 Good morning, everyone. I'm Sue Boffman from the Association of Research Libraries, and I'm really pleased to welcome all of you to our second workshop of our workshop series, conducted by our colleagues and team partners from the University of Florida. It's my pleasure to welcome all of you this morning. If you were able to attend the first workshop last week, we learned about the project, and I know we recorded the session. So if you did miss that session and are here today for the first time, we'll be sure to share that recording with you. But we're looking forward to today's workshop to learn more about the project on library spaces and all of the great work that the project team has undertaken. So thank you again. Just another quick plug for our initiative, the Research Library Impact Framework. It's been a long project, and the UF team has been with us from the very beginning and very appreciative of that. And we're also appreciative that we have an IMLS grant and funds from that grant to supporting our workshop series that you're participating in. So without further ado, let me turn the podium over to you, Jason. Thank you. Well, thank you. Well, first it's a pleasure to be here and it's also been an immense pleasure to work with the staff and colleagues in UF's library system. And my other colleague, Meg Portillo, we were approached by the library staff as a school of interior design. My name is Jason Manili, by the way. I'm an instructor in the Department of Interior Design, an associate professor. And we were working with the library for, what has it been now, guys? Are we going on? Two and a half years. Two and a half years. This was pre-COVID too, so it was sort of an interesting transition that I know we all faced. But you know, the question of space came up, came up, the question of creativity from the library staff. How do we support it? How do we do it in fundamental ways? And so it's been a great pleasure working with a lot of the librarian minds over there. So why don't we introduce the rest of us here, Laura? Hi. Hi. I'm the director of assessment and user experience for the libraries and I'm representing the library's team, which also includes Valerie Manson, who is our assistant dean of assessment and student engagement. And Sarah Gonzalez and Jean Bossart, who are also librarians at the Marston Science Library. Yeah, thank you, Jason. I too would echo this project really had legs and we are very excited to share some of the work that we did with you. I am Mike Portillo, I'm a professor and associate dean for research and strategic initiatives. And I was very pleased to be brought into this project. We have a number of, we do a number of evidence based research and design projects across campus at the University of Florida is our living laboratory. The Marston Library project really allowed us to dive deeply, particularly given the expertise of the faculty over in Marston and in Library University of Florida Library Science System. I'm also going to recognize in the audience, Adrian Del Monte, who is ran ran the course of this project with us as a PhD research assistant. So glad to see Adrian in the audience coming from another time zone in the Philippines. So back to you, Jason. Well, without further ado, we're going to start off with a little interactive activity led by led by Laura. So I will go ahead and move that Laura I think you might be muted there. Okay, if you would please go to www.menti.com and input the code. I'm going to have you base your decisions on the two images in front of you on the PowerPoint slide. So we're going to ask you to rate the adjectives that we use last week. Based on the images that you're seeing here today. And this mimics what we did with the survey when we deployed it because we were remote. And so we included images of the spaces we wanted them to think about. We included that online survey, because we knew a lot of people wouldn't be in the libraries at that time so I'm going to go ahead and have the first question, then we'll go to the next question. Go ahead and do that. And then we're going to return and Jason's going to go through. Can you see the next question. Yes, we can. Thank you. Okay, so while we're waiting for that. To populate. Just to give you an overview of what we're going to talk about today sort of our agenda. So we've already done introductions and our interactive activity. Laura is going to do a brief review of the library study and sort of the whole purpose behind this project. You know why we were collaborating with you know why they were collaborating with the interior design school, but also give a brief summary of just the research findings that ended up informing some of the design solutions that you're going to see in this presentation. And then we sort of need to start off on is sort of understanding a little bit about the role of interior design schools we can sometimes be a misunderstood profession so we're going to talk a little bit about sort of our role on campus what we demand of our students and then we're going to start to dive into some of the highlights from these research informed student design solutions, and then finally we're going to sort of wrap up with just sort of a little bit of a round table discussion about sort of the benefits. We saw between this library design school collaboration and and and sort of end with that but also give you guys an opportunity not just to ask us questions about the project but hopefully to ask some questions. So in some spaces, you do have a couple folks here with design background on online so you know it might be a good time just to sort of give some insight to that. I said I need two more minutes. Okay, well what I'll do is maybe I'll start going on the, or maybe would you like to, why don't you go ahead and go over what what we did and I think you'll be the best to talk about this. Sure, absolutely. So again, the lens we were really looking through was how the library can really facilitate creativity in the student populations. In terms of facilitating creative thinking, innovative research and problem solving we were interested in student populations ranging from those who had just just started the university first year students all the way through graduate and PhD students, and we, we invested, we framed our questions and operationalized the methodology using three kinds of research, you know, instruments. We were looking at how this space was used, you know, what were the hotspots within this space, you know, where was unutilized space, we were looking from floor to floor, and traditionally, the upper, the higher you went on floors four and five. The atmosphere gets quieter and quieter, and our assumptions, generally they're, it goes from we're graduate student populated to undergraduates for to graduate students. And so, Adrian Del Monte, who I just introduced you to, headed up the observations that he, he did analysis on each floor that took place over several weeks, and really looked at, you know, how how the space was being utilized, both in shared communal areas as well as those were private carols or more enclosed spaces, we know creativity does can be manifest in the individual but also in groups, and we wanted to see what what the occupancy and capacity was in terms of getting a spatial baseline analysis. And we also the second, the second leg of our research focused on an online survey that got students to really talk about how they were using these library spaces. Again, the sample that we were able to engage is primarily undergraduate, but we do have a, we, we do have, we did capture the graduate student perspectives on how they're using this space, how often they're using this space, and also getting them to think beyond the current existing conditions to ideally what this space would be like for maximizing their, their work individually and in groups particularly related to more creative thinking whether that was on class assignments they were doing or whether it was really analyzing, you know, their doctoral dissertation findings. So certain findings that that emerged from this survey we wanted to dig in deeper and find out why, and, and how these things were happening. So we set up focus groups that not only included the undergraduate and graduate but really included some of the library faculty and staff who also use Marsden as a workplace to get their observations. So we did the focus groups and again, got them to really talk about the space as it existed, as well as, ideally, what that space could look like. So the spatial analysis, the online survey and the focus groups we started to see how the findings were triangulated and some findings we expected and others were surprising to us. Yeah, I think one thing that that I would like to highlight in this, you know, three part approach was that, you know, as designers we've learned that that observations are sometimes your best metric because people may be very biased in what they think they need and they may not know things that they might not be conceptualizing of things that could really benefit their daily life. So, so with the spatial analysis it was definitely based on on site observations. And I think that's a really important sidebar just to put on on this structure. Jason I said you that slide and