 We're back. We're back here. We're back. Yeah, I did it. No, I did it wrong. We have to practice our pointing Welcome back everybody to our little monthly thing that we do that we affectionately call fire and ice This is like Vine 12. I think yeah Yeah, next to me is Lauren Rosen my my pal from the West Coast Licensed practicing therapists specializing in anxiety and OCD and all that good stuff So Lawrence here to answer questions with us like she always is and we're going to chat for about 20 to 30 minutes Yay, and I already forgot which way to point. That's so good, right? Like literally am I whatever? Yes So this for anyone joining from my end is Drew Linsolata. He's amazing He's actually in graduate school, which we were just talking about to become a psychotherapist and The field will be very lucky to have him and he's also just a prolific writer and has lots of great insights on These topics so I always love our talks kind words So today you see is the title on the bottom of the screen here in our fancy graphics that we have thought urge or impulse This is I think sometimes we would think it's a basic Topic but it's important because I think a lot of people are super freaked out right now Even as we speak and as we record because they they can't separate. What's a thought? What's an urge? What's an impulse? Yeah Absolutely, I think there's that fear that like if I have a thought it will be kind It is also an urge or it will become an impulse, right or it's indicative of an impulse. Yeah, and it It's interesting. I didn't tell you this beforehand But one of the things that I do first with clients I have you know a little treatment manual and one of the things I first do is break down what a thought is what a feeling is and You know what an an urge is because because of this very fact so it may sound simple to people but it's actually It's not something that I take for granted because we don't really parse these things apart in our world That's a really good idea. Oh, thanks sometimes Because I think when people get into that worked-up state an anxious state a fearful state They you know what would they never gave a second thought now is super important Yeah, he's a part my emotions and my thoughts and my urges and my impulses and Right because otherwise and especially because we treat these things differently To especially with thoughts and feelings, right? Am I if I'm accepting the presence of a feeling? I'm not I'm not engaging with thoughts, but people often conflate the two people think Oh well in order to feel my sadness I have to really churn about this really sad thing that happened mentally like I have to think about it Which is not necessary or or turns out helpful Yeah, yeah, that's actually that's a good point because we are immersed in that forget outside the realm of anxiety disorders and OCD You know, you got to feel it to heal it Go inside dig deep like so we're conditioned almost to think that good mental health is Attach glue yourself to those thoughts and feelings and dig into them. Yes playing that meaning see what it's all a wallow like And that's the thing to like yes feel it to heal it, but feeling is actually a very simple process It's not all of the thinking that happens around Things that cause emotion. So that's pretty solid Turrets too much, but yeah, no I think it's germane to the topic because I think if you know feeling is when you say feeling is a simple process Let's say you're sad or whatever. You've just had a big breakup in a relationship. I I am hurting is Okay, you're feeling that I hurt as opposed to I'm hurting and I need to find meaning in the hurt Right, or I need to resolve the hurt. I need to fix it somehow like by figuring out why I'm hurt or and that There's like a compulsion in our culture to process cognitively think through and Yeah, mostly keeps us stuck especially those of us with anxiety disorders who like to think and think and think and think Wow, we just got big man. I completely have that layover on 3d I hope you wore your 3d glasses Interesting have you read chatter Ethan cross no, no, I haven't it's really good It's one of those books that you highlight on every single page. Yeah, I like the whole book Really good. He's a he's a cognitive science psychologist out of Columbia and he did a whole he's just dedicated his life to that Why do we think so much? Why are we always going inside inside inside that internal chatter? We all have all the time. Yep. Yeah, it's helpful. Sometimes it's neutral and sometimes it goes completely off the rails Yeah, and it is so functional. That's so important I am out. It sounds like that's what the book talks about is that there is a function to it that People people often are like, oh, well, I just I think all the time and I can't say but no like there there are reasons that you're probably trying to resolve or Yeah, oftentimes put things in a box and so that we can put them away. Yeah, tidy them up But this puts us right into today's topic Which is not understanding the difference between a thought, you