 Good morning. My name is David Needham. I work for chapter three. For chapter three I'm a themeer and trainer so I make websites look beautiful and I travel around now officially travel around the world telling people about how much I love Drupal and and what it can do. Joining me today is Kate Miller in the back. She's gonna be helping to facilitate questions and discussion by by carrying a mic around so today is gonna be a little bit of an open forum we're gonna be discussing I'm gonna be speaking from my personal experiences but you know like like most things you know I'm sure that you each have your own opinion and especially when it comes to things internationally like I've only had experience telling people about Drupal in America so if you are not from America or you have more experience speaking in other countries I would definitely appreciate you giving your own opinion or you know when things differ when when maybe something I say it may not be true somewhere else please you know speak up and and just let us know so that myself and everyone else can benefit from that. And if you wave your hand madly I'll come with the mic and then it'll be recorded for posterity. That's right so the slides and the mic the audio is all being recorded so if you want to check this out later it will be posted on the page for this session on DrupalCon London. So as we said we work for chapter three I'm a trainer and themeer Kate is the training coordinator. Chapter three is a small ish web design shop a Drupal shop in San Francisco, California. Everything that we do is in Drupal you know training we do you know the actual design we do the site building development kind of the full spectrum and and along the way I learned that there were several different types of people and for each one of them you have to kind of describe what Drupal is in a different way so this this all stemmed from it was actually Kate's idea to begin with and it stemmed from this this idea of the first time that you meet someone whenever you're introduced to someone you know some friend or maybe you're speaking to a client or you know whatever the case may be they always end up asking so you know what's this Drupal thing or you know when you meet someone new you're introduced to them they always ask what is it you know what do you do and you say oh well I you know I build Drupal websites or or something like that and you know for the most part depending what group you're in they may not know what Drupal is and depending on that you have to kind of adjust this description of what exactly you think Drupal is so I say I build Drupal websites this is the sort of look I always get kind of a blank stare they're not exactly sure it's like you know Drupal what's that so first off kind of the the average person you have to be very basic with your description I just say like Drupal lets me build websites that help people build their own websites without needing to know anything about programming so you know to the most simplest simple isn't the right way to put it but for people who maybe don't have a technical background you can say that you build websites that help other people kind of build their own websites you provide the structure a Drupal helps you provide the structure that they otherwise wouldn't have you know people that that don't know HTML don't know CSS don't know PHP don't need to know any of those things in order to keep their website going to keep updating and maintaining their website along the way and then there's IT people so you know you might be working in a company where you know it's not a Drupal shop and you have to explain what Drupal is to IT people to kind of geeky you know server side you know Lennox people which is fine I know there are some of those here so I don't mean to offend if that's the case so in that case I would say Drupal is an open-source system for managing content and displaying it on the web there's no software install it works on every operating system even a mobile browser and it's modular so you have to be in this case I found it was better to be a little bit more technical you know they get a little bit more meat they can kind of understand a little bit more about what Drupal is meant for as well as you know the modular bit will help them to kind of help embrace it so that you can say hey you know this is a modular system I can extend upon it I can save tons of time I can save money you know I can save you know do good things for the company by using some things that other people have done so I can you know take those things and you know put them into my website put them into our company website and save everyone a lot of hassle and then of course there's Drupal people I believe this is from Copenhagen if we're at a convention like we are now you know Drupalcon you can be very open you can skip overall oh Drupal is open source or whatever you know if someone comes up to you here and they say hey you know what do you do you can say oh well I'm a Drupal thema you know I have a theme on Drupal.org I go to you this oh I went to Copenhagen I went to Drupalcon San Francisco Drupalcon Chicago you can say hey I volunteer maybe I help you know present I help to actually run some of these conferences and you can get in a lot more depth you can be a little bit more prideful a little bit you know proud of what you do and you can kind of explain that to them in a totally different way so I found this out I didn't I didn't find out the hard way fortunately but like when I was on the plane and I was filling up my little custom sheet I did not put Drupal I do Drupal it's an open source blah blah blah I just put I build websites or web designer of course you know if you're speaking to someone who really doesn't care what you do you know if they're the authorities if they're you know someone who's maybe just being polite I still just say I build websites there's kind of no way around that I found so based on this sort of structure you know translating Drupal in a different way for each individual group of people you're able to give very brief descriptions but you know in order to speak more more openly if they have questions about hey well you know that's cool where did Drupal come from you kind of need to know a little bit of the history so if you don't know already I'm just gonna give a brief history about where Drupal came from Drupal was