 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I am your host Scott Bernstein along with my Co-conspirator partner in crime the doctor Jimmy Bucci Lotto. Hi, everyone And we got Ben behind the glass on the wheels of steel our producer our MVP Ben, how you doing doing well? So today we are going to bring back the quintessential original gangsters And I say that because this individual not only was he a major figure in organized crime on the East Coast in the 2000s He was a boss by the time he was in his early 30s Anthony Benjie or a lot of is gonna join us. He was our first ever interview when we started this podcast I think it was in 19. Maybe the end of 18 And we did about a half hour with him And it wasn't the best quality and people have been on our ass for two plus years to get him back And hopefully this will be the first of many more Collaborations Anthony. Thank you for joining us What's going on Scott? Thanks for having me on what's up Jimmy and Ben? He's doing doing well. Thank you. Thanks for coming back on the show. Yeah, he was one of our first big guys Our first yeah, we might not have dropped we might not have dropped the episode first Yeah, but it was the first time that we recorded og podcast with me you and Roberto. Yeah, that's right That's right, and Jimmy was on it, right? That's when I yeah Yeah, and uh when I did that when I was actually when I had my first like I like I said, I never worked was the first job I Ever had in my life, but I was working at the car lot so during that interview when we got cut off short they were calling me to come to the Showroom and that's why probably they're roughly ended the way it did but uh, I Was walking around the the car parking lot while we were doing the interview was funny Yeah, everybody like took some heat people were saying why would you cut him off? Like that was a great interview I'm with it. We're like, why didn't you have him on for five hours? We love this. You only gave us 25 minutes Yeah, it was like it wasn't our call just way it went down But just to just go ahead. Sorry Anthony go ahead. Well, no, I was gonna say that's why it abruptly ended because I was Got in the loudspeaker. They were calling me calling me and it's a little you know, legitimate job I was getting on getting paid to come and they didn't you know So I'm walking around my job and then they're calling me. So I had to go so Yeah, this is Anthony's life now. We're gonna talk I'm not gonna say a little bit. We'll talk about a lot about His life back in the 80s 90s and 2000s just to give people a quick synopsis Anthony grew up on Western Massachusetts Springfield, Massachusetts, which is like the the county seat if you will for the Genovese crime family in that area and Came up under some some real Big-time mafia powers in his area the scabella Scabelle brothers Frankie skyball and his brothers and then big Al Bruno and then eventually Benji became the boss of Springfield, Massachusetts reporting directly to the Genovese crime family But one of the reasons we wanted to bring him in today is To kind of take some of this This is something we love to do on the og podcast We take a little bit of old then we take a little bit of new and we and we sprinkle it together so when he was on the street in The 90s and early 2000s Mostly in the early 2000s. He had a pair of brothers with him that were You know his some of his top lieutenants Freddie and Tai Geass and Freddie Geass his name has been all over the news in the last couple years because according to the federal government He is the person that murdered whitey bulger the infamous Boston Irish crime lord also a Very very major Cooperator with the government put a lot of people in prison was a child predator not a lot of people know that really really bad guy and on the in the world of of OC there are there are good bad guys and there are bad bad guys and whitey bulger was a bad bad guy and Got transferred from a protection unit down in Florida into general population in a prison in West Virginia in October of 2018 and Was murdered within about eight hours and the government says that Freddie Geass did that and there's nobody That can give more insight into Freddie other than maybe Freddie himself Then then Anthony so Anthony, you know, let's just jump right in you know, he Freddie was indicted last week It's been a four-year investigation. What was your? What was your take on on what we're what he's facing right now? He's facing what he's doing like so but the problem with that is when you when you're doing life and get Murder somebody I guess the death penalty is on the table, you know, so I don't know if that'll go to that extreme Because whitey was such a bad guy But that's what he's you know other than that it's a you know, it's probably a Little wreck for me gets to come out of Jail take a ride to the courthouse Go through a trial, you know breaks up his little bit a little bit. He's been I'll get some What is it, you know, I want your opinion on the fact that? They kept him in solitary confinement for four years before they charge right. I mean that just that seems so above and beyond The way things should be done and I don't know what took so long I don't know why you couldn't charge the guy, you know within a couple months But they waited four years and they kept him, you know in 23 hour lockdown, which must have been, you know, a living hell you know You obviously are at one point. We're very close with Freddie. I mean, yeah, how do you how do you mentally, you know? cope with that Well, he they had an agenda the FBI why they did that They from what I'm was told and from what I'm hearing is they waited four years and and it's not really unheard of they could have waited It could work forever and kept them in, you know under under when you're in the feds and you're under investigation I've heard stories were guys one for ten years I mean, I know guys that were there for the rest of their life some guys ended up dying in the hole and They were so dangerous. They never let them out But from what I'm hearing is That the Feds will be ensued for that death and I guess the cases are just coming to end the Bolger family still with them and They were waiting for that to play out before all this I guess discovery came out during this trial I don't know how true that is, but that's what I've been hearing. That's why they've been they were, you know, stalling with it Um and you know, the Bolger family was a powerful family even though, you know, why he was a bad guy He had the brother that was a major Political force. He was the most powerful politician in Massachusetts. That wasn't the governor. There wasn't a cat That wasn't a cat, right? Yeah, and you know, you know, there's a big Irish population in mass so That way the politicians they're like gangsters Um, and we all know that but they were really powerful family. So when he got killed The powerful people that they know they still have connections within that on the legitimate side And so I guess they put a lawsuit in and that's what delayed the the indictment from what I was told Um, but either way he was going to sit in the hole So whether they charge him or not when you do an act of violence You go to the hole when you do murder You go to the hole murder you're going to stay there a lot longer. Usually they uh, if they're not going to charge you You're still going to stay in the hole like if say they didn't charge him they'd ship him to adx and you know or You know Mary and one of the you know those places And he would end it up in the hole there So he was going to go to the hole and stay in the hole for a long time and he they would get this Anthony, let me just interject one second. I'm sorry His family was putting pressure on B. O. P And the prosecutor. I mean his his uh, I know his daughter and some other his brother Or maybe it was his cousin. I don't he he was getting pressure Uh, or the the government was getting pressure from