 This is the OGM call on Thursday, June 8th, 2023. We got no choice because we're mixed into humans. Is that it? I can say no more. Okay. Any more on the robots would come find you to recruit you to their side, maybe. Funny, Eric. Yeah. Greetings all. Greetings. Hello, Janet. Hello, Stacy. Hello, Jerry, Doug, Eric, Doug and Gil. I have a... Oh, Mike Nelson as well. I have a friend from Portland, Janet Undru, as joining us to say hi. Hi, Janet. How's that, Portland? Yeah, hi. Yeah, Portland's okay today. It's gorgeous today. It feels pretty good. Yeah. Better Portland than New York, huh? Man. Oh, yeah. The East Coast is getting a taste of... We're gonna go share them. Yeah, the East Coast is getting a taste of what we had two summers ago. Two summers ago. Yeah, two summers ago. That was nasty. Philadelphia's worst. Really? You guys ever yellow? I've never seen such yellow. Like, we were yellow. Yellow, orange, it's all kinds of fun. So you know when the Edvard Munch, the famous painting, The Screen, you know how the sky is kind of orange and all that? Mark, you're doing a very good representation of it. Do you know why the sky is orange? Krakatoa. Bing. All the blue's been scattered out by the smaller atoms. No, no, no, it's not why is the sky blue. Krakatoa had erupted beforehand and for like a year and a half, two years, skies all around the world were kind of orangey. But that's just the blue was missing. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, whatever was happening for interference of Ash Cloud, et cetera, of course. Well, we had the geologic answer and he had the physics answer. Exactly. The year without the summer, it's a climate answer. Oh, no, that was 1814. That was Chamboa. That was an even bigger volcano. You need to be careful when talking to a geologist and challenging him on these things. And what it's worth on climate without Chamboa. Sorry, there was two of you talking at the same time. Mike then Ken. Yeah, I was saying I also worked with Al Gore on climate. So we had all the people talking about what could cause global warming and what might cause global cooling. There is that, go ahead, Ken. And I said, for what it's worth, Krakatoa is west of Java, not east of Java. Thanks to a movie, everybody thinks it's in the wrong place. Oh, thank God I hadn't had that misconception placed in my head. Cool, Eric, there you go. There you go. The version of Java before Jakarta sank. Jakarta's still sinking. And relocating. Really? Everyone discovered the airnow.gov website. It's the seventh most popular website today. Yeah, you used it a lot when we were on fire here a couple of years ago. Really extraordinary, particularly the maps. You can see the whole region. Yep, yep. So does anybody think that this is gonna have any effect on people's perception about climate change? Sure. People meaning the mass. I got a yes and a no. Well, the problem is the people who are most opposed aren't living on the East Coast. Well, in the 30s, the dust bowl reaching Washington, D.C. was some of what drove the policy change around agriculture and soil conservation in the United States. It was like congressmen having to walk out into clouds of dust. It wasn't just in Nebraska. Same thing with London smog. Basically, the air became unbreathable and catalyzed a bunch of regs. Did anybody see the map of what's on fire in Canada? It's quite extraordinary. If you haven't seen it, I'll see if I can pull it up. Three different places. Yeah. Nova Scotia is not known for forest fires. Yeah. I have one question. Is there a debate over whether this is climate driven or if there are other factors at work here? Stacey, what's your question? Mike, it's sort of like a statement question. I haven't heard anything about efforts like as far as putting out the fires. Like usually like in California, I would hear constant updates about what's happening, you know, how they're getting ahead of it. I haven't heard one word. No, there's been a lot of, on the East Coast, there's been a lot about it. American forest fire fighters coming into Nova Scotia, but some of the parts further west are just so remote and there's not much to be done. Judy, hi Judy. There's a map of the fires in Canada. Red is out of control, yellow is being held and blue is under control. That is insane. I would imagine that Nova Scotia doesn't have quite the firefighting infrastructure in California. Yeah, luckily they got a lot of rain so you can see that map that it's more or less out. Well, the reason I ask is that, so I'm in New York and the conversation is very much about the color of the sky and the air quality and staying safe. But if you're not focused on the fire and putting it out, then you're not focused on the cause of the fire. So I think it's a mistake. I mean, I think there's some sort of a disconnect in the coverage and I have this morning, I put on like every news that I put on BBC, I put on Fox, Fox actually had the best coverage for this sort of thing. Fox local or Fox national? It was national. Good for them. I mean, when I say the best, I mean, keep in mind, they're trying to stay away from so many other stories and it didn't stay the best for long, but at least they were talking about it. Yeah. Well, that's good. I'm glad your standards have been lowered sufficiently where they could perform above them. I love that. And Stacey, wildfires are really controversial. Forest management is controversial. All these things are crazy making. I was just looking at an article this morning on an op-ed in the New York Times that basically says they're just too, I'm paraphrasing badly. There are too many idiots who are starting forest fires. And it turns out that usually it's lightning strikes and stuff like that. But in the US, 80% of our forest fires are man-made, human-caused. Getting, because we have more idiots per capita. The big, what was it called? I'm forgetting the name of the fire in our West was caused by a guy and his son who went shooting in a dry forest. And so, yeah. And then what you do with forests to keep them from becoming tinderboxes, never mind climate change, is a controversial issue already. And then once you factor in the drying of climates and all that kind of stuff, I'm marveling that in the spring, in the early spring, Alberta, Canada was on fire. We were getting some wisps of smoke here on the Pacific Northwest because the Alberta was really suffering. And now it's sort of Quebec and Nova Scotia and parts East. And why are the fires so high on the continent is part of my question. It's like, what crazy thing happened that Canada is ablaze? Well, everything, heat is moving north. Wine districts are moving north. Fire districts are moving north. That's part of it. Is it because hot air rises and north is up? It was just a very dry, dry, dry spring. I'm just trying to say it didn't rake their forest floors. Yeah, that's it. That's it. And part of the controversy is about fire suppression as a driver of massive fire. Exactly. So Stacey, when you try to put out every fire, what you get is massive conflagrations you can't put out, apparently. And this is, I am totally an amateur here, but too much fire suppression actually is a problem. And then I was reading two days ago about silvo forestry, which is like what we do with cattle is we clear a bunch of ground and we graze them on grass. The really healthy thing to do is actually to mix trees in and all other kinds of plants. And then cattle and goats and whoever else basically eat down all the shrubbery so they're not as liable to catch fire. And the cattle really like the shade and a whole bunch of other good things happen. There's carbon capture from the trees. Like the blend of cattle and trees is lovely. Yeah, silviculture and agroforestry and polyculture in general, good thing. Thumbs up for that. Grace and cattle and forest is not gonna work for very remote forests because you can't move the cattle. What really happened is that Smoky the Bear woke up out of hibernation and looked at the world situation and saw things were so bad. He just went back to sleep and that's why we're having all these fires. I'd like to have that clarified, thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. I think we're underestimating the disruption so they're already underway because of the strengthage of the Antarctic ice. So the Gulf Stream has already slowed down. The Jet Stream is disturbed. Which