 This is Twists this week in science interview episode recorded on Friday, May 6th 2022 with our guest Gregory 4th. I'm Dr. Kiki and today we will fill your head with Hobbits Science to you Kiki and a good science to you too Justin and everyone out there welcome to a special interview Episode of this week in science. Thank you everyone for joining us for this episode We do hope that you will enjoy the show today on the show we are Speaking with dr. Gregory 4th about his new book which I will which I will introduce in just one moment But before we really jump into things I do want to remind everyone that if you have not yet subscribed to this week in science as a podcast You can find us all places podcasts are found look for this week in science We're also on twitch youtube and facebook where we stream live Every Wednesday at 8 p.m. Pacific time and very often now on Fridays at 11 a.m. Pacific time And you can find us on twitch and Instagram as twist science Just go to our website twist org if any of this is confusing or too complicated for you And while you're there click on that patreon link to support the show. Oh Right, let us jump into the show Our guest today is dr. Gregory 4th He received his doctorate at Oxford and was a professor of anthropology at the University of Alberta for more than three decades He's a fellow of the Royal Society of Canada and the author of more than 100 scholarly papers and several academic books We have him joining us today today to discuss his first book for a general audience called between ape and and human an Anthropologist on the trail of a hidden hominid. Thank you so much for joining us today dr. Ford. Thanks for coming. Thank you Let's just dive right in well, I guess take the first step on this trail that you've been on Can you yeah, can you tell us what was it that set you on the trail and how did you come to study? on the island of flores I Actually, I chose Indonesia and especially eastern Indonesia as my Geographical area of specialization when I began Doctoral studies way back when my interest at that time didn't have anything to do with With human evolution or hominin evolution I was still I'm a social or cultural Anthropologist and I was interested in such things as the indigenous religion of An island called Sumba Which is just to the south of Flores anyway In that was in the 1970s in the 80s I took up a position in Singapore initially a later in Bangkok with the British Institute Which is in Southeast Asia Which is one of the over what's one of the overseas institutes of the British Academy One of the requirements of that position was to start a new piece of research in in Southeast Asia and so I start fairly close to home I Which was Sumba at the time I decided that I wanted to look at some of the peoples on the island flores to the north ones about which not very much previously been written so I I chose in particular a people called Nage who reside right in the central part of Flores Island and Very soon after I began in Working in Flores researching in Flores. I I started to hear about small-bodied hominoids Called Abu Gogo which some people may be familiar with They're interesting. They're very naturalistically described, you know, they weren't like forest spirits or You know unicorns or ghosts and goblins for that matter naturalistically described and they're also said Already to be extinct. This is the the Abu Gogo Which of course is another naturalistic feature. I guess you could say anyway, I Continued I was researching a bunch of other things at that time This was by no means my sole topic but I Maintained an interest in these sorts of figures and found that they were mentioned in They were known shall we say in other parts of the island other parts of Flores as well And indeed in 2001 23 I began Researching in an area called Leo among the Leo people who are a father to the the East the eastern end of our Flores and There I started to hear about similar Beings a similar hominoids or hominids But once that was said still to be alive, although they're very rare So yeah, that was interesting in a duly duly noted in my my field my field notes Then it was a year later a year after 2003 and 2004 that the news broke about the discovery of homophoresiensis a very small-bodied hominin discovered at just one site only one site has ever been discovered for homophoresiensis in in the western part of Flores and I was quite amazed because this The way the paleoanthropologist reconstructed the species It was very similar to the descriptions. I'd been receiving from local people About a bugogo certainly, but also about the leo ape men as I called them for one of a better a Better term so I had the idea before that You know these things sound more than more than imaginary or less than imaginary Perhaps I should say and and I was I was interested in finding out well, you know people say they're seeing these things What exactly are they seeing what what sorts of? What sorts of explanations can we come up with for these? these claims and Indeed, I mean, that's what the book is all about. You know, it states the problem. It's the question and Outline several possibilities several hypotheses if you will and explores those one by one and comes up at the end with the controversial conclusion that The best way to explain these things is not as you know forest spirits or other supernatural beings or mistaken sightings of monkeys or Civets not as an undiscovered species of ape Not as a lost tribe that the leo people rarely come into contact with but indeed the best way to explain them you know with the evidence that available and Also, you know on the usual usual rational way of