I can cover this while you get that out. Okay. Hopefully. Adrian, as we mentioned, conducted the observational findings and we talked about that a little bit at the last session and just to recap, you know, we focused on certain times, we identified the busiest and the slowest times, both for the weekdays and the weekends. And so we, Adrian took these layouts of the seating for each floor, and they did observations to really kind of get an idea of what students were using and how they're using it. And, you know, based on the typology of individual group and public private spaces. And so one thing that we also did a little bit further is I kind of analyzed, you know, the capacity utilization of each, and also based on the types of seating available so for instance on floors one two and three, for instance on floor one which is the basement. The group seating capacity is 594 out of about 736 seats. And so, looking at what the capacity was for that floor, the capacity for group ranged from 1% on Saturday at seven o'clock to 1% on Wednesday between 615 and 630pm. And then for individual use, the range was anywhere from in the basement, it was 21% and sometimes it went as high as 178%. So what that told us for group for individual space. You know, they, there was an over usage of individual group space by individuals, individuals working in group spaces. And so it's something that we see it all the time in libraries one person sitting at a four top, and they have themselves spread out. And so this just kind of reinforced for us what we kind of had seen in this and in other studies done at Marston even so by one of our team members Sheila Bosch. So did you want to add anything about the spatial analysis. No, not at that point I think this is good. I'm only operating on a one screen computer so I'm to open up that email I'm going to have to just dive out here for a second guys let me. Okay, sure. Let me go and get that finding. Hopefully I don't have any spicy emails on screen. Let's see. It's pretty interesting to the findings. Yeah, so let me just throw this back into the PowerPoint real quick. And one thing just to add is, when any student comes into the library they do have access to sit anywhere on these floors and so they're making determinations. What kind of privacy they want how much I contact they want with others. Do they feel more protected against a peripheral wall, or do they want to be out in the middle and and what is their. What kind of light source do they want to they want to be sitting next to a window so they have the overhead light, you know, perhaps task lighting, as well as natural light streaming in. What these choices individuals make on how to situate themselves and hopefully optimize what they're doing and in this case really focusing on that creative thinking process. And as we know the process does loop through different phases we talked a little bit about that last week, some of that can involve can be done individually, and sometimes you're involving others in the process. So it looks like Jason, you have some findings. Yeah, let's see what we got here so what do you guys see and I'm trying to hide my little taskbar at the bottom here. Okay, remember just so that everyone realizes on the left would be number one and on the right I mean if you're looking at the means that are in the little markers. The one is on the left and five is on the right. But if you just looked at the numbers you'd see the difference between. So we're seeing we're seeing more gloomy versus more exciting space, something that feels more calming versus energetic. And again when we start moving into the curvilinear lines and a lot more, we had talked last in our last session about that choice and control. The second space definitely offers more choice and ability to flex pretty easily into different into adjacent areas whereas you have more the Carol. There are rows of carols which which helps with, which can be another preference, and again social is almost an opposite ends of the spectrum. Jason. Yeah, one thing I'm seeing that as a designer I start immediately, you know, start to question I say well, you know, again we're small sample size of this of course about to read too much into it but if we start to look at sort of, you know, sort of associated with the individual and, and playfulness is sort of more associated with some more of the social but I, but I may start to argue what about the adaptability or libraries, or as the space as is just providing only serious space for individuals what about playful space for individuals. What about serious space for groups. What about you know what is that latitude and can we start to really increase the gamut of spatial typology that's sort of what I start to see in some of this data. Same thing you know formal spaces for individuals probably have a need but what about informal spaces, vice versa so I think some of this. There were no people in either of these pictures they were taken when the library was empty so we probably have very, very different results and again what what the space often dictates to us when it's empty and what we think it's supposed to be used for as you guys know, it takes on a very different dynamic. If an individual say where to sit in some of those open group clusters, a space that could potentially have energy could quickly fall flat. If an individual occupied one of those territories that you're seeing those lounge territories in the front seat. So that's really interesting to me just to see some of that already want to summarize some of just the overall findings that came out of the study before you jumped into the sort of the student projects and the interior design. Now we saw these last week and you know like I mentioned you know when we see an overabundance of students using group space we're recommending, you know we're finding that they want tables that allow them to spread out materials. You know there were comments about replacing damaged furniture and you know the whole sense of, you know, a space that feels newer or clean, you know, and taken care of maintain that's important. So, offering a variety of seating, and then you know increasing whiteboards and offering erasers whiteboards they use in big spaces to, you know, in addition to the way that the spaces are broken up, they break them up even more for themselves, using whiteboards, increasing the dinner and, and dinner table and bank, banquet seating, allowing for individual choice and control we, you know saw that again, you know, in everything that we heard is that, you know, students have different needs at different times. And, you know, sometimes they're you know what we found is that sometimes they're in the space for, you know, seven to 10 hours at one time. And so they kind of need a way to break up that space. And then, you know, offering stimulating but not overly arousing, you know if they want arousal they want to go to a different spot and, you know, and use that, you know to kind of break up the time that they spend there. And then just having the natural lighting, the biophilic, you know aspects which you know bringing nature inside, and then, you know, being able to see out across the room I think that makes it easier for them to see where everything is. So you can go to the next slide please. So general recommendations that the design construction and planning team brought to us is, you know, creating this sense of place. And, and Jason's going to go through these with visuals and so you'll see when we talk about palette of posture or biophilic connections. He's going to get into what those mean and so you know what they look like. And so, and choice and control for I and we spaces, you know for people in libraries for myself at least, you know, when I think of how would I make a change here. I'm out of loss so that's why the collaboration was of such value for us. Okay, great. Well thank you for that great overview Laura. So just really quick. I just want to go through what what do we do as interior design schools. We tend to be a very misunderstood profession. You know, we're not this and this is sort of the stereotype we're always fighting against is people think that we automatically just pick paint colors and fluff pillows break into your home and redecorate your, your family room while you're gone and, and, and, and, and really a lot of that involves a flair for design it's not just aesthetics but really what differentiates us as a field, and we are licensed field by the way is that we are experts in human centered design. And we really started design process not first thinking about aesthetics or look or design flair, but we are really looking at how do we optimize human performance how do we literally change a business and improve a business how do we improve a school and improve learning. So we work across all sorts of different market segments from healthcare. How can the space improve healing and recovery time how can we reduce slips and falls in retail how do we, how do we encourage people to actually go to a brick and mortar retail store, when they can buy something from Amazon online how do we close that deal how can space support that corporate offices and here designed to the ones that design those Google offices those really fun creative and