 Hi, I guess it's a post-luncher Trying hard to stay awake a lot of people here. So quickly coming. I think because we're running short of time Just don't want to waste too much time around this without a jump straight to the topic. It's worth making of a challenger brand right and Trying to define I think for the last hour We were all sitting together and trying to define what exactly a challenger brand is and what are they doing? So literally the answer lies in that statement. So what are they doing? They're actually challenging. They're challenging everything from status quo They're challenging product categories. They're challenging customer experiences. So we have with us The entire panel of people who are actually running a bunch of challenger brands in itself, right? They are challenging my all these things that we were talking about. I'm gonna let them Kind of give you an intro into what they do Largely also to get a perspective. I'll start off with maybe if you guys could introduce yourself and Give your take on what you consider a good challenging brand or a good challenger brand or something and why is it so? Hi guys, good afternoon. My name is Anupam Boke and I run a brand called 2YM With RPS and Jimmy Goenker group. I am the chief marketing officer Well, 2YM is one of the challenger brands. Let's start it that way, but I think the Within the question is I think there is an intent to check whether a Large brand can also be a challenger brand. So I think a challenger brand is I define somebody who? challenges establish conventions for example, if it's a Payment online Paytm could be a challenger brand and it's possibly very large PayPal at one stage was a challenger brand if you're a car rental company. I miss is a challenger brand So I think wherever you are trying to change conventions and do something different Then I think the brand can dawn so there is not one brand which you can consider as you know an idol of Challenger mentality, but I think all the examples that I'm sharing Depending on what genre they are addressing which category they play they found a need gap or an Aspect which can be differentially delivered as a solution and they all took that challenge of stance So I think there are several Some of them I mentioned and I think these this is my list of challenger brands. We can discuss more when we go forward Hi, I'm Saurabh. I am founder of no broker No broker is a real estate platform that connects owners tenants buyers sellers Directly without any broker without any brokerage. I don't know if any of you know how much brokerage is paid in India Any any guess? No, no in terms of amount How many crores of or how many? Billion of millions of brokerage is paid every year 5000 crores 10,000 It's it's 19 billion dollars. It's one lakh 40,000 crores Every year one lakh 40,000 crores is paid as brokerage by all of us And I think no broker started from there. I I was living in Bombay and I paid a brokerage of 80,000 and it really hurt and and the broker came back again next year saying That is a tipping point and so no broker started in 2014. It's been six years We are present in six cities Mumbai, Bangalore, Pune, Chennai, Hyderabad, Delhi and CR Every year we do transaction worth 10,000 crores now We are saving 1200 crores in brokerage every year now Still we're just scratching the surface because the total amount is much much larger We have raised 850 crores in funding as of date Talking about the challenger brand. I think no broker of course is a is a big challenger brand because you're trying to disrupt The brokers who have been there and disrupt other players who are working with brokers But to my mind, I think one very strong Example which I always think and which has been some kind of inspiration when we started no broker is is a Company called craigslist. I don't know if many of you have heard about it It's a it's a classified in in the US and now they operate in actually 70 countries started in 99 as an email list and they started disrupting the classified which comes in in the newspaper So newspaper classified had thousands of people on ground that they were doing some revenue Craigslist has 50 employees. It does one billion dollar in revenue every year Per person per employee revenue highest in the world They've almost zero marketing expense because they realize that I think there's a simple customer pain point I don't want to look at a newspaper when everything every information is available online And one billion revenue and I believe their profit is some 700 million dollars So I really think that's a very very strong challenger brand My name is Wignesh and I'm the founder of the news minute We'd like to see ourselves as a very progressive digital only platform which focuses on the news space and our speciality is we focus only on the southern states Just focusing on the media sector, you know I see that a lot of independent websites are there which I consider as challenging brands to the legacy You know newspapers and publications which you know like the Times of India's and the NDTV's You know of the country we've always been used to Media outlets which are legacy-backed, you know Extending over many many years of you know their foundations From our perspective what we've done differently is we knew from the very beginning that we would never be able to a Defeat or disrupt times of India or an NDTV, but we always knew that we could challenge them in our own little way Okay So what we did is we started focusing on the news space which operated over the five southern states I mean when we started was four, but right now it's five And how we've done that is basically we've we've understood that you know a lot of the media narrative in the country