constructing An argument the best explanation was that they were seeing something And indeed or that some of them were seeing something something that indeed corresponded very closely to reconstructions of of this fossil hominin called Homo floresiensis and Yeah, I mean that is basically the book although there's a lot more in it than than that. I might just say the book is largely a series of reports of stories of Various sorts and they take up they take up four or five chapters in the center of Of the book, but then yeah towards the end I discuss, you know how it might be possible that something like this has Has survived Although that wording perhaps suggests that it's been extinct for a long time homo floresiensis Although of course that that's something we don't know especially because there's only ever been one one Location what one site for for the for the the remains So yeah, you know that that basically is it I discussed, you know problems in Writing about human evolution or indeed the evolution of any creature generally towards the end And I point out among other things that we are kind of stuck in the West at any rate with a notion of progress which kind of a unilinear Arrangement of things getting better and better all the time which You know sometimes even among dedicated scientists and other academics Interfers with our well with the thoughts of explanations. We're willing to we're willing to entertain among Other things one of those one of those one of those expectations that these habits sort of Countered was the expectation that with that small of a brain There shouldn't be technology. There shouldn't be you know this tool used in hunting and everything else And then we just right there. We kind of have to reassess. Okay. Well the size of the brain obviously Who wasn't the whole story but it seems very much to that they have defied what we considered possible Indeed although, you know that there are other questions I mean the evidence for well, let me say that that's something we we've come to know Relatively recently that we didn't know before is that chimpanzees and deed animal animals other nonhumans produce and use And use tools but for Fluorescence is well one thing I must say straight away is that I'm not committed to the hypothesis that these things descend from the the fossil remains of Fluorescence is that they could be a kind of a cousin species But I that's all you know Oh, that's all there's no evidence and we only have yeah Yeah, well then there have been hominins a small-bodied hominins Apparently on Flores according to the archaeological Paleontological evidence for for what could be a million years not a long time for something to evolve and to give rise to different Different branches. Yeah. Yeah, so I want to talk about the island of Flores and get you've been there You've you've been in the field. Can you set the scene of these different areas where? Abu go go has possibly used to live and then where the Leo people have Possibly still where they're possibly still seeing an extant preacher Yeah, well, I am convinced they're seeing something what it is is that more complex a question, but oh we've got a Yeah, that's the shade of it a long Relatively thin in many places Island, it's it's about the 10th the 10th largest of the numerous The numerous Indonesian Island, so it's quite big. It's not just some you know kind of South Pacific South Pacific Desert Island as they say with you know, just one coconut tree It is on the whole mountainous. Although the highest mountains are Towards the eastern end wet with a Leo that their country is very modernist and but also towards the the western end of Flores where the the site containing Fluorescence this remains was was discovered in in 20 Actually in 2003 but announced in 2004 What else to say it is it is tropical It's you know climate-wise Ecologically as well, it's pretty it's pretty various so on the north coast Well on the coast generally but especially on the north coast you have very very dry conditions very very hot as Well the north coast especially the northwest Part northwestern part of the island is where you find Komodo dragons Which by the way are another 10-foot long Lizards that the biggest Lizard in the world That's you know quite well named as as dragons Yeah, they're found in in very very dry areas dry dry coastal areas They too by the way were known to local people before before they were discovered, you know by Western scientists they're Dutch scientists early in the 20th 20th century so yeah dry on the coast especially the north coast The interior areas are much much better Watered you know So you're talking about tropical forest in in many places high up and in the mountains where you get to the most the most Rain yeah, so how so how would Would these mountains and the forests influence? The stories and how possibly the the interactions of the people on the on this island Did do the people interact the stereo do the stories travel from one end of the island to the other? Very good question. Yeah Well that there are some of the these The these hominoids You'll notice I'm using hominin and hominoid and so on there are distinctions, but we needn't worry about these things human like creatures in other words There are stories that we can call myths because they happen You know at some time in the distant past. We don't know when we don't know the names of the characters That they contain a fantastic or supernatural elements therefore Anthropologists call them myths some of those are quite similar to one another. So there is evidence of Of them having traveled on the whole though. I will say that Certainly before that