 Hello everyone and welcome to Smokes to the Urban Cycling Institute podcast and on today's show we have with us here Chris and Melissa Bruntlett were the authors of the very well-selling book Building the Cycling City the Dutch Blueprint for Urban Vitality. Thank you. I failed a few times that remembering that title so you two have been here for Nine months now in this country coming from Canada, right? Show them your gloves Chris They were actually a gift from the mayor of Ottawa. Yeah who was in the Hague for a Bit of a study tour so he came bearing gifts for the entire Dutch delegation and I explained to him why there was a Canadian there to Sell him on the idea of Dutch Cycling. That's awesome. So you you were here nine months ago, and you've been living in Delft ever since that's right. Yeah, we We'd actually never been to Delft, but Because both of our job opportunities for here we decided to take a take a shot somewhere small much smaller than where we came from and yeah, so far I think we'd both say we love it here Why you run us through the the experience of first landing here for the first time and then having I'd say the honeymoon phase where everything is amazing and Cycling and then how you feel about this place today Yeah, it's I mean We're still find ourselves pinching Ourselves almost every morning that we're here not only living in this place, but getting to do the jobs that we do And it really just began with a series of blog posts that we wrote in 2016 a Working holiday if you will to visit a series of Dutch cities and write about them for for our blog and that snowballed into the book that we wrote and almost three years of Lusting after What the Dutch had accomplished and wanting to be a part of it ourselves? So when we landed here in mid-February, it was quite surreal to actually You know have an apartment in Delft and to get to ride these cycle tracks that we had written about and photographed And toward the world talking about for such a long period of time Yeah, I mean this is this red asphalt this this these four meters of separated Cycling or something that most Dutch people now take for granted and we're starting to take for granted living here, but There's cities around the world that are This is where this is just a pipe dream. Yeah, and it's interesting. I think You know talking about starting to take it for granted We just left my office. I'm about a five minute bike ride going very slow from the office to house And I've actually changed my route Because the option was there and the other option had too much bike traffic So I decided to go a different route take a little bit of stress out of my morning And even add a little bit of time. So I get some exercise. I mean my commute back in Canada was 30 minutes easy by bike so and you lived in Vancouver Yeah, we were living in East Vancouver My daily commute involved a ride along the glorious seawall, which I do miss sometimes the seawall. Yeah but yeah, it's funny because I Sometimes I don't take it for granted and I think it's great that I have so many options and other times I'm just like don't even think about it. I get on my bike and I go and yeah, see where I end up and You two are parents of two kids, right? Yes. How are they doing on their transition? they're actually doing remarkably well and When we first are talking about this move back in Canada, I think we both really tried to emphasize that yeah The bikes are great here. Yeah, but from for us. I think the move was more about them and we saw that almost immediately moving here because Dutch kids just grow up with this greater sense of independence because These cycle tracks and because the cities have been slowed down. Yeah And so I think within a month of being here Our son was biking to visit a friend in a nearby town and we didn't think anything of it. Our daughter is like Typical teenager They're actually amazing And then their their education is the Dutch now, right? Their education is entirely in Dutch. Yeah, so they're Making Dutch friends or yesterday We heard our daughter speaking with several kids laughing and doing the teenage way of not really speaking to each other And it's it's really remarkable to see we're really happy. Yeah with how things are going with them And it's exactly why we wanted to come here with to give them the opportunity to have that independence and freedom and They're really thriving because of it. Wow Okay It's a great place to raise a kid, you know, that that's that's something that you talked a bit about in your book about how it's It's so friendly and and kids play on the street and that's right. Yeah. Yeah, so it was our Actually our 2016 visit to the Netherlands to Amsterdam specifically where the kids who were seven and nine at the time Really got their first taste of freedom and that we were letting them Go to the park in the corner store in our neighborhood in Amsterdam all by themselves just walking and and for them they really I Think it opened up the whole new world. So when it time it came time to come home After that experience of having that freedom, they were