means that better patterns are floating, right? Because you don't have the trade winds that kept everything in a nice place before. So this is coming on much faster than we would have ever expected because I keep saying we don't get, we can't process what is exponential change. Whatever you looked at today is gonna be doubled tomorrow. By far the most interesting hearing I helped Al Gore organized when he was a senator was called Climate Surprises. We did over 30 hearings in four years but this was the one that really, really brought it home and it was all the non-linear effects. Is that a link, Mike? Wally Broker who's famous for discovering the conveyor belt system of ocean currents that it drives the Gulf Stream but it also drives flows all around the world. And that's really what's changing right now but he walked through all these things that could happen. If you see more melting of the Greenland ice sheet that changes the salinity of the North Atlantic that changes the conveyor belt. And then there were surprises with the spread of malaria tropical diseases. I mean, there's all these little third order things like the drier temperatures in the Southwest that have meant that the trees are under stress. So these Japanese beetles that showed up have easy pickings because the trees can't defend themselves because they're under so much stress. And then you end up with dead trees that of course light up in a forest fire. We have a lot of those things. The big surprise though was that the Bush administration tried to censor the testimony of James Hansen who was one of the top 10 climate researchers in the planet and OMB, the Office of Management and Budget actually tried to rewrite some sentences in his testimony. And it wasn't like they added a paragraph saying, other scientists say this, they actually put it in first person. So he was having to say, I must stress that everything I've said might be wrong. I mean, it was crazy. And Al Gore just had a field day and we had five cameras live. It was really quite an event. Mike, I was one of Al Gore's volunteers in the early 2000s going around doing, his climate science presentation in various places. Yeah. Yeah, he's still doing that. He's trained hundreds of thousands of people to do that. And he's worked a lot with the churches, weaving it into saving God's creation. Yep. But I was so surprised, Mike, when I joined Al Gore's climate reality training camp for the months or six weeks back or so and got some certified knowledge about climate reality. But he didn't say one word about nature-based solutions. I know. You mentioned that in the earlier call. Yeah, I was surprised. I was just, yeah. But it's not- That's another project for you, Klaus. Yeah, no, no, it's underway. We actually have a meeting this afternoon and I'm meeting with the leadership the next couple of weeks from now. They're planning a big event in September, so that they're really crashing into the farm bill. So that's good to see, but it was just an astounding blind spot. Well, some of it is that the science is a little more controversial. I mean, Woody Harrelson did not really help things. Does Woody Harrelson ever really help things? Well, he made a few good movies. But his documentary, I mean, as far as raising consciousness and getting farmers to understand that how they treat their fields might have impact on the global environment, that was helpful. But there were lots of claims and things in there that are hard to verify. And Mike, you were just describing how, just one sec, please. Mike, you were just describing how Al Gore tried to sort of go the religious route and say, hey, guarding God's creation. I was present for a Gore talk when the first sentence out of his mouth practically was, I don't understand how business doesn't understand or how I can't convince business that going green is the biggest business opportunity since electrification. I don't get it. And Stacey's asking us in the chat, the average unconscious person isn't maybe connecting climate change and these fires and other sorts of things. How the hell do we make connections and wake people up to create a difference, to go do something? I mean, really it's, there's something that's sort of cultish and tribal about the defense mechanisms that are preventing the conversation. And we need to slide past those things or melt through them or something like that because those are very good defense mechanisms. They're very powerful somehow. One of Al Gore's favorite lines was, denial is just not a river in Egypt. Yeah. And he was quoting dire straights as well. Right, exactly. Go ahead, Mike. And let's move back toward like a slightly guided conversation because right now we're in major popcorn mode and we're not even doing check-ins. So let's see how far this goes and then maybe start a check-in round. Yeah, Bill does make the point that Gore spent a year in divinity school after Vietnam. He actually, he is actually perfectly trained. He did some journalism. He did divinity. He did government at Harvard. I mean, he was one of the most broadly educated. War correspondent? Well, exactly, war correspondent in Vietnam. Yeah. Just to, I was just gonna add one more thing which is Nelson's first law of politics. When there's a political fight between a small group of people that know exactly what they have to lose and the general public that has a uncertain diffuse understanding of what might happen for them, the small and dedicated people usually win. And that's why the oil industry has rolled over the rest of us. I mean, this may be a corollary to that or a neighbor lemma or something like that. But in a fight, the party with the least to lose often wins because they are willing to sacrifice themselves wholly. Now, that's not true of the oil companies or whatever else here, but it is true of a lot of other fights. And so you have to worry that somebody who shows up who doesn't care what happens as an outcome but is in for the fight that they're very dangerous. You put both of those theories together and you get the U.S. court system today. So fabulous. Sounds like a great set of design principles for a court system. Ah, does anybody know the history of legal systems? Cause I've always been a little confused between Napoleonic law and British, sort of the British non-constitutional government and U.S. law and other sorts of things. And the fact that we have a contentious system of law, adversarial law instead of any kind of beneficial law. I would love for somebody to do that well. So the short answer is British law was mostly common law, which just kind of arose. And a lot of the decisions made were kept in books and records. And then French law slash Napoleonic law is much more statutory with a list of codes and laws that needs to be followed. And the litigiousness is something that really grew here in the U.S. And especially kind of jet-fueled and rocket-fueled when advertising became legal, fueled by a guy by the name of Stephen Brill and also when he also was instrumental in as opposed to law being a learned profession of some kind, turned it into a commoditized business by measuring profits per partner. And then you had big law grew up and then it just became factory law all about money and all the advertisement. And then we've exported the litigiousness to other parts of the world. Did I put the right Brill in the chat, Stuart? I think it is. I think he's the famous Stephen Brill, but I don't know. Yeah, he started off as a journalist. And you compare that to indigenous tribal law, which I looked into a lot when I was studying conflict resolution. It's just so incredibly different. It's much more personal, it's much more communal. It's much more geared to getting the real stories out on the table as opposed to who can tell the better story. So I mean, that's just a little brief overview. Cool. There's one other piece to the law domain. The difference between law and equity, the religious institutions, Judaism, Catholicism, controlled the law that governed the body, actions over the person, what they could and couldn't do. Whereas the sovereign controlled the rules of commerce and regulations and statutes and such. So that split is sort of an interesting difference. Yeah. Thanks, Doug. Eric, do you mind telling us a little bit about Bastiat if you know something to share, but you mentioned him in the chat unless you are away from AFK. All