they built modern roads Travel on flores was was pretty pretty difficult and Yeah, it's not that easy at present either it takes a long time to get around You know even even with the modern trans flores highway But no, I just talking about separation of peoples. Yes, you have a number of distinct estimate linguistic groups Several different language language families The Nage in central flores in the Leo towards the east speak languages of of the same family But they are they are different, you know, like English and Dutch and German sort of thing Maybe not quite that distinct, but you get you get enough of an isolated history even being on the same island. Oh Yes, yeah, no, I mean people adapted to you know, they're localities. They did trade With with neighbors, but on the whole you know people spent Their lives within a fairly small compass just one Example it in in Nage, which is the area. I know best you can go Just four or five kilometers away and find different names for things different different words Even different words for such basic concepts as to go or to travel And so and so I Mind you, I mean local people pretty good with languages and they're often bilingual or even Even multilingual, but but I mean that will give you some idea of the Some idea of the the isolation which has changed since the colonial era, which began back in the in the 20th 20th century didn't last too long, but you know, yeah, and you you wrote a book previously though about Discussing metaphor and oh, yeah, the title of your book was so fabulous a dog pissing at the edge of a path Actually that won the diagram prize for 2019 or 2020 one or the other The diagram prize, which is the most unusual unusual title Some people don't like winning that because it suggests you the rest of the book is inconsequential or Only only the title is worth is worth reading, but I thought it's pretty good title You know, it is a direct translation of one of the of one of the metaphors that People in the Nagy region specifically use yeah and do you find especially with these different languages the metaphors that you know, obviously I'm not saying obviously but Metaphors there do they differ as much as the words for things Some facility in the Leo language because my knowledge of Nagy they are you know that closely related Although as I've said there are there are differences. I haven't paid that much attention to To metaphors in Leo, but I know some are the same and to one thing that particularly interested me about these metaphors is is how some Tall intents and purposes the same as ones you find in English. So You know, what does that say about the human mind? So so you got these two sort of groups and they both have they both have identified This this creature is being part of their cultural knowledge And are they are they very similar or how do they how do they differ in any way between these two? interpretations of this They the hominoids, how do they differ or how do these how do they they have two different versions of the ogobogo? I'm gonna say Yeah, and then In the leo's yeah leos they have a slightly different version of this this sighting Similar is it how different? um, okay, I um Well, one thing to say of course is that the according to the nage that the ogobogo are extinct. So um, you know We haven't seen them in a long time Yeah, yeah, no so so that there are no I know sightings. There's actually an exception of that in the book But I won't go into it for now Um, yeah, well, I mean we assume that most of what people say about ogobogo is passed on, you know within within families and villages and and so on um, the ogobogo if anything if you can make a difference in in the content Or notice the difference in the content of the descriptions the the eight men of leo are smaller And perhaps less less hairy as well and the descriptions tend to be a bit more various In in regard to such things as as height, of course that would apply especially Anyway to to sightings because people are seeing things, you know, presumably they're well, they're seeing different individuals at different times they're seeing different genders different ages and Uh, and so on so you find the sort of variations that you would expect to see in You know any any natural species? And then the extinct version Is there any indication of how far back they are they are thinking? Uh, it was uh seen or yeah, yeah, I mean I I would say Several hundreds of years is probably not a bad. Uh, yeah, I mean I have uh, I made another book I sort of analyzed this question and and uh, I mean if you look at what genealogies are available and now get a very good genealogist um, that then, you know, it could be as recent as as uh, you know, 200 or just over 200 years, but um, the um The point is that those genealogies indeed aren't always accurate so it Yeah, it would probably be longer than than that And and and there is a suspension of all doubt in in in this conversation in that the what is it the most recent from that site That has been dated is like now 40 50 000 years somewhere in that 50 to 60 actually Yeah, it was previously, uh Uh, uh, there was that tantalizing Yeah, yeah 10 000 year Uh for a for a bit was floating out there, but then that one well, it was uh, Yeah, 12 000 I think was it was the most usual date in print which was extraordinarily recent actually 50 60 000 years ago was extraordinary extraordinarily recent for uh for for our hominin quite distinct from uh from homo Homo sapiens and uh, one thing I was going to say is that the remains of I think 13 individuals at liangboa the single site Um covers, you know tens of thousands of years um So, you know, these things