 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to this open forum. As I can see from the packed room, this is probably the most eagerly awaited discussion. My name is Shorab Khakda. I'm the editor-in-chief of the Jakarta Globe, which is an English language newspaper in Indonesia. As most of you may know or may not know, Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation on earth. It has 240 million people, 90% of whom are Muslims. But constitutionally, it is a multi-faith society. The Constitution protects the rights of all minorities. But as in a democracy, there are many factors at play. And I think if you've been following the news recently, there have been the rise of what I would call the radical right Muslim faction within society. They have a space. They are able to voice their beliefs and their feelings. But the majority of Indonesians, I would say, are mostly tolerant Muslims. And I think that leads into today's discussion. As the topic is religion outdated in the 21st century. And maybe I can start by relating a story that was told to me over dinner the other day by a very noted author, Mr. Paolo Kulho. And the story goes like this. Since you're in Switzerland, I'll use the Swiss background. There's a small village in the heart of the country. And in this village, the population is divided 50-50. 50 believes in God and 50 does not believe in God. And every day they are fighting. So one day the mayor says, okay, let's put this to rest. I'm going to invite the whole village on a Sunday to a discussion. And we'll discuss all day long if it takes to see whether, welcome, welcome. We're just getting started. We'll discuss whether or not there's God. And at the end of the day after the discussion, we'll come to a, hopefully we'll come to a conclusion. So to help the discussion, the mayor invited a very prominent priest to debate on behalf of God. And he invited a scientist to debate on behalf of the atheist. And so they debated all day. And to and fro, to and fro, at the end of the day, they still hadn't come to a conclusion. So the mayor says, okay, I'll tell you what, we'll all go home, we'll take a rest, and maybe we'll come back. So everybody went home. The father went home and, I'm sorry, the atheist went home and decided to kneel and pray. And he says, I now believe there's a God, because nobody could convince me that there was no God. The father went home and decided to burn everything that was religious in his house, because he says, I could not, I could not convince the atheist to believe that there is a God. So on that note, let me please introduce my very distinguished panel. We have a panel which has, which is, I think, comes from very, very broad backgrounds. And I think we'll have a very lively discussion, because I think while everybody out there in the Congress is debating about, you know, worldly affairs, I think the real issue, it will be debated in this hall today as to whether or not religion still matters. So let me, let me start with my left. To my furthest left is Father Christopher Jameson. He's the director of National Office from the United Kingdom. Father Jameson has been a prolific author, I think, and I think we'll wait to hear from him. Next to him is a scientist, Dr. Lawrence Cross, who's a professor and director of the Origins Project from Arizona University. As a scientist, of course, I'm sure he will give us the scientific view of religion and whether or not there is a God. On my immediate left is a young entrepreneur, Ms. Narkees Alon, who hails from Israel. She's co-founder of ZZ, and she's a global shaper at the WEF. On my immediate right is Ms. Carol Keahan. She's president and chief executive officer of the Catholic Health Association in the USA, and she is very involved in health care. And I think she will bring in a perspective of how religion plays a role in the healing process. On her right is Rabbi Pinkhus Goldsmith. I hope I got that right. He's the chief Rabbi and president of the Conference of European Rabbis and the Russian Federation. And of course, from him, I would hope to hear a view on how religion plays a role in Israel today, especially within the Middle... And maybe we can expand it to the Brother Middle East. And on his right is... How do I address you? Mr. Sulak Sivarkasa. He is the founder, director of the Satyarkoses Nagaprodipa Foundation in Thailand. He has been twice nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. He's a monk. He's an activist. And I've been just told that he's also a very disruptive patriarch. So the way we will conduct this is that I will give my panelists three minutes to state their case. And then we'll have a round of questions three minutes each. Three minutes each to state their case. And then we'll have a round of questions. I will use my prerogative to ask the first question. And then I will open it to the floor. And hopefully we will have a very interesting discussion. So maybe Father Christopher, the floor is yours. Thank you. I should also add I'm a Benedictine monk, but it's a bit chilly wearing a habit in the Alps. So is religion outdated in the 21st century? At one level, the question answers itself. There are four billion religious people in the world. So at one level, of course, religion is not out of date because there are still so many religious active in the world. So presumably the question is asking, has the great developments in science and reason that came from the 18th century in Europe, has that European enlightenment developed in such a way that the beliefs of religion are now going to fade away and disappear? So what I'd like to simply offer you is a mental picture that may help the whole discussion. Imagine a circle in which you write the word mystery. And around it are a series of arrows trying to penetrate the mystery. And one arrow will say physics. Another will say biology. Another will say psychology. And another will say theology. And that we are together trying to understand the mystery of life. Now this goes wrong when one person, as used to be the case historically, when one person puts their science, their ology in the middle. It used to be theology. But I would say the danger is that if we put another ology there, whether it's biology or physics or whatever in the middle, we will end up with a similar problem. And at the personal level to conclude these opening comments at the personal level, I think the biggest personal mystery that we all have is what kind of a person do I really want to be? We no longer inherit identities in the world. People are individuals much more now. And they have great demands in answering the question, what kind of a person do I really want to be? And I believe that alongside science and psychology, the great religious traditions of the world have a lot of wisdom to offer people as each of us seeks to answer the question, what kind of a person do I really want to be? Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Cross. Okay, well, of course religion is outdated in the 21st century. Most religious people, to respond, it's true that you may get many people saying they're religious, but none of them, in the first world at least, in the developed world, to first approximation, actually believe the doctrines of their faith. They like to be religious. They want to believe, to use something from the X files. They want to believe in believing, so that Catholics don't really believe that when a priest holds a wafer, it turns into the body of Christ. No one really believes that nonsense. I have in the last week spent more time talking to Jewish atheists than I can count. Most of the Jews I know are atheists, and they say it's perfectly reasonable to be Jewish atheists, because there's other aspects of the Jewish religion they like. So the point is that the doctrines of religion are outdated, and that's for good reason. They were created by Bronze Age, or Iron Age peasants, who didn't even know the earth orbited the sun. So the wisdom in those books is not wisdom at all. And people take the wisdom. In fact, we've actually learned something over the last 20 centuries, and science has taught us how the world works. Now, for science, the interesting thing as a scientist is that God is completely irrelevant. Most scientists don't spend enough time thinking about God to even know if they're atheists, because they try and understand how the world works, and God never enters into it. It's just completely irrelevant. And in fact, the more we've learned about the natural world, the more we've learned that you don't need any divine intervention to explain anything. As far as morality is concerned, and the person you want to be, which is really what I think is the part of what religion provides many things for people, and we can't deny that. The question is, how can we take the things that people need, community, support, hope, and use the real world to build those quantities? Because if you base your beliefs and your actions on myths that are incorrect, you're inevitably going to take irrational actions. And so what we want to do is what science does, which is force people's beliefs to conform to the evidence of reality rather than the other way around, and not assume the answers to questions before we even ask