know Or assuming that if you think something that it might it probably means you're having an urge about that thing And that urge might become an uncontrollable impulse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I guess my My question for you since I've pontificated a lot on the feeling thing and and obviously I have thoughts on all of this But I'm curious like what what do you think of as the like what what makes a thought a thought? Oh, not a hard question at all. Let's just get right into the easy one. Just a simple one. Just softballing to you A nice meatball. He can it out of the park Well, what makes a thought a thought That's a good question. Well, I guess I probably would say I'm gonna work this through on the fly here So don't judge. Yeah, don't ever. Yeah, don't at me I think everything is a thought right so any any image words whatever comes on your head. That's everything is a thought So we're gonna get a little mathematically everything is a thought but not everything isn't every every urge has every urge and impulse has a thought But not every thought has an urge or an impulse So pretty much everything that goes in our head is a thought I don't think we can that would be That making any sense. I'm completely no no no no no that no and I like sorry to because it is a big question I know but I think you're right. I think um There are all of these different mental events that we might call thoughts like images Or words that's oftentimes what I think about it. Usually they're pictures or they're sentences almost um And I don't know from an act perspective oftentimes, which is so much my you know my perspective on on all things working with within the therapeutic context um, mostly they're talking about words mostly they're talking about the narratives and the stories that pop into our minds and Those but to your point they can come with images they can um, and they can Also come with these other experiences like feelings and urges and impulses. So But I when I think of thoughts mostly I think of words Yeah, and you're right in the act acceptance of commitment therapy for those who don't understand that Yeah, that comes out of that whole relational frame theory, which that stuff will melt your brain. That's all like Still trying to get my brain around that but yeah Right, so it comes as words, but they can be accompanied by images sounds All kinds of sensory experiences can originate with thoughts Yep, and then is there an emotion that triggers a thought or is there a thought that triggers an emotion? Like that's been debated lately in my my community. I don't know which comes first Well, do you have to do you have to know what comes first? I think it depends on the situation, right? Sometimes you're feeling anxious and then all of a sudden you thought pops into your mind And then it has a stronger tether to it because you've already been feeling anxious and sometimes you'll have a thought and the thought itself will seem so Unnerving that you start to have feelings associated with it. I think Yeah, that's probably accurate Whereas other times if you weren't so agitated or sensitized at the moment that thought would not trigger emotions It wouldn't just come and go probably. Yeah. Yeah Yeah What are you saying? Sorry. I told you this is so nuanced. It's so It's so this is not black and white. This is so hard to define these things It's so true but I think the practicality of it is in people trying to Identify what in the world is going on with their experience, right? Because I know I know whenever I'm on here I tend to get so esoteric that I'm I'm not sure that it's super helpful all the time But I think there is a real practicality that to this because if you see Oh, look, there's this narrative going on in my mind where I'm having this strong emotional experience That identifying these different things really sets us up to navigate them skillfully Yeah, as opposed to an inact experiential avoidance, right? You're trying to avoid those those emotional experiences So I don't want to have a strong thought because then I might have an emotional experience which I must avoid Yeah, right So interestingly we start to try to analyze is this a thought is it an urge? Is it a feeling? What does it mean? What does it mean in an effort to avoid that experience and we literally create the experience by Trying to analyze it and make it so that we know for sure what's going on Yes, yeah, and I think that yeah creating anxiety and tension and all of that through that process of trying to pin it all down is for sure Well, and that's I think what we were talking about Before we started recording today Was the idea that sometimes so well should we go to mary and webster our friends? But you know, actually, I don't even think it's it's oxford. It's Mary Good old oxford They know what they're talking about as a straw an urge is a strong desire or impulse and We can all relate to the idea of having the urge to do something like I Well, I haven't had a cigarette in over a decade, right? But like