the gius family Right and that's because freddy, you know, they're not You're getting pressure from the family because freddy's telling them obviously he doesn't want to be in the hole So, you know, you know, he's like he tells them to charge me or not If you're not going to charge me that means i'm not guilty of a crime Then what am I doing in the hole that but if they call that they're what it's under investigation and they can do that Everybody says they can't do that. They can do whatever they want. So it's under investigation. They throw you in the hole There's a lot worse they can do too. So um, the family Because freddy doesn't want to be in the hole, of course, you know, so he's got his family support the family's trying to You know put pressure to get him You know, what are you guys going to do here charge them? It's not charge. I'm the white. He's doing the hole And that's uh, that's the pressure that they're getting from the family and you know freddy Obviously, he wants to get out and walk around the compound and you know, that's what he wants But that's why the pressure was coming. He'll be greeted as a hero He'll be greeted as a hero and in every prison that he's that he's in for the rest of his life I mean, this is a guy he's going to be greeted like a hero Listen Everybody like and i'm hurt, you know I'm sure you heard The penitentiaries are dangerous and there's guys in there. I mean there's stories you hear guys that their heads cut off They get stabbed a hundred times guards get killed. There's murders There's serious serious guys and they're killing other serious guys So under, you know, among the penitentiaries They're they're killing guys that you know Other serious guys in different crews are different in the within their own crew. You know, it's it's a it's a it's a dangerous I don't know if people grasp how dangerous the penitentiaries are. I'm not talking about federal prison. I'm talking The 13 penitentiaries that are that consist of the most violent criminals in the country And it's it's in some places Uh, it's a war zone. So I don't know if he's going to get treated like a hero I mean the guy was 90 years old in a wheelchair. I mean for notoriety status. Yeah He's going to have a lot of notoriety that he killed the infamous wetty bolger But um, I think he would have he would have been more of uh He he's a he's a legend throughout the world now Let's say because of the notoriety that the detention and it's getting because of who wetty bolger was but amongst that Inside that penitentiary system. That's just another murder and it's an old man murder That's you know, the guy was in a wheelchair. So that's not And he's never going to see a medium. He's going to stay at a penitentiary level So Is he going to be treated like a hero amongst them? I don't think so That's good. I mean he's going to be treated. He's going to be treated as with respect because of who he is You know, but that's not really something that you know, they look at that as like there's guys You know, there's guys in there that probably killed you know Maybe three four people inside the federal prison alone. There's guys in there. I was with guys that killed You know when the when those guys got indicted and there was like they they invited them for like 25 murders The Aryan brotherhood with the brand in them. I mean so, you know, those are the type of people that are in those high level penitentiaries And they're killing people I mean, I don't know if you go if you hear these stories or you don't But if you undo your a little investigation with the penitentiaries people are getting butchered in there And if they don't get bit butchered, it's close to getting butchered So we're we know they might be on uh Not be able to walk the rest of the life. So, you know all kinds of stuff Yeah, we did our episode with Seth Ferrante where he provided he did what 27 years 25 years He gives us a lot of a nonviolent 25 on the nonviolent Right, they just assumed he was a killer because his sentence was so so stiff But but he said that uh, you've got to click up right away either with the italians or the AB or the latinos or whomever the black dudes, whatever or else you'll you'll be in trouble So yeah, and if you're in a it depends if you're in a medium I mean, that's true. You're gonna have to click up with You know, whether you you don't have to click up. I mean, you could be a solo Guy, you know, that just goes in, you know, you're uh, um You know, you don't ride with no cars or you're riding with you know, like say your areas car They call it that like from me for mass if I don't want to join like the white Supremacy area in type groups or you know, there's white guys that join blackings There's white guys that join the bloods They join uh, there's I guess in other prisons the crypts, you know, there's white guys that join latin kings and they got this Net guys, you know and all these different spanish organizations that you got the mexican You got a lot of different games. So when they come in and the reason they do that and a big point about Why are you getting killed is? You have to police your area So if i'm from mass freddy was hanging around with the mass guys They call it the massachusetts the boston car They would call it because boston's the biggest city But it's you know, it's massachusetts guys that massachusetts guys would would click with the new york guide Those guys usually clicked with their own cars, but they all stuck together and they were dangerous force boston guys have a strong reputation In the federal system as the boston car is like a serious Car they're well like guys and um, so when a guy comes in Say it's a guy coming in from california and it's a white guy. Well the arian brotherhoods or the white I don't know what other white game they got with uh You know, I'll confront him But someone's gonna confront him and find out who this guy is if they they want to see paperwork. They want to know The perfect that you weren't in informing at once even once or In implementation in a penitentiary if you shout down with the feds improper You're getting butchered or you're getting you're you're getting told to get off the uh The compound and if you don't you're getting butchered you're getting killed in a penitentiary So when whitey comes in freddy being with the boston Car and I know stories too. I could tell you what freddy in prison About situations that he'd been in with prisoners that were with him that are out now that i'm in contact with but uh freddy being in the boston car He's got a now And they knew that freddy. They knew that this guy came. I don't know if you saw yeah, it got leaked It got leaked out. No. No. No. No. No. No. It was the guy Uh, they I guess this guy was there. He was right across the uh, that's the cell from when they went in and killed them Did you see that? You know shaw mckinnon No, no. No. No. No. There was uh, there was a uh, spanish kid From uh, laurence massachusetts. He's out now. Okay. He was directly across the cell from fred from whitey bolger And this is coming from his mouth. He was there. He saw he saw them go in He didn't say names, but he said they went in They walked into the they knew whitey was there the night before. Yeah, that was good It says when the when the when the bus comes in They get word that who's coming in So the right of way because the guards tell them because they want to know where this guy's gonna go Is he gonna be a new york guy a boss of guys? He's gonna be a blood or cryptic They want to know they want to try to keep peace there And when the so when he knew he this guy knew that the uh whitey was there the night before and he's from laurence mass So he even said it he said oh shit's gonna pop off tomorrow with this guy Because he knew whitey in his past and he knew these boston guys They don't fuck around they're they got a serious car. So When so he said that he saw two guys walking They knocked them out cold right