quite upset and actually cried when it was time to come back to Canada because they knew that virtually anywhere they would go in Vancouver they'd have to be escorted by mommy and daddy because It was basically a four or six lane road of 60 or 80 kilometer-hour traffic standing between them and the community center and their school and the shops and all the places They wanted to go so Like Melissa said, it's it's never really been about the bikes. It's been about the city's the way the Dutch have kept the car at arms length from from their cities and allowed people to move freely without being limited by By cars incredible. I just wanted to Make a note of the landscape that we're riding through that is a huge windmill right there in the middle of the city We got the canals. We got bikes It doesn't really get more Dutch than this does it? No Delft is is really kind of a Postcard city. Yeah, but one of the things we've we've really enjoyed over the last A few months is going back through the google street view and the archival photos and seeing what the streets of delft Used to look like 20 or 30 years ago this stretch that we're riding along for example There was an elevated railway viaduct that cut the city in half And the before photos are quite dramatic the entire city was Broken in two by this elevated railway with cars parked below it And the city spent 15 years and upwards of a billion dollars to bury the The train tracks and put in the canals and the green space and the cycle tracks and the tramways And and I think it's really emblematic of Dutch city's willingness to transform themselves And invest a lot of time and energy and money Wow into making their streets better and there's this continual improvements taking place that really Is now a privilege to be a part of You work for the Dutch Cycling Embassy chris and you've been Well traveling quite a bit all around the world. What are some highlights of that job in the nine months that you've been here? Yeah, what a tour. Yeah, so, yeah, the one of the reasons why we decided to pack up and move here is I was I received a job offer from the Dutch Cycling Embassy as their new marketing and communications manager Um, and that job has kind of been uh twofold We we do a lot of hosting of internal international delegations that come to the Netherlands On study tours of politicians and engineers. Yeah, uh, and the best part of that is just seeing As my director Lucas often says The twinkling people's eyes when they see and experience this cycling culture for the first time and they suddenly realize that their city can be Can be better can be different as well And then the second part of the the job is yes traveling overseas. We were just in Los Angeles and san francisco um holding workshops and presentations and trying to Help cities with their specific Context and challenges and and helping them find the opportunities to improve It's not always a Dutch Inspired one size fits all solution, but right there's always something some kind of inspiration They can take from here that they can apply to their own city Ah and uh melissa you've uh been working at another company in in Delft and that is the Movicon Yeah, it's it's pretty cool. So movicon is actually a very fortunate uh sort of accident in terms of a job almost Um, we were very familiar with the company because we had written about two of their employees lennart note and angel of endercliffe in the book, um And then happened to be in Ottawa Where they have had they have a Canadian office in Ottawa, Canada. Yeah, um who helped coordinate our book tour and And the event in Ottawa and the CEO Johan Diepens happened to be in town And I decided to be quite dutch about it and just said hey You need somebody for communications. I'm coming your way. Yeah And it worked out really well So I manage the international communications for movicon. So we have As it's a dutch company, they've got a very established team that does a lot of the dutch communications And then I support the team in uh In canada in the u.s. And then our All right, this is the one bad spot Hold that thought hold that thought i'm going to just get out of the way Okay And yeah, I also support our dutch colleagues that work in international markets We have people working in the uk and germany And we're exploring opportunities elsewhere in europe as well. Yeah, and it's really cool to Yeah, I mean I was doing a similar job in north america for urban funding from there With a much broader scope when it comes to urban funding and engineering because now very nice to be sort of Really sort of niche into promoting Transportation and cycling and walking not just in the netherlands and seeing what's happening here But also, you know helping to create those environments back in canada and I mean working on Projects or helping support projects in towns where we used to live that will go unnamed for now But it's really neat to see that connection of like the the job I had The the you know the work that we used to do now translating into helping companies here bring that knowledge there as well Now what