them, and use the rational world to build a global society, not an exclusionary society, but a global world where people can live together based on the reality that we're all humans sharing this planet, and we need to work together to build a better place. A morality based on rationality and not outmoded religious beliefs. Thank you. Narciss. Hi. So first of all, I'm very excited to talk about religion, a very basic theme in humanity, and especially that I come from Israel, and I'm Jewish. And in Israel, we are living in a multi faith society. We have many religions, Jewish people, Muslims, Christians, Bedouins, Jews, more. So obviously that creates a lot of conflict. It's challenging. And we have some projects to deal with this conflict, even our president, Shimon Peres, is creating gatherings between young people so they can understand each other. And but I guess many of you know about conflicts and stuff like that. So if someone wants, I can send him links afterwards. But I want to present a different perspective. I want to present perspective that I experienced as a young person that grew up in Israel and traveled a lot in the world and met a lot of young people. So first of all, many of the young people I met, we feel that we have a lot in common, that something the internet provided us. We have some shared values and shared narrative. Young people from the Middle East, from all over the world, a lot of people, a lot of things also I see it in the global shapers. But even when I'm just traveling, we see things the same. Cross religions. But I can't say that mean religion is outdated. For me, religion is our connection to something higher. It's like the meaning of life. What is this life? I don't know. If someone in this audience know, that's nice. Scientists something sometimes they think they know. That's nice. For me, of course, my father is a scientist. I have a lot of respect for science. But for me, it's just a very powerful religion. It's another way to explain reality. But neither science or anything else can really give us the answers for our essence questions about this life. What are we doing here? What is this meaning? And I think as a young person, I'm still working with these questions. And I refer to religion many times because I found some answers there in these sources. So I can use the Bible, but I'm sure in all the books, we have the same values and like answers for these questions. And even now, when I'm talking with people here in Davos and a few conversations, for example, yesterday I was sitting with a friend from Argentina and we were talking about entrepreneurship because we are both entrepreneurs. And then he said, yeah, so it's like in Genesis. It's a process of creation. And he started quoting things from the Bible and he obviously didn't grew up on the Bible. So I think for young people that are non-religion officially, many of us use these sources for our growth and for finding answers to the biggest questions we have in this world. And so I think it's beautiful. Thank you. Carol. Good afternoon. I'm Sister Carol Kehan. I'm a Catholic sister. I'm a member of, excuse me, the daughters of charity of St. Vincent de Paul. I am a Catholic who believes in the Eucharist profoundly. Do I understand? No. But then again, I believe in a lot of things that I see in this world that I don't understand. If you ask me to explain the cosmos, you're lost. But I do believe in the cosmos. So I do think that there are many people who believe profoundly. I have spent my entire life in health care. The community that I belong to was founded in Paris in the 1600s and has to this day had as its focus a particular concern for the poor, whether they were the orphan or the uneducated and impoverished or those who need health care. And so that is my world view. My world view is the God that made me, made each and every other person with the same dignity and the same rights. And that in any way that that dignity is not respected and supported, I need to do my best to step in and help that. And to do that because of my profound belief in the gospels where Jesus Christ says, whatever you do to the least, and it's not just the poorest tiny baby. It's the irritating person. It's the person that overuses services. It's an ungrateful person. Whatever you do to the least, you do to me. When you believe that, it is compelling. If you don't believe it, you need to find another sort of life philosophy. I think there's a lot to be said about thinking about the kind of person that you want to be. But I also believe that there's a great deal of courage given and a great deal of inspiration given. When you believe that there is a person out there that you are called to be, that there is an almighty God that calls you to be something, someone, and it will be the very best you can be. And that's, someone only does that when they love you. And it creates a profound sense of comfort. I realize that that can be ridiculed just as my belief in the Eucharist can be, my belief in the Gospels. But it is a profound conviction of mine. And I see what it means in the lives of young people, middle-aged people, and old people who look at others in that same view, look at others as people of equal dignity. It puts profound responsibilities on your behavior. So I'll stop there. Thank you very much. Rabbi? First of all, greetings in German. This was hello in Swiss German. I am Swiss-born and have been in Russia for the last 25 years as Chief Rabbi of Moscow and a year and a half ago was elected to become the President of the Conference of European Rabbis. I understand I have only three minutes. Swiss make wonderful watches, but the Russians have time. Talking about religion, organized religion, I always remember when I invited a fellow believer due to come to synagogue and says, I'm against organized religion. So I told him, you know, you can come without any promise with we're so disorganized. I believe that religion is more relevant than ever. I think every time one of you enters an airport and wants to go into an airplane, has to take off his shoes. It reminds you that religion is relevant. And I would also like to remind our atheists, brothers, that last century, the secular century, the 20th century, was the bloodiest century of all, with communism, with Stalinism and Nazism, almost destroying the world. This century started on a religious note. Religion is becoming again very important. Europe in the last few years, two or three years, has in France, in Switzerland, Holland, Germany, attempts to accept laws, to pass laws against religion, against the Minerates, against Borca, against circumcision, against kosher and halal meat. If religion would be unimportant, there would be no attempt to pass such laws. It is a clash between a postmodern Europe, a secular Europe, and a new wave of immigration, who are much more religious. Now, the famous historian, Neil Ferguson, in his last book, Civilizations, discusses why are churches in Europe much emptier than in the United States. His theory, I don't know if he's right or not, maybe you can tell me, is that in the United States, you have a lot of competition. Here in Europe, in every country, almost you have a state religion. It is his theory that what made Europe great during the last 500 years was the civilization of competition. So, I would like to close with you know, with another Jewish anecdote that once a rabbi appears in heaven after he dies and he's shown very small quarters in Eden and a few minutes later a bus driver comes and he's given a great villa in the Garden of Eden and the rabbi says, I was religious all my life and God tells him, listen, when you are giving your sermon, everybody was sleeping. When the bus driver was driving, everybody was praying. So, what I would like to tell to my friend Lawrence, the scientist, he can say whatever he wants, but he's the bus driver and by him discovering the universe, he is going to bring people closer to God and closer to understanding God and his creation. Thank you very much. I think we definitely have the makings of a great discussion. Father Sulak, you attend. I cannot speak generally for all religions, whether they are outdated in the 21st century. I could only mention Buddhism as I understand it. Indeed, my latest book entitled The Wisdom of Sustainability, Buddhist Economics for the 21st century. I think the top economists here need to read this book because the because the mainstream economics is going to the dog. You need to have something alternatively. To have Buddhist economics may be a help. Buddhism is more a set of tools for waking up to our original nature than it is a system of beliefs. For this reason, adherents to other religious traditions appreciate many of its tools. Our process of spiritual awakening becomes personal as we formulate our own process and practice within the Buddhist framework or after translation into the language of other faith traditions. What follow is my own formulation of process and practices of mindfulness within my own Buddhist tradition. Buddhism offers useful resources for us to reinvent our thought processes and transform greed, hatred and delusion into generosity, compassion and wisdom, the root cause of evil. Buddhists would argue that