 Hello everyone, a very warm welcome from a rather glorious evening in London. And I hope the sky is clear wherever you are and I hope you and your loved ones are safe and well. I am delighted as per every Tuesday to welcome you to another session of the so as Middle East Institute Tuesday evening lectures. I know that myself Nargis Farzad, and my colleague Dr Dina Matta, the chair of Center for Palestinian Studies, organized these Tuesday evening lectures. And one of the joys if I can call that of lockdown has been an amazing Dina John is here fantastic dinner we've only just started. I was going to make apologies that you'll be 10 minutes running between digital meetings. One of the wonderful things about lockdown is foreign correspondence are grounded, and no longer dashing to the airport just with a camera and their passport to zoom from one battle field to the next revolution. It is such a pleasure on your behalf and of course myself and Dina to welcome Scott Peterson, who we've been trying to nab for a little while at the moment but there is always a uprising or a natural disaster or a meltdown in the Middle East if not Africa for him to cover. Scott Peterson, as I have introduced him is a foreign correspondent and of course a bureau chief, who has most of his career Scott can correct me, has been writing for the Christian Science Monitor. He has been based in several places, I think, too long to list but certainly in the Middle East in Russia if I'm am I correct in Moscow and in Istanbul before moving to London. He has, you name it, he has covered it in mostly in the Middle East and in Africa and I think few other meltdown spots in Eastern and Central Europe and more. And as if that wasn't enough as if covering revolutions and dodging bullets and remembering where to put his foot down between the mines wasn't enough for relaxation he does extreme rock climbing. So maybe we can visit that Scott Peterson very welcome to so as online the digital world I'm sorry that we can't host you at our lovely campus but we look forward to do that next time. Scott is also a phenomenally good photographer as well. And his photographs are, I think, hosted by the Getty images, and he's also the author of two books, there's millions of articles in fact I was just reading your last article I think I can't keep up but I think it was about the 10th anniversary of the uprising in Syria wasn't it Scott. And the two books one me against my brother which is about in Africa the Somali and the book which obviously I have on my bookshelf is about Iran all within almost 11 years ago, and I was just opening that book and I'll have to show off that I have it here. And it's so Scott starts by saying that no other country so dominates the headlines Iran is portrayed as etc etc. And that was 11 years ago and I don't think Iran has been off the front pages. Since then, so you're not here to hear me go on and on, but I welcome you to here, Scott's illustrated talk which we've entitled Iran 25 years, 45 visits and a journey behind the headline. And I am delighted that it is going to be an illustrated talk, so we can enjoy his lovely photograph. So Scott, the zoom, the screen is yours. Thank you so very much. Thank you very much, Nagesh June and also Dina June and Aki John for organizing this and also for inviting me to so as to your Middle East Institute and also to the center for Iranian studies at so as I'm really grateful to to, well that you finally brought me as you say, for one of these Tuesday night lectures and and I'm really looking forward, looking forward to it. You know, all of us in the, in the past year have had a lot more time to well be at home grounded as you say so this is the, this is the longest period of time in my entire career that I have not traveled anywhere, probably by a factor of about five or six. It has been a very long time. So in the process that has meant some pretty much deep cleaning of files and things like that. And of course I have tossed out mountains of documentation and files and things that have been piling up over the years from Iran and and from every type that I cover and one of the things I came across from Iran and I just wanted to show this to you. This is an 86 page contact list, which I had compiled over the first 30 visits that I made to Iran. And so I didn't toss it actually it was the last hard copy, but it is literally 86 pages of single space typed text. It's everything you can imagine this is basically a template of the kind of social and political fabric of Iran, in the sense that I've included obviously contacts and things like that their phone numbers, even to be honest their addresses so seeing them at home, like even their little kuche is marked down I mean what floor they're on their home numbers and all sorts of things to try and find people again because I mean you know Iran is such a crazy place. Tehran is such a crazy city that trying to get around and finding things is not so easy. So, so anyway I came across this and what really struck me when I started to go through it was how many of these themes that were active then again this is 86 pages, only to 2009. So, it's, you know, and many of the themes are are the same things that we're writing about today, every single day so we're looking at like, you know the kind of the fluctuating US Iran hostility. There was on so much history involved there. We've got the roller coaster of the Iran nuclear issue, which again, just, you know the some of the issues that were dealt with back then are still coming up. And of course we have the ongoing and permanent theme of how Iranians themselves cope with the Islamic Republic with the regime with just the situation that they find themselves in every single day and of course, those are the kind of stories that as a journalist I'm most interested in, you know, and finding so. So anyway, what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you a few slides while I make some introductory remarks and I'm going to read to you a few gems that I came across from inside here while I'm showing you those, while I'm showing you those images because you know it just it just really takes you back to some of the, the things that have sparked. And, you know, over the course of the years and you know what's remarkable about Iran and one, you know, I'm glad you held up a copy of my book, and I guess and that was very, very kind of you because, but that book is 732 pages. It has 1300 end notes, and I would certainly suggest to anyone considering writing a book that you maybe cut all that in half at the very most, but on Iran you really can't do justice to this subject and to the voices of the people you speak to and anything else without a volume this large you almost feel like you'd be doing a disservice producing a 100 page page book. Anyway, let me go on to let me share my screen here. I'm going to just go through some of these images without commentary but what I am going to do is I'm going to read some of the kind of some of the gems that have that have come up from this, that have come up from this contact list. So for example, we have from early days of the revolution. We have Ayatollah Beheshti with this remarkable comment that let the Americans be angry and let them die of their anger. So this is such an incredible put down in Persian that's really effective I mean in English I wish sometimes I wish we had such such put downs but this one is actually painted on the walls of some buildings in Tehran. It's just a, you know, kind of it just popped out as as something that still is in the, you know, in the tips of the tongues of some more hard line leaders in Iran. These days, we also have another one, which I was really surprised when I came across this. There's a quote from the Associated Press in this again I keep quotes and other various little snippets to kind of remind me of the context of where these things have come from. I'm quoting the Associated Press here. James Defense Weekly in 1984 predicted that Iran would have a nuclear bomb in two years. That was 1984 just five years into the revolution. Now of course as we know we've had these predictions again and again coming from the Americans coming from the Iraqis coming from the Israelis especially two years time three years five years time. I was amazed to go back and find that as early as 1984. You had this prediction of course if that really was what Iran's aim was to go for a nuclear weapon then I think that we could safely say that this was the least efficient option for Iran for a nuclear bomb in the history of mankind because every other nation has managed it much faster than 35 years. That's actually gone for it so anyway, that one struck me very much. And there was a extraordinary character during the period of Makhmudak Madinajad, and his name was Medi Kalhor. He was this kind of like long haired cultural advisor this is how he cast himself. Just before that election where an arch conservative Makhmudak Madinajad was going to be was going to be elected for the first time in 2005. Medi Kalhor began an earthquake in politics just a couple of days before the vote he gave an interview in which he said he said, first of all he was criticizing he was criticizing the Islamic guidance ministry for being very tough on musicians, because they couldn't show instruments on television it was against the law to show instruments on television. He said where else in the world do people behave like this. We have to export our music to the world. Our income from our music could be more than our income from oil. You see why this guy's on the edge of crazy our pop and even rock music has room to make progress we have to make more space. Of course he's appealing to all of those undecided voters those many many more reformist and centrist voters who would never normally think about voting for an arch conservative, like Makhmudak Madinajad. Here's the the kicker on that line from Medi Kalhor he said, Mr. Akba Dinajad, he wants everyone to be joyful. At the moment we think people do