away Hit them with the lock knocked them out whitey was knocked out within three seconds And then they went to work on them for 10 minutes and he said they did them filthy They guys his eyes out right and then they threw them underneath, you know, they try to clean up the mess They went and took showers and then right after breakfast um They black everybody back in and the cop comes and goes around and that's when they are Locked up joint down they found whitey it was a crime scene and and that's you know That's coming from a guy directly that was there but freddy being In the boston car they had to Confront whitey now they couldn't went up to him and said hey whitey You don't even come out of yourself go back and tell them through You're not coming in population They gave them that option And but they didn't they just took it to the extreme level and they said fuck him And they went in there and murdered them anthony. Do you think the government set him up? I mean, why was he in a general population unit to start with? He came from a protection unit down in florida Yeah, well So I never believed in stuff like that, you know, like jeffree epps thing got killed. I never believed that You know, he was murdered I go ahead But now the way I've been seeing things transpire in the last and I've been Investigating doing my own investigation now. I see yes. That's very possible from what whitey And I have different takes on what whitey did Whitey corrupted law enforcement. He corrupted the fbi and he had more guys than The guys that got indicted, you know, a lot of guys died in the past and he had guys that were still living and guys that are older and retired very powerful people and And and there was a lot more than just connelly and morris and There was a lot at fixed year old. There was a lot of um organized crime state. There was a lot of federal uh FBI agents and there was also a lot of politicians. Don't forget dirty politician that so Yes, that's possible. I would say that's like a A 50 50 if they wanted to do that to him and kill him because I'm gonna tell you why it's 50 50 Because the reason he was there. I mean, we all know. I don't know if the audience knows is He was at colman and he was treated like a king there. He was treated. You're saying white. You're saying white You're saying whitey was whitey whitey bolger was at colman. Uh penitentiary And this place is housing it houses regular inmates serious and make but it also houses people that might have cooperated in the past or Had some dirt on them. So it's kind of like they send them to colman and When he was there if you got into an argument with Staff with the nurse threatened the nurse said I could have you killed Um, you know, the nurse was busting his balls and he threatened her and they took him out of it Now if he didn't threaten the nurse He never gets taken out of there. He never gets killed So when they when you when you say that they sent them there to get killed What if he never threatened the nurse do you think they would have took him out of colman and sent them there? No, they would have left them in colman and he would have died there. So That type of conspiracy. I don't think I would think it's not But once he did do that now it now they have a chance now he opened the door And they could have said now let's you know, send them there and but here's another thing He could have said They asked them when he came in did you ever were you ever an informant and he said no So he could have very easily said I don't want to go to population. Yeah, but anthony. Well, isn't it the Isn't it the facility's job to know who they have coming into their Uh into their building. I mean, no, I mean there were very few in his notoriety There were very few more infamous cooperators in the history of our judicial system Then there's a whole movie black mass and there's too many there's too many give you an example departed then Yeah, yeah, the parlor wasn't that though without about the white. I mean it was similar The character was loosely yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, but uh when you go in there, no, this is true I mean you're ever here to story guy. They released the guy by accident You know and mistake and the guy got let out. I mean they do make mistakes when you go in there they If you sit in front of uh when you get there. Yes, I know the big wigs and everybody should know it and they say Why are you sending them there? But if the guy threatened the nurse and he's not in the witness protection program, where are you going to send them? He's going to a higher level You know, yes, they did fuck up by doing that. Um, but they do ask you them questions like Do you are you okay to go to population? And if you say no They put it down. They don't care. They don't care if you get killed or or you know And a lot of people Like say the staff when he came in in west virginia, they probably don't know who he is I'm talking the intake like they see this old guy coming and they probably don't know, you know who that is That's the infamous whitey bulger. He's this is it So and and and obviously they're doing their job. Their job is intake. Were you an informant? No, okay Do you have any problems when I'm banging on these? No, okay Boom go ahead process them get him in there Now somebody still should have been You know eventually like in other words They okay, here's my point. They would have probably caught it but they caught it too late Like the next day when they found out are you kidding me? Why do bulgers and population close the thing down lock everybody down and they would have moved them out But I think it you know, it just happened so fast. I didn't have that chance There's a lot of guys like you pointed out There's a lot of guys from new england that are housed in that hazelton facility In in west virginia. So it's kind of known as a place Where boston runs the yard or runs part of the yard So it also kind of makes people scratch their heads out of all the prisons to transfer him to and put him into a gen pop unit Why why would you send him to an area or a facility that had a lot of guys from boston that would know who it was Boston has a deep car there everywhere. There's not a federal prison I think that there was exist that there was in a boston car So explain it No, go ahead. I was going to say explain to people The difference between the group that you were with um In springfield, massachusetts, which was a wing of the genovase crime family one of the five new york mafia families and then the traditional organized crime Group in new england, which is the patriarca crime family Which is kind of based between boston and providence, but there's this other group that that anthony was in charge of Like we said at a very young age by 32 years old. He was he was running that whole area of the state But let people know the difference between the group that you were with and then the traditional oc in that area Well, there's no difference. We're all traditional oc gangsters mafia altogether. It's just two different families One family is out of providence in boston eastern mass And western mass is you know, it's the same thing. It's like why is the patriarch is in boston? Well, why is the genovese family in springfield? I mean they branch out and they just happened to branch out in the connecticut Mostly springfield. It was all springfield But we you know our crew in springfield filtered and did business all throughout connecticut all going into albany all throughout Easter Central mass we had a big care, you know going into old island So it's basically the same thing. It's just back in the day when Say one of the older guys that were around veto genovese or Lucky luciano even way back then those are that's considered the genovese family frank castello one of those guys Relocated to western mass area or you know and then you know He started it's just like why is they why do they go to florida? They start