greed, hatred and delusion could be eradicated if we only educate ourselves properly in morality, mindfulness and wisdom. Indeed, we need to reinterpret the fundamental teaching of the Buddha appropriate for the modern world too. We must practice outside meditation hall in places such as refugee camps or outside military bases or even in the shopping centers so that we can show the seeds of peace and critical self-awareness cultivated within ourselves and engage with the world through nonviolent social action. However much we have achieved with more proper understanding of the world and ourselves, we should always take good care of our hearts in order to overcome greed, hatred and delusion in the wider society. I feel that Buddhist leaders in general and indeed religious leaders in general should raise their voices more often in speaking the truth to power which is often corrupted so that we could use our words of wisdom and compassion to transform society in meaningful ways. Speaking truth to power need not always be confrontational we should also cultivate dialogue with the powers that be. I myself used to belong to the world faith and develop dialogue which met regularly when the president of the world bank at that time and other leading personality in mainstream economic development. Through dialogues we have learned to respect one another and have tried to send from our views to be more holistic and really listening to voices of the poor. And lastly if Buddhists want to be appropriate for the present and the future they must understand structural violence because social structure indeed is full of violence helping the rich and they're not helping either and oppressed the poor and entirely destroying the environment. Thank you. Thank you very much. We will now start around the questions and I will ask a question of each of the panelists and then I will throw open to the floor to invite questions. Maybe I will start with the father Christopher. You've written a lot about happiness and how religion brings about happiness I assume but what does it really mean? Does a belief system drive your value system? You asked me what happiness means. What happiness means. Because everybody nowadays says well I just want everyone to be happy I used to be a teacher of a school and the parents would all say oh father I just want my children to be happy and actually it's really we need to ask what do we mean by happy because happiness has a history. There is a history to the meaning of the word happiness and what it's come to mean nowadays is feeling good and this means that the entire world is unhappy about 10 seconds after waking up if you think about it especially if you're a teenager and you know by the way why teenagers don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus it's because it took place in the early morning and they don't believe the early morning exists and the happiness I think could mean doing good and contemplating the good I'd say those two things to replace rather than just the contemporary consumer feeling good it's doing good and contemplating the good which is where Christianity was strongly overlapped with what Sulak just said about Buddhism and what I would say is though that the difficulty is that the self-discipline required to contemplate the good and to do good is what our society finds very hard to acquire and I think at its best religion provides us with the means of doing that. Thank you very much. This is building up on that Narkis you're the youngest on the panel and I guess the closest to being about a teenager so you might have an insight you might have an insight into this feeling happy and just taking out from that you're an entrepreneur but you're also obviously a very a de-believer in religion how do you match the two? So first of all I really agree with what Christopher said about happiness and I just think that the most important thing in our life is that we know to live them the art of living so this is some people call it spirituality but other people are intimidated when they hear spirituality because it sounds like New Agey and stuff but I think all of us are connected to it I'm in social entrepreneurship now and in social entrepreneurship what you want to do you look on problems in society and then you think about innovative ways to solve them and usually you want to make it sustainable and actually I think the biggest problem in society is that people don't like their life and I feel that all of the things that we see in society are symptoms of that all the wars all the arguments all the things are just that and if we notice on ourselves like in days that we feel good about ourselves so we're just not we're not having a fight we see it in our closest relationships and also in business so a few days ago I thought we should have spiritual entrepreneurship like creating companies that create a spiritual value and then I started testing it in Davos and some people ask me because in Davos you're doing like you meet I don't know 100 people a day and I'm like so what do you do what do you do so I started answering I'm a spiritual entrepreneur so some people looked at me like okay why is she here and stuff but actually a really some amazing things happened to me with a few very serious people like yesterday I met a very successful serious person and he's like I can't believe you're saying it and then he took off a page from from his bag and he showed me that he drew a triangle of business entrepreneurship social entrepreneurship and spiritual entrepreneurship and he's an achieved man in in this world so it's really cool and also Christopher and I had a talk that he presented a project he wants to do and you say okay so what how do you would you suggest me to do it as an entrepreneur so I immediately said okay you should what's the business model who are the partners and stuff so I'm working with that and I would like to finish with a quote and about what you said because when you talked about feeling good I thought about this quote and I'm gonna do it while I'm singing because it's spiritual so we are open-minded okay and so we're minding this song it's a new life it's a new day it's a new dawn for me and I'm feeling good thank you wow I hope we're all feeling better this morning that's the purpose I think keeping good to this team about feeling good I'm gonna move to Carol now I think probably you have one of the toughest jobs anyone can have is to heal people you especially people who may be suffering I think critical illnesses how important in your experience you know how important do you think religion is to the healing process I have a bias on that naturally and so I would say to you that I think that it is you don't have to be religious at all to be involved in the healing process until I won't say that it is essential because you can give a vaccine without having any belief in God or any belief in a higher power or any thought of being religious but I would say to you that the care of the sick while many people will step back and say you know I just couldn't do it it's so hard just as you just heard for many many people it is the most fulfilling thing they could ever want to do and it is because of what they see I can remember a nurse saying to me when I was running a hospital I came to this hospital for the money I have stayed at this hospital for the mission and and so it does make a difference it makes a difference when you think you I just can't face another person with that serious an illness or I can't I cannot be supportive again or I am tired I don't feel good today but these patients need me their families need me I remember once when I was running a children's hospital and my the staff there did a magnificent job with children who were dying and with their parents and this nurse came to me and she said sister I care too much I cannot take care of another dying child and I said okay Liz I'll get somebody to take care of them that doesn't care at all no no no don't ever do that and you know and I said that is why you are so valuable to this child and and his parents and and you do pay a price but in the end it enlarges your heart even more and so quite honestly I think when you have a sense of the dignity and worth of each person and the importance of protecting that you find even in your toughest days when you don't feel good when you've had a fight at home when you know your back is hurting and you're worried about your children and what they're doing in school even in those days when you have a view of the sick as people of great dignity and and and your role as someone who who has the great honor to be able to assist them it makes all the difference in the world than if this is another drug addict or this is another oh another cancer or you know same old same old it makes all the difference in the world and so I would say not only to what the patient receives from you but what you receive from the patient and and so it's it it is a it is a great help both to the caregiver and the and and the patient when there is a spirituality of healing involved and we are at our most vulnerable when we're sick so anything that helps is really important thank you so it really flows two ways let me move on to the rabbi you know and