were around in in that that area for uh for quite a long time, but but you know by the same token that they were elsewhere obviously elsewhere on the island as well and and we don't know how long they uh But you mentioned that some of it was there was there was other evidence and I don't recall I guess it's not identified as uh, homofloreansis But there was other evidence suggesting, you know, 750 800 000 year That's right. Yeah, and what is what is that? What is that? well, it uh It's curious because um, well, let me say first of all that that uh, that the evidence can a few teeth couple of teeth and Fragment of a manable um, but um And all that was very deliberately searched for because that area that was in central florist Just to the north of the nagi folk. I know in fact, you know, they claim that as part of their territory um They they were looking for that quite deliberately for for uh, uh, 10 000 10 years And and uh, you know, they finally uh hit pay dirt as as they say Yeah I just want to say that there's a huge debate going on because people because that that older finding of at least some hominin Yeah pieces Help put the better debate that this was microcephalus disease or this was a strange grip like there was so many people who were You know arguing making arguments in in different directions about what the human know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I think a lot of that was put to rest by by now, but I just want to say about the um, the uh, um, Central florinese finds the the the reason they they went there is because this is an area very rich indeed uh in stagodon Fossils these are prehistoric elephants basically like mastodons and mammoths, so Um, and but they're very a small version though, right? Well, then there are several species of stagodon somewhere with these two species. I think it is of uh, Of pygmy stagodons, but to get back to the hominin remains the teeth and the bit of a mandible It's been shown that I was very small sample, of course, but um, it's been shown that um This this individual or individuals more than one individual actually Were even smaller than than furies the answers. So if we're talking about, you know, uh, at most a meter or so for furies the answers um, that then in this case we're talking about something like like, uh um 70 centimeters which in uh In feet and inches is what is it just over two feet something something like that? Uh, um, yeah, you know 30 inches Yeah So that is very very tiny and of course there's this record going back as I say Uh a thousand years or so it is quite unprecedented Elsewhere in the world and and it as a consequence it's made flores a very, uh, a very, um, special place um, I don't know if you remember back in in, um, well around 24 when the news broke of flores the answers there was a, um A picture created by, uh an australian paleo artist which showed one of one of these flores the answers is with, um carrying a large rodent over its shoulder does that ring a bell? I'm not remembering that but there have been many images, but yes Yeah, yeah a lot of the paleos didn't like that one but but uh partly because it was a man Whereas the the type specimen Was a woman Is a female yeah But um, I just want to say with regard to the special uh character of flores that uh It has the world's largest rat Which is a wild creature doesn't learn houses Uh and it's endemic means it's found only on flores and there's a picture of it in the book um And it that's this is the guy with the thing. Yeah A picture of it in the book and and it's like I mean with the tail it's it's it's about three feet long this rat so You know the nightmare of of every cat getting back to cats um and um Yeah, I know this is quite possibly one of the things that uh the eight men Thoreziensis other other hominins could have Could have prayed on although the evidence suggests that they were mostly vegetarians And so there's enough vegetarian food about uh, and there's also the question of how they would hunt something like that because uh, Although it's just a rat it is a ferocious um Animal in fact I discussed that aspect of the creature in my uh metaphor book I wonder you know if uh if floresiensis even with its small stature smallish brain We know that many uh chimpanzee and other primate species human species hunt in groups And so there's a like a hack hunting behavior. And so if it's you know this ferocious big rat Perhaps they were hunting in groups and that made it possible Yeah at the same time it helps to have dogs to kill these things which and and Skilled dogs as well which um thoreziensis definitely wouldn't have had I mean one thing I want to say and I'm glad you mentioned that The the thoreziensis just to speak of him Or her has a brain about the size of a chimpanzees um The brain is small In in size in volume even in relation to to the small Small body There have been arguments advanced that although it was small it was complex and and uh, you know, so the the the um The species could be could have been capable of uh of complex complex thought Which is fair enough, but but there hasn't been uh a lot of evidence in fact that they the question is still open really about Whether they they made tools or stone tools perhaps more specifically And indeed, uh, whether whether they they could make um They could make fire, which is something different from using using fire And of course language is another question that comes into this and I might say that the ape man if you take uh The the evidence of the ape man and lia was definitive that then They they were They were culturalists, which is to say they didn't have for nothing. They'd not have clothes