is focused on What happens in Delhi and what happens in Bombay? There were a lot of very good stories which came out of the south especially, you know from a Hyperlopical perspective or even the tier one and tier two cities down in South which are never making it to do the national You know news Agendas in the last six years. I think that we've challenged that Cautioned very much and we've been able to bring South India from a news perspective on to the national, you know legacy brands Thank you. Hi. I'm Sai and I run marketing for Pesa Bazaar policy was our group so I think a very fortunate to be running the Quintet as you call the quintessential challenger brands because financial services largely was Actually largely was called as the push category where Either an agent would come and sell you an insurance or you know, you have to go to your nearest bank to get a loan And that that entire myth was a challenge and that status quo was challenged by By a category where you know from being a push category we became a pool category where you know Consumers started coming to us coming to the platform and started comparing and also we start One of the things that we started doing was we started even questioning the consumers We also challenge the consumers of the way they were buying So I'll also questioning the the status of moving the status quo of the consumer of changing this Mindset of the consumer of you know where they were buying so So I think that was These were two examples which I could think of that from from our own category that we could say that of the challenger brand having said that this Challenger brand is again as we were discussing today in the panel is not really Even a market leader can also be a Be a challenger brand. So So yeah, pretty much that Thank you, and after everyone I'm Siddharth. I work with AirAsia India It's a joint venture in the aviation space between Tata Sun's private limited in the AirAsia group AirAsia is actually a consortium of eight independent airlines operating in different countries When it comes to challenger brands and we were speaking about this a bit earlier I tend to agree with the point that a market leader can also be a challenger and essentially anybody who's entered the market at some point of time Potentially starts off as a challenger Even if you take controversial examples who are no longer challengers But the likes of a Google for instance or an Apple when they started off they were challengers If you look closer to when the gig economy started or even the likes of other disruptors in spaces where they have Essentially moved away from all models Taking the space of where an aggregator used to play Similarly in financial services to try I would argue that for instance a BNB is a challenger brand and If you look at other sectors entirely To the the sectors that come to mind particularly there is there's in financial services are an organization called transfer wise Which has challenged the status quo of transferring money across borders. It's a UK based company Which now has backing from Richard Branson Where you can transfer money across borders without any transaction fees that the banks typically charge and In the alcohol space for instance, there's a company called Brew Dog which is a punk IPA brand they make ills and They have challenged in many ways The foundation of what it stands to be beer they produce some of the strongest beers in the world going up to more than 50% alcohol content which is actually higher than whiskey and challenging the regulators in the model in which they're operating and to an extent in India there are organizations like Beta which have really challenged the market leaders in the way in which they're operating and gained a popularity So I would argue that those are sort of some of the brands and models. There are challenger brands today Thanks, sir. That's a lot of challengers sitting here with their perspectives on things It's interesting because everybody seems to have a point on what they see differently as a challenger, right? So there's somebody says you're actually saying market leader can also be a challenger, etc So if we had to put on a Challenger hat or if you had to build a challenger hat, what are the attributes? Do you what attributes do you see? That you need to have in them like one one attribute That's very important to build a challenger hat that I need to wear There are several but I think I will focus on how do you describe your target audience? and How do you? Describe your attitude Let me put it this way target audience. I in fact When you actually a challenger brand you can't go very large very wide So it is very important that you define your target audience very very clearly And maybe rather than other examples. I can share our own examples coming from two yam So we define our target audience as guilty snackers By the way Two yam Is a healthy snacking brand? We are baked and not fried and just to give you a context 95% of the snacking Options available today in the country are fried So every young consumer who is conscious about their health either they eat snacks in moderation Or they balance it off by saying chalo abhi khalate badmai I'll go for a walk or I'll go to the gym or I'll run it out Or I'll have a smaller meal in the mealtime and that's how they always are Guilty very conscious and they try to moderate or compensate So if we actually define a TG as guilty snackers, then suddenly You know everything starts to fall into place If you take this as an insight then your communication actually addresses that the innovations or whatever products that you do Addresses that the claims that you will make will address that but also Where are these guilty