I'm going to address a question to you about the general conditions in Israel today Israel is a multi-phase society but at the same time it try it identifies itself as a Jewish nation how does religion play in the daily lives of Israelis there's the famous saying that you know two Jews and three opinions and four parties they say in the Jewish world in the rabbinical world that wearing or not wearing yarmulke in Israel or which color or which size is not a religious statement it is a political statement which was unfortunately true for many years looking back at the elections of a week ago when of the 120 members of the parliament of which I believe 105 are of the Jewish faith over 40 are today officially practicing religious Jews meaning they're not going to answer a phone on Shabbat they're never going to eat not kosher food and they're never going to sit in a car on a train on a plane during the Jewish Sabbath or festivals and what is most interesting about this thing is let's go back 65 years 1948 when the state of Israel is created by a socialist left-wing coalition David Ben-Goyan in the new Israeli parliament in Tel Aviv there's a discussion the declaration of independence should we include the name of God or should we exclude the name of God and two opinions no consensus so there was a Jewish compromise we're going to write in the in the declaration of independence the rock of Israel the atheists are going to explain this this is a piece of stone important stone and the religious people and the believing people are going to explain that this is God my great uncle won also swiss born leaving switzerland in 1933 fearful that Hitler is going to take german switzerland as part of greater Germany and also one of the signatories of the declaration of independence was carrying the discussion so going 65 years later what is very interesting is that it used to be that the religion was politics and was totally politicized there were the ultra-religious parties the religious parties the anti-clerical parties and the socialist parties what is happening today is that for example the party which was the most successful one doing these last elections yeh shatid there is a future which is started by a very famous journalist and telepersonality jaylopid has within his 19 seats he got in the kinesis three religious people and so has also the government the Taniaus party and even the left party has also the head the previous head of human resources of the Israeli defense force was also a religious person on her slot so what is happening there is something very interesting that religion is getting depoliticized and every and the secular becoming less secular but which is something very interesting is happening now you can think that the country is becoming more radical orthodox but just the opposite is happening why because for example in four months from now you're going to have the elections for the chief cabinet now till now there was a the Israeli political system was okay this does it's not a question for the secular majority this is a question for the religious minority you decide among yourself who you want as a chief rabbi so the general public was not interested in that question today it's different and the secular parties say we are interested it is important for us to know that the next Jewish pope with two of them we have an Ashkenazi one and Svaldi one and should be a person who is liberal enough to speak to all of Israel and not only to the religious orthodox minority so becoming less secular but also more tolerant this is I would say this is the new Israel of 2013 I have to add because I live in Israel all the time you didn't no I think I admit okay no no you have a lot of important points I just want to add really quickly that for example you gave the example of Yair Lapid most of Yair Lapid campaign was I'm going to make sure religious people is going to are going to serve in the army and so it's very complex you have so many different opinions in Israel and many non-religious people you have it's I wish what you say will be more true you know that we will be tolerant towards each other because I think this is the key like religious people and non-religious in Israel because we have the same cause but we have I feel just it was I felt that it's mandatory to represent this conflict of that's not all the citizens in Israel serve the army not all Jewish citizens and I'm not saying how it's supposed to be but like it's complex that's all I'm saying but I hope we'll look to a better place as someone who doesn't live in Israel I should say from looking right outside it doesn't look like tolerance is a big part of the reason wait wait okay anyway okay okay thank you we will have a discussion I promise you Farsullah you have experience many tough times in your life you've been exiled from your country but you've always found the strength to come back and you know as you said today just now you know you found the strength to to contribute to society what kept you going all those years when you were in exile for me an exile is very good for contemplation for reflections and I also see it's my privilege people find myself at home which was less privileged were killed were maimed indeed majority of the poor were destroyed people not even aware of that's why I don't use the word Thailand because the Thai armed majority and they're oppressing the minorities in the south we have the Muslim Malay they don't want to become Thai and we should honor that and my voice is speaking for truth speaking for the minorities seeking for what I regard as right and I'm willing to learn from others but the people the power that we oppressed people but looking back I have been exiled for three or four times in my short life of 80 years old but I think on the whole civic society in my country has become much stronger the NGOs have become much stronger and my small contribution to them is that they need to be more spiritual they don't have to be religious that is they should care more for others particularly the less privileged one and I see that it's moving not only in my country even Burma the most oppressive regime Burma is moving much more positively even China because most repressive civic society also moving and they also become more and more spiritual and I look forward very much positively for something positive from spiritual traditions for the future thank you very much I think that is one of the themes that we will try and touch on in our religion and spirituality are they one of the same or is there something different but I would not like to move to Dr. Cross as the only atheist amongst us you've heard all the religion all the religious people make their point my question to you is oh I should have five times as long no you have the same amount of time yeah no I'm sorry my question to you is does a true scientist have to be an atheist well every a famous biologist once said every scientist is an atheist when they go in the laboratory they don't think anyone is twiddling the knobs they and and that they accept the fact that the evidence of the experiment will tell them what's going on they don't think that someone's controlling it so I don't define myself as an atheist I should first say that I define myself as an anti-theist um namely I could it would be presumptuous of me to say there's no purpose to the universe because I can't prove that I can't prove there's no God I can't say definitively there's no God what I can say definitively however is that I wouldn't want to live in a universe with one okay and and the reason for that is that that I find that this question of meaning is an interesting question and if science tells us that there's no objective meaning to the universe no purpose or meaning does that make our lives purposeless and meaningless absolutely not quite the contrary it means the purpose and meaning in our lives is what we make it makes what we do more important it makes the compassion we show others more important we're not being told what to do by some cosmic Saddam Hussein who by the way in many religions doesn't just condemn you to torture for why you're alive but for all eternity you do it because we derive meaning and in fact the recognition not from religion that all humans have equal dignity but from science that we all have we're all a common species in fact that there's nothing sacred that we create compassion and action and in fact that humans are no different than other animals in the sense of being evolved species and we have to realize that we share the earth with them and in fact those ideas allow us to address what are the real problems of the 21st century and if we keep going back to this medieval or earlier kind of myths we won't address that in fact I sort of take umbrage at this sister's remarks because I don't think anything she said had anything to do with religion she said understanding dignity treating people with compassion and then what people of religion do is they usurp that they say if you're not religious you can't have any of that but all of those ideas come from a rational view of who we are and how we should relate to others the best example of tolerance and across cultures that I can think of is nearby here in Geneva at the Large Hadron