creative cultures. And then when we get into education, which is going to be the focus of this talk, you know we're really looking at how do we maximize the human experience of learning. This is the official definition from our National Council for qualification. A few words I just want to highlight is that you know we are a specialized branch of architecture, and a lot of people confused that because what the world of architecture became so complex since the industrial revolution, and our space demands and even if you think about what's happened with coven. It's mounting up so much that architecture needed interior design as a second branch to really focus on the deep human needs and so we really are focused on health safety and welfare, but ultimately it's about enhancing the human experience overall. Now as part of this is we're just not artistic creators we combine art and science very equally. In fact, our faculty tends to to ride those lines and we have some faculty that focus only on research and others that would be your more traditional very, you know, traditionally creative designer if you will. But we do employ evidence based methodologies, as well as creative design processes to develop these solutions. Maybe anything that that you would add to that. Sure, just briefly to there are just under 300 accredited interior design programs in North America and then a few outposts in in around the world. And interestingly, Metropolis magazine just compiled a new ranking, the future 100 that looked at the rising student leaders who are positioned as change makers in the field, the top 50 architecture students the top 50 interior students this just came out. Really a few months ago, and the University of Florida had the second most interior design students on the list and so this was the inaugural Metropolis future 100, and they submitted portfolio applications they had letters, there were quite a few materials and they hail from some of the best interior design and architecture schools in the US and Canada says from from Harvard to the California College of the Arts, and the University of Florida. We came in second place in terms of having the most, we had five students who made this list from interior design. And I think part of the reason why we are so strong is because we really view that evidence based design approach is really linking research into the design process and use research as a springboard for innovation. We understand that process, a lot of the process that we use for human centered design, it follows any standard model for creative process where you generate ideas you test them and implement them. I think the one thing that distinguishes human center design is the amount of empathy that we put at the top of the process that we don't view ideas just coming out of the artist mind they need to come from the people that we are serving. They need to come from the leadership of the organization they need to come in combination with the leadership and the users that we're serving so that's very important. Really quick just to give you some insight into how we work we do work through a studio learning model this is actually the classroom where we designed the, the, the projects from our science library. 50% of our work is team based in the studio 50% is individual and wherever possible we try to work with real world design problems with real world stakeholders because we really think that's an important aspect to learning. Students like these working with the libraries are very critical, and a very valuable resource to us. Here you can see some students presenting work to some of those real world stakeholders, getting feedback. Again, one of the main reasons that we look at real world stakeholders you know designers, and particularly interior design, we solve real world issues for companies, businesses, hospitals. And so really what's really important is that we're just not designing good spaces we have to design spaces that that respond to change to a changing world. So we're really focused on emerging trends and paradigm shifts that are happening out in the world and we almost let those surface. For driving our students decision and, and also the other reason is that design is not one size fits all students need to learn that all research libraries are not the same they'll have commonalities but there are differences. And so I think that's really the value and what's been going on in the paradigm of higher education that's been affecting classrooms and also libraries is just a very rich situation to look at right now. So, after we, after we started working with Marston, I just want to give you a little insight as to why it fits so much. Traditionally, I had done a junior studio focusing on learning environments, and we really primarily focused on the classroom and had had very little intersection with working with libraries and so some of this was a natural extension. But by showing you an example of one classroom we renovated within our within our program it might give you guys a little bit of a window into the bigger picture of library so I'd like to go over that now. So let's go ahead as a group. So this is what I walk my students through as we start to approach education environments. Do you guys if you look at this picture, or just go ahead and unmute and speak out are there any issues or barriers that you see in this classroom that we should maybe consider addressing the way the seats are set up. Every student in front of the student behind them walks people's view they can't see the instructor. Yep, so they did slope the floor a little bit to try to do that so yeah so their, you know, sight lines might be an issue here what else do you guys notice. There's not much space between the students chairs they're really crammed in there really cramped right. That's also what I was going to mention that they're really cramped they don't have enough room to spread out like you can see a notebook piled on things but you can actually open the notebook, or the binder so so I heard a lot of physical things what about socially. There's no room for group work here. Exactly. If I wanted to put people into groups, the room has a very stiff barrier to that in fact it's practically impossible. I don't want to say impossible but definitely uncomfortable to work in groups like say groups of four. So what else, maybe even philosophically if you start thinking about what we're seeing is everyone kind of on the same page right now. If you look really closely you'll see. Yeah, go ahead make, and we have some insight from Donnell in the in the chat. There's not a lot of opportunity to flow from one area of this. Yeah, movement is definitely facilitated. How about who has the information in the room. The information is up front isn't it. Eyes up front right isn't the teacher, the one that's expected to have all the information but look at all the information resources, students have at their fingertips. They have a voice in the classroom. Socially do they feel comfortable speaking in a giant auditorium like this. Is there a hierarchy between the teacher and the student I think you get the idea we can keep going deeper into this. But these are the issues we start questioning as design we we not are just looking at physical things, but social things, interaction individual productivity. And being health in the environment. So, you know, the question is, have our classrooms really changed over over time. And I think you might agree this sort of looks like sort of a traditional lecture hall that you see quite quite commonly around. I'll offer this up as comparison this is a 14th century illuminated manuscript showing Henry Germany. And in the Western tradition of education, I would argue that not much has changed we're still viewing the person at the front of the classroom, as the gatekeeper of knowledge in the room. And we're sort of perpetuating this older system of learning which up until recently had worked very well for us. But, but now with the way we access information it's so different and I also want to point out some of the commonalities apparently they, they realized sometimes it could get boring just as much. So again just just a little humor for you day, but you know we talked about the future education but we extend the same model to many online courses and it's not to say it's wrong, but there are other ways of learning that we can perpetuate. And I see a lot of similarity between these three and that is that we're really facilitating this one way approach or content based approach to learning where transmission flows from the person who knows the call the content to that who is receiving that sort of create a hierarchy we've all heard the term sage on the stage. Not all teachers are that way but but sometimes this can lead to passive engagement from students that that engagement can sometimes suffer in these environments. So when we start looking at sort of modern approaches and even what we're calling they call them 21st century learning skills but I'd like to point out we're getting pretty far into 21st century now but a lot of companies are, a lot of companies are looking for what students know specifically but how they think and operate perhaps when they don't know everything. So if we really start to look