snackers? What is relevant to them because they are somewhat health-conscious then? Sports as a genre interest them because it is about health and fitness travel And you know of course these are mostly young so humor music these are the platforms which actually interest them So suddenly the whole description starts to come together But if you were to say a mainstream brand in snacking like lays or say bingo, they will address everybody So it is very very generic and wide but when you describe your TG audience It becomes very very specific because there is a very high chance that when you talk to them The reaction and the engagement is much larger. So I think this is one key criteria that you define your TG very very clearly Second is and I'll just possibly talk about two second is agility. I mean you have to move very very fast Try fast fail fast is really a challenge of mindset because you are experimenting You know you might have a view you might have a thought that maybe this can work But it is not proven because you are disrupting the norms and disrupting the convention So you're always trying it may work. It may not work. And that's why the idea is to experiment fast Do it to a smaller scale perhaps and even if you fail the damage is not that much So I think defining a core TG very very clearly and having a very Nimble and agile way of operating Is the two that I would highlight? So I have a little different take on that. I think What is important in my view is to Understand the customer pain point which has not been addressed and and that TG might not be niche also For example in our case when we said okay people don't want to pay brokerage that TG is not niche That is a very very large TG. Actually, no one wants to pay brokerage, right? So but I think the pain point was huge because like I said one lakh forty thousand crores of Hard-earned money going to a broker who's saying sir. It's got phone number here. I'll give you a little bit. It's going to get me a notax.com also So I think that customer pain point is something which is very critical whenever you are thinking of a Challenger brand second again from our example. I think Resilience is very important because when you're disrupting something, they'll be going to be a side effect for that I think so I was just mentioning that he somebody spoke to told that once we started no broker Within a year some 50 brokers came and attacked our office and started ransacking that now for for almost three months after that We were working from makeshift office. We didn't have a desk. We were working on mattresses for almost two months But I think what was important was that the entire team believed in the vision that We have to remove brokerage the entire team came across much much stronger and I think one conviction that yes We're doing something right. That's why people are are you know reacting to it? So that resilience is also very important when you're disrupting something when you're challenging something Okay, I'll answer this answer this question by referring to a story that we probably heard when we were in school So it's about David and Goliath. So I worked both in the corporate sector as well as in the Startup sector. I've been an entrepreneur for the last six years So when I was in the start in the corporate sector, you know, everybody referred to David versus Goliath and Goliath is this big Giant and David is a small shepherd boy who happened to kill You know Goliath so every time in the meetings that we went everybody's referred to you know be the David You know go and disrupt you know defeat the Goliath and stuff like that when I became an entrepreneur I realized there was another side to that story and that that side was basically 99 times or to the hundred times that David fights Goliath Goliath always wins. They'll never tell you but Goliath always wins There's one time that you know David will win and then I started You know thinking to myself is that why the hell did David win? There were two things One is he used a slingshot It was his weapon of choice. It was something that he's understood It was something that he's used before and he's something which is comfortable with the second thing was he knew what? Goliath's weakness was Goliath couldn't move that fast If it was a level playing field and then Goliath and David had to fight with Swords David would have lost in any other matter. Well, however you play it out It is a highly possible that you know David loses So when I became an entrepreneur the two things that I wanted to focus on was What is my strength? What is my strong point? What is my slingshot and for me? That was the access to the South market that we had It was my team It was the ability to work in a very you know agile Environment as much as possible and the second thing was understand my way You know the competitor's weakness and that was very clear because you know the national narrative was not focused on the Southern space So these two things I think is something that if you can get out of your head in the beginning stages of when you start your career You know start your entrepreneurship Journey I think that plays a huge role in defining what kind of product you become at a later stage It was a fantastic anecdote kind of you know summarizes this pretty much But you know I don't know if it's an attribute but one thing I think it a challenge band should do is is kind of keep making the The leader brand uncomfortable So someone who keeps making the leader and uncomfortable or keeps keep nudging them or keep making makes him think that you know Oh, why didn't we do it and and of course when they kind of find out the or challenge a brand is done There's and they put more monies and kind of you know