Collider there is a machine that's built by people from a hundred different countries speaking a dozen different languages with many different religions and cultures building these devices that have to work to a millionth of a meter and it works because science brings people together science tells us that we can we are a common species and we can work together to make the world a better place and I will close with a quote I won't sing it you'll be pleased to know so from Jacob Bernowski he said you know the world is permeated through and through by science and you can't turn it into a game merely by picking sides like it or not the world is governed by science the physical world and if we want to deal with our real problems we have to accept what nature is telling us instead of imposing our beliefs on nature thank you I am sure you know we have enough topics and enough discussion points to start a very lively discussion so now I will throw the questions to the floor if there are any questions I will take what I'll do is I'll take three questions first and then we'll get them answered and then we'll move on to the other questions now please keep your questions brief and to the point and also who you are addressing the question to have a question mark at the end and I have a question mark at the end yes sir in the front seat and then I'll come to you yeah it's coming Luke testing brilliant thank you panel for the lively discussion I thought that was fantastic Professor Kraus big fan you know where my legions lies now I would like to address to the religious side of the panel two points much of the developed world is run secularly and I mean constitution wise yes religion does play a role in the lives of people I have no doubt but why do we base our laws on secularity that's my first question second question when countries have been built on the basis purely of a religion they've imploded Pakistan and Afghanistan and to an extent I would argue Israel and lastly just a quote since that seems to be the trend the Dalai Lama said when science proves religion wrong religion must evolve pun intended thank you thank you so that that question is an open question I assume okay yes sir I think that's what's next is religion still time-consuming yes definitely many people want to be religious or are religious but do they want to have this god who says I am the truth who says for example lies get a punishment of eternal fire or homosexuality is sin man and man and child are not a family do you want such a god or do you not want to actually get rid of it that's actually the question is that still time-consuming and I believe that's the way it is you want to get rid of this holy god of the measure of others and like to have a religion that replaces him that would now be a question on the best I would that you answer the catholic on it thank you yeah one last one more question now there's on the back yes and not wonder that one does and the other as god talchen benend that's actually only the contribution for the science then quickly something else I was recently in a management course and you have everything checked through what you need today in science but in the end you said and now remember that you also have a spiritual ability have with your spirit can you still reach something that you have a foretaste for the competition and what does that mean the spirit the spirit is the medium that we have to have power it means bad and easy that we pray and replace and it leads something begging with our spirit that we wish and that's actually something that can help us in our daily life also can help very much and now I have a general wish that's actually for all people when we are aware of what we can read in our bible as Christians if we don't just believe that the sin case from the snake and the apple or whatever a banana is but that we know that it's about the tree of life has gone and the tree of knowledge then we also know what really is in the bible and then we can also eventually a little defend against outside then we don't have to be afraid of a headscarf but we can answer it in the discussion we stand for our faith thank you sir thank you I will take this question these three questions first and then we'll move on to the next round of questions so the first question points to the developed world and how countries are run on secularism rather than on religion maybe Father Christopher you might want to take a jab at that I think that it's a very short term historical perspective to say that secular societies are wonderful and religious societies are dreadful I think that that we're living through a great development in human history which is the rise of secularity in culture this is a new development and it is highly successful that cannot be denied I think what's happening is that religion is finding a new place within secular society and I would simply a quote from Pope Benedict who addresses this question the whole time it's one of his great themes is that faith and reason need to be in dialogue and I think it's that dialogue which will produce a secular culture which has a public square in which all opinions can be expressed publicly not just privately and I think that for me is where it's going and I think that where there is a fundamentalist religion still in control of the state I agree with you I think it's a very dangerous place Can I jump in and just Sure Yeah a little bit I think if I think if you take the long term you have a worse view of societies that have been run by religion in the long term of human history from the crusades and back before that I think that you found that human freedom eventually arose with the enlightenment of knowledge and in fact open questioning which is the hallmark of science and in fact if you want to call it the dialogue of faith and reason the hallmark of science is that nothing is above question including God and the minute we stop we make certain things sacred and not subject to question we we demean ourselves and we stop thinking I also think we're kind of I have to say I think we're missing where we're deviating from the point of this discussion the question the question isn't isn't is religion important because that's an obvious thing religion is obviously important so are nuclear weapons the question is is religion outmoded and are nuclear weapons outmoded and will the world be a better place without them and the answer both those is yes okay religion is very important nuclear weapons are very important but neither of them in the modern world serve a productive purpose and so I think that I accept and don't need to debate the question of whether religion is an important part of of the way the world is run the question is should it be should it continue to be and is it decreasing and in fact what also has been pointed out is that in most places in fact happily monotonically in the first world the people identifying themselves as religious is decreasing year by year the first year in England by the way as you know from a recent poll more than a fit more than half the population finally acknowledged that they they didn't have any religious affiliation in the United States even it's been decreasing in spite of the efficiency of competition so in any case so I wanted to just throw those things in thank you one second yeah okay I'll give you an opportunity Carol or you want to okay go ahead I think we must not overstate the achievement of secular society it gives you certain elements of equality of freedom but if you stick to secularity the spiritual element is missing and particularly religion at it words or it base or so something you don't understand and in the secular world now you embrace a new demonic religion or consumerism promoting creed promoting hatred promoting delusion even mainstream education promoting ignorance selfishness I think those in the secular world need to learn to be more spiritual one need not be religious but if you take religions for the 21st century you must reinterpret religion appropriately I cannot speak for the Catholics but for my Buddhist you have to use two kind of languages one is the worldly language God created the world six days is the worldly language but spiritual language the world was created that mysteriously and we should understand those people who believe in that traditions otherwise you think that they are decadent they are old fashioned I think every faith have its spiritual language and if you respect those spiritual language you could have dialogue and I think dialogue you're so good for the scientists if the scientists are so arrogant that they know all the answers that will not be helpful for them okay scientists is very helpful materially but if scientists become more humble they can use scientific approach to understand the mystery of life be your materialism okay I gotta come back I find it remarkable so the idea is that science doesn't have any spirituality which of course is wrong if you wanna if you wanna get awe and want the reason I write books the reason I talk about science look at a Hubble space telescope picture of the 400 billion galaxies in our universe look out and see galaxies 10 billion light years away that may once have had civilizations around them that are