right. So we have run our first 20 minutes rather quickly and this is our first check-in in four or five weeks. Judy is delightful to see you. Thanks for joining us. And we'll let's go run some check-in for a while and during check-in here's our evolved check-in S protocol which is I will step back and not be running the floor at all. If you would like to, if you feel moved to check in, raise your Zoom hand to step into the queue. The Zoom hand looks the same for everybody in gallery view so you can tell who's next. So you should be able to tell when you're next. Perfect. And then before stepping in, take a pause if you will. So one of the comments we've paid attention to over time is our conversations run fast and furious and it would be really nice to have some pauses and the pauses really help our conversation. So the sign that you know what's going on is you've unmuted yourself. Like you raise your hand, you go into the queue. Not many of us are muted right now but when you unmute yourself, you're like, oh good. You know that you're next but you're quiet for a while and then step in and check in. And then please check in only once during the check-in round and when everybody's had a chance to check in then we'll go into general discussion in the mad frenzy that we were just having. No, no, no, in a much more thoughtful way. So we have a queue started. I will step back and off we go. I'll step in since it's quiet. Apologies for being so absent was mostly good personal stuff. My daughter got married May 21st. And so that was a lovely experience but fairly time consuming in preparation more so on her part than mine. As usual, I'm still reflecting on what it is I should be doing and thinking about now in terms of making the best contribution to the world in good ways. And it seems as though what's happening in the short term is really an organizational development role in all of the nonprofits with which I interface because they tend to not pay full attention to the dynamics of being the board of a nonprofit in terms of how we choose to select and hear information how we respond and consider and so forth. So that's kind of what I've been up to for the most part and trying to catch up on the reading because I have just stacks of books. I'm also contemplating at some point though I love Minnesota dearly last year's winter was a killer with a 20 inch snowfall. So I'm contemplating moving south. My daughter's in Houston now at Baylor as a faculty member. And I have a condo in Kansas city where she did her postdoc. And so it could be a transitional move to Kansas city. And then that's the point connecting to Houston as well. So that's kind of round Robin. Thank you, Judith. I never know how many seconds one should take for a contemplation, but it's a loose and individualized protocol. Feel free to second as many seconds as you'd like. Okay. My cycle time is such that, you know, 10 seconds seems like a very long time. But I've got a couple of things going on. One is just intimations of mortality. I think many of you were on the call when I mentioned that my college roommate passed away last month. And six months older than I am died of brain cancer. One of my favorite priests from our church who was two years older just died. And I was hit pretty hard when I saw that George Winston had died. He's 10 years older, but he's been fighting cancer for 10 years. So he got cancer about my age. And on top of that, I'm fighting some of those old people problems like high blood pressure. And now I seem to have macular degeneration, which might be getting worse. I mean, this is not the bad kind that makes you blind, but it's sort of the warning kind that could turn to the bad kind. And it's the pits for somebody who is very active and just likes to think of himself as eternal and unstoppable. So that's sort of the mindset that I've been dealing with. On the more happy note, I'm also to the point where I'm starting to think about how does one structure a semi-retirement and how does one enjoy life? Kathleen and I both love to travel and she's worked so hard for so many years that we think that by the time I'm 65, we're certainly gonna be enjoying a lot more of life. But even that's a little hard. How do you structure that? How do you decide what's the most important thing to do and how do you find purpose when you're not going to the office every day? And these are all really interesting questions. And I see a lot of silly talk about having a fulfilling retirement. I don't see any definitive book or website that really has caught my attention. So any thoughts on how one does this? My parents are still alive. So that's something else that is sort of a purpose in my life, making sure they're doing okay. But I've had to be the executor for two uncles in the last two years. And as of two days ago, I wrapped up the second one. Piece of advice, never volunteer or be coerced into being an executor for anybody. At least unless you're a son or daughter. Thank you. So good segue, thank you, Mike. So I think I share in this group, it was some weeks ago that I had a diagnosis of multiple myeloma. And it really is a life-changing event. In some sense, it's a little bit of whose body is this? Looking at mortality. Thanks, Gil and Doug for both volunteering to have conversations. I will take you up on that. But it's caused a reflection about most everything. And it's, I realized that I went through that cycle of grief, denial, bargaining, anger. And then you kind of come out the other side with the realization that for me, the big one was that so many people use their disability as an identity. I'm gonna repeat that because it's worth saying use their disability as an identity. We see so much of that in the culture. And the realization that, wait a minute, my identity, my life is a lot bigger than whatever disease process I happen to be in. And coming out the other side of that. So engagements include completion of a 12-week program with Meg Wheely about who we choose to be, identity at this point in time in the world. I've been asked to go on the board of Barthana which is Meg's nonprofit which I'm very, very pleased about. I started a year long program about mindfulness and social action led by a woman named Rhonda McGee who's a mindfulness teacher and law professor at the University of San Francisco of many years. That just began. It's being run by the Bari Buddhist Center in Western Massachusetts. And I've got a new book, Percolating, a third edition of the book, Getting to Resolution which will combine some of my recent writing poetry and an update of 20 years world situation that we're in. So that ought to be kind of a fun project. So that's my check-in. It's a pleasure to be with you all today. And also, I mean, a big thing is a whole new appreciation for life and a lot of gratitude just for breathing, just for breathing and the miraculous earth that we live on. I say that with a deep and profound level of reverence. And I wish that more people would wake up to that very, very, very simple fact that we are, we're killing the golden goose. Thank you. Stuart, of course, I wish you the best of luck and the best of health. As a lymphoma survivor, two years now, certainly I've participated in many groups where other people who have leukemia, I know a 13 year old boy and a cousin who knows leukemia right now, two separate people. You can beat this. I wish you the best of luck. To continue a theme, unfortunately, I had a biopsy kind of going in through my nose to a maxillary sinus, took out a growth about the size of two raisins. Apparently the sinus is filled with a growth, could be cancerous, yet another happy, wonderful, wonderful, joyful, happy, happy, joy, joy, life, bump, mortality moments, as I call it. And certainly I feel that I've healed from kind of stress difficulties, but more difficulties. Reading is fundamental and fun, but I'm not participating in the organization and coordination to basically organize protests, kind of taking some time off from work. My toe in the water are these calls and talking to people who are connected to groups that are doing things. And of course, good friends, and just trying to have compassion. Certainly my problems aren't the biggest problems in the world and I did have a number of folks pass away, which kind of triggered my difficulties earlier this year. And yeah, we just know that more folks are going