overtake them That's fine, but a challenge a brand is someone these are attributes which I think Are very very problem where you know they keep nudging the the leader brand to Why can't they kind of you know keep quiet for a while? So so an example which from from our side was which which made The financial services the banks and everyone think that why didn't we think about it or our competitors? Why didn't we think about it was? we're the marketplace for we're now the largest marketplace for Loans, but like six years back we weren't And the basic the model was very simple people used to come to a platform compare choose for the best loan and then that and that customer used to go to the bank two problems used to happen eight out of ten consumers never used to get a loan and The bank uses a yeah the same thing that eight of ten ten of your customers don't get a loan and the reason for both used to be low poor credit score and That's when and and and this problem was happening for a lot of marketplaces, but we came with an innovation that now How do we solve this so we brought in the entire? Credit score to our platform and we started running the largest credit score program in the country Where in if you have to take a credit score? From the civil or anyone else you have to pay 500 rupees, but on our platform. It's absolutely free So when a consumer comes to my platform a He takes a credit score and he at the moment he gets to know his if it's great So it's good then he gets we say that you know you have a very strong chance of approval So we did we solve two problems We saw the partner problem we saw the consumer problem and that and and also became a great customer acquisition strategy You know free credit score was there and and it and that the the education around the entire credit score was very weak in in India so if we solve the bank problem we solve this problem and and a Lot of people started thinking the same way and also started following this The pattern, but we were not leader at that point of time But we're pretty much large at this point, but we also now believe that Even even even if you're a leader, but you also always should have a mindset of a challenger So so so but I don't know if it's an attribute But you when you keep making a leader uncomfortable That's that's something that I think could be an attribute Yeah, I think there's a lot of grain of truth in in that thing of agility and making people uncomfortable and that In essence a lot of challenger brands and there is a distinction between challenger brands and disruptors But I'm clubbing it to an extent because the mindset is very similar It is a questioning attitude that you need to take to establish norms whether that be Regulation that be consumers and the way in which they operate I mean Sony when they came up with their Walkman at that time right nascent needs or things like that There are even in today's environment a lot of brands which are looking at things in a completely different way There is an organization for instance in In India, which is now a unicorn called Rivigo which is a trucking logistics company and what they essentially looked at is the core problem of Consumers large organizations and the truckers themselves one of the fundamental issues that trucking had and people were moving away From the profession of trucking Because there was a sense of pride that was not associated with with it You were traveling on the roads for four or five days never at home You know moving from place to place not with the family There was rampant prostitution. There was aids. There was alcohol problems, etc. All of that And they brought a very simple model from another industry like airlines, which is a hub and spoke model Which is to do a relay trucking So you sort of if you're going from Bombay you travel to 100 kilometers You pick up another truck and travel back to whatever the destination is We changed the entire perception and the speed and agility in the way in which the entire logistics operations were working It gets rid of the whole sort of road tax problems. This is pre GST, etc and a lot of It often seems with the challenger brand when you look at where they finally reach Why didn't somebody else think of that and that's what the challenger brand brings to the table is this constant need for questioning the status quo and Doing things differently and continuing to do that in very different ways I mean you move from that to then saying how can I leverage technology to do something very differently? How can I be more agile and the advantage that it has over over? Embedded brands is the speed at which they can operate because embedded brands will take longer to change the nature of their operations It's like a big tank Moving like like the David and Goliath analogy. I think and I think that's that's a fundamental attribute of a challenger brand Thanks. It's interesting because the number of times I heard the word agility across this entire panel It's definitely the most key attribute as people are talking about it So if you were to look at agility and because that words come up and you said David and Goliath I have this very interesting question because it's then when it comes to a challenge of mindset, right? We look at startups It's very easy to wear that Challenger mindset and turn around and say this because agility David and Goliath these words are what you associate with the startup But then when it comes to established big conglomerates, right? How does it work in that scenario? How do you wear a a challenger hat? And I think I'm you can answer this best because part of an RPG group. It's There it's as a startup. I know it's easier to wear this hat We can the fail fast syndrome works