do you think uh Are The the biggest difficulties That you've had the biggest difficulties in translating all this dutch awesomeness that you've been seeing and then In your trips back to north america and trying to explain it to people. Yeah, that's a really easy question Um at least for me anyways the the real difficulty lies in Uh, the dutch is so far advanced like we're talking 40 or 50 years from virtually everybody else They're building parking garages for 12 000 bikes. They're putting cycle paths on the roofs of schools Uh Most cities can't even imagine being at that place So the real challenge lies in giving them practical ground level ground steps Um first steps that they can take On that long and very difficult journey towards becoming uh a cycling city Um because I think when when especially when we have delegations come here from overseas Uh, it's easy to show off and and show all of this spectacular infrastructure and Uh, but unless you make it really practical and pragmatic for them Um That all that's showing off can be for naught because uh, they just don't know where to begin or they'll dismiss it As a lot something that works for their country that would never work here And it's something we really try to do with the book Um and something that we try to do both of us in our daily work and our social media presence Is making uh these concepts and ideas relatable and applicable to Other more car dominated contexts Cool and uh speaking of social media presence How did you grow? this thing uh modesty How did it become such a big heavy hitter and and when did you really I'd say like Hit it off like when there's a kink point where it kind of takes its life on its own like well It's an interesting sort of journey because I think we talk about it in the book We've talked about in presentations that chris and I really started out and Doing the same thing but in two very different places me from the perspective of a mom who's traveling around with her two kids and chris more from the um hedonistic perspective and writing marketing and promotion marketing and promotion and um really we were doing the same thing and I think it really Reached a pivot point in 2014 when we actually created modacity and decided to do more of a joint collaboration with The guiding principle that whatever we share whatever we do our main focus is to show The positive angles to to not try to get bogged down in the fights I mean we were still having the same fights at our local level still pushing for You know changes to infrastructure or a relaxation of certain archaic laws That we're applying to cycling and dissuading people from cycling Anyways, um anyways But that was our that was the point is that everything that we show Be attainable someone could understand the the positive as opposed to Really feeding into that really bikes versus cars mentality and I think that that is sort of how we made our mark is It's really focusing on The positive feelings that come from it. I think you made this brilliant observation in 2016 again when we were here documenting our stay in video and photographs and you observed that Dutch cycling content is like the cat videos But for urbanists, yeah, because you could put anything up there if it's a a kid or an elderly person Or a disabled person or just showing how universal cycling is here It will get shared and shared and shared again. Yeah, um, so we I think we just have A different eye coming here as outsiders What most Dutch people see is mundane the the perching of on the back rack of a bicycle You know giving a friend a lift the groups of teenagers riding around Oh, the groups of teenagers. Yeah, we gotta watch out for those to to most Dutch people. They're just Traffic But to us is there's a beautiful human element to it And and to us it's uh what all cities Should be striving for in terms of getting everybody cycling and not just the uh, the fit white dudes. Yeah Uh, it's interesting the the kids. I think In in Eindhoven, uh, where I do some lecturing During their frost week Everyone's on a bike. I thought yeah It's just brilliant and you can see the international students like struggling a bit, right? Because uh, it's some some of them. It's their like first time on a bike for a while And they're like weaving around and this is frost week. They're all drunk Yeah, and they're cycling to the bar. They're cycling the class. They're cycling to McDonald's They're just like any other students. They've just been given this other transportation option that happens to be All these great things healthy environmentally beneficial Uh, and and so yeah, I think that's kind of as Melissa said we we're focused on the positivity. We're focused on the humanity Uh, and we're trying to show how easy it can be if if you have a little bit of political vision and uh, and and some leadership at the Uh municipal level to to help make these changes, but it's not going to be easy Yeah Although the Dutch make it look easy So is there anything that you you miss about home? Oh, I mean, there's tons of stuff that we miss about home I mean, we're