started in 2001 by Dries B. O. Tartt I'm sure you all know him if you haven't had a chance to meet him he's the the giant with the spiky hair shake his hand is pretty cool he was at college with his friends and he basically needed a way to communicate with him he had to he wanted to let them know hey what's going on or you know to be able to share things to be able to talk about different events that might be going on basically he wanted to build Facebook unofficially it wasn't like Facebook for everyone it was just Facebook for his friends just a way to communicate a way to talk about their own things so he created the system he you know was in college you did all this and then afterwards he decided you know hey you know other people can benefit from this so the next year he decided to publish it online he said okay well what would be a good name for this he said that it's sort of like a community sort of like a village so he decided to name the first name for Drupal was Dorp which in Dutch if you don't know he's from Belgium in Dutch's community and if someone if I'm getting this wrong someone please finish village thank you so he named it Dorp he went online he's gonna look for a domain name he goes to type it in and he makes a typo instead of typing in dorp.org he types in drop.org and drop.org is available so he thinks hey you know it's it's not every day that you can get a a fork character domain name let alone something as cool as drop so he buys drop.org renames the project to you have to help me with the pronunciation like Drupal anyone okay okay so it's Drupal and it gets popular other people know about it it comes you know America we pronounce it horribly we can't get it right we mess it up we we mispronounce it we misspell it and it's just not working so he decides to make it a little bit simpler we keep trying to pronounce it Drupal and so he pronounce or he renames the project to me as it is today Drupal so it's much easier of course we still get people who try to pronounce it like Drupal we do a lot of trainings and it's kind of funny we'll get people at the very beginning they'll say Drupal and you can kind of tell about like what sort of experience they've had with the community or whatnot but so that's a basic history of Drupal if you're wondering about where the like Drupalacan the little drop came from that was kind of an iterative design process started with a droplet in a circle and it kind of progressed they're playing with different ideas and they realized if you put two droplets kind of side by side it looks like the infinity symbol so if you if you make the infinity symbol you put it within a drop or inside of a circle it sort of looks like eyes so if you look you can still see the infinity symbol as the eyes of the drop they added the face and the nose and Drupalacan was born so also Drupal is open source you can talk about this for a long time if you don't know this is Neil Drum core maintainer of Drupal 5 he works out of our office so I just had to include a picture of him and Drupal is open source so a lot of people when you first tell them this you know you say hey anyone can see the code you know it's it's a collaborative thing anyone can work on it you get a lot of flak sometimes from especially maybe not the IT people who are into Linux because they kind of get it but you know maybe your boss maybe anyone who might be a little bit less technical but a little bit you know they think they're technical they might hear open source they might think oh well that sounds horribly insecure it sounds like you know inefficient you know how am I supposed to get support how am I supposed to make sure it'll work exactly how I want it to and as you should all know by now like Drupal is one of the most secure if not these the most secure content management system today just because because everyone can see the code because we have so many talented people at Drupalcon today and you know throughout the world they look at the code they make suggestions it gets improved and it keeps going going going keeps getting better keeps getting cleaner and so I mean just try to use whatever experience you have in the community just to describe open source in that sort of way and of course there are always people who say well hey you know Drupal sucks I only use WordPress or you know I only use Jumla you know and and certainly there are some cases where WordPress or maybe Jumla would be okay don't don't come up here in like a mob and beat me up for that but you know if you're building just as a simple blog site you don't need any additional functionality you don't need anything you know too fancy just a very simple blog site with probably just like one person on it WordPress is totally okay like WordPress is really good at doing just a simple blog site if you want anything more than that if you want something with a little bit more meat a little bit you know more power of course you could use Drupal but even then you'll get people you'll get critics who can pretty much never agree that Drupal is good for anything and in those cases you kind of just have to roll with it and agree to disagree this is a great opportunity does anyone have a good story about maybe a someone who is against WordPress or against Drupal who's in favor of WordPress can someone share something wow yeah just wait for okay I don't have a story but where I work we are used to use WordPress and of course we are not against Drupal because I'm here but actually we feel like WordPress we can build great websites sorry no it's true you can build great websites with Drupal but it is incredibly limited you know if you try to grow beyond what WordPress is made for it becomes pretty difficult to add in those additional things I that's what I personally found thanks all right so the other side of this is maybe you're trying to describe what you know you know your Drupal skills or whatnot to a Drupal shop or to a freelance client or you know whatever just real quick could I get a hand count of who in here works for a company that only does Drupal or web design stuff okay who works for a company like on their website that is not a web design company couple okay and who in here does just freelance work like they're their own company okay so a couple of each mostly Drupal shops it's cool before I worked for chapter 3 I did all freelance so I have the background you know I