at what shifted I think there's a lot of similarities between what libraries are dealing with versus what we as educators are dealing with. And it really just describes why learning spaces must be different today. I think the first is the shifts and who has the keys right. Libraries used to be the resource faculty used to be the keys of knowledge but that's, that's evolved that's change our role is definitely change shifts and how students access and process information photos like this send willies up my spine. This is how students will sometimes take notes in these classrooms. These are all cues that something's broken that something's wrong. And also the world is changing so fast that rather than teaching content only that we also need to teach for agility, adaptability and resilience and that really means learning from failures, developing a growth mindset versus a fixed content base mindset. So, just kind of in summary when we look at this from an educational perspective, you know, education is historically taught us about the world outside ourselves with a very objective fact based pedagogy. It also trends into the developmental side what can I learn about myself and my own inner world, but really where we're where we're needing to go with learning spaces is to develop learning about myself in the world what's a holistic pedagogy how do I position myself in there in the one area we're looking at that is active learning environments. How do we really bring that holistic approach to bear. Is there anything else to know I love the way you presented this. And we also have to talk about which, which we is the elephant in the room of this pandemic that is continuing on. How do we had talked about Maslow's hierarchy in our first session of, there's some core physiological basic needs for having shelter, for example, for example, you know having a certain air quality, you know that's an expectation, being able to have functional, you know, lighting functional restrooms, and then you continue to move up to more of a self actualization. So I think the students, having gone through this process we gathered data throughout the process the pandemic is not operating on on our time frame, you know, we're, we're, we're fatigued now we're tired of a work we're over it as the students would say, but the pandemic. It's a new era there's no returning to normal, right. And even the students and are the way we gathered data the way the students design the studio, all of that has changed. Right. So if we look at the role of interior design and this I'm really quickly I know you guys are excited to see some of the student insights but I did want to pause a minute just to talk about sort of the value of looking at interior design at this level. This was a classroom we changed within our college that we involved, we're involved with steel case interior design department but this was our classroom before not so different technologies at the front of the room. You know there's at least flexibility in the seating, but it was still sort of an eyes forward content based room. This is what we changed it into back in 2011. And I just want to talk really quickly. So the difference between this and what those content based classrooms were looking like. First, there is no front to this classroom we've sort of removed that teaching stage. The teacher can actually start class sitting next to students if they want, they can stand in the middle, but there is this automatic reduction of hierarchy. Students sit pace to face and teams so I can immediately address the whole classroom, or I can address the team level without any, without any change, sight lines are consistent around the room everybody can see everyone else's work. All the devices can be shared at either a team or a classroom level, and then there's also equal ownership of all the classroom resources right everyone gets a marker board, everyone gets a screen chairs can be on wheels and move around and so it really starts to create a very different dynamic. I don't know if you can read all of these but just I think you can see it, but I think this slide sort of says it all you can actually see the difference in dynamic just in the way classes running students are actually up on the marker boards before class starts, writing out information. What I want to see is is that really our role of interior designers and why we did this research project was to really what barriers are we creating with our infrastructure decisions. And I think you know Laura mentioned one that really came out in the research which was, you know the need to address the individual, so that we can make sure collaboration can still happen properly. So student well being. What is the experience of the library that that we want to enhance. And then also what is the culture because I think while you don't control culture, the spaces we may shape who we are as people and embody those values and so really thinking not only about the mechanics of the space but what is it culturally that you're wanting to achieve. So looking at the Mars and science library project as as Meg mentioned we had five floors in the building. We decided to focus on two floors in this building and these were the two floors that you assess, which was the fifth floor and the entry level. So that was for students to have the sort of deal with the way the building stacks socially. But they could also question it but we did want to see like, okay, we know that the research findings were saying that there are these individual issues how do we solve for the individual. And then also some other things that were expressed by the library staff was, how do we do special events like how do we manage events like hackathons and other things that really put extra demands on space and sort of shift people out. So the interior design students were asked to work in teams, teams of four so we ended up with five teams of four, and they were asked to redesign these two levels of the floor. Do you guys want to talk about the kickoff Laura, since you were a part of that. So, we brought the students into Marston to room 136, which is a large space in the basement, and it's a collaborative room it's got presentation space. So we just basically took them through all of the findings, including, you know, the spatial analysis what Adrian had done with the spatial analysis and, and then talking about the survey and what we felt we had gotten from the survey. What the survey did provide is we had a lot of open text questions. And so the survey actually kind of started the process of, you know, gathering qualitative data that build in some of these, you know, what they want, and how they want to see it. And with actually them articulating things about the space and you would get, you know, very divergent views of, you know, I want something that looks like Harry Potter to something that, you know, I want whiteboards and comfy chairs and bean bags and more technology so it was, it really ranged quite a bit. And then we, we brought forward the focus group results which included a focus group with our library workers because they are in the space all the time and seeing how different people use this space, moving furniture and asking for different services or resources. And so it was one more area of feedback that we thought was important to collect and so we shared that with the students and then they, they took that and they ran with it. Right. And one thing we did do was summarize sort of the research findings into design drivers we just didn't throw all the data and said here go go design. There was a matter of sort of synthesizing that for them. And I think Jason to it's important to note you had two graduate students that helped also facilitate studio and kept the information flowing and they were absolutely critical role as well. They definitely did. And so students were given the work you're going to see they created in these teams in four weeks. They got daily in class feedback from instructors grad students as well and then at the end they presented back to the stakeholder group so I wish I could show you all of them but we'll we're going to focus just on on two main ones and then you'll see little snapshots of other and so we're looking at the one team that they they saw for both floors but I wanted to highlight this teams first floor. This was part of their presentation but this is the overall floor plan that this team developed and just to sort of give you an idea, the upper corner. I don't know if you can see my, my error, let me. Yes. Yeah, my arrow. Yep. Okay, so if you look up here this is sort of the main entry. We go into the elevators here. So the first zone we're going to look at is going to be sort of this front zone and there was a little outdoor area that some students took advantage of in their design. So one thing that was in this building prior as students noticed that this main entrance which you see on the left in this bank of window walls this bank of window walls was all private offices. And one thing the students really identified early on was, wow, these private offices are just really blocking the visual access to what's going on inside the library and so they really started to conceptualize. In the library just not be a place to go study but a place