living each of them as 100 billion stars look at what we learn about the universe look at how atoms work those things produce awe and wonder and mystery the reason I'm a scientist is I love mysteries and so to pretend that science is just dry and has no spirituality and therefore is somehow less significant than faith is just to misunderstand science and to demean it and so the point the discussion we can have is how wonderful and amazing the universe is and I think we would share in that discussion but to condemn science as being consumerism look I'm an educator I wanna educate people because I want them to learn about how to live a better life and how the world works and to be able to make their own decisions and to experience more joy because the more you understand yourselves the more you understand nature I think the more enriching life is thank you if I may just add I think that both religion and science are basically two sides of the same coin but maybe Carol would you like to jump in and talk about the gulf of truth I guess I get to deal with the the Catholic we probably do hold the record for being able to make the most mistakes but I think it is really important and it is part of a mature faith to differentiate your faith from your hierarchy your rule makers we've seen rule makers in science be wrong and we've seen rule makers in religion be wrong and we've seen people pervert science and we've seen people pervert religion and use it for their own for their own good and self-aggrandizement and we certainly in this last century have got way more than our share of examples of that and although the preceding century certainly do often when I am in the Vatican at a conference and I come down the steps in the Vatican inside the Vatican there's this huge statue of St. Joan of Arc and I always feel compelled to go up and pat her on the shoulder and say Joanie, I don't see any statues of those boys that burned you it is important to remember that the mistakes in behavior in rulemaking by leadership are not the faith and if you don't do that you don't grow to an adult faith and it's part of understanding what your faith is about you point out some really serious concerns and it is so clear in the Gospels that God didn't ask us to judge others there's a wonderful French play where at the end of the world we're doing a lot of this end of the world stuff at the end of the world you know they've got the ones on the right hand in the left hand side God in their right hand ones are ready to get into paradise and the folks on the left hand are about to be marched down to hell and the people on the right are really feeling pretty important about themselves and suddenly a rumor starts that God is welcoming everyone into paradise and they start complaining and grumbling against God and that instant are damned because the essence of being like God is to be loving to everyone loving to all creation I would just say to my friend Professor Krauss he I appreciate that he takes umbrage at my statements he is not the first person to do so if he would google me he would find himself in company with a number of bishops and I'm sure to be probably the first and last time he's been in company with them thank you well I was at the Vatican and I was in with a company of a lot of bishops but let me I'm sorry I'm going to keep responding because I think I'm the only respondent to these statements that I think that you hit a key point and I agree with you completely that you can't condemn a whole population because of some individual okay but the difference is is that there are no rule makers in science there are no authorities that's the hallmark of science there's no such thing as a scientific authority there are scientific experts but the lowliest student can can in fact disprove any there's no chief scientist there may be a chief rabbi there may be a pope but there's no chief scientist we say oh what's what's the answer how should we behave that's the key that's the key facet of science that makes it so wonderful is that there are no authorities now of course scientists although many people wouldn't realize this are actually people and therefore they have all the same foibles as anyone else and their scientists who are who abuse their science as well as every other aspect of their life but the key aspect is there are no rule makers I want to add to the second question so I'm referring to what's written in the books you spoke about us religious leaders but also in some of the books we can see some quotes that can be interpreted in violent ways and I felt that the third question answered the second questions that he gave the metaphor of the tree of knowledge and I really look on all of the religious books its symbolism and we as readers need to be intelligent and to interpret them in our ways in our journey and we can look at and we can see an example in Israel which is a tolerant country as opposed to what Professor Krauss said so we have like some projects and examples of people that are working together although they are from different religions because they look under books as symbolism and they don't really think that they're supposed not to talk to each other it depends on the person and the last thing I want to say about science in the university we studied that when was the scientific revolution because once upon a time you could never say anything else that contradicts religion and then there was Copernicus great guy and he was very brave and then they had an agreement between the church and scientists which they say that the scientists what they can do is they can describe phenomenons that happen in the universe but so they can explain how but they can't explain why and the why is a mystery that's not something that neither of us knows and if someone in this room knows like I said before I would like to meet with him after and I think it's like you said two sides in the same coin and let's be tolerant towards each other because hold on I agree with the first everything you said but are you suggesting religion explains why I think religion connects us to something higher and then we can feel that that why is not something we can say with words it is too big for this discussion and for our finite minds well I think science would agree scientists would say that why is ultimately a stupid question it doesn't I mean I think anyone here who's a parent knows that you know if you have a child the ultimate answer to why why why is go to bed and I think that we you know when we ever we say whenever we say why we really mean how and so we can understand how the universe works but why do we need to ask the question why it may have no fundamental meaning and so I don't think science presumes to answer that question and if religion presumes to answer that question I think inevitably it's proved itself not being able to do that and in terms of the tree of knowledge and the speaker in the back who we let's not talk about the God particle it's not but why and you said it yourself why do we have to spend so much time interpreting the Bible what is special about that book that is different than anything else I mean that's the point we should not waste our time trying to interpret what people who didn't even know there were dinosaurs or the earth orbited the sun or that evolution happened why should we try and interpret those ignorant beliefs in a modern world where we actually understand things but if science is a fact why do you advocate it if you know it's true why are you protecting it I feel that it's your religion like you're protecting your religion very strong you know I know you said that before but the big difference is if you the main thing is in fact what I've always what scientists hope for and what science does for us and what I hope every student and every person experiences once in their life is to have something they deeply believe in that's at the heart of their being that without it they wouldn't feel they were human proved to be wrong it happens to me every day as a scientist and that opens your mind and so the point is that they're I'm ready to change my views the minute nature tells me that and if we if we all were willing to change our minds when we are proved wrong the world would be a better place thank you I think we'll move on from there one second one second I saw a question from the lady previously which I didn't get answered yes and then I'll come to the person the gentleman in the middle and then I'll come to you sir so the last three okay Mike there please I think it's wrong to hold a mic when I haven't actually indicated that you cannot ask the question we don't understand the question what was the question what was the question I didn't get that's easy damn can I give the the well that's an easy answer can I give the answer to that yeah you can yeah you can okay I'll ask the professor I know I know I said I get the answer yeah yeah give it this question was first asked in Oxford England in the 19th century by an Anglican bishop of Huxley and Huxley quite rightly said I would rather be descended from an ape than descended from someone who was afraid to ask that question but there is a simpler answer and the answer is we're descended from a common ancestor we're not