 I remember 15 years ago, more than 15 years when I just started as a family minister in one of the typical talk shows. One of the first questions of the moderator for me was, have you already chosen whether you want to be a bad mother or bad minister? No. No. Welcome to the ECB podcast, bringing you insights into economics and central banking. My name is Michael Steen. We're releasing today's episode on International Women's Day, and we have a very special edition. Our two guests have a lot in common, they've both been pioneers. Christine Lagarde was the first woman to be Finance Minister of France, the first woman to be Managing Director of the IMF, and the first to be President of the ECB. Ursula von der Leyen was the first woman to be Defence Minister in Germany, and then President of the European Commission. Throughout their careers, they've both been strong advocates of female empowerment. Madame Lagarde in Frankfurt spoke to Ms von der Leyen in Brussels for a frank and open discussion on their experiences becoming women leaders and where they see gender equality today. My dear Ursula, it is so nice to be together for this podcast on March the 8th. Because this is Women's Day, I was wondering whether we should not go along a few themes that we both are very familiar with in order to help other women or men, for that matter, progress and construct this more inclusive society and more diverse society that we all aspire to. I was thinking that maybe as a first topic we could both talk about what we've experienced and what we have observed, which is the talent of female and of female leadership in times of crisis. Because you and I have gone through a lot of tough days recently, but we know a little bit about leadership and we know a lot about crisis. So over to you and I'll pick it up and also say a few words about what I have observed. I'll just say one thing. Back in my IMF late days, a team gave me a little sign that I have kept on my desk ever since, which says, please let's not have another crisis next week. My schedule is full. So that says a lot about what we've gone through. So what do you think? Thank you so much. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to have this conversation. I guess I really like the idea to talk about these topics and female leadership in times of crisis. What always comes to my head is, well, women are not better than men, but they're different and they act differently. They have different experiences. They come from different walks of life, different backgrounds and therefore in crisis times but also in other times it is good to have a diverse team and for sure it is good to have women there. What is different in women? What was my experience over all these years? Well there's one thing that I think women are more prone to listen and to watch and then to decide. And they have a different way also to include empathy and intuition into their pattern of behavior if I may say so. So in crisis times women are very practical, very down to earth and you have things getting done without a lot of a do around it. That's my experience. I would completely agree with that and it's interesting. My staff pulled out a study that was conducted by the Harvard Business School published in the Harvard Business Review that indicates that the perception that people have, so it's not us being better or comparing apples and oranges, but the perception that people have of women's leadership in times of crisis is generally more favorable and women are seen and rated more positively exactly on those points that you made because we apparently rate more positively on 13 out of 19 competencies which is huge. And the big differences where we score better is taking initiative, so as you said being practical, inspiring, motivating, developing other people, valuing diversity, displaying high integrity and honesty and what's more engaging with other people. So it goes exactly to what you said. I think I would add being a little bit naughty that my experience over the years is that women probably do not put so much of their self-esteem in the picture and they don't mind if somebody else gets the credit. They don't mind if they don't look the toughest and the best and the greatest in the long game as long as it's a good game and that there are results and deliverables that are good. That's what I have observed. I think that our self-esteem is probably more rock solid and we don't have to challenge ourselves in the way I've seen quite a few men do. That's true. That's actually an interesting experience I have right now in the College of Commissioner. As you know, it's for the very first time, a gender balanced college. Thanks to you, by the way. You should not be shy about that. You made the point that for every candidate, there should be a man and a woman and you have full parity, right? We have full parity. Finally, I mean, I had asked the member states to send me a man and a woman for each potential commissioner. I was fun to see the reaction. Some of them did it. Others sent me three men to choose. Or yes, but there was also a member state that sent me two women. So and I had a lot of discussions with some heads of state and government whether it is necessary to have a man and a woman to come as a candidate for a commissioner. But now we have a gender balanced college. And the interesting part is that the typical pattern of behavior that you normally have in leading teams where you have a minority of women do not work anymore. So indeed, these patterns of being dominant, having the deeper voice and the louder voice and playing with your allies. These patterns just don't function if you have a gender balanced college. And this is very good because all of a sudden it's down to the question what are you contributing to the group? And so this was a very, very good experience we had. And did you find that disrupting for some of the members who were used to other patterns? At the beginning, indeed, some members went back into these typical patterns I've experienced over all these years in politics. But also, for example, if a member of college is discussing something, if then another group starts speaking with each other and being disrespectful. And what we did at