every once in a while, it's like like I would really like to smoke right now, right and So that impulse that desire that want sort of springing forth at random I would call that an urge, but what we were talking about is that sometimes people worry About thoughts being urges or being indicative of urges yeah, and Yeah, it's tricky, but they are they are different things and just because you have a thought Doesn't mean that you're necessarily Wanting to do something Or that you will do something Is there that I like your smoking example. That's really good You know, so it's been a long 10 years since you had a cigarette But every once in a while and I've heard people say that every once in a while like after a meal or you're at socially Whatever like oh, I'm really like a cigarette right now. Yeah. Is that an urge? Yeah, it's probably an urge But I would think can we attach like a positive? What's the word I'm looking for not necessarily reward But a positive outcome to an urge Now you might understand that there is a negative. There's a larger negative outcome I don't want to start smoking you know, it's not good for him But in this moment, I would get pleasure and a reward out of a cigarette right now Yes, it's kind of like the urge to do a compulsion In the context of OCD it's like right now It might feel relieving to do this compulsion in the very same way that it might feel Immediately gratifying to pick up a cigarette and light it to your point I would be really bummed. Do I did that on a lot of levels? So I it's not good for my health and I would Feel frustrated and the way that that had happened, but yeah Yeah, I get that. Yeah. Yeah a little abstinence violation effect for you. All right. Like I'd feel like, ah Damn it. Yeah, not that I advocate for that though. Um, it's obviously we all but yeah So then if it's a positive let's start like because I know everybody's worried about like I'll have a thought It's an urge and then it'll turn into an impulse and I'll do the thing that I don't want to do Like I'll turn the wheel and drive off the bridge. I'll hurt my dog I'll say something. I'll scream curses in church. Whatever they're worried is going to be the thing Okay, so if the urge is generally Generally associated with a positive outcome in the moment stress reduction relief tension relief a positive feeling Whatever it happens to be the cigarette would be fun in that moment. Okay. Yes The ice cream cone would be great in that moment and then I would be angry about it because I'm trying to lose weight Whatever it is or I have a stomach ache Yeah, I have a stomach ache or whatever it is. I have you know, wrinkles in my beard. It's not good. So I think If it's a positive there's a positive outcome associated with that maybe there and I'm I'm completely making this up as I go along by the way, this is not science science here, but It's if there's a positive outcome associated that maybe it's more likely that the urge gives rise to an impulse That pizza looks really good Like I really because there's a positive outcome the pizza tastes good right like Right, there's an outcome that I want. There is an outcome that I genuinely would enjoy experiencing Yes, I really like, you know rush RIP Neil part So I'm gonna buy those tickets I don't have the money but I'm gonna buy them anyway because it's I really like they're my favorite band Whatever it is, right, right whether or not you have the money. Yeah, exactly Exactly, then it becomes an impulse that you wrestle to control a little bit Which you know, we all have that in some measure. We're not entirely self-disciplined all the time No, but let's look it on our head. Now. It's something that you do not want You absolutely do not want you do not want to punch my grandma in the nose I don't want to sleep with my teacher, but I'm having this thought anyway That's not going to become an urge because it's there's no positive outcome there You're worried about it Correct Right, it's more that the thought is there that what if this becomes an urge And or yeah, what if this is indicative or I had that thought while I was like clenching my fist That must mean that I really do want to punch my grandma in the nose Which is here's a tricky one I think The fact of the matter is sometimes depending on who your grandma is You may very well want to punch her in the nose, right? Like there are some obnoxious grammar I loved both of my grandmothers, you know Hope of that both of them are resting in peace I didn't actually want to punch them although I've you know I've been known to want to punch a person or two in my mind and that would be enjoyable in theory In the short term, you know, but I think It can be hard. I see there's a lot of no cd with harm thoughts, right Have you really frustrated with somebody and then you have a harm thought that it's like well, do I Is that an urge? Yeah, I see I could see where the emotional context might make it feel more urge like Urgesk if you will oh, but I'm angry that mean and I thought that at the same time. Uh-oh must