canadian. Yeah. Yeah. There's things that we'll always miss about Canadian culture or I have I will admit I have more maple syrup in my cover that people bring me Than the average person should My Dutch colleagues tease me a lot about it, but hey, whatever. It's good stuff Um, I mean when it comes to Vancouver, we we've obviously missed our friends Um, and I miss the ocean and the mountains But what we've traded that for here, um in terms of the quality of life And I think we both feel a lot less stressed feel a lot more happy the kids As I said, they're thriving and they both seem a lot happier here Uh, just by missing their friends back home. I think, you know, we know we've made the right right move for now Yeah, um, and there's just so much to discover in the Netherlands that we haven't had a chance to see yet And we're now like in the gateway to Europe. So It's hard to miss it when it's only been nine months talk to us maybe in five years and see how we're doing And you you took a train trip all the way to switzerland a few months back We did. Yeah, how long was that journey and uh, how was that experience being on a train for so long compared to I guess flying Yeah Yeah, we uh It was all over instagram With the you know with with having access to this kind of continent wide rail network for the first time We wanted to make use of it and and quite frankly, you know with the We find I think I can speak for both of us We find travel train travel a lot more relaxing in that you don't have the the pre-boarding process and the security lineups and The limited leg room and so we wanted to give it a try. Yeah, it was five connecting trains in 12 hours to get From delft to burn And then 15 hours coming home due to a couple of delays on the german train system Um, but that also comes down to just because it's new to us and we don't know better There were other options available and we're like, oh, this seems like the easiest right but um, some of the connections were quite tight And yeah in hindsight, we would have Maybe take it spent a little bit more money to take there was basically a direct train from paris to uh basal, uh basal basal Potato potato, switzerland is cool because they also have uh quite a bit of cycling going on there Especially in the major cities Yeah, yeah, I it's funny because I think Chris said this one thing when we were in toronto years ago um When we were already fully immersed into the cycling world is that in toronto they tend to cycle in spite of lack of infrastructure And I I think i'm accurate in saying that was very much our experience in switzerland as well Is they do have a remarkable number of people that are cycling they do. Yeah, um, despite a lack of protected infrastructure in key places despite the fact that it's hilly despite the fact that they also get a lot of rain and It was pretty cool to see. I think we were very impressive for in terms of not only what they're already doing But the vision that's coming from the city It's very cool to see what really kind of uh turned our worldview on its head was the fact that Basically the biggest barrier to getting more people cycling in burn and ziric and other swiss cities is the public transport system So the car car usage in burn is about the same as delft. I think it's uh around 20 percent But the vast majority of trips there over 50 percent were made on the tram network And and something like 90 of those trips are under three kilometers So there's this potential of getting people out of the trams onto bicycles but you Obviously run the risk of cannibalizing your public transport system. Yeah And then also when you were riding on the streets the trams were kind of the biggest Discomfort was they were right next to you as you were cycling along rather than than cars as we are used to experiencing. So Yeah, I think they've got some difficult decisions to make in terms of How many people they want to get off the tram network and on the bicycles? Which is a problem that most cities would probably love to love to have their car usage is is pretty good and and their city center was very quiet and clean and Almost car-free and and it did remind us a lot of a dutch city. It's just they'd accomplished The same thing through their tram network rather than their cycling network And there's some really beautiful train rides in that country Yeah, we I think our most memorable day memorable day was We took the cog railway to the peak of Mount Mount Pilatus In uh, is that the highest railway is it's the steepest cog railway steepest and oldest I think Uh, 7 000 feet at 48 degree. Yeah slope 48 degree So we're here like lean back in your seats. No, it's really neat. They've got it set up So like the train is running on an angle, but then the seats are Are done at like a normal like Great like Yeah, so it's very uh Is a very interesting experience It helps ethan our son is Has a little bit of a fear of heights. Yeah, so not leaning backwards and looking out the mountain was very helpful It also not leaning forward and looking down So Cool. Yeah, it was very neat. Yeah, maybe uh, how are we doing