and Uh Houses and the rest of the they they didn't have any technology or or fire or although such a thing, you know can can be uh Can certainly be overlooked. You have to be a trial archaeologist to recognize And if the weather's good if the if the weather's nice Do you really need all that stuff? Well, it's interesting because um flora especially up in the mountains can get quite cool at at nights as I know from um My own my own experience and there is a question there relating to the the hairiness of past Or in present non sapiens Hominins basically it it suggested that and I'm simplifying necessarily that Uh, what once you have fire once you have Clothing and and shelters or some sort then you don't you don't need hair so it can It can disappear in an evolutionary sense for For other reasons So these things being described as hairy kind of fits nicely with them being described as Apparently not having any any technology to Speak of I what I also want to say I I had problems writing the book And I still have problems writing about The man and floresiensis In describing them as human or humans you might say another Well something like ethnocentric I supposed to be you know that the the original name for floresiensis Homo floresiensis Took it out of the homo. It was a name sundanthropus um And that was that that was proposed by peter brown an anatomist and physical Anthropologist who did a lot of work on on the remains And is that that was that was something about uh, was it the wrist or something the wrist or the shoulder seemed Or okay black to him Right. No a wrist shoulders feet And uh, well the teeth to to some extent, but certainly wrists and shoulders and limbs and so on um, I'm more comparable to Well some to to a chimpanzee or even a gibbon comes in there. So Um, that's the wrists. I think or indeed an osteopathy scene, which is uh, It probably are one of our ancestors. You know, it goes back several millions of of years in uh, In africa similarly small-bodied by the way and um Well, there's a lot more to say about the comparison with uh australopithecines or southern 8 um sundanthropus by the way sunday is is a geological term for a large part of indonesia Anthropus means actually means man, but it's uh, curiously enough. It's always been used to refer to Things that weren't weren't homo what weren't What weren't um I think i'm right saying weren't hominin. Um, but uh, yeah, it's a kind of a kind of a fine fine distinction. Anyway, you know It took um that name would have taken floresiensis right out of uh Right out of the category of of of homo Hmm So i went to which um, if you talk about hominin by the way, uh, australopithecines Yeah, do belong to that. So it gets gets a bit A bit complex, but it is i mean I haven't decided but i attended the view that that uh, this was something quite far removed from from humans, especially anatomically modern humans and if so that that Um, I mean it's a bit of a generalization, but it does suggest that it would have had a better Chance of of survival. I mean when you have two populations of the same species Competing over the same resources, then you know, you're going to have uh, you're going to have trouble. Um Although it's commonly the case that you have very closely related species of things. Um Uh sharing the same same territory, maybe not exactly the same territory, but uh, you know overlapping in their, uh Um in their territories like like in alberta here We have two two species of bears two species of deer and and on and on Um, and they're all in the same same genus and and so on. So I um had one reason I like uh the uh the term ape man, especially the The ape part. Um It is it Is a bipedal and um A rec standing bipedal walking ape um Possible or or or not. Um, you might say well, of course it's possible. We're bipedal apes, right? Yeah, exactly I think you get my meaning, you know something Much more like an australopithecine, uh, which which was was bipedal as well, but um, uh Something in certain respects more like, um That like like a chimpanzee that's walked exclusively on uh, uh on two Two limbs. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a whole interesting side piece there too and we're talking about evolution And we were talking at some point earlier about the, you know, that's thinking of things in a linear progression Most of those knuckle walking apes Learned to do it. They you know, they didn't necessarily start that way. They may have we may have had a semi at least bipedal Uh ancestor that we share in common with them It's not that it's not that mankind had to come off of the knuckles and then walk upright We may have already had that To some extent, you know, not like Yeah, but there's so much that we still really don't there's so much that we still really don't know, right? Oh, yeah, we're putting the story all together with these bits and pieces of fossils Which are often incomplete or you know, we don't have many many samples of and then all and then I I think we're also putting it together with these indigenous stories and You know trying to trying to play forensics, you know Forensic researcher to tell the story of human evolution or you know, the story of life on earth Like is is the way that you're approaching telling this story is it different from say the geneticists and the The other natural scientists who are maybe looking at, you know, this very physical evidence Yeah, well, I mean, I will say that for most paleontologists biologists and so on that the only evidence is is the only thing that counts as real evidence is Is is physical evidence in a body or bodies or, you know, the fossilized remains of the thing The