to meet. Hey, let's go meet at the library. So that was some of the thoughts that were brought into these earlier spaces so you'll notice they're a little more social they're a little bit more conversational a little bit more loud, but by removing those offices and putting in this this window wall they were really able to open up that intersection but not only that but create an outdoor space that that stretches out to invite participation to make Marston a location to be at and to be welcoming at a certain level. And also in that adjacent area they really wanted to make sure special events and information sharing cross pollination would would be done and so they envisioned having either video walls or screens in these areas to really highlight upcoming events and and let that be visible even outside as students walk by. You'll see in the background a little bit of special collections trying to let the special collections have a little bit more of a of a presence in that in that entry sequence and let me. Can you go back to. Yes, yes. So the other thing about taking a biophilic approach to this is lighting is incredibly important to students and being able to maintain it. So putting that fenestration and pulling the natural light in. Did you know on on the back wall, you also have included the opportunity for the light to penetrate even further into the interior, and you have you have ambient lighting you have task lighting notice how that plays throughout the space and students are are really cognizant that the library is is is open. Many, many hours from early. I don't know Laura you can tell us in the hours have changed a bit with the pandemic, but you know we even in Florida it's not sunny here every day and so getting that feeling of of the natural lighting and and how that makes people feel was was something that was really considered and celebrated by the student designers. An architectural lighting artificial lighting also has the ability to be properly applied to support that further. You can create spaces with lighting that have a feeling of being outside without necessarily having a view to so there are things that you can highlight things particularly perimeter lighting if you look at the back wall with the special collections there's been perimeter lighting put back there sort of makes the wall visually start to evaporate while highlighting that space. This is critical and even nowadays we're looking at well being standards and buildings, we're starting to tune light to circadian rhythms, so that the light starts off warm in the morning turns blue in the afternoon to actually stimulate your body and then back to warm in the in the evenings. So once we then walk from there we're going to then move into this more central area where this this student group with the circulation desk and some other seating types. One thing they were really wanting to do with the circulation desk is make it feel very accessible push it out into the space, really does not make it something you had to find lower surfaces just for, you know, 80 accessibility. So in this area we have circulation materials sort of tucked in the middle with two private offices tucked behind there that can that can also serve the circulation desk. We also thought this office might be good for say research librarian. So with the screen out here they actually thought of making a research librarian a lot more visible and accessible and giving them a space to work side by side with students, sort of through research consultations, just a variety of seating in here. I think the students could have densified this a little more personally one thing to note these are junior students right so they're doing some great ideas but you do have to, you know filter these through I think season designers so. I think these in mind that that these are developing students but they're really top notch students. What you can see here was a little bit of an attempt to deal with a higher race ceiling space in the atrium and try to do a little bit of a custom light fixture that starts to nod towards the sense of place that this is a science library. In 3D printing their library has a bakery space on this floor. Currently it's sort of behind glass and it's sort of sends a vibe that maybe it could be more accessible so students students really thought about having sight lines of this area to to the circulation desk. And then also having this area staffed and letting 3D printing start to be a little bit more of a walk by and maybe be encouraged to join or ask questions sort of an experience. So again removing barriers to access is important. We're then going to move back into some of the active learning spaces that you see here. Again, this was just part of the program we wanted to include an active learning environment within this now the students were also strategic to make one wall articulate out of the way so this this could join the bigger space to be part of hackathons or other special events again looking at flexibility. You can see a little bit of the branding towards this being a science library they're playing with zeros and ones because we do have computer science as part of the palette of sciences. Jason one quick thing if we go back on just as an example with the node chair. If you look that chair is not just on casters that it actually has a storage space that you could put a backpack or if you add a satchel, you put that and then if you're going to reconfigure and you have a group of eight or a group of three. You don't have to worry about, you know, trying to, you know, jump up and worry about where where that backpack is going to go and so the known chairs, it was a collaboration between still case and idea and really came up with a nice solution here. Right. So further looking at, I sort of like the sophistication of this sense of place that they've done they've sort of abstracted the biological world and trees. Bringing sort of a nice sense of calm and definition here but then also again bringing in some of those computer science motifs was pretty interesting. I think we're going to use this team also to design the fifth floor what you see here but I thought I would take you into a another team solution on the fifth floor. So the fifth floor is a smaller footprint in this building the building tapers a little bit as it as it goes up. And on this floor this was really about solving for the individual. And so in this floor, this particular student group really wanted to give it a more of an informal sort of quality that people could sort of feel like it is a home away from home it to a certain extent. So you'll see some different treatments of furniture. Also spatial dividers. So I'll try to highlight some of the more interesting ones one thing to note is just the different types of postures they're trying to do rocking chairs more lounge based furniture. They'll also see some desks, some stool height furniture. I think this was a really good solution of of how we can start addressing the individual if you look at this window wall rather than creating a booth for multiple people. You can create a booth for one and really start to look at the density you could, because people do like to spread out so. So if we make the booth as wide as they need but not as deep as a two person booth. You can start to split some of that difference to increase density within the space. There's even seating you can start to do to be on the floor. And I think one thing this student group did they even started thinking about how we could even start to take that density to some pretty fun levels. There's a lot of study lofts almost like a loft bed mirror, but in the library space where underneath those loft beds they have some desk seating but in other cases they have some floor based lounge seating. If a student wants to recline back a little bit more. So they might be able to do that as well. One thing to that I'd like to add is generally these spaces tend to be more populated by the graduate students and what we know about the graduate students they use the Marsden lab library is many of them are getting into these in the natural sciences they're working in labs, and there are constraints on that lab space and so wanting one of the kind of the assumptions that that that some of us on the design side and maybe even on the library side had was that they wanted to maintain, you know that the carols that that sacred quiet space and, but yet there was a bit more of a social community in an ideal space for these graduate students. We heard a pet shant for, we want to have a little bit more of a fun space we want it still to be quiet we want you know the individual study areas, but we are doing group work as well and so I. I think that we were really delighted by seeing how the design students really ran with this information. And the view from one of the loft beds just thought it was an interesting playful concept. I think one thing that's very important when thinking about library space and I think this view kind of summarizes it. When you start removing stacks from the footprint of the library you end up with big seas of space. And I think one thing that's very important to think about is how do you put masses back out on the floor plate that subdivide the floor plate into neighborhoods