kind of learned a little bit about what it takes to get work in the Drupal job in the Drupal field for in freelance work and I found that if you want a job in Drupal if you want to you know find work if you want to you know if you're freelance looking for clients or maybe you're looking for an official like official job with a shop or something it's always good to have a Drupal resume if you're targeting people if you're targeting clients they may not always care about that it's Drupal it's always good to have kind of Drupal separated it's always good to have just something you can show people to say hey here's my my Drupal skills you know here's the things that I'm good at in Drupal and that goes for the portfolio as well you know maybe you have a lot of experience building themes and you want to show this off well obviously you should have those up on your own your own website and a portfolio so you can show you know here's all the stuff that I'm good at because if you show it to a Drupal shop like someone that that only does Drupal stuff they probably don't care about you know what you've done in some of the other things you know maybe they're there they think it's interesting that you know flash or you know something else but maybe they don't so much care about that as much as the Drupal stuff also the next two here you know helping the community is pretty much the best way to get a job and that's that's how I was actually hired it at chapter 3 Drupal shops care a lot about people who care a lot about the community they want people who kind of are a little bit self-sacrificial you know they give up their time they give up their energy and for the good of the community to you know help people that are having problems you know to to come to events like this and kind of better themselves and just be able to to share you know through you know IRC you know helping people out there or to you know talk in forums or to you know add your code to patches and whatnot it's it's very common that if you if you'd like a job in a Drupal shop they'll look on Drupal.org and see what sort of things you've done so from your your Drupal profile you can see oh you know you've updated documentation or you know you've been involved with these various projects and we'll talk a little bit later there's there's another sort of service called certified to rock which will kind of help you to put your name out there too or to to give you a little bit of credibility in those and last one of course you're all here which is great if you're if you haven't volunteered at something like this before it's a great way to again just like help out the community to kind of rub shoulders and meet new people I got my job at chapter three because I went to Drupal Con San Francisco and I volunteered for every time slot so I didn't choose like what sessions I wanted to go to I volunteered for every time slot and I said okay send me to a room I'll be a room monitor and so I hopped around room to room and I did that and some of the people at chapter three who were helping to run Drupal Con San Francisco kind of noticed and they asked me to interview and so it ended up with a job can't guarantee that you all get jobs if you volunteer for everything and it's kind of a time sink as well but you know it's again like I wasn't doing it for the job I was doing because I enjoyed the people I enjoyed helping out and that is exactly what they were looking for so certified to rock a lot of you have asked what is certified to rock how does it work well basically you type in your Drupal dot org username and if you don't know this is a website called certified to rock dot com if you type in your Drupal org username like Dries it'll give you a score and if you type in like another name like one of our founders Josh Koenig you can see oh here's another score and if you type in someone like me it's not a great score so if you type in your name and it's not there yet if it doesn't come up with anything don't be afraid don't don't worry it doesn't register everyone on there it only registers people who have reached kind of a certain point and the way that it works is it takes all the things that are measurable on Drupal dot org it looks at the things that would have your name your Drupal username on it and it uses those to kind of add points to give yourself a score on certified to rock so you know anything that you leave a comment anytime that you are mentioned or you you say something in an issue queue you know whenever you help people in there ask for help your score can go up a little bit also if you submit patches you know if you say hey you know there's this problem to this module you know here's a patch to fix that and then even better if the module maintainer includes that you know if they pull that patch into their module and it gets accepted then again your score keeps going up and then of course if you become a maintainer a co-maintener of a module or theme your scores keeps on going up additionally I mentioned well I didn't mention but if you do documentation you know documentation is is pretty massive it's a massive undertaking on Drupal dot org just to keep everything up to date to keep everything relevant to you know Drupal 6, Drupal 7, Drupal 8 upcoming and so anytime that you can update any of that and and kind of keep it relevant if you try something that doesn't work right you know consider updating the documentation to reflect what didn't work for you or you know if you did get it to work then you know what steps you took to do that and then additionally they can manually add in some some extra points for things like if you have an active role in cons camps etc you know if the people at growing venture if you see maybe can't see it so well it's growing venture solutions under the company that kind of constructed this system if they're notified if you know if there's a camp if there's a con and they're notified that hey this person has this person was in charge of doing this particular thing at the camp you know then they say okay great you know give us you know give us a number of I think it's like one to three of like what good of a job not what good of a job but like how important they were like what they did you know what was their score for that and then your points can go up in that way so if you're involved if you have an official capacity or even if you volunteer