 you just never really know until you're in the field what you might like, what you're good at. Just like I thought criminal defense wouldn't be it for me. And then once I got in the field, it opened my eyes and I discovered even that that was the field that I was passionate about. So Sabrina, welcome to you, our lawyer. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Yes. So you are a really special guest because I recorded with the founder of Justice Connection, Keisha Brown, is the founder because it definitely slipped my mind. And so we've been emailing each other, keeping in contact, pandemic parenting. And she's like, I know somebody that I think will be great on your podcast. I was like, send them to me. Tell me all about it. So she did give me your name and I did read your bio. But would you tell the audience a little bit about yourself? Sure. Again, thanks so much for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here. I am Sabrina Thompson. I am a immigration attorney. And I love saying that word. It's a fun word. I wish I could take credit for creating it, but I did not coin the term. It's a real term. Premigration is a new and developing area of law that combines criminal defense and immigration representation. And so that's my sweet spot. That's what I do. I've been practicing as an attorney for about 15 years now. I started out at the public defender's office. That was my first legal job. It was actually my first real job too. And it was fascinating. I absolutely loved it. It was, you know, some of the best years of my life. I learned a lot. And I took what I learned there and went and hung out my shingle about 10 years ago. I started my practice so that I could incorporate immigration law into my work because it is a work that I believe that I was created to do. And that's the reason why I decided to go work for myself. And so I've been doing that for the past 10 years. And so that's cool about me. So 10 years is a good amount of time though. I mean, what is it about criminal law, which is criminal and immigration law? Yes. Okay. What is it about that those two practice areas, the two of them together, that has been so entertaining for you and made you so successful as a lawyer? So I've always had a special connection to the immigrant community. I'm a daughter of an immigrant. My mom is from Haiti. And my father is petition. That's a small island in the Caribbean called St. Kids. That's where he's from. And he's always lived there. He hasn't lived here in the US. My mother immigrated here when she was pregnant with me. And I was raised by her and her family and just a community of immigrants. And so I have a very strong connection to the immigration mission and vision and the dreams that, you know, many immigrants come here and hold on to understand all of that. So when I went to law school, it was really with the purpose of finding a way to serve the immigrant community. And when my opportunity came at the public defender's office, I decided to pursue it, but always knowing that at some point in my career, I would have to make my way to practicing immigration law. But how the two intersect, that is especially intriguing. A lot of people don't realize when they have criminal charges, even some things that are considered minor like traffic charges. If they are not a citizen of the United States, those charges could actually have them end up in immigration court. They could end up facing even as grave consequences as deportation. People don't normally think to incorporate their immigration status in their criminal defense work, but it's something that's necessary. And at the time that people usually find out, it often is, if not too late, close to too late. And, you know, things can be difficult to undo on the back end. So I started seeing a lot of that in my work as a public defender, you know, I would be representing people who were non-citizens and finding people coming back like, oh, you know, what happened in court two months ago, two years ago, it's given me a problem with ICE. I need to undo it. What can I do? And I realized like, wow, it would be better if we kind of dealt with this on the front end instead of trying to undo it, you know, on the back end. Yeah, I can tell you, I've never thought about the two of those integrating criminal law and immigration law. I had never considered that. In fact, those were my questions. Like, is there a lot of overlap? But it sounds like there is. So yeah, in recent years with the different administrations, there has been, I guess, like a target almost within the immigrant community. So immigrants who have criminal or trap serious traffic charges are considered like an enforcement priority. And so ICE looks to generate cases against those people, right? So if somebody is here and they're out of status, or they don't have status, and then they also catch a criminal case that puts them essentially on ICE's radar to deal with their immigration problem. That's terrible. Different administrations do things so differently. Like, you have no continuity of enforcement or programming, like stuff changes whenever there's a new president in a new regime. It's pretty sad. So Sabrina, you've been on multiple 40 under 40 lists, you know, super lawyers of Maryland, things like that. Is that all from your criminal and immigration practice, or is it from some of the traffic law that you practice or what? It's from my practice doing all three. Those practice areas intersect really easily. And so the work that I do kind of one on top of the