not laugh from their heart, we want them to be happy from inside. Anyway very surprising of course he was elected he ended up serving two terms and I think the term security crackdown is one that's frequently associated with him and of course that is one of the terms that comes up in this vast document. And as I go through in fact, all sorts of the kind of terms that are still in play and active today have been active for decades. I mean their warnings of like the security outlook infill traders watch out for the no foosie. And this is like 30 years ago but these are the same charges and accusations that are being applied to, to people. You know these days as well, warnings about psychological war. And things about covert war. Of course there were a number of Iranian nuclear scientists that were assassinated on the streets of Tehran. So, and and many other aspects of the nuclear program were targeted. And then also of course the creeping coup in the press be warned. Now of course that one actually brings me to to a remarkable article that I also had have plucked out here from 2007. And it's called, which is a hard line daily newspaper. And this is one that essentially I had been making efforts for many years to visit the Iran Iraq border down in the southwest corner one of the main Iran Iraq battlefields. And this is an area that's very particular to, you know, those who are kind of true believers more ideological in Iran there those who embrace the ideals of the Iran Iraq war. They're the ones who, who, you know, kind of buy into this idea that, you know, that this was a divine and sacred defense and, you know, that the war itself was a sacred sacred enterprise. So, I was always interested in getting down into that area because I know that that there are bus loads of students that are taken down there and other people who are interested. And they're taken to the Gulf War battlefields. They're taken to the areas especially where there were large battles where Iran lost a lot of martyrs. And what's important about those places is that the students and I'd seen pictures of this and this is what I wanted to photograph myself. I saw pictures of students literally scooping up bits of the sand parts of the soils to put into Ziploc bags because that had been drenched with the blood of the martyrs. That was their whole point about that. And they have a name for this. It's called Raheana Nur. And it's the, it's the followers of the light. And that's, it's just kind of a way of passing on the torch from one generation next. So I always wanted to go do that. And I basically never got approval after nine, 10 years of trying every single year because it's seasonal. It's happening in fact right now just before Norouz. And so basically, Siasate Rous, when they heard that I had been shut down by the by the Brigadier General, who's in charge of the memory of the sacred defense, he said, Oh, I mean he'd actually made a press statement which he said, he thought Daniel Peterson will not be going down to the border areas because whatever it's sensitive or, you know, whatever he said, Siasate Rous put a much darker twist on it and it said, dispatching journalists to the border can only be described as a cover when the enemy is expanding the range of its threats and propaganda constantly, it said. And then the twist, there is no doubt that those who've been appointed by this for this mission by America are among the most experienced spies and the CIA, who are responsible for evaluating the potential of our country's military arrangements. Of course, when I saw that I asked my translator we've got to find this guy who wrote this thing we need to talk to him so there's a certain Mr Azizi and if he exists, I'll eat my computer. Of course he doesn't exist but Mr Azizi penned this, penned this piece. Yeah, that's it I just I feel fairly honored to be honest to be targeted with with that sort of thing because there's so many politicians and many others in Iran who of course have been similarly accused. You know, of such things and it just it goes into everybody's files goes into my files. So anyway, it's, it's just something that's just kind of par for the course par for the course in Iran sometimes. Anyway, that brought back. I have a lot of those journeys because every single one of those contacts, everything else is dated how often I would visit people and and things like that. And one thing I should say at the outset is that I have made 45 trips to Iran over these last 25 years. But one thing that you should know is that none of these visas except for two came easily. So everyone was some kind of a bureaucratic battle. Every single one required back and forth and back and forth so it wasn't like they were just churning them out. I mean, it's so it was just my editors were interested at the monitor I was interested in Iran and I mean I traveled to a lot of different countries I've traveled even more to Iraq, for example during the war. And, and to a lot of other countries but Iran always had a special, had a special interest and it's, you know the paradoxes that are in built the contradictions. The things that I mean as you can see from these photographs just for example I mean you have incredibly westernized scenes like this one, you know like this one and then you've got other ones that are a much more, you know, kind of ideological bent the things that were much more burning burning flags and, and things like that which again, you know so many Iranians will tell you why do you portray us with, you know with a burning flag which and they're right there's only a handful of times a year when that even happens and there only a handful of people out of the 85 million Iranians there are, you know that actually take part in that so of course, you know as a journalist ones trying to, to reflect the, you know the realities of this for example Valentine's day in calm, which is one of the most sacred cities and religious cities in the entire, in the entire country. So the challenge for the journalist is really to get behind that kind of flag burning rhetoric. You know, and in fact, I mean I've seen so many flags, you know burned in in Iran and during various events that you know that I used to actually call it the flag burning metric. You know how flags were burned how large they were how many they were how angry people appeared to be. You know in the course of their, in terms of their, their flag burning but in fact, you know, my job should be to and it has been and I've taken this on as as my job to to basically portray the human voices that are that are among those 85 million Iranians and you know I've written about everything from paintball and nose jobs and vasectomies to revolutionary guard funerals, you know, and the capture by Iran of the CIA stealth drone. That was a project that the United States the Pentagon had never even admitted existed and then Iran managed to bring one down largely intact out of the sky. So there's just such an incredible spectrum of stories and things that, you know, and things that, you know, to report about as a journalist but the, you know, but the real trick is to try and bring that that human voice so. That's bringing me to what I'm hoping to do today, and that is to tell some of the stories that have affected me most these are human stories among all the many stories I mean I must say I haven't exactly written zillions of stories as an Argus Junes just said. And I'm sure it is a very, very sizable number that's just a little bit short of zillions and among those among those are stories that again span this the political spectrum and I'll just say one thing about my access inside Iran. It was a lot broader prior to the protest movement the green movement of 2009. After that there was a much greater securitization that took place so a lot of my interviews. The more hard line or true believing or more conservative elements of society took place prior to 2009. And in those days people would speak to an American journalist and why would people speak to an American journalist in Iran, considering all the rhetoric that goes, you know, back and forth and you know, the real bileful, you know, accusations and things like that. And part of it is because people want to get their voice out and if they see a foreign journalist they're going to, you know, they're going to invite them in for tea and and try and get their voice out there and personally, I had never felt anything but warmth from Iranians when I was there and even more warmth actually, when I noted that I was an American and they said wow because I mean in Iran that's like being a unicorn. I mean they're not Americans who are around. So people you know you can walk into an auditorium and then it just was like silence because no one's seen anything like this in their midst. In fact, so anyway, as I mentioned before, as I mentioned before, I was especially interested in getting down to that border area, partly because I wanted to see how the ideologues of the regime passed on the torch from father to son how was it they pass on this commitment to the revolution this commitment as they see it to, you know the teachings of Imam Hussein and all of this, all of this kind of stuff. I didn't get down to the border but I did get approved to visit a place called a vase and does fool down on the border which was very, very close. And in fact those were cities that were hit by Saddam Hussein's missiles constantly so there are a lot of places to go and a lot of people who experienced the war there and so what I did was, because I wasn't able to actually get into the into the battlefield areas. I decided with my translator that we would go to the cemeteries of a vase and does fool where we would try to find people who'd been affected and hopefully try and find evidence of this passage, passing of the of the torch. Of course, you know these martyr cemeteries are all over Iran there's a huge one south of south of Tehran. This one is in a vase. This is a very common type of type of funeral stone as well