kind of evidence I deal in most of it it tends to be dismissed as Well, mythical Or you know folklore That must and that must have been that must have been a really like like I was Blown away when the details the physical finds were coming in but I wasn't sitting there Having heard two versions of this story From the people in that area. I mean it must have been a pretty quick Uh, a pretty quick big light that went on in your head and go wait a second That's not just a physical find. I've been hearing about this Well, that's right. I mean, it's that kind of evidence and it's ethnographic evidence basically that that uh natural scientists Most of them there are exceptions, but most of them wouldn't Wouldn't accept. Um, but but at the same time, of course, if you talk about paleontology the, um The evidence for anything is extraordinarily slim. I do discuss Towards the end of my book the the the state of the Fossil record, you know, how unlikely it is that that that anything that's existed becomes Fossilized even just one individual and then you look at the the chances of somebody actually finding that thing And bearing in mind that most Fossil finds are discovered fortuitously quite quite by accident Relatively rare cases to somebody actually think wow, I mean they construct a theory, you know There must have been something like this as well and they go out and and And and look for it and and of course they have to find it then Best known example in human paleontology is is the so-called java man of pithicanthropus, which means eight man by the way Um as as it was then it was then called Yeah, there was a medical doctor actually called dubois who Reckoned that this sort of thing had existed And that a very good place to find it would be the east indies which was convenient because he was a dutchman Uh and employed in the the military medical service and he went out looking for the the thing and found it Um, so that but that's very very much the exception that uh, you know proves the Proves the rule. So, you know, we're looking nothing like a A representative or a random sample here when when we talk about, uh, um physical You know purely purely physical evidence. So i'm suggesting i think that was you know, maybe other sorts of evidence should be Uh considered as well Yeah, and i think that was sort of my point too about talking about how the most recent Uh version of it is now that maybe 60 000 years old That's that doesn't mean that it disappeared 60 000 years ago. No, that's just that's just our our snapshot like you're you're describing Yeah, that's right. Yeah, although unfortunately Biologists paleontologists do say oh, this is when it became extinct You know became extinct you'll read that over and over again. Um, you know with respect to any any number of uh Of ancient species or what I thought to be ancient species something I discuss also in the book, uh is um The creatures that that were thought to be long extinct, you know millions of years ago They died out but which have shown up in in uh, I guess it's all in the 20th century now Um, one is one is uh, uh, uh seal accounts, which is a large primitive fish fish um, in fact, that was there are two species of those one found, uh off the coast of south Africa um And the other was found in indonesia as a matter of fact, uh uh in a fish market Uh of all places luckily that the person who found it just happened to be a biologist or oceanographer on holiday. Right place, right time. Yeah so you see how much chance comes into this. I mean it's very possible if just a few things have been different during the 20th century that that very possible that we would know anything about homophoresiensis you know and so homophoresiensis made a big difference in terms of this view of of hominin evolution as producing a kind of a bushy tree meaning that you have a number of species alive at the same time although you know until 20 years ago nothing so different as homo sapiens say and and homophoresiensis or sundanthropus if you want to call them that but then again there was a lot of overlap with just talking about overlap in time with with between modern humans and Neanderthals, Neanderthalensis, Homo erectus also. You know the eight man. Seems to have really gotten around for a very long time. Well highly successful species you know a couple of million years that may well be better than we do but that that overlaps with homo sapiens by what at least a hundred thousand years and you know depending on definitions maybe maybe twice that long so you know. I'd like to know. We talked about the end date. It's also when they put a start date on a species. I also always find that very very fascinating. Of course it's the earliest, it's not a real start, it's the earliest evidence. That is fine, that is dating fine. Yeah yeah so how long before that we don't know. I mean you mentioned earlier like you know the the colonist perspective, the Western colonist perspective coming in and kind of bringing our own view of how things worked into the native people and indigenous cultures and as we're you know finding out more and more you know in aboriginal cultures in Australia they you know there's knowledge going back you know not tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of years and yes steep and so if we start looking at you know this braided stream the the bushy tree the Neanderthals who lived at the same time as Homo sapien in Europe and Homo erectus and other species how much do you think that we have to learn from our own about our own human history from just listening to these indigenous folklorists and well what are we doing wrong that we aren't that we aren't