy, we need a final document. So we're just awaiting that and then accordingly we'll decide how to really move forward on this. One of the very important things that happened again very recently was a parliamentary panel actually recommend to the government that one to ensure that the auto industry thrives and recovers from the pandemics impact. One of the measures should be to reduce the GST on cars and the other is to have a separate department for auto within the government. Do you believe that this is the right time now to actually for the government to provide maybe a reduction in the GST in the next council meeting and even have a separate department because clearly auto industry provides almost 15, 16% of the country's revenues. I mean the tax collection revenue almost 15% of it comes from auto sales. When you're right, of course we take pride in the fact that we contribute almost half of manufacturing GDP and about 14, 15% of overall GDP. But at the same time we understand that everybody has a role to play. So the government has a role to play but then they have their priorities. Today I'm sure government has so many priorities there are limitations of budgets. So we have full confidence that as in when government thinks that yes, this has to be done they are going to do it. But then we cannot just wait for that. I think as OEMs, we have to see what we can do to really make sure that the customers are interested engaged and they are coming to us. And I think that is what is very, very critical. What we can do is introduce new models. So if I talk about Hyundai, almost 10 models have been introduced in the last two years. New technology is new automations. Some kind of really, you know because customers also evolve. Please see what has happened in this pandemic Vinay is that customers are spending more and more time on their mobile phones, on their, you know surfing the internet, looking at global technologies. So they want latest products. They want new technologies. They want more automatics. Like we introduced this IMT technology. You know, what we saw was that in India, automatics are still only 20, 25% of the overall market whereas globally it is 90%. So why not? I mean, Indians also deserve, you know some kind of a rest while they're driving. And that is where we drove the, we introduced this IMT you know, intelligent manual transmission and it is receiving some very, very good feedback. So my point is that we have to play our role as an OEM. But yes, as and when, you know government think this is the right time to support it's most welcome. So no two questions about it. So you mentioned new models and that brings me to one new aspect that I want to talk about which is very interesting. And that's where the Krita story comes in as well which is this, you know I think a lot of people don't realize that you know, all car manufacturers come up with newer models or upgrades or models or completely new, you know categories which may not be present in India. I think a lot of people don't realize that many more models fail than they succeed. We obviously talk about the success stories like Krita but a lot of models that manufacturers have introduced haven't worked at all. Now, and again anecdotally I would imagine that different Indians are very disparate in the way they choose their car. Some possibly choose it for fuel depending on their field efficiency depending on their ability to actually finance that. Some may just go for looks. Some possibly go for comfort or sizing. So there are different behavioral patterns that go behind why a new model works or doesn't work. Tell us a little bit about using the Krita success story to tell us how does one decide what's the winning model in India or is there ever a success which you can be sure of? It's just a hidden message. How does it work? I think it is a very, very important issue. And let me tell you Vinay, when we launch a model actually it is three to four years before that that we have to decide that this kind of a model is going to come. So it's not as if yesterday I saw, you know okay I decided I'm going to introduce and tomorrow I can introduce no. So I think the most important thing is are you really studying the customer trends? I think that is extremely, extremely important because to have a sense of what the customer is thinking and what he's going to see four years down the line. And that is where you have to take some risks as well. Like when we introduced the Krita in 2015 there was hardly any market for such an SUV but then we decided to really launch it and rest as they say history. Then when the new Krita was to be launched we had to see what will the customer want. I mean we could clearly see that he wanted connectivity. Then there was so much of talk about whether diesel BS6 should happen or not. You know so many pundits were saying okay customer will not buy diesel in this BS6 but we were very confident that if as long as you can provide a very good engine which is fuel efficient and at the right price customers will buy and today you see 60% of the Krita buyers are buying diesel. So my point is it is very important to be very close to the customer and see what the trend and then going ahead and launching the product. That is the first part. The second part is the timing. I think it's very important not to really give too much of a time to introduce a model. I think the cycle, product life cycle has to be doing justice and because customers start customers are also trying to so many customers want to change a car in say five years. So they need a new car. They would not want to go for that or for their same car. So I think OEMs have to align their strategies in line with the customer expectations and clearly and you know I think that strategy has worked for the first time in our history in 2020 we have become the SUV market leader as far as that is concerned and of course Krita was the number one car and seeing so much of love and affection of the customers more than 500,000 Krita have been so you know already sold. Vendu also continues to do well then the Kona, the Tucson and now of course we have introduced you know already talked about the Alcazar you know which because we feel another there's a clearly a scope for another SUV from the Hyundai stable and that is where the seven-seater SUV Alcazar coming in. So I think it's all about spotting the consumer trend and then going ahead and giving the customer what he wants. Yeah