to pass away as we get older. And good luck to everybody, compassion everybody. Bye, check in. Well, I'll start with continuing theme. As some of you know, my wife got diagnosed with multiple myeloma. Nine and a half years ago. And being the geeks that we both are, we were all over the internet researching and the research said, yeah, you got two or three years to go. And her oncologist very quickly said, please stop looking at that stuff because it's all obsolete. You're seeing, report published 70 years after research that started like five or 10 or 15 years before. We're in a completely different story. We asked them how long is it? I don't make projections, but I've got people with me 10 and 20 years. And she's now nine and a half years in and in a partial remission. So that's pretty cool. And the science is advancing very, very rapidly on this that it's quite remarkable. But what I really want to say about that is that the beginning she said, please don't tell people that I'm battling cancer. This is not a battle, it's a dance from her perspective. And she said, please don't invite people to say, oh Jane, I'm so sorry. That's terrible. I'm so sorry to hear that. That just wasn't the mood that she wanted to be in about this. There's a legacy mood in the culture of like cancer is death sentence and it's terrible. And it's far from easy pathway. And Stuart, you're gonna learn a lot about that. We've had some very rugged times in these nine years, but the mood that she's chosen to dance in has been really important to her and to me. And one of the things we decided early on hang on, I'm gonna ask. From Michael and Sean, until Gil comes back, we're doing the S protocol, which is raise your hand to step in the queue, take a pause before you step in. You'll catch the rest of it from here. We're just doing a check in round. Sorry, Gil, go ahead. No, sorry to step out. So what we established as our monitor early on was no premature freak out. There'll be plenty of time to worry about things later, but it's not just dive into worst case and get all upset until we know more. So it was like a gradual pay attention, listen and learn and adapt. So blessings Stuart to you and Mark to you and everybody else who's dealing with disruptions. We have found that mood matters a lot. To my own check in, I guess what I'll say is that I spent three hours, it was Tuesday or Wednesday with the exponential organizations, people, EXO in a webinar of Peter Diamandis from the X Prize. And Salim Ismail from EXO, they've just released a second edition of their book, Exponential Organizations. By the way, it's 99 cents this week on Kindle. And I can send people recording at the webinar if you like, it was quite remarkable and very engrossing and I rarely spend that kind of time on anything. Distilling lean startup and lots of learning from lots of organizations about how to aim at 10X rather than 10% kinds of improvements with remarkable stories in lots of industries and inspiring in a lot of ways, including for me personally, the critical path capital enterprise, the private equity fund for good that I've been trying to build has been on hold for a couple of months. And this has brought me back into that thinking about how to do it in a very different way in a very untraditional, not typical private equity way that can scale and have impact more rapidly. The mantra always in the back of my head is Mondragon in America. And for people that don't know Mondragon, it's a what, 70 year old Spanish cooperative of cooperative 70,000 employees. I think hundreds of enterprises, banks, universities, manufacturing facilities, something remarkable that has not happened here. So I'm entering into an exploration about that. Notable though, and Klaus, this is for you as well as other people, for all the brilliance that was there, it seemed that there was an enormous blindness to biology and ecology. It's mechanistic medicine, mechanistic agriculture, lots of excitement about vertical farming, which has its merits. But I was one of the pioneers of rooftop ag in the United States 50 years ago and I stepped away from it because I felt a deep personal as well as strategic dissatisfaction with growing food without soil. And so I didn't go into that world there in it and there's something strongly missing in the vision and yet some very powerful tools there for us to use. So I'm gonna be exploring that world some. And last thing very briefly, I've opened up a beachhead on Substack, which Doug C. has pioneered for us. And I'm thinking a lot about how to streamline my writing workflow to be more sane for myself and more valuable in the world of what, how to do multi-platform publishing and the like. So I know other people here are interested and I'd love to talk with anybody who's been exploring that path. I am complete for now. So I am thinking of dining as an adventure. I'm 86, I don't feel it most of the time. I notice that most of my friends are dead, which is really hard to take. I'm somewhat mused by the problems with sexuality. But generally slowing things down or whatever that is means everything is seen in a new perspective. And since I've got this project of dealing with climate change and trying to be pretty active with it, it seems to keep me alive and going and not feeling terrible about it. The project is really important. Writing is just terrific because you find out what you think. And I think that's really important. I was kind of hoping today, totally different, that we might talk about Apple's new Vision Pro, which is just an amazing piece of equipment that's gonna have huge and devastating effects. That's it for me. I'd like to take us sort of back into OGM-ish territory a little bit. This has been a really lovely community check-in call, which I really appreciate. And we have a lot of things going on with us in our lives. I'm just going to sort of head back a little bit toward OGM. And I wanna put a sentence in the chat, which I will read out, which is a funny sentence, but means a lot to me. And I would just love later, perhaps, if anybody wants to talk about it, but it goes as follows. Cyborg's practice of keto to garden the big fungus for a better verse designed from trust while developing the precepts and rituals of fubarism. And I will very briefly explain, these are all a series of ideas that have shown up over the last 20 years. Some of you know that right now I'm working on life. What does it mean to be a good cyborg and that we have a cyborg future ahead of us? That us blending well with software is probably one of the paths toward fixing stuff and changing how jobs work and how we all relate to each other and so forth. I'm not clear. It means dawning headsets that block us from one another's presence, but that's a whole conversation for the check-in. Up keto is a coining. It's a blend of upward spiral and I keto. I keto is my sport. Upward spiral was inspired by Paul Crefell who has been on a couple of these calls magically because of interesting things, but he did a short video 20, 30 years ago about how he and his trowel were fixing mending hillsides in central California just by walking around and paying attention to how water works. So up keto is a practice at least in principle. What would it look like if everything you touched were improved by your presence? That is what up keto is meant to be. And then the big fungus is metaphorically the shared memory that I wish we were building. And I'm using big fungus here because mycelium is such a beautiful analogy for knowledge work and rhizomes and all that kind of interconnectivity stuff. And also because farmer ants, leaf cutter ants can't eat leaves. They actually take the leaves into the hive, hand them off to a subset of those ants which mulch them up and have a symbiotic relationship with a fungus. And that fungus metabolizes leaf matter and feeds the hive. So happy fungus, happy hive. And I have felt like a lonely fungus, a lonely ant at the fungus phase for 25 years that I've been feeding my funny little brain file. And so I wish that there were many of us inoculating and feeding a common fungus that would then nourish humanity so that we could solve the problems that we're facing. I would use all these superpowers to design a better verse, which is my cranky comeback to Zuckerberg deciding to rename meta as the metaverse, Facebook as meta, you know, homage of the metaverse, an