living in florida the next thing at all they start bring You know building a crew down there and then next thing you know They start making guys down there and then next thing you know It's the it's the it's a faction of the genovese family down there same thing only this happened in the early 1900s instead of You know later on, you know, so that's why the genovese family was a a dominant force for a long time here And it was just a wing offer like you said, but it's all the same. We're all connected. There's no difference from a made guy um There's made guys that were in this area that were at just as notorious Probably murdered more people than the mafia bosses in new york But you don't hear about them because they never get depressed like new york Monsters get you just for people to know the springfield crew was no mickey mouse crew I mean this was I mean maybe even today we we can discuss where they are today but when when you know from the early 20th century to when anthony ended up uh going to prison in 2009 That was a very dangerous profitable respected group of regime that was respected nationwide He just people wouldn't think of it when they when they think mob. They think new york chicago philadelphia They don't think springfield mass, but springfield mass had a very formidable group Yeah, if you call i don't know how you start like i'm a mickey mouse Like if you if you shed light on spring, you're shedding light in new york, they're one in the same A genovese family member is that's it. He gets to respect no matter where he goes So there's no difference than a made guy in springfield are made People might think that but they're all the same. They're one in the same Yeah, new york is the five families. They have so many more Soldiers and associates because they have so many more people in new york city of per capita Amongst the people that we have here Well, there was an article that was written that said we have more per capita And you can do the work on that one on michelma fee wrote that in 2006 In the boston herald she in january and she wrote that um springfield per capita has more Made guys and associates than any stronghold in the country including the bronx and brooklyn and that's public She wrote that so i mean we we had so many You know through connecticut, do don't forget you got another family patriarchas when they got arrested in the 90s there was like 20 of them made guys that were that got arrested and So when you combine the patriarchas, you know, it's the same thing if you go to new york You got the colombos. You got the genovese. You got the gibbiness. Well, it's the same thing here You got the patriarch is you got the genovese. So just because they're a different family We're still all made guys and our presence and we get along with the patriarch is so we treat each other Respectfully and we all get treated like kings We all they lay down the red carpet for us especially the you know in our areas We get treated like royalty, you know, you know, especially the old timers But even with me when when I was running around you get treated like a king So there's no it's all one and the same. It's just new york big empire state building big cities by families You know, I don't know how many people millions of people 10 million people there. All right, so you you cut that in 10 times, you know less And then but it's still per capita the same here And then when you when you it's it's and if you had to tell me what I want to be made in new york Which I got made in new york, but if I want to be in a crew in new york or a crew here I take this take this or in a heartbeat I wouldn't want to go in new york because you now you're you got so much competition here. We have it all And you guys would also work with non-Italians, right? I mean obviously they wouldn't be made guys but like someone like freddy, uh, I don't believe he's a talent is greek and so, uh, right How how how would like italian guys like you meet the non-Italians just from being on the streets or Meet met each other in prison or how does that work? Right? Well, that's always been uh, you know all the out, you know Different city chicago new york and everything always did business. They've been you know business with the jews They did business with uh, you know black angsters Money money business wise um, but a lot of them if you go back in In history a lot of the dangerous guys that were With the mob They were just like made guys, you know They were just as feared and just had as much respect, but they just never were formally inducted into the family So that exists number one When you're on that level like if if my guys here murdered somebody with me they're going to get treated Sometimes even better than a maid guy that didn't have the balls or the crew or the capability of killing somebody So that's going to exist The other ethnic ethnic groups that we bring in yeah, a lot of it has to do well It's not just prison, but a lot of things with drugs came out now So who are you going to be dealing drugs or like with me marijuana? I dealt with a lot of jamaicans I I had great friendships with them. I was huge in the marijuana business Cocaine you you might be dealing with some columbians. I dealt with columbians So you're going to interact more than the old timers did because of the drug issue um, we also interact with uh spanish gangsters because it was a big number of business we interact with black angsters and You know, you call them black angsters. They didn't really have a uh a name for who they were But they were black angsters We had a we had the black number business and we had a spanish number business when I took over I combined them both but so you're always listen money knows no color You're gonna you're gonna be with Anybody where you can make money with and as times evolve and you start making money You're gonna start making money with any, you know, chinese we did business with chinese Bruno used to have me meet in bosses in the uh, boston area of the chinese Uh, I don't know what they called their, uh, Organizational china town mob or whatever. Yeah, are those triads there official try. Yeah, something like that And i'm telling you they they were just when we went to china town and then we went to their rest I mean, they were treated just like a mafia boss That gets treated. They uh, they had these you know, the underlings they had people, you know, given them all kinds of respect You know, same thing if you went to a restaurant for the italian We went to the restaurant his restaurant and he was treated like a king So they had that so yeah You're gonna interact with all especially, you know as times move down. You're gonna interact With any ethnic Race but uh to be formally inducted. No, that's uh, that wasn't happening Which I think that should have happened as times went up evolved now too because You know, what's wrong with uh, you know, if you if you keep it as an organization You've got to move on with the times and there's less and less of times that are capable In that life. So you got to bring other type of ethnic ethnic groups in So that's why you see it deteriorating. There's no talent out there for the young kids because you know, it's just It doesn't exist Yeah, that's something we've talked about with with other guys. Um, we talked about it with the uh reporter in new england tim white Is that that that? He was out of providence. Yeah, yeah, but just similar. I mean new england that um, they're just the the talent pool is shrinking of Full-blooded italian guys. It's just uh, italians have assimilated and they go to college and they do other things and and so Just they're just not the talent pool is is shrinking Why do you think like like where do you where are the most? hardened Criminals coming up from they're coming up from neighborhoods that are in, you know, poor neighborhoods or back in the day The italians came over from Italy lived in the same neighborhoods that