for the Shahid e Gomnam. This is a, you know, basically an unknown soldier and there's so many of them who who are buried there as well and and these are the type of images you see. Now this is the man who mattered most when I met him. This is the son. His name is Ali Akbar Khoshnavar and he is next to the grave of the man that he's named after. So I basically just with my translator we went into this into the cemetery and we found this guy was on the verge of cleaning you can see the bottle of water. He's on the verge of cleaning that that gravestone and we started to speak to him and he said, Oh yeah my father is, you know my father I'm named after you know this martyr and he was you know close to my father during the war. I said well, please let me could we meet your father. So that night, we went to meet his father, and his father is a man who has a large print factory. But he's someone who also was very badly wounded in the war. So to start with, he's a true believer. This is, there's no question about that. And we're sitting there we're drinking tea. He's reminding me that Ayatollah Khomeini said that the said that the Islamic man is irrigated with the blood of the martyrs, and he had as a red memory book in fact one that I mean he also this man also has PTSD. He threw that book in the Karun river which runs through a havas and and basically his son went into fish it out and he was showing me pictures of this like kind of water stain images from the war and he said this one's dead he's pointing at the comrades he said this one's dead that was dead this one's dead. And then he turns the page and he gets to a coin that shows a picture of a lax mosque in Jerusalem. And he said, this is like, this is my most treasured possession. And he says that it literally come directly from Ayatollah Khomeini to his commander and was given to him and for him this is like about as close to the divine as you can get. As far as he is, as far as he is concerned, but this is a guy who truly embraced and loved the war that he fought in. I mean I was shocked when he pulled up his shirt for me and showed his back lacerated with scars scar tissue. He'd obviously been in a number of blasts and his, you know, his legs were his legs were wounded so he was limping, and he actually officially came within 5% of death is like the official figure that they gave me for for what that for what that meant. And he said, and these are these are his words. He said, in our generation, we wouldn't allow ourselves to be hospitalized. We would go back to the war as soon as we could walk. And the second thing is when I said so tell me about it those tell me more about the war. And he said, it's hard to describe, unless you were there. He said, no matter how many times I tell you that this is cold. And he literally put his finger on the edge of the carpet that we were sitting on put it on the cold concrete floor. He said no matter how many times I tell you this is cold, you won't understand it until you touch it. And here, in fact, was an example of how in this family, because of the sun was a absolutely a true believer as well. And here was evidence of how it is that this, you know, the idea law ideology that had begun with that revolution has been passed on is passed on in some places, among some in in from father to son. So, interestingly enough, that passage, and that whole concept is something that is fairly exclusive or seen as fairly exclusive by those who hold it. And I'll give you an example which really struck me because, you know, this is this is kind of gets to some of the division some of the social divisions inside Iran and people's attitudes toward the revolution and toward the Islamic Republic. And that is the, and that is the difference between a hoodie someone who's an insider like these believers I've just described to you, or a girl, a hoodie, who is a an outsider, and to give you an idea about how those worlds don't mesh too easily. And this is the period of a of a scene that took place in behest as our cemetery, and this is the large martyr cemetery, not martyr cemetery it's just, it's for everybody south of Tehran and back during the war. It literally like had red water it was like you know painted red, or died red so that it would that it would flow flow out. And a friend of mine, who is a, who's a westernized lady went there in an effort to bridge the gap. She appreciated and said she'd appreciated what the, you know what the, you know what the martyrs had had sacrificed. And so she's immediately confronted by a hostile believer who said, What are you doing here with that head job. Meaning he could tell that she was, you know, kind of a, you know, westernized lady and not someone who, you know, look like most of the people that he knew with a much more black Chador and all of that. And so, and she said, Well, I'm just trying to pay my respects I want to put some flowers on the graves of those martyrs who who died and died in the war. And his response was so dismissive and he just said, They didn't die for people like you. Anyway, just to kind of, you know, a little insight into, into how that division affects affects society and it's one of the reasons it's one of the many, many fault lines that that you know that kind of crisscross your own. So, I want to tell another story about another remarkable. And sitting there, I'm just going to move along. These are still in the, in the cemetery and off bars. And this is Ali Akbar Hoshnavar. At his name sakes grave. So, during, during Mr. Akman dinner jobs presidency. And this is something that you will remember all of the kerfuffle about the fact that he often denied the Holocaust, or denied the scale of the Holocaust. And, and of course, also was quoted saying, and these are the words actually originally viatola Khomeini saying that one day Israel will be wiped from the face of the earth will disappear from the face of time is actually the, the translation. In the course of Mr. Akman dinner jobs back and forth. You know, accusing Israel and doing everything else. There was a conference held in Tehran that was specifically including a bunch of I mean there were a number of like Holocaust deniers who were invited. David Duke of the KKK was there. I mean it was an extraordinary gathering. It was a cartoon, you know, kind of an anti Holocaust cartoon competition and, and a lot of things. And I happen to be there during that conference, and within a week or two. It turned out that I got an invitation from the, from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and they said we are putting together a diplomatic tour of all the Jewish sites in Tehran. And you're welcome to come. And I said, great. All right, well I'll do that. So we begin. So this tour, as it transpires so I didn't know what it, you know what it involved or anything else. So as it transpires the Ministry of Foreign Affairs people invited all of the diplomatic corps to go in this so there were several and we went to every single, we went to every single, you know, kind of facility that was run by the Jewish community in the city. And here's a diplomat, for example, in one of the synagogues that we visited. This is also in one of the synagogues that we visited the diplomats were given this tour, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs people basically said, look, we are they I mean they quietly said we are so embarrassed by what our president is saying about, you know, about the Holocaust and about everything else and we wanted to reassure the Jewish community. So we went to the Jewish community and this is actually confirmed by the leaders of the Jewish community in Iran which at that time, between 25,000 is probably a little bit lower now. But but it is the largest Jewish community outside of Israel in the Middle East. I mean it is sizable. And so, so anyway, they said we were so mortified by this that we went to the leaders of the Jewish community and we said, we would like to facilitate something for you. Just name the program, do whatever you want, take people wherever you want just tell us what you want us to do and we would be happy to oblige so that yielded this day long, you know this day long tour. So, we went to Jewish schools, back to another synagogue. It was a remarkable, it was a remarkable thing. As a matter of fact, but what struck me the most. It was a really care home. And then we went to the doctor Sapir Hospital. Now this hospital is a Jewish hospital, but it basically takes care of all Iranians whether you're Jewish, whatever you happen to be. It's not as famous in Iran as an institution, because it's also, and it's also a hospital that was there during the Shah's time before the revolution in 1979, and it refused to hand over wound people that were wounded in the protests against the Shah. And in fact it got such a, such a notoriety for this that that Ayatollah Khomeini himself sent a note of gratitude after the revolution thanking the hospital for not like handing over the wounded, you know the wounded revolutionaries. So that was the first thing that's just part of the backstory of this hospital. But for me what struck me the most was meeting a doctor there, who is a Jewish surgeon. His name was homayoun mohaber. And he described for me what it was like to be a military surgeon on the frontline during the Iran Iraq war. Now somehow, he managed to escape the purges that because there were purges after the revolution of Jewish officers in the in the ranks. But in the course of doing his work which this is a man who's a real nationalist, because his whole point is that, you know, it doesn't matter whether I'm Jewish or I'm Shia or whatever I am Iranian first. And that is was his motivating factor but I asked to speak to him separately later once I found a bit more out about a story. He went to his clinic. And in his clinic. He had the results of 900 frontline operations. He had kept the shrapnel and the bullets that he had plucked out of the Iranian soldiers who are on the frontline. 