initiative he appears to have abandoned but which drained billions of dollars out of Facebook. And for me, like the better verse is this space within which we build trust again and we start to solve the world's problems. And in order to build trust we have to design things from trust. So I'm putting in this long statement the notion that if we actually began to understand the hidden architectures of mistrust that litter our environment and keep us from one another and keep us from fixing stuff and then flip things around to design from trust we might actually get someplace. And all of this would lead to a community of practice that would be developing and designing the precepts and rituals of fubarism. And some of you have heard me say talk about fubarism, which is a domain I bought fubarism.com years ago as a joke. Fubar is a placeholder file name for programmers. It goes back to F-U-B-A-R, fucked up beyond all recognition which probably comes out of World War I. You know, somebody would show up and say Sergeant, what's the situation on the ground here? And he says, sir, we're a fubar which is related to snafu also a military acronym similar. And fubarism is just an open question of hey, if you could develop your own religion what would you put in it? Because one of my beliefs is that we need to re-sacralize our relationship to ourselves to one another and to the planet. And I don't mean organized religion by that. I just mean that we need to treat one another and the thing that we live on that keeps us alive as sacred. And if we did so, we would change our behavior radically. We would change so many things if we changed how we see and treat one another and this big rock. So that's the funny sentence. And if anyone's interested when we finish our check-in round I'd be thrilled to know or send me something out of band privately or on the list or anywhere you'd like. But I'm interested in if this is just way too distracting or if this is an interesting stringing together of topics and issues. With that, I am complete. Well, not to step on Jerry's attempt to pivot but I'm going to rest the conversation back to where it's been on mortality and legacy. And I've talked about this in some other conversations and I can't remember if I've talked much about it here, but I've been focused quite a lot on not just my own mortality and I don't know what I missed before this, but I tuned in for Mike's check-in and felt very akin in that I'm at that age where people around me are starting to die. I'm like taking care of one remaining aging parent dealing with some, my wife's grandfather just died. And I remember some of you may remember me like doing OGMs from a big truck driving stuff of his back from North Carolina. And it's had me thinking a lot about proactively engaging both for myself and with other people in the shaping of one's legacy and what you leave behind, particularly with regard to stuff and the knowledge around stuff. And there's like holding on physically and mentally to what you have and trying to keep it the way it is until your lights blink off is a way of thinking about life and dealing with the lack of quite being able to do that. But I'm thinking a lot and talking to people a lot about the idea of really viewing the later parts of life as a transition to something that your knowledge, your stuff, your life, your life, what you have to offer lives beyond. And that quite early on in life, decades before your eyes closed for the last time you're living into that reality and really just trying to work to shape what you're leaving behind, what you're letting go of and making it an adventure as Doug said and a more joyous thing that, my God, what gift you have to offer in not just the mentoring that you can do to people based on what you know where you're actually meeting them and talking to them but kernels of knowledge, areas of knowledge around things that you know about, possessions that you have, collections that you've made and making it possible for other people to find things that maybe you don't even know the significance of that they can weave into larger frameworks like your brain, Jerry. And I had a long talk actually last time I was in the Bay Area with Wendy Hanamura at the Internet Archive and we were connecting about this and I think with the Internet Archive is something that could be a big part of that but I'm really interested in building something and very interested in talking to people who are looking at that transition wanting to engage with it in a positive way. I also think about legacy businesses. Gil, I know you've thought about this and we've talked a little bit about this, people living into the fact that they are going to leave their businesses behind, they don't have an heir and how you make something that lives beyond you that is a beautiful thing and what your digital legacy is. So anyway, lots of stuff there, eager to talk more about it with anybody who'd like to. Thanks. Just a small interjection. It's interesting that the value of this demographic that we are brings up this conversation today. Just a brief observation. I often lament our lack of diversity but this is one case where it's kind of a thing of beauty. Judy, oh, Judy's on the call. I think she's here. If you're talking to us, Judy or muted if you're talking to somebody else, never mind. No, I was talking to you. I was just thinking that while we're reflecting on it specifically as an end of life issue, this is much bigger than that. It's really an all of life issue and somehow if we could shift our energy toward enabling others to perceive the all in life issue of meaning in life and contribution and things like that it would be a powerful movement. It could be a powerful movement. So, hello. I have a friend I speak with. I've known since 1970. We met in junior high school and we get together every Wednesday usually and talk for a couple of hours and his daughter just graduated from college. She went to Paris and she spent her college years during the pandemic and basically she didn't really meet anybody. She stayed in her room. She didn't really see Paris. She's also the girl who said that she'd never seen the Milky Way and I was talking last night. My friend runs a, he's a senior bioscientist and he runs a lab and he's like all the people in the lab who are doing the actual work, the pipetting and everything. They're in their 20s and there's this really fast gulf between us. They're attached to their phones 24 seven. They relate through phones. They don't really talk. They don't interact. Everything is done on their devices and that got me thinking about how many younger people especially relate to each other through devices rather than face-to-face interactions. And there was an article in the New York Times recently about the dissolution of communities where the author actually blamed devices. It used to be you showed up for people but now that everybody has a phone you can just text them and say, oh, I'm sorry, something else has come up and you feel like you're absolved, you don't have to be there. And I really think there's a profound impact of the digital realm on human behavior and human interaction, especially for younger people, there's so much seduction. How many billions of dollars than millions of person hours have gone into figuring out what's the best way to keep people in need of being on their phone all the time. And the world is burning down around us. Literally, Canada is on fire. The northern forests of this continent are on fire and there's a connection there for me. I don't know how to quite make it, but it's like we're not paying attention to the world around us because we're absorbed in this digital realm. And I think there's a really profound need for reconnection between generations along with reconnection to the earth. We have to re-sacralize our connection to the earth to each other, as you just said, and to figure out what is the best use of digital technology in creating a world that works for everybody where children do get to grow up and see the Milky Way. And where if you're attending school in a city that's not your own, you actually do have the opportunity to go out and the pandemic was a special case, but it kills me that this girl spent four years in Paris and didn't really meet anybody or get to see the city. It really makes my heart heavy to think about this that it's happening with