you're just not designing in a big sea like the cafeteria full of furniture, but how do you really start to craft different zones and so I think you can see that in the sense of these panel wall systems start to do that but you can also do it with with boxes of rooms on the floor plate can be really important. So it's just sort of two run throughs of a complete group project is what we want to give you a little bit more of a snapshot, just sort of from across all the projects just into these individual individual areas and then we want to make sure we have about a half hour left we want to make sure we give you plenty of time for discussing the question so I'll see but again talking about sense of place. I think the most important thing would be that it's really your chance to make the culture that you want to perpetuate or the culture you already have tangible, and it is sort of a subtle branding. It's not so different than what Apple does with all its products and spaces so so really thinking about particularly your particular university and the values that are operating there how do you start to bring those forward in a certain way. You can also set social expectations I think one thing about this area this area starts to be a little bit more playful. But yet it doesn't do it in a mocking way it sort of becomes fun through the use of color through the use of things but it does start to still promote a aura of professionalism as well. This one, this has a much more informal side up here so again thinking of those sliders between formal and informal space. Again, what we see in as trends right now are to start breaking down spaces is third place spaces that become more informal and like we see that in the workplace as well as in education in between spaces, and it can be as subtle as just little subtle touches that let you know you're in a science library, the students use of science as art, I think was a really interesting notion. And I think, when you go to that abstract level it's so much better than, you know, in that that last slide where it's, it's, it's creating more of a word cloud. Yeah, I think that doesn't learn cloud was not appropriate. Yeah. It doesn't have the same energy and so you can, you can see, and again the process is the student can show this this week and then get critique and then have several other alternatives sort of, you know, moving, moving forward, keeping what really works well in this space as well. It's a neat idea the students had in terms of massing back on that floor plate to divide up the space the circular mass really kind of draws you and encourages movement throughout the space. It also subdivides it into different neighborhoods and on the inside of that is a is a round room of resources and printers and things of that nature so kind of becomes a resource hub. So this is that the big one we talked about which was really how do we, how do we encourage collaboration by addressing this overwhelming need of the individual. I think you guys already intuitively know that I saw a lot of head shaking but here's a just a picture of another library where you can sort of see three territories of clusters of four people that are intended to be groups and then the first one we see a group using it. The last two you see individuals occupying it. So if you really look at analyzing this cluster. We have three territories so if we max out the potential by groups you could have three groups of four in this space could serve 12 people. But if you then start maxing this out by individuals well the minute one person sits in any of those zones it sort of becomes their defensible space or their territory. And so I know a lot of times when we start looking at budgets right we say oh well, we don't have enough money to deal with the individuals and the way we need, well, the thing is is from a cost standpoint. You know if individuals are end up using these spaces, and it does take it away from a group, you know you're not maximizing your space you're spending about three times much more for the three chairs that aren't being utilized so it's. I think that that can be quite an ordeal again going back to this one where you can sort of see a different density here. In fact, side by side, these are about equivalent in square footage. In terms of how you can start to address it. And again I think it's still providing well why does somebody want to sit at these groups spaces because they can spread out so if you do create an individual area. The width, the width they need but maybe not perhaps the depth that you would take to do this for for a group as well. And also provide providing variety and seating. Here's another example where a student sort of did the one booth kind of kind of seating it's maybe not as wide as it needs to be, but even looking at different levels of privacy by bringing that panel on up they started to make it more secluded than the ones you see here with the with the lower panels by the window. And again, I think we've already walked through that one. The other thing is looking at palette of posture because sometimes we might think of using lounge seating only for collaborative conversation zones or conversation groupings. It might be important thinking about the individual that you provide an individual with a lounge chair option that you provide an individual with a stool you provide an individual with a booth so just making sure there's sort of parity between us but just looking at all the different ways we can interact. And this is a prime example these students ended up showing this, probably how it would start to lay out with individuals occupying a space so this this image isn't showing a good portion of space but just look at all the differences that we can sit we can sit at table height we can sit on lounge we can sit on stool. Again three different posture options here from sitting on the floor to reclining back in a in a more tablet recliner mode to to again sitting in a booth. There are a lot of places that you can find and carve out I think some of these shapes are not really conducive to leaning I think the one on the right needs to be refined a little bit but I think the the red shape starts giving me some thoughts about just little places. People can find and cubby up and we saw a lot of students putting furniture down low stretching out on the floor or stretching out and in some lounging position so so again sort of analyzing that everything's not just a table that there may be a variety. And palette of posture really does go to well being it allows you to move throughout the day. So even there are desks with walking treadmills that can be utilized to support well being and movement during work. And I thought this was an interesting thought towards well being we had some students actually starting to think about lights that change color and we start thinking about people that are on the spectrum is a growing population rooms like this could potentially start to provide some support for them. This biophilic connection to nature came up in the data. And one thing to realize is it's great to have used to the outside of natural light but a lot of times we don't always have it. But when you start thinking about lighting and texture and pattern and materiality there's a lot you can do to be very suggestive of it so here's an example where the the main window wall is quite far away in the distance it's a nighttime view so it's kind of hard to see but they really tried to foster a connection to letting that light come in deep. They're playing with sort of organic forms and even brought in a living wall around around a help desk area. And so, just the use of natural woods and things can start to create these this is a floor plan just to show you how they conceived of this sort of central penetrating zone, connecting to the outdoor space and just sort of creating a seamless bridge inside outside. I thought they could have pushed it further in all honesty but the general idea is quite sound. And then just even looking here, here we have the great views on this this floor but even going further into the introduction of plants and just the softness and some of the more natural movements do create sort of a more peaceful calming and natural quality to it. And I think therein to you have lighting and materiality and texture and we live in north central Florida, almost as far away as you can get from a beach and be in Florida. And so in Elizabeth, our claim to fame is if you have been here is being under a live oak canopy with Spanish moss and that permeates the campus there's just lush and gorgeous and really kind of exciting landscape and bringing that in, and the designers are working with color but it's within a limited palette seeing what the full spectrum of greens are and really working with and playing with that interesting and subtle and sophisticated applications of tone and texture and light. The last area we're going to look at is probably one of the most critical I hope to drive home for you guys, or that we hope to drive home for you guys. And that is really thinking of space as an ecosystem across a few different dimensions. And it's ultimately when we talk about supporting creativity at both team and individual levels. It's about maximizing choice and