900 operations. He had he himself was wounded and he gave blood twice to save the lives of what almost certainly were Shia soldiers. I was so struck by the fact that he kept that and he told me he said the Islamic Republic made very good respect for me all the time and did not care about my religion after the revolution. So like I say, he managed to escape the purges and of course, Iran's Jews have had have had a lot of problems up and down over the years but this is just was a remarkable story that it was really unexpected of course Iran is full is on it full of unexpected stories. And that's what I'd expect, including the next one. We're going to fast forward just a little bit to 2009. And for those who. So I mentioned a little bit earlier about the presidential election of 2009. This was ended up becoming a crucial watershed in the history of the Islamic Revolution. The Islamic Republic just turned 42 years old, few weeks ago. And, but still to this day, this event of 2009 because you remember President Ahmadinejad, basically, like was elected a second time but wasn't elected a second time people disputed that and the Iranians said we didn't vote for this man and we're not going to accept it. And the green movement became, you know, became a huge, huge protest movement so I happen to go before the vote, few days before the vote out to the city of Birjan, which is, I don't know, 800 miles east of of Tehran. It's way out there, and I had been to Birjan before, because I went during one of the provincial trips that President Ahmadinejad himself made. And Ahmadinejad fell very much at home in Birjan, because the people, the people there voted for him in the highest in a higher percentage than any other city in Iran during the first election so these are his, you know, these are his real home home supporters is home base. So it's a real surprise. When I traveled to Birjan, within 30 minutes by pure chance, the main challenger. Osavi happens to touch down in Birjan. And his staff people told us later he said, they said, you know, we weren't even going to come here but we've had such a surge of interest around the country that we're actually now going to these places which are kind of strongholds of the, you know, of the, you know of Ahmadinejad and these guys, because we think we have a chance. So, I mean, you know, who knew what to think. Within 30 minutes of arriving in that city. There was pandemonium, I think that this is the best term for this is probably job gear, where an incredible excitement just like blasts out of nowhere. So, first of all, you have the guy, this is the well part of the welcoming committee at the airport in Birjan. And you remember we are, we are really out there 800 miles east of Tehran is halfway to Afghanistan and I mean it's, it's really out there. And so this is welcoming committee you can see it's all about being members of the green movement. This is at the airport but these, they're not just young people wearing green I spoke to veterans wounded veterans and others who said wow, you know, this guy can really change things for us I've met Ahmadinejad before he's not making any making any progress for us. So what happens. And chaos, absolutely erupts. People sacrifice two cows, they sacrifice a huge number of sheep of sheep. They put the bloodied handprints on the car of Musavi as he's moving around people are like holding up babies hoping for a hoping to get a blessing from him I mean, you wouldn't believe that this was an Ahmadinejad stronghold. When this, you know when this took place. So, to be able to like kind of witnesses as it, you know as it went through this, you know this chaos and this job gear excitement was was extraordinary and also one of the things because it took place right in the middle of an awkward dinner job stronghold that, you know that you can easily think Wow, you know maybe that maybe this man actually has a chance to win. This is the scene they had a tiny little auditorium fits like 5000 I don't know how many people jammed in there but the reason I show you these pictures is because we could not move. I mean, we sweat through our shirts. We, we sweat through everything that you can imagine it was so hot inside there and the energy that people had was just completely crazy. I mean I was worried that my camera was going to stop working because there's so much so much sweat like draining into it. And one of the first words that mirror Hussein wasabi, you know says when he when he finally gets to the to the to the podium. He says the heat in here is the heat rising toward freedom. I mean clearly a well practice politician. But the other thing was to is that he described Ahmadinejad and his people as delusional fanatics. And of course we know the way that this this went and I won't, I won't give you too many. I won't have to give you too many details I'm sure people remember about the protests that took place, and which continued for months and even senior revolutionary guardsman said that this was as close to the collapse of the Islamic Republic that had occurred since the since the beginning of the revolution so that means even during the Iran Iraq war. During that period here are some of the green moving people beginning their celebrations in in Tehran actually is shifting toward the clashes which all began within the literally the second day after that after that election. And of course this is the last press conference of the Ahmadinejad himself gave. So anyway, history there really is, you know, is on display and, and forever more that has been called by the hardliners the moment of fitness, the moment of sedition so if you if you have days listen to, you know, listen to Friday prayers and they start like and one of the ayatollahs for example Ahmad Khatami starts talking about, oh you know the Doshman of the Zorg the Americans the Israelis, these are all enemies. When he starts talking about the fitna, his eyes bug out, he starts, I mean it's something different right the other ones are just ticking boxes oh yes the Americans the Israelis, when he starts talking about the internal opposition, it's like completely a different So fast forward now a few years. We're going to go up to the results of the nuclear deal in 2015. So, here we have incredible moment of hope. We have an incredible moment of expectation, because the nuclear deal has now been the nuclear deal has now been signed. Of course this is something that President Hassan Rouhani had promised. He had promised a government of hope. People had that hope but until this deal was signed. No one had expectations that it was really going to going to come together. I have three images that I'm going to share for you that I'm sharing with you from this, this scene is this is basically around made on Vanak in in Tehran, and you know, people were absolutely celebrating. But at the same time, I was only able to get three shots because of course I got picked up with my camera and everything else because one of these crowds started shouting, shouting that that President Rouhani should should fulfill another one of his promises which was to release Mir Hossein Musavi and Medica Ruby these are the two presidential contenders from the 2009 election released them from house arrest because they've been under house arrest almost ever since that election. Anyway, just three pictures of that to be there now of course. It has depreciated since then, even before President Donald Trump withdrew from the nuclear deal in 2018 we've had huge corruption, huge mismanagement which affected the economy. President Trump added more sanctions which made things even worse. So, so really the stories that we've mostly been been writing about have recently have been much more about hopelessness about an increasing suicide rate about how Iran is coping or not with the COVID crisis as every other country around the world is. And you know, I do wonder now whether or not we can say with as much confidence you know 15 years ago we always used to say that that Iranians were were the most pro American population in the region. But I'm not so sure that we can say that, you know, anymore because Iranians know that that in the course of this entire nuclear back and forth that President Obama was the one who orchestrated, you know the most, the initially the most damaging sanctions that Trump, of course pulled out and instituted a maximum pressure campaign. And for all intents and purposes at least up until now, President Biden has essentially continued that maximum pressure campaign they've given a few bits here and there they've certainly said they want to get back to the nuclear deal but this hasn't happened yet so, so we'll see what happens now, because that's a fairly hopeless image that I've just shared I'm going to give you two quick and more hopeful stories. To sink your teeth into which hopefully will reinvest your, your sense of what Iranians can can do and achieve in terms of, I don't know just, just fantastic human and humane action and one of them they're two episodes especially. One of them is from 2014, when I traveled to Marivan, and this is a small Kurdish town out on the border in the northwest of on the northwest of Iran. And there I found there a story that had already taken root in in in Iran. And there was a young boy, second grader he was eight years old. He had been bullied in his class because he had some kind of immunodeficiency problem. And so all of his hair fell out. So, he was bullied. He had to go to class he had to go through it he really was an unhappy campers name is mahan Rahmi Rahimi, and his teacher in solidarity one day appeared in class and had shaved his own head. This image of a teacher in solidarity, of course it gobsmacked the other students who'd been who'd been bullying him, but it became such a learning experience and not just for the, you know, not just for, for, for this classroom of students because this is a very, very small school, but they posted a picture on Facebook that got 700 likes, or 700,000 likes, and that's out of like in a country