so many. So there's a profound, for me, sense of loss and sadness around the way people are no longer attending to the world around them and they're just sucked into devices and they're sucked into the metaverse or the worst verse or whatever verse it is, but it certainly isn't the world that I grew up with. And it may be that our time has passed, that we're turning into a cyborg. I just read James Lovelock's Nova Scene, The Rise of Hyperintelligence and he's talking about the emergence of cyborgs and how they will probably take over from us. And I find it very provocative and his book was actually written, but it's really a scary scenario. And so not one that I easily embrace. So just thought I'd throw it out. Everybody who wants the Nova Scene, I have a copy, I can email it to you just ping me and I'll be glad to give it to you. It's a short book and it's a really interesting read. So that's all the stuff that's just been brought up for me in this conversation. I really feel like we should be taking some time to sense into how do we wanna relate to each other and how can we relate to our younger people, especially those of us who are older now? I realize I'm kind of aging out. My cohort is mostly folks over 50 and I need to spend more time getting to know younger people and hopefully making some kind of difference there. So thank you for listening. Yeah, that really makes me think that we are just amazingly privileged to live in what has to be the most incredible time for humanity. I mean, when I was born in 1949, thinking what happened along the way in terms of, I mean, there were 2.4 billion people on the planet when I was born, then it was 3 billion in 1960 and 6 billion in 2000. Now we're at 8 billion and we wanna get to, and I actually already at 8.1 or so, we wanna get to 8.6 by 2030, the technology raising, but I think while I was working and I think that's probably true for most of us in order to make a living and accumulate enough money to have a responsible retirement and all of that stuff, you really didn't have a lot of time to focus on the bigger picture issues there. You had to be really focused on your skillset and your environment and all of that. And I retired in just about 10 years ago and I've done nothing but study since and the privilege of being able to take courses at Columbia and MIT and Duke and Johns Hopkins, just go on Coursera or edX and take the most incredible courses really at very qualified institutions. I mean, it just opens up like another dimension, right? I mean, there's a spiritual dimension that we can float into. And you have the collective wisdom of our species at your fingertips, right? I mean, you can read Plato or you can read the Bible and interpretations of the Bible or a told story and so on. So the accumulated wisdom of our species is for you to tap into now. And so those things are just absolutely incredible but then you're also faced with your own mortality, right? I mean, there's an endpoint here somewhere and my son is 33 so we have these conversations saying, you know, I'm on the downside of life, you know? And actually this goes faster, you know? So you go up and changing from 10 to 15 to 20 years of age are massive changes. But then when you go from 30 to 40 to 50, there's not much going on and you feel pretty the same. But then once you hit 70 from 70 to 80, I mean, that's significant, you know? And then from 80 to 90, that is a whole different trip here. So you have to be prepared for that. And at this stage, how do you prepare for aging gracefully, right? But I think there is a unique challenge to our generation, right? Because we are, I mean, at least those of us who have the privilege of time and resources so you can connect this technology, you can connect with other people in conversations like this and elsewhere. And there is this question of responsibility, right? I mean, what's your take on how you make, how you leave a world behind for the next generation? And when I was working in Asia, I became very aware of my Chinese friends, the perspective of life, right? Seven generations backwards, seven generations forward. And that's just, I mean, that's just how they were thinking, right? I mean, it's a dishonor to dishonor your ancestors, right? Because if you do something that they build and you demolish it, then that's dishonor. Then conversely, your honors are your children, right? To move forward and help them to succeed and to be in good places. So there's this very strong sense of honor that used to be pretty profound in Western culture as well, but I think it sort of has moved on, right? I mean, I don't see that very often. And so that's unfortunate. But none of these things were in my awareness until I retired and then after I retired. And then it took some years to pull all that together, right? To where, what are you leaving behind? What's, it's a relay race now. So who are you handing this over? Yeah, and then you become aware of life itself, right? Because this is, we are embedded in a much bigger form of life that we have just not even taken notice of. And I was thinking the other day, in the Bible, it says we are the stewards, right? We're stewarding the land. Well, let's do it. Stewarding doesn't mean destroying it, right? I mean, if you have been given a gift that is this fantastic planet, this fantastic, amazing, beautiful life all around you and you become responsible for it simply because of the influence you have on it, right? Then that's demand stewardship. And right now we are really becoming very aware of this need to be stewards because if not, we're gonna die. That's simply spoken. So, yeah, so I am playing check in here. So I had sort of two tickles in previous shares in the invocation of our need to sacralize things. And the reason it gave me a tickle is because that's the problem. Like, that's how we got where we are in a stream sort of way. Being in reality with all senses and faculties present and accounted for, experientially ends up providing an enabling awareness of interconnection of us to everything around us and us to each other. And this thing on our shoulders that we were endowed with without a manual, without a governor has really been amazingly creative and inventive and abstracting us from being. And I think, and I've also learned something. So I'm gonna invoke the indigenous meme but with a qualification, so it avoids all these things about, you know, the indigenous weren't all good. Indigenous consciousness as manifested in the world today, it's difference from our consciousness in developed and Western cultures is they never lost connection to themselves internally in terms of the physical body, the emotional body, the energetic body, the mental body and the spiritual body, all operating, all connected and flowing in relation to each other and their connection to the volume around them and to their environment and to the world they're living in. Western culture and Western civilization has really been amazingly effective at alienating our human beingness from our existence. So I would posit that it's not about sacralizing the earth, which is creating yet, making the earth yet another golden idol. Sacralizing is rooted in the word sacred and the word sacred is connected with God or dedicated to a religious purpose. Religions or constructions that separated us, Western religions, Abrahamic traditions especially separated us from nature and natural world. And Klaus, you referenced stewardship and stewardship was the fundamental tenant at the heart of Western religions that declared the natural world wild and untamed, needing to be subjugated to our will. When they alluded to stewardship, it was always in the context of imposing our will in order on the natural. So just as a counterpoint, maybe it's simpler and more fundamental and basic about getting reconnected and in touch with our own faculties, capacities, natures and our connection to each other and our connection to that world. Because if I'm connected to you or I'm connected to my planet, I'm not gonna burn it. I'm not gonna drill holes in it. I'm not gonna destroy it. I'm not gonna kill you. I'm not gonna be in adversity to you or anything or anybody else. And with that, I'm complete. Not everybody has checked in yet. So if you'd like to, please raise your Zoom hand and step in. Otherwise I'll wait a little while and then we'll go into general discussion. There's