the beginning is just say as women we stick together, we team up and we make sure that we develop new patterns and listening to each other, being mindful with each other. And it worked. It was interesting to see how well it worked. And now we benefit from this gender balance because there's a lot. The women can contribute, there's a lot the men can contribute and it's an environment where all of them have grown together and which convinces me again deeply you need this diversity. You need these different looks on problems or opportunities to come to good decisions. But it's fascinating because my experience in many corners actually, whether it was at the IMF or whether it is at the ECB, is that in the financial world it is still overcrowded with men and women are still a minority. To give you an example at the governing council table, there are 24 members of which only two women. So that sort of solid group that you have which allows a better balance within the group is not something that I have recently experienced. So I have to rely on other devices and other techniques to actually make sure that people listen to each other and in particular that they listen to women. So it's quite often that I had in the past 10 years or so I had to knock a little bit my microphone as I was sharing meetings just to remind the boys that they should listen to each other and in particular that they should listen to the girls. So it's fantastic that by having a sufficient number you can actually dispense with that and there's a rebalancing that takes place naturally within the group because you've decided that you were changing the pattern actually. So that's great. Now I thought maybe for the audience that cares to listen to us it might be interesting to actually appreciate what we had to do and what we went through or not in order to access the leadership position that we have and I think we should not be shy about it. Yes, we are leaders in our own way and yes we have had a path to leadership and I think as we look at that it's worth thinking about our daughters or daughter-in-law and the girls who maybe look up to us and say well if they did it maybe we can do it in order to help them travel that journey as well. Yes, I would love to reflect on that. Indeed, thinking back, the beginning was difficult and I think it was the beginning every woman knows when you come out of school you start your training or your studies and then the first child is born, you're in a job. I remember at that time that I was full of doubts whether it's the right thing I'm doing with trying to have a career and to have children and I was brought up in a family looking back that helped a lot that emphasized that education is important the most important part in your life and I had one sister and five brothers and my parents, thanks God, didn't make any difference what the boys and the girls are concerned but instilled in us this hunger for education. On the other hand when I started as a medical doctor and I had my first child, I remember my father was very supportive, he understood that I'm gonna choose a different approach to reconciling work and family and my wonderful mother, mother of seven two but she had completely given up her promising career when the first child was born and of course times were completely different. She was kind of ambivalent, she was proud of me and on the other hand, she was doubting whether this could work out. And I tell this story because I remember that it gave me at the beginning a lot of bad conscience. Is it the right thing I do? Do I neglect the children? Do I neglect the career? Can I make it? Well, looking back, I regret that I had this bad conscience because life taught me do what you want to do then you'll do it right and it's good for your partner, it's good for your children and it's good for your career. But Ursula, if you had your mother sort of having those doubts for you and what got you back onto the track of yes, I can do it? Was there something? Yes, I think there were two things. First of all, when I expected my first child, I was a medical doctor. I had a boss who said, okay, that's wonderful and I expect you to be back in a year to continue. And if he would not have said that, I don't think I would have gone back into the job. I just, I mean, the obstacles were at that time in the mid-80s, unsurmountable. And the second thing is when I had my third child as a young medical doctor, my husband too was a medical doctor, I was completely exhausted and I was about to give up. And I just had it, I couldn't manage anymore, the night shifts and all the pressure. And then we moved to the United States to California. My husband had to grant at Stanford and all of a sudden I came into an environment where they said, oh, you're both medical doctors, you have three children. So you will have to work a lot because, I mean, you will have to pay for the education of your children. How can we help you? And all of a sudden there was offers for childcare and they expected the father also to take time for the children. And this was a completely different environment and what I took from it is that it gives you an enormous amount of self-confidence and backing if you have a supportive environment. I never ever forgot that throughout my life and throughout the politics, just create first of all the supportive environment then it's way easier to manage all the other obstacles in it. Yeah, that I've experienced as well. It's interesting that you had one sister and five brothers. Were you the eldest? I was the third. But my little sister, when I was 13 and she was 11, she died of cancer. So I was then all of a sudden the only girl with five boys. And I was, of course, you can assume, the one who was caring and making sure that everybody was well and keeping the group together. I always had this impression I have to do that. So therefore, your question, was I the oldest one? Yeah, but see, I'm asking you, it's a pointed question because I was the only girl and the eldest in a family of five as well. No, you were seven. But I think it equips you a little bit for the rest of your life. Having to assert yourself, having to sometimes be a bit of a bossy boots with the boys and also caring