where Facebook is banned. Right. So 700,000, 700,000 likes, and I mean it caught the President's attention it did. So all of a sudden these guys became celebrities so this tiny little Baron Kurdish classroom, where you can find the upper left that's a clock where you're meant to like teach children how to tell time but like both the hands have been torn off I mean there is nothing much that is in this school except the inspiration of a teacher to try and you know get in the way of of the bullying of this of this child so anyway I went up amazing story about this about this boy about his teacher and you know and really. I think that you know something that that caught the caught the imagination also Iranians to the point where you know literally they issued a stamp in his, they issued a stamp in his in his honor. And that's right here this is the special customized stamp and at the bottom it says a marijuana teacher sympathy with his pupil is exemplary. So, anyway, that was just one of those kind of stories that you randomly come across. And there's another one, and this is this is one that that even now makes me makes me smile. So imagine you're just, you know you've spent days. You've spent all your life in Tehran or whatever else you've been, you know, subject to pollution, you've been subject to the pollution of the politics, and all of those things are just wearing you down day after day after day. So, all of a sudden you sign up and you find yourself in hang on a second, a laughing class. How would you, what would you expect so first of all I'm watching these people file in I had tried to get to a laughing class for several trips to Iran because I'd heard about him and I thought this might be interesting who knows. So sure enough, you go in, and all of these people who had been, you know, dusted with an extra bit of dusting coming from one of the buses cruising uphill up Valias, you know, Valias Avenue was, you know, they just look like they'd been done. They also looked like they had a well practiced ability to keep quiet, not say anything and also not express themselves particularly openly certainly not in public. So imagine my surprise, when this lady Mahro Samedin kind of takes control of this laughing class, and they're about 250 at that time anyway, laughing class instructors in Iran, and she literally starts out and she just like one, two, one, two, three ho, ho, ha ha ha. You know, people just literally began you just every second you began to watch as their inhibitions fell away as they began to think about other things. She I mean she explained you know that like a single minute of laughing is like 40 different breaths of air. There are 130 ways of laughing. And then she explained to this group she's like, this changes our view of life, the pollution the political problems this helps helps us forget all of that. And then most importantly, most importantly, she just told this class she said today, unfortunately, we forget the child within us, we need to find that and shut the rest of the brain down. And with that tactic she literally convinced all of these Tehranese you can see they're like absolutely into it and deep belly laughing I mean when this was done everybody was like clutching their sides, because they just couldn't couldn't, you know they couldn't believe what they were feeling in this class so. Anyway, on that note, I shall leave it be amazing picture and I know this is just a few pages out of all the hundreds of albums that you can put together I forgot to actually mention the name of the book, which is that it's really after the green revolution, which is led the sword in circle me by Scott Peterson, which was published I think in 2010, I believe. Well, I invite a couple of questions come through now and as usual, you can use the chat a line or the q amp a and I think actually will monitor any questions coming through this book. So there are a couple of things that one or two salutations greetings, perhaps, as you can expect from friends who have, you have made over the decades and certainly through the Iranian community. And one question was, which I flagged this up now where I put it now was that if someone who said that I think in the hotel or more perhaps you might have shared a cup of tea or something. But it said that at the time, you thought that you just mentioned that Iranians perhaps were more fond of United States compared to many other countries in the region of the Middle East. And the questioner asks that you thought they had so much in common. Iranians and Americans. And he wonders, do you still hold that have they come any closer or have they moved away have they diverged. Yeah, this is actually this is a really good question and I've written entire stories specifically about fact I think one of the one of my book chapters is specifically addressing this question about how similar Iranians and Americans are. And, you know, it's, but but that's a separate question of like, like where they stand today. So Iranian, I would say that Iranians and Americans are similar in a lot of respects I mean this sense of exceptionalism that they both share. One Iranian telling me it was fantasies like Iranians think they meant to be that they're just misplaced they're meant to be in the middle of Europe and someone put them out over here. I mean, you know this kind of and also this so the sense of the sense of spirituality is another aspect I mean many Americans consider themselves to be to be very spiritual and as do of course many, many Iranians in this in this respect. And also, there is a degree of, you know, I mean how to how to put this deftly. I didn't actually even mention it. Using my own words in my Iran book but I quote Iranians speaking about how arrogant Iranians and Americans both are about their place in the world about how they think they can get things done. And I'm trying to remember the direct quote that actually is in the book, which is something which is quoting an Iranian saying something like, you know, Westerners cannot even comprehend that the level of, you know, the level of arrogance that that Iranians have. It's something like that but it's it's more of a, it's more of a sense that that there's a manifest destiny that we as Iranians have, and certainly Americans feel that and the term manifest destiny is one that actually describes. So this aspect of, of, you know, having a specific purpose. So in that, you know, and all of those things completely still stand. I mean one of the reasons why I think that that United the US Iran, you know, level of hostility has been so so vicious during all these years is partly because we do have those characteristics in, you know, in, in common. So, while it meant that we were supremely close when it was the Shaw and the United States, it also meant that when we were enemies being enemies was really important like who it's going to give face first. Who's going to give you know who's going to give up, or, you know, or compromise or something like that and, and, you know, and that's, that's something that neither Americans nor Iranians can abide and we're even seeing it now with this kind of game of chicken over who's going to return to the terms of the nuclear deal. Absolutely. So very good question which I had on my list that is that would you say that most Western journalists by speaking mainly to the Western educated people of North Tehran say have given an incomplete picture of the public opinion. This is also a great question and I would actually say when I mentioned earlier in this talk that that up until 2009 I had a lot more access to people across the spectrum. And after 2009, after that, that, you know, period of period of real, you know, kind of landmark change inside Iran, it became a lot more difficult to meet people who are, who are on the more conservative side, partly because, you know, you just the lines, the dividing lines, the dividing lines which already were well established became even deeper they became chasms that took place. Now one of the problems is that for foreign journalists I mean they're two kinds. They're kinds like me who have managed to get in. In my case, many, many times and for as much as two and a half weeks but sometimes for only five or seven days. So, look at the challenge. So look at the challenge of that like if you want to travel anywhere, all those trips, like you know you just, there's no time to see the people you need to see in Tehran, and then get your visa extended leaving your passport in Tehran like you go off to Zahedan or to Maravan, or to somewhere else, and do a trip. So, you know, so, so journalists that are allowed in for such a short time by definition or just, you know, they really have the card stacked against them to start with, even if they have the best intentions. The other thing is, you know, Iran takes a lot of time to get to know, and it takes a lot of time to get to know people who will then tell you things. And, you know, even for journalists who've been based there for years, you know, they're actually, they're complaining when I would visit they're complaining that they have no access because basically the first question anyone asks if they call up an official or something like when are you leaving. And if they say, Well, I live here, like they never get a call back, but I can always say well I'm leaving on Tuesday so if we don't meet by Monday afternoon, it's not going to happen. So I would end up getting meetings that people who actually live there couldn't get. So, you know, it really, but, you know, it is it is a challenge and I think our journalist job is to meet as many people across the spectrum as possible, but of course, it's much easier to speak to English than having a party going, Nia Varanis, who invite you to the next, you know, sing song where everyone's getting, you know, getting drunk and having a good time you're like oh wow I you know I can blend with this, but the you know but they're just so much more to Iran and and it really but it requires a lot of work and