we're not descended from modern apes we we are we have a common ancestor and it's an it's not a as I said it's like Brunelsky's thing it's not a question of choosing to believe it's like choosing to believe if I walk out the 10th floor of a window that I can walk the we are descended from a common ancestor there's no doubt about it the lady the lady stop okay yeah okay I'll come to you sir I said you're the third person go ahead okay I would like to ask a question to Dr Krauss do you believe that God creates human being I think that's a basic question and I will follow up with my next question after your answer if you don't mind should I wait to answer or do you want to does it depend on his answer the question well the second question he's on well I mean the point is that belief is I don't believe in anything um I I I asked the question you know how did how did we arise here and in fact I what I what's remarkable is that I've discovered that from studying science that in fact humans evolve from earlier species of animals and life originated as chemistry turned to biology and then in fact the whole universe can arise from nothing I just wrote a book about it without any divine intervention so all I can say is I don't see any evidence of God I don't see any evidence that there's a teapot orbiting Jupiter I can't prove that there isn't but since I don't see any evidence for God in any of my studies of science the question is irrelevant okay well um if you don't believe that God create the human being then how do you explain what you believe is not a myth because that is also not scientifically we are absolutely right if tomorrow as I've often said I can't disprove God I would be presumptuous immediately you can't prove it in the negative I can't disprove the existence of purpose in the universe if tonight the stars realigned and said in Aramaic or Hebrew or will you pick your language I am here you know what I'd say hey there's something to that right but in the absence of that all I can say is my I don't need that hypothesis in order to understand the universe and so I'll just ignore it for the moment that's all I can't say if there's evidence for purpose I would be the first person to be excited about it because what scientists want to do every day is not have a have a have a unified you want to go into work every day and prove your colleagues wrong because that's how you become famous but I think in purpose in life is not to become famous no no but I mean that's what I'm kidding I'm kidding I'm just saying each person should find his own evidence to the presence of God in something bigger and when I hear a person says he doesn't find evidence so it's pretty sad and I think you should find evidence not for science but for your life because it's happy yeah I wouldn't say I didn't find evidence I said science doesn't provide evidence and I think you'll agree with that rabbi I've been listening very carefully number one I want to say that God does not need my defense our defense he's strong enough without us and number two I've been fortunate enough during the last 25 years when I still came to the Soviet Union an atheist state with the atheist state ideology and I must tell you something I hardly found any atheists there I hardly found any person to find a person says I actually don't believe in God I hardly found a person like that there were a lot of people who had questions how it looked like how many what's his name how many are there yes but a person who does not believe in a higher being I have hardly met a person like that and showing the renaissance of faith in the ex-communist block shows that the ingrained believe in the human of the human being that there is a higher being and we are connected to him is something which even 70 years of state atheism couldn't stop it's a very good point and I think that I think I'm sorry I have to keep count because I'm the only one second I believe that you should speak because you are an endangered minority I think not but but the key point is I agree with you completely on the surface of what you said namely I do think there's great evidence religion has pervaded all of human society throughout all of human history there's clearly something ingrained either in an evolutionary sense or a neuro physiological sense in the need to believe in something bigger than ourselves and we have to and to deny that is to deny the evidence of reality that's absolutely true but just because we all share that doesn't mean it's true it just means that we have an ingrained need to believe that we have an so I think the recognition that religious belief is universal is really important to understand if you want to understand human beings and if you want to understand how to move to a world where we can address the problems that you know xenophobia is is ingrained in biological systems that in and out systems us versus you all of these things have a sound evolutionary basis but if we want to be a human society and work together we have to understand that basis so we can move beyond it and that's my feeling about religion thank you very much I think we'll move on there's a question from the middle this gentleman and here's the mic thank you thank you very much I have a question to all the panelists first I want to thank you mr Krauss because he seems to be one of the well I don't want to say the apostles of God but he is slightly wrong in one little devil's advocate I prefer he said exactly no the real advocate because he said there is no ruler in science and I think he missed one word there is no human ruler in science so um a cling on maybe but I'm not my question is where does knowledge according to you come from and where does the advancement in knowledge come from thank you can I start we'll take one more we'll take the two questions at the back and then we'll continue this gentleman first the one who's okay that one and then the one in the sweater yeah hi I'm struck by the fact that all the defenders of religion on this panel defended largely because of the benefits that accrue if you believe then x y and z or the human need that is manifest as professor Krauss has said and very seldom this afternoon which has been very interesting have I heard the word truth religion seeks to do two things as far as I've observed one is to explain the universe and the other is to bring all kinds of benefit um so my question I will have two questions briefly one is equally to both sides of this panel including the endanger endanger minority do we believe in the convenient line if it were not true that there is a God or similarly if it could not be proven to be true that there is a God to anybody's reasonable satisfaction including Rabbi Goldstein and everyone else but you could show that there's benefits you know if people believe there's a God they go around not killing each other respecting their parents and this that and the other do we want to have it and that question I think I would pose equally to professor Krauss we can't prove there's a God but that's why you're alive someone hasn't killed you because they don't want to be smitten by God do you accept that religion is good because it's brought about all this benefit and the corollary question is is the benefit outmoded because I think that's the purpose of today's panel to discuss about the outmoding of religion so I posit to you my own personal opinion religion brought all kinds of bad stuff the crusades and everything horrible but it also gave us 10 commandments and people obeyed those 10 commandments because they feared a God that might well have not existed and I also think that probably a few people believed in God they suspected they feared they assessed I don't even know what the word belief means but that whole compendium helped them do good do we no longer need it in other words would we today respect the 10 commandments or their equivalent all these good things without the need to believe that God will punish you because rationality is sufficiently ingrained but I really do want an answer from the religious people on this panel to the former have you considered that your primary defense is one of utility and not of truth okay only one sentence and one question and to make it sharp and short short I speak in German one sentence can maybe remember from today if I want to know God it is better to listen to five minutes than to study for five years I come to my question on the panel because they speak so long about religion and nothing specifically about God say okay since we have five minutes left we'll take one last question from the gentleman and then we'll answer the questions yeah okay sir where's the mic yeah I don't think we're gonna have time for another question if you actually want the last one and then we'll round up we don't have to answer each of them actually actually we are here what we what we actually wanted to discuss what is written in the program is what religion can do good for our society also in economic terms and in all monotheistic religions actually there is a we should not take any interest on money and we are an economic forum which is written committed to improving the state of the world what is this economic foreign foreign doing this is really my question it's