other, you know, it comes together. Okay. And so when I saw that you practice in traffic law, is that literally, you know, misdemeanors from people in car accidents or driving infractions, things like that, or what? It is. Sometimes it can escalate to become a felony. For instance, I had a DUI matter that I handled not too long ago. It was an unfortunate situation where a driver had an accident and her passenger was killed. And so ultimately she was charged with a felony for, you know, what resulted there. So even though it started as a traffic case, it escalated to be a serious felony charge that we had to deal with. So yeah, even traffic charges can end up being very serious cases. Yeah, that is one of the scary and amazing things about being a lawyer. The fact that we get to see how things can escalate, how they can start out as something just so small, you get comfortable and you get familiar with the nuances of life, even driving. I would have never imagined if a passenger, you know, died that that could end up being a felony, right? And it sounds like not only are you familiar with this, but you do this every day. I do. I do. Yeah. So, okay. So what exactly is it that you love about being a lawyer? Like you have said that you love lawyering. You love lawyering. What is it about being a lawyer that you truly enjoy? I think specifically what I love is fighting for justice, right? So people who are facing charges sometimes have done bad things, sometimes have not. But I'm a firm believer in the idea that everybody deserves quality representation, you know, regardless of what they are accused of having done, everybody deserves to have a competent, qualified and zealous advocate, you know, when they're up against the long arm of the law. Yeah, okay. And so you just take that attitude with you every day when you go to work. You're like, everyone deserves to be represented. I'm showing up whatever comes to me. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. It's my driving force. I mean, I literally am motivated, you know, by the work that I do. Is there anything specific about your personality that you think has made you a great lawyer? Like, is it the administrative part? Is it the organizing? And you're like, that really fits in with my job, which is being a lawyer? You know, probably the communication part. I am, I've been told and I like to pride myself on the fact that I am a great communicator. So that serves me, you know, in my role in advocating for my clients. Okay, very cool. So part of communicating and advocating is writing. I know lawyers, we love to write or we love to read or usually it's both. And I saw that for your day-to-day tasks, you do a lot of pre and post summaries, you do a lot of discovery requests, things like that. Do you actually enjoy the writing and research part to being a lawyer? I don't love it. Okay. Well, I said that one up wrong. I am at my best when I'm in court, you know, and it's funny because one of my closest friends, right? One of my near and dear sister friends, she's also an attorney and she hates being in court, right? And so it's just funny, you know, because we're so close, but we're so opposite in that way. I absolutely love, love, love being in court. I'm at my best there, you know, when I'm working. The writing and the research, you know, I do it when I have to, obviously it's a part of the job, so I do it. Okay. I mean, but that's why you're in litigation because you want to be in court, you want to be talking? Yep. Yep. Yep. Putting me in court, let me negotiate, let me argue. Yeah, that's where I want to be. So when you were in law school, did you know you wanted to get into litigation or did you kind of have a rocky path? So it's interesting because I knew I wanted to do something to help immigrants and, you know, kind of work in the immigrant community. But when I took immigration law in law school, it was like, you know, all these rules and regs and it just felt like a bunch of theory and it didn't feel like, you know, I could do anything meaningful with it. So I kind of like abandoned that for a while and said, well, let me pursue some other things. And I was sure I wouldn't like criminal defense. So I wasn't looking to do that at all. But my internship opportunities, both summers of law school came in prosecutorial offices in New York City. And I was like debating, like, should I do this? Because, you know, I've always been like, I don't want to do criminal law and I don't want to work for the man, like all of that. But, you know, it was like, that's where the opportunity was. So I took the job. One was at the New York City District Attorney's Office and the other was federal at the U.S. Attorney's Office in New York City. And I mean, it was fascinating. The experience was amazing. Once in a lifetime type of work. But I realized in those jobs, that's where I really realized, like, oh my gosh, I have to defend people. Like this system is unfair. This, this is not right. What these people do, like, I've got to be a defense attorney, like I have to. And so after I did that work, I did a criminal justice clinic at Howard, my last year in law school, doing criminal defense work and absolutely fell in love. And I said, yeah, this is, this is where I got to be. Okay. I don't hear stories like that too often where you set your mind to it and you stay in that and you enjoy it. Right. A lot of people will think, oh, this could be fun in a year. You're like, okay, the internship is not the same, but you still enjoy it. Like you, I can see it