no mandate to check in. So you can pass if you like. So what would anybody like to talk about that came up? We seem to have dwelt a lot on our mortality and our relationships to one another and to stuff into the planet. We started with what the hell is gonna convince people to care about climate change and all those sorts of things. We went all over the place. What would we like to focus on? I like the suggestion of spending at least another three minutes on Apple's big announcement and the world's reaction to it. And perhaps looking 10 years hence. So we have 15 minutes left in our call time. Shall we spend it on Apple's Vision Pro announcement? And sort of what version five might lead us to. People first in electronic LSD and... Right, Gil? It's intriguing, Mike, but it's a very different mood than what Jerry just offered. And I'm wondering how to connect those. So can we look at the Apple Vision Pro in the context of what Jerry just rift about what we've been talking about? Or is there a way that Vision Pro can serve the thoughts that have been arising in the last 45 minutes? But I'm happy to go Jerry's direction. We'll be talking about Vision Pro for weeks to come and there'll be more intelligent analysis, I think. We talked a bunch about... I do want to lose the mood of the last 45 minutes. Thank you. It's also been moderately intense going through. And we talked a bunch about Vision Pro Monday on the Free Jerry's Brain Call. That was mostly our topic. I think it was then because it was so fresh, sort of hot off the presses right then. Anyway, Doug, you raised the topic. And I think you could manage, you could finesse the topic in the way that we're wondering about. So please go ahead. Well, I'm thinking that Vision Pro actually implies the death of the self. So I think the two issues are quite connected. In Vision Pro, you never know quite what's what, whether you're in an environment that you control or it's being controlled. And it trivializes the presence of the person. That's my experience. Anyone have one or touched one? No. So it was only demoed in a specially built tent near the Apple campus to people invited in for a half hour at a time. No pictures, no video. The thing is not finished yet. It won't be shipping until the spring of next year or early next year. So there's none in the wild, none available for purchase. One way I pointed out that Tim Cook or nobody else actually wore one during the presentation. There reminds me of a joke. Oh, good, perfect. So Bill Gates dies a little unexpectedly. He gets to heaven and say, he goes, oh, Bill, I wasn't expecting you. I'm gonna look at your file. Oh, Bill, you know, you're a tough case because you did a lot of good stuff but you also gave us Windows 95, you know? So tell you what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna give you a tour up here and then I'll give you a tour of hell and you can choose where you wanna go. So it shows around heaven and it's all very silvery and quiet and cloudy and people playing harps and very sedate, you know, and he says, okay, let's see hell. He takes them in the elevator down to hell and there's this party going on. There's music and dancing and feasting and of course there's fornication and you know, all the stuff you'd expect in hell and Bill says, well, if it's all the same to you, I'll stay here. So Peter says, St. Peter says, so hi. You know, a few months later, St. Peter's got a slow day. So he says, I think I'll go visit my friend Bill in hell and he gets off the elevator and there's Bill Gates chained to a pillar of fire where the heartbeat eating his liver out over and over and he goes, St. Peter, this is terrible. This isn't at all what you showed me. What happened? And St. Peter says, Bill, Bill, it was a demo. Sorry. I remember the joke, I am fond of that joke. That was the demo. So that's kind of the vision pro. It's a demo right now. It's all, it's not, it's vaporware. It's, I can't believe they announced a product that's not available for a year, you know, like, come on. Klaus then Mark. Yeah. I see this as part of the entire AI discussion, you know, because we are constructing a vision of reality that may not be what is reality. And so the more these things diverge, the less able we are to continue building a functioning sustainable into the future society. And I think that's where the intentions of building this kind of technology are not clear. Is it for entertainment? Or is it for really seriously engaging on a deeper level with the world around us? And because, I mean, for example, there were some games coming online even 10, 20 years ago where you could build a city, right? You could, you could plan the city and see how it functions. And the software was smart enough to tell you that if you forgot to put in a water purification plan, your city wouldn't function well, right? So there was, you could play what if games and so on and so on. So this could be, you know, a much more sophisticated, more advanced version that helps you constructs an understanding of the world around you to make better decisions and to have a far more sophisticated understanding of how to, where to engage. I just don't see that happening. You know, that's the concern. So it's not the tool, it's how it's being used and how it's being developed. Apropos, nothing is real really quick before markers. So the thing has 12 cameras plus LiDAR. Like it's insane how many cameras are on the headset. And it gives the appearance that you're just looking around seeing your room as you look around. And it gives people standing next to you the appearance that they're looking at you because strangely, this like really odd, it has a display on the outside that then has a simulation of your eyes, including I think if you blink or gesture or whatever else, it is recreating what you look like from a scan of your face taken when you basically log in and make the device yours. You have to personalize the device at first because this device solves an insane number of very difficult biomechanical technological puzzles about where your eyes are on your head, how you see out, how do I, and all these cameras are recording everything and then projecting them into two little 4K displays that show up right in one in front of each eye and mirror the world. And it has to do so with such precision that you won't get nauseous. And latency and sort of refraction errors and stuff like that cause nausea and all sorts of bad problems. So they've done miracle magic work to solve insanely difficult things to separate and recreate reality in a way that really troubles me in a way that you were just saying Klaus. Because you're looking around and it's busy recreating your whole environment. These are not transparent in any way goggles that you couldn't see. If they're off, you can't see through them. There's no way to see through them. But it looks like somebody's seeing your eyes through them and you think you're seeing the room around you. It's all recreated. It's all on screens. It's all mediated. It's cray-cray. And that's just one little angle on it. Sorry, Mark, go ahead. Had to throw it in. On the call we had talking about it. I was wondering how many cameras and Pete, of course, did the quick look up. And he says like 12 cameras. And I was like, does that count the lidar? And he's like, nope, so 13. Over to you. I mentioned David Bellertner's 1993 book Mirror Worlds in this context. And to sort of bridge the meaning and VR AR threads because basically what he did in Mirror Worlds was talk about how, well, imagine the metadata of reality being laid plain and visible. And indeed, I think he does in fact talk about that in an AR kind of context. And so maybe that's one of the big wins of AR in particular is imagine being able to drill down into the things around us informationally or see the context of the things around us and then be able to collaborate about those things and have an impact on new, fresh ways to have impact and understand what's going on in the world around us through AR over. Thanks, Sean. Mark Van Gill. Sean and I collided. Yes. So yeah, I was thinking about Mirror Worlds as well. Oh, wow. Posted in the chat right there. Review of it from 1991. So it's a 91 book, not 93, but anyway, the difference between fantasy and reality. I've read a ink.com emotional intelligence series and the three words back to reality was really interesting