sometimes they can put in some stuff there generally just be awesome I mean it's it's very general but you know if you do good things in Drupal if you do good things in the community and you you know even if you don't do it to be noticed chances are you will be noticed eventually you know people will see all the good things you're doing and you'll get credit for it so I took this quote from the Twitter at Drupal Truth the Drupal Information Minister if you don't follow him he's pretty hilarious but I asked him what is Drupal for the sake of this presentation he said what is Drupal it's the last thing you'll see before you're cast into the pit for your insulin questions so yeah it's a very tongue-in-cheek sort of Twitter account but definitely check it out and that's all I officially have I would definitely like I said this is a short throw of men as a discussion so I welcome questions comments additional topics if you all have anything to talk about I don't really understand this rock thing I mean for example I've been the product leader for Drupal Camp in Stockholm it was well last time and I haven't put it on the Drupal org profile or something and is it a link from Drupal org to I don't really understand how you can I don't understand really how it's working well yeah if you were involved with the camper con if you if you ran it or helped run it then you or someone else that's that isn't an official capacity of that group will notify growing venture solutions to say you know we you know here are the people that are involved please you know reward them for for for helping out and then your your points getting increased so you have to for those things because they can't they can't there's no way to like automatically check to see what there is and so you have to notify them and let them know that that there are points that should be given out for that it's good to update your profile I think yeah yeah it's always good to update your profile and keep things relevant if you have attended you know Drupal camps and cons and if you do you know documentation whatnot always mark those things in your profile too and also I should say like if it's not an instantaneous thing it takes a long time for for things to kind of go through the system and they only update it the only update score is about twice a year so if you've done something if you've been part of a camp if you you know helped with you know this today if you've recently started doing a modular theme you may not see points for that for several months it just it takes a while for them to go through everything any more questions or discussion topics I didn't do that to see how to walk away from the back to the front our company atomic we've got offices in Australia and we've got them here in England and sometimes we get we're pitching for jobs sometimes we directly get asked for Drupal as a CMS and sometimes it is okay what it is so I was wondering in the States do you do you get approached by people who only want Drupal or do you have the same same sort of thing as well I would say it's generally the same we get lots of people who come to us for Drupal and we are a Drupal shop we only do Drupal stuff so lots of people will come to us for Drupal but then there are several other you know job leads that we hear about where maybe we're applying you know we're putting a bid in for a project where it's just a project like they don't care they don't care if we use Drupal or you know whatever so both yeah any sort of standard blurbage I believe that there is something on our website chapter 3.com if not I've definitely seen things on on several websites where where they say here's why we do Drupal or you know why do we care and it kind of goes through those things but it touches on several of the things that we already know like you know it is a content management system it goes through and it's a modular system so it saves the client lots of time and money and not having to redo the wheel every time does that answer your question yeah I'm Jenny and I work in the user experience area and Drupal is brand new to me this week but I have come across people at our organization who when I mentioned the word Drupal they're like why on earth are we moving our website to Drupal it's crap like literally in those words and obviously I have no comeback and because I don't you know I'm still learning so is there like a bullet list of comebacks a bullet list of comebacks that sounds like a good thing for me to add to this presentation actually I mean it really depends a little bit on what their problem is with Drupal and then this can kind of go hand-in-hand with the the WordPress slide that I put in where you know why would you choose Drupal why not why not WordPress and there are several reasons I mean there's like I said it really depends on what their their criticisms are of Drupal well one thing I would definitely do is just show them some of the other websites that are using Drupal I mean Drupal isn't always known for you know being the fastest CMS or you know it's it's not known for those things but in truth like Drupal is very very fast when it's when it has these like performance enhancing things added to it so I mean some things you could definitely do for that just show them the websites you know show him you know like the economist comm yes New York Times yeah yeah the Acre website has some several great resources where they show you you know some some really large websites that are using Drupal so I mean if they're concerned about performance if they're concerned about you know our websites huge why would we consider using that well I mean there's a speed which which is not really concerned you know in the end you don't have to worry about like security so much because like I said you know it is the open source you know it's constantly being reviewed by the security committee I mean it's it's I don't know like I said it really depends a little bit on what what their criticisms are you know most definitely yeah yeah Drupal can be used for kind of like I mentioned earlier to take take the power of web design out of the hands of the programmers and it lets people who don't know anything about code who don't care to learn code and let them edit their own content let them even move stuff you know drag and drop around the page and put it where they want if you're using panels or blocks and then