here. How do how do you work on the same syndrome here? I think the large corporates DNA Does prevent you from doing something very disruptive and by the way, it's not it's not wrong To be honest it is just the scale and size is so huge that getting it wrong Can have huge damages and losses and that's why I think there is a bit of checks and balances a bit of research Which needs to be validated before you actually take an initiative and I'm talking more from a unilever point of view But if there are areas where you feel that the risk is low But there is a real need to actually change convention then you can also do that I can share if by the way there are Challenger initiatives happening in every large organization as well, but maybe the entire organization doesn't behave that way and I can share an example Again more relevant because it's coming from my own experience. We used to work on a brand called pure it One of my purity members is here Both are in different organizations now and this was I it was a challenger by design because Good quality water purifiers were coming at at least five thousand six thousand rupees and then when pure it was launched It was launched at eighteen hundred rupees Without any constraints or piped water or electricity or what have you and I think that was a great innovation But suddenly, you know by the way every challenger can also find a new challenger in in the fullness of time or in due course And then this was a time when Tata switch was about to launch The poster child or poster celebrity was Ratan Tata himself and he came on saying that We want to disrupt this and we want to give a purifier at one thousand rupees and suddenly we were scared and So what do we do? So it was I think August of 2009 when this announcement was made So actually suddenly a Goliath like Unilever got into a very David or a challenger mode And we said oh we can't let this happen because it was certainly a demise for purity There was a purifier launching at half the price. So we got the team together We put a device at thousand rupees. It was called pure it compact by the way What a purifier has at least 20 30 40 molded components So it takes that much time to create molds design it, but everything was done. We actually Designed it with no time we created a pilot mold which could give you a few Lack pieces but not more than that and that was done The molding happened in a third ship, which we never used to run in the molding department And hence it was suddenly extra time and you know capacity created and the molding was done. We created a prototype just a Prototype design and we created five six of them. We did trade conferences and before the first pure it compact was manufactured 50,000 pure it compacts was sold so booked just by showing the prototype so August to 2009 when the When the announcement was made by Ratan Tata mid-Jan 2010 pure it compact was launched Tata switch launched in March and that's it It never got launched only so I think I mean just the scare of what can happen to you and whether we can actually Just transform and and apply the team look at innovative ways of creating that capacity in doing it was one such example So I think To one to answer your question. Yes, it's not very easy But there are pockets where this thing happened come to think of it even if you look at large brands and you know Brands which have got and categories that have got massive penetration You will have very Generic growth of the category coming to your to your brand, but if you want to have Discontinuous Lifts in your growth then you have to still wear the hat of a challenge of mindset. Is there a new way to address that need? Is there a faster way? Is that a more convenient way and actually when you actually start to say okay? How can I improve the solution to that particular need? Innovation will happen and you know then suddenly you are the biggest guy But you can still challenge what they establish norms and take your brand to the next level So I think this can happen in large companies as well It's it's interesting because as as you were talking it was just Realizing that the largest advantage that a challenger brand brings to the market is actually to the consumer and It really depends on what the purpose of the organization is in In what they want to achieve from from the perspective of what what your brand purpose is in essence and it goes back to that Had taught us for instance not looked at launching swatch I mean you really were always had the opportunity to do a Purit compact Unilever would never have done that till there's another challenger so a lot of large organizations are forced to innovate Because somebody comes up as a challenger and if your brand purpose for instance, and it depends how you define it Do you for example get into the market saying that I want to I want to sell the largest number of water purifiers or do you want to get into the The market and see I want to be able to create accessible Cheap water for a large swath of the population Irrespective of whether I am doing it or somebody else is doing it Can I disrupt the markets or that the brand purpose is getting fulfilled? I've worked on a couple of sort of projects within the Tata group myself, which I've had various different levels of success and failure One of my first projects which I worked on was was the nano right and that started off with the same kind of mindset Is is the purpose of saying you know, how do you ensure that people have a safe mode of transport Versus the two wheeler model, but it forced the entire industry in a way even though the nano in itself didn't end up selling because of a large number of other macroeconomic and Environmental and political etc issues