mean Yeah, which I do it. Yeah Yeah, I get that that makes sense. Um, it was interesting because when I had Marty Sief on the on the podcast We're just going back two years. He was so aggressively adamant that Thoughts do not become uncontrollable urges, you know, like and he's literally built his entire professional life on that but You know, so that was nice to hear but I and I have to wonder like Is it because isn't something you don't want you you're freaked out by the idea that you might actually want to punch your grandma Of course I'm freaked out by it. So if you're freaked out by it, that's a really good indicator That it's it's not an urge and it's not going to become an uncontrollable impulse Yes And at the same token the thing that we have to be very careful about is how often you're revisiting that information When these feelings come up because as we've talked about so often the first time that we go over it It's educational and it's important to understand that no 100 of the time We don't see that thoughts equate to urges And yet it can quickly devolve into trying to reassure yourself that this thought and this this This sensory experience that you're having that you're calling an urge isn't a genuine urge And if we're still we're constantly trying to convince ourselves that's like no, I don't really want that Then we may lose the thread pretty quickly. Yeah, you're probably right and then you wind up in that situation I had to write about it last week that the old backdoor spike now I'm not I'm not anxious enough about it anymore. So that must mean it is an urge now. Damn it. Yeah Now it's not making me anxious anymore. Now. I now I guess I really want to do it now. It must be right exactly um but I think the the whole idea of and So if we're talking about thoughts more generally Within the context again of acceptance and commitment therapy and mindfulness part of the problem is that we're Just giving them all too much importance whether they're true false right wrong Doesn't matter so much is the fact that they themselves are thoughts and we still They don't mean anything in and of themselves And I think the same is true of urges just because we have an urge like I've had so many urges That are genuine urges like the urge to smoke a cigarette that I haven't acted on Right, so I think that there's also this component of people think oh Well, if it's a real urge then it's gonna happen. It's like well, you do get some say on that I think Yeah, and we I my gut tells me that we all deal with that on a micro level all day long Should I do should I not you know, we're making those little tiny decisions. We don't even think about them Yeah, we resist tiny little urges all the time without even knowing that we're doing it most likely Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean Much rather just sit with my feet up and watch Netflix, but I have to I have to do this Yes, I resisted an urge. I didn't even give it any credit, but I did I resisted an urge So yeah, and sometimes we don't right like not to freak people out But I find myself doing this even at like at the end of a long day And I've got like maybe a note or two to finish up for within my work as a therapist That I'll notice I'll be on another website, right all of a sudden I come off of my note And I'm like searching something that was on my mind and I'm like, whoa, that was quick Like I got off track pretty readily. So I it's not to say right like sometimes we we I think we have to to bear in mind that Sometimes we do things without thinking which is probably very triggering to a lot of people watching this but Um, but that also does and we have to accept uncertainty. We have to accept that we don't know whether or not we'll snap Snap and lose our minds and do something that we don't intend to do like punch your grandmother in the nose for grandma But She really didn't she didn't she does not deserve to be punched in the nose But we have to accept the possibility that that might happen um While understanding that Just because something is present doesn't like a thought or this sort of physiological sensation that we're calling an urge Doesn't mean that it's actually going to happen necessarily just because it's there Possibility probability thing like just exactly doesn't make it probable and the the existence of a thought about it Doesn't make it any more probable Right, right. It just doesn't change the math at all. Yes. Yeah But we're so enamored of our mental experiences, aren't we? We think that they're so much more important generally than they are It is fact I could I could spend the rest of my life literally researching this it amazes me How important my my thoughts how no matter how ridiculous they are They are so much more important than yours. Yeah, so much more like I you know I couldn't dismiss your thoughts. You could call me a moron without even thinking about it Yeah, can't do it to yourself. Why do we have that, you know, yeah Well, and I think that part of that is because they do generally come with