on this, uh, route? Yeah, I mean I could actually talk about yeah Well, if we go up over that bridge and back Yeah, why don't we talk of it about this canal and this environment that we're going through because uh, I think one of the cool things about Uh, our time here so far has been showing up this place to our parents All four of our parents are in their 60s newly retired Come from fairly car-dependent suburbs of toronto. Yeah, and uh, they've heard us talk about the Netherlands for years and years and years this magical place where Uh We eventually moved and uh to see them experience it for the first time and actually get on a bicycle Here, uh, it was was quite special and this was uh, I think the first route that we Brought all of them on because it's fairly low stress and Uh, quite scenic along the river, although you couldn't tell from the all the construction they're doing right now um, but they're The really special thing was uh, my mom in particular. She was having trouble balancing on the bike She hadn't cycled in 50 years since she was a teenager Uh, but we were able to rent this duo feats from a a non-profit in delft, which is basically a side-by-side Uh bicycle that seats two people Uh, well, I'd say tricycle Tricycle, yeah, so uh, her and my father got to Cycle along here, you know, uh with fairly minimal effort and and we ended up doing like 25 kilometers that day Uh with my mom and and to see her out there and experiencing the joy that Everyone else was experiencing despite not being as physically able Um, it was a rather memorable moment What about your parents Melissa, what about my parents? Well, so I don't know where to start. Um, I grew up cycling with my family. It's just something that we did we go for family bike rides Um, so it's it's interesting now to make Make cycling for it to be such an important part of my life I wouldn't say that we ever thought anything I've done. It was just like, hey, let's go for a family ride or let's ride to the park Um, but now whenever they visit they know they have to go for a bike ride Um But they've been able they've been quite fortunate to be able to join us on a few of our trips So actually when we were touring australia, they joined us for four weeks And cycled in brisbane and melbourne. I don't think in sydney, um, but in also in awkland And wellington anyways, hi digress christ church And so they've experienced those cities and they're like, oh, these are such great places They love cycling in brisbane which for for us coming from our context We're like, oh, there's so much work to do But for them it was just like this like this epiphany of like, oh, you can cycle along the water for Countless kilometers. So then we bring them here We're like, yeah, you can cycle anywhere for countless kilometers So they got to cycle around delft with us My dad joined datian for his commute to school, which was interesting. Oh, yeah, I think I scared the crap out of him Because we went along the t-deaf route. Oh, yeah during rush hour and crazy. It was shoulder to shoulder I think he was a little bit stressed out. Yeah um And then we even got to cycle in rotherdam, which was really nice We went out went out for a day without the kids and Took them to uh caps of browers. Yeah, enjoyed a beer together and although there were a few moments Because they're not used to this. There's so there's some moments that are quite stressful for them Which we can't I mean you can't underestimate those because people talk about International cycling in Amsterdam or other big cities and feeling intimidated And it's you know, it's important to acknowledge that and be patient with it um But I think despite feeling stressed. She at the end she did say it was really nice feel to have that moment of just riding around and Covering a lot more ground than she would have been able to do if we just walked so I I want to get speaking of like People who are less like able right? Uh might have difficulty in these environments I want to get your thoughts on electric mobility because in the Netherlands Now there is more new e-bikes sold than normal bikes Right. So how has that do you think enabled more people perhaps to take on this? Uh activity and whether it is a positive development Well, I think we'd both agree that It is a positive development. We wrote a whole chapter about it. We wrote a whole chapter about it But um Yeah, I think There are certainly some challenges as you implement Speed into the equation when it comes to an e-bike But really, you know, our research that we found was that they're not using it People aren't using e-bikes to go faster They're just using them to make things a little bit easier and to go a little bit further And if that means that we're encouraging people to Ride who maybe don't have the stamina to go as far Or want to be able to age in place but still maintain that level of ability then I think it's a very very big net positive In both of our parents will mine in particular have talked about getting e-bikes back home Just to make things a bit easier for getting around I think we've even talked