or ginger hotels for instance You know when it was in a very entrepreneurial stage and now there are a number of other brands in that and I think that that is Something that the challenger brings To the table even if the challenger is a leader that ultimately the consumer benefits from and that is why It's very important for consumers to continue to be evangelists of challenger brands because they will benefit from that the most the likes of an Obroker, you know, ultimately it is the it is the consumer who's getting them the benefit of that because there's an economic surplus That a leader or a challenger who's come out of the market is exploiting So it's almost a democratization of that that a challenger is bringing to the table This is for you because considering you don't have any competition. So what I've seen is, you know Most of the time in in in the larger organization Especially like an HUL and all that I think it's because of the nagging of the second You know player and the third player that you know, you're forced to you know, where a challenger had so what do you do? So I think we're very interesting So we started as a platform to connect onus tenants by a service directly without a middleman But I think like I mentioned for us the most important thing was looking at the customer pain point and Once we started doing these closures We realized that you know apart from paying the brokerage customer had a lot of other pain points one was okay I found the house, but broker used to get my rent agreement done broker used to get my legal documentation Then they said okay So we started doing rent agreements. We started doing legal documentation then they said okay, that's fine But you know, I'm buying a home, but I need a home loan. I need a packer and move what I need interior services I need a you know multiple other things. So now no broker is our one-stop shop you can find all these things on the platform and Very recently almost less than a year back So we spoke a lot of consumers and we realized that there is a pain in paying rent also There's a lot of friction in that people said okay after every month go on to the Website a lot of times it's cash and you know stuff like that So we we launched a platform called no broker pay you can go you can put your owners details You can put your details you can pay through any means you can pay through credit card You can pay through UPI and it's less than a year every month more than 500 crores is paid on as rent on no broker platform Through that means so I think My biggest thing is that keep listening to what the customer is saying keep listening to his pain points and keep on Innovating otherwise if we don't do that somebody else will do it So if you keep listening to customers and we need to keep improving that everybody's talking about pointing to be a challenger Right now if you look at it at some point does the challenger brand itself become a crowded market no like I can ask you this question stuff because Coming from aviation. I think every brand in this in the aviation segment right now is acting as a challenger brand So there was there were Airlines and then somebody challenged it and said let's make a low-cost airline now Somebody's come back as Vistara saying that let's come back with the old airline King Fisher tried the oh Let's disrupt it and challenge the stylish out of line So if everybody is trying to challenge do it does this become a stagnated space I what where are you at right now when it comes to how do you disrupt this market? I Think it does I think if everybody becomes essentially somebody comes in and challenges the market norms and then the entire market moves in that direction Because it sees that there's a differentiating opportunity over there But if everybody is differentiating on the same space which for example is where the aviation industry right now is in India, right? Everybody came in and is differentiating on cost and the consumer mindset therefore becomes that I need to purchase on the basis of price That is not a margin enhancing game And therefore it is imperative upon somebody else to come and bring a value proposition to the market that is That a consumer is willing to pay a premium for and That I think is the crux of what a challenger Brand needs to be able to do because it's easy to challenge a status quo if you you're challenging it without making a profit But how do you sustain yourself as an organization over a period of time? I mean Uber has done that with the geek economy. It's very challenging etc But it's not profit-making if you look at a large number of players in the online space E-commerce space across the world the largest companies in the world challenge our mindsets But they're not profit-making. Can you be a challenger and sustain over an extended period of time? That is where it you you're a true challenger because it's easy. I mean the telecom industry has had enough challenges in the market but What is it achieved either for the consumer or or you know in the largest space for the organizations themselves I Think adding to his point for example a hotel industry, which I can think of you know So people try to do multiple things like you mentioned ginger was there or across the world They were there were hotels and they were affordable hotels But I think what Airbnb did it just Spinned the entire thing into a totally different kind of a proposition Which was very appealing to the customers because they wanted that authentic experience They didn't want it to be the same You know same thing everywhere. They're going and at the same time for the owners who had that extra capacity Became a great business model So in a in a space like hotels where everybody was trying