these port is living today So you had a a neighborhood like a stronghold of all Young and it was a neighborhood that they were all together Yeah, how did Meyer Lansky and Lucky Lushan meet each other because they grew up in the same neighborhood the jews and the italians grew in Right, right and and and you're gonna recognize somebody like like you just said he was Jewish. He was italian, but They were the same like when you talk about Meyer Lansky, he was Considered, you know, he had as much respect as A guy like Lucky Luciano or even though Lucky Luciano was the official Boss and he was the official, you know made guy in the family But Meyer Lansky had just as you know, he had good respect. I mean the same so so just as freddy g is now is kind of emerging in the in the global headlines and becoming Quite infamous outside of massachusetts. Let's kind of go back and and You know amp they tell us First of all how you met freddy and his brother ty and what was their reputation? In springfield before they went to prison 12 years ago So freddy and ty were like I didn't know them growing up In my early, you know when I went to prison. So my whole team's up until I was I went to prison at 20 I never knew them I knew their cousin But I never knew them the girl cousin but But anyways, uh, they were regular kids. They came from a family. They worked. They they had nothing to do with crime They didn't have no Affiliation with organized crime their uncle owned a jewelry store freddy used to work there And there was no affiliation with Them an organized crime ty went to prison We both went at the young age. I think he was 18. I was 20 And 1989 And then night, you know 1990 We got stuck in the same Uh, conquered state prison and his family told him I was there He came up to my window and he I had a cell that Outlooked the yard. So if you were going to the uh The um to go eat That's the rep to chow haw When you left he could come up to my window So he knocked on my window and that's how we introduced himself and that's how we at first met Officially me and ty And then we just started hanging out there. We started working out together and it was kind of funny because he was just like a He he was just like nothing to do with crime. I mean, he was a wild crazy kid. Don't get me wrong. He was a he was um, uh, just like a young tough kid But he it wasn't criminal. He was in there for getting into a fight and shooting a machine gun And you know, he was a you know, just a young wild kid that used to fight but nothing to do with money When we got in there of me and him, you know, we had I had big plans now because I was learning From the older guys who were in serious state prison. So And we never considered it serious. I mean, we were fucking around and having a blast in there But I had big aspirations when I got out about, you know, I wanted to get in the marijuana This I wanted to do this. I was I knew gangsters kind gangsters. So ty liked the way I was thinking it Now again, we were always in trouble in there And we got warned by the uh administration Next time either want to use getting trouble. You're going to the uh, we're shipping it out. We're sending you to the max so we we're fucking around one day in our unit and uh Something happened and he ended up beating up the spanish kid and They shipped him out to a wall pole made a serious uh Super you know, it's just a maximum security prison guys were getting killed there all the time in the 70s early 80s um And it was a dangerous place And like I said, it was a uh a place where it wasn't Dominated by blacks or spanish. There was equally the same whites I think had more whites there than there was black in spanish. I mean, it was a A white dominated dangerous place a lot of itines a lot of irish So he got sent there And something happened with a disrespect by the guard and he hurt the guard will baddie beat him up And then they beat him up and then he did he was I got out in february of 91 He was supposed to get out in march of 91 instead. He didn't get out until 95 They kept him in the hole for four years Because he really hurt the guard baddie the guard had a retire after the beating he gave him So, uh I never seen him again on the street. I mean we used to talk Uh, well, you know, they give him full calls once in a while, but I never saw him until he got out on the streets I think it was in 90 and then 95 96 and then you met freddy you met freddy through him in 95 97 yeah, so I No, no, I met freddy freddy used to come and visit him You know freddy tides family used to come up and visit him and my family used to come up and I'm visits We'd all be together and that's how I met freddy. That's you know and freddy was wasn't a criminal. I mean freddy did like Dumb criminal stuff like credit card stuff and you know at his uncle's jewelry store. He would take the credit card numbers and and and and You know do that them type of scams. He had nothing to do with street crimes even his whole life freddy wasn't a Nothing to do with organized crime type crimes. He wasn't nothing to do that Growing up the whole time. I mean he freddy was more of into rob. We robbed hijacked trucks. He was down for that robbing people. He was down for that, you know Robin drug dealers. He was down for that But uh, he didn't have nothing going on with the street crimes, you know until later on when he was around me I put him with with stuff like that, but freddy I met in prison and The stories that we had In prison I mean it was like you would have thought that we were in the best place in the world I'm when we just had so he so he heard all these stories and you know, he liked them and and So when I got out, I hooked up with freddy and me and him started hanging around Little by little we started, you know, I did so many things when I'm like Like I said, we robbed trucks. We we sold some cocaine um, so them Let me stop you one second Did you have to put him on record with albruno as someone that you were vouching for? Absolutely not in my life. I never put no not one person on record In the mafia ever never I never have done it never So did but put me on record, but I never put anybody on record But were the with a higher up, you know shot callers in the springfield mob regime in the mid 90s Were they Taking notice. I mean obviously they were taking notice of you, but were they taking notice of freddy and ty? No, because freddy and ty were were nothing they were I mean They weren't they It's like listen freddy freddy and ty were My friends right and I did stuff with them. They were low low low Well, first of all, ty was in jail till 96. Okay, right? and So so there's nothing there and then freddy, you know He worked at it a little freddy worked at a legitimate job for his uncle. He had a wife He had a kid And his wife didn't never wanted him with me freddy never went out. I was out every night freddy stayed home with his wife You know, uh freddy had a kid freddy was living with his wife You know, I went to his wedding and we were close like that freddy wasn't a criminal You know, I mean we all know the story. I mean when when I met him he was working for his Uncle and before that he was a prison guard at in our area. So it's not like He was a criminal. He was the furthest thing from a criminal I mean, he's not him. It wasn't the furthest thing from a criminal He was the furthest thing from an organized crime criminal like what we were doing So, you know, he was just a you know a ballsy kid That was you know a ballsy kid, you know when I say ballsy I We are the same. We're all crazy when I there's a lot of crazy kids But we're like something wrong with us crazy. So he was like that and He never did anything, you know, like I said, we hijacked drugs freddy was good at getting cocaine and Say he got we got a kilo of coke freddy would make five kilos of coke out of it I mean, that's that's how we would rob people we give people like Mostly garbage and you know and charge them a