I mean look pretty much I always believe that Krita kind of made Indians fall in love with the SUV and I thought that one of the reasons why Indians possibly fell in love with SUVs also and correct me if I'm wrong because I really wanted to know the expert's point of view I'm just giving the anecdotal point of view which is this that SUVs in India typically also give you a sense of control on the road and Indian you know traffic being a little more aggressive you like to be behind a wheel that feels aggressive as well I mean you don't want to be the passive driver on the streets you really want to be a good feel of the road the view of the road and you know a little bit of a higher position that gives you a feeling of commandment or a commanding presence so to speak on the street do you think that part of the human behavior is fueling the new love for SUVs that India has and you've mentioned India's now the global SUV market? Absolutely I think that's your spot on I'll add couple of things here yes one is that position gives you much more confidence and control over the road this second aspect also is we understand Indians are moving away from that culture of keeping a driver to really self-driving I think that is also very important because traffic was so much that most of us wanted to have a chauffeur but because we did not enjoy driving but these millennials who are coming in they really love driving and SUV really you know kind of is perfect if you love driving so so many of the sedan customers are shifting to SUVs because of that and of course the space then you also want to go out on weekends so you want a good boot space you want your family to travel together so I think lot of things are really solved by the SUVs and also please see with the newer trendy SUVs coming in because one factor which was not working in favor of SUVs was the design you know earlier because you know there were some big sturdy kind of SUVs but which are not very good to look at but if you see these modern SUVs they are also very good to look at so I think all the all the expectations of the customers are now met and clearly the shift is towards the SUVs one of the things you mentioned Tharuna Shantval Vag was about how especially during the pandemic people have started using phones and laptops and computers way more now one of the most unintended and possibly unexpected impact of that has been the sudden semiconductor shortage that's hit your industry and you know the waiting period for some of the cars is now almost six to seven months ironically at a situation where the demand you know is picking up for sure but the industry would have wanted the demand to be much more I mean if you're taking six to seven months to develop a popular model it's not a very ideal situation do you believe that this new learning that we've had from the sudden semiconductor shortage principally because it's imported also tells you that maybe the auto industry and these component supply industry possibly needs to move more towards what the government calls the Atman-Irbar initiative I mean you really need to do more of the manufacturing here than depend on imports so to speak I mean because in your industry component supply is the most important part of the assembly line Absolutely in fact, Hunda has always believed in Atman-Irbar Bharat and you know we are quite high on the localization front but this pandemic has also told us and the entire auto industry that we have to really de-risk you know even the smallest of the component can actually derail all your plans and I think because it's unless you have everything you cannot make a car and so it's a global shortage and we are really working very closely with our suppliers to see that how fast you know the balance part of the imported content can also be localized so I think that's a lesson for everybody and with all humility we would say that we will work very very closely and strongly with the government as well as with our vendor partners to make sure that we go we expedite on this part of Atman-Irbar Bharat even faster than what we were doing so far yes, on the waiting period at the outset I have to take this opportunity to apologize to all of our customers who are waiting for you know most of our popular models I like to assure them that we are really doing our best of our production and supply chain and you know are really working day in and day out to make sure that the customers are delivered as soon as possible so please I will also say that the cars are what they wait so but and we are doing our best like one of the things that I have noticed in the last few months or so is the industry pushing for government easing off or actually enabling more and more exports now I want to know the human dive you wanted or their plans on it because clearly one of the ways of expanding you know production capabilities or sales is also look at nascent markets I mean a lot of countries in Africa for instance where Indian cars are already being supplied I'm sure there are some countries in Latin America as well which are one of the target areas now do you believe that that's where the new emerging markets will come for even manufacturers based out of India it's not just the domestic consumer but also in that sense the international consumer that you're looking at yeah look Vinay if you see Hunda is you know 25 years in India we have been the number one exporter since inception so we have always taken exports very seriously we believe this is an opportunity for us to really show the might of India to the world that India in India also we can produce cars which are very well accepted which are great on quality and that is what we have been able to do even in 2020 we exported around 98,000 cars and we are now exporting to close to 90 countries so we take a lot of pride in this and yes you're right I think there's an immense potential there and when government announced make in India and of course we were always doing make in India but we want to take it further and make sure that the Indian flag you know keeps on flying high in all these countries where there is so much of demand for Indian products as long as you can give them quality at the right price so you have to balance domestic as well as international markets because this is critical not only to get that foreign exchange for us so but also like I said the image of India really goes up with every car that is exported out of India a couple of