there are there are a number of journalists that put that work in but you know certainly anyone who knows Iran recognizes the challenge. I need for the next two questions I'm going to come back I think you need your crystal ball. One is that you know the change of administration United States and the forthcoming elections in Iran so one is, do you think on the Biden there will be a genuine rapprochement in Iran, and could the clock be reset. And the other side of your crystal ball, could you glance in it and can you do you have any thoughts on the possible outcomes of the Iranian presidential election. So, on the on the JCPOA, both sides have indicated an interest in doing so. And even, you know, Mohammed Javad Zarif, the foreign minister has said that you know that certainly this can be orchestrated now we haven't had as quick a movement on the US side as I think a lot of people were expecting. So that is one, that is definitely, you know, one of the challenges because there's a clock ticking but the thing is we don't know where it is clicking toward, you know, I mean, you hear that, for example, you know more conservative or hardline factions inside Iran are interested in delaying, you know, interested in delaying a return to the JCPOA so that they can get credit for it so they can then own this dynamic, I mean they don't want to give Rohani and whichever centrist politician is going to be, you know, campaigning to be in the be the next president, they don't want him to get the credit for the work that that Zarif and Rohani have, you know, have done so, you know, so basically this is a real hot potato and of course remember that those factions were very, very much against the deal. In the United States you have the Republicans and you know and others who have been just dead set against the dead as as Trump illustrated so but the question is, is it going to move forward. That's a great question. First of all, they need to overcome this chicken and egg thing who's going to move first. And, and, and then once that gets done, it's also a question of how the Americans will view do they really think that somehow Iran is going to negotiate on their missiles or on other aspects which they've said they want to negotiate or they're going to say let's get to the JCPO a first, because at least there's a deal there with restrictions and that's the best starting point and probably that's all that can be achieved. Right at the moment but rapprochement I mean, you know, we're, I don't know they're just both of these sides have absolutely demonstrated an ability to throw a hand grenade right down the hallway. Every time there's a possibility of rapprochement on the other side so it's just the one time it ever came together was for that nuclear deal and it took years of excruciating negotiations. So that's one thing. The second thing going on to the presidential presidential vote. It's hard to say the conventional wisdom is that, you know, conservatives will take over and that the Supreme Leader is interested in having a, you know, having a homogenous conservative and right wing structure political structure in place partly because obviously he himself is getting older and it's very possible that you know that the next president will will be the president at the time that there is another broader broader change of the of the Supreme Leader possibly who knows. On the other hand I've also heard excellent analysis from people who know who are real hoodie inside who are saying no no you know don't discount the possibility of someone like Javad Zarif becoming a presidential candidate who is one of the few candidates if he were to run as a kind of centrist reformist who actually would probably mobilize people and kick them out of their disillusion because right at the moment there are a lot of people who are not going to vote, because they don't think it makes any difference. They think, you know, especially after 2009 that we cast our ballot and, you know, the results aren't the results aren't worthwhile. And so, you know, but if someone likes the refunds now Zarif has said repeatedly I'm not going to run. But you would never say never in Iran I mean what if the leader invites you to run and one, a couple of things just to remember on on Zarif which is something to keep in mind because I've for years have thought well there's no chance because he spent half his life in the United States, educated there and all of that. And then someone who I spoke to said well no you know all that means is that he understands the enemy better than anybody to start with. But he had a very close relationship with the Supreme Leader when the leader was president, and Zarif was at the UN, and don't forget also that he gets a lot of points these days among the more conservative and hardline camp because he really defended like the missiles at the European Parliament, and also he had very close and cordial relations with Qasem Soleimani, the general killed by by the United States a year ago that, and that is gold dust as well so you know Zarif has some things up his sleeves but I you know honestly I would never predict one thing I know is that if I make a prediction it'll be wrong. Yeah, so bringing it, making it a little more personal. Now is, I'm going to combine three questions that something that must preoccupy every foreign correspondent that how do you deal with ensuring the safety of your contact your translators, etc. Is that something that weighs on your mind and your own, are you aware when you are there are the eyes and ears of the state on you, and adding a third element to that that after all these trips really getting to places that were, you know many countries never set foot in, has this personizing Iranian, Iranianizing a magic circulated down through your soul, have you become a bit more Iranianize answering them in reverse order I would expect definitely having spent time in all of these remote Iranian places as well as across the political political spectrum in Tehran and everywhere else. I have become much more aware, shall we say and you know and probably imbibed, you know aspects of Persian culture and that sort of thing I mean, I'm sure it still shocks people when I like say ah thank you like this which is something I have been doing for 20 years without even thinking about it but of course, I don't think that came from you know my time spent in Lebanon necessarily so, you know so I think that there there are things like that and of course I have a real appreciation for, you know, kind of the history and you know I mean, I would never be able to give a talk like this and bring up the stories that I mentioned there if I myself wasn't interested, fascinated in fact, by those different aspects of you know of Iranian culture and everything else and remember, again for an American journalist, this is like forbidden fruit, because it's difficult to get in every single thing you write about Iran practically is counterintuitive for most of your readers, right, because they have a two dimensional, you know kind of flag burners terrorists. This is, this is the constant bleeding that they hear from, you know, from most media so to get in and tell a different story to find if you know people are amazed like wow you mean in Iran. You know, I mean, you know, for example, I mean just just to give one quick example I mean, you know the story that I wrote about, you know about vasectomies and about birth control and things like that when that was actually the government's, you know, the government's policy it was extraordinary that like Iran had, you know, 15 years ago one of United Nations population prize for its incredible, you know, steps that had taken that regard which I mean, who would have thought that right I mean now that policy is completely reversed but there's so many aspects that are just, you know that are just surprising so to your second question coming back and that is about the surveillance and that sort of thing. So from time to time I have come back and found that my room has been gone through, you know, which is fair enough. I myself have been actually very very lucky a lot of my colleagues haven't been I mean of course we know about my friend and colleague Jason resign who spent 544 days in Evan prison. Many others like him who have spent time pointlessly for no reason because they themselves have been taken in anticipation of some kind of an exchange or, you know, or whatever. And those those cases exist. And there's no doubt that if it wants to, you know, the establishment can impose all kinds of rules and the way that they do it for people like me is they just don't give you a visa. I mean, I'm watched. Actually, I want to be watched. I want them to hear my phone conversations. I want them to know where I'm going, because all of that will tell them that this guy's behaving like a journalist because he's a journalist, and I want to be seen as a journalist I think that, you know, from see a satir is that I that I quoted where they said I was, you know, some sort of agent. I mean this sort of stuff comes up all the time my files full of that kind of stuff. I've actually even had the Islamic guidance ministry respond to some guy who wrote into them from Germany, saying, Oh, hello, we'll choose who's a spy and who isn't thank you. I'm not kidding. I mean, you know, it's just, it's just par for the course when you're there. And as a journalist, you know, the beautiful thing about this job is one, you have a license to speak to everybody. And two, no one is going to ask, you know, I mean, you know, no one's gonna say, Jesus, why are you here because you're there to tell a story and of course now we have such a long track record. And I'm sure, you know, with 45 visas, my files are full. And when they when every time a visa would come up, people would say, Oh, don't worry, yes, we know, you know, Mr. Peterson very well. And then someone else is gonna say wait a minute why do we know a Scott Peterson so well, in fact, because that's a real, you know, that's a