for them if they are younger. And I had to face both, being bossy with the eldest of the boys and being like a second mother to the youngest ones. So I think it's good training for the rest of your life. Yes, there was one thing I realized later that I was used to the way when my brothers were fighting with me, being loud and being physical. And mainly this being louder than me just having the stronger voices. Later on in politics, I remember in the government, there were one or two situation where a colleague minister was yelling, really yelling at me. And it did not affect me. So I told them I'm gonna send them the bill for my ear doctor if they keep yelling at me. And looking back, I think the experience of having the brothers, I was well trained to say, okay, lower your voice and let's sort it out with words. Right, right. You know, when I look back at what has also helped me and you mentioned the word confidence and how the group of people around you in California gave you the confidence because they had expectations for you and they wanted to help. I think whoever helps you with confidence, whoever gives you the love, the affection, the expectations or the support that actually generates confidence is critically important. And for myself when I'm asked what has helped, I think the love of parents, brothers, children, husbands, whatever, that love empowers you and gives you the confidence that takes you just a little bit further and sometimes out of your comfort zone and helps you to say yes when any good risk management analysis would have led you to say no. When you were first asked to be a minister in the federal government of Germany, that was in 2005, right? Yeah. Yeah, so as I was asked to become member of the government in France, same time. What made you say yes? Well, it's exactly this experience, the first one I had a solid basis, which was my family, my husband, the children there, where I felt like I could sail out on the ocean. And the second one is, of course, I was full of hesitance and doubt whether I'm gonna be able to manage all that. But I thought if Angela Merkel is asking me to be a minister in her cabinet or government, then she expects you to be able to do it and she might be right that you can do it. And this empowerment by somebody who believes in you, I've never forgetting being in leading positions because I've met many young women who when I asked them, I wanted to promote them. The first reaction was, oh, I'm not sure whether I'm gonna be able to manage it. And I realized my duty is to tell them, but I believe in it. I am sure you can do it and I'll support you. And it always turned out good. So my experience is that women tend to be hesitant not to grab the opportunity too easily. And it's our responsibility mainly as female leaders to encourage them and to tell them, I believe in you. I'm sure you can make it and I'll support you. Yeah, very true. Very true. When I was appointed Minister of Economy and Finance for France, the same thing happened to me. The president said, I'm making a really strong choice in asking you to take that job, but I'm doing it because I think you can do it. And he added, you can't let me down. Oh, nice. And it creates that bind between you trying to live up to the expectation and the person who's appointed you actually having trust, but also having given you a big credit check by the same token. It's interesting. I want to add one thing, this personal encouragement has to be there, but us as politicians also looking back, I know there are preconditions that have to be there and you cannot influence as a person. That is for example, politics has to make sure that there is good childcare and good schools. So otherwise you have almost no chance. You need the infrastructure to have the reconciliation of work and family. And the second incentive is the father plays a role and men want to be fathers. They have to be able to take that room in the working environment as well as at home. So this combination is kind of, let's say an easing condition. Of course it's not the only one, but politics has to play its role in making it possible that young men and young women who wants to be fathers and mothers also can have a career and this is absolutely necessary. This is what you did when you were a minister, didn't you? You put in place this father- I did two things, I introduced parental leave that is being paid for mothers and fathers, but for both of them, take it or leave it. You cannot switch it. You cannot just dump it on your wife. And the second thing is after the parental leave for one year that is being paid that the child has a right to have childcare from the first year on. So there has to be the infrastructure that you then can have good childcare while pursuing also your career or being back in the job plain and simply. Well, that is clearly a benefit that is available in some of our developed countries and not all of them. I remember a very good friend of mine, a fantastic lawyer in her own right having built and probably having developed one of the best legal practice in India and reminding me that when she decided to get married her mother said to her, before you choose the husband make sure that you should choose the mother-in-law because she's the one that is going to help you become the lawyer that you want to be. So things are different in different countries of the world and even in our good Europe, there are countries where childcare is not as available as it is in others. So you're right, it's key. And I remember at that time it helped me a lot. The French example, with the maternelle and of course the Scandinavian countries and it was, I could at least convince that I said look at the children out there. Are they so different from children in Germany? No, so they're doing well. Children need other children. And so it helped a lot to have the models of countries that were far ahead of at that time Germany. And this was really helpful to see that, if you want to have the reconciliation of work and family, first of all, it's doable. And second, if you create the conditions you have satisfied mothers and fathers and this is doing good for the children and children have other children around them. Yeah, that's