exploiting the world they say we should have more growth they say we should make money out of money and just distribute one billion people are don't have enough to eat and so on actually these are the most important questions and I know that the religions they have a big answer they say what this lady the nun said we should share more we should stop exploitation we should not steal we should not lie and so on so these commitments I think it's so helpful but if I see how many weapons got how you say you know giving how you say in English case ignorant if you if you see how many wars were supported by the religious organizations I think the really then it's a big problem of ethics what we have on this planet and I see a chance that the religious organizations can stop the economic leaders to exploit this planet just sorry are we what is the question because we if for example Mr. Goldsmith is able to stop the war in Israel and in other countries by saying please don't produce weapons stop to these productions these these kind of things don't make money out of money this is Goldsmith's should be knowing about this rule okay thank you very much I think what we'll do is since there were so many questions and deep issues there were raised each of the panels will be given one minute to sum up yes well I'm gonna drive it a little bit since since there was so much interest raised so maybe 30 seconds each okay 30 seconds each to sum up I like to answer the last question I think if we are religious people committed to spiritual well-being I think we should speak truth to power economic forum here consists of full of top people in powers and they are on the wrong path they feel that the improvement of the world in fact improvement among themselves destroying the environment oppressing the poor I think we should be courageous enough to tell them and ask them to learn to be more humble even the scientists also need to be more humble and they need perhaps to breathe more properly and speak less and think less and then perhaps we can make some contribution thank you Rabbi um very short the Chinese Academy of Sciences a few years ago discussed why did Europe move forward in the last 500 years versus China which was the most advanced most advanced society beforehand and they said it was uh it was not science it was not the armies it was not the weapons it was the religion it was the European religions which created the support system which created the successful Europe of the last 500 years which created science emancipation and the enlightenment number two regarding Israel in the secular century the 20th century a third of our people were killed in Europe six million and 40 to 50 million people were killed by atheists by anti-religious systems and states much more than all the crusades religious wars put together and uh when our people created the state three years after the end of the Holocaust we brought in unlike Switzerland we brought in refugees from Sudan from Somalia and we are open to many other countries and Israel is doing its maximum as a free society as the only democracy in the Middle East today it's the only place where Christians the Christian community has grown by 400 percent in all the other Middle Eastern countries the percentage the numbers of Christians is going down from day to day let me try to speak quickly to your question about why we didn't speak more about God and the the whole mystery of God and the transcendence of God and a personal view and perspective and that was because of the title of the program and so the program asked us to focus on the role of religion as opposed to a concept of God and that's why you didn't hear more at least that's I think why you didn't hear more from us I would certainly move then to your next thesis about whether you know we don't need this concept of a transcendent God and you your concept of this God that you know has the ability to punish and that's why we do it we're told that's not my concept but but it is a concept that is very prevalent and I I certainly am not going to argue that and whether we would be and we are not at a moment of great great enough maturity that we would follow the tenets of the Ten Commandments and have a safe world even if we didn't have the Ten Commandments and it sort of reminds me of somebody who was bragging to President Abraham Lincoln that he was a self-made man and Abraham Lincoln didn't think a lot of the product and he said that was very nice of him to absolve God from the guilt so I honestly believe in my heart that if if you the concept of God is having made the rule made the world calls us to become much more than than what we are now made the cosmos and I do think that Professor Krauss is right you can't you know you just cannot look at at so much of science and not be in utter awe I do believe that we need whether it's in the form of the Ten Commandments or in our hearts I do believe that we need something to help us not fall into the abusive behaviors we've seen across the centuries I don't think we're much better than our predecessors thank you we'll go from the from the out to the end so father I'm a quick parable I think the people who raised the question about knowledge and truth are onto the point where I think there's a really really important discussion I give you a little parable my picture of how it works I believe God gave all of us six boxes of knowledge but he only ever gave five of us he only gave us five keys and he gave our sixth key to another person well let's see there were a lot of questions they were good questions I wish I had more time for it um the the uh I actually agree with the rabbi that in fact religion I do think is responsible for at least in Europe for the rise of science and there's nothing wrong about that that's fine and it's a rising enlightenment and the reason was was the only game in town it was the it was the national science foundation of the of the 14th century but at least we agree on some yeah yeah yeah that's right and so uh but that's fine and it led to something that's remarkable and we should thank it and move on um and but the question of of morality which you really raise in some sense or utility is an interesting and a deep question which really requires a lot more discussion but I think I think the statement made that um people don't kill me because they believe in God I think few people in this room although it's not so clear after this debate but few people um in this room would say they didn't if they didn't believe in God would they shoot me I think almost most most of people in this room would say no I've asked that to audiences only once or twice that people put up the instant said yes but I so I think there are other reasons that people have morality in fact if we want to seek morality I happen to personally think that the bible certainly the Old Testament is the word where the Ten Commandments are written is one of the worst places to look there was no problem with sluying the first born child and of our entire civilization or giving your daughters out to be raped because you'd want men to be raped and so I don't think that's a really a morality and the but the final thing I think I'll say and I think it's really important this humility thing that you brought up because and I think it's an important part of the Buddhist tradition that I admire but I think it's very I think I I should listen more and I try as I get older but but but thinking less is something I I never want to do and I do think that ultimately science is the most humble activity assuming the universe is made for us is not humble assuming that we're an insignificant bit of our marvelous universe and we make the most of it as we can is humble thank you okay so first of all regarding the person that spoke about this gathering in the world economic forum so we are gathering here multi-stakeholders and I actually think it's the best solution for the conflicts we have in the world because we meet people here as equals and I can see that so many people here are not so different than I am and I wish we had more gatherings like that of different organizations all over the world so we can feel that we are this global community that has this shared values about the knowledge where does knowledge come from so I don't know I don't know where knowledge comes from and I wish I knew and I don't know even what's going to be my next thought nobody knows what is it going to think in a minute and I think that's the humbleness we're talking about which is really important and that's the places where we can really listen to God like someone asked like in these spaces which we really don't know what's left that's it thank you very much I don't think I would even try to attempt to summarize the discussion this afternoon it has been great I think I would like to deeply and humbly thank my panelists for sharing their thoughts and their feelings I think they've been very honest which is very important in terms of having a broad and open discussion and I think that's really how we can move forward by having an honest discussion and being able to respect differences but being honest about what you think so thank you very much once again for coming along and providing us with your thank you