all over your face. You're like, I'm having a great time every day. Yeah, I do work that is very meaningful, you know, for me. So yeah. And, and, you know, I realized along the way that I am the kind of person that has to be working in a way that I enjoy, you know, because I'm not really cut out, you know, to do work that doesn't mean something to me that doesn't feel rewarding. That's not changing lives and helping people. That is just, it doesn't work for me. So yeah, I'm happy to be able to be doing work that I love. Okay, very cool. And because you work in so many different areas of law, you know, the criminal law, immigration law and then traffic law as well. What do you do to unwind? What do you do to stop thinking about the law and just enjoy being Sabrina? Well, like you and Keisha, I am a mommy also. So when I'm not working, I don't get too much time to myself these days, because my kids, their little, well, two of them are little, I have a, an 18 year old and I have a five year old and one year old. Okay. So, you know, they keep me busy. So there's not much unwinding that takes place. But when I do have some time, I enjoy dancing. So I do Zumba. I make time to get on my Peloton when I can. And I also love just hanging out with my friends. I have a couple good, good girlfriends that, you know, I like to bust it up with when time allows. Okay. Yeah, kids are really good for distracting you when you didn't even know you needed a distraction. You're just like, well, where did that come from? My little one just started daycare last week, because, you know, she was born in 2020. She was with us, my husband and I were working from home the last two years. And she already has a daycare code. So she was home with me all day. And I was like, well, this really threw a wrench into my week. Like I've just gotten comfortable with having all day to run errands and do stuff. And like, I was like, Oh, I can't believe I did this for two years, two years, just the two of the three of us, honestly, in one place. I was like, it was a nice week. It was a nice break I had for a week. So yeah, I've been there. My five year old when she started daycare, she got sick on the second day. So yeah, I remember that vividly. Yeah, but I'm like, okay, fight immune system. So we don't got to do this again. So I jumped right into it and didn't even get your background. You went to the University of Maryland for undergrad, and then you went to Howard for law school. Are you from the DMV area? You know, I'm not, I like to say I'm a citizen of the world. My husband tells me at this point, I'm from here because I've been here the longest, which is true, I have been here the longest. But no, so I lived in the Caribbean when I was very young. I was born here on the West Coast in California. And then I went to live in the Caribbean for a while with my father. And then I came back here and grew up in Philly and South Jersey. And then I went to undergrad at the University of Maryland Eastern Shore. And then that's in Princess Anne, Maryland, and then came for law school. And then I just decided I was going to just be here. You know, I really liked the vibe in DC. And it just felt right, you know, to stay here and put down roots here. And so yeah, I've been here ever since law school. Okay, cool. And so I made a note that you don't mention that you're a law school graduate, but as a practicing attorney, most people that come to you are coming for your legal services. Yes, for the most part. Okay, so it's not like you say, you know, I went to law school, they're hiring you because they need a lawyer. You know, that's funny though, because so on this side on the private side, yes, people kind of just know and assume that I've gone to law school. But funny enough, you know, there's this common myth or misunderstanding that public defenders are not lawyers. So when I was a public defender, people used to regularly like routinely one time I was in court and I got a really great result for a client. And he was so includes he's like, Oh my gosh, you're really good, you should go to law school one day, like you should become a lawyer, like you're really good. And I just say, you know, I might do that one day. Yeah, that was nice and humble of you. Thank you. Great suggestion. Like when I say people really, I guess the community and the people that the public defenders serve like the clients, many of them realize that public defenders are actual lawyers. So yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that. Yeah, well, that's when I started the podcast, I thought I was only going to talk to people who either didn't pass the bar exam or never took the bar. But then I started to realize there were so many interesting and cool lawyers out there. I was like, I'll talk to everybody, it doesn't really matter. So I do make a point to ask, you know, do you tell people you were a lawyer? Like, I've talked to photographers and architects and they're like, no, it doesn't matter. But I've never heard that about public defenders. So yeah. So speaking of DC, you are licensed to practice in DC and the Supreme Court and also in the district court. Do you have a favorite court that you go to or one that you really enjoy or have great experiences at? So I am licensed to practice in the US Supreme Court, although I've never done any cases there. And then my other licenses are in the federal court in Maryland and then in the state courts in Maryland. So immigration is interesting because it is federal jurisdiction. But the court where I used to be a