hearing more. Yeah yeah you know it's a difficult question because people like the Leo or the Nage just to speak of them they believe in the existence of say believe they describe that they they accept as real what we would call spirits forest spirits spirits of the dead active in in this world and and on and on so you know you have to be careful in in distinguishing different categories at the same time they they talk about all kinds of of animals of creatures that exist in their territory or used to exist and and they line up very nicely as a matter of fact with with the views of zoologists or orthologists and and all the what is an example of that is an example of that like do they have like there was like there was such strange fauna there like there was a there was a giant pelican or something that was roaming around like stork yeah yeah her story thank you yeah no I I don't I don't think that's known to to local people that goes that goes back you know some some some time that that very probably is is extinct but um a what can I say I mean that they have that they have special names for most most species of birds that are found in the territory you know whether they're useful to them or or not uh whether particularly significantly they say identify these and classify them and as I said um give them names fortunately the um well several people on on flurries um certainly the leo uh make their own distinction uh between what we would call spirits uh and and other other existent things um so they say that spirits and and their high god if you will as well are uh my mesa which my mesa means only soul or only spirit in other words they don't fukimona is the way they uh nage put it they don't they're bodyless right and they also say they're invisible um except perhaps to special individuals on on you know rare rare occasions so this sort of thing is always always an exception but with regard to the eight men they say no they're not like that at all that they're you know they they do have special powers but then so do a lot of other uh ordinary animals like um you know crabs and um turtles and and sea cows and well even monkeys in certain um respects uh but but nevertheless that the eight men are different anybody can see one more than one person can see it at the same time um you know that they they give birth they die they have to eat and all these other things that spirits typically um don't uh held not to do so so that's that's very helpful and it is a distinction that doesn't reflect the influence of western education or anything like that right um i can show that by reference to very old missionary dictionaries and uh and the like yeah so another important point in the book yeah that's fat i mean this is all so fascinating and i don't want to keep you too long um so with the book what do you hope really like in in the in the single concept or the most important thing what is what do you hope that people get from your book that they take with them um well a number of things i i am by no means anti scientific as as some people in your country these days seem to be very very sadly um no i mean i consider myself a scientist of sorts at any rate now i respect the scientific method but but um sometimes perhaps even necessarily a science uh uh it is restricted to a very narrow and conservative um view of things there's a lot of boundary maintenance in in science as there is in other academic uh in other academic uh discipline so i i'm just hoping that people will well one thing i'm hoping is of course is that people read the book uh and that when they do that they will find it um say enjoyable or fun i those terms are perhaps not serious enough but but uh that that it will it will get them thinking about embarrassings if they can think in such a way that they find that they have you know pretty conclusive evidence that what i'm saying is learned and on since that's fine that's fine so but but nevertheless it's the it's the open mind i i hope that it will um also help people realize that um non-western peoples in in uh in small simply organized societies communities um living in places that we we tend to think of as you know the back and beyond or uh the ends of of the earth that people will people you know English readers will realize that these people know a lot you know even though they don't have all the technology and uh material uh trappings that that we do that these people are uh are no fools that they have to live within their environment and they have to know uh know about it so they really are a source i don't say that they their knowledge their folk zoology for example should replace scientific or academic zoology i'm just saying that that you know that there is um room for complementarity here right because in some ways it's going to be it's going to be more accurate and specific to actually living in that environment whereas the scientific view is going to be what do we take away and analyze from this without living in this environment day to day the the sort of biology knowledge that you learn living generations in a biome without destroying it is a different knowledge but it's absolutely biological knowledge yeah um well that that uh that that's right i i mean obviously there are differences between academic biology and and what we call folk folk biology which all of us all of us have um but but they were one started with the other in fact i mean it's been shown in a very good argument by scott atran that um that that uh modern biological systematics classification taxonomy uh and ultimately our our view of um of of change and evolution and so on that that all this comes out of our Aristotle um his