kilo price. So he did that Um, we we uh, if it was something that with a fight, he was right there like if I was out somewhere and there was Anything with a fight? Yes. He was right there. He was he was violent But I mean he never shot anybody never killed anybody never did any of that And then he ended up getting in trouble himself In 1995, I think it was around then 96 he got in trouble robbing a A truck with computers and he got indicted for that So he went to prison. So there was no presence of freddy in the underworld or amongst Organized crime criminals now you got to figure ty went to jail till 96 and he got out. So he's irrelevant freddy was legitimate, you know, like I said, he had a kid then he had another kid And his wife used to was all over him. I don't want you with an engineer a lot of stay away from the little hoodlum So he could never get out of the house at night And so so he was a daytime Thief type criminal, you know, so he's not getting noticed by no No gangster no nothing none of that Ty gets out of jail in 96 He starts getting involved with the marijuana. He lasted I think a year on the streets. Boom. He was getting marijuana from Arizona And then he was getting a chip. So one day the dogs smelled or whatever they went You know, they set up a sting and when the marijuana went to his house, they arrested him He got four years for that So ty is irrelevant totally nothing to do with organized crime because He was in jail till 96. He got out till 97. He went back in jail for four more years and didn't get out till 2001 See, I'm leading up to 2001. That's what that's when they started becoming relevant So then freddy gets goes to jail in like 96 He goes to jail for four years. He doesn't come out until 2001 So in the underworld in the organized crime circles, they're not even like Fucking a name that's even mentioned besides being friends with me and being in my crew You know, like the guys that I hung around with They know who freddy and ty is My circle of guys, but other than that You know, they don't know much about them. Like that's what I'm trying to tell you that Nothing at a certain point him and you know as tensions are rising between New York and al Bruno who had taken over from Frankie skyball and was a bit of a polarizing figure and You're kind of on one side of the the fence and even though al Bruno was Kind of a mentor of yours There there there are some issues there as the 2000s Come and at some point and I want you to expand on this at some point Bruno Gets into a physical altercation with freddy No, no, but I but that comes later. So yeah, so 2001 freddy gets out of prison first and he starts coming around me and But doing nothing at first his brother gets on what what got the ball rolling with freddy freddy was like a laid back Like laid back dude, you know, if he had a certain amount of money He wasn't like he was okay with it. He didn't you know like He didn't have that I don't know if it was greed, but he didn't have that mindset to say I want to make A million dollars a year mindset. He was just if you gave him some Clumps, he was happy with it and he was just you know, he was a ball buster. He was okay with it Now come tie tie was in jail his whole life since he's been 17 years old So he comes out of jail at In uh, 2001 he was in jail since 89 except for one year And he was and he beat up another guard when he was doing the four years from 97 to 01 So now he's he did like Seven years in the hole that does a lot to your mindset and and and he's a paranoid schizophrenic to begin with So imagine sitting in a fucking hole for like seven years I mean, you know, I mean so he comes out and I used to have him I used to have dinners at my house every Saturday night. I used to have him over I used to have his father over I used to have like 15 20 guys in my house Saturday night So when he got they when they got out of jail They were come over my house Saturday and he was just getting out Okay When tie got out He was just his whole thing was he felt they were Old something him a you know him especially that these guys that were out here not me because that was their friend But and I and they knew me We dumbed things together that proved to each other that we would take someone's life if we had to So but he said he knew these other guys that were made a lot of money They weren't they shouldn't they didn't deserve that because this he went to jail Did some serious dangerous things lived on it lived a life that was Pretty horrible and now these guys are out never did a day in jail making all this money and they get treated with respect So tide came out would like that I'm gonna rob these type of guys and he did he started robbing them For major amounts of marijuana small amounts of marijuana cocaine whatever he could rob them for he didn't and he made punks out of them He made punk out of the kid's epimansi He made a punk out of him And he robbed his cousin for a hundred and son thousand worth of weed So he was making punks out of guys that thought they were gangsters And I had nothing to do with this and that's you know, that's a lot of shit that was going on because you know people want to say like Because they were my friends that I was putting up to it or I was getting a piece No, these guys came out of jail. Ty did ready was more like laid back Hungry they were broke. They had no money. So They were robbing everybody. I didn't you know, I didn't care what they were doing Go ahead rob them Just don't rob any of my guys that I'm selling weed and don't rob You know and don't cause any problems for me But go ahead if you've got a guy that's telling coke rob them and I would never take up think about this I'm a millionaire already multi-millionaire. Am I going to take a piece of them? Money the kid they're coming out of jail broke a rob a guy for a hundred thousand You think I'm going to say give me 10 or give me five or give me half No, but I'll tell you they gave Ronald 5000 out of it. Okay. So that's how they came out of prison in 01 So they start kicking they're start kicking up to big L No, no, no, I just gave an example. They gave 5000. No, they never kicked up shit nobody Yeah, no, no nothing So when when does Al put his hands on tie? So what happens now is Ty gets out and uh, Ty starts dating this girl and he disappears. He's he's living the family life. He's into construction and He's got nothing to do with me or the mob or anybody his brother I mean he's he's dating this girl They happen to be a girl that I used to date but he started dating enough because I you know I had nothing to do with her anymore And uh, they they clicked up and they were starting the date and They were you know together so six months go by and Ty is pretty much a worker And he's doing construction And that's it me and freddy now freddy and here's another one freddy got out freddy met some serious guys in prison That murdered guys and this and that so you could tell freddy Like that freddy was the type that wanted to be known as a A serial murderer never mind just a murderer. He liked that You know, he liked them stories. Like I said, well me and ty were in prison at a young age freddy liked The stories that he was hearing from us. Yeah, we we called the guy into the Basement and the with the showers were and we we almost killed them down there and this and that and then ty I used to torque ty and eric freddy got a kick up out of all the stories So when he went into the prison and he got out 101 He was around guys that were serious boston gangsters and wister and you know, you know So he met a lot of guys and freddy really liked that. He liked the fact that You know, he could he liked the stories when they told him what this guy killed three people or not so when freddy got out He was uh, I could go on so many different stories But the the thing is he started he was around me more I brought him around me more at the same time bruno's taking over his boss bruno gets promoted