public defender, I guess it's probably my favorite court just because I know everyone, you know, I know the judges, I know the court staff, I know the prosecutors. So it's just, it feels kind of like home because, you know, when you go there, everybody knows your name in other places that I go, you know, when people are not as familiar with me. So I guess if I had to pick one, I would say it's that jurisdiction. Yeah. Okay. So have you had any experiences in the United States Supreme Court? I mean, other than like the swearing in or when you had to go to register, do you go and visit their law library or anything? I'm not, I don't visit it regularly. I've been there, I've sat in on oral arguments before, but not routinely, you know, it's a nice place to be and it's, you know, it's very interesting, but time is tough. You're like, but I got a job and kids and... Very tight, you know, when you're operating a business and, you know, you're managing, you know, people and cases and small kids on top of it. Yeah. You know, it doesn't leave much time for fun things like that. Yeah. Okay. So Sabrina, I just have one last question here and that is what would you say to someone who is either in law school and trying to find a practice area that they want or someone who went to law school because they thought it was a good idea, but they don't know what to do next? So I would say to someone who's trying to find a practice area, you know, to keep an open mind, right? Because you have to be careful of your preconceived notions and stereotypes because you just never really know until you're in the field, you know, what you might like, what you're good at, just like I thought criminal defense wouldn't be it for me. And then once I got in the field, it opened my eyes and I discovered even, you know, that that was the field that I was passionate about unknowingly. So I'd say keep an open mind. Yeah. And if I can add to that, with what you're saying about trying something new, what if they're in the practice and you don't care for that, but then you open your own practice in the same area works for you, right? Because you did it working for the state or the, you know, whoever. And then you did it at working for yourself with your own practice and it is different. So Yeah. Well, for sure. One thing about working for myself, it affords me freedom, right? Which for me is extremely important because I have small kids and I really just enjoy my freedom. So that has been a wonderful blessing for me, you know, and working for myself. Now, working for myself does come with its fair share of obstacles, challenges, hardships, all that stuff too. But I have found that the good outweighs the bad. And so, you know, it's worth it for me. But yeah, for anyone, I would say if you find that, you know, something is not working well for you, don't be afraid to try a new way of doing it. You may discover that there's a better fit for you out there. Yeah, I agree. All right, cool. Well, Sabrina, I didn't have any other questions. Did you have any questions for me? Do you practice? I don't know. I used to work in trademarks and e-commerce. But I left March 2021. And I left to just do like consulting. And I've been doing that now. People hire me for like three or four months at a time. Some of it's remote, sometimes I go into the office. But no, now I'm just sharing my knowledge and having the freedom to say, oh, I guess I'm not working on Wednesday. My kids here with me. So that and then the podcasting. Yeah. So did you decide after law school that you didn't want to practice? No, not at all. I did not like the bar exam at all. I went to law school in Louisiana. I went to Southern University and I, the Louisiana bar exam just kicked my butt. And I was like, okay, while I was waiting to get my results, I moved back to Ohio. So now I'm in Ohio and I'm like, well, do I want to take it there again? And I was like, I don't want, I don't want to do this anymore because my husband and I would sit down beside each other and be working crazy hours. Like he's in, he calls it DevOps, like development ops for HR company and payroll. So we were both crazy workaholics. And then something changed. I really don't know if it was parenting or the pandemic that changed. And I was like, I think I want to be able to do whatever I want. And I had never considered that before. Like I was always like, give me a check every two weeks. I cannot wait. I like the stability. And then I was like, I think I want to do my own thing. I think I've seen enough. I think I've seen so much stuff that I could just do. I can make my own rules. And I've been doing it. I do have a great safety net. He has a nine to five. I'm on his insurance. So I'm not, you know, I am still getting leads on my own and making sure that like the stuff that I'm doing is profitable. But I'm, I'm able to just kind of make up my own rules. And it's nice. So we were both crazy workaholics. And then something changed. I really don't know if it was parenting or the pandemic that changed. And I was like, I think I want to be able to do whatever I want. So yeah, so I did not practice, but that was not by choice. It was by chance. I was like, I'm not doing, I can't, I took it in Ohio once. And then I was like, I'm not paying for it again. I'm not going through the hoops. I'm not turning in 15 years of credit reports. Nope, there's got to be something else for me to do. And I, there has been. So yeah, yeah, nice. That's that. All right. So thank you, Sabrina. It's been my pleasure. Thanks. Uh-huh. Bye.