control, keeping in mind that choice and control will be eroded by overcrowding right because when we get too many bodies in the room that choice and control diminishes and so I think the first thing is knowing where are you standing on your shoulders and how do you balance the numbers of people and utilization in the building, but then how do we balance it out. This is a model proposed by steel case, but it's in the environment and behavior literature that really put space on four different dimensions. We have the I spaces that's when I'm alone we have the we spaces that's when I'm together. And across those two dimensions we either have areas that were publicly or sharing with other people at that moment or we're just needing a private space or we're just needing more privacy so privacy is running the vertical dimension and then group or alone as the horizontal. And this is just a quick image that that they generate showing that that your best solutions, always create a system of these choices on any given floor plate or zone within a building or an office and that allows you to kind of easily flex and naturally flow from one to the other and if you think about it from a work day, you might work behind your desk but then you have a meeting you run to or then you have to brainstorm with somebody or you have to go do some kind of interaction social interaction. So, these things play out in the library so just jumping back to some of these slides you can see the connection. A space for an individual can be a little bit more shared and a little bit more publicly present as part of it's an eye in a community that's sort of like going to the coffee shop versus you can start to do some shielding that gives you more privacy or you can even enclose somebody in a room, all sorts of phone booth designs nowadays that allow for individuals to work alone. Looking at how screens can start to create sense of privacy and open areas. And again being intentional about it I think I've seen one design on another building on campus it wasn't a library, but where mobile market boards got taken over by students not to actually write on, but to sequester themselves and claim their own reality sort of selfishly so. So again, these things are there aren't they are complex. I think this one's interesting because we see some I public seating in terms of one sided tables, where students can sit but then also that back wall for that is a we private space, but that wall can articulate back out of the way and then it can join for a larger sort of hackathon or other type of larger live area event. In fact, I think the students even designed those those lower table areas and higher areas to allow for workstations for for special events or take display tables. If we start looking at the student examples as we start analyzing space based on choice and control. This is what that looked like on that one first level floor plate and so you see we have all those four pallets of dimension and in this serve several functions. You'll notice here that more of the we shared spaces are are evident out here and that's because this is naturally a louder floor. It's a floor to be seen and and and to be heard and and to gather large groups together so it makes sense, but at the same time you still need to provide. Some of the blue areas that there is still seating that allows for individuals to still filter in there. And if you can make them as comfortable or even more comfortable than those collaborative ones you're probably going to be optimizing your real estate. A little bit better. When we shift this on up to the upper floor for this particular group. We still provide the ecosystem, but you want to think of ecosystem is there's a macro feeling of the floor and so for this floor since it's mostly I shared spaces and I own spaces we're still trying to keep this for quiet. You'll notice this group did put a, a acoustically isolated area for for weird, we shared activities up there. And a lot of these were in more enclosed spaces to start to create some of that variability. So just keeping in mind that even if a floor has an overall vibe you can still provide that flex, you know within it. And this to the end of our presentation where we, we thought we would sort of in the last, we've got about 1520 minutes here. I thought we wanted to make sure we opened it up to questions for the three of us, but we also thought we would sort of round table okay what is the benefit of of doing these collaborations. Any questions for us as a team, in terms of the benefits we saw the outcomes, because I think we, we saw a lot of benefits and then also if you guys have any questions for your own spaces that you're wrestling with I mean we have designers in the room so I think we'll just round table it Meg do you want to, you want to leave this part here. You know, quickly, we, we met frequently in spite of not being able to have those face to face meetings that that's kicked off and to find the original collaboration. Val, I'd see these 8am, you know, invites for our, you know, ARL meetings, and I think that what was so exciting was, was actually the thing is, and Laura can give you the rest of the story is we have funding to make some of these ideas a reality. And that was an unexpected byproduct of this which was really exciting. So again from the design side. The University of Florida is is is a large, you know land grant flagship campus in the state of Florida, and we operate on a very tight infrastructure oftentimes have a pretty tight budget. When, when design can get involved, and we can really shape these students that help optimize the student experience help create community when students are feeling isolated with the biofilia helping really in the case with student even mental health issues and that feeling that that so many of us also have a lack of connection lack of meaning. It's very exciting for us to do this, and I think this library project in collaboration has been one of the most rewarding we have worked with the law school with mathematics with physics with biology with psychology with the Jewish Jewish studies center as well as the Center for African American Studies. All of these are exciting engaging it's exactly what we want to do with our upper division students and working with the team as you know engaging as Laura and Belle and you know Sarah and Sheila it was just great and Adrian, but Laura what do you what do you think in terms of benefits for. We have a question from Eva as well. Yeah, okay. Go ahead, Eva, and then I'll come back around. That's so much a question is a comment what what what I think is another really interesting benefit is, I think, so I'm a librarian. I work at a service point in a in a crowded area. I don't know how the users interact with the space. So, it was so gratifying to hear from an interior design, the experts say if you have that. If you don't address that individual need, then those group tables are taken up by one person. This all the time I think other librarians know that, but collaborating with other experts who then also have data. I think that helps us communicate upwards to advocate for changes to our spaces that make sense and then will also be used in the way that that we envision it and meeting those those needs. So that was a benefit I think that was very unique to this to this collaboration so I just wanted to highlight that that really gives us a lot of ammo to to communicate upward to our admin to that kind of decision making level in a way that makes sense and then we're we're also using our professional resources as well as our kind of lived experiences. That's a really great point is when it's evidence based. It really you can make a very compelling case and the other piece just briefly is I know if you get involved in advancement or fundraising. When you have spaces designed by students for students and we can visualize this. You can really get potential donors excited and we have seen that happen again and again and again so while we do have, you know, some state support to make to really realize the ideal spaces you do often need private fundraising, and having open spaces that are designed for students by students guided by licensed architects and designers is just a win win. And getting images from it from this process could potentially be what's needed to get a donor, you know, to get excited about something but if I think one thing I would build on with that is there's other precedent that education tends to follow the history of the business world right and if we look at what's happened with offices, we started off in a world of private offices and then in the 60s and 70s we opened it up with cubicles and and then in the name of collaboration we we almost erased privacy from the expertise and experience in that corporate office and so now we've reached this privacy crisis in the corporate world that now we're realizing no it's it's about this ecosystem it's not it's not it's not this trend it's not just because libraries are now forced with this need for creativity it doesn't mean the utilization is still more towards the loan student with their heads down getting some work done I mean there's there. But that said, it's it's in a different way so even thinking about how do you take students, how do