real issue but I mean that's, it's the best protection is is is openness but I'm of course I'm not in the, the way that you would expect only surveilled when we're really out in distant provinces and we catch someone's eye. And then your first question about the people who I've worked with as researchers. I've worked with amazing people, many, many amazing people over many years and in fact here I would love to just thank them all, because they have been so extraordinary and without their ability to interpret their society without their depth handling, when we might have been picked up, they're keeping their cool during a five hour long interrogation with, you know, revolutionary guard intelligence, for example, you know, and again, these are just things that come with a daily operating, you know procedure but they have been amazing and I still obviously work with you know researchers and translators and, and things like that and so but in keeping them safe I mean, you know they're also doing a job they often don't want their names. No necessarily but but if you're working officially and you're in Iran then you know then they know, you know who your official translator is and of course they have to, you know send in their reports and things but yeah no I haven't had an issue of anyone being as far as I know being. You can imagine there are streams of thank you for this amazing talk and amongst them there is saying that you know thank you so much for sharing such beautiful images and stories that you know somehow goes to rectify the unfortunate way that Iranians can be depicted that often retains it by the politics of the country and also that touching story of the child and the teacher in my court has done that how lovely to be reminded of that. There are the inevitable I think you may need to reach for your crystal ball again but the inevitable question that you know your thoughts on Nazanin Zarafadi that you know how could you put that in some context. So Nazanin is one of those cases that just is so unfortunate and so unexpected certainly to her I mean she just goes back for a family visit and now is locked in a system that is beyond her control. Beyond her husband's control and this is the case with so many of those who are held especially dual citizens obviously the Iranians don't. Don't recognize dual citizenship when it comes to making arrests things like this and you know often. You know it's extraordinary when you read the when you read the memoirs of those who have spent a lot of time in interrogation or spent a lot of time in in prison because you begin to understand based on how their interrogations went the kind of questions they're asking the kind of phobias and things that are the focus of the intelligence and security sources. You know, several of the stories that I've written recently I mean as you know just in in very recently we had the assassination of Mosin Fatrazade, who is, you know was the guy that has never been allowed by Iran to speak to the IEA they requested this for years. The Israelis and the Americans consider him to be one of the crucial drivers of an actual weapons program up until 2003. So he was always going to be on the shortlist for any kind of an, you know, an attempt like that. But what that did the story that I wrote about that wasn't actually the fact that he ended up being killed, but that there was such an issue of leaks, clearly within the intelligence and security services. And that must have been shocked because this is a guy whose movements in theory should have been very carefully vetted so on the one hand, the Iranians have a real issue with with infiltrators with agents in many, many different places and this is demonstrated again and again. Their problem is that they then go after people who are low hanging fruit who happen to be dual citizens who I mean you know we're dealing with like the Persian Wildlife Foundation. I mean, Nazanine, you know, looking at Jason, these are people who, you know, who nine times out of 10 actually are people who would normally give Iran and the Islamic Republic the benefit of the doubt, in fact, which is why they're living there or at least visiting. And yet, they get picked up because hopefully they're going to be used in some kind of an exchange or because these guys really do think, and you know, they really do think that, you know, that these cameras that were placed up to you know photographs snow leopards and other things, somehow or like tied to a missile thing I mean what's, you know, to a to a missile base or something like that I mean, you know a couple of friends of mine years ago. One of them I think got kicked out of the country they were both resident they both went on a holiday and little did they know but the National Park Reserve that they went to was right next to a missile testing base. Now they had no idea. And why would you care and satellites can take pictures of all these things. But, you know, that was enough to get them, get them kicked out so I just, you know, it's clearly dangerous Iran is obviously got its, its antenna up very high and it should because it obviously has a big impact on you, but the people that get caught through it are the, you know, are, you know, more often than not just the, you know, just innocent, and that's, and that's a real problem that obviously doesn't do them any favors and the international, an international opinion, I hope she is freed and that there's new charges that are meant to come up on Friday, just disappear but, you know, I wouldn't, I'm sure she's not holding her breath for that so see what happens. There's a couple of questions, I imagine, brought up by the pictures that you showed on particularly our was cemetery and you know references to fish as a road that someone asked that perhaps and this is not as far as I can tell by the name not an Iranian person that is it could one say that the Iranian mentality rather you know romanticizes I suppose this idea of martyrdom and they're not there's not the fear from death that we generally assume and it is and it's sort of therefore it's an honor it's a rather romantic action to take and I could have add you know another one to it that would that put it in a different category of people and I thought when I was reading this question that you've not seen plenty of you know this deal for fighting to the death not just in Iran no doubt in in Iraq no doubt in Somalia and all the places that you have been is there a distinction this sense of romanticized in your experience. There's a huge difference, and that's a great, great question to ask, because I wouldn't confuse a commitment to what many of these people who I've spoken to and of course this is, you know, it, the revolution itself. This narrative of Imam Hossein of Imam Hossein who of course died on the plains of Karbala and 680 AD in fact the title of my book let the swords and circle me is come comes from his very last words right so this is this is one of the most most revered of the 12 shea mark the 12 shea imams here and his example was one of resistance why, because he was surrounded here's the story and this is this is why it matters, and this is why it's also different from just willy nilly throwing yourself away in a suicide operation, which rarely happens by the way by shea you I mean, for example, if you look at like all the in the thousands of suicide attacks, for example that took place in Iraq, over the last 15 years. I mean, not even a handful had been conducted by Shiites, every single one of them been conducted by Sunnis, and they have a completely different mindset Imam Hossein doesn't even feature for Sunnis. That's just a different way of looking at the world but for Shia, and especially those who are the true believers in this in this faith. The story with, with, you know, with Imam Hossein is that that he's surrounded by 10,000, you know, of Yazids soldiers. It's a hopeless situation against all odds. And he literally says, he literally says, you know, if the religion of Muhammad will only survive with my death, then oh, and he like opens his tunic, let the swords and circle me in other words, let me then be a martyr for this for this cause. So that whole story, which is so powerful was co-opted by Ayatollah Khomeini by Ayatollah Khomeini by Rafsan Jani by all of the decision makers in the early years of the Revolution when the Iran-Iraq war started, because while Saddam was basically, you know, invading Iran, they could say, you, your, you know, your Imam, Imam Hossein has been waiting 14 centuries for your footsteps to come and defend. Now is your time. This is what we're waiting for. The whole thing was couched in this narrative of a great divine against all the odds for religious purposes. And of course, that was very effective. And you see that today in this story I just told you about, you know, mentioned about the Ahvazi father and son, and this is not so uncommon, right? I mean, I have all kinds of pictures in time spent, you know, with people who really are true believers. Now they aren't the majority in Iran. In fact, many, many Iranians ran away from that war, escaped from Iran, because they just couldn't stand it, and they can't abide this way of thinking. It's one of the big, you know, social divides because they're just like, wow, that's just too much. I don't want to cope with that kind of stuff. But anyway, so that glorification. So this, so Imam Hossein, of course, is called the Lord of the Martyrs. That doesn't mean that martyrdom is the kind of thing that is what you're after necessarily. Like, in other words, you know, even this man who I spoke to in Ahfaz, I mean, he gave me a quote and he just said, you know, I didn't understand what a beautiful martyrdom was until I came so close to it. And these guys say they regret that they didn't actually die. But in fact, their purpose is to live so that they can then continue the fight and resist, because the whole thing is about resistance against a greater, you know, a greater enemy or against all odds. And that