some sort of emotional charge True your thoughts don't come with any emotional stakes for me. No, my thoughts don't come with any for you So I get that. Yeah. Yeah. So is it a you know in the end and we always I think we're really good at this. We bring the conversation back to the the answer that no one wants It's all who knows it's all it's none It doesn't matter like In the end the bottom line in this discussion is it kind of doesn't matter trying to pin it down to be sure It's not an urge or an impulse Is worse than if it was an actual impulse. That's the problem. Yes Yeah, yeah, so Yeah, it's completely down to that. It's like well, and I think the the recovery side of things is to say Maybe I do Maybe I do have the urge to punch grandma or to hurt my dog or to To to swerve my car off of this ramp and that's Unnerving but I don't have the answer to that I can't like if I know that if I try and go down the rabbit hole and pin it down I'm just going to be like throwing pins for the rest of my life Yeah, trying desperately to pin down a thing that cannot be pinned down. You cannot gain certainty on that ever It's like trying to prove something isn't true. You know, you can't prove a negative Yeah, you can't prove that you won't do a thing that's or won't feel a thing or won't think that you can't prove that It's impossible Yeah, I think that this is where our education in like the scientific method is really helpful because Recognizing that we can't actually prove a hypothesis or disprove a hypothesis or no Going back right can't Oh my gosh, there's so many negatives Okay, you can't prove a negative Right, but you can also can't prove that something is true We keep theories we say like, okay I don't think it's likely that I'm going to punch my grandma on the face So I'm just going to go with that until there's counter there's evidence counter to that and then this thought comes up And I'm like, well, uh, is that evidence of four against and looking at how thoughts work? Well, no, it's not it's not Compelling evidence. Anyway, it could mean something it could not mean something but it's nothing that I Can hang my hat on so to speak so I have yet to To make any sort of forward movement with that theory And so we're just going to leave the theory at it as it is that probably won't but we'll see Which of course we always have to acknowledge feels incredibly reckless and irresponsible and dangerous and like How can I just let it be because then it feels so much like I I can't just leave that be Well, go ahead and don't leave it. I don't know what to tell you But I always wind up getting in that situation where it's like I'm not trying to minimize it But then don't leave it be go ahead wrestle with it. Tell me what it's actually stopping you from punching your grandma Of course, it's not no, but I think sometimes we'll do you have to do it in order to prove to them or to understand better That there's no resolution I know that I had to do that for years and years before I finally gave up the ghost and said look there's no amount of ruminating that's going to stop the the thing that I don't want to happen from happening or Help me to absolutely figure this out. It just doesn't exist so I can either Stop living my life and really keep trying or stop and live my life and live with the uncertainty, but you're absolutely right There's no that it's important to recognize. It is very very scary um But that's where When we're going back to what we were talking about at the beginning with the thoughts and the feelings and the urges and all of these different experiences that When we recognize that it feels scary That we can open toward that we can be with the feeling not the thoughts not the thinking about the thoughts or the urges But the emotional experience. Oh my my heart is pounding like I feel it Very definitively beat by beat pounding in my chest. I feel lump in my throat. I feel a tightness in my jaw Can I breathe in as though I could make space for those physiological sensations as I'm as I'm with them And that's what it is to feel a feeling not Thinking about whether or not you're going to punch your grandma in the face But recognizing that it's very uncomfortable to not know whether or not you're going to punch your grandma in the face And then to be with all of those physical experiences and then to reorient toward your life Yeah And in that moment I can be with that experience as opposed to trying to avoid it Which is one of those principles of acts like I So I'm having an experience right now and I'm going to do everything I can to stop having it Right and I think when you say like, you know, what are you feeling right now? It's not what are you thinking? What are you feeling? Well right now? I am really afraid that I'm going to pick up a knife and do something terrible with it That's a statement. I feel afraid right right now Right, I don't have to use that feeling to try to predict what I'm going to do in five seconds five minutes or five days Yes, that's that's pointless Right, and I I think