like if you use something like workflow or in Drupal 7 workbench you can do sort of this workflow to control you know at this stage you know there's a content creator role who's creating content and that's all they can see and then it goes up while the editor gets notified when they save the content but it doesn't get published yet until the editor looks at it and puts their stamp of approval and then it gets published and then you might have content curators who are moving stuff around the page and saying oh this should be featured on the front page or you know this should be featured on the top of the news you know story page or or something so it yeah I mean and you could do all of those things you could have you know dozens of people and hundreds of people in those roles who know nothing at all about Drupal who know nothing all about HTML or CSS all they do is type in the box and hit go and that's fine yeah and in Drupal is great at that too and it's great at controlling you know the process of creating the content and then managing the content and then they don't have to say this will show up on this page you know by using views and whatnot you can kind of have it pulled on to where it needs to go on the website too. This is Heather from Aquia and we do training and you know we also work on client sites and we get to see some worst practices as well as best practices but I think the thing that's really fundamental in explaining how Drupal works and I think we've talked a little about the UI and layout is actually understanding the database and even if people don't have any database experience at all they've all worked with Excel files so they can they can kind of understand rows and columns and fields and even if they know a little bit more about Excel you know generating you know some type of query that you can pull up certain types of information and that's what's really so different from Drupal from anything else and it causes a lot of confusion because there's this big middleman in Drupal. I always give the example if you are familiar with WordPress templating system the WP query being simply a line where you just say WP query give me a number of posts this is the category and it's right in the markup so even if you didn't know PHP you could just see it and be like oh okay and we and we instead have views and views is incredibly powerful you can do a lot more than you can with WordPress and yet it's I mean up until now it has been more complex and even with the UI improvements I still think its power isn't completely revealed until you go into the advanced section understand relationships and contextual filters now so going back to the idea that database again I've seen a situation where a company moved from a wiki system you know a really large company using a wiki really permissive trusting company with all their staff using wiki and it was very effective and yet it wasn't able to scale with 3000 employees and they moved to Drupal but they simply fork lifted all that wiki content into unstructured text fields and so now they're still doing the same thing they're actually like they've got an office manager in every office and that information instead of using a user reference for example that's all just added in a text field so in fact one unstructured text field along with their location information there you know everything that could be piece of information that could be queried somewhere else and so we showed them how to add you know a field so now at least they have a time zone field so that they can actually quickly see what time zone something's in and it's they really haven't even realized the the value of this idea of dynamic data and it's kind of like a real miss trick and I think that we have I think it's really important to just explain that database thing and and all the other stuff comes into place and then that page model problem kind of clicks together like oh right because all that stuff's in the database I need to query that and then make it display in different places because all of the other so many other systems are are so different they're really about the templates and the templating system like WordPress so I don't know if that helps anybody at all in their work thank you Heather I think to add on to the your question in the back about like bad experiences with Drupal I mean I would also see like I've seen several websites we know we've had from clients or from you know just looking at some websites you can see there are people who have definitely not built Drupal websites kind of the Drupal way there are lots of webs are there are lots of companies out there who say they do Drupal but they don't really do Drupal like you know they they might do PHP and you know Drupal provides you with PHP but you know they strip out all of the Drupal stuff that that kind of Drupal is great for and so when they're when they're content creators when they're you know the people who are actually using that website they they know we have a Drupal website but it's a really really hard to use really horrible Drupal website so if there's some sort of like unresolved you know maybe they need to see a therapist or something you know just to get over those those pains I mean I don't just it really comes down to the the person that's creating the website and you know if they do it in a good way that kind of end user experiences vastly improved yeah Barry I would I'm not gonna rip off that I just had a had a thought there are a lot of questions about your presentation is a lot about sort of the elevator speech approach to casually meeting people to talk about Drupal or or blurbage that a casual person would look at and say okay this is what this is why you do why you do Drupal as a as a Drupal shop or a company that does Drupal work we often want to get window down and be talking to people that have specific agendas or we often are talking to people that specific agendas so we always want to get down to what what are your goals before we get into any of the discussion especially evangelism keeping evangelism out of the picture until you get down to all right here specifically what we're talking about so not everybody has the capability doing this but especially if you if you are doing Drupal all the time and you have a shop and you have access to a community of people whether it's a community of web designers can be a