is a dynamic that's different from, you know, you're going to go to heaven if you, you know, if you, you know, blow yourself up in a car and kill the enemy. Having traveled to so many other neighboring countries of Iran, what is your take on the perception of modern Iran in the region? Is it low? Are there alliances that are being forged behind the scenes and are forever probably shifting? What are your concerns about these regional dynamics? And what do you see? Do you think Iran sometimes plays a dangerous game when we look at Yemen, when we look at Iraq, when we look at Syria and beyond? And it is, is there a moment that you think, oh, I haven't taken it early, wouldn't do that? Or perhaps, no, this is, you know, it's been forever thus in that region. We just now see the big players much more openly. Well, this is a great question. You know, it's interesting because Iran, and there's no doubt about it, has expanded its influence and use this tactic, which is a totally asymmetric tactic, right? It doesn't have the aircraft carriers. It doesn't have the force projection, projection, the kind of things that the Americans can move all around the world that the Russians have demonstrated they can do in Syria and elsewhere. So what they do is they have marshaled these Shiite militias, mostly Shiite militias, in Iraq, where they've got all kinds of people, and then also they've used them in Syria, they've used them in different places. You know, and of course the model for this was the creation of Hezbollah with Iranian help back in 1982 during the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon. So that model is one that Iran has proven so effective at using, partly because it's been able to pay people, but what differentiates its ability to do that compared to, say, the Saudis, which have also tried to do that in Iraq or, you know, somewhere else. So Saudis are bringing money to the table, but what the Iranians are bringing is they say, you're going to be one of the fighters with us. You're part of the Shia brethren who are going to be fighting for this broader aim. So Iran has really taken advantage of that. Now, you can argue that they've overreached. There are a lot of Iranians who have, when they protest, you know, and there have been all kinds of protests and especially economic protests over the last, over the last couple of years. And people have said, why are you giving money to Lebanon? Why are you giving money to Syrians? Why are you giving money to Iraqis when we need it here at home more than anywhere else? You know, Iran has been very effective at doing that. But the way to answer this question truly is that Iran's neighbors are always suspicious. They're always suspicious about what Iran is doing with that use of force. So the Turks feel that way. The Iraqis, while they say, and, you know, while they credit Iran and Soleimani for actually, like, quickly moving men in material to, you know, to Iraq to prevent ISIS from taking over even more of the country in 2014. If you credit them, Iran, if you can believe it, actually sent a bill to the Iraqi government when it was over for every single bullet. There wasn't a penny that was a gift. So they saved them, but they charged them for it too. And, you know, people are always wondering, well, wait a minute, you know, why this alliance and Iranian diplomats often, you know, present this as like, well, we can be true friends and this and that. I mean, I don't think anyone on the receiving end sees it that way. They're always trying to be careful. And partly that's just because they're uncertain about what Iran's, you know, ultimate aims are and that kind of thing. You know, Iran, as of several years ago, I think we saw kind of the peak of Shia power projection, literally in the last like 1000 years, it was never as big and broad as this and Iran made that happen. But now, Hezbollah is under a lot of attack in Lebanon and they don't have very much money and even their own people. I've spoken to Hezbollah fighters who are complaining all the time. They're going back to Syria to fight. They're just, you know, they are tired, and they think that Iran and even this morning I heard a report on seven more days of protests in Lebanon, and you hear Lebanese complaining while Iran is, you know, has been backing the wrong people and we're not getting, you know, we're not getting help. Now in Syria, they've achieved a lot. And frankly, without Iran's militias, they never Assad would would almost certainly not be where he is today. So they kept that regime alive long enough for the Russians to come in and really bring in the airpower to make a difference. And in Iraq, of course, they're neighbors but now Iran has a huge amount of influence, but we saw the Iranian consulates in Karbala and Najaf both attacked during the protests a year and a half ago. So people are, and again people are angry that another country is coming in and calling the shots. It's changing. I think Iran is kind of backing off of it partly because it doesn't have the resources, partly because it's having a recalibration, you know, and that sort of thing. So this is, this is something that's always in flux but, you know, open arms, sometimes but not often. I'm conscious that I've monopolized and I don't know whether Zina has any questions or not, but I know that I can't let this conversation come to an end before dinner. And I don't know if I fire off my last one. Do you have any questions for Yeah, I'm going down to speed on what you talk and it reminded me of my time as a foreign correspondent a long time back. I used to work for writers. Oh, great. Yeah. So, but it reminded me of, you know, kind of working in the region. Fantastic. Yes, I was going to say that I can't, we can't let you leave Scott until you tell us some adventures of rock climbing. Did it ever take place in Iran. I mean, all those, of course, mountains, did they draw you in. I will tell you an extraordinary experience that I have only experienced in Iran. And that was my only accidental free solo. Now, when you solo climb that means you climb without a rope. So, I was climbing torch all with some other climbers, and it was just going to be a day trip it was snowing everything was fine these guys are really well experienced and I mean I've been climbing in Iran. There are various gyms dotted around dotted around the places where I stay and so I've climbed it like the oil ministry has a sports facility and there are other things that have, you know, great climbing things. And there are the mountains. So we went up for a long day hike one day and it was meant to just be a trail, you know, a normal snowy winter sort of a trail. But at some point, the guys who I that I was climbing with were in this was this wasn't technical climbing it's a hike, which should be no problem right and these guys decided oh look at there's a rock face over there. Let's just climb up that that shouldn't be any trouble. So with no gear with nothing else. We start to climb up this actual like rock face and there were a lot of features so it wasn't, you know it didn't appear to be too challenging but I got about 10 meters up, which was the point of no return on this thing that was easily 30 meters tall and realized that the rock now had been like encased in ice. So now it was incredibly dangerous but there was no going back so we shifted from an area that climbers call high balling, which means it's quite dangerous to then solo wing which means if you come off. You really aren't probably going to make it back down in one piece. So anyway, I got to the top. Finally, I mean I was literally shaking because I realized that without a rope or any other protection that this was just ridiculously dangerous. I got to the top. It was so exhilarating. It was so extraordinary. I'm never going to do it again in my life, because if you've seen the film free solo you know how that can be right and know that you know those guys are just a very special breed. But anyway, it was incredible, but that only happened in Iran climbing there and that was my my one and only solo. Wow, amazing. Well of course it was that absolute tragic accident of about was it. Oh yeah, terrible terrible. I've launched which is a real veteran climbers and apparently was just some problem with the GPS they were not terrible. Secret climbers. Well, sorry. Are you a secret climber? No, but but I know I'm certainly. No, I am not. I'm quite a cowardly cowardly custard. I mean, a little Scottish Monroe is just about my limit. No, no, no, I'm very much flat land, but Scott is. I think we were just saying before you joined us, you know that if you know when he really pines for a battle field and he can't get to one, he'll do extreme rock climbing. Well, Scott Peterson has been such a privilege and such a joy to have you with as I mentioned we've waited a long time for you to be London long enough to join us. Thank you so much. And there are so many questions and wonderful comments about your talk that I didn't have a chance to read. But I want to invite all our audience that do follow Scott Peterson. He has quite a active social media profile, especially the Twitter and certainly on the Christian Science Monitor articles that are written repeatedly. And the beautiful photographs do check out the website and I recommend the books and definitely let the swords and circle me beautifully written. It is, it is, you know, there is faith. There is excitement. There is a real holding a mirror up to that country. Thank you very much indeed. Do come back again soon. We're not going to let you away from us. Thank you so very much. It was a real pleasure to have you and thank you to our loyal audience on behalf of the South Middle East Institute on behalf of dinner Center for Palestinian Studies on my own behalf Center for Iranian Studies and see you very soon. We've got to perhaps maybe one more or two more talks to check out our website and stay safe. Wonderful to have you. Good night. Thank you. Thank you for office. Thank you very much.