about getting e-bikes To be able to go a little bit further You know, we're getting up there Hey Four decades next year Yeah, I mean I heard them eloquently referred to as a Range extender the other day and I think that's Quite succinctly puts it down. It's it's not about Childing faster. It's not about being lazy. It's it's about enabling people that want to cycle more Who feel like certain trips are impossible or too far or outside of the Netherlands too hilly Or too sweaty and and giving them that extra physical boost but also psychological boost to make those trips possible Look what we saw when we were in Bern is you know I don't I'm not going to throw out a number but a lot of people We're on e-bikes. I mean half of their bike share fleet are e-bike to enable those trips Yeah, Switzerland's fairly hilly place. We were in Auckland the city built on 50 dormant volcanoes Yeah, the same thing and this is the you know one of the pushbacks So I always get over the Netherlands flat the Netherlands is flat well, okay, but if you enable electromobility by Giving people access to e-bikes incentivizing e-bikes and safe giving them secure parking and infrastructure Then you run out of excuses very quickly. Yeah And actually it occurred to me the other day I was shopping online Preparing for a trip. I plan to do the summer to the Black Sea along Eurobello 6 along the Danube and Austria and all that and and it's it's a bit hilly But I figured if I could bring an e-bike with me Then it gives me at least an extra like 30 kilometers a day of Free energy. Yeah, I could you know take me a bit further and not be astranuous This range extension as you mentioned And the studies are showing that people The health benefits are as good if not greater because people are riding e-bikes further distances and more often Than they would a regular push bike and and so I think there's very few e-bike cynics left in the in the cycling world and You know frankly The world is going to pass them by at some point. Yeah, it's the prices are plummeting They're they're so good. They're getting so light and easy to use And I think there's I think there's still like a misconception around e-bikes as people think of them as like the speed paddle Lack, right? Yeah, and we really try to talk about that when we're presenting or speaking with people Is it's not we're not talking about the bikes where you don't have to paddle like these are I mean, you know Those are fine, too, whatever But when we tell most people are talking about e-bikes they're talking about just giving someone an assist Like putting a gentle hand on someone's back and pushing them up a hill You know if that wind in the back wind in the back exactly Now, I mean having said all that I think These types of new machines need to be taken into consideration when you're designing your infrastructure and one of the things we saw uh on our travels is bike lanes that have been built way too narrow without Allowing people to pass each other a right side by side and I think that presents a Well, they're not future-proofed and and If you do want people to use your infrastructure A variety of abilities and speeds and you do have to build them wide enough to allow for passing and and and social cycling and unfortunately cities that are hesitant to give up that space or building infrastructure that's just way too narrow, right? You're you're You're being encouraged from what I've heard to write another book Yeah, I don't know how much you're allowed to talk about that, but what are some ideas that have Percolating your mind generating that you think about you know about the Netherlands now that you've actually lived here Yeah, I think without spoiling the plot don't spoil the plot don't I think um We talked in the first book about um A lot of the Yeah, a lot of the how um Without getting too much into the weeds with the technical details And because we don't profess to be technical experts. We're just experiential experts. Yes experiential experts Um, and I think a lot of the conversation Now needs to go more towards What it actually means when you build all this stuff to the people that experience those cities And so I think that's where we would like to probably focus is More on the people Experiencing it reflecting on Our experiences moving here our children's experiences. Yes Perhaps telling some of the stories of the policies that made those experiences possible And some of the research that back set up. So it's I think it all comes down to Yeah, the the qualitative Experience of living in a city with fewer cars and That at the end of the day is what it's about. It's not about the bicycle. It's not about the bicycle infrastructure It's about how people can thrive when Motor vehicles are kept under control and kept Within Limits limits. Yes rather than ruling the city and and being allowed to Rome freely and and travel the speeds that they want to Yeah Yeah, yeah. I mean so the I mean we could talk at length about What that means but for us it means uh City that constantly engages our senses where you know, we can hear the birds. We