questions before I wrap up the one is of course the the differential between say the diesel pricing and the price is progressively reducing now with the government reducing the subsidy level now there was a phase in between when diesel cars were really being pushed simply because the customer's preference for it because the fuel was cheaper that differential has now kind of evened out to a large extent is there a recalibration of the strategy that Hyundai was saying or maybe the whole industry has on pushing diesel cars as much as petrol like before or it's now pretty much even Stevens irrespective of the fuel type in fact I'll give two perspectives on this one is our study shows that customers buy diesel as much for fuel efficiency as for the initial talk and that kind of the power that they get so that I think is absolutely critical so that is the first part of it the second part of it is while the difference between petrol and diesel say maybe okay 9 rupees, 10 rupees but as the fuel prices are going up the importance of fuel efficiency has gone up also so diesel has almost 30% more fuel efficiency than petrol so customers are actually you know when the fuel prices started going up we saw a very clear trend that customers are wanting more and more diesel and today if you see creator like I said already 60% diesel Varna 33-34% diesel when you 30% diesel and there's a huge weighting so I-20 again you know more and more people wanting diesel so very clearly look here understand that India is a very big country and there are various kinds of customers there are some states where diesel is much more popular like Punjab, Andhra Pradesh, Telangana, Madhya Pradesh so as Hyundai we believe that we need to really be in the consideration set off any person in India who wants to buy a four wheel car so I think that is absolutely important now whether he wants to buy a diesel or a petrol or a CNG or an electric or a turbo we are nowhere to decide that he wants this I think our job is to give him a choice and that is what we try to do and then customer can decide which is best for him Right, you know one of the interesting things that's changed in India in the last 15 years or so as the economic condition of people buy a lot seems to have improved is the, you know the vehicle segment especially even becoming very relevant in the rural parts of India and it's no longer just a city issue cars and SUVs and even any kind of personal abilities is now increasing you know even in the rural areas do you agree with this fact that the rural India in that sense is now possibly a bigger and a more important market for car manufacturers than say even urban India because that's where the headroom is even higher Yeah, look I would not agree that it is more what is more important or less important but very clearly if you see the and compliments from it you know who have been really focusing so much on the infrastructure if you see the connectivity codes I think it has really given a big boost to the rural economy and we as Hyundai are also seeing a very clear trend that rural sales are getting better and better and not only for smaller cars but for SUVs for premium hatchbacks so because rural customers also now as much knowledgeable as much connected thanks to of course the so much of internet connectivity and they also don't want to compromise on the kind of car they have so rule has become very important in fact post pandemic while urban took some time to come back I think first 3-4 months it was the rural which was really driving the auto sales of course then post October November urban also came back and now we are having a healthy demand from across the country so I think I would say that like I said India still the car penetration is very low not only in rural but in urban so we have to continuously provide you know new products and new solutions to the customers like for example we had the CTB you know click to buy where you can have 100% end-to-end car buying experience actually this has really removed the divide between rural and urban customers because you know so we have to also think about as OAN's new ways by which we can see what are the problems the customers are facing can you make so many digital experiences for him can you make sure that his experience is as good as anything else I think that is very important because car buying is still a very very important decision for any customer in life you know a person may be biased to a maximum three cars during his life time so I think this is extremely right so my final question before I let you go how do you see the car industry panning out from here I mean you handled a lot of setbacks some intended some unintended some unexpected so to speak but now that there are green shoots and you can clearly see signs of revival where do you see the car industry growing from here say in the next 12 to 18 months or so so when I look like I said currently demand is good there's a lot of positives you know going for us the vaccination is happening at a good pace interest rates are low and the demand seems to be high at the same time what this pandemic has taught us is that don't think too much in the future I think we have to be agile and flexible because there are some challenges which still remain we see that you know second wave of pandemic coming in some states even in India of course globally as well the fuel prices are high so I think we have to see we have to really see month by month but I would say that optimism level is definitely much better than what it was say two months back or four months back or six months back so clearly the optimism is increasing and we hope that this demand momentum continues and we have to make sure that we are able to supply cards to the customers and meet their good demand that we have witnessed thank you thank you so much Tarun that was Tarun Gar director of marketing sales and service of Hyundai India you know a leader in an industry which is possibly one of the biggest indicators of the health of the economy and I'm glad to hear that he sounds way more positive than you know some of the other industries that are possibly still struggling so good news on that front but of course there are challenges along thank you so much Tarun very enlightening as much of learning for me as the interests that I had in talking to you Tarun thank you so much and have a good day thank you Vinay always a pleasure to talk to you thank you so much thank you