in terms of, for me, psychological health, basically thinking what's important to pay attention to. And sacred for meanings of which is most important. And Sanity, that's pretty up there. You're supposed to pull it up. I remember reading Post High School, William Gibson's book. Oh gosh, what was his first book again? Neuromancer. Neuromancer, yes. And one of the Rostas in Neerspace L5, moving people around, he took a look into the cyberverse, cyberspace and he took off the goggles and he was asked, what did you see? He goes, Babylon. Babylon. Babylon. You know, when we create fantasies to escape reality and that includes a lot of news, unfortunately, these days, boy, can we lose track of the sacred and just to let Gil go, I'll stop there. Thanks, Mark. Ken, I'm wondering if you need a second for a poem, should you have possibly got one with? Got some Q'd up, Gil. Go ahead. On the off chance that Ken has a poem. Yeah, let me try to be brief. So fantasy versus reality, both have their place. Fantasy is really important to humans. The blurring of them, the confusion between them is where it gets iffy. Back on the Vision Pro and everything else we've been talking about, I think about this, I keep going to biology and ecology. And at a very fundamental level, I'm concerned about having bright lights being pointed directly into my eyes and the effect on endocrine system of that. And I don't think anybody knows what that's going to do. You know, we all know about, you know, being on your phone late at night, affecting your sleep. There's a whole biological, hormonal system going on there. So there's that. But more to the point. A lot of this is about being rooted in the living world. And if I'm experiencing everything through these double four K screens in my eyes, what happens to sense of touch and smell? What happened? I'm Jerry, go back to, was it you talked about your friend's daughter who was in Paris and never got out and never saw the milky. Yeah, never saw the milky way. Now, look, you know, vision pro can do great shit with the milky way. One of the transformative experiences of my life was seeing powers of 10 film when I was like 22, 23 years old. Or you've seen this cosmic zoom, maybe like flying through universe at vast scales, which vision pro could probably do remarkable things with. And Klaus, to your world, it could take me into soil life in a way that nothing else could. On the other hand, it can leave me completely ungrounded in the living world. And Ken, I've talked about this a bit. I wonder about how people can be grounded when more than half of us live in cities and never touch the ground, never have bare feet on the ground, never lie down on the earth. And so vision pro takes us to a very different kind of world than the world of physical body and physical world. And I have, you know, like with everything else going on, deep fascination and deep concern about that. Last thing on that, we talked about AI early on and somebody I saw came across from someone who said, no, AIs aren't going to take your job. Humans using AIs are going to take your job. Which says to us, I think, how are we going to dance with these new technologies to serve? Where is it here? Back in my notes, Jerry's, Jerry's, you know, Jerry's written statement there about the better verses and fubars and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah. It's so easy to remember too. How does this stuff serve that stuff? Thanks, Gail. Thanks to everybody. So returning once again to the amazing, the fantastic poet Vistava Zimborska. This is a poem called, I'm working on the world. I'm working on the world. A revised, improved edition featuring fun for fools, blues for brooders, combs for bald pates, tricks for old dogs. Here's one chapter, the speech of animals and plants. Each species comes, of course, with its own dictionary. Even a simple, hi there, when traded with a fish, makes both you and the fish feel quite extraordinary. The long suspected meanings of rustlings, chirps and growls, soliloquies of forests, the epic hoots of owls, those crafty hedgehogs drafting aphorisms after dark, while we blindly believe that they're sleeping in the park. Time, chapter two, retains its sacred right to metal in each earthly affair. Still, time's unbounded power that makes a mountain crumble, moves seas, rotates a star, won't be enough to tear lovers apart. They are too naked, too embraced, too much like timid sparrows. All the ages in my book, it's the price that felons pay. Don't whine that it's steep. You'll stay young if you're good. Suffering, chapter three, doesn't insult the body. Death, it comes in your sleep, exactly as it should. When it comes, you'll be there dreaming that you don't need to breathe. That breathless silence is the music of the dark, and it's part of the rhythm to vanish like a spark. Only a death like that, a rose, could prick you harder, I suppose. You'd feel more terror at the sound of petals falling to the ground. Only a world like that, to die just that much, and to live just so. All the rest is box-fugue, box-fugue played for the time being on a saw. Nice to see you, folks. I am. Till next week. Thank you, Ken. Sitting finished. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Briefly before we hang up, I mentioned in the email invite yesterday about this call that we might do five-minute universities, and I was thinking of doing those next week, but also I had mentioned, I think last week, that Mark had brought up the question of indigenous wisdom, which would make a great topic for a call. So I'm torn between the two, and if you want to pipe in on either of them, maybe on the Mattermost channel for the OGM town square would be a good place for that. So I'm going to do five-minute universities. I'd love to know who's going to volunteer to do them, et cetera, et cetera. Keel, go ahead. Gary, is there a five-minute university website? There is no such thing yet. There should be. Do you own the domain yet? There could be. And I don't think I bought one for that. Right now. Okay. I'll probably have to buy some variant of it. I'm sure there's something out there of that nature. Mark, go ahead. Could you introduce five-minute universities for? Yes. So many years ago, I thought, gosh, and this is, I think before Ted existed at one of the retreats, I was like, gosh, there'd be a cool format. There's a lot. You realize that there's a whole bunch of knowledge that most of us hold, that we don't get a chance to share out very much. And there's stuff that we sort of are passionate about, and it might be how to brew a really, really good tea, and what is the history of tea or why, what's the difference between green tea and matcha and what? Or it could be a DSRP, which Scott Moreing was telling me about, which is a way to look at, to do systems analysis of the world, and that's one of the five-minute universities I'm thinking about. So the format is we give somebody exactly five minutes. We put up a timer so that it's not going to go long. They've got to compress whatever it is they want to share with us for five minutes, and then we do five minutes of Q&A afterward. And I've done a couple of them. Unfortunately, the ones I put on YouTube, like the first one, which is one of my favorite books, The Great Transformation, it's an eight-minute university. Alas. But if we can compress the five minutes, that'd be really useful. That's the format. But it's kind of something you're passionate about, really want to share. It's a nugget of wisdom, and we know that it's not going to take an hour. It's not even going to be like an 18-minute TED talk. It's just going to be five minutes, and then we'll get five minutes of Q&A, and if you're deeply interested, you know to talk to that person again afterward. Sorry. Slides are allowed or encouraged or not? Slides, if you want to, because we're here in Zoom, and slide sharing is easy, and it might communicate more stuff. So yes. There's also the Pecha Kucha format, which is, that's even more rigorous. Exactly. I don't see the domain being taken. Father Guido Sarducci pioneered the concept. Yes. Forbes had an article about it. There's an Apple podcast. But the domain seems to be free. There's a five spelled out, spelled out five a minute university. I'm going faster. I'm not as fast as Pete. Okay. Cool. I will go find one and put it up. Awesome. Thanks everybody. Really appreciate it.