can hear the church bells Uh We see neighbors. We can see neighbors um We can smell we can taste we can and and these are kind of all things that we've forgotten because Uh, we've got six lanes of traffic at our front door in most most contexts That is all yeah, yeah Yeah, no that gets back down to the very basics is the the first book you went around and you talked to the practitioners really Right, like you went to city officials. You went to consultants right all from the professional aspect Yeah, so this wouldn't make sense as a logical next step now that you're here And you can talk about it from first hand experience Well and focusing on the less obvious benefits because I think we all know the public health the traffic congestion the uh The carbon emissions all of these things that it's okay Rattle, rattle, rattle. No worries We know the obvious benefits, but we I think there's all these really subtle squishy things that uh that we get Yeah Of a city that's perhaps more socially connected and trusting and uh and more equitable and accessible to Everybody and uh, so yeah, I think we're right now the big question is where we find the time to delve into this project, but it is Taking shape in our minds if not on paper Yeah, well, um It and you also still I believe right, uh, correct me if I'm wrong the company modesty. Yeah, it's still running Yeah, do you have a vision for that? Going forward now that the book is out and you're here, you know, excellent question, george Company company and air quotes, maybe Hey, it's a registering company and it's registered Yeah Oh, it's a dutch company too. All right cool, um, I think We both see the value in keeping modesty going if not as a Um business in terms of money making adventure, but in terms of still providing that inspiration Um, I think people will have noticed that at least on the website the content level has reduced Yes, well you've been outputting in other places, right? Yeah, exactly our our energy is now focused on for myself Movicon for chris the Dutch cycling embassy, but we still want to provide that inspiration where we can um, and of course the book is still out there, uh, we've had three Reprints no no. Yeah, it's on its third edition So there's still promotion to be done for the book And so we're still doing speaking opportunities when invited and and there've been some requests for foreign language translation as well, which has been quite interesting I think what's exciting though is they're not Um, there's not a ton of them, but we have new opportunities now with dutch partners that we've made over the year So last year we got to work with the international cargo bike festival and we'll do that again this year They were fun. Yeah riding around those cargo bikes. Yeah, and I mean yos and tom that are organizing it are like fantastic to work with Yeah, um, so organizations like that will continue to partner with and support where we can and Yeah, it's sort of it's still it's gone back to being a passion project as opposed to a full-time job. Wow, which is nice Yeah And uh, where can they find you guys on the internet because you're everywhere So let me just rattle it off. I'll put a I'll put a link in the description below and then yeah People can go find you. Well modacity is on facebook twitter instagram linkedin at modacity life m o d a city life Um, dutch cycling embassy likewise is on all social media channels if you just type it in Uh, I think it's cycling underscore embassy. Yeah, uh and mobicon similarly twitter instagram facebook linkedin at mobicon or at mobicon nl you guys are killing it Any any ideas for i don't christ you had a you're actually a filmmaker. So any any ideas to expand into the video world Not at this point. I mean we are at the dutch cycling embassy. We're working on a series of webinars, uh online, uh kind of video clips that will Provide tutorials on on dutch cycling concepts, but i'm just kind of overseeing the production. Yeah, i'm not But some of my experience will be helpful in bringing those together with an outside consultant um, yeah, I I mean and we're also working on a podcast which is Uh a similar kind of deal in terms of arranging the interviews and shaping the storylines um But yeah as far as our free time goes it's it's what free time. Yeah, it's fairly limited and uh It's focused on making sure that we get to enjoy the other ones. It's fun time with our family And learning the language Okay, so as the traffic gets a bit busier, uh, we we're gonna cut this podcast short Okay, I think uh, we covered a lot of ground today, but you know, I'd love to do this again with with both of you Uh, and this three person format seems to work really well In delt in delt. Yeah In you know in other cities, it's not so much fun So I encourage you to find melissa and chris on the internet at all the social media platforms And uh, I wish you well as you further enjoy your life here in delt Thanks, we've done a lot of podcasts over the years, but this is quite far the funnest. Yeah, looking forward to your podcast too All right, take care guys. Thank you. Bye