very true. And do you think that that has also addressed the issue that I think existed in Germany in particular because I had German young female lawyers friends who were telling me that after a certain time when it was genetically the moment to have children then they had to choose between carrier and family. But of course that was 30 years ago. And when I was challenging them on those issues they would say, well, yes, there is some kind of childcare available but what's more important is that the families, the neighbors, people in my community would really look down on me if I don't make the effort of raising my children. Do you think that has changed a bit? This has changed, fortunately. I mean, it was 30 years ago. Indeed, I remember that people said, so why are you having children if you're going to work? I love my children. And this was like a knife in my heart, of course. But with changing the environment we have now increasingly good childcare, this parental payments. The role of the fathers is completely different. So there is a generation of young men who just wanted to take their right to have time with their children to be a father. And this changed a lot. Of course it's never there where we want to be but it changed a lot. And this is, if you now look at the numbers in Germany there has been a change that you see even in the figures of children that are born and women being in the workforce. So it takes time. It takes at least a decade, if not two, but it's worth fighting for it. It's worth it. Can you look back at your professional carrier and the success that you've had? And can you identify moments when you've been subject to gender biases? And if so, how did you handle them? How did you manage? Oh, yes. I think you also can... Me too, yes. I would love to listen a bit to you too to start with, of course, at the beginning it was also are you able to do that? This is the underlying question. Is she able to do it? And I remember at the beginning for many, many years when I was a minister, I always got the question how are you managing with the children? And after, at the beginning I tried to explain then after a while I got so tired of it that I said before you don't ask this question to my male colleagues in the government, I will not answer to you anymore because I just was fed up to excuse myself and explain myself and that the other part that I observed is often when in media there are descriptions of a situation when they are concerning women, political situations, for example, women and I saw it in my own career, a lot of description how she's dressed, whether she has a red lipstick, how high the heels are, that's how the story begins. And I was wondering, do they ever write about the tie color of my male colleagues? Oh, I don't know, the jacket they have or how the hair is. Or the hairstyle. Yeah. And I guess you have experienced that too so this is something which is an approach which immediately puts a bias on the story and a different angle. I don't know, how was it in your life? I think it was, I'll give you two examples because to me they were emblematic of what I went through. When I was a lawyer and as a young partner, full-fledged, sharing the equity and all the rest of it, I was often working with a team and with a group of either younger or more senior men, none of them being a partner. And it happened to me once, I was actually pregnant, up to my nose and I was working on a deal and it was a late night negotiation, sort of one o'clock in the morning, all men in the room were still smoking in those days. And they had just sort of rotated a team and there were new Asian clients who had joined and one of them turned to me and asked if he could have some coffee. And I looked at him and I said, yes, of course, but you're going to get it yourself. And he was like, you know, shell shocked. And it took a couple of my associates to explain to him gently that I was not the secretary making coffee. I was actually the partner leading the team but that stereotype totally came across as they were thinking. If there was a woman in the room, she was here to serve coffee. So that was one. The second one I had, which I'm sure you also experienced, when I was first appointed as cabinet member as minister in charge of trade, we had this exercise which you went through as well, which is on questions to parliament and which is a very, in France, it's a horrible exercise where you are really in the center of the, it's like a bull with all the members of parliament throwing arrows at you and trying to get you in a way. And I remember walking to the podium where you have to answer the question and one senior member of parliament looking down on me and saying, I wonder who she's gone to bed with to be appointed where she is. No way. It wasn't the sort of vocal, loud question but it was a comment that I nonetheless heard. So I went to see him afterwards to explain to him that I didn't have to sleep with anybody to be where I was. And if he wanted to check my competence and skills, he was more than welcome to ask me technical questions that I would be very happy to answer. But yeah, those are the things that I think we, certainly I had to experienced in those days. And I hope that young women do not have as bad as those experience have been thanks to all the work that you've done that I've done that many other women have done going through that and standing tall and standing our ground and showing competence and being assertive without punching their face. I remember 15 years ago, more than 15 years when I just started as a family minister in one of the typical talk shows. One of the first questions of the moderator for me was have you already chosen whether you wanna be a bad mother or bad minister? No, no. I was chock-shelled at the beginning, but this taught me a lesson and, but okay, these were those days. And I hope indeed that things have improved but I mean there's still the stereotypes. What you need, I think the ice breakers, women like you who show that it's possible. And what I experienced is with the prejudices and the stereotype, what is also very important that you come with facts and figures and show what is really out there. In the armed forces, for