at boss in 2001 um When he does i'm around bruno Uh, i'm one of his guys that he's proposing um I'm all over the place now. I got a nightclub in Connecticut the biggest one. I got half a dozen restaurants. I got other All kinds of businesses joker poker businesses. I got everything. They don't have nothing ty doesn't freddy doesn't have none ty doesn't have none They were in prison So i'm putting them with guys that I know Like here, this is this guy. He's in the weed business do business with him I was setting them up so they could make money. I was giving them a piece of Some of my legitimate business so they can make money. So I was helping them out how how I could so and ty ends up coming back around And at the time there was a beef that happened victor bruno Is is really not a nice kid. That's our son Yeah, he's not he's he's always been a just a bad apple and uh Extremely jealous type of a person And so he was always jealous of me He was always jealous of if I had a girlfriend if I had a Group of my cool guys He was jealous that I used to make tons of money and and he was always like that. So freddy and him were friends also So when freddy got out in 2001 This is like, you know, two months later You know right around 2000 and now now we're into 2002. Let's say freddy had a guy out of the boston area that was uh not cancer well respected They were doing knock-off wall boxes Couldn't tell if it were fake freddy was getting him like in under the pop it he could I thousand four thousand. I mean you couldn't tell if they were fake So here's the victor now freddy ain't got two nickels to look good I'm not a president he's broke worth it for his uncle. He gives one to victor bruno victor bruno Takes the watch And freddy says give me 3500 So that's a score because the watch is worth so much more, but it's a fake so it's really not worth it But still you nobody knows so victor takes the watch. He says go ahead take it And take it for the weekend victor comes back and says he was at a ballet that uh watch got stolen So now freddy's got nothing no money. He's got to pay the guy the 1500 The 2000 something like that so he tells victor Victor I have to pay this guy can he at least give me the 2000 That I got to pay him Which is come on he gave him the watch What do you know you lost it now? What do you want me to do like that's your fault that you got stolen so victor pays the 2002 freddy it was funny because we were at italian coffee shop in uh their springfield and freddy owed me money So when victor gave him the money under the table freddy gave it to me under the table So and victor said he's probably thinking Whatever he's thinking I could give a fuck less but you know, he you know, it was just funny the way I transpired So now victor goes to his father and tells him What happened and he explains it freddy tried to sell me a knockoff Rolex It got stolen and he made me you know, anthony, you know, it's anthony's friend and you know, I had to pay him the 2000 So bruno got enraged over that he said first of all, you know why bruno got mad because he had no part of the scheme number one Okay, number two now his son had to pay back for something Because you know, he's thinking like why did my son have to pay that back? I'm the boss that he should have just washed it off. So number two. He's mad at that So we're he beeps me on my beeper and he says where are you? I said I'm down at the club He says he just happened to be there. He said me too now He was out somewhere. It was in a limousine and he had too much to drink. He comes out of the club Ty, we just came back from a restaurant. Ty's in the car next to me I'm in my car And bruno comes yelling out Your your friend freddy's a scumbag your friend freddy's a piece of shit He robbed my son and I'm gonna fucking and ty hears this and he says don't call my brother a scumbag My brother's not a scumbag. He says yes, he is the scumbag goes up to the car Boom gives him a couple cracks. You're a piece of shit too. Now. I know ty ties not ties not put together Uh, the right way, okay, he's a delusional paranoid Schizophrenic type personality and he's a fucking ballsy. He's a dangerous guy So I me knowing this I'm figuring that ties might get out of the car and kill bruno because he's younger and in better shape And I'm also in a put in a bad position Because I'm a proposed guy. I'm not made at the time, but let's just say ty beats him up and I don't help They're gonna say well, what the fuck they do don't know Maybe I could get killed over that. So that's how ty ended up getting slapped around by uh, like by bruno You know, was victor a made guy at that point the son never got me. Oh, he never okay No, no victor was never considered. He was like Oh my god, he was the furthest thing from a made guy that you could ever think of This this is really this has been an amazing Uh conversation and I want to tell our audience that I want to promise our audience That we will bring Benji back Yeah, uh, anthony back very very soon Um, maybe even next week. We'll we'll see how it works to um To flesh this out a little bit more. We're just kind of running up against time It's a master class and but this is this is great. Yeah And I think we really got some perspective on on the geus brothers and freddie Just to give people um another Little nuggets of information that maybe you don't know and we can get more into this in a in a second interview that eventually tensions boiled over between anthony and his guys and big al bruno Where big al bruno Got on the outs with the new york guys And the new york guys the the boss of the genovase crime family even though Al was 30 years older than anthony They wanted to put Their trust in anthony anthony had proven to be not just A tough guy But was an earner and we know that that's not the easiest combo combination in that in that world They recognized that and they wanted to you know, for you know, in essence replace Al with anthony and there were some other issues with a guy named felix Trangisi who had gotten his hands on a FBI document that alleged or it seemed to allege that Bruno was was talking out of school to some FBI agents And was waving that around in new york Word gets filtered back That bruno's got to go And again, we'll we'll devote a whole episode to this But al bruno was assassinated at his social club november 23rd 19 or sorry november 23rd 2003 And anthony was involved in that conspiracy and then eventually replaced Al bruno, but the al bruno murder there hasn't been a ton of very high-profile mob murders in the last 20 years And this was this is at the top of the list in terms and not just in his part of the country I mean in america the the big al bruno murder from november of 03 is definitely one of the I dare I say highlights of of the mob in the 2000s and I want to have anthony back on to talk more about that Yeah, another thing I want to and the g's and the just so people to know freddy and tai gs Are doing life in prison Right now because of their participation in the bruno murder another one of my favorite Moments when we talked to anthony the first time and people can go back and listen to that episode too, but Um, it's actually it's a non sequitur has nothing to do with what you just talked about, but I loved it when we asked anthony Uh, what did you think when you first heard that whitey bulger was killed and anthony said they said They told me whitey bulger was killed. I said who gives a fuck I don't know what you remember they're telling me for It's the truth is like what they're calling me up and saying hey, here what happened to whitey bulger just got killed I go who gives a fuck Right, right. I remember that was great. That was great, but anthony. This was great. I mean really this Your interviews have been maybe my two favorite that we've done In three years. I want to do more stuff Collaborations between og pod and and anthony aralata and the brand that you're going to be building