we optimize every lever to where it's on a continuum, and that is formality and formality alone together playful seriousness like every single thing if you decide choice and control and then do your best looking at densification I think that's the the main challenge is what I see right now in a lot of libraries across the country, and even a few of the other ones on our campus is the stacks are gone they clear it and then it's this giant C of sameness that that just the it doesn't allow for what needs to happen and so by looking at this ecosystem it really it really not only answers what you need right now but if you think about if you think about not thinking of space prescriptively, instead of saying, oh we need a conference room, don't say conference room, you need a we private space. And, and we start looking at things from this four point framework because a we private space can be turned into an I private space temporarily. If somebody uses it right. Any of these things can shift and adapt and so by not being proprietary about space this is also tied to resiliency, because as coven hits by not saying this is the conference room. This is that this is that and you can even look at a conference room could be turned into workstations just by how the furniture is is configured within the space so I think the more you can think about. How do you maximize. Well, first you have to know what your need is, how many individuals versus versus group, and then you have to do everything to make the individual stuff. Sexier to the, to the students to go to go sit there so they aren't, you know, messing up your, your densification. You know, you can't control people's behaviors you can only suggest it so it's not to say it's a cure all but but if it's done right and thoughtfully. And it usually comes down to that furniture budget so what I would say is the more you're just not ordering your own furniture but working with either you know vendors have on staff and tier you know larger vendors like steel case or Herman Miller they have on staff. Interior designers that would have that expertise to really make sure you're getting the most bang for your buck, they'll help you to to also save money and still get a solution that works. You know, if that's necessary, but I also think looking very closely at adjacency and territoriality is really where you're going to get the most bang for your buck because then then space really starts to work in all dimensions for you. Any other questions in the group. Laura what would you say then was the biggest benefit from your guys perspective kind of going back to you know since you're in this library group here you know that maybe you could speak to how they might consider reaching out to some programs on their. So, I think, you know we were lucky to have, you know, design construction and planning, you know, as an entity on campus and doing the kind of work that they do. We had a study previously conducted by Sheila Bosch who was on our research team and and she did an an obtrusive observation of student use of library spaces in Marston, a couple of years ago and that's kind of where, you know, I first I mean I read bowling alone, but this is, you know, definitely related to the study and, you know, and kind of witnessing how people, you know, really is actually what it brought to us is the way to articulate what we already were seeing. You know, we were, you know, when I coach librarians on assessment I tell them, you know, don't discount your anecdotal observations, that's where you start, and then you, but you marry that with data and other ways of looking at what you're seeing. So, having this group with us, we really, you know, we're able to draw an expertise, gain new language to use to talk about, you know, biofilia, you know, I never use that word before, but it made all kinds of sense in this, you know, and especially seeing these things in the data that was really, really helpful and it kind of gave us a way to direct the project, which we didn't really know how we were going to do that. It gave us a lot of tools to use to, you know, to talk about it to collect the data, and then, you know, to bring some analysis and, you know, having other academic faculty be a part of it I was able to indulge myself in, you know, a little bit more analysis and really kind of connecting and really to achieve what is one of the goals of the Research Library Impact Framework, which is to produce something that's scalable. And, you know, we haven't had a really good chance to test that Stephanie's team at Syracuse, you know, deployed the survey, but they were constrained by COVID as well. And so participation rates, you know, were a struggle for them, but you know, and we have similar things. And so we still really look forward to an opportunity at least I do, you know, working this out with another location and seeing, you know, post COVID, and in a different environment, how does this translate and have we really produce something that meets, you know, one of the purposes of this project. So, from that perspective, it really gave us an opportunity, you know, to go for all of those objectives. So questions. I shared the survey last week. And we're going to share out all our slides at the end of the three workshops, but certainly we're happy to share anything that we, you know, shown. So feel free to get in touch with us. We don't have our slides up anymore but I'm putting in the chat. It's okay. In the chat. You know, I just want to make a plug for workshop three and that's going to be a deeper dive into the analysis of the data and, you know, kind of connecting everything together with the way that we approach this. So, thanks, Jason, and other questions or comments. I just want to thank Meg and Adrian and Jason because this was just such a great opportunity to work with some incredibly creative people who, you know, looked past book stacks and saw other potential for our spaces so it was really, really a joy to do this project. I think, didn't you feel Laura and you know Jason and Adrian I mean just hearing the voices of the students I mean these libraries. They don't want them to become, you know, Commons they don't want them to become student unions. They really. Students were pretty passionate about the role of the library and how important that was and, you know, again, at all levels from first year students through masters and graduate students. It was interesting hearing from the international students and, and the library is is really, I view it as a, you know, as a sacred space on campus and really hearing how strongly they feel about this space and there was a lot of palpable excitement. We didn't have people drifting off from the focus groups I mean they were really engaged and they could have, I think continued the conversation for, you know, even, even, you know, much longer to so, so that was interesting to me, and I and it was heartening. It looks like you may have one more question before we before we close and thank everyone was in the chat. Oh, different spaces in the room. Yeah, so the questions were there any discussions about specific space room so yoga wellness lactation etc meditation, you know I think that's a very important point. You know, nowadays, these are almost required in the corporate world and again we're always catching up in in education for, I think, providing these things and I think wellness, you know, a specific wellness room so if somebody isn't, you know, feeling well, they can go but I also think making sure in this context I would make sure it's probably adjacent to some connection to further wellness resources but I like the idea of well being to be employed as a broad brush brush across, but then thinking are there spaces students could safely go into you know, you would want to locate those types of things where there is some observation I think from library staff if you're going to have specific wellness rooms from a security standpoint but I think providing those would be very important I think also if you saw the slide about one one group had an idea of having a room where you could change color LEDs shift the lighting to what you really want it again. The more you can give people control the more you do contribute to their ability to garner wellness to so I think that that's a very important aspect, and also provide enough facilities that that we are keeping crowding in check because again crowding also does, you know, can cause issues so I think thinking about special populations, you know you might also think about you know we're talking about a broad, you know, general group of users but we do have special populations from, you know, people with different facilities to, and different needs to, you know, all sorts of issues, trying to trying to make maybe dedicated specific spaces for those needs would be very important, as well as just like ecosystem. Let me thank you. Thank you Jason, Megan Laura for another wonderful workshop. I've loved the, the images and pictures that you were sharing of different spaces and ideas. And I think you've set up a great teaser for the third workshop on May 4. So thanks again everyone for attending thanks to the US team for another great workshop, and we will see you all soon. Thank you for being here. And fun.