example, there was always the prejudice the female soldiers have an advantage because they are women. And then I collected facts and figures. And this showed the huge disadvantage they had because they were women. You could show it in the course of their career where the men just had a steep improvement of their career and the female soldier not, although they had objectively the same achievements but there was the subjective evaluation of a group that was completely male of course as it mostly is in the armed forces to figure out whether this person is qualified for a higher career, a better career or not. And showing the fact and figures really was an eye opener for many who just weren't aware of it. So I think this is always, if you want to fight stereotypes the ice breakers, the networks but also the awareness of the unconscious biases is necessary to create that. But when you say facts and figures, it's you're right, it's getting down to the real things. You know, it's one thing that I've observed with many women leaders is that they know they file, they've done their homework and they've read their briefing more so than many men around. And I think, I mean, it's a sad reality that we have to put in more work but I think it's also a condition to actually challenge and defeat those stereotypes about us that, oh, we don't really know so well, we need a bit of help. No, we can actually master the game and we can actually do the work but we have to work a bit harder. That's what I've seen. Yes, and this is over time an advantage. That's also my experience. Because, I mean, through all these years and I guess you have the same experience, I've watched female leaders, mainly of course in politics and their advantage was then that they knew their files. They were clear on their arguments and when it's late at night or early in the morning in the negotiations, you still know exactly the detail you were working on and over time, that was their advantage. That was one of the reasons why they were so successful. So I learned a lot from that. So actually the good example, the role model, is also very important. I know exactly who you're talking about. Indeed. If we turn to the current situation, the months that we've gone through and that our compatriots, our colleagues, our friends have gone through, COVID-19, staying home, confinements, lockdown, schools closed. I think there are many studies now that are pointing in the direction of women had to put up with more. Women have suffered more and there is a risk that as we go back to this, whatever it is, new normal or this recovery phase, that women be left a little bit behind. What do you think we should do, could do in order to make sure that we don't lose the ground that they had gained in trying to have both a work life that was satisfactory or that they aspired to and a family life as well? So it's ambiguous. I think on one hand, the new work patterns. So this being able to work, I'm speaking of a non-corona world now, from everywhere, remote, has a big advantage for women. If it's not that you're not confined, of course, to your flat because of a corona world, but the fact that we've understood now that you, of course, do not have to travel the whole world for a meeting, but you can do it by VTC. And so if we use it in the right way, if we stick to the principle that we say, how you develop your work, it's your decision. We just are interested in the result. So wherever you work and with your laptop, wherever you connect, that's fine, that's your decision. But the result is important. If it goes that way, this is the right way to move it. On the other hand, you're right, I mean from domestic violence to indeed who's caring for the children who's doing the homeschooling. All these burning questions, we have to be very careful that we're not losing ground because or the other way around, the achievements are not to be taken for granted. And therefore, push forward with the positive part, but be very careful not to oversee that there might be a sliding back. And you know, I agree with you on the first point that you made, which is that in a way, working remotely, having the equipment, not being tied to a particular place or to a particular time of work as long as the deliverables are provided empowers those who can benefit from that. But how do we help people, particularly young people, draw the line between it's the typical work-life balance? But I've seen young economists or young financial guys and gals, both, work remotely so much and send emails at crazy hours in the night or so early in the morning that I just don't know how and when they sleep because they are really dedicated, they want to do the best they can, but they can't sort of draw the line between what is necessary for work, what satisfies the ambition and what is superfluous and simply just more and more and more because they can't stop. Yeah. That is something which is an issue. Yeah, absolutely, you're right. This is, of course, the new digital work environment where we have to establish rules to find a balance also to recover plain and simply to catch your breath again, to think something else. And I've seen over time those companies who established rules for the remote work so that you have, for example, the right to disconnect, that there's a certain time of the day where you say it is okay to go offline now so I do not have to be reachable every time. Those rules, transparent and fit for everybody, are extremely important to establish them. I am a strong believer that your team will be working better if there is the knowledge of this is the time where I work, this is the time where I'm offline, I do other stuff, I recover, I catch my breath, I think about something else. These rules have to be set in a company or an environment and this will be something I think that will follow us over the years, the more we are gonna go into the digitized work environment. And I think that we have to set the standards because I remember in my days at the IMF we had established a principle that any email that was sent after a certain time, I think it was 8 p.m. Had to incorporate at the bottom of the email sentence to the effect that this email does not need to be responded