Let anybody you know, why don't you let our listeners know our audience know where they can find you anything you want to promote And then again, we'll keep up this this You know this line of of entertainment or content where we're kind of cross pollinating Yeah, definitely instagram is my name anthony aralata a r i l o t t a same thing with facebook Um, I have a lot of new stuff that's going to be coming out. Um that i'm in talks with now that's going to be Really coming out more and more Like uh, we were talking before there's going to be a big um podcast it's going to be like, you know an audio but it's going to be all about It's going to go into detail about the springfield Connecticut, you know all about the era Our era of the mafia and it's going to be detailed It's uh the prosecutor on the case that handled the case That was the leoness version of the modern mafia Prosecutors is putting it together. He's with box studios and vehicle productions and you know, he's with cnn and msmc So it's going to be really well done. It's coming out first week of october and then uh the book that My friend joe bradley was the is the author that is um The rough draft will be completed in november and then it's being Right now it's being um passed around to publishers. So a lot of good stuff coming out and uh, so you'll be hearing a lot more In their future. I mean, i'm telling you. I know anthony and i talked about it a couple years ago I just didn't have the time or the financial capabilities to write his book But if I had been given that opportunity I man I would have loved To sit down with anthony and and sketch out his whole life story because it's it's truly amazing There are so many guys in this world that They live an amazing life compared to the regular joe or jane citizen, but it's it's very um Run of the mill for that for that life and anthony No matter what life you're talking about has not lived a run of the mill existence and has really, uh ambitious and charismatic and like we said someone that was I'll do respect anthony a killer And someone that was a big earner and you could go very far especially back in the 90s and 2000s you could go very far Uh with those two attributes and anthony became a boss like I said 2003 in his early 30s and and led that regime until the late 2000s I could see a tv show. Yeah about springfield because it's a little different than you know, it's it's um east coast which hollywood likes but yet not new york and it's kind of that sweet but it still has a new york time Of course, right, right, which which they would they would like and so because there's another thing We can talk about with anthony the next time he comes on is all the trips he was taking in new york Yeah, all the business he was doing with the new york guys to get into their good crazy and and boston Oh my god, we can be talking for Weeks at a time hours at a time and their stories will never end but Listen, everybody says smaller city springfield. It's a two-hour ride to new york city I mean, so when you think about it if the mafia The biggest the five families exist in new york. It's a two-hour ride. What is that? I mean a two-hour ride. I mean most of the mafia guys the mafia boss don't even live in new york You know, it's like in new york jersey They live, you know, I mean, so it's like and sky you've been covering our area for a long time And you know, we don't get what my thing is is I always push this role play this real quick I know you guys gotta go but Western math, it's the same thing. It's mafia. It's mopped up and there was some serious guys Not only when I say what's your math connecticut and connecticut doesn't get justice There was some not or billy grasso. I put him up against any new york boss. There was Do research on billy grasso. Why did tropiano and all those? Uh, you know, nicky bianco came up from the columbos He was I mean, there was some notorious gangsters and nobody gives them nobody gives them play because Massachusetts connecticut new york, where you going the same thing in detroit, uh, anthony I mean just watch the movie the irishman You know the 200 million dollar netflix movie that you think they would have done their research on they got deniro pacino You know everybody and their brother and they're presenting The most powerful mobster to ever walk out of detroit Tony jackaloni and they're portraying him in that movie as he's some type of waterboy or or some type of lackey And it's like just because it's detroit just because it's springfield doesn't mean it's not You know as real as cancer and I know the jackaloni family was very offended by that portrayal Of tony jack in in the movie as some type of like He was there to just open doors for for tony provenzano And in reality it was it was the exact opposite tony jack was calling calling the shots and tony pro was following Right, so I mean it's the same thing you know the history So you you kind of know like you know based on what you cover, you know with the big black mafia organizations and similar italian organizations in your area and um, you know like You know people will say the same thing. You must you must hear this a lot like oh detroit detroit wasn't shit Right because they're detroit. Yeah go to detroit and you know what say that to someone About new york No, but this place probably say fuck those idiots in new york, you know what i'm saying It's like you know It don't matter where you're from like i i'm proud of where i'm from I think our gangsters are the best and and i'm telling the story about Our area because I think there was a lot of notorious and let's just go like this Let's talk about money. You know, that's what you should focus on more. Let's talk about money There's how many how many guys you know in new york wise guys are broke They ain't got two nickels together not anybody up here. Everyone was a multimillionaire. Yeah multi multi Same same in detroit our mob bosses didn't die Uh gangster rich that they died fortune 500 rich. I mean jack toko Who was the godfather for for 35 years died in 2014? And I believe that you know, he was worth hundreds of millions of dollars That's and i'm not taking any listen new york is new york I mean, it's tough living in new york with with five families one in new jersey and everyone running around I mean, it's like, you know, it's it's just it's insane. You're always in competition You know, someone's always with somebody or you can't talk to him because he was me and i'm doing business with them And you remember, so it's just like so crazy. I get that But uh, that's why I like if you ask me I like I think our area is the best Well, well, definitely, I mean we're gonna have anthion back soon But we'll definitely have him on when the podcast and the book come out For him to promote it. I can't wait to get my hands on that manuscript For his book by mr. Bradley. I'm very eager to read it because like I said, I mean, I I don't know if there've been more intriguing Uh suspenseful compelling mob stories of the last 20 years More than than anthion are a lot. So anthion, thank you so much for joining us We we can't tell you how much we appreciate you enough Yeah, thank you anthion and I'll yeah for our audience make sure uh, you follow anthony on social media, but also our You know subscribe to our YouTube channel, please and we're also on instagram twitter and facebook and and we follow anthony he follows us So, uh, I encourage everyone to look at his stuff and please subscribe to ours as well So we appreciate you uh here at the og podcast. We appreciate the audience We're going to keep on giving you that great true crime content with a unique perspective unique insight from people like anthony aralata, please like subscribe follow um Everything original gangsters podcast. Yeah, you can get it. Uh, obviously wherever podcasts are consumed check us up on youtube We'll be back next week scott bernstein for jimmy buchelato and then agusta. We are out