to do something very very similar Airbnb just pinned it into something totally different Keeping this so when we were doing this talk, right? So it's looking at the research and I was kind of looking up challenger brands because everybody is certainly Speaking about challenge of and these are not brands that were born yesterday. It's it's probably 2014 2012 and they are coming into the limelight today And when you look at what has brought them out so there's disruption a one of the key disruption has been say for example for consumer goods It's primarily been distribution right so older bigger companies own the distribution pipeline today That got disrupted with e-commerce multiple new challenger brands existed there marketing became a whole point Social media like when that came in a lot of people started using social to build their brands They said that hey, this is Suddenly I have access to social capital, which is free of cost etc today. We are sitting at a time where Nothing is free even social media is not free anymore. So the organic reach has died There is so there is still the need for the newer brands to come in to apply a Frugal strategy at some point a media strategy of sorts So do do you guys I mean because you guys were all built brands in that in the Challenger aspect of things do you see where How you can counter this like maybe you could help with this because the organic reach say for example on Facebook is Close to nil How do you today disrupt or challenge the new age other media brands? We obviously realized from the beginning that distribution was going to be a problem when we started out Facebook was very kind our Engagement and reach on Facebook was it was really really good and over the period of you know years They've made some algorithm changes and you know then after that like you said in 2020 right now If you don't pay any kind of money or your content will never be discovered Google on the other hand is a lot more better. I don't know Facebook Google people and all I hear So anyway, so they have an organic platform called discovery, which is on your basically on any kind of chrome chrome You know I mean not not not but the chrome browser on your phone So if you scroll down you'll you'll see a bunch of content suggestions and stuff like that So how do you get on to that platform that you can only get on to that and then you can only make sure that your organic reach Is high if your content is unique I've always believed that content is king luckily for us lot of the National publishers are still not focusing on the southern markets, you know When is the last time you got to know of a big political development in Tamil Nadu or a Karnataka? I'm asking you guys over here After Jailalitha died. I don't think there's been a lot of coverage on what's happening in Karnataka politics in Tamil Nadu politics or even Kerala politics Just to give any example in 2015 when Chennai was under floods and it was a very you know Dastic situation that you know the people in Chennai were facing, you know flood You know floods when I say floods, you know like water was breaching the first story and the second story of you know People's houses it took three days for the national narrative to actually come and reach Chennai and then do a ground story For us, it's always been stick true to the values of journalism that we believe in a ground story does travel a lot more than Somebody sitting out of Delhi and Bombay and reporting on the same kind of story Cultural sensitivity has worked big time for us. We understand the people that we are reporting on We understand the issues that we are reporting on a lot better than people sitting away from the where the issue is when you stick to these things and then you know you're able to Put out content on a regular manner, you know, you can't just come and put one story today And then you know forget about it. I think it will travel by itself and we've been Blessed with getting a lot more distribution happened, you know through that way and we're not totally and you know reliant on social media anymore my just two cents on this is For any internet company we follow this very simple rule of reducing dependency on Google and Facebook and build your brand build direct traffic acquire consumers and do CRM very strongly so over a period of time we we have a rule of you know 60 40 the day your direct traffic become 60 percent You're like making into real serious business because that's that's so that direct traffic is Equal to in the fmcg world is equal to a tomah So so the more you build brand the more direct traffic increases for internet business and that 60 40 rule kind of we follow and build brand do CRM and Reduce dependency on paid that kind of that would kind of work for us Well, I think you can oh, okay. Yeah, sure So I think also unique to your business. You have to think of What I think is sugar. I think that's something a challenger brand or a discipline So has to has to think of in our case. We realize that very early that Supply comes first. So you need to bring owners and sellers first. It's easier to bring buyers and tenants But how do we bring these guys? These are guys who are 40 plus who are not online Who are not searching on Google Facebook? I don't know So what we did was that when we were you know when we were very very small We used to go and click these pictures because all of the owners and sellers put a For sale or to let board outside the house with their numbers saying no brokers, please So we started clicking these pictures come back to our office call these guys and get the properties listed When we started growing up we thought that we have to do something about this because the last number of property So