tonight and will wait until tomorrow morning in order to prevent the sort of very dedicated, very almost compulsive person, preventing that person from jumping to the keyboard, immediately dealing with the issue, doing the research and eventually going to bed at one o'clock in the morning. And what I was told by teams there was that the fact that some of my emails included that gave them the comfort that it was okay. And if their manager was sending something to them at 9 p.m., they would feel more comfortable saying, okay, I'll put that aside, I'll deal with it tomorrow when I wake up. So I think. Yeah, that is good. That is a very good advice. So I'll take on this. Yeah, that's very good. So thank you for raising that. That's a good idea. I'll do it from now on because you're absolutely right. You as a leader in your position, you have your own work pattern. And for example, I need to work on the weekend to manage the next week. So also to send emails. I don't know anybody who works as much as you do, by the way. No, no, no, no, no. Yes, yes, yes, yes. No, but to include this reference gives me the freedom to clean my inbox. But the receiver knows Monday morning when work starts, then it's time to reflect on that. Yeah, and there's so many things that can actually wait until Monday morning. It's interesting. All right, we're getting close to the end of our time together. And I think that it's good that we look at tomorrow and the day after tomorrow when things look better, are more positive and we're all more optimistic about the future and we are freer to go about our business and our life and our families. What is your hope for the future? Oh, my hope for the future is that we will, we will, you know, what we've been talking about, the achievements that will not only cherish them, but we will develop them. And that there are many questions we're dealing with today, the two of us or stories we are sharing. Our daughters will not have to deal with and also our sons will not have to deal with it anymore. So that's my hope that this is a stable ground they're starting from. And knowing that often you have backlashes, so be aware, don't take it for granted, fight for it and keep spirits high. I think you don't take it for granted is absolutely a spot on because I'm sometimes surprised when I tell the story of, you know, what happened to me when I was first applying for a job in a big French law firm and what comments were made and, you know, I was told, forget about ever being a partner and when asking why I was told because you're a woman, you know, young lawyers look at me and they, you know, as if I came from another planet which I'm thrilled about. And then they tell me a bit about their life and their struggle and how they can't make it to the top. And I say, well, you know what, don't take things for granted because there's always a reverse and you'd better be in the driving seat if you want to make progress and make sure that you protect those progress and move on for the next one after you. So my hope is that wherever I go, there will be a woman after me to succeed me and I was delighted that at the IMF that was the case. Wonderful. Final question that I want to ask you is, what advice, assume you go back in time, what advice would you give yourself that would have changed the course of the life that you've had to make it better either for yourself or your family or for the rest of the world? Well, yes, it would not have changed the course but it would have taken burden off my shoulder if I would have known, never let anybody give you a bad conscience. It's okay what you do. And the other one is dare to aim high, dare it. It's your choice. Yeah, that's very good. Perhaps I can ask you a last question. Okay. This year's theme for the International Women's Day is choose to challenge. Could you name one way in which we can all choose to challenge the status quo of gender equality in our everyday lives? You know, two things I would say. One is I want to challenge myself and I think it doesn't only apply to me, it applies to many, many women including in top leadership. And I've observed that and I could beat myself whenever I do it. I promise myself that I will not, as I do sometimes, take the floor or intervene in a discussion by saying, well, following up on the point made by so and so. Because I realized over the course of time that as you do that and as I do it, you actually use a little cane to continue the walk. And I don't think I need that cane. And I will try to avoid in the future saying, you know, picking up on what so and so said or following up on what Mr. X has stated. I will just make my point, point of finale. And the second thing that I will do and that I think we should all aspire to do which you have managed to do is to really buy name or shame however, make sure that we have more women at the head table. I have posted on one of my Twitter account a photo of my governing council here at the ECB even before Isabelle Schnabel joined where there were three women in the room, me at the table and two women on paintings hanging on the wall. And that should not happen. And if you've managed to do it as president of the commission, I cannot do it as president of the European Central Bank because it's not for me to pick and choose the governors of the national central banks that form the governing council. But I will continue to use all the voices and the noises that I can make to remind governments around Europe that it is also their duty to make way for women because they're just talented and good and they should find their way. Wonderful. Happy women's day, I can only say. Yes, happy women's day. You're right. And happy day to you, my friend. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot. Big hug. You too. Bye-bye. That's it for today's edition of the ECB podcast. We'd like to thank our colleagues at the European Commission in Brussels for their support. The ECB podcast is produced by Lena Sophie Demut, Daniel Weber and Katie Ranger. Editing is by Dirk Klaus and Angela Morant-Cassanova. You've been listening to the ECB podcast. If you like what you've heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. Until next time, thanks for listening.