even as you're taught you're like I feel afraid that I'm going to pick up that knife That witnessing in that that if we pull back even for there, it's just fear right. I'm afraid I'm afraid. Yeah. Yeah, and I can be afraid. I can be afraid in this moment. I can have this experience I'm okay. I'm flexible enough for that. Yes. I get lots and lots of space for my fear until it naturally passes And is replaced by something else like annoyance anger happiness Uh neutrality neutrality Yeah, sure. Sure. I get it Um, and you know, you always find it interesting that the very same thoughts that were absolutely terrible these conversations itself Would have been impossible for me to have That meta like almost existential Let's think about our thoughts and what thinking really means Could never have had that I would have been an absolute dumpster fire for days Yes But now I actually relish having the conversation same exact thoughts different experience that comes with Now, how could that be so that tells you something too? I think absolutely Oh, that's such a good point that it's like your your experience around But it's your experience around the feeling that's changing too Right. Is that you're like, oh, yeah, there's that unnerving thing again Now I have that now you have that and instead of immediately going like make it go away. It's like, oh It's it's arrived. There it is. There's the it's sort of like Uh uneasy like the movement and my stomach and the lift and the the whole cascade of things that happens Yeah, sometimes it's not fun. It's just not No, but we're curious about it. Then it's it no longer has to be about fun or not fun It's just an experience. It just is right. It's another you'll have thousands of experiences every day emotional intellectual physical Just let them all happen. Yes Yeah, yeah, there's a beautiful real quick quote to that and let everything happen to you beauty and terror Just keep going. No feeling is final Oh We just I'm going to hit the end button now because we ain't going to get any better than that That was perfect because that's a great great great quote. Where does that come from? It's uh, Rainier Marie Wilka, uh letters to the young poet And I actually I think I heard I read that quote for the first time at the end of the film Not in glorious bastards. It's another film about world war two Um, oh What is it called? Georgia rabbit There it is. Oh, okay Yeah, I don't know if you watch that film, but it's uh, yeah Yeah, very very moving film. Yeah. Yeah All right guys. Well, how's that for not answering with any sort of certainty? We're never gonna you know, and I hate to say it but we're always going to disappoint you You're gonna come I know you make you feel better and certain and we never do But hopefully we help you navigate through that uncertainty. Yes, and maybe we make you help you feel better about feeling Discomfort in the uncertainty because you know at least seeing that the two of us have managed to do it somehow some way And it's not a problem. I think too many people don't I understand why I used to interpret it that way too No, no, no, if I feel bad then it must there must be something I could do about that That that means there's some other step. I'm missing right now It's the feeling bad that teaches you how to have the feeling bad experience. It's okay. It's part of the process Yeah, yeah, you can do it. Yeah, you can for sure We're cooking guys. I think we're done. I will put up my usual on the screen here So if you're not following lauren you should on instagram at the obsessive mind or go to the obsessive mind dot com, right? Yes, all of your stuff is certainly there. No problem. Yeah Tell us again where you practice though. What states can you practice in? I practice in california and nevada and florida and utah And I think fingers crossed soon to be oregon So where i'm waiting i'm waiting on the oregon board. So How do you have time to record with me? You must just be taking exams all the time It would seem that way a lot of a lot of life insured through reciprocity at this point in my career, but um, you know people move and I always am like Oh, I don't want to have to like it's a lot to go through having a new Therapist and all of that when you have an established a little relationship one with one rather Oh fingers crossed for oregon. Let's see what happens. So yeah, and uh, and if drew you wouldn't mind throwing up here Go over to the instagram at the dot anxious dot truth. No, it's the wrong. There we go. Um, and Also the anxious truth.com and and check out drew's podcast. It's awesome and his books. He's got great stuff Yeah, have you been on the podcast? I don't know if you have one one once I think yeah I can't remember. Yeah. Well, hey You know, I'm always going to come hang out and chat with you. I'm just sitting here waiting to hear from the oregon licensing board That's right If you're listening, thank you so much for Looking over my application All right guys, thanks for coming. We'll see you again next month. Yeah, as always Bye