community of people that are looking for Drupal sites we found that we like to do a general overview of Drupal so that people can get a context before we even get to that discussion so I don't have to do it you know do an hours worth of contextual discussion with everybody I talked to one-on-one a lot of people are very interested in Drupal and might come up to you personally but they are also the type of people especially if they're looking to use Drupal or thinking about different systems they would come to a one-hour or a two-hour thing to hear more about it so that they're informed to ask questions and then you have that discussion you get a lot further a lot faster so we did we went to a non-Drupal camp went to a non-profit technology camp and we did a you know a what is Drupal or introduction to Drupal overview and it was mobbed and people kept on emailing me and saying when you're doing that again so we started doing it we just started doing it on a monthly basis and have people show up you don't have to do it monthly but if you can do something like that have a semi-formal or even informal presentation going through some of the things that you talked about what is this Drupal thing what's the difference between this and other platforms and then it here's here's why we do it what are your questions then you get to a point where one-on-one conversations are far more fruitful and you weed out not you're trying to weed people out but people that are okay I know enough now to know that Drupal is crap and I'm out of the room then you don't have to get into those uncomfortable situations where you're trying to evangelize to somebody that's never going to hear you and you get into conversations with people that are really interested in talking further further with you so we found that to be extremely helpful as a as a community practice in our community so if anybody has the ability to do that highly recommend it I know aquea has the hello Drupal which is kind of sits in the space I think more directed to people that are going to do Drupal careers right right exactly and that's that's the space that we're trying to fill we're we're we're talking to people that are at companies or more often educational institutions or at nonprofits and I heard about this Drupal thing and people are telling me I need it this designer I talked to said I have to do Drupal you know why you know and then we have people that are are doing WordPress sites and are frustrated in one sense for certain types of sites that I've heard I should be doing Drupal sites too so that's kind of the space that that that we're in and the type of people we talk to so I recommend doing that yeah it's we do it's it's two it's two hours but well it ends up being two hours because it's extremely open and I answer questions along the way the presentation itself could probably fit in a half an hour 40 minutes maybe I think we did if I remember right we did we actually did an introduction to Drupal at Drupal camp Wisconsin or Minneapolis yep yeah and it was pretty great that was basically chopped completely the part I did with you was completely chopped out of our our intro to Drupal slides for that session and it went and went over really well at the camp setting too so it's not something you have to just do yourself you can you take it on the road question up in the front here faced with somebody who wants to develop their site in Ruby just from scratch without any content management system could you kind of give half a dozen kind of key things that doing it in Drupal would really improve their life I don't perhaps a couple of things that would I don't know anything about Ruby but so ever so I guess any anything I'm sure that there are people in the audience you know Ruby so I mean maybe you can touch on that I know for one thing when you get the structure the you know the content structure that Drupal gives you it's kind of like you're throwing into the bucket of you know the void of the database but by by putting it in these different sections you know the content the content types I'm using the queries that were mentioned there you can make views that have them display anywhere on your website you know just by entering them in one spot it kind of shows up everywhere and so you get that like self-curation you know automatic promotion feature also I know Drupal is really good at like RSS and posting to multiple websites at once you know so if you if you had like a multi-site setup you know you could run like several similar sites that are you know kind of running similar content and it shares the database it shares you know like those those different avenues and it can it can post them on all those different sites at once without you know having to do it I mean could you pass the mic sorry I when I get asked a question like that I'll never I never I'll never answer it until the my question back is what are you building and what is it going to do what do you need it to do what are the things that you need to be strong about this website what are the who's your audience for the website before I'll get into that question because there are eight billion things about Drupal and you know eight point two billion things about about Ruby just launching into a random these are six points about Drupal often will not hit upon the things that are critical for that project so understanding the you really have to understand the motivation of the person that's asking that question to be able to answer it to give the six things that are that are crucial for that particular situation I think that that's the one thing that that I always tell web designers that that I talked to is never get into the six things or never get into to launching about this is what's great about Drupal so you understand where the person that you're talking to is coming from not that you need to have an agenda but just so that you can be specific and and not and just not get flustered by that because there probably is a really good six points for the thing that you that you do but you'll never know which six points to cover until you understand what the goals of the person asking the question is it's very wise Barry any more questions or discussion topics or anything you guys want to talk about all right well I guess we'll call it a day again I was David Needham for chapter three and thank you for coming to my session