his uh natural natural history as i've shown in another book there is a fair amount of continuity between the um the biology that the the zoology specifically of flores islanders specifically the nage people um i have to be a bit specific and you know modern modern systematics that they're doing the same sort of thing i mean there are you know differences but nevertheless it's not as though um people like like the leo or the nage um you know classify and name animals in any old uh any old way um that they do it in ways that that fundamentally uh um fundamentally similar to uh to to uh modern systematics is a biological classification um so yeah all these anthropology which is my discipline you know writ large i uh for too long i think it's focused on the differences between people um i mean some of the uh some of the the commonalities have been taken taken for granted but but this there's still a lot to say about um you know how how remarkably uh similar we uh we are when it comes to the uh when it comes to the basics well that's one of the things i love about our senses our brains the way that we interact with the world uh they're all just yeah it's absolutely one of the things i love about the field of anthropology because like you said in early days there was a lot of attempts to separate people i've seen it a lot of attempts to separate people to categorize them sometimes in very dismissive you could even call it racist ways uh in ways that looked at different cultures the thing you have to always remember about even the worst part of the history of anthropology is when the results come in it actually has quite the opposite knowledge it turns out it weren't aren't all these disparate groups of races in the world no we all share a common ancestry that what goes back to africa you can i don't care if it's uh if it's a book club a cult of religion a nation a tribe whatever the culture is whatever their origin story is it's probably not correct and there's probably a mountain evidence in anthropology that can illuminate it so all the the the things that we it's like the world's fact-checker on history so no matter what narrative someone has tried to convince people of the anthropology can produce evidence that usually refutes the the desires of those narratives which is the thing i love about it refutes the desires very core truth to it yeah that that is very important in this world okay well that's that's that's very complimentary please to please to hear it please to hear your your view on that i think at the same time that that um we you know the general public that doesn't know as much about anthropology as it as it should you know including in the respects you uh you mentioned so i i mean my my life has been spent um writing um articles for for anthropological journals which yeah generally pretty pretty specific pretty specialized and they have to be in order to be accepted uh in those uh in those journals so this is my first uh first general book first trade book and i i i find i'm able to do things uh that that uh you know i i uh well certainly in a book you're able to say things that you wouldn't be able to say in the space of a short a short article so um oh there it is yeah and i love that picture it's it's the wrong it's it's the wrong um environment echo tone actually that's right at the western end this is the this is the territory of the komodo dragon as you can see it's pretty uh it's pretty dry um that the the trees you see uh a raid most beautifully are planted they're they're coconut trees but then you see the small islands off to uh off to the uh further to the west one of which is komodo i suppose the from which the dragon takes his name and i think you made a good choice and a beautiful uh scenery for a place to to do your research too and to do it yeah could have done much worse you could have done desert archaeology arctic archaeology there's all sorts of just terrible choice this is great yeah i know life is tough there though as i as i know increasingly as i've got older it um yeah it's a living can be pretty basic at times in that uh in that part of the world well thank you for telling your stories and sharing i mean i the the book with this the stories within it of of the island the people field work their adventures the the mystery itself trying to follow these these trails of language and culture to be able to tell a story you know some people may think it's controversial um others may just find it a fascinating new perspective on life on our planet well i i hope so yeah thank you very much thank you so much any final thoughts before we go um not really it usually happens i stopped these conversations then uh a half an hour later i realized that there was something brilliant i should have uh i should have said and it's probably in response to the brilliant question i forgot to ask oh right i know that's because that is always the way but no i i think we've covered uh quite a lot and given a sense of of uh you know the research the study of the book and uh so so thank you very much for your interest thank you so much for joining us and i do appreciate it everyone out there the book is between ape and human dr gregory fourth who has been joining us for this last hour to discuss and just remember if uh you want to see more of this podcast you can find us on wednesday night's eight p.m pacific time on our twitch youtube and facebook channels thank you so much for joining us for this episode and hey justin do you want to uh give us what if if we what if we what if wait uh oh if you learned for anything from today's show remember it's all in your head thank you everyone for joining us today