what we did was that we opened our app that anybody who sees these To let board or for sale board can actually click that picture upload on our app and it comes to our call center through an OCR and They call the owner list the property that is listed hundred rupees in the Paytm account So now as of today We get almost 30,000 such properties every month. There are people who have Who are students every day to take out their bike click 20 pictures get the pocket money There are people who are delivery boys have quit their job for doing this full-time. So at a very very low cost I'm able to bring that because a similar Cost of bringing it otherwise on other platforms people have paid more than thousand rupees and I will get it in hundred rupees So I think some kind of Disruptive thinking some kind of sugar. I think that is also required to make sure that your marketing cost is low Can I just one I think it's this is coming from FMCG? So I think and there are various ways you can leverage the assets that you invested and And just just focus on what assets you want to create And where you want to make the investment and whether those assets can be leveraged to really create awareness and reach Again coming from our example. So like Virat Kohli Has a cumulative fan following across social platforms of 85 million and he's your brand endorser. What would you do? So then you don't really have to invest in buying social space. You have to really create content where Which interests his 85 million followers and suddenly and I when Virat was getting married and a lot of talk was going on That's the time when we seeded to him as a brand and we created some Communication which was more Teaser based and then a solution based and you know in three days we got some 30 million views It was more than the views that his wedding got So it's like just create Content which is disruptive which is again breaking the corner. How can you expect Virat to really eat snacks? You know he's such a fitness icon, but actually he has been seen munching on Chips and what is his newfound love when he's getting married and actually just seed that content 85 million followers are following three days 30 million one of the most viewed content as the top 10 contents brand equity and all publishes on a monthly basis And that's where you go. So either you are able to create momentum by yourself or leverage something as a property Which actually has momentum IPL is one such big event So you can do something around it disruptively and the followers of that we'll have it Coombe was another event where suddenly, you know, you have something like 15 crore Visitors to Coombe every year and actually we created something called the world's largest oil lamp is again is record But because you know creating something disruptive caught the attention and we got free publicity So I think PR as a pillar is something which can be used very well invest and then leverage through the fan following that is there and I think you can bypass some of the Social media costs to achieve it Thanks. Well, I think we've run out of time I had one last question which I actually wanted to ask because that's been our biggest debate So the last one are that we were talking about but maybe I'll ask the question here You guys can think about it if you want to find some time outside because you would gather this the question was Can a market leader be a challenger? So we were debating about it saying so you you talked about how Apple was a challenger brand at one point But Apple was and then one plus became a challenger brand and then one plus became a leader and Xiaomi became a challenger brand So can a market leader continue to be a challenger or? Or can a challenger only be number two number three number four who's always probably working harder? That was the question. I don't know if you have time though. That would be the last one Yeah Oh, yeah, I think we can take a couple of answers. Can you yeah? Yeah, we can yes Now that you asked the question we should take a couple of answers Anybody asked you I think a market leader can be a challenger. I mean the two examples for that which I talked about Craigslist I think it's bigger than anybody else in terms of classified space. It's it's it's it's a market leader But still a challenger Airbnb again, I think, you know very very large still doing things very differently than What other people are doing so in again? I think it's the problem which you're solving It's the it's the it's the mind space which you're Addressing that is what defines a challenger not the market share probably My perspective when Apple became the leader I think this was when when they launched iPhone iPhone 5 around that time for five and six or whatever So if you look at the sick iPhone 6 7 and 8 and all that had that button over there That was the time when all the other challenger brands came with full screen displays It took you know, I think four or five years before they actually realized that oh, you know Maybe we should make a phone without a you know push button and then keep the entire display I think that's where they failed in being a challenger You know when you knew that the market it was inching towards something else They didn't read the customer properly they didn't realize and that's when they started losing out on a lot of market share I mean now I think they're back to number one But I think it's high time that every single leader brand Especially being nudged when they're nudged by the smaller brands that they take it a lot more important Make sure that you know they become challenges in themselves stagnation is probably the You know end point of anything brand career You know any kind of innovation? Thank you